Of the
connection between addiction and pleasure, Scruton writes:
Addiction arises when the subject has full control over a pleasure and can produce it at will. It is primarily a matter of sensory pleasure, and involves a kind of short-circuiting of the pleasure network. Addiction is characterized by loss of the emotional dynamic that would otherwise govern an outward-directed, cognitively creative life. Sex addiction is no different in this respect from drug addiction; and it wars against true sexual interest – interest in the other, the individual object of desire. Why go to all the trouble of mutual recognition and shared arousal, when this short cut is available to the same sensory goal? (p. 186)
On an
Aristotelian-Thomistic natural law analysis, pleasure exists in us largely to
bond us to other human beings. This is
clear enough where sex is concerned, but it is even true to a large extent
where the pleasures of food and drink are concerned. In human beings, food and drink are typically
(even if not always) taken in the context of a meal, which is a social event
which reinforces bonds of family and friendship. Addiction where sex, food, and drink are
concerned is in large part a result of separating the pleasure associated with
these things from the social context and making of it a kind of private
entertainment, where it can be sought and gratified in a way that bears no
connection to others. In an
essay from a few years ago, I discuss in more detail the way that
sexual addictions in this way lock one into patterns of feeling and action that
erode the capacity for healthy romantic relationships.
As rational
animals, we can also understand the
ends for which pleasures exist, and follow rules (of morality, etiquette, and
the like) that facilitate the realization of these ends. Because the desire for pleasure is strong in
us when we are young but reason is also weaker in us at that time, we initially
have to become habituated to these rules by way of parental instruction and
social pressure. When such social norms
are weak, and where pleasure is misunderstood as something purely bodily and
animal without any essential connection to our social and rational nature – and
both these circumstances obtain today – then the pursuit of pleasure is bound
to become disordered, and addictions of various kinds more widespread.
Of some
other ways in which pleasure-seeking can escape from reason’s governance and
thereby become addictive, Scruton writes:
So too is there stimulus addiction – the hunger to be
shocked, gripped, stirred in whatever way might take us straight to the goal of
excitement – which arises from the decoupling of sensory interest from rational
thought… Addiction, as the psychologists point out, is a function of easy
rewards. The addict is someone who
presses again and again on the pleasure switch, whose pleasures by-pass thought
and judgement to settle in the realm of need.
(pp. 186-87)
This is a
fair description of much of the discourse that prevails in social media, which
is typically of very low intellectual quality and reflects what I
have elsewhere called “associationist” rather than rational thought
processes. That is to say, in their
online interactions, people tend to respond to other people, events, and ideas
on the basis of sub-rational associations – emotional triggers, causal or
historical connections, partisan affiliations, and so on – which do not
necessarily correspond to any strict logical
connections.
For example,
if someone from a political party you oppose makes a claim or argument, you
might be inclined immediately to dismiss it, even if the claim or argument has
no essential connection to the specific things you find disagreeable about that
party, and even if you would have taken it more seriously had someone else said
it. Or if someone from a political party
you support makes a claim or gives an argument, you might be inclined
immediately to sympathize with and defend it, even if it conflicts with the
principles for which you initially supported that party. In the first case, a negative sub-rational
association leads you to be more hostile to an idea than you are rationally
warranted in being; and in the second case, a positive sub-rational association
leads you to be more friendly to an idea than you are rationally warranted in
being.
Now, as I
noted in an
article a few years back, because of the brevity of the comments one
typically makes on them and the immediacy and volume of responses these
comments generate, forums such as Twitter/X, Facebook’s comments sections, and
the like have a strong tendency to promote associationist thinking. Moreover, they make this sort of thinking addictive insofar as they feed what
Scruton calls “the hunger to be shocked, gripped, stirred in whatever way might
take us straight to the goal of excitement.”
Snap reactions to events and drive-by insults tend to afford the social
media user a frisson of
self-righteous pleasure. The approval of
fellow members of one’s online “tribe” (as indicated by “likes,” retweets, and
so on) yields further pleasure. By
contrast, lengthier and more carefully formulated expressions of one’s opinions
are much less likely to be read, and nuance is often attacked by people on
one’s own “side” as treasonous accommodation with the enemy tribe. In these ways, reason is punished with pain and
unreason rewarded with pleasure, to the point that irrational habits of thought
become habitual.
In his article
“The
Transfiguration of the Commonplace” (not to be confused with his
book of the same name), the philosopher of art Arthur C. Danto makes some
remarks that shed further light on our topic:
I think that with human beings – and this is a mark of
humanity – pleasures, or at least those pleasures to which we attach any
special importance – are dependent upon certain cognitive presuppositions, and
will not survive discovery that the relevant beliefs are false. Sexual pleasure, for instance, will
ordinarily not survive the discovery that one is having pleasure with the wrong
partner, or at least the wrong sort of partner.
Someone’s pleasure in food similarly presupposes beliefs about the
nature and provenance of the food: the ragout turns to ashes in the mouth of an
orthodox Muslim when he discovers its main ingredient to be pork, or in any of
our mouths, upon information that we have been relishing human flesh, unless we
are cannibals, in which case the reverse of this is true when we discover we
have been handed veal instead of missionary.
(pp. 144-45)
Addiction
often involves a breakdown in this normal dependence of pleasure on cognitive
presuppositions. That is to say,
habituation to pleasure can lead the intellect to ignore or abandon what reason
tells it is abhorrent and not to be done, to such an extent that it can smother
the displeasure one naturally feels
upon a revelation of the sort Danto describes.
This is what happens, for example, when a jaded pornography user seeks
out novel titillations in images he once would have found repulsive, or a drug
addict begins to use harder drugs that once would have horrified him, when the
milder ones lose their thrill.
Note that I am not claiming there is always something intrinsically wrong with coming to take pleasure in things one at one time found off-putting. That can be perfectly normal and healthy, as when one comes to appreciate activities (such as reading), or to enjoy delicacies, that held no attraction when one was a child. The key is whether there is something in our nature that makes some practice inherently contrary to what is objectively good for us and which people tend therefore to find repulsive, but where repeated indulgence in the practice has destroyed the horror or shame with which we previously regarded it. That would be an example in which addiction to pleasure has seared the conscience and disordered the intellect. As I’ve discussed elsewhere, on Aquinas’s analysis, sexual sins have a stronger tendency to do this than any other, because of the unique intensity of the pleasure associated with them.

Why did God gives us (particularly males) a sexual appetite that is so hard to control? It has been this way from the beginning.
ReplyDeleteThis is actually a point I've been considering for a while. Sex doesn't seem to exist in the way that one imagines it should, if one supposes that it was created by an intelligent mind for the purposes of human beings engaging in lifelong monogamous relationships with each other. Instead, sex seems set up to encourage young men to be as promiscuous as possible, rewarding them for siring children with as many women as possible. And it's not as if it couldn't be otherwise - it's not hard to imagine a world where (for example), pregnant women emit pheromones that reduce the libido of men, or make them less able to become sexually aroused by other women, or somesuch. This setup would result in a world where any man who got a woman pregnant would be incentivized to stay with her instead of running off. I'm just throwing out random ideas here, I'm sure holes could be poked in them, but the basic point is that if little old me can think of ideas that plausibly produce monogamy more reliably than the current reality, it's surely absurd to think that God would not be capable of designing the world to produce the results He wants more reliably.
DeleteI would argue against your premise that male sexual appetite is hard to control. With enough prayer, correct orientation of the heart, bible reading, community and strong relationships, one can deal with sexual temptation. The grip of sexual appetite may be difficult to deal with due to our inherited concupiscence, but the holy spirit helps us deal with this.
DeleteHe didn't. He gave us a sexual appetite that was perfectly controlled until the Fall. At that time and ever after, because man had rebelled against his creator, man's lower faculties and passions rebelled against his reason.
DeleteNo, not from the beginning, but only since the Fall of Adam and Eve. Thus, it was not God who gave us the inflamed appetite.
DeleteAnons: The Fall is a myth.
DeleteArnsel-man5. Bible reading, the sacraments, prayer, etc. do not take away sexual desire. It is unlawfully satisfied (per the Catholic church) by unmarried men through masturbation, or when they copulate, or lawfully (per the Catholic church) when they marry.
The experience of the history of mankind is that sexual desire, particularly for unmarried men, is extremely hard to control. The great English novelist, Graham Greene, struggled with his Catholic faith and his sexuality throughout his life.
https://firstthings.com/dark-greene/
Arsenal-man5:
DeleteSee, even with trying to be as charitable as possible, I can't describe this position as anything other than "Party Line Theology". In other words, despite being taught as the official position, it very obviously does not track onto the real world, and nobody who is being honest with themselves can seriously think that it works (unless they are deeply ignorant of reality). Despite everything, it seems like prayer, the sacraments, etc, have very little noticeable effect on whether or not men masturbate or not. That's not me trying to be insulting or flippant, it's just looking at the situation on the ground honestly. Failing to acknowledge that just causes unnecessary suffering, both emotional and spiritual (in the sense that many people will come to experience their sexual nature as a kind of ball and chain, or even as something like a tiger perpetually ready to pounce on them). Personally, I place most of the blame at Augustine's feet. Dude had some messed up neuroses about sex.
I'd like to build upon Anon @1:40's point about the Fall with two more points.
DeleteOne, not only is the Fall a myth, it is very specifically a Christian myth. It is based on a very specific, Late-Antiquity-era Christian interpretation of Genesis 2 and 3. The Jews have never believed in anything like it, and the notion was unknown in Second Temple Judaism. The most popular explanation they used for the origin of evil was instead its introduction via the Grigori, or "Watchers", angels who sinned by copulating with human women and teaching mankind how to make weapons, create cosmetics, perform astrology, and so on. These are the bound angels that the Epistle of Jude makes reference to, and the fathers of the Nephilim, or giants, mentioned in Genesis 6. Christians needed to come up with a new interpretation of the origin of evil as a by-product of the re-definition of what the Messiah was supposed to do. Obviously, Jesus did not fulfill what the Jews thought the Messiah would do, so instead they needed to find a way in which He could be made to still be the Savior, and the Fall provided this.
The second point is that, even if you accept the Fall, so long as you still posit an omniscient God, you are left with the fact that He still seems to be at fault for the Fall happening. If an architect builds a house with a flaw that he easily foresees, and makes no attempt to rectify that flaw, then he is at fault when the flaw causes the house to collapse. So, you're still left with the paradox of explaining how God can know with perfect foreknowledge that if He creates Man, then Man will rebel, creates Man regardless, and yet remains not blameworthy for this circumstance. How can this be? Surely it cannot be that God is unfree or unable to create Man such that the disobedience will not happen? Surely he cannot be unfree to refuse to create? The problem seems thorny for anyone who would accept the Fall, and no, I will not accept "you are not allowed to question God because He is right by definition" as an answer.
@EXE:
Delete"So, you're still left with the paradox of explaining how God can know with perfect foreknowledge that if He creates Man, then Man will rebel, creates Man regardless, and yet remains not blameworthy for this circumstance."
Thomists (specifically, and given where we are, Prof. Feser) will not even try it and correctly label your "paradox" as a pseudo-problem. And since in your formulation this is just a species of the logical problem of evil, it has been conclusively dealt with by, say, Alvin Plantinga.
"Surely it cannot be that God is unfree or unable to create Man such that the disobedience will not happen?"
Sure, God could have created a world where disobedience did not occur. It would also be a world without EXE and grodrigues. And while I am sympathetic to the idea that we would all be better off without you, I firmly reject that this world would be better off without me.
"I will not accept "you are not allowed to question God because He is right by definition" as an answer."
Neither do I accept what you accept or don't accept; you do not get to unilaterally set the terms and the framing of any would-be responses.
Because it has to be an intense appetite if the species is going to survive, since most people would not take on the daunting task of having kids merely by reasoning that it is good for the species. So an intense pleasure is nature's "hook", for so to speak, to get us to have sex and reproduce.
DeleteRené:
DeleteThis doesn't seem very convincing. The passions are not only strong but unruly, and their unruliness leads to a great deal of evil. Why could an all-powerful God not create us in such a way that we could avoid that, so that we had better control of our passions? Or, why not make it so that all people were demisexual, and could only be sexually attracted to a person they were already emotionally intimate with? That'd prevent a great majority of cases of adultery and SA from ever occurring. That's only one example, but the broader point is that this world really doesn't look like one that was designed by a benevolent God in order to promote a Christian concept of morally good behavior. There's this explanatory gap between the world as it really is and the world as you'd expect it to be given the belief that Christianity is true. That gap requires explanation, and I've never seen such an explanation that wasn't deeply flawed. If you have a better one, I'd be interested in hearing it.
And while I am sympathetic to the idea that we would all be better off without you, I firmly reject that this world would be better off without me.
DeleteOK. I don't care who you are. That's funny!
grod:
DeletePlantinga's answer to even the Logical part of the Problem of Evil is pretty unconvincing. I will grant that, *if* you accept its premises, then it succeeds in showing that it is not *totally impossible* that God could have a reason for creating a world in which humans do moral evil. But even if you grant that, there's a huge gap between "it's logically possible" and "there's good reason to believe it". Even this part is questionable, as Mackie has pointed out that there's no reason to think that an omnipotent God would be limited to only having access to human essences that suffer from transworld depravity. Even if you accept it, all this establishes is that it's not impossible that God has a good reason for doing things this way. Maybe bare not-impossibility is good enough for you, but it's not good enough to convince anyone who isn't already predisposed to believe in God. That's not even getting into how natural evil fits into this (why are there so many hurricanes, earthquakes, diseases? Why do children die of cancer? And so on), or the question of proportionality (even if it is not impossible that the existence of a Tri-Omni God is incompatible with the existence of evil, is that existence compatible with the existence of *this much* evil?).
"Sure, God could have created a world where disobedience did not occur. It would also be a world without EXE and grodrigues. And while I am sympathetic to the idea that we would all be better off without you, I firmly reject that this world would be better off without me."
What kind of argument is this supposed to be? That I ought to be grateful to God for creating a world where kids die of cancer, because I wouldn't exist otherwise? How does that work at all?
@EXE:
Delete"Plantinga's answer to even the Logical part of the Problem of Evil is pretty unconvincing. I will grant that, *if* you accept its premises, then it succeeds in showing that it is not *totally impossible* that God could have a reason for creating a world in which humans do moral evil."
Sigh.
This is not Plantinga's argument at all. Since you know nothing, I am going to be short. The best place to start is Goedel's completeness theorem of first-order logic, that a theory T is consistent iff it has a model. The theory T in question being (and simplifying things for the sake of brevity) the conjunction of "God exists" and "evil exists". Of course philosophy is not a formal theory, so what does a model consist of? Simply a story where "God exists" and "evil exists" are both true. And I say "story" and I mean it: it does not have to be true or even remotely plausible, it just has to be logically consistent. In particular, whether you find convincing or not is completely irrelevant; if you want to disprove it you have to prove that the story Plantinga gives is *logically inconsistent*, and everyone that actually knows what the issue at stake is understands that this is a very tall order.
"That I ought to be grateful to God for creating a world where kids die of cancer, because I wouldn't exist otherwise?"
Some goods are contingent on some evils, so no fall no EXE. More generally, no fall, completely different world from the actual one. Better? Worse? No one knows, no one can possibly know, or even has the criteria to decide what "better" or "worse" consists of. Talk contrarywise is just empty, performative bluster. This is just an observation, not intended as an argument to justify God's actions -- as I said in the beginning I am a Thomist and the problem of evil as you formulated it is a pseudo-problem and any "solution" that tries to morally justify God's actions is therefore a false solution.
I should add that there are other means of showing that Plantingas's story does not do what is required, e. g. proving that it begs the question or some such logical failing.
DeleteYeah, yeah, we get it. You smart Thomist, me dumb-dumb. You're full of empty words. Maybe it reassures you to think that all you need to do to resolve the contradictions of life is tell a story where God and evil can co-exist. Maybe you can soothe the cognitive dissonance by casually dismissing the suffering of your fellow man as "a pseudo-problem", so long as it's remote from you. But we all know that this mental construct would shatter instantly in the face of real tragedy. Somehow I very much doubt that, if your own children were killed by a falling tree, or got cancer, that you would be able to find your own story at all convincing. It is worthless as an actual answer to the Problem of Evil, and no amount of pretending that the Problem isn't real will make it go away. All that does is make you utterly incapable of grappling with it, including comforting those suffering from it. Only those with comfortable lives or stone hearts have the luxury of dismissing the importance of suffering.
DeleteYour wall of text comments are off putting and not very readable. Line breaks are your friend.
DeleteExe, plenty of people suffering from serious tragedy (such as what you describe) have found comfort and solace in religion and God. You talk as if religious people never experience pain and suffering
Delete@EXE
Delete"This is actually a point I've been considering for a while. Sex doesn't seem to exist in the way that one imagines it should, if one supposes that it was created by an intelligent mind for the purposes of human beings engaging in lifelong monogamous relationships with each other."
Ignoring your discussion with the boys because i found this just fascinating. I have a similar observation for probably more than a year, but more especifically for theistic systems with less fall-like components. Think like if you accept classical theism, realism about the universals, natural law and pretty much stop there(like Ed view of what we can learn with no revelation).
Basically, if God exists and does have a interest in us being virtuous, should not virtue be easier? Most animals seems to more easily follow their "ideal", if you permit me.
To be sure, most religions and philosophical ur-platonist systems do seems to adress that by having a fall-like event(like most ancient religions of the world and christianity) or having this alienation of the average soul that needs to reconnect with what it is etc.
It just seems like we feel that something turned out very wrong back them.
Anonymous who commented on April 10, 2026 at 1:40 PM.
DeleteHow and why do you suppose the fall is a myth ?
Secondly, in your direct answer to me. I never claimed participation in the Christian life "takes away" sexual desire. I simply said it can be controlled with correct orientation of the heart (mind, soul, intellect). Whilst Catholic Priests, like all of us, have struggled with immoral sexual desires, they are very much able to deal with it. You're right that history shows sexual desires are hard to control. But I can attest from personal experience (as can many saints and theologians) that the intentional choice to stick with Christ through prayer, Bible reading and fellowship make sexual desire much easier to control. Graham Greene certainly may have struggled with sexual immorality, as I have too. I can't truthfully discuss Greene's personal spiritual life, but each time I fell into sexual sins, I know the spiritual errors which I made. Since then, I have made myself more organised in dealing with such difficulties. It is possible.
@EXE (in relation to your comment on April 10, 2026 at 7:45 PM). Thanks for your response. I can affirm that my position is not "party line theology" predicated upon strict internal coherence and idolatry of tradition. I would argue the action I proposed does track on to reality. Proper orientation of the heart through prayer, Bible study and the sacraments draws us into the holy life so that we may recieve sanctifying grace (that helps us avoid mortal sins). Prayer is often earnest communication that enables the intellect to properly recognise intellectual truths in action and not just in the rational sense. For example, one may understand the natural law objections to masterbation, but an earnest orientation of the heart, prayer and bible reading truly enable the individual to commit in action. Your observation about the minor effect of prayer and the things I discussed seems very misguided. I have empirical experience that an honest approach with the above does help. I certainly have some objections to Augustine's view of sex; he was a man who committed lots of sexual immorality before he became a Christian, so even if he is wrong, you can kind of see how he may have got that view.
DeleteProperly understood, sex is something which God created and therefore a gift. It has only been improperly used by humans. Clearly, in the Bible sex is something to be celebrated. Especially through the songs of solomon and genesis, where God tells Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply.
Proverbs 5:18-19 (NIV): "May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth... may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be intoxicated with her love".
@EXE (for your comment on April 10, 2026 at 8:00 PM) Again, how is it a myth ? The jews do believe in something like original sin. Some concepts include: "yetzer hara" and "shetut". It depends what kind of interpretation of original sin and concupiscence you have, but the jews certainly have a concept which is similar.
DeleteSecondly, God is not at fault for the fall happening. It was ultimately humans' choice to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The tree represents the prerogative to determine for ourselves what is Good and evil. Thus to eat from the tree is deciding for ourselves how we should act rather than submit ourselves to God's divine law in obedience and humility. In the modern academic world, you could theoretically think of this as creating your own normative ethical theory that displaces God as the basis for morality (as Kant did in his rationalist deontological ethics). It is a sin because telling God, "I know what you want", " I want what I want" is disobedient and spiritual prideful. God's design of morality was perfectly beneficial and right, yet A & E still sinned.
Regarding God having foreknowledge of Adam & Eve's sin, I would argue he maintains foreknowledge and Adam & Eve's freedom at the same time. If they had chosen to not sin and live with God as he wanted, then he would have foresaw that instead. God intentionally placed the tree in the garden so that humans had a proper, free choice to decide whether they wanted to worship him. This is proper freedom that allows for wilful love of God, rather than a celestial dictatorship.
God ultimately allowed satan to tempt A & E, so that they were forced to make a choice and utilise their free will as God wanted them to. To preserve freedom, he allowed them to make such a choice. Much suffering and disobedience has ensued consequently.
@EXE:
Delete"Maybe it reassures you to think that all you need to do to resolve the contradictions of life is tell a story where God and evil can co-exist."
I understand that, as you stated many times and in no uncertain terms, you are not here to discuss anything whatsoever but as an enemy and a conqueror, but just as a point of elementary logic I gave you a solution, showing on the way that you do not even know or understand what your opponents are saying. If consistency arguments in philosophy are not possible, neither are inconsistency arguments and the (logical) problem of evil is dead. If a consistency argument is to be damned because it does not solve "the contradictions of life" (whatever that means) then the same applies mutatis mutandis to the inconsistency argument that is the (logical) problem of evil. If you dispute the solution you can make your case. Performative bleating about "children with cancer" or the "contradictions of life" will not solve anything.
"But we all know that this mental construct would shatter instantly in the face of real tragedy."
You seem to think that once you dispense with Christianity suddenly everything will make sense; that if only we reject its false consolations, we can grab the true ones. The plain matter of fact is that outside it (or some form of religion making comparable claims) the only thing you can say in the face of tragedy is to shrug your shoulders and murmur "s*** happens". It is precisely because we start with the one transcendental God, creator and providential ruler of the universe, that we can speak of the God nailed to the cross that died to redeem our lives and incorporate them in the blessedness of Trianitarian love. You start with nothing, have nothing, end with nothing; you are nothing.
The rest does not really deserve a response, being as it is a case of projection. Your (ab)use of tragedy for your own self-serving rhetorical purposes tells us everything about you and nothing about tragedy, life or whatever.
See also: Fr. John Ford (of Humanae Vitae fame) on alcoholism
ReplyDeleteIf masturbation really stopped people from going through the work of meeting others and getting to know them, we’d be long extinct by now. Countries without the three Abrahamic religions as the majority, including China and India, would not have a billion+ people.
ReplyDeleteGood point. Let me guess, the response will be for the Thomist to come in and modify his theory in a way that prevents it from being falsified by this, but which in the process devastates its ability to predict or describe reality.
Delete"On an Aristotelian-Thomistic natural law analysis, pleasure exists in us largely to bond us to other human beings. This is clear enough where sex is concerned, but it is even true to a large extent where the pleasures of food and drink are concerned. In human beings, food and drink are typically (even if not always) taken in the context of a meal, which is a social event which reinforces bonds of family and friendship. Addiction where sex, food, and drink are concerned is in large part a result of separating the pleasure associated with these things from the social context and making of it a kind of private entertainment, where it can be sought and gratified in a way that bears no connection to others."
DeleteThis seems like a very strange way to characterize eating, drinking, etc. These things are indeed *often* carried out with other people present, and it is true that there are social benefits to doing so. But to suggest that social interaction is *foundational* to eating or drinking makes very little sense. Eating is simply nutrition, and drinking is simply hydration. The pleasures of such exist as signals to the brain and body that we are doing something useful to our survival. Because we are generally social creatures, we often partake in nutrition and hydration behaviors in a social context, but these are ancillary to those processes. Suggesting otherwise seems bizarre - wouldn't this imply that it is *immoral*, or at least deficient, to eat or drink by oneself? But what about people who aren't naturally social, or who just prefer dining in private? What about neurodivergent folks who have different feelings and approaches towards dining and socializing?
Hmm, it doesn't seem clear to me that your invocation of Danto is appropriate. I don't think he means what you are using him to support. Danto speaks of "cognitive presuppositions" that are necessary for certain types of pleasures, but there is no indication in his writing that he is speaking about the same thing you talk about "what reason tells it is abhorrent and not to be done". He is simply talking about beliefs more generally, with no requirement that the beliefs be justified or rational. For instance, there is nothing per se immoral about eating pork, but the orthodox Muslim is part of a community whose presuppositions include "pork is dirty, both physically and spiritually, and to eat it is corrupting". Thus, the pleasure of eating pork ragou is vitiated by the anxiety-inducing belief that one has violated a sacred rule. Thus, there is a sense in which the pleasure of eating is dependent on the cognitive presupposition "Eating this thing is morally licit". But this is simply a belief - there is no requirement that it be the sacred judgment of reason. Literally any belief can cause this reaction if one is somehow convinced of it. For instance, a pious Jain might feel immense guilt if he accidentally steps on an ant, because his belief system tells him that to kill another is immoral, regardless of intent or the status of the one killed. A Christian doing the same would likely not feel any guilt at all, because his belief system does not give him this presupposition. Is the Christian more rational than the Jain? No, it's simply that his beliefs are different.
DeleteWow EXE 3 posts in a row.
DeleteI'd like to apologize for my first post under this comment. That was uncalled for and unfair, and it's not good to maintain such nasty attitudes even if you think they're justified.
DeleteAs for three in a row, well, when I have a lot to say I prefer to keep the subjects seperated so that the issues can be discussed individually as opposed to getting mixed together.
Well, it depends on the prevalence of the vice, I guess. This is the first time in history that sexual stimulus is available to the masses to such an extent that it can foster disinterest in real humans. Many times I've seen in the internet, social media posts that warn about the dangers of porn from an entirely secular point of view; namely, that it creates disinterest in ones couple and even erectile disfunction. It's not so hard to see why that would happen, I mean, porn raises the bar for an addict in a way that no real partner can match. And now we're even witnessing the demonic phenomenon of AI girlfriends, why only God knows what sorts of evils is going to unleash into society.
Delete"Well, it depends on the prevalence of the vice, I guess. This is the first time in history that sexual stimulus is available to the masses to such an extent that it can foster disinterest in real humans"
DeleteCouple of problems here. Firstly, you just do not know this. You have no way of knowing that masturbation is now more commonplace than it was in the past, either in this country or worldwide. Without that data, your claim is simply assertion.
Secondly, you seem to be assuming the conclusion here. The claim was that "masturbation causes reduced desire for sexual intimacy/social partnership". Anon countered that masturbation is and always has been commonplace throughout the world, and yet desire for sexual partnership did not reduce. You countered by claiming that "This is the first time in history that sexual stimulus is available to the masses to such an extent that it can foster disinterest in real humans". But this only works if you assume that you are correct about sexual stimulus being the cause of disinterest in real humans, which has not been established.
Furthermore, even if you have data that shows moderns being less interested in sex with real humans, you'd need to establish that pornography (and related phenomena) were the cause of that disinterest. It could easily be that they are unconnected, or that they both spring from the same root cause, or that the causality flows the other way (for example, young people being hopeless and socially isolated, which leads them to turn to pornography for solace).
Well, I was claiming that sexual stimulus was more commonplace, not masturbation per se, and that's not hard to see; it's the first time in history that most people have access to porn within their pockets' reach, isn't it? Now, on the basis of that, I don't think it's crazy to assume that masturbation per se is more commonplace than before. Moreover, masturbation is not only not stigmatized today but positively encouraged, as you can see from myriads of articles claiming that it's good for your health.
DeleteLots of reasonable assumptions turn out to be false, as do a lot of the things we term "common sense". I don't consider "well it seems reasonable to me" to be a strong enough basis to support such a wide-ranging argument. All that can get you to is possibility. Without any tangible data, you can't really take this claim beyond "well maybe it's true".
DeleteSadly, I think we passed the point of no return, and there is no fixing this. People are radicalized to a point that that's not just the addictions pulling the strings, but the (i)rationalization of the vices.
ReplyDeleteAt the time being, all we can do is pray for each other and hope that, someday, we acknowledge the evil we are doing to ourselves.
On an Aristotelian-Thomistic natural law analysis, pleasure exists in us largely to bond us to other human beings.
ReplyDeleteAs I understand it, we typically use the term "pleasure" for satisfaction of the physical, sensitive capacities. Sex and food, but also warmth (coming in from the cold and sitting by the fire), soft or silky things on the skin, etc. We also use it for satisfactions arising from sight and sound (an excellent painting or sculpture, or symphony), but obviously the physicality of the satisfaction is attenuated: the thing that is satisfying may be material, but a photograph of the painting might be nearly as satisfying as the original. And it may take light rays to convey the image to the eye, but once the image is captured in the memory, it no longer requires that.
I think that St. Thomas uses the term "joy" for the satisfaction of the rational appetite that arises from good embraced / obtained. It is my sense that this is what describes the kind of enjoyment (same root word there) that we get from a meal shared with friends & family: one can get some of the same enjoyment even when the food itself is mediocre to the taste.
It requires a further analysis to reflect on human nature and decide that the pleasure of the senses in physical goods for the body are meant to be participated in under (and be conformed to) rational goods, making rational goods the more central to human happiness. This step is generally lacking in those who claim that sex is "just" a physical exercise with no particular moral content (as long as the participants are doing it consensually).
At this point, people overall have access to more pleasures of different kinds than were around for most of human history. Various drugs like tobacco or marijuana existed, but they were confined to a particular area. There was not as much variety of food and drink. Entertainment and kinds of entertainment are more widely available.
ReplyDeleteAlso, there is overall, less pain due to an increase in medical knowledge.
And yet, given all this, at a level that would have been unimaginable, frankly, even to people 100 years ago, what has been the response? To say there isn't enough.
Clearly, that is not the answer, but what it shows is that there is more to life than pleasures and varieties of pleasure.
Hi Ed, while on this topic, I recall that you said you had forthcoming a book advocating the Thomistic natural law view of sexual morality, as well as one that would be an overall apologetic for the Catholic faith itself. Are these still in the pipeline? Like Immortal Souls, I think many including myself would find these enormously profitable.
ReplyDeleteNow that I've given it more thought, this description of addiction seems increasingly flawed. Evidence suggests that the majority of eating disorders (say) are caused by stress or anxiety - they tend towards being unhealthy coping mechanisms. Eating alone vs together doesn't seem to have much of anything to do with it. In fact, in the case of drinking specifically, social consumption can actually enable the problem, since having others do it with you is likely to convince you that what you're doing is fine and normal. The point I'm getting at is that this attempt to analyze the "final and formal causes" of addiction doesn't seem to track with reality very well at all. Why should we take it seriously if it's so poor at describing reality?
ReplyDeleteI've got a problem with this analysis of addiction as someone who struggled with a drinking problem. For me, it wasn't about chasing pleasure (my body was already used to the state of intoxication so that it wasn't 'fun' anyway) but about avoiding painful states of mind. So it was more about 'moving away' rather than 'moving towards ' something. I suspect many addictions are more like this.
ReplyDeleteI think what you describe here also describes addictions in general, but it's not contrary to what Ed laid out here, but rather just the flipside of it.
DeleteIn general, addictions cease to be fun or enjoyable. That's why we recognize them as addictions and seek to overcome them. They are prisons. Eventually all that remains of the original pleasure is the temporary distraction from the shame and pain one feels over it when not engaging in it.
But it still remains true in the moment that the addiction is indulged that it offers some sort of pleasure, whether it be sexual gratification or a momentary alleviation of emotional pain. And this momentary pleasure is what leads to the addiction in the first place.
Also, the fact that addictions are often gotten into socially (eg starting with social drinking or drug use among friends) doesn't change that they are anti-social and contrary to our social nature.
Whether it be alcohol addiction, food addiction, drug addiction, or sex addiction, these always end up isolating a person from normal healthy social relationships with friends and family.
But Deuce, high-functioning alcoholics and drug addicts exist. Many of them remain highly social and retain extensive, rich social lives. How, then, can it be that addiction is fundamentally antisocial?
DeleteAddiction arises when the subject has full control over a pleasure and can produce it at will. It is primarily a matter of sensory pleasure, and involves a kind of short-circuiting of the pleasure network.
DeleteAs an approximation, and as a "typically, this is what happens", this account might be a fair de facto description. As a definition of addiction, it's pretty poor, I think. Just for example: if a person is made to have a crack cocaine addiction by being forced to take it, he doesn't "have full control" but he is just as addicted as someone who did it by choice. The problems in this start were so off-putting that I had trouble listening to the rest of Scruton's comment.
Well, one can always go to Confession. When I was young and sexually active, I went fairly often. Now that I am older and less sexually active, I go less often.
ReplyDeleteHi Ed, thanks for posting this and clearly it's led to a great conversation. I'm a full time therapist who has been working on this topic for the past fifteen years, nine of which were spent in a drug and alcohol rehab. Is this area or the more general area of Aquinas and moral/therapeutic practical application of particular interest to you? It strikes me as one area where the professional philosopher and sympathetic therapist could fruitfully engage, and I for one would greatly benefit from such an exchange. And yes, Aquinas account of the structure of the passions, the intellect, etc. does have genuine advances over current models. I'm sure you suspect that. I can speak it from the inside. Thanks for bringing it to our attention in any event!
ReplyDeleteCan you elaborate more on the advantages as you have seen them play out in your practice?
DeleteHi there! There are a number of things. I will be brief simply because I could go on too much for a blog reply. First of all the structure of ends provides an elegant way to situate addiction. Certain ends can become more primary and more deeply habituated (using the mediaeval conception of habit is illuminating here). We can see that certain ends if treated as ends in themselves can order a life in a manner that medical models cannot appreciate. Second the passions are used in Aquinas in a manner that is richer than modern taxonomies. The irascible and concupiscable distinction can become quite powerful when we see them as a layered approach that can be coerced by the structure of ends. The possibility of addiction as a disordered Intellective good explains much about how the passions can line and fail to line up with the addictive object. We can also recognise that the individual can attach to the object through a process of distorted co-naturality, and the process of temptation itself can be analysed in terms of the relationship of a particular to a universal 'good'. And there is more, but I needn't go into it all unless you are specifically interested. One specific example from practice was a chap trying to manage smoking (yes, that was allowed then in the alcohol rehab) We were able to use Aquinas passion schema to be able to look at it and break down the process of temptation (no passion but an Intellective pull. Now the object is seen as obtainable and there is a concupiscable drive. Now there is an internal resistance and an irascible drive or 'daring' is egging me on to break protocol etc. - that kind of thing). I am actually thinking of doing a book on all this on an even more fundamental feature but that is kind of my secret as I think it is uniquely my own, not written about in Thomistic scholarship so far as as far as I can tell.
DeleteJoseph G,
DeleteI'd read your book. Sounds very interesting.
Sure are a-lot of low rent Stardusty-esque talking points on this thread.
ReplyDeleteThe quality of the posts on this blog are not what they were some 5 years ago or more. Everything runs its course.
DeleteCheap dunks might make you feel good; and might signal your trustworthiness to your peer group; but they are not answers.
DeleteThere are seldom any answers that could satisfy such emotive tirades.
DeleteMaybe the prolific emotive tirades are indicative of an addiction. Interesting at the volume of such comments considering the topic.
Delete@bmiller, quite true
DeleteIt is true that sexual desires are strong, but people have known that for as long as there have been people. The issue is that the sexual revolution hasn't done anything to help matters. The constant attempts to use sexuality to sell things or manipulate people, how is any of that actually beneficial to individuals or society?
ReplyDeleteOn another topic, one issue with critiquing traditional values is that progressive ideology is not stable. It's no good to say that traditional society has changed when progressive ideologies have been unable to conserve themselves. What are we supposed to be supporting: the society of the 1950's, the 1990's, the 2000's, or the 2020's? These are all substantially different.
A fixed set of values and a particular state of affairs is something people can actually support. If it is just a open-ended critique that is never satisfied, how is that beneficial?
Why are you describing social evolution as if it were something bizarre and unstable? Society is always changing, and the goal of the progressive movement is to help it change towards what its members see as a better form. Not only is this normal, it is inevitable, and it has always been happening throughout history. There is no such thing as a static culture, at least not one that's still alive. Haven't you heard of the many ways that society has changed throughout history? The Peasant's Revolt? The rise of the merchant class? The Bhakti Movement? The Medieval Communal movement? Society has always changed. It CAN'T stay the same forever. To change is to live, and to live is to change. You're not supposed to be just picking the culture of one specific decade or time period and then supporting that forever. The point is to embrace the process of improvement. So long as things are going in the right direction, that's good. Of course, we can have disagreements about whether things ARE going in the right direction, and a conservative might reasonably think they aren't. But it's not mysterious why things keep changing - that's what they should do. The world changes, and society needs to change with it, because it's silly to think that the solutions made to work for the world as it was 100 years ago will work for the world of today.
ReplyDelete"Society is always changing, and the goal of the progressive movement is to help it change towards what its members see as a better form"
DeleteI get the point you are making, but where I would part ways is that while I agree that society is not static, there is change and there is change. Changes can be large or small and they can affect more superficial aspects of society or fundamental attitudes and values.
I would say that if changes are large enough, then we are talking about a different society, not an evolution or development from a previous one.
How a society will change and the nature of the changes all depend on particular circumstances. It is one thing to look back and trace what did happen, but to say it had to be that way is another story. And by and large, I do not think that any of the societal changes over the past 100 years were inevitable. They happened for various reasons, but things could have been different.
So, back to your original question, I was not saying that change is bizarre or unstable, my point was that, for example, the 2020's are very different than even the 1990's. Different enough that it is a divergence, not a development or evolution. So, if someone in the 1990's said we need to do X or Y, what people would envision from that is the 1990's society but just with X or Y. (I'm using the decade as a shorthand, not saying that it has to be pinned to that point in time). But if things are different enough, that what did they end up agreeing to? Just to go down a road that could go anywhere.
Also, I appreciated the politeness of your comment.
To change is to live, and to live is to change.
DeleteThere is a sense in which this is quite literally true: to live requires taking in NEW nutrition that you never had before, (and getting rid of waste products). That's change.
And there's a sense in which the bare statement is grossly vague and over-broad. Significant changes, taken individually, are not inevitable, they are the result of CHOICES, and those choices COULD have gone the other way. The fact that (a) a large society entails MANY people making choices, and (b) statistically, not a few of these WILL choose choices that imply a change, leads to the conclusion that statistically speaking, it is inevitable that there WILL BE significant change. But the sheer fact that there will be such change doesn't BEGIN to answer whether the significant change is good or bad for society (and, in the aggregate, for the people affected by those changes). Change as such is not "a good": change for the better is (necessarily) a subset of "change", and some changes are for the worse. Because changes come from choices, and change for the worse COULD have been avoided by people making different choices, it is silly to point to "change is inevitable" to JUSTIFY such change.
Even conservatives (generally) don't object to the kind of slow, incremental, small changes implied in organic growth. For example, a couple gets married, and they have kids. Having kids is "change" and growth. Conservatives are fine with this kind of change, it's implied in a healthy society that its married couples have kids - at LEAST to replace themselves in the long run. But suppose that, at that time in that society, resources are plentiful, the parents are pulling in a bit of surplus wealth not needed today, and the couple has 4 kids instead of 2: that's also the kind of change implied by organic growth in the given conditions, in the way plants grow and expand into the resources available.
The social problem comes from bigger, bolder changes not as organic growth. Progressives point to "things wrong" in the current society, and say "we can fix some of them and make society better". That's true. Conservatives mostly agree with the first point that "there are some things wrong", (though there will be some disagreements about WHICH things are wrong). Conservatives also will mostly agree with the statement "if we can fix things that are wrong, we should" (with a caveat, below), and for that matter they often propose such changes themselves.
But there are three critical differences between them at this point. First, experienced conservatives will give a lot of weight to the problem of unintended consequences that were not anticipated, typically more so than progressives. Secondly, conservatives put a lot of weight on the principle that customary practices often were arrived at through effort to eliminate other problems, and they both promote or protect many social goods that are not obvious. That is, custom often is a kind of social memory in inchoate form for "we tried that other option, and it didn't work out as well as we hoped." The result shouldn't be "never make changes to custom" but something narrower: you should UNDERSTAND how a custom came to be and how it is connected into other social goods before tinkering with it.
Sometimes progressives admit to both of these points, at least to a degree. The third point is more related to human nature individually: human moral excellence lies in the exercise of the virtues, and the virtues are habits. Habits are made from repeated like actions. And good customs make it EASIER to build good habits, thus easier to build wholesome, virtuous citizens. Therefore, even when it is true that a rule (either a law or a custom) SHOULD be changed, there is an incremental diminution of good habit that comes from instituting that change, and the proper cost-benefit analysis for "in toto, will making this change to the rule be more good or more bad" must include the cost that is that diminution of good habit from making that change.
DeleteWasn't Scruton an apologist for tobacco, the purest form of addiction?
ReplyDeleteGood read, thanks Dr. Feser. I had read Beauty a few years ago and didn't remember the discussion of addiction at all. Great insight here
ReplyDeleteFrom a natural law perspective would it be wrong to start a activity that you knows that has a good chance of starting a addiction?
ReplyDeleteI ask because thanks to my job i have a lot of contact with smokers, and the effects of these substances seems quite strong on the users, several mentioned that they wanted to stop. It just seems that there is something dangerous in smoking the first cigar that would render the activity wrong.
As long as you don't smoke with them, it should be ok. But be careful: Secondhand kills!
DeleteHey, Talmid!
Delete"would it be wrong to start a activity that you knows that has a good chance of starting a addiction?"
That's a great question.
I would say that smoking can become a problem if you don't know how to handle it. If you are not sure of your stance on it, it's better not to start.
I'm tempted to say that some people are more prone to one vice rather than the other. For example, I don't have any problems with drugs or drinking, but I absolutely have a problem with food and moderation while eating. So, while I like to smoke flavoured cigarettes once in a while -- every time I buy a pack, it rots forgotten on my bedside table drawer for months -- I can't have candies or junk food in my fridge, or else I will completely eat everything in a single day.
It is useful to know that you can smoke if you really want, but it's another story altogether if it's really good for you to do so. It is also important to distinguish that you can smoke therapeutically once in a while. Still, the problem is that you can develop a soft spot for it, and quitting might become a problem -- aggravated by the fact that you are surrounded by people who smoke heavily on your job. So, as I said earlier, if you don't know how prone you are to smoking, it's better not to even start it!
Just a last adendum, which might work as a psychological trick: don't tell yourself "you can't do it," or else you will be more inclined to do so, since we all know that what's forbidden tends to provoke our senses in a bad way. You must know that you can smoke if you really want to, but it would not be prudent to do so due to the environment you are in. Rationally tackle the problem, or else the "autopilot" of the will, let's say, might bring a nasty and unwanted temptation and curiosity towards it.
Don't know if this satisfies your question, but I really hope that helps.
Abraço, mano!
@Talmid: "It just seems that there is something dangerous in smoking the first cigar that would render the activity wrong."
DeleteHmm ... does this apply to, say, drinking Scots whiskey? I can think of conservative Christians who allow themselves the enjoyment of a good whiskey and who say that teetotalling Baptists, for example, are overly legalistic.
Apparently, for the vast majority of people, smoking is a learned enjoyment: you have to do it for a while before it becomes something you like. Arguably, (perhaps: I am not a smoker and can't testify to this), what you like about it isn't (ever?) principally the smoke inhalation itself, but other aspects: (a) that you "look cool" or something of the sort, i.e. status points, and (b) the buzz from the chemical cocktail included in the smoke, which gives a dopamine hit, relieves stress, and has a few other effects. If you could make a cigarette that had the same feel (to the mouth and throat) to the smoke but didn't have any of the chemical cocktail effects, would people still smoke it?
DeleteApparently, few people LIKE scotch at their first try, either (me, for example) However, once they have acquired the taste, they actually like the drink in its own right as well as liking the alcoholic buzz it brings. I am confident that if you could concoct a drink that smelled, tasted, and felt just like a great scotch, and didn't have alcohol, you would have some people happy to drink it even though it gave them none of the alcoholic effects.
I suspect this speaks to the question of whether it is an acceptable practice to start doing: what is the motive? If the principal motive is "to enjoy the thing's effects as a drug", that seems hardly wholesome. If it is "to enjoy the complex taste," that's just a normal human appetite reason.
Then comes the DEGREE to which the item is addictive: I take it that smoking is in practice far more addictive than drinking, as there are many, many people who drink alcoholic drinks without any addiction at all, whereas relatively fewer who smoke ONLY occasionally and without addiction. In fact, I would worry that if it is necessary (or nearly necessary) to be a regular smoker to get real enjoyment from it, if the process of overcoming the initial unpleasantness is virtually the same thing as what is needed to become addicted, that suggests that it is irrational to expect to get to the point of enjoying it without being addicted. I don't think the same is true of drinking scotch.
So, to me it feels like for starting smoking, the benefit anticipated is less justifiable as a human good, and the risk of high cost (addiction) is considerably higher, making it much, much harder to fit into a prudentially justifiable activity.
@Tony: I have met one cigar smoker who admitted that he smoked machine-rolled Danish cigars for the nicotine hit. Most cigar smokers I knew when I smoked cigars loved the taste. Open up your nasal passages and enjoy the finish as you might with a fine wine.
DeleteI gave it up in solidarity with a fellow cigar smoker who was told that his TIA ruled out cigars. But it was the taste that I liked.
@Anon
DeleteOh, i dont plan to smoke at all, just that the situation gave me this thought.
@ficino4ml
Tony does bring the good point that most people can drink little, so i do not tend to see alcool with the same distrust. Unless you already have a problem with it, them the whisky should be avoided!
Of course, alcool is pretty destructive on most societies i can think of, so we need to think on what to do, but this is a more social matter
@Vini Tadeu
E ae, cara! Bom falar contigo
Very interesting analysis, specially about the individual tendencies we have to vices.
You make a good point: not everyone is prone to become addicted to smoking. If so, the decision to start to smoke* can be a okay one.
*which i thankfully fo not plan to do!
@Tony
Very interesting analysis about the motivations to start smoking, the comparison with alcool is also very good
I do agree that drinking tends to seems less imprudential than smoking