Dactyl-ManuForm keyboard build

[ju6ju8Oo]

Finally finished my Alps build

What material is this? it looks very smooth.

[mustcode]

Somos NeXt @ 100nm layer. It is quite smooth indeed.

[ju6ju8Oo]

The thumb cluster seems to be optimized for 1.5u or 2u keys. Anyone modified it to be optimized for all 1u?

[ju6ju8Oo]

I've really small hands and I'm changing the thumb cluster to https://imgur.com/a/xxoIP
STL attached
I'll probably print this in 1 week.

Will it work? What're your thoughts?

[vvp]

Looks like switches will fit there. Just try it and you will see. If you are afraid to print it directly then try first on a modeling clay.

All manuform thumb clusters are too low relative to the keywell from my point of view. My thumbs do not extend that low easily. My natural thumb position is higher than the tip of my bent pointing finger. It is hard for me to go much lower with my thumb. Therefore Maltron/Kinesis thumb cluster shape is better for me.
But many people like them and Oobly has a nice version of it too:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48176.msg1049331#msg1049331
I can imagine using Oobly's thumb cluster but positioned a bit higher ... probably. It might need low profile switches there.

[ju6ju8Oo]

I've removed one key, and move the other keys up.
Would the thumb cluster in my version too high?

[vvp]

Put switches (with keycaps) on modeling clay and test how well it fits your hands. That is the best way to find out how the switch positions suit you.

[crystalhand]

The beauty of 3d printers is the ability to iterate and improve.  I have printed more tests than I care to admit on my quest to find a solid way to mount outemu/box switch mounts for the dactyl/maniform. 

[vvp]

I have printed a way too many prototypes too. But things are not that simple when one needs to pay a commercial service for each iteration.

[ju6ju8Oo]

What's your process on using molding clays?
I'm thinking of using 5mm blocks for prototyping.

[ju6ju8Oo]

what screws / nuts should I use?

[ak66666]

I've really small hands and I'm changing the thumb cluster to https://imgur.com/a/xxoIP
STL attached
I'll probably print this in 1 week.

Will it work? What're your thoughts?

Looks good, those two innermost keys in the thumbcluster are barely used anyway. Simply too far, the hand needs to be moved instead of a short twist.
Would you share the clojure file as well please?
I'd tent it a bit more, actually twice the angle, as I did in the latest copies.

[crystalhand]

I have printed a way too many prototypes too. But things are not that simple when one needs to pay a commercial service for each iteration.

Who are you currently using for your prototypes?  I run a fairly small scale 3d keyboard case sidebusiness.  Hit me up if you have any interest, I am sure I can do it for cheaper than you are currently paying.

[vvp]

Who are you currently using for your prototypes?

I have a 3D printer in the next room. No real need to play with modeling clay for me.

[ju6ju8Oo]

Would you share the clojure file as well please?

Code released on https://github.com/l4u/dactyl-manuform-mini-keyboard
STL and plate (ai) can be found on https://github.com/l4u/dactyl-manuform-mini-keyboard/releases
I'm printing them, so I cannot confirm if it works or not.
There's a lot of hard coded numbers for prototyping. I've only generated 4x5.

[ju6ju8Oo]

I'd tent it a bit more, actually twice the angle, as I did in the latest copies.

Any photos / model files? 

[ak66666]

I'd tent it a bit more, actually twice the angle, as I did in the latest copies.

Any photos / model files? 

Sure, please find them here:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2872180

That yellow case is the latest version.
I left a complete one at work, so no pictures until next week.

IIRC The white one in the pictures is the one generated with the default settings.
Plus it has a 6mm sole plate, so it is a bit thicker.

[kamegami]

I started my own Dactyl-Manuform build. I wanted to report that the slicer Cura has a new Tree Support feature. In my testing Tree Supports work particularly well with the Dactyl-Manuform, significantly saving on filament and print time.

A single side 5x6 (tilt increased to 4) without supports is about 72g.
Grid Supports: 147g
Triangle: 148g
Lines: 116g
Tree Supports: 109g

It also saves an estimated hour in print time over the Line supports. The supports also separated in one piece with zero effort, I didn't need to bring the knippers out.

[ju6ju8Oo]

I'd tent it a bit more, actually twice the angle, as I did in the latest copies.

Any photos / model files? 

Sure, please find them here:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2872180

That yellow case is the latest version.
I left a complete one at work, so no pictures until next week.

IIRC The white one in the pictures is the one generated with the default settings.
Plus it has a 6mm sole plate, so it is a bit thicker.

How did you generate the bottom plate?

[ak66666]

I get a slice of it in OpenSCAD with Projection command:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/OpenSCAD_User_Manual/3D_to_2D_Projection
I.e. I load the SCAD file generated by Clojure into OpenSCAD, add that Projection command if front of all other text:
projection(cut=false) translate([0,0,-0.5])
Render it, then export the resulting flat figure it to DXF format, import that file into Autodesk 360 Fusion, press/pull it to a desired thickness, add holes for the screws and foot pads (which are just 0.5 mm deep holes with flat bottoms).
Export the results into STL.
PS. Autodesk Fusion is free for the non-commercial use.

[copper]

Hello everyone!

I just registered to tell you all that I will be building my own copy of this keyboard.

I will post progress here.  So far, I have printed the 6x6 version posted by Chaotic-Entity at github.  I am missing the bottom plates, and may print them as well.  I have my own 3d printer, so that is not an issue.  I also have sheets of policarbonate that could be cut as the bottom plate, but I don't have a CNC.  Because of this, I may try to print bottom plates. 

I will be posting details as I progress.

[Loligagger]

So I'm interested in building one of these myself. However I'd like to make some changes to the layout, and I'm not exactly sure how to go about doing that. Essentially I'd like to add an inner column, and modify the outer columns to more closely resemble the ergodox layout (somewhat like this). Seems like these changes would require more than tweaking the parameters at the top of the file. How should I go about modifying the clojure code to change the layout like this?

[ju6ju8Oo]

Adding an inner column should require a change in the thumb cluster position.
Adding the outer column might require some changes in key positions, and tweaks for the walls depending on how you'd want it to look like.

[Loligagger]

Adding an inner column should require a change in the thumb cluster position.
Adding the outer column might require some changes in key positions, and tweaks for the walls depending on how you'd want it to look like.

Moving the thumb cluster would mean you'd have to mess with the column offsets though, right? That and the I'd like the inner column to only have 3 keys. Seems like I'd have to define a column type with 3 keys, one with 1.5 width, and only use them for the first & last columns respectively. Then add the 5th row to the outer columns by adding it to the thumb cluster (since the 5th row in the 3rd and 4th columns are actually part of the code for the thumb cluster). Then move the walls to accommodate these changes to the columns. But since I'm unfamiliar with clojure code that's as far as I've gotten. How to accomplish those things is beyond me at the moment.

[Loligagger]

So after a good amount of messing with the clojure code, I've finished modding the layout to conform more to the ergodox. If anyone wants I can share the clojure code itself, but it's just a bodge to get it to work with this specific layout, changing the number of rows or columns would most likely break it.

Edit: noticed a small error with one of the connectors, updated the .stl file.
Edit 2: Fixed the outer 1.5u column.

[mmmm]

I'd tent it a bit more, actually twice the angle, as I did in the latest copies.

Any photos / model files? 

Sure, please find them here:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2872180

That yellow case is the latest version.
I left a complete one at work, so no pictures until next week.

IIRC The white one in the pictures is the one generated with the default settings.
Plus it has a 6mm sole plate, so it is a bit thicker.

ak66666, do you have a github repo or anywhere with the code changes for your latest version? I'd love to riff on it

[ju6ju8Oo]

So after a good amount of messing with the clojure code, I've finished modding the layout to conform more to the ergodox. If anyone wants I can share the clojure code itself, but it's just a bodge to get it to work with this specific layout, changing the number of rows or columns would most likely break it.

Edit: noticed a small error with one of the connectors, updated the .stl file.

it would be cool if you can share the clojure code!! how did you change the spacing for the pinky columns?

[Loligagger]

it would be cool if you can share the clojure code!! how did you change the spacing for the pinky columns?

It was a couple of things I modified to get the column to be 1.5u wide. I'll attach the clojure code so you can see for yourself. By no means are my changes to the code the best/most efficient way to do it though (far from it).

[galorin]

I seem to be having trouble getting the clojure to evaluate and regenerate a new set of SCAD files.  I am pulling from /abstracthat/dactyl-manuform master and with the OpenJDK it is producing errors about unmet dependencies if I remember correctly.  Before I go posting logs, is the repo working today?

[ak66666]

ak66666, do you have a github repo or anywhere with the code changes for your latest version? I'd love to riff on it

It is here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ta8aok816smqgo5/AADhWZTSZm8MqsPJmsrqKbZIa?dl=0

[ju6ju8Oo]

I seem to be having trouble getting the clojure to evaluate and regenerate a new set of SCAD files.  I am pulling from /abstracthat/dactyl-manuform master and with the OpenJDK it is producing errors about unmet dependencies if I remember correctly.  Before I go posting logs, is the repo working today?

I used tshort's repo weeks ago and it was working.

[galorin]

I used tshort's repo weeks ago and it was working.

Got it.  It was my environment that was the problem, plus a few lines were commented out that shouldn't have been.  I now have my own fork that is compiling just fine.

Now I just need to get my printer to cooperate.  Had two 80% print failures so far, one was a full print with a layer shift, the other was thermal runaway after a soldered connection gave in to fatigue.

[Loligagger]

Figured I may as well post this now that I've finished the build and typing on it. I'll have to fix the 1.5u outer column though, as they're very slightly off. (Fixed now, updated the .stl file in my previous post). Not really noticeable while typing at least.

I might modify the code to make the bottom row flat with an (inverted?) T arrow cluster. But that probably won't be anytime soon.

[ErgoMacros]

Looking very fine! Congratulations!

[copper]

Work in progress...

[annirak]

I started my own Dactyl-Manuform build. I wanted to report that the slicer Cura has a new Tree Support feature. In my testing Tree Supports work particularly well with the Dactyl-Manuform, significantly saving on filament and print time.

A single side 5x6 (tilt increased to 4) without supports is about 72g.
Grid Supports: 147g
Triangle: 148g
Lines: 116g
Tree Supports: 109g

It also saves an estimated hour in print time over the Line supports. The supports also separated in one piece with zero effort, I didn't need to bring the knippers out.

When I try running the 5x6 STL that's in git through Cura, with tree supports enabled, it says 210g. What settings are you using in Cura?

[geek128]

what keycap profile works best with this? DSA? SA R3? or is it fine with sculpted SA, MT3 or Cherry, too?

[Squarism]

I havent found any review of this/these keboards. Are you satisfied with yours? Complaints? Missing something? Angles properly chosen? Room for improvement? How does it compare to kenisis advantage? The latter having built in palm rest, do you miss that?

I've ordered stuff to be able to build one. Mainly to tackle hand stress I've felt lately. So hope it fills that purpose.

[Dynamo]

Figured I may as well post this now that I've finished the build and typing on it. I'll have to fix the 1.5u outer column though, as they're very slightly off. (Fixed now, updated the .stl file in my previous post). Not really noticeable while typing at least.

I might modify the code to make the bottom row flat with an (inverted?) T arrow cluster. But that probably won't be anytime soon.

What did you think of your keyboard? Was it comfortable? I like the additional keys you put there, but I would prefer a reverse T-arrow cluster. Will you make this modification to the code? Otherwise, is it difficult to make these changes in closure? Also, was it difficult to program the keyboard? I am a total beginner in keyboard building so I have a lot to learn.

[Squarism]

Found this interesting evolution of the dactyl manuform. DMOTE http://viktor.eikman.se/article/the-dmote/

I find the thumb cluster very appealing!

[impaktor]

what keycap profile works best with this? DSA? SA R3? or is it fine with sculpted SA, MT3 or Cherry, too?

Granted, the "normal" dactyl has different thumb cluster, but this is what adereth said:

Yes, that pic [github dactyl glamour-shot] is all Row 3 SA caps, but I use fully contoured on my personal build. [...] I use R1 - R4 for the top 4 rows, then flipped R1 for the bottom. I've used both R3 and R2/R4 for the 2u keys on the thumbs and everything from R1 - R3 for the 1u keys on the thumbs. That group buy doesn't have enough 2u keys.

[Loligagger]

What did you think of your keyboard? Was it comfortable? I like the additional keys you put there, but I would prefer a reverse T-arrow cluster. Will you make this modification to the code? Otherwise, is it difficult to make these changes in closure? Also, was it difficult to program the keyboard? I am a total beginner in keyboard building so I have a lot to learn.

I've been using it since, it's quite comfortable. I've tried putting an arrow cluster on the bottom row, but it just looks like it'd get in the way of the palm. As for the coding, I'm sure there are some good resources out there for clojure to learn from, rather than just fiddling with it like I did. The github at the start of this thread and the qmk docs are good resources for how to compile & flash the board.

what keycap profile works best with this? DSA? SA R3? or is it fine with sculpted SA, MT3 or Cherry, too?

Having used sculpted SA and MT3, I greatly prefer the latter. The curved columns means there's little space between the tops of keycaps with SA. MT3 caps don't get in each others way near as much. The deeper dish is nice too.

[Squarism]

Completed my build today. Im feeling hopeful it can replace my current daily driver (Microsoft Natural Keyboard 4000)

Build log here. More random reflections than something helpful.

[impaktor]

@Squarism thanks for nice write up, and congratulations on completed build!

1. Do you have a bottom plate on them, or the "guts" is held in place by the table surface?

2. What keycaps are those? DSA?

3. What switches are you using? I was planning on just regular Cherry MX Brown for my own build, as that's what I have in my Kinesis AD2. I know the keyboard expert Chyrosran hates them, and prefers Alps, but I really need silent switches (for office) with low weight (against hand pain), and MX mount (for best keycap compatibility). Advice?

4. If you're switching layout I'd advice to look into some more well developed iterations on Dvorak. If I would put in the effort of switching layout, I'd look into workman.

[Squarism]

@Squarism thanks for nice write up, and congratulations on completed build!

1. Do you have a bottom plate on them, or the "guts" is held in place by the table surface?

2. What keycaps are those? DSA?

3. What switches are you using? I was planning on just regular Cherry MX Brown for my own build, as that's what I have in my Kinesis AD2. I know the keyboard expert Chyrosran hates them, and prefers Alps, but I really need silent switches (for office) with low weight (against hand pain), and MX mount (for best keycap compatibility). Advice?

4. If you're switching layout I'd advice to look into some more well developed iterations on Dvorak. If I would put in the effort of switching layout, I'd look into workman.

1. I have plates. r/crystalhand did that too. Excellent work.
2. Nope, they are XDA.
3. Kailh Silver Speed (now added this and (2) to the build log post), Not sure I went right here. They are super sensitive. I notice i do involuntary presses of other keys, pressing a distant one.
4. Thanks for your suggestion. Yeah, maybe I should consider that too. As im doing 50/50 english/non english I assume neither is optimized for me. I figured Dvorak often comes preinstalled on win/linux. Being a bit more supported could give some freedom.

[impaktor]

By the way, does anyone know the pros/cons in suitability of printing material specifically for keyboards? E.g. I've heard people prefer aluminium plates instead of steel plates, as the latter are too stiff, but this question is specifically for 3D printing materials:

Adereth used nylon for his Dactyl, I wonder why? PLA is obviously the cheapest, but is it ideal for keyboards? Anyone compared how a PETG vs. PLA vs. Nylon printed keyboard case "feels" when in use?

[vvp]

I used ABS for my KATY keyboard.
I tried PLA but it is not good. It is too stiff and harder to post-process.
I did not try anything else. ABS was good enough.

[Loligagger]

I've noticed that one of the 1u thumb caps would collide with the outer 1.5u switchplate. On the boards I've built so far I just removed a bit of material so it wouldn't hit. So I've modified the switchplate to stop the cap from hitting. I did a test print, and it seems to have done the job. The changes I made to the code were pretty minor, just adding a half "larger-plate" which didn't mirror the side bit, changing the thumb definition & the connectors to match.

[basie]

Hello, and thanks for all the work from various people that went into this. I'm just starting on my build.

I noticed after I'd soldered the columns on one side (without diodes) that the original Dactl uses diodes for columns, and the D-M uses diodes for rows. Is this because of the ProMicro vs Teensy difference? I bought a Teensy in the end, so... I guess I'm wondering if I should undo the columns I've done and repeat the process using diodes instead. Or doesn't it matter?

[impaktor]

Hi @basie, it shouldn't matter, as long as you wire it into the microcontroller correctly, and you reflect that in the firmware, is at least how I've understood it.

I hope the following quote helps:

"There are two options for soldering the diodes, all heading towards the
switch or all heading away from the switch. These two ways are called
�row-driven� or �column-driven� and here again it is cruciual for the
firmware and the actual wiring to be on the same page. ... I went for the
�row-driven� setup (visible by the direction of the diodes, the black line
being towards the key-switches). "
src: https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard/tree/master/guide

Please post images of your build, and share your experience.