367-say-hello-to-pyscript-webassembly-python.vtt

WEBVTT

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- Hello, YouTube. Hello, Fabio. - Hi, Michael. How's it going?


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- I'm very excited to talk about PyScript and WebAssembly and the work that you've been


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doing. I think it's a big deal, and it's going to be really important for us, so let's kick


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off this podcast. Fabio, welcome to Talk Python to Me.


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- Thank you. I'm really happy to be here. Thank you for having me.


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- You're welcome and I'm excited to have you here


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because I am quite excited about the PyScript announcement


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that you have put so much work into.


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I'm very excited about the possibility of finding Python


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in other places than where it has really great strongholds.


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For as much as Python is, the incredible growth of Python


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that Stack Overflow blogged about in 2017


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and all the growth in different metrics,


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but by some metrics, first most popular language


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or second, depending.


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But for all of that, there's still very notable places


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where Python is not.


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And what you're working on has the possibility


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to unlock one or more of those places


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for a whole different set of contingency


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that people have data scientists, web developers,


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UI developers, maybe just for desktop even.


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So exciting.


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- Yeah, yeah.


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I think it captured a lot of the things behind the project


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and really happy to talk about all of those


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'cause yeah, that's the reason we started it.


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So next time.


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- Yeah, and it's super exciting.


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There's been some attempts at this


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and we're gonna get into,


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I wanna sort of start our conversation about the history


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of what has come before and so on.


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Before we do though, let's just hear a bit about you.


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How'd you get into programming in Python?


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So, programming, I think I always been, I was being curious about a lot of things and


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probably doing too many things still today.


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But early on, I got into programming through friends who had computers and Commodore or


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things like that.


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We would hop on.


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I had, in my bed at some point, bought a--


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I don't even know the version.


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It was similar to Commodore, but it was in Brazil, a Gradient


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MSX or something.


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It was a local, a national branded computer.


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But it allowed you to jump in and do basic stuff


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and programming.


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So I remember trying to play with my friends


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and try to code games.


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Of course, we never got anything done.


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But I always been passionate about computers and gaming


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and stuff like that.


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So into college, I had to do a computer science degree,


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training to become a game developer.


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Also never happened because I got--


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- I think it's really interesting that so many people


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want to get into game development,


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and then they kind of see


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the sort of grinding mode of that industry, right?


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It's like both fascinating and has this great pull,


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then you're like, but it's really hard on humans as well, right?


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Yes, it's a very hard industry and very competitive.


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My brother is an indie game developer


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and a lot of sleepless nights and working hard,


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trying to get his thing out there.


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And so, yeah, I think--


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and through life, I also--


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just life happened.


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I met my now wife and started to be a little more serious


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about gaming is great, but also need to make plans


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for the future.


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So I ended up graduating and started


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to work for a company that did automation,


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like machines automation in big industries,


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mainly on pharmaceuticals.


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And I worked there for a while, and I was in the team that


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would develop high-level applications for analytics.


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And we would usually do for big pharmaceutical production


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lines, so providing all the charts and everything


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they need to say this production batch is


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valid for whatever FDA or whatever entity is approving them.


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A lot of paperwork, a lot of things.


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Eventually, at some point,


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my unit became a big part of the company.


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My, at the time,


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the CEO of the company asked, "Hey,


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do you want to start a startup,


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spin off of our company,


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just focus on software?"


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I did that.


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- That sounds like a pretty fun challenge.


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- Yes.


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- Do a startup without quite the risk


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of actually being a startup.


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- Yeah, yeah.


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- You're gonna get paid, you know what I mean?


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- Yes, you're gonna get paid.


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It also, I think the startup reality in Italy,


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I was still in Italy at the time,


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it's very different from here.


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It's really hard to have investors or to have,


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to collect money and basically you need to,


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it boils down to you investing on your own company


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and then trying to get profit within a number of years.


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- Okay, it's gotta be way more bootstrap, self-funded,


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you know, sort of thing, huh?


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Okay.


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- Yeah, so eventually--


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- Do you think that's changed or is that still the same?


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- I think it's changing.


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Yeah, in the last 10 years, I think a lot changed


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just from like the industry in general became way stronger in Europe as well.


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There's a different mindset.


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Um, and I think culturally South, South Europe has this culture of, of.


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The, a different way to see money, in investments compared


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to, to the U S for instance, or, yeah.


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Um, but eventually like this experience, led me to the Python community.


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early on. I actually got into Python not by myself. I heard about the language, I was curious, but


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someone within the company said, "Oh, the son of this customer is really big in the Python


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community. He could help us see if it's a good fit for our use case." And it was around early


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maybe 2000s, maybe 2001.


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- So early days of Python, really.


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- Yeah, yes.


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And early days of scientific Python as well.


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The whole, still the whole separation


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between NumPy and NumPy, and numeric, all of that.


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So I started, I loved the language,


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started to use it in our tools.


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It was a funny time where it was definitely unknown as a language and to get into big


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companies, it was a little tricky on the QA point of view.


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But it was interesting.


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Eventually I started to get more engaged with community, started to go to meetups in Italy


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and everything.


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And I think it was around 2004 or 2005,


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I started to go to my first conferences in Europe,


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loved the community, started to,


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how can I get involved?


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And so at that point, later, late 2000s,


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I started the, with a bunch of friends


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in the Italian community,


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we started the Python Italia Association,


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which is basically a non-profit trying to push the language.


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And the main focus was organizing the PyCon Italy conference.


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We started in 2007.


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Also that great, great community, a lot of work, but also paid back.


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You know, I remember the first year we were like, let's do this thing.


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We were very passionate and we end up in negative.


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and all the members of the society.


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Yes, so just to say that big props to everyone


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in the community doing a lot of the community work


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because it's a lot of work and it often is not paid


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or can even be out of--


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- You might have to pay to do the work.


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- Yes, yes. - Or the opposite


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of getting paid.


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- Yeah, long story short,


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I started to be also more engaged


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the European community. And we organized the EuroPython in 2011. So for three years in a row,


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and that got me into the EuroPython Society. Eventually became chairman of that, which


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basically means EuroPython Society is this European non-profit that pretty much in line with


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with the PSF, tried in different ways,


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but tries to engage with the community,


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organize conferences, raise some money to invest back


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in the community through grants and things like this.


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And then I did that for a number of years.


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So eventually, well, back in the day,


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when I was starting to learn Python,


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I also started to use a lot of the scientific libraries


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and one of them was Chaco,


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which was a graphic plotting library for Python


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that Peter Wang developed with Brian Vindman,


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I think he was in the show.


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- Peter Wang being the CEO of Anaconda.


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- Yes, today, CEO of Anaconda.


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And we met for the first time in person


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at EuroPython in Florence.


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And he was like, okay, we know each other


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from the internet for a while, like, let's get more involved.


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And then at that year,


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I was still trying to make my company be successful.


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It wasn't the right time,


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but the following year met with Travis Olyphant,


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the other founder of Anaconda in Berlin.


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And we just figured out, you know,


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like we're doing a lot of things that are similar.


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We're passionate about the same thing.


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So I eventually joined Anaconda in 2014.


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- Yeah.


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- And then eventually that following year,


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I moved to the US and joined the company full time.


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- Fantastic.


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Well, it's quite the journey from just-


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- Yes.


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- This is interesting language.


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Let me just start participating in some of the meetups.


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Meetups become conferences,


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conference become continent wide conferences.


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And I think it's a pretty good takeaway


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for people who want to get more involved in the community.


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And like every one of those steps


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probably didn't feel massive


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other than maybe moving to the US and joining in the condo.


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But, you know, they all probably seem like really iterative


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and sort of incremental, but at the same time,


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it's, it builds up this really cool place where you're


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- Yeah, actually. - Maybe building


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amazing Python things in the browser at, in the condo.


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- Right, yeah.


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My experience has very much been what, you know,


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a lot of people say, you come from the language,


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to stay for the community.


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That is really my experience.


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Yeah, and then, yeah,


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Anaconda allowed me to work on a lot of interesting things


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like is Python on the browser is the ultimate project.


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But when I joined, I started with being a core developer


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for Bokeh, which had some of that Bokeh


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is a visualization library for Python on the browser.


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So, you know--


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- And with your project you have now,


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you can still put Bokeh in the browser.


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- Exactly.


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(laughing)


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- There's a science.


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- You can stay in the browser.


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- Yes, exactly.


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Even more in the browser than before, I guess.


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All right, let's dive in.


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Now, before we dive in real quick,


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since you talked about gaming,


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wanna be in game development and your brother and so on,


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have you watched the documentary,


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"Power On, The Story of Xbox"?


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- I haven't.


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- This is a documentary that came out.


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It's a four hour show.


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You can watch it on YouTube.


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And it's like the history of Xbox.


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- And if you're just into like tech history documentaries,


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this thing is pretty interesting.


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But let's not talk about games.


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Let's talk about the birth and death of JavaScript.


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Have you seen this presentation?


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- Yes.


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- Oh my, it's so good, isn't it?


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- Yes, one of my favorites, plenty of talks, you know.


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- So, the reason I bring this up


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is there's a lot of interesting building blocks


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that I suspect many people in the Python community


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are fully unaware of, right?


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There's been all these developments


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over in the JavaScript world.


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And Gary Bernhardt did this talk at PyCon 2014,


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the birth and death of JavaScript.


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And no, I'm not mispronouncing it.


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That's how it's done in the talk.


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And it tells this hilarious story of the future


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of like weird human evolution and programming


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and JavaScript and how we don't do JavaScript,


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but everything's JavaScript.


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But what is the underlying theme


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is like a actual interesting technical history


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of how people started doing crazy stuff


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with JavaScript pre-WebAssembly.


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So there were compilers like in Scriptum


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that will compile C code to JavaScript


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and then the JavaScript Jits have become so fast.


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So one of the examples was like Chrome running Firefox


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running something else, like maybe like an embedded Windows.


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I can't remember what it was,


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but just there were like layers and layers of JavaScript


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doing wild stuff that we wouldn't imagine otherwise, right?


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>> Yeah. I think that's part of also one of the reasons with Peter,


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we said, "Okay, this is the right time to try this out,"


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because the browsers became so powerful.


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They are basically, if you see from a different perspective,


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they are mini virtual machines.


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They have their own file system,


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they have their own isolation, networking,


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a lot of the things you can really see that as a VM.


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>> Like the JVM,


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like the.NET CLR and to some degree like Python, right?


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>> Right.


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>> The CPython on a regular machine.


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>> Yeah. You can run full operating systems


00:15:15.100 --> 00:15:18.040
on top of browser.


00:15:18.040 --> 00:15:22.120
Honestly, the explosion of interesting things in


00:15:22.120 --> 00:15:25.360
the last few years have been crazy


00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:28.640
and doesn't seem to decelerate at all.


00:15:28.640 --> 00:15:33.320
So the level of maturity is kind of encouraging.


00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:34.160
- It is.


00:15:34.160 --> 00:15:36.760
And the performance, while not native performance,


00:15:36.760 --> 00:15:37.820
is not that far off.


00:15:37.820 --> 00:15:40.360
At least some of the examples that Gary gave,


00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:43.240
it was like 50%.


00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:45.120
You could run Doom at 50% speed


00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:46.640
when you compile it to the browser


00:15:46.640 --> 00:15:48.600
or something insane like that.


00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:49.520
- Right.


00:15:49.520 --> 00:15:50.480
Yeah, it's good enough.


00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:52.200
I mean- - It's more than good enough.


00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:55.440
Yeah, I mean, because the alternative so often is,


00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:57.240
well, we're gonna send a request over to the server


00:15:57.240 --> 00:15:59.320
and that might be native and fast,


00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:00.720
but it's also network latency


00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:02.400
and it's also a shared compute resource


00:16:02.400 --> 00:16:04.000
with a thousand other people.


00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:07.240
And here you are sitting on your MacBook Pro Max


00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:10.760
with 16 cores, you know, and you're just waiting.


00:16:10.760 --> 00:16:12.720
- Yeah, yeah.


00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:15.800
That's actually one aspect that a lot of people


00:16:15.800 --> 00:16:16.840
don't consider.


00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:21.840
There is, you know, there's the performance


00:16:21.880 --> 00:16:24.320
in terms of how fast it goes.


00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:27.700
But there are a few aspects that you also


00:16:27.700 --> 00:16:31.160
need to consider overall in the overall experience.


00:16:31.160 --> 00:16:35.040
How long for the developer side of point of view,


00:16:35.040 --> 00:16:37.240
how long before they can actually


00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.300
get in front of something usable or speeding up


00:16:40.300 --> 00:16:42.240
their environments and things like this.


00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:46.800
Then there's loading time versus execution time,


00:16:46.800 --> 00:16:47.840
also very different.


00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:52.840
but from the eyes of the user, it kind of sums up.


00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:58.880
So there are so many small niches or small verticals


00:16:58.880 --> 00:17:04.520
that we can work on in the whole JavaScript


00:17:04.520 --> 00:17:07.080
or browser ecosystem that I think we can make


00:17:07.080 --> 00:17:10.160
a lot of improvements in the next few years.


00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.680
- Yeah, you think of grid computing


00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:15.160
and distributed computing,


00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:21.160
part of the power of the cloud is that I could just go say, I need more.


00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:24.920
We have four servers, but a bunch of people showed up.


00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:29.600
So give me 20 servers and scale my Kubernetes cluster across that for now.


00:17:29.600 --> 00:17:36.720
And four to 20 is amazing, but four to a hundred million is really different.


00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:41.320
If, if we can push a lot of that compute to everybody's personal computers,


00:17:41.560 --> 00:17:46.560
Even our iPhones are unimaginably fast little devices.


00:17:46.560 --> 00:17:49.060
Like the whole M1 crazy transition


00:17:49.060 --> 00:17:53.060
is basically an iPhone chip with more voltage


00:17:53.060 --> 00:17:53.960
and better cooling.


00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:55.860
There's not much more to it than that.


00:17:55.860 --> 00:18:01.640
So finding ways to execute more of our code


00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:05.320
on the clients is pretty interesting.


00:18:05.320 --> 00:18:08.040
- Yeah, totally agree.


00:18:08.040 --> 00:18:11.020
We already see that even on the server side,


00:18:11.020 --> 00:18:16.020
you know, projects like Bask, we're very popular,


00:18:16.020 --> 00:18:19.820
pushing the computing on nodes


00:18:19.820 --> 00:18:22.340
and you know, the distributed architecture


00:18:22.340 --> 00:18:25.020
is very powerful and is needed.


00:18:25.020 --> 00:18:29.040
You know, we can have the possibility to make the same thing


00:18:29.040 --> 00:18:31.860
on the client side on the browser as well.


00:18:31.860 --> 00:18:33.120
- Yeah. - Yeah.


00:18:33.120 --> 00:18:36.540
- Dask for those out there who don't know


00:18:36.540 --> 00:18:41.340
is a pandas-like, NumPy-like API that you can just say,


00:18:41.340 --> 00:18:43.380
but run it distributed across these machines


00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:45.700
on the cluster automatically.


00:18:45.700 --> 00:18:48.860
You know, Matthew Rocklin started Coiled,


00:18:48.860 --> 00:18:50.820
and you know, former Anaconda alumni,


00:18:50.820 --> 00:18:52.280
a lot of tie-ins there.


00:18:52.280 --> 00:18:55.180
- Yeah. - Yeah, cool.


00:18:55.180 --> 00:18:58.220
And so this is, it's not the same thing in any way,


00:18:58.220 --> 00:19:00.620
but it is a way that really takes Python


00:19:00.620 --> 00:19:04.140
and gives it way more compute resources, potentially.


00:19:04.140 --> 00:19:08.220
So are there any particular,


00:19:08.220 --> 00:19:11.180
I sort of set the stage with this compile to C and stuff,


00:19:11.180 --> 00:19:13.980
but is there any other sort of building blocks


00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:18.520
in the history of how we got to what you all built


00:19:18.520 --> 00:19:20.920
in the JavaScript stack that you wanna call out?


00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:23.220
- Yes, definitely.


00:19:23.220 --> 00:19:26.980
I think one major thing that,


00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:30.940
you know, I wanna give props as much as we can


00:19:30.940 --> 00:19:32.940
to the Pyodide project,


00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:37.940
which is a runtime for Python on the browser.


00:19:37.940 --> 00:19:40.340
And they've been extremely,


00:19:40.340 --> 00:19:45.340
like one of the reasons we could work on PyScript


00:19:45.340 --> 00:19:49.580
was because it has a level of maturity


00:19:49.580 --> 00:19:54.580
and performance right now that is really stable, right?


00:19:54.580 --> 00:19:59.780
And they actually also been,


00:19:59.780 --> 00:20:03.940
They're a great community, very supportive.


00:20:03.940 --> 00:20:07.180
So a big shout out to them,


00:20:07.180 --> 00:20:12.180
Hood and Roman specifically, the two main core developers.


00:20:12.180 --> 00:20:17.300
And the whole work underneath that project as well,


00:20:17.300 --> 00:20:21.860
you know, like the progress of the Emscripten


00:20:21.860 --> 00:20:23.680
and Wasm and WebAssembly,


00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:26.180
there's a huge community behind that.


00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:28.060
So actually that's one of the principles


00:20:28.060 --> 00:20:31.620
that we tried to, at the core of FireScript,


00:20:31.620 --> 00:20:36.620
is we don't want to reinvent anything that we don't need.


00:20:36.620 --> 00:20:40.740
We want to be really additive to the ecosystem,


00:20:40.740 --> 00:20:45.100
glue things together, provide nice and easy APIs


00:20:45.100 --> 00:20:49.180
and high-level APIs so that we can lower the barrier,


00:20:49.180 --> 00:20:51.660
basically give more accessibility to the tools,


00:20:51.660 --> 00:20:55.620
to the users, rather than reinventing something


00:20:55.620 --> 00:20:57.180
that's not needed.


00:20:57.180 --> 00:20:59.680
- Yeah, so PyIodide.


00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:03.220
This project is a cool project.


00:21:03.220 --> 00:21:08.220
I interviewed Michael from the project


00:21:08.220 --> 00:21:11.620
about this way back, a couple of years ago,


00:21:11.620 --> 00:21:14.660
but yeah, it uses this Emscripten


00:21:14.660 --> 00:21:19.460
and WebAssembly story to basically compile


00:21:19.460 --> 00:21:23.700
a port of CPython to run in WebAssembly in the browser,


00:21:23.700 --> 00:21:25.900
which is fantastic, right?


00:21:25.900 --> 00:21:27.900
I mean, that's, in some degree,


00:21:27.900 --> 00:21:31.220
that's the building block that you all really needed, right?


00:21:31.220 --> 00:21:32.740
- Yes, yeah, definitely.


00:21:32.740 --> 00:21:35.180
Yeah, I must mention also, yeah,


00:21:35.180 --> 00:21:39.060
Michael Dropbaum and Christian Himes,


00:21:39.060 --> 00:21:40.860
who has been also pushing a lot


00:21:40.860 --> 00:21:43.780
of the Python on Wasm ecosystem.


00:21:43.780 --> 00:21:44.740
- Yes.


00:21:44.740 --> 00:21:46.380
- Yeah, there's a lot of good energy


00:21:46.380 --> 00:21:47.820
in the Python community


00:21:47.820 --> 00:21:51.300
to actually try to push that together, right?


00:21:51.300 --> 00:21:54.180
- Yeah, and also Brett Cannon has been a big proponent


00:21:54.180 --> 00:21:55.620
of making that happen.


00:21:55.620 --> 00:21:58.620
I don't know how directly involved with the day-to-day,


00:21:58.620 --> 00:21:59.900
like let's make it compile,


00:21:59.900 --> 00:22:02.900
but I know he's been really pushing on that effort as well.


00:22:02.900 --> 00:22:06.020
And so let's get to your announcement.


00:22:06.020 --> 00:22:08.800
I mean, I didn't go to PyCon this year,


00:22:08.800 --> 00:22:12.500
mostly just not ready to be in a room


00:22:12.500 --> 00:22:14.900
with people from around the world for that long.


00:22:14.900 --> 00:22:17.660
And I thought to give the world a chance to try it out,


00:22:17.660 --> 00:22:19.340
then I'll see how it goes and do it next year.


00:22:19.340 --> 00:22:21.100
But I missed everyone there.


00:22:21.100 --> 00:22:24.540
But I got a lot of messages.


00:22:24.540 --> 00:22:27.180
One was friends saying, why aren't you here?


00:22:27.180 --> 00:22:28.660
Why can't we have a beer together?


00:22:28.660 --> 00:22:30.180
Sorry, I really missed that.


00:22:30.180 --> 00:22:33.020
And then the other is, have you heard of PyScript?


00:22:33.020 --> 00:22:34.860
Oh my goodness, this was the announcement.


00:22:34.860 --> 00:22:37.200
Like this, if there's any big piece of news


00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:40.460
that came out from presentations and talks and announcements,


00:22:40.460 --> 00:22:41.660
like this is the one.


00:22:41.660 --> 00:22:45.300
So PyScript, people can guess, but what is it?


00:22:45.300 --> 00:22:46.260
Tell us about this.


00:22:46.260 --> 00:22:51.940
- So PyScript is a framework that allows users


00:22:51.940 --> 00:22:56.900
to basically use HTML tags to define,


00:22:56.900 --> 00:23:03.980
to run Python code and define different components.


00:23:03.980 --> 00:23:07.860
Those can be related to executing code,


00:23:07.860 --> 00:23:11.980
but also providing, defining your environments,


00:23:11.980 --> 00:23:15.160
what packages you want to install, et cetera,


00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:20.160
as well as some UI components that make things easier


00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:28.160
make things easier for users that are not familiar with HTML and CSS and all the styling


00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:39.360
of things. It's based on a Python runtime, which is Pyodide, that allows Python execution


00:23:39.360 --> 00:23:44.360
on the browser and it has interoperability capabilities


00:23:44.360 --> 00:23:50.520
with JavaScript as well.


00:23:50.520 --> 00:23:54.660
So you can use both Python libraries


00:23:54.660 --> 00:23:59.080
as well as JavaScript libraries in your code.


00:23:59.080 --> 00:24:00.400
- Yeah, this is really great.


00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:02.920
And if people go to pyscript.net and scroll down


00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:06.120
and what is Pyscript, it really calls all these out.


00:24:06.120 --> 00:24:08.640
Like if you're trying to present this to your boss


00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:10.000
to your team, you're like, this is something cool


00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:11.720
we should check out, like, they should definitely


00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:13.440
go to that list right there, yeah?


00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:14.760
- Yes, yeah.


00:24:14.760 --> 00:24:18.880
And that is, you know, the most immediate list of things.


00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:23.160
You know, there's a lot that we're working on


00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:27.680
and trying to provide as a tooling,


00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:31.400
but it's very, very new and very, you know,


00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:33.480
green, if I must say.


00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:35.320
So, yeah.


00:24:35.320 --> 00:24:38.360
- So maybe don't totally release a product on it just yet?


00:24:38.360 --> 00:24:43.840
Yes, definitely very bad idea to release a product on this,


00:24:43.840 --> 00:24:48.200
you know, expect APIs, code and features to change.


00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:56.440
Actually, it's one of the things that we intentionally talked about before Python was,


00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:01.120
you know, should we have a versioning in place or something like this,


00:25:01.120 --> 00:25:06.520
so that, you know, you would expect any project to go that goes out there to have versions and everything.


00:25:06.520 --> 00:25:12.160
We intentionally said no, let's wait because it is,


00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:18.800
or let's put a version like do not use in production.0.0.0.1.


00:25:18.800 --> 00:25:24.760
>> Yes. Mostly because with this,


00:25:24.760 --> 00:25:28.880
we wanted to have something that is working,


00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:30.700
that is useful,


00:25:30.700 --> 00:25:36.160
that it can be used by and hacked on by users day one.


00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:41.160
but also give the vision that we have in mind


00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:44.000
and for people to see the possibilities.


00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:47.620
And that was the main focus for the project until PyCon.


00:25:47.620 --> 00:25:51.200
Now, a lot of the following things


00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:55.600
are just the things that we want to achieve


00:25:55.600 --> 00:25:58.120
in order to enable a community.


00:25:58.120 --> 00:26:02.080
And this is an open source project.


00:26:02.080 --> 00:26:04.640
It's not an, it started at Anaconda,


00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:05.960
but it's an open source project.


00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:09.760
We want to have a strong community,


00:26:09.760 --> 00:26:13.220
have contributors beyond the Anaconda team,


00:26:13.220 --> 00:26:16.360
and do it together, right?


00:26:16.360 --> 00:26:17.480
- Yeah, that was one of my questions


00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:20.960
I wanted to ask you about is,


00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:23.020
it sounds like you all have a very strong vision


00:26:23.020 --> 00:26:25.560
of what this should be and where you want it to go.


00:26:25.560 --> 00:26:27.760
- Yes.


00:26:27.760 --> 00:26:28.580
- But from what you just said,


00:26:28.580 --> 00:26:31.380
I was wondering, does that mean it's more source open


00:26:31.380 --> 00:26:32.220
than open source?


00:26:32.220 --> 00:26:34.040
And like, we're driving this way and we'll take PRs


00:26:34.040 --> 00:26:35.880
as long as it's on our roadmap,


00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:40.640
or how open are you to people just jumping in


00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:43.160
and giving ideas and trying to build it up?


00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:46.240
- Yeah, great question.


00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:47.140
We are very open.


00:26:47.140 --> 00:26:51.120
So it's worth also saying that right now


00:26:51.120 --> 00:26:55.360
we are at the stage where I don't think we've made it


00:26:55.360 --> 00:27:01.520
that easy for people to onboard and understand the vision,


00:27:01.520 --> 00:27:06.060
understand the project and actually be able to contribute.


00:27:06.060 --> 00:27:07.600
We're missing a lot of documentation.


00:27:07.600 --> 00:27:11.580
So one of the biggest pushes that we've been having


00:27:11.580 --> 00:27:16.420
after PyCon is to actually build up the documentation


00:27:16.420 --> 00:27:20.480
around those things so that, you know,


00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:23.480
anyone contributing have a easier time on boarding,


00:27:23.480 --> 00:27:27.280
understand the visions and can give feedback


00:27:27.280 --> 00:27:29.700
based on those things.


00:27:29.700 --> 00:27:34.700
So as soon as we are also growing the team behind it,


00:27:34.700 --> 00:27:38.540
so there's a lot of small things that we are preparing


00:27:38.540 --> 00:27:43.540
for being a community that is on itself


00:27:43.540 --> 00:27:49.900
or itself organized and everything.


00:27:49.900 --> 00:27:54.900
So overall, I think that this is really a community project.


00:27:54.900 --> 00:27:56.460
- Sure.


00:27:56.460 --> 00:27:57.300
Speaking of community,


00:27:57.300 --> 00:27:59.180
let me just pull up the GitHub page.


00:27:59.180 --> 00:28:02.160
- So you're just shy of 10,000 stars.


00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:03.000
- Yeah, crazy.


00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:05.020
- I don't know how old it is,


00:28:05.020 --> 00:28:08.460
but how long has this repo been public?


00:28:08.460 --> 00:28:09.820
Not that long.


00:28:09.820 --> 00:28:11.660
- No, we actually made it public


00:28:11.660 --> 00:28:14.900
10 minutes in during Peter's talk.


00:28:14.900 --> 00:28:15.740
So it--


00:28:15.740 --> 00:28:19.700
- Okay, so you're like half a flask almost


00:28:19.700 --> 00:28:24.180
or half of closing in on FastAPI levels


00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:25.060
of numbers of stars.


00:28:25.060 --> 00:28:27.060
There's a lot of interest in this.


00:28:27.060 --> 00:28:29.380
- Yes, which is really exciting,


00:28:29.380 --> 00:28:32.020
but also it's somehow overwhelming, right?


00:28:32.020 --> 00:28:32.860
Like, I'll be very honest.


00:28:32.860 --> 00:28:34.780
- Yeah, probably there's a lot of expectations as well.


00:28:34.780 --> 00:28:35.700
Right?


00:28:35.700 --> 00:28:36.660
- Yes, yes.


00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:41.060
And so we are aware of all of that.


00:28:41.060 --> 00:28:44.500
I think the main thing really for us is to,


00:28:44.500 --> 00:28:50.460
you know, we wanna make sure that our users have patience


00:28:50.460 --> 00:28:55.460
because we're trying to get to a stable state


00:28:55.460 --> 00:28:57.140
or at least--


00:28:57.140 --> 00:28:59.340
- It's less than two weeks old, come on.


00:28:59.340 --> 00:29:00.580
- Exactly, yes.


00:29:00.580 --> 00:29:06.860
I could talk about this for hours,


00:29:06.860 --> 00:29:12.940
but at the same time, we wanna make sure that it's usable


00:29:12.940 --> 00:29:17.460
and we wanna collect users' feedback to make it better.


00:29:17.460 --> 00:29:20.780
Actually, one thing that is very important


00:29:20.780 --> 00:29:24.660
is that it got a lot of interest


00:29:24.660 --> 00:29:27.060
and a lot of excitement from the Python community


00:29:27.060 --> 00:29:29.580
and some of the web community as well.


00:29:29.580 --> 00:29:34.180
But I really wanna make sure


00:29:34.180 --> 00:29:37.100
that everyone understands the picture,


00:29:37.100 --> 00:29:39.180
the full picture is what Peter said,


00:29:39.180 --> 00:29:42.040
like programming for the 99%.


00:29:42.040 --> 00:29:45.020
So beyond developers,


00:29:45.020 --> 00:29:48.920
how can we have a tool


00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:51.700
that students can learn very fast,


00:29:51.700 --> 00:29:54.220
get to learning coding very fast,


00:29:54.220 --> 00:29:56.620
or even non-developers.


00:29:56.620 --> 00:30:00.100
I would love my mom to write her recipe book with MyScript,


00:30:00.100 --> 00:30:02.220
because it's that easy.


00:30:02.220 --> 00:30:03.640
And thinking about the possibility


00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:08.100
of shipping that in your phone or your mobile,


00:30:08.100 --> 00:30:11.020
users in developing countries that do not have access


00:30:11.020 --> 00:30:13.820
to computers and things like this, but they have a phone.


00:30:13.820 --> 00:30:17.940
What we also hope is that the social impact


00:30:17.940 --> 00:30:21.700
of a tool like this could be very big.


00:30:21.700 --> 00:30:24.060
One can dream.


00:30:24.060 --> 00:30:25.460
- Yeah, one can dream for sure.


00:30:25.460 --> 00:30:29.220
So something maybe you could take inspiration from


00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:31.300
is the Swift Playgrounds.


00:30:31.300 --> 00:30:33.940
Right, it seems like you can model that pretty well.


00:30:33.940 --> 00:30:37.140
And I feel like Swift was largely borrowing from Python


00:30:37.140 --> 00:30:38.080
in a lot of its ways.


00:30:38.080 --> 00:30:40.740
So it's time to borrow a little back from Swift.


00:30:40.740 --> 00:30:43.060
For people who don't know, Swift Playgrounds


00:30:43.060 --> 00:30:45.500
is like a little bit like a REPL,


00:30:45.500 --> 00:30:47.080
a little bit like Jupyter,


00:30:47.080 --> 00:30:52.080
but then on the right you get kind of more iOS outputs,


00:30:52.520 --> 00:30:56.440
like little widgets and graphs and animations and whatever.


00:30:56.440 --> 00:31:00.640
But it seems like that could be a similar way


00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:02.120
that's sort of like Jupyter,


00:31:02.120 --> 00:31:06.140
but also a little more web playful.


00:31:06.140 --> 00:31:08.460
- Right, yes.


00:31:08.460 --> 00:31:13.320
And I would say we have no shame


00:31:13.320 --> 00:31:16.320
into like borrowing from others, right?


00:31:16.320 --> 00:31:20.760
I think that actually is how you can grow well,


00:31:20.760 --> 00:31:24.960
like take what's successful from this community


00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:26.040
or this language, et cetera,


00:31:26.040 --> 00:31:29.440
and try to use that to make a better tool.


00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:32.400
- Yeah, I mean, because it's so early,


00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:35.100
because it's so fresh, like one of the drawbacks,


00:31:35.100 --> 00:31:37.440
call it a drawback, one of the temporary limitations


00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:40.560
is people can't just jump in and build the next version


00:31:40.560 --> 00:31:43.160
of Gmail or whatever with it right now.


00:31:43.160 --> 00:31:46.280
But a benefit is so many people wanna contribute


00:31:46.280 --> 00:31:49.040
to open source, and they're like, I love Django,


00:31:49.040 --> 00:31:50.000
I'm gonna contribute to that,


00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:57.840
I love Jupyter. I want to contribute to that. And then it's such a complex, highly leveraged,


00:31:57.840 --> 00:32:02.740
very polished system that like, well, contributing to that means you have like an insane level


00:32:02.740 --> 00:32:06.800
of understanding to make this little change that won't break everything else. Whereas


00:32:06.800 --> 00:32:11.000
this is pretty fresh, right? So if somebody wants to come along and build something like


00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:16.480
a Swift playground equivalent, the doors open for and I'm not sure how much you want to


00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:19.900
But like the door is open for people to be,


00:32:19.900 --> 00:32:24.260
to grab ideas that are lower hanging fruit at the moment.


00:32:24.260 --> 00:32:26.500
- Yeah, yes.


00:32:26.500 --> 00:32:31.500
And the idea is also to allow users to extend


00:32:31.500 --> 00:32:36.500
the tool itself and without having to change the tool,


00:32:36.500 --> 00:32:41.020
like with extensions and things like this.


00:32:41.020 --> 00:32:46.020
Like in my mind, I see that as a sort of Minecraft


00:32:46.180 --> 00:32:47.700
for programmers, right?


00:32:47.700 --> 00:32:50.580
Like you can build your own blocks


00:32:50.580 --> 00:32:52.980
and then share with others and then they can share.


00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:56.100
- Right, check out my mod pack for this thing or whatever.


00:32:56.100 --> 00:32:57.660
- Yes, yeah, yeah.


00:32:57.660 --> 00:33:00.300
And yeah, the idea is to make it well,


00:33:00.300 --> 00:33:03.820
powerful, but also fun and hackable.


00:33:03.820 --> 00:33:04.900
- Yeah, very cool.


00:33:04.900 --> 00:33:07.220
All right, now let's talk about,


00:33:07.220 --> 00:33:08.740
I know we talked to some of these things here,


00:33:08.740 --> 00:33:11.260
but let me just dive in a little bit on the bullet points


00:33:11.260 --> 00:33:14.420
to kind of do a wrap up summary


00:33:14.420 --> 00:33:16.400
before we move into the coding.


00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:17.880
So Python in the browser,


00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:22.300
this means it runs 100% in the browser


00:33:22.300 --> 00:33:24.880
through primarily WebAssembly,


00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:27.800
which is leveraging the Pyodide project, yeah?


00:33:27.800 --> 00:33:30.200
- Right, that's right. - Okay.


00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:32.760
And the WebAssembly stuff runs,


00:33:32.760 --> 00:33:35.480
I think, even better than the JavaScript,


00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:36.320
(laughs)


00:33:36.320 --> 00:33:39.200
the C code compiled to JavaScript,


00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:41.960
'cause this is still more of a binary form and whatnot.


00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.520
That's pretty excellent.


00:33:45.520 --> 00:33:47.920
One of the things that really inspires me here,


00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:51.880
you spoke about this will allow us to do things


00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:54.220
on our phones and on lower end computers


00:33:54.220 --> 00:33:55.360
and do other things like that


00:33:55.360 --> 00:33:56.920
where like now we have this possibility


00:33:56.920 --> 00:33:59.900
just if you have a browser, you can kind of do it.


00:33:59.900 --> 00:34:01.320
I totally agree and that's great.


00:34:01.320 --> 00:34:05.840
But what really gets me excited about where this could go


00:34:05.840 --> 00:34:10.840
is progressive web apps or something even like ElectronJS


00:34:10.840 --> 00:34:17.360
even like electron JS, right, where I build like a true desktop application like VS Code


00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:23.200
or slack or whatever, but instead of having to write everything in JavaScript, you know,


00:34:23.200 --> 00:34:27.640
write it in Python, right? And just got to include the two meg or three meg wasm file


00:34:27.640 --> 00:34:32.320
with your what is already a massive Chrome distribution. So no one would know anyway.


00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:39.480
Right? Anyway, so yeah, there's like this way to sort of, this is what I was hinting


00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:41.800
at the beginning as well like oh my gosh,


00:34:41.800 --> 00:34:45.080
we can have things in our dock that are like modern looking


00:34:45.080 --> 00:34:48.080
that are based on Python.


00:34:48.080 --> 00:34:49.680
Easily.


00:34:49.680 --> 00:34:50.880
Very exciting.


00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:52.120
Yes.


00:34:52.120 --> 00:35:01.280
And the whole story about the native apps and mobile


00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:04.520
and whatnot.


00:35:04.520 --> 00:35:07.920
Russell Keith McGee, maintainer of B-Ware,


00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:11.320
is he just joined Anaconda a few months ago.


00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:13.220
>> He did. I didn't know that. Excellent.


00:35:13.220 --> 00:35:16.480
>> Yes. He's been looking at the project,


00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:18.760
collaborating, contributing with some stuff.


00:35:18.760 --> 00:35:21.140
He actually made an example.


00:35:21.140 --> 00:35:24.380
One of the examples is written in Toga,


00:35:24.380 --> 00:35:28.640
which is the Beware Toolkit for UI design and stuff like this.


00:35:28.640 --> 00:35:30.560
It's built in Toga,


00:35:30.560 --> 00:35:33.480
but it has a PyScript backend so that it


00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:37.980
can render to PyScript directly.


00:35:37.980 --> 00:35:43.100
Pretty much like it can build for iOS or Android or Mac.


00:35:43.100 --> 00:35:47.200
But another interesting story is the opposite.


00:35:47.200 --> 00:35:51.680
Can we have a PyScript app that then Toga can transform


00:35:51.680 --> 00:35:55.680
into an electron-like app that you can just run on your mobile?


00:35:55.680 --> 00:35:58.240
>> Do it. Please do it.


00:35:58.240 --> 00:36:00.720
So many people will be happy.


00:36:00.720 --> 00:36:04.160
- Yeah, if you're listening, that's for you.


00:36:04.160 --> 00:36:05.960
- Yes, oh my goodness.


00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:08.560
Look, I think there are plenty of negatives


00:36:08.560 --> 00:36:13.200
about electron apps, like why does my password manager


00:36:13.200 --> 00:36:15.920
need 400 megs of RAM to run?


00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:20.300
But we have such a limited set of options


00:36:20.300 --> 00:36:23.320
for desktop and mobile apps in Python


00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:26.920
that for now, that would be massively welcome


00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:28.520
to do something like this.


00:36:28.520 --> 00:36:29.980
And then there's always possibilities of,


00:36:29.980 --> 00:36:31.540
well, do you actually have to ship Chrome


00:36:31.540 --> 00:36:32.860
in some massive runtime,


00:36:32.860 --> 00:36:34.460
or could there be a smaller host?


00:36:34.460 --> 00:36:38.300
There's layers of improvement.


00:36:38.300 --> 00:36:40.560
All right, next one, Python ecosystem.


00:36:40.560 --> 00:36:41.900
When you think about the history,


00:36:41.900 --> 00:36:43.860
this is not the first or the second time


00:36:43.860 --> 00:36:46.100
that someone has done Python in the browser.


00:36:46.100 --> 00:36:50.300
If you're familiar with, are you familiar with Anvil?


00:36:50.300 --> 00:36:51.320
- Yes.


00:36:51.320 --> 00:36:56.320
- So I had Meredith Ahn from Anvil


00:36:57.660 --> 00:36:59.960
to talk about both Anvil one time


00:36:59.960 --> 00:37:03.360
and then I think it was Sculpt, which is what they use.


00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:05.400
And Anvil has both a backend and frontend


00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:09.720
that's all Python and really interesting project.


00:37:09.720 --> 00:37:14.720
And they were using a JavaScript variant called Sculpt.


00:37:14.720 --> 00:37:16.520
And there's, I think,


00:37:16.520 --> 00:37:19.080
Brython is another one that you could choose.


00:37:19.080 --> 00:37:23.840
But one of the challenges of that is it's Python-like,


00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:24.680
right?


00:37:24.680 --> 00:37:26.340
It's not really the Python runtime.


00:37:26.340 --> 00:37:28.420
Do you maybe want to talk about how that differs


00:37:28.420 --> 00:37:33.320
from the Python ecosystem, Python runtime that you all have?


00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:34.160
- Right.


00:37:34.160 --> 00:37:37.340
That's exactly the difference, right?


00:37:37.340 --> 00:37:39.100
Like, and probably the PyDive folks


00:37:39.100 --> 00:37:42.020
would have a lot more to say,


00:37:42.020 --> 00:37:43.620
but the big difference is what you said.


00:37:43.620 --> 00:37:47.700
Like, it's Python-like, and it will mimic--


00:37:47.700 --> 00:37:48.740
- For example, numerically,


00:37:48.740 --> 00:37:50.740
like JavaScript doesn't have integers,


00:37:50.740 --> 00:37:53.840
so your Python has to somehow fake integers


00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:56.400
if you're gonna do things like that, right?


00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:57.740
- Right, yes.


00:37:57.740 --> 00:38:01.660
So it's mimicking what you would expect with Python,


00:38:01.660 --> 00:38:03.160
but with the JavaScript.


00:38:03.160 --> 00:38:09.200
And it's not really a full-blown Python interpreter


00:38:09.200 --> 00:38:12.980
that you can also install your packages.


00:38:12.980 --> 00:38:17.320
The whole Python ecosystem is not supported.


00:38:17.320 --> 00:38:18.660
And I think that's the big difference


00:38:18.660 --> 00:38:21.840
that was the differentiator for Pyodide.


00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:25.040
And now that, you know, CPython actually compiles


00:38:25.040 --> 00:38:30.040
to Wasm through Emscripten, it's very exciting.


00:38:30.040 --> 00:38:34.320
- It's running the same VM or the same runtime


00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:38.040
that we get with CPython on our desktops, more or less.


00:38:38.040 --> 00:38:39.240
Like a cut down limited version,


00:38:39.240 --> 00:38:42.000
but it's not like a weird transpiled to JavaScript


00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.360
and then run it thing.


00:38:43.360 --> 00:38:44.640
- Yes, correct.


00:38:44.640 --> 00:38:48.800
With a few caveats, right?


00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:53.200
That's one of the things that I think is worth mentioning.


00:38:53.200 --> 00:39:00.640
It's the same CPython code and it's the same thing you get in your local installation.


00:39:00.640 --> 00:39:05.340
A few things are different just because the browser as a VM,


00:39:05.340 --> 00:39:07.000
they work differently.


00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:10.180
File system is different on the browser.


00:39:10.180 --> 00:39:12.440
>> Threading probably.


00:39:12.440 --> 00:39:17.000
>> Threading, multiprocessing, pipes, and things like this.


00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:20.560
There are solutions for some of these


00:39:20.560 --> 00:39:25.560
that will require work and probably upstream


00:39:25.560 --> 00:39:30.760
with some of the parts of the standard libraries


00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:33.080
or the third party packages,


00:39:33.080 --> 00:39:36.080
but they are just different.


00:39:36.080 --> 00:39:38.000
So we need to account for that.


00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:39.200
- Sure.


00:39:39.200 --> 00:39:40.040
All right.


00:39:40.040 --> 00:39:43.520
So you can use, it says many popular Python packages


00:39:43.520 --> 00:39:46.240
and stuff in the scientific data stack.


00:39:46.240 --> 00:39:50.360
- Question from the audience from Christopher Tyler says,


00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:53.240
my very limited understanding since you're using Pyodide


00:39:53.240 --> 00:39:55.640
is that there's a limitation on the libraries you can use,


00:39:55.640 --> 00:40:00.000
meaning can you import your own custom libraries?


00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:01.040
Generally it's yes, right?


00:40:01.040 --> 00:40:03.640
But not universally, isn't it?


00:40:03.640 --> 00:40:05.960
- Right, that's a great question.


00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:10.960
So you can, let's talk first about the standard libraries


00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:14.880
and the third party libraries that you have,


00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:15.840
PyPI, et cetera.


00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:19.040
So PyAOdyte ships with the sender library


00:40:19.040 --> 00:40:21.920
plus a set of packages that they ported.


00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:28.920
Most of these, they use C extensions and things like that.


00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:31.620
So they need to be compiled.


00:40:31.620 --> 00:40:36.340
And so the PyOdyte team took that work and took care of it.


00:40:36.340 --> 00:40:38.200
They're included in the distribution.


00:40:38.200 --> 00:40:43.400
There is a way for you to also build packages


00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:45.480
that depend on C extensions.


00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:50.360
they have a nice guide in their website that you can follow


00:40:50.360 --> 00:40:52.320
and they will help with that.


00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:58.080
In general, you should expect pure Python packages to work


00:40:58.080 --> 00:41:01.100
if you pip install them, right?


00:41:01.100 --> 00:41:06.100
The caveat there is, do they have other dependencies


00:41:06.100 --> 00:41:09.960
that depend on C extensions


00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:13.140
and that will cascade in what work?


00:41:13.140 --> 00:41:16.280
Or do they rely on some of the things


00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:20.800
that I mentioned before, like multi-processing and sockets


00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:21.920
and stuff?


00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:25.080
So in that case, the package may install,


00:41:25.080 --> 00:41:29.040
but it will raise an error because multi-processing is not


00:41:29.040 --> 00:41:30.080
supported or other--


00:41:30.080 --> 00:41:33.680
>>What about simple stuff like async and await?


00:41:33.680 --> 00:41:35.400
>>Great question.


00:41:35.400 --> 00:41:36.280
That is--


00:41:36.280 --> 00:41:38.200
>>It's not-- from a like--


00:41:38.200 --> 00:41:40.480
what it expects of the operating system is pretty low,


00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:43.640
but it's also pretty advanced.


00:41:43.640 --> 00:41:46.400
- Right, that is more of,


00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:48.800
I think it's less of the packaging problem


00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:52.360
and more of a philosophical problem


00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:55.440
in terms of how you compare Python to JavaScript,


00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:57.480
for instance, right?


00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:02.080
JavaScript, even if it's synchronous as a language,


00:42:02.080 --> 00:42:05.720
it has built the idioms over time


00:42:05.720 --> 00:42:08.760
to always try to be asynchronous.


00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:10.460
because for obvious reasons,


00:42:10.460 --> 00:42:14.140
you don't want to block your browser


00:42:14.140 --> 00:42:16.520
or if you're doing something in your page


00:42:16.520 --> 00:42:18.760
and you block your Chrome on your phone.


00:42:18.760 --> 00:42:21.420
- And that way it seems like it should be a fantastic match


00:42:21.420 --> 00:42:22.960
for async and await.


00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:23.800
- Yes.


00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:25.360
- The way to know, oh yeah.


00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:27.000
- Yes, it is a fantastic match


00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:30.360
and almost everything that you do that would be blocking


00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:32.620
in JavaScript, you would async await.


00:42:32.620 --> 00:42:37.140
In Python, we are used to do everything blocking.


00:42:37.140 --> 00:42:40.180
And then when we want to do explicitly,


00:42:40.180 --> 00:42:43.740
we just, we use async I/O or something different.


00:42:43.740 --> 00:42:48.340
So I think on that side of things,


00:42:48.340 --> 00:42:51.780
it's more of a how you develop your Python code


00:42:51.780 --> 00:42:52.860
rather than the...


00:42:52.860 --> 00:42:57.820
- You might have to have a mental model


00:42:57.820 --> 00:42:59.900
that matches closer to like what JavaScript


00:42:59.900 --> 00:43:01.300
traditionally has.


00:43:01.300 --> 00:43:02.380
- Yes, yeah.


00:43:02.380 --> 00:43:04.420
But you know, we can use async await


00:43:04.420 --> 00:43:07.220
anywhere in your code in PyDive, in PyScript.


00:43:07.220 --> 00:43:09.140
- Oh, sweet.


00:43:09.140 --> 00:43:12.460
Okay, I should have started on this list here


00:43:12.460 --> 00:43:14.000
40 minutes ago.


00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:16.140
But next question from Roller is,


00:43:16.140 --> 00:43:18.580
how would I pip install something in the PyScript?


00:43:18.580 --> 00:43:20.820
Which is, you know, a follow-up from what Chris asked


00:43:20.820 --> 00:43:22.820
in this like Python ecosystem integration.


00:43:22.820 --> 00:43:25.820
Clearly, pip install a thing is like,


00:43:25.820 --> 00:43:29.340
gotta be at least 30% why Python is so popular.


00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:30.900
- Right.


00:43:30.900 --> 00:43:35.220
Yeah, not commenting on the packaging for Python


00:43:35.220 --> 00:43:36.140
or JavaScript.


00:43:36.140 --> 00:43:41.260
And we all know that most people don't have problems with them.


00:43:41.260 --> 00:43:43.060
They all have idiosyncrasies, let's say.


00:43:43.060 --> 00:43:45.020
They all got their weirdnesses.


00:43:45.020 --> 00:43:46.140
Right.


00:43:46.140 --> 00:43:50.380
So Pyodyne itself allows you to use


00:43:50.380 --> 00:43:55.820
MicroPip, which is-- we will pip install your dependencies.


00:43:55.820 --> 00:43:58.180
So like an NPM-like thing, where it creates--


00:43:58.180 --> 00:44:01.820
Instead of a node module, it creates something else.


00:44:01.820 --> 00:44:05.020
- Yeah, instead of a node, it's like NPM,


00:44:05.020 --> 00:44:07.340
or it's more like pip really for Python.


00:44:07.340 --> 00:44:10.740
And we'll go, and if it's a package provided


00:44:10.740 --> 00:44:14.980
by Pyodite itself, we will load that package for you.


00:44:14.980 --> 00:44:17.420
If it's a package that is not available there,


00:44:17.420 --> 00:44:19.900
it will check on IPI.


00:44:19.900 --> 00:44:24.540
And you can also specify the location of the package itself.


00:44:24.540 --> 00:44:27.300
So if you have your own repository,


00:44:27.300 --> 00:44:30.540
but you have your URL to that points to a wheel file


00:44:30.540 --> 00:44:32.580
or a zip file, it will install from there.


00:44:32.580 --> 00:44:33.840
- Yeah, and that wheel can be remote,


00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:36.360
just like you might have a CDN pointed thing


00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:39.460
for JavaScript, like here's my wheel, okay.


00:44:39.460 --> 00:44:40.740
If it's pure Python, right?


00:44:40.740 --> 00:44:43.340
If it's C, then all bets are off.


00:44:43.340 --> 00:44:47.080
- If it's C, you should have done your duty


00:44:47.080 --> 00:44:50.120
and ported it to WebAssembly.


00:44:50.120 --> 00:44:54.260
But the PyScript provides a layer on top of that,


00:44:54.260 --> 00:44:58.820
where you can specify a tag called PyEnv


00:44:58.820 --> 00:45:02.380
and it accepts YAML format


00:45:02.380 --> 00:45:04.620
and you can specify your dependencies there


00:45:04.620 --> 00:45:09.620
and both for packages and also has an extra key called paths


00:45:09.620 --> 00:45:14.060
where you can actually provide the link to your modules.


00:45:14.060 --> 00:45:18.740
- Effectively like the working directory of your Python.


00:45:18.740 --> 00:45:21.740
So when you type import file name or directory slash file


00:45:21.740 --> 00:45:24.780
it kind of mirrors that to the browser, right?


00:45:24.780 --> 00:45:25.900
- Yes, exactly that.


00:45:25.900 --> 00:45:27.900
If you know how Python works,


00:45:27.900 --> 00:45:31.420
it's basically adding those files to your sys path.


00:45:31.420 --> 00:45:34.060
So it finds them.


00:45:34.060 --> 00:45:35.300
- Yeah, cool, cool.


00:45:35.300 --> 00:45:37.740
All right, another one that's really important here


00:45:37.740 --> 00:45:40.900
is Python with JavaScript.


00:45:40.900 --> 00:45:42.260
So it's not like you're locked


00:45:42.260 --> 00:45:45.860
into this PyScript little box, right?


00:45:45.860 --> 00:45:47.380
What I think, this is another thing


00:45:47.380 --> 00:45:49.500
that makes me very optimistic for the future


00:45:49.500 --> 00:45:53.300
is you can communicate back to other JavaScript,


00:45:53.300 --> 00:45:56.120
to JavaScript events, button clicks to the DOM.


00:45:56.120 --> 00:45:59.960
So if, here's another dream that I have,


00:45:59.960 --> 00:46:04.960
is something like a Vue.js wrapper type of thing


00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:07.440
that I could do in Python,


00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:12.440
and then do sort of model binding or attribute binding


00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:15.460
to the DOM and have that sort of stuff happening.


00:46:15.460 --> 00:46:18.700
And this is really important to make it a first class citizen


00:46:18.700 --> 00:46:20.660
that can work with all the stuff on the page,


00:46:20.660 --> 00:46:23.500
not like a canvas it was given or something.


00:46:23.500 --> 00:46:25.300
- Yeah, yeah.


00:46:25.300 --> 00:46:27.060
So before I go into this,


00:46:27.060 --> 00:46:29.580
I wanna plus one on what you said


00:46:29.580 --> 00:46:33.340
around reactive sort of programming and components


00:46:33.340 --> 00:46:35.260
where they can be attributes


00:46:35.260 --> 00:46:38.940
that auto notify others elements.


00:46:38.940 --> 00:46:42.100
So that is definitely something


00:46:42.100 --> 00:46:44.260
that we would love to explore more


00:46:44.260 --> 00:46:46.420
and there's a lot of interest.


00:46:46.420 --> 00:46:49.140
And on the Python with JavaScript side of things,


00:46:49.140 --> 00:46:54.140
after the keynote at PyCon, I saw a lot of videos coming up


00:46:54.140 --> 00:46:59.860
with like, oh, is JavaScript that now that Python


00:46:59.860 --> 00:47:03.440
can run on the browser and things like this?


00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:08.440
I think that narrative kind of looks at one side


00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:13.940
versus the other, where what we really wanna encourage


00:47:14.700 --> 00:47:17.700
is actually the two together, right?


00:47:17.700 --> 00:47:21.460
There is a ton of really great libraries in JavaScript.


00:47:21.460 --> 00:47:24.780
And there is a level of maturity in JavaScript


00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:27.860
on things on the browser or UI creation,


00:47:27.860 --> 00:47:32.560
or drawing on canvas or on the page


00:47:32.560 --> 00:47:37.560
that we were nowhere close to the 1% in Python.


00:47:37.560 --> 00:47:41.040
And all of a sudden you can use those tools in Python


00:47:41.040 --> 00:47:42.740
and vice versa.


00:47:42.740 --> 00:47:46.620
all of a sudden JavaScript users could use NumPy or SciPy


00:47:46.620 --> 00:47:49.120
and other things to power their applications, right?


00:47:49.120 --> 00:47:50.300
So I think- - That's interesting.


00:47:50.300 --> 00:47:52.660
I really thought about the benefit others,


00:47:52.660 --> 00:47:55.940
like outside of Python people may be receiving, but yeah.


00:47:55.940 --> 00:47:57.140
- Yeah. - Now Python becomes


00:47:57.140 --> 00:47:59.060
a thing so they could leverage, yeah.


00:47:59.060 --> 00:48:03.540
- Exactly, I think if we start looking at this that way,


00:48:03.540 --> 00:48:05.900
then you can see how PyScript is a glue


00:48:05.900 --> 00:48:08.500
for building richer applications,


00:48:08.500 --> 00:48:09.900
depending like independently,


00:48:09.900 --> 00:48:12.680
if you're a JavaScript developer or Python developer,


00:48:12.680 --> 00:48:17.180
And we are starting with Python, it makes a lot of sense.


00:48:17.180 --> 00:48:22.180
But if there is a Rust implementation on Lasm or R,


00:48:22.180 --> 00:48:26.000
I'm sure that the Python scientific community


00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:30.520
will love to use R tools in the page with Python stuff


00:48:30.520 --> 00:48:33.440
and maybe JavaScript as well, right?


00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:34.380
- Yeah.


00:48:34.380 --> 00:48:38.600
- I think it's building together kind of movement


00:48:38.600 --> 00:48:40.760
that we wanna push forward.


00:48:40.760 --> 00:48:44.800
- Yeah, if I can look out and imagine a future,


00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:46.480
I don't know that there's a chance


00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:47.500
how much it would exist,


00:48:47.500 --> 00:48:49.000
but a really great future of like,


00:48:49.000 --> 00:48:51.280
well, we have WebAssembly.


00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:53.460
What if we really made WebAssembly


00:48:53.460 --> 00:48:55.660
more of a first-class citizen


00:48:55.660 --> 00:48:58.560
from a browser maker perspective?


00:48:58.560 --> 00:49:00.680
One things I think would be fantastic is


00:49:00.680 --> 00:49:03.920
if instead of getting to the DOM through JavaScript


00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:05.840
and through the events through JavaScript,


00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:07.920
is if all of the browser makers said,


00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:11.460
"Here's a WebAssembly native thing that you can use


00:49:11.460 --> 00:49:14.540
"to bind to the DOM and to the events


00:49:14.540 --> 00:49:17.060
"and basically control it."


00:49:17.060 --> 00:49:18.900
You could have Rust in the browser,


00:49:18.900 --> 00:49:20.860
Python in the browser, C# in the browser,


00:49:20.860 --> 00:49:24.260
and they could all have this common API defined


00:49:24.260 --> 00:49:27.020
and maybe even an adapter type thing,


00:49:27.020 --> 00:49:28.540
like, well, in C# it's classes,


00:49:28.540 --> 00:49:31.460
and in Python it's lambdas, I don't know, whatever, right?


00:49:31.460 --> 00:49:35.060
Like some variation that's more native to your world.


00:49:35.060 --> 00:49:36.980
But if there was some kind of interaction


00:49:36.980 --> 00:49:39.760
that we could build on, that would be even better,


00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:40.660
but we don't have that.


00:49:40.660 --> 00:49:42.300
So this integration with JavaScript


00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:45.620
and all of its modern features is fantastic.


00:49:45.620 --> 00:49:46.620
You still would want that,


00:49:46.620 --> 00:49:48.100
but it would be nice if there was a way,


00:49:48.100 --> 00:49:49.900
just put Python aside.


00:49:49.900 --> 00:49:51.300
Like if I'm doing WebAssembly stuff


00:49:51.300 --> 00:49:53.140
that I could stay in WebAssembly,


00:49:53.140 --> 00:49:56.980
stay native to interact more with the browser.


00:49:56.980 --> 00:49:59.260
- Yeah, and honestly, the interaction


00:49:59.260 --> 00:50:02.380
between the WebAssembly part of it and JavaScript,


00:50:02.380 --> 00:50:03.460
it's very fast.


00:50:05.220 --> 00:50:08.340
But I want to highlight one thing that you said.


00:50:08.340 --> 00:50:12.100
A lot of the future and how can this improve


00:50:12.100 --> 00:50:17.100
is on the browser folks.


00:50:17.100 --> 00:50:17.940
- It's on the vendors.


00:50:17.940 --> 00:50:19.340
Yeah, it's on their shoulders to do it.


00:50:19.340 --> 00:50:24.340
- Yes, 'cause like the huge bottleneck


00:50:24.340 --> 00:50:27.220
that we have right now is that you still,


00:50:27.220 --> 00:50:28.500
like when you load your things,


00:50:28.500 --> 00:50:30.160
you still need to compile them


00:50:30.160 --> 00:50:32.340
and run them in WebAssembly.


00:50:32.340 --> 00:50:36.380
So there's a, the loading time right now is very high


00:50:36.380 --> 00:50:38.700
and we're working on optimizing things.


00:50:38.700 --> 00:50:42.980
And there's a lot of work, great work from the CPython folks


00:50:42.980 --> 00:50:46.100
and the Pylite folks to reduce the size of things


00:50:46.100 --> 00:50:49.140
that you're shipping by default.


00:50:49.140 --> 00:50:52.500
But ultimately, if you have a large scientific application


00:50:52.500 --> 00:50:55.540
you still want to install NumPy and Bokeh


00:50:55.540 --> 00:50:58.960
and other stuff like this, and you will have a loading time.


00:50:58.960 --> 00:50:59.880
- There is a loading time.


00:50:59.880 --> 00:51:01.820
And, you know, I think that might mean


00:51:01.820 --> 00:51:05.580
it doesn't make sense for the homepage of Reddit


00:51:05.580 --> 00:51:10.420
or like your marketing page that needs to load super fast


00:51:10.420 --> 00:51:12.760
to have to be implemented in this.


00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:17.340
But if you're writing something like Google Maps, Gmail,


00:51:17.340 --> 00:51:19.420
or like I go to those sites and then they spend and spend


00:51:19.420 --> 00:51:22.060
and spend for three seconds already, you know,


00:51:22.060 --> 00:51:25.020
like the first time you hit that, it does that.


00:51:25.020 --> 00:51:26.860
The second time it would just be cached, right?


00:51:26.860 --> 00:51:31.100
All the stuff is off the WebAssembly stuff


00:51:31.100 --> 00:51:32.500
It's just off disk and it,


00:51:32.500 --> 00:51:36.300
if your expectation is this page might take two seconds


00:51:36.300 --> 00:51:40.140
to load sometimes, you're good, I think, honestly.


00:51:40.140 --> 00:51:41.780
- Yeah, yeah.


00:51:41.780 --> 00:51:44.020
All that to say like, this is the current state, right?


00:51:44.020 --> 00:51:47.260
I think there's a huge margin for improvement in the future


00:51:47.260 --> 00:51:50.500
and a lot of really great people are looking at it.


00:51:50.500 --> 00:51:51.340
- Yeah, okay.


00:51:51.340 --> 00:51:55.660
I agree and I think the momentum is just building.


00:51:55.660 --> 00:51:57.540
So let's look at some code and some examples


00:51:57.540 --> 00:52:00.660
so we can make this concrete for people over audio,


00:52:00.660 --> 00:52:02.180
which is tricky, but let's do it anyway.


00:52:02.180 --> 00:52:05.740
So you've got the GitHub page,


00:52:05.740 --> 00:52:08.300
which has a bunch of examples.


00:52:08.300 --> 00:52:10.300
And so what I wanna do is kind of just pull up


00:52:10.300 --> 00:52:14.800
some of the examples here and let me remind myself


00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:16.260
what they are called.


00:52:16.260 --> 00:52:19.040
Let's do this one first, actually.


00:52:19.040 --> 00:52:23.540
I wanna look at anti-gravity.


00:52:23.540 --> 00:52:27.660
So we all know the XKCD.


00:52:27.660 --> 00:52:29.220
And if you go to the REPL in Python,


00:52:29.220 --> 00:52:33.060
you type import anti-gravity, amazing stuff happens.


00:52:33.060 --> 00:52:37.380
And so here we have that equivalent in PyScript,


00:52:37.380 --> 00:52:38.460
but there's a couple of things


00:52:38.460 --> 00:52:39.500
that are really interesting about this.


00:52:39.500 --> 00:52:40.460
So let's pull this up.


00:52:40.460 --> 00:52:42.820
It says based on this thing, and you give it a second,


00:52:42.820 --> 00:52:47.700
and it says, the XKCD is, how are you flying?


00:52:47.700 --> 00:52:49.860
There's someone up there flying, like Python.


00:52:49.860 --> 00:52:51.660
I just imported anti-gravity, right?


00:52:51.660 --> 00:52:52.580
It's great.


00:52:52.580 --> 00:52:53.740
But this is a variation.


00:52:53.740 --> 00:52:56.860
Do maybe describe what just happened on the screen here.


00:52:56.860 --> 00:53:00.040
People can go to the demo and watch it, of course.


00:53:00.040 --> 00:53:02.200
They just check out the repo.


00:53:02.200 --> 00:53:07.040
This is a great, great example done by Philip Rudiger.


00:53:07.040 --> 00:53:10.200
His core contributor to PyScript,


00:53:10.200 --> 00:53:13.800
but also contributor to panel, HoloViews.


00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:16.520
OK, he's done a lot of great stuff.


00:53:16.520 --> 00:53:22.520
And what's happening here is we're loading the SVG first.


00:53:22.520 --> 00:53:25.080
And then there's another Python function


00:53:25.080 --> 00:53:30.080
that basically takes that the stickman and makes it float.


00:53:30.080 --> 00:53:32.240
But basically-


00:53:32.240 --> 00:53:34.880
- It literally animates and flies up into the sky.


00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:38.080
Like it really takes off, not just it's up there, right?


00:53:38.080 --> 00:53:39.000
- Yes, yes.


00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:42.880
And for anyone wanting to check them out,


00:53:42.880 --> 00:53:47.880
the examples are also available on PyScript.net/examples


00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:50.240
and you can run them directly there.


00:53:50.240 --> 00:53:51.080
- Interesting.


00:53:51.080 --> 00:53:56.080
- Yeah, cool.


00:53:56.080 --> 00:53:59.460
Okay, yeah, we'll link to that as well.


00:53:59.460 --> 00:54:01.660
So I said this is interesting.


00:54:01.660 --> 00:54:03.300
It's interesting for several reasons.


00:54:03.300 --> 00:54:07.460
One, if I go and look at my task manager in Vivaldi,


00:54:07.460 --> 00:54:11.340
this is doing like 30% CPU, constantly refreshing.


00:54:11.340 --> 00:54:12.420
I don't know what the frame rate is,


00:54:12.420 --> 00:54:16.380
but it seems certainly passable in terms of


00:54:16.380 --> 00:54:18.500
there's cool animations going on,


00:54:19.500 --> 00:54:21.600
on this rendering this canvas.


00:54:21.600 --> 00:54:24.660
It looks good, right?


00:54:24.660 --> 00:54:26.620
It doesn't seem like, oh, this just isn't gonna work.


00:54:26.620 --> 00:54:28.660
It's like the person doesn't like glitch.


00:54:28.660 --> 00:54:29.500
(laughs)


00:54:29.500 --> 00:54:30.780
- Right, right. - You know what I mean?


00:54:30.780 --> 00:54:31.820
- Yeah. - The other one is


00:54:31.820 --> 00:54:33.460
it highlights many of the things


00:54:33.460 --> 00:54:35.460
that I think are pretty interesting here.


00:54:35.460 --> 00:54:38.180
Let me pull up the code for the example.


00:54:38.180 --> 00:54:40.460
And this maybe will give us a chance


00:54:40.460 --> 00:54:42.360
to talk through the programming model.


00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:45.580
So first of all, the first thing that's interesting


00:54:45.580 --> 00:54:48.420
is it has this pie E and V section.


00:54:48.420 --> 00:54:52.500
and you have, people maybe have seen examples


00:54:52.500 --> 00:54:53.860
and if you go to the home screen,


00:54:53.860 --> 00:54:56.800
you can actually, the pyscript.net,


00:54:56.800 --> 00:55:00.460
it says there's new tag done through web components


00:55:00.460 --> 00:55:02.500
called py-script instead of just script


00:55:02.500 --> 00:55:06.940
and you can just write Python code directly in the browser.


00:55:06.940 --> 00:55:08.900
But you only wanna do that for so long


00:55:08.900 --> 00:55:12.500
until you wanna read it across a couple pages or whatever.


00:55:12.500 --> 00:55:14.740
So what's really cool here is the implementation of this


00:55:14.740 --> 00:55:18.760
is actually a custom Python file on the server, right?


00:55:18.760 --> 00:55:21.680
- Yeah, exactly.


00:55:21.680 --> 00:55:26.680
We are, we been working on that for some time,


00:55:26.680 --> 00:55:29.800
the design of this, 'cause as you said,


00:55:29.800 --> 00:55:33.440
there's a tension between allowing people


00:55:33.440 --> 00:55:35.360
to just drop things in the page


00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:36.920
and then have your Python code there.


00:55:36.920 --> 00:55:41.920
And it just works to also, you know,


00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:47.280
suggesting better patterns to do this.


00:55:47.280 --> 00:55:50.920
You definitely don't, from a quality point of view,


00:55:50.920 --> 00:55:53.960
it's really hard to test anything that you just drop on the page.


00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:55.520
A readability point of view.


00:55:55.520 --> 00:55:57.720
>> A refactor it or anything.


00:55:57.720 --> 00:56:00.520
>> Right. But at the same time,


00:56:00.520 --> 00:56:04.840
we really want this to be something that people can play with and hack


00:56:04.840 --> 00:56:08.520
with and then don't have too much to think about,


00:56:08.520 --> 00:56:10.920
oh, I need a file, I need to name it Python


00:56:10.920 --> 00:56:12.120
and all of that.


00:56:12.120 --> 00:56:14.640
- If there was a NPM install step


00:56:14.640 --> 00:56:17.520
and then there was a compile step and then a pack step,


00:56:17.520 --> 00:56:20.240
like you would shave off like 75% of the people


00:56:20.240 --> 00:56:22.000
who are just wanting to check it out.


00:56:22.000 --> 00:56:24.800
- Right, so we allow this pattern,


00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:27.920
but you could also say like the same code could be


00:56:27.920 --> 00:56:30.400
the same thing in PyEnv and then in PyScript,


00:56:30.400 --> 00:56:33.440
you could also have PyScript source equals


00:56:33.440 --> 00:56:34.920
in a Python file.


00:56:34.920 --> 00:56:37.900
So you can run that from files as well.


00:56:37.900 --> 00:56:42.020
- Right, yeah, so just like with the regular script tagging,


00:56:42.020 --> 00:56:44.820
say source, and it can do a thing on startup,


00:56:44.820 --> 00:56:49.820
you know, like jQuery did its $document.ready hook


00:56:49.820 --> 00:56:51.900
right at the top all the time.


00:56:51.900 --> 00:56:54.420
Like you could do the equivalent of something like that.


00:56:54.420 --> 00:56:56.340
Okay, this is cool, but this is only part of it.


00:56:56.340 --> 00:56:59.460
Let me open up the other file, the antigravity.py.


00:56:59.460 --> 00:57:01.100
And this is the one, this is the one


00:57:01.100 --> 00:57:04.460
that made me really happy because when I look at this,


00:57:04.460 --> 00:57:06.980
it's, you know, how is that animation happening, right?


00:57:06.980 --> 00:57:10.820
what you do is you set a timer to do a callback,


00:57:10.820 --> 00:57:12.180
you know, where you are in JavaScript,


00:57:12.180 --> 00:57:14.060
and it goes click, click, click, click, click.


00:57:14.060 --> 00:57:16.180
Let's see how often are you doing this?


00:57:16.180 --> 00:57:19.980
Do you remember what the target frame rate was here?


00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:21.060
I'm looking.


00:57:21.060 --> 00:57:22.300
- I don't remember.


00:57:22.300 --> 00:57:23.780
- Yeah, anyway, there's some sort of time


00:57:23.780 --> 00:57:26.420
where you say run it this frequently.


00:57:26.420 --> 00:57:30.180
And basically what you do is you go over here


00:57:30.180 --> 00:57:31.860
and you say, this is Python,


00:57:31.860 --> 00:57:35.400
you say document get element by ID.


00:57:35.400 --> 00:57:37.040
All right, first of all, awesome.


00:57:37.040 --> 00:57:38.860
With a ternary expression.


00:57:38.860 --> 00:57:44.840
And then you go and add through the DOM parser,


00:57:44.840 --> 00:57:46.940
you add the SVG in there.


00:57:46.940 --> 00:57:47.940
That's amazing.


00:57:47.940 --> 00:57:52.040
You do a replace child with some HTML stuff.


00:57:52.040 --> 00:57:57.040
And then you go and you hook this set interval.


00:57:57.040 --> 00:57:58.640
So set interval is the way to say,


00:57:58.640 --> 00:58:00.900
set a callback on a timer in JavaScript.


00:58:01.980 --> 00:58:06.540
and then you just call the Python function self.move.


00:58:06.540 --> 00:58:08.720
Right, so there's a really cool interaction


00:58:08.720 --> 00:58:13.100
between JavaScript that's happening at a high frequency


00:58:13.100 --> 00:58:17.260
that shows do some stuff in Python,


00:58:17.260 --> 00:58:20.580
go over to JavaScript, you know, go through the DOM


00:58:20.580 --> 00:58:22.080
and then call back into Python


00:58:22.080 --> 00:58:23.480
when things that are interesting happen.


00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:25.460
Here is an interval, but it could be a button click


00:58:25.460 --> 00:58:28.400
or a dropdown select or whatever, right?


00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:29.540
- Right, right.


00:58:29.540 --> 00:58:33.900
And we are also, we're doing some work right now


00:58:33.900 --> 00:58:36.960
at providing a higher level interface


00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:41.960
that would be more Pythonic to those JavaScript,


00:58:41.960 --> 00:58:45.500
the usual things that you would always do in JavaScript,


00:58:45.500 --> 00:58:48.820
like selecting an element by ID or class


00:58:48.820 --> 00:58:49.660
or things like this.


00:58:49.660 --> 00:58:53.620
- A CSS selector sort of model or something, yeah.


00:58:53.620 --> 00:58:54.520
- Yeah, exactly.


00:58:54.520 --> 00:58:57.820
So I think the goal is to provide the simplest


00:58:57.820 --> 00:59:02.420
and more expressive or Pythonic interface that we could


00:59:02.420 --> 00:59:04.200
to hide some of that complexity,


00:59:04.200 --> 00:59:07.500
because at the end, a lot of Python users or new users


00:59:07.500 --> 00:59:10.860
will have to end up learning about JavaScript itself.


00:59:10.860 --> 00:59:13.020
- You're like, I didn't wanna learn JavaScript


00:59:13.020 --> 00:59:14.660
and here I am learning JavaScript.


00:59:14.660 --> 00:59:16.100
I think what you're learning though is not,


00:59:16.100 --> 00:59:17.620
you're not learning JavaScript.


00:59:17.620 --> 00:59:20.420
What you're learning is the DOM API,


00:59:20.420 --> 00:59:23.460
the APIs that JavaScript often consumes.


00:59:23.460 --> 00:59:24.420
- Right, correct. - You have to learn


00:59:24.420 --> 00:59:27.820
that the DOM has a get element by tag name


00:59:27.820 --> 00:59:32.820
rather than I have to say, I can't say var anymore,


00:59:32.820 --> 00:59:36.980
var char, they have to say let or else it'll complain.


00:59:36.980 --> 00:59:37.820
You know what I mean?


00:59:37.820 --> 00:59:39.820
Like you're not learning the language nuances


00:59:39.820 --> 00:59:41.500
but you are learning the APIs


00:59:41.500 --> 00:59:43.820
that JavaScript people are very common.


00:59:43.820 --> 00:59:45.580
- Yeah, and it's a great point.


00:59:45.580 --> 00:59:47.700
Like another thing, for instance,


00:59:47.700 --> 00:59:50.660
the set interval could be replaced with full Python


00:59:50.660 --> 00:59:54.260
and just say like from async I/O import sleep,


00:59:54.260 --> 00:59:56.820
you know, time sleep, and then while--


00:59:56.820 --> 00:59:57.900
- Let's do a loop.


00:59:57.900 --> 01:00:01.220
- There's do a loop and async await there.


01:00:01.220 --> 01:00:02.220
- Oh, no kidding, okay.


01:00:02.220 --> 01:00:04.260
Like a while true.


01:00:04.260 --> 01:00:05.300
- Exactly.


01:00:05.300 --> 01:00:07.500
- Await sleep, then move.


01:00:07.500 --> 01:00:09.260
Okay, yeah, this is really, really neat.


01:00:09.260 --> 01:00:13.660
I think this example is so simple, it's playful,


01:00:13.660 --> 01:00:18.380
and it's not just, we put a graph on the page.


01:00:18.380 --> 01:00:19.620
Not to say that that's not important,


01:00:19.620 --> 01:00:23.720
but it's different than what we've seen before often.


01:00:23.720 --> 01:00:26.780
- Yeah, honestly, really props to you, Philip.


01:00:26.780 --> 01:00:29.560
Like, and I don't know what, 50 lines of code


01:00:29.560 --> 01:00:31.280
or 40 lines of code.


01:00:31.280 --> 01:00:33.620
- Yeah, 45 for the entire implementation


01:00:33.620 --> 01:00:36.080
of a flying anti-gravity.


01:00:36.080 --> 01:00:39.300
- Right, pretty neat, yeah.


01:00:39.300 --> 01:00:43.580
- And in Python, those are not 45 lines of JavaScript.


01:00:43.580 --> 01:00:44.560
- Right.


01:00:44.560 --> 01:00:47.220
- Cool, okay, audience question.


01:00:47.220 --> 01:00:49.800
Marcel says, "Would it accept loading data


01:00:49.800 --> 01:00:52.020
"from a file for processing?"


01:00:52.020 --> 01:00:53.720
like, you know, we're pulling the modules,


01:00:53.720 --> 01:00:56.100
but like, what's the data story?


01:00:56.100 --> 01:00:58.720
- That's a really, really great question.


01:00:58.720 --> 01:01:02.780
I think the data story is yet to be told.


01:01:02.780 --> 01:01:05.680
We're dedicating a lot of effort to that.


01:01:05.680 --> 01:01:12.180
Right now you can load data using fetch basically,


01:01:12.180 --> 01:01:15.140
and you can fetch data and then read just like normal files.


01:01:15.140 --> 01:01:19.740
PyDite provides a PyFetch wrapper


01:01:19.740 --> 01:01:22.580
around the JavaScript fetch,


01:01:22.580 --> 01:01:26.460
but there is a lot that can be done


01:01:26.460 --> 01:01:29.580
and we are working on it to have better support


01:01:29.580 --> 01:01:31.380
and just, you know,


01:01:31.380 --> 01:01:34.260
how does the story for larger files look like?


01:01:34.260 --> 01:01:35.500
And--


01:01:35.500 --> 01:01:38.020
- Can I do a Panda read CSV and give it a URL


01:01:38.020 --> 01:01:39.180
or something like that?


01:01:39.180 --> 01:01:41.380
- That's a great question.


01:01:41.380 --> 01:01:42.580
I'm not sure. - I don't know.


01:01:42.580 --> 01:01:43.420
- Yeah, I don't know.


01:01:43.420 --> 01:01:45.620
- I have no idea, I'm really just wondering, yeah.


01:01:45.620 --> 01:01:48.980
- Yeah, but yeah, that's one of the stories


01:01:48.980 --> 01:01:51.620
that I think needs more development.


01:01:51.620 --> 01:01:53.260
Right now you can pull files


01:01:53.260 --> 01:01:55.280
and read them with that method,


01:01:55.280 --> 01:01:58.460
but there's more work to be done there.


01:01:58.460 --> 01:02:00.420
- Yeah, okay, cool.


01:02:00.420 --> 01:02:03.660
Let's look at another demo here.


01:02:03.660 --> 01:02:05.940
Let's see, give me, I'm running out of time, so good.


01:02:05.940 --> 01:02:08.580
Okay, this one's interesting too.


01:02:08.580 --> 01:02:11.820
This panel, I think it's panel stream is the one.


01:02:11.820 --> 01:02:12.660
Number here.


01:02:12.660 --> 01:02:15.700
- And this is one of those


01:02:15.700 --> 01:02:17.700
that is gonna take some time to load


01:02:17.700 --> 01:02:20.500
because under the hood, it's installing panel


01:02:20.500 --> 01:02:23.700
and installing bouquet, I think,


01:02:23.700 --> 01:02:27.900
and other visualization libraries that are heavier.


01:02:27.900 --> 01:02:29.140
- Right, right, right.


01:02:29.140 --> 01:02:31.820
So, oops, I'm gonna get too wide,


01:02:31.820 --> 01:02:33.500
but maybe I'll zoom it out.


01:02:33.500 --> 01:02:34.460
There we go.


01:02:34.460 --> 01:02:35.700
Well, let's try it a second time, right?


01:02:35.700 --> 01:02:38.460
So, what do you guess?


01:02:38.460 --> 01:02:40.260
Seven or eight seconds maybe it took that first time,


01:02:40.260 --> 01:02:41.540
but if I hit it again,


01:02:41.540 --> 01:02:44.220
it says it downloaded 3.6 megs.


01:02:44.220 --> 01:02:46.500
And it's probably-


01:02:46.500 --> 01:02:48.320
- You should have cached most of the things


01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:49.320
that you compiled.


01:02:49.320 --> 01:02:54.460
But also if you set your browser to not cache,


01:02:54.460 --> 01:02:56.760
it will not change anything.


01:02:56.760 --> 01:02:59.300
- Yeah, well, I think the challenge is that I'm using


01:02:59.300 --> 01:03:02.280
just Python-M HTTP servers.


01:03:02.280 --> 01:03:07.280
I'm not really using a proper server for this.


01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:08.500
So that's not helping.


01:03:08.500 --> 01:03:10.820
I'm gonna let that one load up while we're,


01:03:10.820 --> 01:03:13.620
I'm pulling up another one here that I wanna talk about.


01:03:14.460 --> 01:03:16.840
- Yeah, is there one that you think we should highlight


01:03:16.840 --> 01:03:17.680
in particular?


01:03:17.680 --> 01:03:19.060
I mean, we've got the matplotlib one,


01:03:19.060 --> 01:03:23.340
which is pretty interesting over here that shows this.


01:03:23.340 --> 01:03:24.180
- Right.


01:03:24.180 --> 01:03:28.940
The D3 one is pretty interesting as well


01:03:28.940 --> 01:03:33.500
in the sense that for now-


01:03:33.500 --> 01:03:35.100
- The D3 one you said?


01:03:35.100 --> 01:03:36.100
- Yeah. - Right.


01:03:36.100 --> 01:03:37.180
- Okay.


01:03:37.180 --> 01:03:41.220
- D3 has been a library that Python folks


01:03:41.220 --> 01:03:44.360
have always wanting to be using.


01:03:44.360 --> 01:03:45.560
- That one was super fast.


01:03:45.560 --> 01:03:48.520
That one was two or three seconds.


01:03:48.520 --> 01:03:49.360
- Right.


01:03:49.360 --> 01:03:50.820
- Less than two seconds, yeah.


01:03:50.820 --> 01:03:53.700
- Yeah, and that should have basically


01:03:53.700 --> 01:03:55.440
the same loading time as JavaScript


01:03:55.440 --> 01:03:58.200
because we're not really importing much


01:03:58.200 --> 01:03:59.360
or installing new libraries.


01:03:59.360 --> 01:04:01.560
- And once I hit your example server,


01:04:01.560 --> 01:04:03.880
then it's cached it, right?


01:04:03.880 --> 01:04:06.760
- Yeah, yeah, the second time you do, yes.


01:04:06.760 --> 01:04:10.880
So another one, the WebGL,


01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:13.560
Right, right, right down.


01:04:13.560 --> 01:04:17.080
There you go.


01:04:17.080 --> 01:04:20.560
Yeah, this also should load pretty fast


01:04:20.560 --> 01:04:24.480
and shows wrapping WebGL directly.


01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:29.240
- So this, if people obviously listening don't know,


01:04:29.240 --> 01:04:32.920
this one shows an example of dodecahedrons or something,


01:04:32.920 --> 01:04:34.880
a bunch sort of rotating and spinning around.


01:04:34.880 --> 01:04:38.800
It's a little bit like a 3D asteroid game


01:04:38.800 --> 01:04:39.820
with no spaceships.


01:04:39.820 --> 01:04:41.060
(laughing)


01:04:41.060 --> 01:04:44.820
Something like that, I guess, maybe is a way to think of it.


01:04:44.820 --> 01:04:46.540
And if I go to, oh, and it also,


01:04:46.540 --> 01:04:48.460
as I move my mouse, it reacts to it.


01:04:48.460 --> 01:04:49.460
I hadn't moved my mouse.


01:04:49.460 --> 01:04:50.960
So that's pretty cool.


01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:58.220
I opened up my little task manager thing.


01:04:58.220 --> 01:05:00.700
Let's show me that.


01:05:00.700 --> 01:05:05.260
I don't know if it shares, but it says,


01:05:05.260 --> 01:05:07.580
basically, it shows you how hard it's working,


01:05:07.580 --> 01:05:12.580
and it's 20% CPU for this 3D rendering interaction thing.


01:05:12.580 --> 01:05:19.180
If you probably try to do this in pure Python


01:05:19.180 --> 01:05:22.340
and like Pygame, it might be more, you know?


01:05:22.340 --> 01:05:26.060
- Yeah, I'm not sure about like the performance


01:05:26.060 --> 01:05:28.340
and you know, like resources,


01:05:28.340 --> 01:05:29.820
but it should be pretty much,


01:05:29.820 --> 01:05:32.980
once you're using JavaScript things,


01:05:32.980 --> 01:05:35.700
they should be pretty much the same as JavaScript,


01:05:35.700 --> 01:05:37.140
pure JavaScript.


01:05:37.140 --> 01:05:39.940
Much like Python often just sort of orchestrates C code


01:05:39.940 --> 01:05:41.880
once you've loaded something into the C layer


01:05:41.880 --> 01:05:43.740
and you're kind of just instructing it


01:05:43.740 --> 01:05:44.680
through simple commands,


01:05:44.680 --> 01:05:46.880
it's probably not very different here.


01:05:46.880 --> 01:05:48.040
- Exactly, yes.


01:05:48.040 --> 01:05:49.180
- All right. - Yeah.


01:05:49.180 --> 01:05:51.560
- Cool, all right, so I strongly encourage people


01:05:51.560 --> 01:05:53.620
to go check out the demo code.


01:05:53.620 --> 01:05:56.560
It's just under the example folders in the GitHub repo,


01:05:56.560 --> 01:05:57.560
which we'll link to.


01:05:57.560 --> 01:06:00.920
Fabio, we're running low on time here.


01:06:00.920 --> 01:06:03.440
There's so much more I wanna talk to you about.


01:06:03.440 --> 01:06:06.080
- You drive.


01:06:06.080 --> 01:06:09.440
- Yeah, yeah, let me just see a couple of example


01:06:09.440 --> 01:06:11.740
or a couple of areas I wanna talk about here.


01:06:11.740 --> 01:06:15.320
I just wanna quickly touch on security.


01:06:15.320 --> 01:06:17.440
I think the security story is pretty simple,


01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:19.040
but I do have one question.


01:06:19.040 --> 01:06:21.240
So to some degree, people might go,


01:06:21.240 --> 01:06:26.240
"Oh my gosh, it's compiled C in Java script in the browser.


01:06:26.240 --> 01:06:30.480
What madness are people gonna unleash on the world?


01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:31.640
This is like ActiveX


01:06:31.640 --> 01:06:35.160
or some dreaded calm thing all over again."


01:06:35.160 --> 01:06:39.000
And really WebAssembly also has the same sandbox security


01:06:39.000 --> 01:06:40.640
as JavaScript, right?


01:06:40.640 --> 01:06:42.300
- Right, yes.


01:06:42.300 --> 01:06:44.960
So yeah, actually a lot of the issues


01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:47.480
that we've been getting around security


01:06:47.480 --> 01:06:52.480
boils down to that people like not being used


01:06:52.480 --> 01:06:56.320
to seeing the browser as a VM.


01:06:56.320 --> 01:07:01.320
So, oh, if I type OS, like list there and stuff like this,


01:07:03.320 --> 01:07:05.640
and I have access to the file system.


01:07:05.640 --> 01:07:09.240
Well, you're having access to an ephemera's file system


01:07:09.240 --> 01:07:13.280
in the browser and not your local file system.


01:07:13.280 --> 01:07:15.240
That is a very important aspect.


01:07:15.240 --> 01:07:20.160
- One thing that would make me super happy


01:07:20.160 --> 01:07:23.880
is if we had some beautiful Python API


01:07:23.880 --> 01:07:25.880
to the local data side of things.


01:07:25.880 --> 01:07:27.840
So inside the browser in JavaScript,


01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:30.160
you get access to, what's it called?


01:07:30.160 --> 01:07:33.480
local DB and there's like a, there's different levels.


01:07:33.480 --> 01:07:36.740
There's like a file sort of file per site,


01:07:36.740 --> 01:07:39.180
file storage thing that's tied to your user.


01:07:39.180 --> 01:07:43.020
And then there's like an embedded SQL light like thing.


01:07:43.020 --> 01:07:45.900
I mean, if you had something like SQL model


01:07:45.900 --> 01:07:49.940
or some other proper ORM that would let you connect


01:07:49.940 --> 01:07:52.820
to query that, I suspect that it could probably


01:07:52.820 --> 01:07:56.380
be built pretty easily with a interoperability layer


01:07:56.380 --> 01:07:59.660
to figure out just how to translate that


01:07:59.660 --> 01:08:01.660
to JavaScript, but do you is it?


01:08:01.660 --> 01:08:03.960
What do you think you know more now?


01:08:03.960 --> 01:08:07.620
Now that there are lots of possibilities and scenarios of,


01:08:07.620 --> 01:08:11.160
you know, using what the browser provides you like local storage


01:08:11.160 --> 01:08:15.960
or small instances of databases and stuff like that.


01:08:15.960 --> 01:08:22.460
The there so that is almost shipped and default with all the


01:08:22.460 --> 01:08:23.660
browsers.


01:08:23.660 --> 01:08:26.860
There are interesting projects.


01:08:26.860 --> 01:08:30.060
well, at least one that I've seen, like Google Project,


01:08:30.060 --> 01:08:33.380
where from Google, from the Chrome team,


01:08:33.380 --> 01:08:37.060
that is experimenting with scenarios


01:08:37.060 --> 01:08:42.140
where you can actually allow apps to access your file


01:08:42.140 --> 01:08:45.900
system or other resources, native resources.


01:08:45.900 --> 01:08:50.060
It goes through a process of approval.


01:08:50.060 --> 01:08:53.980
But you can mount directories and use them


01:08:53.980 --> 01:08:57.220
from your browser as a local mount.


01:08:57.220 --> 01:09:00.660
And those are also very interesting scenarios


01:09:00.660 --> 01:09:05.180
that could open up a lot of different ways


01:09:05.180 --> 01:09:06.740
of interacting with PyScript.


01:09:06.740 --> 01:09:09.260
Maybe it would mean you can actually


01:09:09.260 --> 01:09:12.620
develop your PyScript app directly from your local machine


01:09:12.620 --> 01:09:16.380
and then serve it on the browser real time,


01:09:16.380 --> 01:09:20.060
or your app could write files or do your models


01:09:20.060 --> 01:09:22.620
or computation on the browser and then write results


01:09:22.620 --> 01:09:24.300
to your local files.


01:09:24.300 --> 01:09:26.040
There's a lot that can be explored.


01:09:26.040 --> 01:09:28.900
- Yeah, very exciting.


01:09:28.900 --> 01:09:30.580
Okay, my security question though,


01:09:30.580 --> 01:09:32.180
outside of the, it's all the sandbox,


01:09:32.180 --> 01:09:33.620
let's not stress about it.


01:09:33.620 --> 01:09:36.540
We already have had WebAssembly for a long time.


01:09:36.540 --> 01:09:39.620
Is this pyenv section here where you can say,


01:09:39.620 --> 01:09:41.340
go find this file, right?


01:09:41.340 --> 01:09:43.180
And I'm thinking of, you know, my website,


01:09:43.180 --> 01:09:46.380
which has a static files, static files folder section


01:09:46.380 --> 01:09:47.260
where I might put this,


01:09:47.260 --> 01:09:48.780
'cause that needs to be served up


01:09:48.780 --> 01:09:51.540
as effectively a static file to the front end.


01:09:51.540 --> 01:09:55.300
But I've also got my app.py, my various views,


01:09:55.300 --> 01:09:57.180
and settings.json.


01:09:57.180 --> 01:10:02.700
And if I put too many dot dot slashes there,


01:10:02.700 --> 01:10:05.180
am I going to be able to get to other stuff, or is it OK?


01:10:05.180 --> 01:10:09.500
What do you mean?


01:10:09.500 --> 01:10:16.580
Suppose this folder, this file lives in static/antigravity.html.


01:10:16.580 --> 01:10:21.460
But the rest of my app is one directory up from--


01:10:21.460 --> 01:10:22.520
- Oh yeah. - From that,


01:10:22.520 --> 01:10:25.100
like, could I say my path to my module is


01:10:25.100 --> 01:10:29.100
dot dot slash app dot pi and then maybe read like some-


01:10:29.100 --> 01:10:30.100
- Right. - Source code


01:10:30.100 --> 01:10:33.060
with like a token that I've, you know,


01:10:33.060 --> 01:10:34.400
put in there that I shouldn't have put in there,


01:10:34.400 --> 01:10:36.500
but then now it's public.


01:10:36.500 --> 01:10:40.020
- Yeah, relative paths should work just fine.


01:10:40.020 --> 01:10:44.540
There's also, I think with PyScript,


01:10:44.540 --> 01:10:47.860
the distinction between development time


01:10:47.860 --> 01:10:50.140
and deployment time or bundling time


01:10:50.140 --> 01:10:54.700
is a little more highlighted.


01:10:54.700 --> 01:10:59.140
As a developer, I'd love to have those relative paths


01:10:59.140 --> 01:11:04.820
and explore and have full access to a lot of libraries.


01:11:04.820 --> 01:11:08.300
But when I deploy, I bundle my application,


01:11:08.300 --> 01:11:11.380
one of the things that we are very interested in developing


01:11:11.380 --> 01:11:15.020
more is we should bundle that as one thing.


01:11:15.020 --> 01:11:19.140
And the path should be absolute so there is no issues


01:11:19.140 --> 01:11:20.980
with what you're saying.


01:11:20.980 --> 01:11:24.700
We could bundle the interpreter and your dependencies


01:11:24.700 --> 01:11:28.020
so that we can optimize size,


01:11:28.020 --> 01:11:30.900
remove dependencies that you're not using.


01:11:30.900 --> 01:11:33.500
So, you know, the loading time is smaller,


01:11:33.500 --> 01:11:34.640
basically three shake,


01:11:34.640 --> 01:11:38.420
like a lot of JavaScript libraries do.


01:11:38.420 --> 01:11:41.940
So yeah, there are definitely patterns to explore


01:11:41.940 --> 01:11:43.100
and that's an area to.


01:11:43.100 --> 01:11:44.980
- Yeah, okay.


01:11:44.980 --> 01:11:47.860
I mean, yeah, you definitely don't wanna go dot dot slash


01:11:47.860 --> 01:11:50.380
app because somebody could then inject that.


01:11:50.380 --> 01:11:54.420
But it's interesting.


01:11:54.420 --> 01:11:56.700
I'll be cool to see what you all do there.


01:11:56.700 --> 01:11:59.980
But definitely, that's the only thing that's come to mind.


01:11:59.980 --> 01:12:02.220
I wonder what's going to happen there.


01:12:02.220 --> 01:12:05.220
Let's see.


01:12:05.220 --> 01:12:07.060
[INTERPOSING VOICES]


01:12:07.060 --> 01:12:15.260
App, it's basically on you to define what you're actually


01:12:15.260 --> 01:12:18.320
serving as a static file server, right?


01:12:18.320 --> 01:12:23.740
- I see, so if it's not accessible as a static file already


01:12:23.740 --> 01:12:26.040
this will just 404?


01:12:26.040 --> 01:12:26.880
- Yeah.


01:12:26.880 --> 01:12:31.440
- Okay, then Flask Pyramid friends have it covered.


01:12:31.440 --> 01:12:32.940
Yeah. - Yeah, exactly.


01:12:32.940 --> 01:12:34.500
- Okay, now I see where it's,


01:12:34.500 --> 01:12:36.580
so it's just, you're like, it's not our responsibility,


01:12:36.580 --> 01:12:39.860
but you shouldn't be allowing, you know,


01:12:39.860 --> 01:12:43.860
slash static slash dot dot slash app.py


01:12:43.860 --> 01:12:45.560
being served anyway, right?


01:12:45.560 --> 01:12:46.640
- Right. - Okay, cool.


01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:49.600
The other thing is, one of the things


01:12:49.600 --> 01:12:51.560
that Steve Dower talked about recently


01:12:51.560 --> 01:12:56.560
is that they started enable the real, the full CPython


01:12:56.560 --> 01:13:03.700
to being built within scripting WebAssembly targets.


01:13:03.700 --> 01:13:06.880
Is this of interest to you all?


01:13:06.880 --> 01:13:09.160
Does this-- - Very much.


01:13:09.160 --> 01:13:13.200
- Is this super speed PyIoDyed's version in some way?


01:13:13.200 --> 01:13:15.560
is what Pyodide's version actually is?


01:13:15.560 --> 01:13:22.120
- So the Pyodide team and the CPython on Wasm team


01:13:22.120 --> 01:13:28.480
are collaborating on making the two,


01:13:28.480 --> 01:13:31.000
making Pyodide basically use that


01:13:31.000 --> 01:13:33.200
as a baseline Python interpreter.


01:13:33.200 --> 01:13:36.040
That actually would be very helpful


01:13:36.040 --> 01:13:38.720
to the Pyodide team as well.


01:13:38.720 --> 01:13:41.840
They would have way less things to maintain.


01:13:41.840 --> 01:13:46.240
they can just delegate to the improvements


01:13:46.240 --> 01:13:50.240
and optimizations that the CPython core team


01:13:50.240 --> 01:13:54.820
they're doing and can focus on the additional features


01:13:54.820 --> 01:13:55.660
of Pyodide.


01:13:55.660 --> 01:13:59.500
So that actually is, we had a--


01:13:59.500 --> 01:14:01.520
- Right, they're building in the WebAssembly version


01:14:01.520 --> 01:14:02.560
'cause it didn't exist.


01:14:02.560 --> 01:14:04.680
That's probably not what they wanted to do, right?


01:14:04.680 --> 01:14:06.580
- Exactly, yes, yes.


01:14:06.580 --> 01:14:08.120
- Yeah, okay.


01:14:08.120 --> 01:14:09.800
Their real innovation, I think,


01:14:09.800 --> 01:14:11.640
in addition to just getting the WebAssembly thing


01:14:11.640 --> 01:14:18.000
working is like, how do you bring these important C mixed C


01:14:18.000 --> 01:14:22.920
libraries in like NumPy and such to the browser that otherwise


01:14:22.920 --> 01:14:25.960
wouldn't just drop in as you know, Python stuff running on


01:14:25.960 --> 01:14:31.080
top of the interpreter. Right, that that seems to be the most


01:14:31.080 --> 01:14:34.760
important thing that they're, they brought to the table.


01:14:34.760 --> 01:14:37.040
Right,


01:14:37.040 --> 01:14:40.160
exactly. Not discounting that, like there was not a WebAssembly


01:14:40.160 --> 01:14:42.000
and they made that also happen, right?


01:14:42.000 --> 01:14:46.000
Like that's also super important, but I guess


01:14:46.000 --> 01:14:48.520
what makes them more distinct of all the other attempts


01:14:48.520 --> 01:14:50.180
is that they're really focused on making sure


01:14:50.180 --> 01:14:53.560
the data science libraries work in this situation.


01:14:53.560 --> 01:14:57.640
- Yes, I think that is one of the main things


01:14:57.640 --> 01:15:02.640
that made PyDive successful because it, you know,


01:15:02.640 --> 01:15:08.600
a lot of times you would support just the language itself


01:15:08.600 --> 01:15:12.400
And then when you want to support more complex use cases,


01:15:12.400 --> 01:15:14.840
like C dependencies, you are too far


01:15:14.840 --> 01:15:17.280
in the process of your implementation.


01:15:17.280 --> 01:15:20.240
And then you're like, oh, now we have to rewrite half


01:15:20.240 --> 01:15:23.480
of the code to refactor, to account for, you know,


01:15:23.480 --> 01:15:26.560
a lot of the complexities.


01:15:26.560 --> 01:15:28.520
- We got to backfill it so we have support


01:15:28.520 --> 01:15:29.340
for all these things.


01:15:29.340 --> 01:15:31.840
How are we going to write our own NumPy now or something?


01:15:31.840 --> 01:15:32.680
- Right, yeah.


01:15:32.680 --> 01:15:37.440
And C extensions are always the place


01:15:37.440 --> 01:15:39.880
where most projects have a hard time, right?


01:15:39.880 --> 01:15:44.560
Like historically, the different implementations of Python


01:15:44.560 --> 01:15:48.680
and .NET or PyPI or others.


01:15:48.680 --> 01:15:52.960
CX Nations has always been like the trouble kid.


01:15:52.960 --> 01:15:53.800
- It definitely is.


01:15:53.800 --> 01:15:55.860
It's also tricky for the GIL.


01:15:55.860 --> 01:15:58.260
It's also tricky for thinking about reference counting


01:15:58.260 --> 01:16:00.880
versus other collection cleanup type.


01:16:00.880 --> 01:16:03.360
Yeah, it's an important boundary to be aware of,


01:16:03.360 --> 01:16:05.320
but it's also really been a lot.


01:16:05.320 --> 01:16:06.540
All right, final thing.


01:16:06.540 --> 01:16:09.420
Let's just wrap this up with what's next,


01:16:09.420 --> 01:16:10.380
where you're going.


01:16:10.380 --> 01:16:16.260
- So I think I hinted at a lot of those,


01:16:16.260 --> 01:16:20.340
I think the main thing for us in the immediate future


01:16:20.340 --> 01:16:23.540
is really to work with the community


01:16:23.540 --> 01:16:28.540
and build up more of that side of things.


01:16:28.540 --> 01:16:33.140
And then also work on documentation


01:16:33.140 --> 01:16:37.380
to put out also the vision and what's next.


01:16:37.380 --> 01:16:39.460
There are a bunch of things that are really interesting


01:16:39.460 --> 01:16:41.500
that we will be looking at, right?


01:16:41.500 --> 01:16:44.940
Like a reactive layer or components


01:16:44.940 --> 01:16:49.060
to interact with each other and notify each other.


01:16:49.060 --> 01:16:55.340
The story around data and what,


01:16:55.340 --> 01:16:59.120
how does working with data look like in PyScript?


01:17:00.260 --> 01:17:03.340
a lot of development around the possibilities


01:17:03.340 --> 01:17:07.660
of using PyScript in a peer-to-peer


01:17:07.660 --> 01:17:11.060
or web three sort of scenario, right?


01:17:11.060 --> 01:17:14.940
What can we make to support applications


01:17:14.940 --> 01:17:16.380
talking to each other directly,


01:17:16.380 --> 01:17:20.940
or using a mode where you work offline and online


01:17:20.940 --> 01:17:25.140
and you can make the experience better.


01:17:25.140 --> 01:17:28.900
- Right, like a little bit of a progressive web app


01:17:28.900 --> 01:17:31.780
- Exactly. - Tiny thing, yeah.


01:17:31.780 --> 01:17:34.180
I'd be super excited to see that come along.


01:17:34.180 --> 01:17:39.180
- Yeah, honestly, one of the difficulties with this project


01:17:39.180 --> 01:17:44.180
is that it breaks so many patterns that we are used to,


01:17:44.180 --> 01:17:46.500
both like, oh, I'm running my thing on my machine


01:17:46.500 --> 01:17:49.040
or on a server, or I'm doing a web.


01:17:49.040 --> 01:17:51.640
It means, okay, it means that I always have a server


01:17:51.640 --> 01:17:56.580
and a client side, and they have the network in between.


01:17:56.580 --> 01:18:01.980
Now we're shifting the paradigms and a lot of things are new,


01:18:01.980 --> 01:18:04.480
so we can explore.


01:18:04.480 --> 01:18:06.600
The other thing that we're looking at,


01:18:06.600 --> 01:18:11.340
well, better support for the optimization, loading times,


01:18:11.340 --> 01:18:13.940
all of those things.


01:18:13.940 --> 01:18:17.340
How can you hold state of your application?


01:18:17.340 --> 01:18:20.660
So basically, as it's running, et cetera,


01:18:20.660 --> 01:18:25.500
or if you just have a notebook-like workflow,


01:18:25.500 --> 01:18:28.080
how can you save the state of your PyScript app


01:18:28.080 --> 01:18:29.320
and share with others?


01:18:29.320 --> 01:18:32.120
And they can start from the same point you were.


01:18:32.120 --> 01:18:37.880
- Yeah, those are all great things to be working towards.


01:18:37.880 --> 01:18:43.320
Is this tying in any way to JupyterLite?


01:18:43.320 --> 01:18:46.020
I mean, it's got similar goals.


01:18:46.020 --> 01:18:49.020
I'm not sure if it has any similar foundations or anything.


01:18:51.500 --> 01:18:56.500
Maybe I'm very familiar with the Jupyter folks.


01:18:56.500 --> 01:18:59.500
I work together with many of the core developers


01:18:59.500 --> 01:19:03.860
and historically, JupyterLite is a great project


01:19:03.860 --> 01:19:08.260
that basically implements the Jupyter notebooks


01:19:08.260 --> 01:19:13.260
using Pyodide as a runtime or a shell.


01:19:13.260 --> 01:19:16.200
- Yeah, so it's not that far out


01:19:16.200 --> 01:19:19.260
of being maybe in a similar space, but yeah.


01:19:19.260 --> 01:19:21.740
- Right, it's similar in that sense


01:19:21.740 --> 01:19:26.620
that it ties right into the Jupyter experience.


01:19:26.620 --> 01:19:30.180
So it has it's locked into the notebook flow


01:19:30.180 --> 01:19:33.620
and authoring notebooks and stuff like that,


01:19:33.620 --> 01:19:38.020
where PyScript is more, has a larger scope


01:19:38.020 --> 01:19:40.660
and it's really to author applications


01:19:40.660 --> 01:19:43.140
and a little different.


01:19:43.140 --> 01:19:45.020
- Okay, very interesting.


01:19:46.580 --> 01:19:49.500
All right, well, congratulations.


01:19:49.500 --> 01:19:51.140
This seems like a pretty promising project


01:19:51.140 --> 01:19:53.020
and I know there's a lot of interest in it.


01:19:53.020 --> 01:19:56.520
Let me close it out with a comment from the audience.


01:19:56.520 --> 01:19:59.540
Andre Mueller said, "I tried Jinja.


01:19:59.540 --> 01:20:03.840
"The Jinja wheel just straight up with PyScript


01:20:03.840 --> 01:20:06.660
"and it works straight away, like no changes."


01:20:06.660 --> 01:20:10.300
So that's kind of meta actually.


01:20:10.300 --> 01:20:13.980
Jinja within PyScript within HTML.


01:20:13.980 --> 01:20:14.820
Love it.


01:20:14.820 --> 01:20:15.900
- Yeah.


01:20:15.900 --> 01:20:17.220
- Awesome.


01:20:17.220 --> 01:20:19.020
All right, well, let me ask you the final two questions


01:20:19.020 --> 01:20:20.500
before we get out of here.


01:20:20.500 --> 01:20:22.140
If you're gonna write some Python code,


01:20:22.140 --> 01:20:24.440
what editor are you doing using these days?


01:20:24.440 --> 01:20:32.000
- It's usually a mix between VS Code or PyCharm.


01:20:32.000 --> 01:20:33.800
- All right, cool.


01:20:33.800 --> 01:20:35.900
Yeah, both good.


01:20:35.900 --> 01:20:40.900
And notable PyPI package or some other kind of,


01:20:40.900 --> 01:20:42.660
maybe it doesn't come quite off PyPI,


01:20:42.660 --> 01:20:45.180
maybe it comes off a CDN these days.


01:20:45.180 --> 01:20:47.180
Hi, script, obviously.


01:20:47.180 --> 01:20:49.180
What do you want to give a shout out to?


01:20:49.180 --> 01:20:55.020
- Well, I gave a lot of shout outs to Piodyde.


01:20:55.020 --> 01:20:58.060
Once again, it's a great project.


01:20:58.060 --> 01:21:01.540
I think I use notebooks


01:21:01.540 --> 01:21:05.000
and the whole Jupyter ecosystem a lot as well.


01:21:05.000 --> 01:21:07.460
The whole scientific stack


01:21:07.460 --> 01:21:10.380
and a lot of the things that are around,


01:21:10.380 --> 01:21:13.420
you know, the many interesting projects like,


01:21:14.260 --> 01:21:19.260
you know, NumPy, Pandas, Dask, Bokeh, Numba.


01:21:19.260 --> 01:21:24.300
A lot of that ecosystem is really


01:21:24.300 --> 01:21:27.160
in my day-to-day kind of workflow.


01:21:27.160 --> 01:21:28.620
- Yeah, fantastic.


01:21:28.620 --> 01:21:29.460
- Yeah.


01:21:29.460 --> 01:21:31.540
- Cool, cool.


01:21:31.540 --> 01:21:34.140
All right, well, once again, congratulations


01:21:34.140 --> 01:21:37.180
on all the interest and excitement.


01:21:37.180 --> 01:21:39.640
It's really taken off the last couple of weeks.


01:21:39.640 --> 01:21:43.060
So thanks for coming on the show and talking about it.


01:21:43.060 --> 01:21:44.860
Thank you so much for the opportunity.


01:21:44.860 --> 01:21:46.620
I had a great time chatting about it.


01:21:46.620 --> 01:21:48.540
- And final call action, people want to get started.


01:21:48.540 --> 01:21:49.380
What do they do?


01:21:49.380 --> 01:21:51.900
- Great, great question.


01:21:51.900 --> 01:21:54.540
Go to PyScript.net, check the website.


01:21:54.540 --> 01:21:57.620
We have links to the repo and to the--


01:21:57.620 --> 01:22:01.060
- Very interesting install steps here.


01:22:01.060 --> 01:22:04.040
And it says, ah, no, you don't install it.


01:22:04.040 --> 01:22:06.360
- Yes, we hope people would click


01:22:06.360 --> 01:22:10.220
and actually see the Easter egg, which was good.


01:22:11.200 --> 01:22:17.080
And yeah, we really want to be an inclusive community.


01:22:17.080 --> 01:22:19.960
So if you have questions or you want to report bugs,


01:22:19.960 --> 01:22:22.520
or just ask where you can help, just


01:22:22.520 --> 01:22:26.440
reach out either on Twitter or reach out


01:22:26.440 --> 01:22:29.560
on the repo, open bugs there.


01:22:29.560 --> 01:22:32.360
In the next few weeks, you should


01:22:32.360 --> 01:22:37.760
expect more documentation on community engagement,


01:22:37.760 --> 01:22:39.940
having a discussions group


01:22:39.940 --> 01:22:43.620
where people can actually ask questions more easily.


01:22:43.620 --> 01:22:46.800
We're evaluating starting bi-weekly


01:22:46.800 --> 01:22:48.460
or something like that community call


01:22:48.460 --> 01:22:50.500
where we just are there for the community


01:22:50.500 --> 01:22:53.800
to ask questions live on a Zoom or something like this.


01:22:53.800 --> 01:22:55.060
So be patient.


01:22:55.060 --> 01:22:59.220
We're getting there to support our community


01:22:59.220 --> 01:23:02.820
and allow people to actually contribute back.


01:23:02.820 --> 01:23:04.820
- Cool, well, very exciting.


01:23:04.820 --> 01:23:05.660
Thanks for doing it.


01:23:05.660 --> 01:23:06.900
Thanks for being here.


01:23:06.900 --> 01:23:07.720
Thank you.


01:23:07.720 --> 01:23:08.560
- Thank you.


01:23:08.560 --> 01:23:10.300
- You bet, bye.