JEREMY NARBY

The following conversation is excerpted from The Psychotropic Mind: The World according to Ayahuasca, Iboga, and Shamanismby anthropologist Jeremy Narby, filmmaker Jan Kounen, and writer/filmmaker Vincent avalec, available from Inner Traditions Bear & Company. Vincent: The ayahuasca experience can be separated from shamanism. We can ta e ayahuasca, for example, in an urban setting and ha!e a !ery strong experience, one not necessarily connected to the ancestral experience of shamanism. The experience of shamanism is "uite close to nature, #hich actually functions #ith interfaces of spirits$ and someone #ho ta es ayahuasca is not necessarily going to encounter, I don%t no#, the parrot god #ho #ill come tal to him in his dreams or the green mouse #ho drops by to say hello. &e is going to see something else. While someone is ha!ing the experience in a shamanic setting, one is going to go through its conceptual system. And you can ha!e !ery strong shamanic experiences #ithout ta ing ayahuasca. 'ut it so happens that ayahuasca is a !ery formidable agent for altering consciousness. Jan: What is ayahuasca, for you( Vincent: Physically, it is a be!erage that is "uite unpleasant to drin . )o# there are different blends, depending on the shamans #ho bre# it. . . . Jeremy: Would you agree that it is the *oncorde of hallucinogens( Vincent: )ot at all. I am far from ha!ing tried e!erything, but there are people ayahuasca does not affect !ery strongly. I ha!e seen people ta e it, it did not really resonate #ith them. The experience is different depending on the psychotropic +consciousness opener+ that you ta e. This one has one specific feature$ after#ard, ho# to define it . . . Jeremy: All right, I #ill gi!e it a shot all the same, if #e are going to discuss the experience it induces. When I experimented #ith it for the first time, #hen I #as t#enty,fi!e, I already had had some experiences #ith hemp, psylocibin mushrooms, and -S. under my belt. I thought I ne# a little about these inds of things, and my ayahuasca experience stupefied me #ith the strength, po#er, and depth in its imagery. It #as flat,out large fluorescent flo#s, three,dimensional images #ith a distinctly hallucinatory consistency e!en though -S. is reputed to be the strongest hallucinogen, and molecularly spea ing that is true: all it ta es is one hundred millionth of a gram and the parameters of consciousness are altered. -S. pro!ides distortions, amplifies colors, changes music, but as a rule ha!ing real hallucinations #ith -S. is hard. The same thing #ith psilocybin, too, #hich is in the molecular family of .MT: it is interesting, you hear !oices or get ideas in your head, but you rarely see things you ha!e ne!er seen before in your life. Scientists ha!e confirmed, moreo!er, that .MT, one of the acti!e molecules in the ayahuasca bre#, is a spectacularly !isual hallucinogen. Vincent: It%s true it is !ery spectacular. Jeremy: The ad!antage of ayahuasca, for the images, o!er /ust .MT is that ayahuasca lasts se!eral hours. And #hat%s more, something that is unsettling #ith regard to other hallucinogens ,, and I am including alcohol ,, is that you remain lucid inside, an obser!er. The anthropologist ta ing notes can be inside a maelstrom of !isual hallucinations. It is as if it #as a film at the mo!ies, a horror film or science,fiction mo!ie, you%re saying: +Wo#, #hat a film0+ Vincent: 1inally . . . the effect is sometimes so strong . . . this has happened to me, I

thin to you, too . . . that you ha!e difficulty mo!ing. Jeremy: 2ou cannot e!en ta e notes anymore. Jan: People often spea of .MT, but the !ine itself, the ayahuasca, beyond the fact that it can last se!eral hours, does something "uite particular: it causes drun [Link] is a !ery specific ind of drun enness, one that gi!es the indi!idual a ne# perception of his body, of his mo!ements in an organic le!el. It allo#s him to enter #orlds that are more li e !isions than hallucinations, because they ha!e a ind of consistency. It is not a distortion of reality, it is an entire other reality that is superimposed o!er reality, #hich remains reality. Inside this reality, ayahuasca triggers a drun enness that ma es the sub/ect extremely sensiti!e emotionally. Among the Ashaninca, there are rituals in #hich they first drin an ayahuasca bre# #ithout .MT. This causes them to cry and lets them encounter their deepest feelings. With ayahuasca, you are in the presence of a combination that allo#s you to see and feel at the same time, to simultaneously offer the mind a trip and a perception of the body%s organic nature. 1or me this is one of the specific features of the !ine: it authori3es the .MT to mo!e into the bloodstream and to be acti!e, but, o!erall, it causes this drun enness that is a state of particular sensiti!ity. . . . Vincent: . . . #hich is connected to the emotions, for you( Jan: . . . #hich is connected to feelings, emotions, but #hich ma es you go aaahhhh. . . 0 It is not the .MT that produces the intoxication. Jeremy: I agree #ith you again #ith the #ords that people use in the Peru!ian Ama3on. 4egarding the drun enness, you are as ed, once you ha!e been administered the ayahuasca: +5st6s mareado(+ +Are you nauseous(+ This is something that specifically affects the stomach. In the meantime, science tells us that the brain, #hich is in the s ull, is connected to one hundred million neurons that constitute the autonomous ner!ous system. In fact, the brain goes from the solar plexus up into the s ull, and it so happens that ayahuasca begins by affecting the stomach and e!erything that goes #ith it. In our culture, nausea is a negati!e thing: for the indigenous people, it is the heart of the matter. They say, and my experience confirms it, that the !isions are strongest #hile you are !omiting, /ust before and /ust after you !omit. This implies that #hen the nausea increases, the intensity of the !isions increases #ith it. Vincent: I ha!e to say that I don%t follo# you here. Jeremy: . . . And the people are !ery clear about the fact that it is a purge, #hich is #hat they call it, the purga. 'efore it gi!es you mo!ies in your head, it cleanses you. It literally ma es you crap, but that is #hat it is meant to do. Ama3onian medicine #or s #ith purges. And in a purged body, the animal neocortex can imagine all inds of #orlds. Tigrane: Isn%t it true that #hen you purge, #hether by the mouth or anus, there is an image of letting go in #hich you /ettison your garbage. 2ou turn inside out so you can ta e off #ith less #eight. . . . Jan: I #ould say that one thing I%!e learned is that you really need to concentrate on your perception of your stomach, your intestines, so that they relax. 2ou start off feeling li e a pile of organs. )ext, plunge in to a relaxed state that #ill carry you through this nausea, and ho# feeling sic scares you. It%s a "uestion of practice. And I #ould say, after se!en years of practice, that ayahuasca has helped me to percei!e my mind,organ relationship in a ne# #ay. I did an experiment one day. I #anted to learn /ust ho# far one could refine the perception of the experience on the body, so I too ayahuasca and #ent into a sensory depri!ation tan . Incidentally, the thought "uic ly came to me, after about ten minutes, that this #as a !ery bad idea, because it

intensified the strength of the experience. 'ut the Indians teach you ho# to get through all these states, e!en states that are "uite strong. Also I ha!e se!eral hours of astral /ourneying behind me, so I got through the thing. 'ut because of it I #as able to obser!e my organs in an enhanced #ay. When you are floating in a sensory depri!ation tan , you are obliged to relax your body. 2ou no longer no# #hich side is up, #hich side is do#n, you are floating in the !oid. Vincent: 2ou did this #here( Jan: It doesn%t really matter$ I did it in a tan . . . . I #ill tell you someday #hat country I #ent to to do this. 'ut by forcing me to be completely relaxed this allo#ed me to reali3e: +What is this gigantic train I am hearing( It is the roar of my arteries beating at their normal rhythm. What is that terrible noise( It%s my organs rumbling because of the !ine, #hich is ma ing me a#are of them. . . .+ I felt the blood flo#ing through my !eins. I helped myself, singing the songs of traditional shamans to help me ma e the /ourney, I truly entered that #orld, and I often tal about it because it is a tool of self,disco!ery. It is also feeling the arri!al of fear. Ayahuasca is going to ma e you feel fears that come from far a#ay. The shaman #ill guide you to pull yourself out at /ust the right moment, in any case that%s my experience, but once you ha!e something that is not #or ing in your life, you #ill feel the #arning sign of fear, your body #ill ha!e a ne# attitude because it has been educated by the healers that #ay. And I thin that one of the things that shamans do is eep their bodies completely relaxed during the time they ha!e terrible nausea, so that their physical #ell,being can guide the mind into a territory of #ell,being$ and they pro/ect this #ell,being to#ard others. . . . Vincent: It%s a profession. Jan: It is a profession: to feel #ell, tran"uil, poised #hile you are turned upside do#n physically and psychologically. 7ften shamans ha!e told me: +1irst ma e yourself comfortable, then thin of the person you are treating #ith good and beautiful thoughts.+ 7ne may thin that these are simple things, but it is "uite complicated because #hen a plant strips you bare, it strips bare your fears, your fantasies, your terrors. It forces you to encounter the feeling of death$ e!en if it is !irtual, your mind is still going to percei!e it. It is going to percei!e the mortal organic mechanism, #hich is going to be unplugged one day, scaring you e!en more. -earning to cross through these stages in order to li!e more intensely appears to be one of the shaman%s, the healer%s, modes of operation. Vincent: While #e are on this sub/ect, it should be pointed out that a shaman #ho is guiding a ceremony often ta es less ayahuasca than the people participating in it. Jan: )ot necessarily. I am only familiar #ith Shipibo,*onibo shamanism, so I can only spea of a !ery limited branch of the practice. I #ould say that actually the shaman sometimes ta es a little less, but you must reali3e that he ta es it e!ery day so he is saturated. The transition bet#een his natural state during the day and his state during the session is less significant. Vincent: 8uite so$ but he doesn%t necessarily ta e a "uart of ayahuasca before guiding a session. Jan: In any case, I ha!e seen Shipibo shamans ta e "uite substantial doses, the e"ui!alent of a #hole glass of extremely strong plants, for specific moments. Vincent: And perform( Jan: 2es, I e!en belie!e that in the session that can be seen at the end of .%autres mondes 97ther Worlds:, #here, incidentally, I am laid out on the floor, it is also "uite intense for them. I can see it by loo ing at the images. So, I%!e seen both cases. It%s true that if they #ant to get up and do things, they may ta e less. 'ut the notion of

"uantity is a surprising thing. I #as in Peru se!eral #ee s ago. 7ut of fi!e sessions, I #as arri!ing at the fourth, and #hen the curandero entered the room, all at once I felt my intoxication increase. I felt it #as going to be "uite strong. I ne# it #as going to be an important session. I ne# that, #hate!er "uantity I too , this session #as going to be the strongest e!en though the pre!ious e!ening I had ta en t#ice as much, and the next day I #ould ta e t#ice as much again. And the session #as "uite strong. I thin that the shaman is capable of inducing an experience in you through his o#n po#er independently of the plant. Vincent: That%s ob!ious. 'ut #e are getting into an explanation of processes that are hard to put into #ords because #e do not no# all the inner #or ings. And e!en if #e ne# all the inner #or ings, I do not thin it #ould say much to many people. It is ob!ious that shamans ha!e a +technical s ill+ that goes beyond the ta ing of psychotropic substances$ other#ise /ust anybody could be a shaman. *ertainly shamans, #here!er they li!e, truly possess a no#,ho# that #ould appear li e magic, if #e could really see it. Jan: What is magic( Vincent: ;ust li e #hen you sho#ed up fifty years ago #ith a #al ie,tal ie, it #as magic. Jan: 5xactly. Jeremy Narby is an anthropologist and writer best known for his books The *osmic Serpent and Intelligence in )ature. Narby spent years living with the !shaninca in the "eruvian !ma#on cataloging indigenous uses of rain forest resources to help combat ecological destruction$ %ince &'(', Narby has been working as the !ma#onian pro)ects director for the %wiss N*+, )ou!elle Plan<te. ,ilmmaker Jan Kounen has created a number of films and documentaries, including the celebrated 'lueberry, released in the -nited %tates as 4enegades. Vincent Ravalec is the screenwriter, producer, and director of numerous films as well as the author of many books in ,rench$ .e is co/author of Iboga: The =isionary 4oots of African Shamanism.