Hashirama vs.

Madara Debate Analysis

This document presents a structured analysis of the Hashirama vs. Madara debate,
evaluating each argument and counter-argument to determine the more accurate
interpretation based on manga evidence.

Point Person A's Person B's Counter Who is More Correct

Argument & Why?
Hashirama vs. - Hashirama didn't - Base Hashirama Person B.
Madara Fight overwhelm Madara, handling EMS Hashirama held his
Dynamics he was mainly Madara + Kurama own against EMS
defending. proves he was Madara + Kurama in
- The fight lasted stronger. base, proving he
longer than 25 - "Overwhelming" was superior. The
pages. doesn't mean one- exact **26 pages**
- Hashirama fought shotting; it means prove Person A
EMS Madara + having clear exaggerated.
Kurama in base and dominance.
wasn’t - The fight lasted
overwhelmed. **26 pages**, not 15
- Hashirama didn’t or an entire day.
want to kill Madara, - Exhaustion doesn't
so he fought mean the fight was
defensively. longer than shown.
Madara Using - Madara using - Calling it "just Person B.
Kurama Was Just Kurama was foreshadowing" is a Foreshadowing
Foreshadowing for foreshadowing for weak argument. doesn’t erase in-
Sasuke Sasuke’s future - If foreshadowing universe logic.
ability. invalidates feats, **Madara using
- Madara using then even Naruto Kurama was a real
Kurama wasn't a big and Sasuke using advantage.**
deal since avatars against Hashirama
Hashirama was Juubito or countered it, but
much stronger. Momoshiki could be that doesn’t mean it
- Saying Kurama dismissed. was irrelevant.
made a difference is - Madara **did** use
an excuse. Susanoo-clad
Kurama, and it was
an advantage in the
fight.
- Using plot as an
excuse weakens
power-scaling logic.
Origins of Power in - Power scaling is - Origins **are** Person B. Power
Power Scaling inconsistent considered (e.g., scaling **does**
because people "Naruto is nothing consider origins
don’t consider the without Kurama," when relevant.
origins of power in "Sasuke is strong Learning Sage Mode
 every case. because of Itachi's is different from
- If origins matter, eyes," etc.). inheriting power.
then nobody has - **Sage Mode is
their "own" power learned**, unlike
(chakra from inherited abilities
Kaguya, Sage Mode like EMS or
from nature, etc.). Rinnegan.
- Chakra origins
don’t mean
everyone’s power is
borrowed—Shinobi
refine their own
chakra.
Madara’s Intentions - Madara didn’t seek - Madara Person B. Madara
for Rinnegan & Ten- the Rinnegan or **needed** the himself stated he
Tails Ten-Tails to surpass Rinnegan, needed Hashirama’s
Hashirama, only to Hashirama’s cells, power to awaken
execute Infinite and the Ten-Tails to the Rinnegan.
Tsukuyomi. surpass Hashirama. Achieving this
- Achieving these **did** make him
power-ups **did** stronger.
make him stronger
than Hashirama.
- The plan and the
power-up were
connected, but the
power-up was still
significant.
Base Hashirama vs. - At the end of the - Madara didn’t Person B. Base
Base Madara at the fight, both **choose** to stop Hashirama at the
End Hashirama and using EMS & start > Base
Madara were in Kurama—he Hashirama at the
base form, meaning **lost** access to end (same for
they were equal. them. Madara). Saying
- The base versions they were equal
at the end were ignores the fact that
much weaker than **Madara lost access
their starting forms to his strongest
due to exhaustion. abilities.**
- Hashirama was
**more fatigued**
from fighting EMS
Madara + Kurama
while holding back.
The Battle Turning - If the fight didn’t - That’s just **plot** Person B. Saying
in Hashirama’s turn in Hashirama’s —power scaling “the battle turned in
Favor favor, the outcome doesn’t stop Hashirama’s favor”
would have been because of it. is meaningless.
different. - Madara becoming Every battle has a
stronger later in winner. That doesn't
 Shippuden was still change scaling.
valid despite the
plot.
Edo Fight Between - Madara wasn’t - Hashirama’s Person B. Edo
Hashirama & trying against Edo **Wood Dragon Madara was
Madara Hashirama because nullified** Madara’s **physically
he was waiting for chakra absorption unable** to counter
Obito’s actions. ability. Hashirama’s sealing
- Madara attack. Saying he
**couldn’t** react to was "waiting"
Hashirama’s doesn’t change the
Gracious Deity fact that **he was
Gates, proving the restrained.**
power gap.
- If he could have
escaped, he **would
have**, but he
didn’t.

Final Verdict: Who Wins the Debate?

**Winner: Person B**
- **Stronger arguments** based on **manga evidence**, rather than assumptions.
- **Consistent power-scaling logic**, without making excuses like “plot” or “foreshadowing.”
- **Debunked misconceptions** (e.g., base Hashirama at the end wasn’t at full power,
Madara didn’t stop using Kurama by choice, etc.).

Person A **relied too much on assumptions** and **ignored context**, while **Person B
backed up every claim with direct manga evidence and logical scaling.**