Perception
Perception
Obviously, most characters would immediately notice that there are lot of
people, it's noisy, the scent of ale is heavy in the air, and the floor might
be a little sticky. Because of all that, it may be difficult to immediately
notice anything dangerous or out of place, so the party asks to scan the
area for threats.
With <5, they don't notice anything, but a conversation with the barkeep
fills them in on a suspicious hooded figure in a dark corner across the
tavern
With a 10, they may also be able to tell if other patrons seem nervous
about the hooded figure, or how the barkeep keeps side-eyeing this
person while leaving one of their hands available to draw a weapon if
needed.
With a 15, they may be able to gauge how well armed/armored this
hooded person is.
With a 20+, they may also be able to discern this hooded person's
concerned expression in the brief glow of their lit pipe, and that they are
observing an inconspicuous group of young halflings that no one else
seems to have noticed.
I started doing this after players with good modifiers (thus higher passive
scores) were trying to do something like investigate a room for clues.
They rolled very poorly, and could realistically be doing this over the
course of several hours - or days if they really wanted to, and they asked
me how often they could make that check again. Just rolling until they got
a good roll felt weird, but it did make sense for them (when given a
plethora of time) to do very well at something like this. I implemented the
solution above because I think it can better represent a player's average
of a ton of checks about the same thing.
It has gone very well at my table, and 'feels' right. In case you are
wondering, I use passives for all skills. Hope someone finds this useful!
If they want more detailed info, I.e. How many people in the room are
armed, and with what, what kind of armor under the cloak that guy is
wearing, etc. I’ll have them roll. This is because there can be important
things they could potentially miss - on a low roll, they may see that there
are 5 people each with a sword, and feel very confident in that, but they
miss stuff like the very slight angled line in that one guy’s shirt that
indicates a hidden dagger, or the knife in another’s boot, or they can see
that there is some kind of rigid shape to the shoulder under that cloak, but
can’t tell whether it’s leather, plate, or something else.
Basically, if they could see or notice it without actively looking for it, (“What
do I see on the shelves?”) it’s passive. If they would have to make an
effort due to the nature of what they’re looking for (“Do any items on the
shelves look newer than the rest?”) or conditions like a crowded room,
they’re in combat, etc, then it’s a roll. If they have an extremely high
passive, and/or it’s borderline, I might give them advantage on the roll.
filcat: Not agree on the Perception skill being only passive. If there an
invisible monster nearby, a player can call for a Perception check to
determine his position, if the result of a contest with the monster Stealth
check is in your favour.
TheDarkFiddler: Though for what it's worth, I'd probably (personally)
allow a player to use Investigation if they were more methodical about it...
Perception would be trying to notice dust, hear breathing, while
Investigation would be walking about swinging your arms to feel for the
creature, or tossing dust to see how it's disturbed.
In that case, though, it's also a matter of the timescale you have available,
and become inconvenient to do in combat.
For example, in the case of a secret door a Wisdom check might find
scrapes on the floor indicating the door but an Intelligence check might tell
you that there is a suspiciously large wall space between two rooms or
that Dwarves commonly indicated concealed doors with carvings of
griffons.
For example, in the case of a door guard a Wisdom check might tell you
that her uniform doesn't fit right but an Intelligence check might tell you
that her rank is a lot higher than the duty requires.
All skills do is allow you to add your proficiency bonus to ability checks in
some situations. For example, deducing the presence of the concealed
door by calculating the size of the wall space might be Intelligence
(Investigation) but deducing its presence by the griffon carving might be
Intelligence (History).
Additionally, an optional rule says that skills are not necessarily tied to a
particular ability score. Sometimes you might make a Charisma
(Intimidation) roll, another time it might be a Strength (Intimidation) roll.
Short answer: Don't think of "skill checks"; think of "Ability Checks". First
determine the ability score required and then determine what skill
proficiencies, if any, might apply (it might be one, many, or even none).
I think it's fair that the DM can open up the conversation with the player.
The following are just some ideas for how to make perception checks
more fun and more personal to characters.
A DEX based character, like a rogue, might notice the same buildings but
see it from an acrobatics perspective. They're going to look around and
notice who has some full Pockets. They'll see the dark alleys, they'll see
the shadowy hiding places, they'll see even the not shadowy places
where they could just duck behind and get lost really quick.
Now, a busy City street is going to have a lot more going on for different
characters to notice. And if you did this every single time they entered a
new area, that might be a little overwhelming on the DM. That's, you
know, it's already so much work to create a world, but to maybe come up
with every single detail on the Fly. Maybe you're up for it, maybe it's a lot. I
was thinking it would be helpful to have some sort of checklist for every
single character, just to have a round, uh, a list of things that each
individual character might be more prone to notice in a city environment,
in nature, at night, you know, in different situations. You could also ask
your players to make a list for you, like, why do all the work yourself? I
also think think this would really help in a roleplay situation if you have
new players who aren't really sure what to look for, ask for. You have long-
term players who are just maybe a little more prone to combat play and
not as comfortable in roleplay situations, whatever it is. But if you tell them
this is what you notice in the city street, it will feel less like each and every
player sort of just huddled together in their adventuring crew while they
walk around the city doing everything at the same time, and more like they
are living, breathing characters noticing their own thing, going to check it
out, engaging with it. And of course, they don't have to engage with every
single thing they notice, but if they want to pursue a certain train of
thought or get into their character or talk to an NPC, it gives them a
starting place.
Maybe the party's Druid was actually raised as a noble before they ran
away from home to be more at one with nature. When they enter this city,
they're going to still notice fine tailoring. They're, as a druid too, going to
notice a very beautiful horse, but that Noble background will tell them how
much that horse is probably going to cost. They may may not be a more
heavily charismatic character, but in a social environment, they may
understand the nuances of the social or financial Elite.
The cleric was raised as a criminal. They left the life when they found their
God, decided they wanted to pursue A New Path, maybe a righteous path,
but that cleric can still read thieves cons. Maybe, uh, they still also notice
the full pocket, just like the Rogue does. They notice the Rogue not
noticing the full pocket. Maybe they walk into a shop and they're shopping
like normal, but still notice the shopkeeper habits: what they're paying
attention to, what they're not, what's more locked up than other things.
They'll see the city guard swap out. Note, it's just second nature for them
to look out for these things, whether or not they want to.
The wizard used to be a farmer, one who left the family business to go
pursue Arcane knowledge. But the older they get, they realize they can
also, just like their father could, feel the rain coming in their knees. They
understand weather patterns, they understand a certain level of nature
that most Wizards might be unfamiliar with. They feel more comfortable
standing on top of a windy building. Maybe they have calluses in their
hands and notice when other people do, recognize a hardworking person
even if they're not in the midst of hard work. And maybe the Barbarian
used to be a cultist living in that environment. Uh, they had to break out of
it through Brute Force, having to physically Escape in order to leave, or
maybe they left the cult in not such violent means, but got caught up in a
group of Barbarians who helped them follow a new path in life. Even if
they don't know what it means, they might recognize something as a
religious symbol before everyone else does. They might notice certain
behaviors that seem a bit cult-like to them. In social situations, they're not
completely blind to manipulative language.
So, if you think about their backgrounds alongside their stat strengths, I
feel like you could make a list for your players of these different things
they might notice. Maybe give it to them so it's less on you and more on
them to think, 'Oh, would I notice something like this? Is there something
in a city or in a certain environment that I would be more prone to look at?'
That's actually, hey, go me, great idea! Make them do it. I think a lot of my
ideas over time kind of start piling up work work on the DM, but there's no
reason you can't just do this as an exercise to help your players get more
into their characters, maybe as a session zero thing.
Comments 👍
There are a few situational penalties to Passive Perception that I think
are often overlooked:
Lighting: Dim lighting gives you disadvantage to sight based
perception checks, which would be -5 to passive. Torches and
the Light cantrip is bright only out to 20 feet and dim beyond that.
Characters without darkvision should be getting the penalty
unless they are in fairly close proximity to the object in question.
Move Speed: If a character moves more than 40 feet in a turn
(including dash option), then they get a straight -5 to penalties.
Also, when actively looking for traps while wandering a dungeon,
the party must move at a Slow speed unless someone has the
Dungeon Delver feat.
If a character is being chased through a cave system, they will
have a total of -10 to their passive perception to detect
ambushes and traps.
Also, a high passive perception means they notice quick details,
such as a loose floorboard a disturbance in the dust in the wall. I
do not let this mean they automatically know its a trap or secret
door. It will let them know that they ought to stop and take a
closer look, which is always an active check, and depending on
the situation, I may have them use perception or investigation.
This creates great tension when they know something is off, but
fail the follow up investigation checks.
Full honesty, this strikes me as your adaptation of the rules, not what
the rules intended. As JC said in the tweet, the players roll to notice
things that their passive didn't already find.
By simply walking into a room, you notice things. You do this
without looking, without even trying. Just today i walked down
stairs and noticed a moth on my ceiling. I wasn't looking for one,
but my passive perception noticed it. You are correct in that a
passive perception isn't technically a 'floor', because anything
noticeable by your passive perception number you should have
already seen, you already noticed it.
Rather, when characters enter a room, the DM should look at
everyone's passive perception (assuming they're using that rule),
apply modifiers, and then describe everything that number would
reveal. Anything above that number (hidden
traps/ambushes/hidden books) you don't describe unless the
party goes looking and rolls higher.
In a Sage Advice podcast segment, Jeremy Crawford (Lead
Rules Designer for D&D) clarifies this: Passive Perception is
always on. It’s impossible to roll an active Perception check that
is below your passive score. If you’re rolling, it’s just to see if you
can roll higher than your passive score.
[Link]
Design your games with your parties in mind. If you have
someone with a really high passive perception score, add in less
traps and more 'hidden rooms'. Reward the score, but keep the
modifiers in mind. "What's that, you have a passive perception of
18 and darkvision? Cool, but your did not use a light, so you
count as in dim light, so your perception is at disadvantage and
you suffer a -5 passive perception, sorry, you needed a 15 to
spot that trap, you trip it."
There is no 'passive attack', attack rolls represent a combination
of things, not just you swinging a sword. And in terms of the other
abilities, IE "Passive athletics." Sure, if time isn't an issue and
you can spend as much time as you'd like prying open a gate, go
ahead and use it. Say what you will about "Oh maybe you just
weren't on point at that moment." That moment is a life or death
moment with enemies abound and a wrong step meaning death.
You're on point. Your character is a highly trained and skill
adventurer in the middle of a dungeon full of monsters, they're
not thinking about other things at that moment. They're trying to
stay alive.
This video is basically just "I don't like to use passive perception"
followed by 15 minutes of reasons why you actually use passive
perception for most of what it's actually used for, but without caring
about the specific number... The problem exists almost entirely
because DMs aren't actually running it right (module mileage will
vary).
1. Passive scores in general are primarily the average result for
repeated tasks or to roll in secret, like when you run an old-school
dungeon crawl and don't want to roll perception checks for every
single tile; you only need to worry about travel pace and lighting.
Source: PHB, page 175.
2. The only passive skill with regular use in the core rules is stealth
vs passive perception for sneaking around. The rest are niche
exceptions. Source: Read the book. Confirmed also by
CTRL+Fing a digital DMG for the word "passive".
3. Crawford did not say that passive skills are the floor to your
success, that's taken out of context from a podcast in which he
was specifically talking about passive perception against stealth
checks. Not all perception checks, and not all skills.
4. Perception is for noticing clues, investigation is for actually
understanding them. For most hidden traps, detecting it should be
"The dust around this specific tile is absent", not "You found the
pressure plate trap". Source: DMG, page 104 (Concealed Doors);
DMG, page 238 (INT vs WIS checks).
5. Using passive perception for a trap is an OPTION, not a default
rule, as indicated by "you can" language with regards to
perception and traps. It is a choice that is up to the DM. If you run
fewer but more effective traps, you can just roll for it instead of
using the passive. If your dungeon has a 1d4 poison damage dart
trap every other tile, just use passive and be done with it.
In summary, passive perception should be used for noticing
things like the signs of a trap, not the actual trap itself, with clues
that do not actually tell you whether it's a trap. "A misshapen rug"
could be literally anything. Let your investigators learn more, or
let the Barbarian simply spring the trap all by himself, or however
they wish to handle the situation. You should only be using
passive perception if you would otherwise be making a lot of
perception checks from multiple players.
If you want to get a bit looser with things, passive perception
could simply reveal less than the active perception roll, prompting
players to try to learn more (or not). It could also simply give the
players who spring traps the chance to do something just before
it's set off, while those with low perception do not. Those are
options that don't spit on the rules or different builds because you
failed to run them right.
If that's not good enough, because "A high passive clears too
many checks too easily since 10+mods is pretty high", then you
can start with some homebrew.
Passives start at 8 instead of 10.
Increase reasonable DCs against PASSIVE perception only
(like it is in the Lost Mines of Phandelver, with DC15 vs
passive, and DC10 vs active, to find secret doors).
Whatever you do, don't set out to nerf the skill monkey playstyle
and waste the time of players who are simply building characters
in a way you don't like. Killing the reliability of skill-focused builds
because you "Don't like reliable talent, rolling dice is fun" is how
you either end up training your players to be DPR combat min-
maxers or you make them all play casters who have more
reliable spells.
It's a way for the DMs to determine a DC that their own NPCs have to
beat when interacting with a player.
Enemy rogue hides (Stealth) in combat. He has to beat your
passive Perception to do so. You MAY use your Action to
'actively' find them.
Evil cultist is trying to pass-off (Deception) as a normal street
merchant. He has to beat your passive Insight to do so.
Silly prankster tries to scare (Intimidation) your horse and cause
you to fall off. He has to beat your passive Animal Handling to do
so.
The way I do passive perception is that it acts like a spider sense. The
player gets a sense that something is wrong. You then roll to figure out
exactly what it is. It helps you build suspense as a DM.
An example from in game about how you can use it to build
tension is, when a monster is sneaking up on them. My players
were in the forest fighting as shadow demon that I gave the
ability to shadow stride. I would roll stealth for the demon and if it
was below this players passive perception I would say that he got
an ominous sense that he was being watched or that he heard a
twig snap or rustling leaves. If he failed his perception check
against the demon's stealth I would say that he saw something
out of the corner of his eye but when he looked there was
nothing there. Then the demon got to attack with advantage. If he
passed the perception check he would see the demon and could
choose to alert the party or attack etc.