00:00:01 - 00:01:21

Good evening. Thank you very much. It's a real pleasure and honor and I I thank the organizers
for inviting me and Sai and everyone else. A real pleasure. I am Shalini the moderator. Um it's
an absolutely uh wonderful auditorium as well and I've it's a I'm walking the hall portals of SRCC
after 34 years. Um it's really remarkable. I came here in 1989 but then uh my uh board
aggregate wasn't 100% so I joined the next best college which is St. Eagles College. Uh yes
and uh

00:00:41 - 00:01:50
although although we have a debate here on that but um in the in the lovely spirit of the debate
and um in that sense I think we all owe a lot to uh money his wonderful self-deprecating style
and you know little bit of sarcasm and bite and everything that goes on in debates. Um it's
wonderful to uh to have that in this debate as well. And just a small anecdote of how we are all
children of money in one sense. I didn't mean to give away his age by saying that. Um he
doesn't look a day older

00:01:15 - 00:02:36
than 95 but um at the alumni meet in St. Stevens College. Um the one preceding him was uh
ex- foreign minister Natwar Singh and he he got very um uh soggy eyed and he wrote in the
register that everything I am today I owe it to this college and then he went away and money
followed him and then money scribbled underneath what Nut had written. Why blame the
college? So that's but Uh coming swiftly uh back to the topic of the debate, I have to say this in
the spirit that I'm sure the other side

00:01:58 - 00:03:28
would accept gracefully is that even a drunk acupuncturist deliver less pain per square inch than
the arguments that we've heard so far from the other side. Uh the the reason for that is and but
the reason for that is which world are we living in? I mean it's just shocking because this is the
world of social media. You can't fool anyone now, especially the younger generation. I mean it's
just and let me start off by saying that we we believe what we see but unfortunately what we

00:02:51 - 00:04:09
see is increasingly being written by people who see what they believe and that is what the
media is. They are seeing what they believe. Journalism is justice delivered without the courts. It
is a public good. It is as important as delivering justice. And I'm stating the obvious here, but the
the tragedy is that most of the journalists that you see are busy peddling narratives. They have
become activists. They're not balanced anymore. They're not objective anymore. Even in
science that the moderator talked about co and I
00:03:30 - 00:04:44
say please do not bring politics into science because all then you would end up with is political
science. But the the and there's nothing wrong in that. But let I mean there are a dozen I don't
know how much time we have. Uh whatever x time I have I'll take 30 seconds more than that.
But uh the fact of the matter is I can bust a dozen narratives, fake narratives over the last 8
years that have been pedled and sigh can maybe bust a dozen more narratives but it's it
tiresome after a while

00:04:06 - 00:05:08
because then you are left asking what is the journalist's job if the reader if the viewer is there to
bust the narratives I mean let let me take what's what the other side And I just mean other side
as a rhetorical thing that we're all the same. We are all on the same side, right? But at least in
this debate, they've let me pick up the two issues that they've talked of. Money talked about
BBC. He talked about B force and he talked about how well-meaning and gracious the
government

00:04:38 - 00:05:47
was. I mean, I don't need to open that Pandora's box. I don't need to tell you how much stress
and how much draconian measures were put under Chitra Subramanyam when she was doing
the story of Bow force by Rajiv Gandhi and the PMO. I don't need to tell you when money talks
about the BBC and saying we didn't ban the BBC film, right? You didn't ban the film. You banned
the BBC for 2 years and it wasn't it wasn't under the emergency. It was before the emergency 2
years. So,

00:05:14 - 00:06:13
and this is the problem with journalism. It's somehow over the last 8 years, it is giving the
impression that everything bad that is happening in this country is happening for the first time.
That before 2014, India was a garden of Eden. Everything was perfect. And then we had this
Cambrian explosion that everything that could go wrong except for a nuclear explosion which
we don't even know maybe some newspaper would report a nuclear explosion has also
happened but everything that could

00:05:44 - 00:06:57
go wrong has gone wrong. Let me pick up the other thing that Mr. Kulkarnney talk of. He his
exact expression was lights are dimming. Honestly they seem pretty bright to me out here.
Democracy is under threat. democrac democracy is under threat. This is ridiculous and I'll I'll
prove it and this is the last um fake narrative that I I'm going to bust and before I pass it on to
Sai this democracies under threat every the biggest test of a functioning democracy and my
good friend Salman
00:06:21 - 00:07:31
would agree because he's he's in the court he's an eminent lawyer are two things the
independence of the Supreme Court and the independence of the Chief Election Commission.
Other than these two things, everything else is at the mercy of our constitution. And I put it to
you. I don't know what will happen to me once I say this that we have been a banana republic
ever since we became a republic. Our constitution, our constitution does not respect freedom of
speech and expression.

00:06:57 - 00:08:04
Period. And whatever little it did was then soon trampled within a few years by Neu's first
amendment. I'll come to that in a minute. The the fact of the matter is that all those who say
democracy is dead, lights are dimming and everything is happening for the first time. This
assault on democracy, sedition charges, antinational. Do they even know that under the UPA
and I'm not talking of Indra Gandhi emergency and you know one doesn't need to go far as far
back as that let's go

00:07:33 - 00:08:54
back only 8 or 9 years under the UPA it filed 12,000 sedition charges on activists 8 and a half
thousand on the same day and the then home minister Mr. Chidam. Yes. When he was asked
why you doing it, he said and I quote him these are all antinationals. Antinational. Antinational or
antinational. There are so many other examples like that. And what does it even need to go
back to the UPA days? Chhattisgarh government, Congress ruled government, they slapped a
sedition charge on a person who complained of a blackout, a

00:08:14 - 00:09:28
power cut. They filed a sedition charge under him. So many things are happening right now in
Congress ruled states but democracy is flourishing there. In Bengal a non-BJP ruled state, a
chemistry professor shared a cartoon of Mamata Banerjee. He was arrested two week ago this
news. We don't even know because the telegraph is all very prim and proper and doesn't want
to go against Mamata. He was acquitted after 11 years a chemistry professor. 11 years
democracy is flourishing is flourishing in Bengal.

00:08:53 - 00:09:55
So you know when we are this selective we need to answer ourselves more than we can
answer the public because journalism is a public good. And last couple of minutes I want to take
because this narrative really has to be busted. We all believe and we know that yes Rajiv
Gandhi banned a few things. He wasn't really liberal. the paragon of liberty and equality and
fraternity. Indra Gandhi of course brought in the emergency. A lot of things that this government
has done is also draconian and I have I have a list of that. This

00:09:24 - 00:10:46
government for example the BJP government in Gujarat. It jailed an editor for 15 days because
he criticized the COVID uh response of the then chief minister of Gujarat. So yes all these
things are happening. In fact, the most iconic phrase in the last 10 years that has been coined
has been by Mr. Arun Shi when he says that all the BJP is is Congress plus cow and app of
course is Congress plus Lama L M AO but that's another matter. BJP is no different from the
Congress. Please realize this. Everything that the BJP is

00:10:05 - 00:11:15
doing right now, everything wrong and everything right. The Congress has done it before.
There's nothing. There is no And you talk of corruption. The B I say BJP is corrupt. You know
why? Because the high court convicted the BJP of taking illegal money and violating the FC
rules. The punishment for that is 5 years imprisonment of the party head. Mr. Nada would be
rotting in Thihar right now. But what happened? The mistake that the court did was that the
court also convicted rightly the Congress party

00:10:39 - 00:11:47
BJP or Congress mil retrospectively they amended the FC act going back to the emergency era.
The high court was toothless. Nobody was arrested. Nobody was convicted. Why doesn't the
Congress say that the BJP is corrupt? Because the Congress has also been convicted. This is
the problem in this country. Nobody tells you these facts. People only tell you one-sided stories
like for example that Neu was the paragon of liberty and freedom. Everything else Indra Gandhi
might have done emergency but nua

00:11:14 - 00:12:30
didn't. Let me take the next couple of minutes and tell you what the the status of freedom of
speech and expression under Pandit Nu was under Javal Neu. The first amendment was
brought in reasonable restrictions, incitement, disruption of public order. Who decides who is
disrupting public order through freedom of speech? Poet Maju Sultanpuri was jailed for one year
for calling Nu Hitler Ka. One year one of our greatest songwriters and poets plotted in jail. Did
you know that first democratically elected communist

00:11:55 - 00:12:51
government in Kerala was dismissed? Congress president said communist parties wouldn't be
allowed to participate in general elections. Stanley Wooper's book 9 hours to Rama was
banned. The book Chundra Mohini was banned. Audre man Ramayana was banned.
Campbell's the heart of India was banned. Kosler the Lotus and the robot was banned. Import of
any newspaper that undermined friendly relations. No, I need to go on. I need to go on because
this rubbish fake narrative needs to be busted right here and right now.

00:12:23 - 00:13:17
Fister's Aisha was banned. Bertrren Russell's unarmed victory was banned. Robson's film 9
hours to Rama was banned. Sadu's Marine Somnat was banned. Robert Taylor's the dark urge
was banned. Selling lady shatal's lover was banned. The book What has religion done for
mankind was banned. Ratnawak's Bupat Singh was banned. Import of any obscene drawing or
painting was banned. Minal S's film Nilakar Niche was banned. Menan Rama retold was
banned. Tony Hagen's book Nepal was banned. The RSS organizer

00:12:50 - 00:13:44
was censored. Its publishers prosecuted. Film Gokur Shankar was banned. Go says testimony
was banned. Gowami's film Roomi was banned. Historian Dharal was jailed and criticized for Nu
for Indochina war. Releasing the film 1962 war film Bulajana was blocked. Pandit Rajendra
Prasad's speech was barred from distribution. Film Jarna was banned. Draconian press
objectionable banned was passed. Columnist Vive was fired. His column critical of NU
discontinued. HD editor Durad Das was fired. His column

00:13:17 - 00:14:13
critical of the NU family discontinued. Congress leaders demanding NU's resignation were
arrested and jailed. Ads to Times of India was discontinued for speaking against government
policy. Magazine Crossroads was banned. Play nigame communist was banned. Its actors
arrested. Hindi film songs were banned from being played in the air. Congress demanded a ban
on iconic film Parasaki. Film Nastik was banned. Wupert pop music was banned from AIR.
People's Theater Association was banned. Play Haraj

00:13:45 - 00:15:07
Master was banned. Film Ganga Jamna was blocked. Saratra Chhatrapati's play Mahesh was
banned. Tagor's play Gora was banned. Balat Swani's play jaduki kuri was banned. Tagor's play
bharatan was banned. Paradik film song was deleted. Two songs from fifth suogi were banned.
Harmonium was banned. This is Javal Lal Neu the paragon of freedom of speech and liberty. Is
there anything left to be said? If it is I pass it on to Sai. [Applause] This is the Shiram College,
right? Yeah. J Shiram.

00:14:39 - 00:15:52
Right. So first of all thanks to the organizers for putting together such a fantastic event and the
audience for turning up in such brilliant numbers. As usual I think the alleys have been
converted or the aisles have been converted into part shalas. Thank you so very much. Um you
know I was wondering I was just going through the email that was sent to us on the topic. The
topic was can western narratives and Indian narratives or western media and Indian media
coexist. If I were on the other side, I would

00:15:18 - 00:16:44
have stuck to the topic. This is a textbook instance of Abel Mujimar. You've opened the
Pandora's box by speaking about freedom of speech when instead the topic was slightly
different. Good. Can of worms has been opened. So let the floodgates open. Now we are being
told that free speech in this country is almost on the verge of extinction. So Anand rightly
pointed out the first amendment to the constitution. So I'll explain the backdrop to it. So Mr.
Nehu seriously was interested in pushing his

00:16:10 - 00:17:16
land reforms agenda. I am not on the question of whether it was right or wrong. I'm just saying
that he had a certain policy initiative which he wanted pushed. You know who was actually
raising the red flag to his initiative? the ones who raised the red flag always the communists.
Okay. So people like Romesh Taper started writing against it and there was active opposition to
everything that he was doing. Courts were overturning his judgments or rather his his initiatives
through judgments. So two consequences happen

00:16:44 - 00:17:52
simultaneously around that particular period which till date affect the constitution. The first is the
introduction of severe limitations on free speech. The second is the introduction of the ninth
schedule to the constitution which effectively protects all those land reform legislations from any
kind of constitutional challenge. Imagine an elected government in a democracy taking a policy
decision and ensuring that that policy decision is immune from judicial review through a
constitutional amendment for all time to

00:17:17 - 00:18:32
come. And we are being taught democracy by the scions and descendants of this legacy.
Second, today we are suddenly being told, "Oh, social media explosion is the reason for survival
of free speech in this country. Otherwise, you see free speech has been bought by mercantile
interests and so on and so forth." Who introduced section 66A to gag free speech on social
media? Section 66A of the information technology act was introduced by the UPA government
with the broadest of possible restrictions on free speech where even

00:17:56 - 00:18:57
any kind of offense or hurt that is caused to sentiments immediately attracts the application of
the particular section. This is what ultimately resulted in Shia Single versus Union of India. The
sad part or the unfortunate part or perhaps the cynical part of the reality is the BJP defended
that particular provision in court when the matter was being heard because by then the BJP had
taken over. So what does this tell you ultimately that the nature of power regardless of which
party is in power is to

00:18:27 - 00:19:30
appropriate as much space to it as possible and limit the scope for free speech. There is really
no one in this hamam I leave it at that who's capable of saying I'm clothed. Okay. So therefore
let's not take a moral high ground here. Let's be realistic about what is it that we want and what
is it that is good in the interest of the public. Let's speak of that. Now let's talk about what's
happening in the west so on and so forth. I think the binary division between western media

00:18:58 - 00:19:57
and Indian media no longer exists for a good reason because it's not a question of who is from
the west and who is from India. It's a question for who's batting for Indian interests. That is what
ultimately matters because there are several people several journalists in the west who are
willing to speak the truth about Bhat and who do not share the colonial cynicism of the rest of
their western compatriots. Similarly, there are several people from Bhat who are more than
happy to be lackeyis of

00:19:27 - 00:20:34
anti-Indian mouthpieces from the west. That's a fact. So therefore, I'm not interested in this
binary argument anymore. During COVID, there were several fantastic Twitter handles from the
west which were actually reporting on the kind of measures that a country such as Barat the
scale of its population was undertaking to provide resources to its people. while people within
were constantly pulling us down. Now here is the interesting part. Mr. Kulkarni rightly points out
and I would say significantly that holds good

00:20:01 - 00:20:57
that western media including Hollywood so to speak has managed to push the western agenda
as much as possible. It's unfortunate that we are aping everything wrong from the west as but
we are not doing it as far as this issue is concerned. And then when we say that there are
certain portions of the media, there are certain segments of the media who seem to be
comfortable constantly pulling India down, we are then accused of being anti-free speech.
Okay? So we are being told that free speech is

00:20:29 - 00:21:43
effectively under challenge because mercantile interests are holding them to ransom. Why don't
we speak of political parties owning channels? In the south, business interests and media
interests merge and they're controlled by parties. You want a standing example? The Sun group
owned by the DMK which has been a partner not just to the Congress but also to the BJP
because after all the commerce minister during Mr. Vajay's tenure who was leading India and
the Dhar negotiations with respect

00:21:06 - 00:22:16
to World Trade Organization was Murasi Maran from DMK neither party deemed it fit to crack
down on the holding of media interests by political interests or political organizations that has
never happened why just the DMK jala also owned JTV which continues to be run by the ADMK
I would say it's much better for a mercantile interest to own a let's say a media organization as
opposed to a political interest because there's a serious conflict of interest on both sides. That's
a discussion that we don't seem

00:21:40 - 00:22:44
to be having here now has become about only the Congress and the BJP. I would say at this
point members who are listening to this should actually say we are sick and tired of this
nonsense. We'd like to actually have a discussion which goes beyond the BJP and the
Congress and we'd like to talk [Music] Because until the cows come home, this battle will go on.
But nevertheless, given the fact the cow, of course, pun intended, given the fact that the
Congress has been in power for a longer period of

00:22:14 - 00:23:10
time, ask any student of constitutional law, almost every decision on free speech involves a
clampdown on free speech by Congress ruled governments either at the state or the center. So
at the very least the Congress must take a look at its own history before it starts pontificating to
the rest and you're certainly in no position to pontificate today when all the information is out in
the public domain through the social media people have access to judgments people have
access to decisions file

00:22:42 - 00:23:52
noting so on and so forth you're in no position to pontificate to aim 30 seconds yes so I would
only request you to ask yourself only one thing self-regulation in India is a non-existing word it's
a non-existing concept. There's not a single body that can be trusted to regulate itself. I say this
as much of the judiciary when it comes to its colligium system and I say this as much of the
media. Now on the point that Mr. Kulkani raised that the government is thinking of setting up a
center which can crack down on fake
00:23:16 - 00:24:15
news. The press guild does nothing. The press council of India does nothing. No action has
been taken against any organization or any portal or let's say individual journalist for their direct
role in let's say spreading or manufacturing fake news. What are we supposed to do? You can't
go to a court asking for directions against a private party in a ridition. So what do you do then?
The government has the task. You know why? Because if fake news starts on WhatsApp
particularly in the context of

00:23:46 - 00:24:40
riots or any kind of communal violence so to speak and and let's assume that the trigger is a lie
it falls upon the government to have an mechanism to actually trace that lie back and also
perhaps nip it at the bud. So if the government were to actually go against all kinds of news
that's a different issue. But to say that the government doesn't even have the right to go after
fake news when self-regulation as a concept is completely failed in this country. I'm sorry to say
what are we really batting

00:24:13 - 00:25:20
for? This is exactly what happens when you choose to go after every policy initiative merely
because it's the BJP at the helm or the Congress at the helm without asking what is right and
what is wrong. I can pander to the gallery here by reducing this to a television debate. But this is
SRCC. I think you're better. Right. And therefore and therefore I would urge you to put pressure
on debaters and panelists to stick to the issue at least in their own interest. Thank you panelists.
I'm sorry uh I've

00:24:49 - 00:25:48
been told there's a shortage of time. So I'm just going to leave you with one idea which is that uh
we've spoken about the two parties the governments the historical perspectives present day all
of that. Um we're looking at times of artificial intelligence right uh where technology can make
news gathering more efficient but it can also allow fake news to get more creative. Um I would
have liked uh people to respond to that but unfortunately we're out of time so um we'll have to
wrap it up here and

00:25:18 - 00:26:15
thank you for being a great audience. [Applause] Why? Why did we run out of time? Because
there was no equity in the use of time. Thank you. We started late. If you if you want a victim
card, I have one victim card. [Applause]