GROWTH

THROUGH
R&1SON

Digitized by tlie Internet Arcliive

in

2011

littp://www.arcliive.org/details/growtlitlirouglireaOOelli

GROWTH
THROUGH
REflSON
VERBATIM CASES IN
RATIONAL- EMOTIVE THERAPY

/IBMELUS

SCIENCE AND BEHAVIOR BOOKS

Palo Alto, California

Copyright 1971 by The Institute for Rational Living,

Inc.

Printed in

the United States of America. All rights reserved. This book or parts
thereof may not be reproduced in any form without permission of the
publisher.

Library of Congress Card

Number

77-153850

ISBN

0-83U-0029-3

Contents
1.

Introduction

2.

The Case of the Black and

Therapist:

3.

Silver Masochist

Ben N. Ard,

Jr.,

15

Ph.D.

Rational-Emotive Therapy with a Culturally Deprived

Teen-Ager

46

Therapist: H. Jon Geis, Ph.D.

4.

A Young

Male
Homosexual

Who

A Young Woman

Afraid of Becoming a Fixed

102

Therapist: Albert

5.

Is

Ellis,

Ph.D.

with Feelings of Depression

123

Therapist: Paul A. Hauck, Ph.D.

6.

Husband and Wife Who Have Not Had Intercourse

During Thirteen Years of Marriage

147

Therapist: John M. Gullo, M.A.

7.

Relapsed Client with Severe Phobic Reactions

Therapist: Maxie C. Maultsby,

8.

Twenty-Three-Year-Old

Girl,

References

Ellis,

M.D.

Guilty about Not Fol-

lowing Her Parents' Rules

Therapist: Albert

Jr.,

179

223
Ph.D.

287

Contributors

Ben N. Ard,

a psychologist in private practice in San

Francisco and also Professor of Counseling at San Francisco State
Jr.,

Ph.D.,

is

Ard has edited two

and Psychotherapy
Handbook of Marriage Counseling (with Constance C. Ard; Science and Behavior Books, 1969).
He has published articles in Rational Living, Sexology, Family Coordinator, Marriage Counseling Quarterly, and Personnel and GuidCollege. Dr.

books. Counseling

(Science and Behavior Books, 1966) and

ance Journal.

Albert

Ellis, Ph.D.,

is

Executive Director of the Institute for Ratio-

and Director of Clinical Services of the Institute for

Advanced Study in Rational Psychotherapy in New York City. He
nal Living

is

an associate editor of several

scientific journals,

has published

more than 350 articles, and has authored 30 books and monographs,
including Reason and Emotion in Psychotherapy (Lyle Stuart, 1962),
The Art and Science of Love (Lyle Stuart, 1969), Sex Without Guilt
(Lyle Stuart, 1970), The Encyclopedia of Sexual Behavior (with Albert
Abarbanel; Hawthorn Books, 1961, 1967), and A Guide to Rational

Living (with Robert A. Harper; Prentice-Hall, 1963).

H. Jon Geis, Ph.D., is a clinical psychologist in private practice in
and Director of Training at the Institute for Advanced
Study in Rational Psychotherapy where he supervises the professional staff and gives public lectures. Dr. Geis formerly taught on
the graduate faculties of New York University, Yeshiva University,
and Teachers College, Columbia University. He has written articles
for Dissertation Abstracts and Rational Living.

New York

Vll

via

CONTRIBUTORS

John M. Gullo, M.A., is a consulting clinical psychologist for the

Illinois Department of Mental Health. He is also engaged in the
private practice of individual and group psychotherapy and marriage, family, and pre-marital counseling. Mr. Gullo has participated
with Dr. Ellis in holding professional workshops and in conducting
marathon weekends of Rational Encounter. He is the author of
Murder and Assassination (with Albert Ellis; Lyle Stuart, 1971),
several articles in professional journals, and two tests in the training-teaching

field.

Paul A. Hauck, Ph.D.,

is

a clinical psychologist in private practice

Rock Island, Illinois. He was formerly chief psychologist, Peoria

Mental Health Center, and Director of the Western Mental Health
in

Center, Marshall, Minnesota. Dr.

professional papers and

was the

Hauck has published twenty-four

first

editor of Rational Living, the

journal for the Institute for Rational Living.

He

has written The

Rational Management of Children (Libra, 1967).

Maxie C. Maultsby, Jr., M.D., is Director of the Psychiatric Out-PaDepartment of the University of Kentucky. He was formerly

tient

Assistant Professor of Medicine at University Hospitals in Madison,

Wisconsin. Besides doing clinical research. Dr. Maultsby has conducted many workshops and seminars in rational-emotive therapy.
He has written articles for the American Journal of Psychiatry,
Psychological Reports, Rational Living, and Psychotherapy: Theory,

Research and Practice.

CHAPTER

Introduction
ALBERT

ELLIS, Ph.D.

Rational-emotive psychotherapy has many unique features that difit from most other forms of psychotherapy. One of these
in particular will be emphasized by the cases that are included in
this book: namely, that it is not only a relatively short-term procedure (taking from one to thirty sessions in most instances, where
the conventional forms of therapy take considerably longer), but
it usually fosters gains within gains. That is to say, when a rational-emotive therapist is working with a client on a major problemsuch as the typical symptom of feelings of severe inadequacy or
worthlessness there tends to occur (a) a significant diminution of
this problem before the symptom is completely eliminated and (b)
an amelioration of certain other of the client's emotional complaints,
even though some of them may have hardly been mentioned during
the therapy sessions.
This kind of treatment bonus, moreover, often occurs with startling rapidity. When I practiced psychoanalysis and psychoanalytic
psychotherapy some years ago, I warned my clients that before they
improved as a result of seeing me, they might well get worse. And
I was frequently right! Many of them ultimately got better
but
only after they had undergone considerable suffering concomitantly
with, and quite probably as a direct result of, treatment. For revealing to an individual some of his hidden traits and motivations may
finally do him some good, but in the short run it aggravates his

ferentiate

suffering.

This can happen in rational-emotive therapy (RET, for short), too;

but it usually doesn't. RET not only quickly reveals to the individual

many important

things of which he is, at best, only dimly aware;

almost immediately begins to undercut and disembowel the
conscious and unconscious irrational assumptions that make him and

but

it

ALBERT

ELLIS, PH.D.

keep him emotionally disturbed. This is particularly true of his unsubstantiable negative assumptions about himself, which create his
"feelings" of inadequacy, worthlessness, anxiety, guilt, and depression. From the very first therapeutic session, the therapist is showing
the client exactly what his self-defeating values and philosophies
are, how these make him anxious and self-hating, and precisely what
he can do to question and challenge them in order to minimize or
exterminate their effects.
In the distinct majority of instances, then, RET begins to work
promptly and to produce some beneficial results. This does not mean
that all rational-emotive clients, or even the majority of them, become significantly improved or ''cured" in a brief period of time.
Not so! Some of them make little or no advance for many weeks.
Others make progress but take a long time before they finally make
important inroads against their basic self-sabotaging philosophies
and thereby become better.

Nor
is

is

the rational-emotive therapist usually interested in

called a

"symptom cure" although the

pists like to think so

ad nauseam.

what he considers

On

what

so-called "depth" thera-

the contrary, he normally tries

most elegant cure imaginable: that

is, a radical restructuring of the client's value system and the semiautomatic internalization by him of a scientific, logico-empirical attitude toward himself and the world that will effectively prevent
him from ever becoming seriously disturbed again. Unless the client
is in some special, restricted category is, for example, very young
for

to be the

or old, or of quite limited intelligence the therapist vigorously en-

deavors to induce him to surrender some of his basic philosophic

nonsense, and not merely his annoying symptoms. If this can't be
accomplished, too bad; but almost always this is the rational-emotive
therapeutic goal.

That is why the incidental, and often amazingly quick, gains

achieved in RET are so startling: they are almost a by-product rather
than a direct aim of the therapy process. In my own case, for examI generally assume that my new client probably is capable of
fundamental personality change rather than only relatively slight
behavior modification. I also assume that although most individuals
have great difficulty in changing their fundamental views and behaviors, this particular client may be one of the relatively few who
is able to do so with some degree of ease and speed. If I am wrong,
then he and I have lost little or nothing. If I am right, then we
both are saved considerable time, and he gains a shortcut to release
from pain. So why not experiment and see?

ple,

INTRODUCTION

Experiment? Why, of course! One of the brightest aspects of psychotherapy, and the prime element in keeping it (at least for myself)
from becoming a blasted bore, is the fact that each client is in many
respects quite singular, different from the many others who have
gone before him; and therefore there is no damned way of knowing,
save clairvoyantly, how he is going to react to the same kinds of
methods that the therapist has used many times before or to different techniques that he improvises for this current encounter.
Even, therefore, when the therapy of choice is far from being eclectic
is based on a clear-cut theory and practice (as is RET), each
session is still highly experimental. Although I have realized this
to some degree for many years, I am grateful to Gerald C. Davison
and his associates (1970) at the State University of New York at
Stony Brook for recently emphasizing this point in a more formal

and

manner.

Anyway,
I

try

as

experiment with the new

many maneuvers

client

who

is

before me,

to try to achieve a consistent goal: to see

how

quickly I can get him to see what is really bothering him, to

understand exactly what he is doing to make this thing bothersome,
and to discover what he can do to stop bothering himself. If I can
get him to see these things, and then to act on them quickly, fine.
If not, too bad. But almost always, if he works at all at helping
himself along the lines I outline for him, he will improve to some
extent, usually, within a short period of time.
That is what most of the cases in this book demonstrate: that
rational-emotive psychotherapy tends not only to work, but to have
fairly immediate as well as long-range effects. Why it works this
well is, of course, open to various interpretations. Relationshiporiented therapists, such as Arbuckle (1967) and Patterson (1966,
1969), and psychoanalytically-oriented therapists, such as Greenwald
(1967), tend to "explain" RET results by hypothesizing that it is
not the rational-emotive therapist's didactic content and philosophic
analysis that really affect the client, but rather
his relating, or his transference connections
is

little

it

is

with the

his

warmth,

client.

This

far-fetched, since, as will be seen in the cases in this book,

he frequently has a minimum relationship and a maximum teaching

alliance with his client. Moreover, if the RET "relationship" works
so quickly, even when little or no effort is made to achieve it, how
is it that the client-centered, experiential, existential, and psychoanalytically-oriented relationships work so slowly, even when therapists who subscribe to these schools take such great pains to establish

them?

ALBERT

Other
it

critics of

really gets its

RET, such

ELLIS, PH.D.

as Pottash and Taylor (1967) claim that

good results because

it is

a kind of behavior therapy

that conditions the client to react better and to surrender his symp-

toms. This

is

partly true since the rational-emotive therapist does

efficient behavior, and he does make
homework assignments that help force the
differently. However, systematic desensitization,

reinforce the client's

more

liberal use of in vivo

client to act

operant conditioning, and other forms of behavior therapy generally

take a number of sessions to produce good therapeutic results (Wolpe
and Lazarus, 1966), whereas RET may help create significant behavioral change in as little as one or two sessions. Moreover, as some
of the less doctrinaire leaders in the field of behavior therapy have
been increasingly pointing out, cognitive processes are really explicitly or implicitly included in most effective behavior therapy cases,

and rational-emotive psychotherapy, in particular, is one of the best

means for supplementing traditional desensitizing or operant conditioning methods (Davison & Valins, 1969; Eysenck, 1964; Lazarus,
1971).

Are cognitive processes and didactic teaching the core of the rational-emotive technique? Yes and no. Actually, as its name implies,

RET

is

a truly comprehensive

method

of treatment, which includes

cognitive-explicatory, evocative-emotive, and behavioristic-active-

As noted in the previous paragraph, it is strongly

homework assignments, as well as to other active-

directive methods.

oriented toward

directive techniques, such as role-playing, assertion training, and

conditioning and counterconditioning procedures. It also makes use
of many dramatic-emotive exercises, particularly in the course of
group and marathon encounter therapy, including honest expression

of feeling, direct confrontation, risk-taking experiences, uninhibited

language, love experiences, and the use of unconditional positive

regard. Its unique essence, however, especially when it is employed
in individual psychotherapy and in marriage and family therapy,
is a Socratic-type dialogue through which the client is calmly, logically, forcefully taught that he'd better stop telling himself nonsense,
accept reality, desist from condemning himself and others, and actively persist at making himself as happy as he can be in a world
that

is

RET

far

from

ideal.

from the vast majority of other schools of psychotherapy in that it consciously strives to help the client achieve the
most elegant solution to the problem of human worth or self-acceptance. Theoretically, virtually all systems of therapy aim for the
client's self-acceptance; but actually they tend to fall down sadly.
also differs

INTRODUCTION

Thus, Carl Rogers (1961, 1971) has done a great service to psychology
by emphasizing the value of unconditional positive regard; and in
this respect, as Bone (1968) incisively points out, client-centered and
rational-emotive psychotherapy are oriented toward the same goals.
In actual practice, however, almost all Rogerian and existentialist
therapists seem to assume that their clients can only improve
through highly conditional positive r-egard: through the therapist's
relating warmly to the client and, by his existential encounter with
the client, showing him that he is a worthy person because the therapist accepts him and because, presumably, others will therefore accept him as well. Consequently, the "successfully" treated Rogerian
client normally gains "self-esteem" or "ego strength" by entering
therapy with the irrational idea, "I am no good unless other people
accept or love me," and leaving therapy with the slightly better
but still basically insane idea, "I am now worthwhile because my
therapist cares for me, and presumably others can care for me as
well." It is exceptionally difficult to see how this client has gained
any appreciable kind of unconditional positive self-regard.
Conditional self-acceptance is similarly achieved by the client in
most other types of therapy including experiential, basic encounter,
sensitivity training, reality, Gestalt, Synanon, and operant conditioning therapy. For

all

these schools go along with the individual's

it is not only preferable that others approve of him but that he absolutely needs this approval if he is
to accept himself. Essentially, therefore, these forms of therapy
"help" him by showing him better techniques of relating rather than
disabusing him of the idea that he has to relate well in order to

basic irrational belief that

consider himself a worthwhile

human

being.

These schools, as well as several other systems of psychotherapy

also do not forthrightly and unequivocally attack and uproot the
individual's other important disturbance-creating notion: that is, the
idea that he must achieve notably or perform well in life in order
to have confidence in himself. Thus, Adlerian therapy (Adler, 1927,
1929, 1931; Ansbacher and Ansbacher, 1956) shows the client that
he has to have considerable social interest if he is to be a worthy
member of the human race. Branden's biocentric-objectivist approach (1969) bases the individual's self-esteem on the conviction
that he is competent to deal with reality effectively and that he
is morally worthy. Behavior therapy often teaches the client that
he really can master certain situations at which he has a prior history
of failure and that therefore he can have confidence in himself.
(Bandura, 1969; Wolpe and Lazarus, 1966).

ALBERT

On

the other side of the fence,

RET now

seems

ELLIS, PH.D.

to be almost the

only kind of psychotherapy that is based on the assumption that

the individual can fully, unconditionally accept himself whether or

approved by others and whether or not he performs well

between the client's preference and
need to be popular and achieving; and that specifically teaches him
that he doesn't have to rate or evaluate his self or his being, even
though he'd better objectively perceive and measure his traits or
not he

is

in life; that clearly distinguishes

between the person's achievement-confidence and his approval-confidence, on the one hand, and
his self-acceptance, on the other; and it presents a radical solution
to his "ego" or "identity" problem by essentially eliminating his
"ego" (Ellis, 1971a, 1971b, in press c).
RET is also rigorously scientific meaning that it is based on and
consistently uses the principles of empirical validation and logical
analysis rather than the principles of magic, mysticism, arbitrary

his abilities. It sharply differentiates

definition, religiosity,

and

circular thinking. It

that whenever he upsets himself at point

shows the individual

(the emotional conse-

not (as he almost always thinks is the case) because

happening
of what is
to him at point A (the activating event).
Rather, it is because of his own irrational and unvalidatable suppositions at point B (his belief system). More precisely, when a person
feels terribly depressed at point C, it is not because he has been
quence),

it is

someone or has lost a job at point A, but because he

convincing himself, at point B, of both a rational and an irrational

rejected by
is

hypothesis.

His rational belief (rB) is usually of the order: "I don't like being
it has real disadvantages. I wish, instead, that I
were being accepted. But because I am being rejected, that is unfortunate, unbeneficial, and frustrating." If asked to sustain or verify
this rational hypothesis or belief, the individual can easily present
empirical, observation-backed data to prove that it is unfortunate
that he is being rejected. Thus, he can show that rejection leads
to (1) lack of love and approval, (2) loss of companionship, sex fulfillment, or job advancement; (3) knowledge by others that he has been
rejected and their consequently being influenced to reject him, too;
and (4) various other kinds of real inconveniences. He can also show
that if these inconvenient consequences of rejection occur (and it
is highly likely, though not necessary, that they will), it is inappropriate for him to feel delighted and joyous, while it is most appropriate for him to feel sorrowful, regretful, frustrated, and annoyed.
His feelings of sorrow and frustration are appropriate because (1)
rejected, because

INTRODUCTION
it is

he

hardly appropriate for him to feel unfrustrated and joyous when

truly rejected and inconvenienced, and (2) feelings of sorrow

is

and annoyance usually encourage him

tions that occur at point

he

to

work

at changing the condi-

is,

rejection), so that in the future

is more likely to be accepted.

The individual's irrational belief

(iB) is usually of the order: "I

(that

can't stand being rejected! It

is

awful, horrible, and catastrophic

me

not to be accepted! I should have been approved rather than

and the fact that I was not proves (a) that I am a worthless
individual and/or (b) that my rejector is a rotter and a bastard!"
This irrational belief (iB) is really a magical, empirically unverifiable hypothesis because there is no possible way of proving or disprovfor

rejected,

ing

(1) he cannot prove that he can't stand being rejected,

a tautological assumption and consists of circular thinkcannot stand being rejected because he thinks he cannot

Thus

it.

since this
ing.

He

stand
stand

he thinks he cannot stand

it;

it;

is

it

because he decides not to

and when he thinks and decides that he cannot stand being

rejected, he feels that he cannot stand

and catastrophic for him not

it.

(2) It is

awful, horrible,

to be accepted only because, once again,

awful, horrible, and catastrophic. The words "awful,"

and "catastrophic" have surplus bombastic meaning and
cannot truly be defined. They mean, first, that it is inconvenient
for him to be unaccepted (which he already proved and accounted

he thinks

it is

"horrible,"

for in the course of his rational belief [rB] about nonacceptance);

and they mean, second, that he should not, ought not, must not be
inconvenienced. But why should, ought, or must anything not exist?
Only because, by arbitrary fiat, he thinks and declares that it must
not exist! Only because he absolutistically, definitionally believes
"What I want to exist, ought exist!" Only because his wish is father
to his thought. Only because he grandiosely, Jehovahistically ordains:

"When

prefer to be accepted, I should be!" (3) He is a worthless

is rejected because he insanely decides or dictates

when he

person

is worthless under those circumstances, (a) As indicated a

few paragraphs back, he doesn't have to rate or measure his personhood, his entire being, his total self at all; and he could merely

that he

decide to fully accept rather than to crassly rate himself, (b) When
he dogmatically asserts that he is a worthless person because some
of his main traits or characteristics are rejected by another individ-

he

obviously illogically overgeneralizing. Just because someone

some of his aspects rejectable is hardly evidence that he,
totally, is of no value, (c) Even if his rejection by another indicates
ual,

is

else finds

that this other person finds

him completely

valueless, he

would

still

ALBERT

ELLIS, PH.D.

if he concluded, ''Because I am totally worthless to this

have to consider myself totally worthless to me." (4) If he
concludes that the person who rejects him is a rotter and a bastard,
he is making the same illogical overgeneralization about this individual as he makes when he puts himself, as a person, down when
he experiences rejection; for his rejector has numerous probably
hundreds of traits, many of which are desirable or efficient and
many of which are undesirable or inefficient. At most, therefore,
he can justifiably conclude that his rejector has some important traits

be wrong

other,

or characteristics that are rotten, but not that he, as a total

being,

is

human

rotten.

For many reasons, such as those

who
when he

listed in the previous

paragraph,

the individual

feels (at point C) anxious, depressed,

or hostile

is

rejected by another (at point A)

these upsetting feelings by his

is

ashamed,
creating

own

highly irrational beliefs at point

B. In addition to sane beliefs, he has a number of interlocking insane
beliefs, all of which are really tautological and definitional, and are

not truly related to reality. But as long as he devoutly holds on

he will strongly tend (1) to feel depressed

and/or angry; (2) to be obsessed with his own circular thinking; (3)
to mull his thoughts around, sometimes for hours or days on end,
in his own inappropriate emotional juices; (4) usually to behave in
such a manner that he enhances his chances for continued rejection;
(5) to conclude after a while that he is hopelessly upsettable; and
(6) to bring on various other unfortunate symptoms, disturbances,
and psychosomatic reactions.
In the course of rational-emotive psychotherapy, many emotive,
experiential, and behavioristic methods of psychotherapy are employedbut they are not used in a hit-and-miss eclectic manner.
to these irrational beliefs,

They are consciously utilized in order, in many vigorous and clear-cut

ways, to interrupt the individual's irrational belief system and to
teach him how to keep attacking it himself, not merely for the
duration of therapy but for the rest of his life. Most uniquely, as
will be shown in the verbatim therapy transcripts included in this
book, cognitive and didactic methods of therapeutic intervention are

employed. Although these are only a part of the RET armamentarium, they are in some ways its most distinctive and effective
part.

After the therapist has shown the client the A-B-C's of how he
has been and still is disturbing himself, he then goes on to point
disputing the irrational beliefs that the client devoutly holds
at point B. Thus, in the case we are examining, where the individual

INTRODUCTION
is

horrified because he

how

may be or actually is rejected, he is shown

"Why can't I stand being rejected? Where
is awful, horrible, and catastrophic for me

to dispute as follows:

is the evidence that it

not to be accepted? Why should I have been approved rather than
rejected? How does my rejection prove that I am a worthless individual or that my rejector is a rotter and a bastard?" At the same

is shown how to dispute his irrational beliefs, the client

shown why his rational beliefs are legitimate, how he can learn
from them, and what he can do about using them to effectively
change some of the noxious conditions like rejection that keep

time that he
is

occurring at point A.
If the client actively starts to dispute his irrational beliefs

to substantiate his rational ones, he normally arrives at point

effect of his disputing. First,

and

E the

he achieves a cognitive effect (cE),

or a revised philosophy about A. Thus, he will tend to conclude:

"There is no reason why I can't stand being rejected, though I may

well never like it. It is clearly not awful, horrible and catastrophic,
although it may be highly inconvenient, for me not to be accepted.
The only reason I absolutely should have been approved is because
I foolishly think I should; it is better, but hardly necessary, for me
to be approved. My rejection does not in the least prove that I am
a worthless individual, but merely indicates that I may well have
some ineffective traits and that some people may wrongly consider
me worthless for having them. My rejector may be acting unfairly
or stupidly in rejecting me, but he is entitled to his disagreeable
behavior and is not a total rotter for displaying it."
Finally, if the client persists in this

new

ophy, he will tend to develop, according to

cognitive effect or philos-

RET

theory and practice,

new

behavioral effect (bE), which consists of a radically changed

emotion or symptom. Thus, instead of feeling depressed, anxious,
or hostile, as he originally did at point C, he will now tend to feel
a

only disappointed, sad, and frustrated. He may still be highly emotionalsince it is appropriate that he feel emotional when an important rejection occurs in his life but he will not be truly disturbed,
upset, or destroyed.
Through the cognitive aspect of RET, then (as well as through
its experiential, emotive, and behavioristic aspects), the client is
specifically taught how to be discriminatingly emotional or to control his own emotional destiny and truly to run his own life. This
kind of cognitive-emotional discrimination (which has often been
inaccurately labeled "emotional insight") is, of course, produced in
other types of therapy, too. But it is my hypothesis that it is learned

ALBERT

10

ELLIS, PH.D.

much more readily and thoroughly by active teaching, as is usually

done in RET, than by less cognitively-oriented kinds of therapeutic
I would hypothesize that so far no one has invented any method of helping troubled individuals to make some
of the finer distinctions and utilize some of the more elegant solutions to their problems than the RET method of very specifically
and concretely teaching them rational sensitivity and emotional dis-

encounters. In fact,

crimination.

RET can even be more briefly (though not entirely adequately)

explained by noting that, according to its formulations, virtually
all human disturbance is self-created by the human individual because he pig-headedly and devoutly believes in two nonsensical words
and their equivalents: ''It's terrible!" The person who is easily and
consistently upsettable more specifically believes that (1) ''It's terrible when I fail to do some important task well or when significant
others do not approve of me; and

when
you

am

a pretty worthless person

these kinds of failures or rejections occur!"

fail to

treat

me

fairly or to give

desire you to give me;

and you are a

me

(2) ''It's

awful when

the kind of favors

strongly

rotten individual, a louse,

when

you deal with me in that fashion!" (3) "It's horrible when the world
is rough and things around me are quite difl^cult; and / can't stand
it

when life is that hard!"

As long as he maintains these magical,

unscientific, definitional

not to be frequently emotionally disturbed. If he wants to be minimally disturbbeliefs, it is virtually impossible for the individual

able and maximally sane, he'd better substitute for

all

his absolutis-

two other words which he does not parrot or give

lip-service to but which he incisively thinks through and accepts
namely, "Too bad!" or 'Tough shit!" Or, more precisely, in terms
of the three basic "terrors," lawfulnesses," and "horrors" listed in
the previous paragraph: (1) "Too bad that I fail to do some important
tic It's terrible's

tasks well or that significant others do not always approve of me!

But
and

that's the

way

fairly or to give

But

am and

partially unlovable." (2)

that's the

when

me

way

will in all probability

"Tough

shit

always

when you

be: fallible

fail to treat

me

strongly desire from you!

you are: often unfair and ungiving." (3) "Tough
the kind of favors

rough and things around me are quite difI may never like it, that's the way it is,
and I can definitely stand it if I can't change it for the better."
Will this rather simplistic, utterly realistic, and fully grown-up
philosophy of life really eliminate all serious emotional disturbances
to which humans always seem to have been and still very much
luck

ficult!

the world

is

But even though

INTRODUCTION

11

would somewhat conservatively guess

that it would minimize at least 90 percent of them. I could, of course,
be wrong about this. But so far, in the clinic and in the research
laboratory, I seem to have been surprisingly right.
As for the clinic, conclusive results are by no means in yet and
probably will not be until a large-scale study comparing the effectiveness of rational-emotive therapy with various other major forms
of psychotherapy is completed. Unfortunately, although I would be
are heir? Possibly not; but

delighted to conduct such a study, it is not at the moment feasible,

because it would require at least a million dollars to execute, and

no research fund or agency has been ready to grant me and my

Advanced Study in Rational Psychotherapy even a small part of such funds to carry on this kind of
an experiment.
Meanwhile, however, a number of smaller studies have been done
that indicate that RET is quite effective when used with disturbed
individuals, and particularly when it is used with clients who have
had a considerable amount of psychoanalytic or client-centered therapy and made little or no improvement until their therapist switched
to RET techniques. Thus, clinical papers showing the effectiveness
of rational-emotive methods with various types of clients have been
published by many therapists, including Ard (1966, 1967a, 1967b,
1968, 1969); Bedford (1969), Breen (1970), Callahan (1967), Diamond
(1967a, 1967b), Geis (1970), Glicken (1967), Grossack (1965), Gullo
associates at the Institute for

Harper (1960a, 1960b, 1967), Hartman (1967),

Hudson (1967), Konietzko
(1968), Maultsby (1968, 1969d), and Wagner (1963, 1966).
Experimental studies of RET, showing that it is clinically effective
when used with control groups or procedures, have also been done
by a good many researchers, including Bard (1965), Burkhead (1970),
Conner (1970), DiLoreto (1968), Ellis (1957), Gustav (1968), Hartman
(1968), Karst and Trexler (1970), Krippner (1964), Lafferty (1962),
Maes and Heimann (1970), Maultsby (1969a, 1969b, 1969c), O'Connell
(1970), Raskin (1965, 1966), Shapiro, Neufield, and Post (1962), Shapiro and Ravenette (1959), Sharma (1970), Taft (1965), and Zingle
(1966a, 1966b, 1968),

Hauck

(1966, 1967a, 1967b, 1968, 1969),

(1965).

Many independent

most of whom were not even parhypotheses and procedures, have published
findings that confirm some of the major assumptions and principles
of rational-emotive therapy. This is particularly true of the basic
RET theory that emotions are largely caused, not by the stimuli
or activating events that occur to people at point A, but by the
ticularly

aware of

researchers,

RET

12

ALBERT

ELLIS, PH.D.

cognitive evaluations, mediating processes, or belief systems that

they engage in at point B. There is nov^ a huge mass of experimental

evidence to support this hypothesis, including studies by Beck (1967),

Beck and Hurvich (1959), Beck and Stein (1967), Becker (1960),
Becker, Spielberger, and Parker (1963), Brainerd (1970), Breznitz
(1967), Carlson, Travers, and Schwab (1969), Cassidy, Flanagan, and
(1957), Davison (1967), Davison and Valins (1969), Davitz
Deane (1966), Folkins (1970), Frank (1968), Friedman, Cowitz,
Cohen, and Granick (1963), Fritz and Marks (1954), Garfield et al.

Spellman
(1969),

and Gatchel (1970), Geis (1966), Glass, Singer,

and Friedman (1969), Gliedman et al. (1958), Gordon (1967), Grossack,
Armstrong, and Lussiev (1966), Jordan and Kempler (1970), Kamiya
(1968), Kilty (1968, 1969, 1970), Lange, Sproufe, and Hastings (1967),
Lazarus (1966), Loeb, Beck, Diggory, and Tuthill (1967), Marcia,
Rubin, and Efran (1969), McConaghy (1967), Miller (1969), Mowrer
(1938), Nisbett and Shachter (1966), Nomikos et al. (1968), Pastore
(1950, 1952), Paul (1966), Salzinger and Pisoni (1960), Schacter and
Singer (1962), Steffy, Meichenbaum and Best (1970), Sullivan (1969),
Valins (1966, 1967, 1970), Valins and Ray (1967), Wenger, Averill,
and Smith (1968), and White, Fichtenbaum, and Dollard (1969).
A great many other studies have also been done that more specifically show that when individuals are given concrete suggestions
regarding emotional and behavioral changes, either with or without
hypnosis, they significantly modify their behavior. Included among
scores of studies of this kind are those by Barber (1966), Barber
and Calverley (1965, 1966), Hampson, Rosenthal, and Frank (1954),
Jellinek (1946), Levitt, Den Breeijen, and Persky (1960), Levitt,
Persky, and Brady (1964), Meath (1954), Roper (1967), Rosenthal and
Frank (1956), Sparks (1962), Wolf (1950), and Wolf and Pinsky (1954).
Still another group of experiments have been performed that
present impressive evidence that when human beings have emotional
disturbances, they have specific irrational ideas, especially those
which I have been hypothesizing since I gave my first talk on rational-emotive therapy in 1956. These include studies by Appleton
(1969), Argabrite and Nidorf (1968), Beck (1967), Conklin (1965), Dua
(1970), Jones (1968), Kemp (1961), Lidz et al. (1958), Meehl (1966),
Overall and Gorham (1961), Payne and Hirst (1957), Rimm and Litvak
(1969), Rokeach (1964), Spielberger, Parker, and Becker (1963), Tosi
and Carlson (1970), and Velten (1968).
Further evidence favoring some of the basic principles and practices of RET has been presented in several studies that show that
the kind of live, active-directive homework assignments that are
(1967), Geer, Davison,

INTRODUCTION

13

an integral part of rational-emotive procedures are not only quite

effective in aiding personality change but are usually more effective
than more passive kinds of desensitization, such as those frequently
employed by Wolpe (1958) and his followers. The efficacy of in vivo
homework procedures has been experimentally validated by a good
many researchers, including Cooke (1966), Davison (1965), Garfield
et al. (1967), Jones (1924), Litvak (196^a, 1969b), Rimm and Medeiros
(1970), Ritter (1968), and Zajonc (1968).
I could present a great deal more evidence that cognitive-behavior
therapy, in general, and rational-emotive therapy, in particular, not
only works but is probably more effective than any other major
system of therapy thus far devised. Let me, however, conclude this
introduction by making the important point that although RET procedures were originally invented to help individuals who had already
become aflflicted with serious emotional problems, they are so allied
to the field of education that they have enormous implications for
emotional prophylaxis as well as treatment. A number of clinicians
and other professionals have now shown how rational-emotive psychology can be applied to "normal" or little disturbed individuals,
especially to young children, in order to help prevent them from
ever becoming as seriously upsettable as they presumably would
otherwise become in the course of modern living. Articles and books
vouching for the effectiveness of what I call emotional education
using RET principles have been published by a number of writers,
including Austin (1964), Ellis (1969d, in press c, in press d), Ellis,
Wolfe, and Moseley (1966), Glicken (1966, 1968), Hauck (1967a), Lafferty, Dennerll, and Rettich (1964), McGrory (1967), PoUaczek (1967),

Rand (1970), Wagner (1966), and Wolfe et al. (1970).

As a result of the good results so far obtained with using

ratio-

nal-emotive psychology in educational settings, the Institute for

Advanced Study in Rational Psychotherapy in New York City has
established the Living School, a private school for nondisturbed children, where a concerted effort is being made to teach all the pupils,
in the course of their regular academic program, some of the main
principles of rational living. By giving this kind of emotional education to the youngsters and their parents, it is hoped that methods
will be worked out by which any public or private school in the world
can eventually employ rational-emotive psychology to enhance the
personal growth and enjoyment, as well as the academic performance, of its pupils.

To return

to this casebook, the cases

fairly typical of

RET

herewith presented are

all

procedures and are included to show what

14

ALBERT

ELLIS, PH.D.

the rational-emotive therapist does to help his clients think more

clearly and sanely about themselves, about others, and about the

universe, and to indicate hov^ they can thereby help themselves

"emotionally." These cases by no means display all the many techniques that are frequently employed in RET; but they do highlight
some of its main or most unique aspects. They also show what can
be done by an effective rational-emotive practitioner to help some
people in a relatively brief period of time, in spite of the fact that
they have a number of serious emotional difficulties.

CHAPTER

The Case of the Black

and Silver Masochist
BEN

N.

ARD,

JR., Ph.D.

The excerpts from the following case involve a twenty-four-year-old,

single, handicapped woman who was referred to Dr. Ard by her
counselor at the rehabilitation center where she was staying at the
time of her referral. (She had been at the center only a short while
since her recent release from a state mental hospital, where she
had been for about seven years. There she had been diagnosed as
having a schizophrenic reaction. Her counselor rightly believed that
she needed more psychotherapy and so referred her to the therapist.)
Because she was not in a position to afford extended treatment
and because the therapist was familiar with rational-emotive psychotherapy, an attempt was made to see what could be accomplished
within a few sessions.
The case had many unusual aspects to it and perhaps goes against
what many professionals have been taught in their professional
training. The therapeutic approach is direct, active, hard-hitting,
even relentless. The client's religious assumptions, which have been
unquestioned for many years and which seem to be at the base
of her problems, are attacked in a straightforward manner. Attacking a person's religious beliefs is a form of heresy in many circles
of the helping professions. Yet, as this case illustrates, just such

steps are sometimes desirable,

if the client is to be helped on the

road to better mental health.
The client was seen for a fifty-minute hour at intervals of once
a week, sometimes every two weeks, from spring through fall of

1969.

Here, then,

had a hard

is

the case of a very unusual

human being who

has

and adopted rather unusual methods of adaptation

to her harsh treatment by several people. This case is not an ideal
one; many probable mistakes were made in these therapy sessions.
life

15

BEN

16

N.

ARD,

JR., PH.D.

But the young woman does make some progress. Perhaps this record
shows that some help can be given to a client who many
would feel was practically hopeless.
This young woman had previously been labeled the "Black and
Silver Masochist," since she had adopted the practice of paying men
to beat her with black and silver belts to assuage her guilt feelings,
which derived from her unquestioned religious assumptions. Prior
to the present treatment, she had seen a number of therapists and
had many shock treatments, none of which she felt had been very
at least

helpful.

FIRST SESSION
You
I

T3

spent seven years in

Did you

some other help?

said over the phone that you had had

feel

you got some help there?

got help in that

little bit. I

thought

it

State Hospital.

realized

needed

it.

had

was kinda normal going around cutting up with

razor blades.

You

cut yourself with razor blades?

Yeah,

I've cut

myself (reveals many,

from the wrists up past the elbow).

turned to razor blades because

many
It's

scars on both arms,

just lately that I've

couldn't get

what

really

want.
X7

What do you

want?
and silver."
When you say "black and silver,"
means?
I

QIO
Til
(^12

A
A
I

term

it

list
it

of guys
for free.

me

and

silver belt

Yeah.

me what

that

who would use it, but the thing is they

I gave them the money that they want.

see

if I

understand

this:

you want men to use a black

on you?

black leather belt with a silver buckle. Just before

did this last job with the razor blade,

me
I

tell

kind of a rotten deal.

it's

Let

you

belt?

had a

But

14.

will

belt.

don't do
'13.

really

as ''black

a black belt. It cost

have several of them.

me

went out and bought

five dollars. It's

a real neat one.

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

Umm.
lived with this guy who did it for me for
anything he wanted me to. He had a lot
around. I had a couple of bummers on it. I let
of me, nude.
Why do you want these men to beat you
I

17

two weeks.

did

of grass floating

him take pictures

with these black

belts?

Q18

don't know;

How
(320

it's

fun.

do you mean,

It

makes me

It

sounds

fun"?

"It's

feel better for the things I've done.

like pretty

rough punishment for yourself.

that

Is

fair?
C22:

Yeah,

^^23.

You think you

C24:

told

it's fair. I

my

counselor what a tramp

was.

are a tramp?

Yeah.
do you think you are a tramp?

'J'25.

Why

C26:

Various things.

think

it

started with

she used to beat us up, you see. She

know. The more

to justify her.

He

my

my
was

mother. Because
sick herself,

father said against her, the more

you
had

didn't do anything about her for five years.

anyone is to blame, he is the one. Because he didn't do

anything about it for five years. After all the damage has
been done, big deal! So he got a divorce, wow!
May I interject something right here? You just touched upon
something that might be pretty basic to what you have been
doing to yourself in your life. You talked about blaming. You
mentioned your father and your mother, and you have previously been talking about yourself. One of the things that
I hear in what you have been saying so far is that you have
been blaming yourself, pretty badly.
If

'p27.

gone on for a few minutes.

on what he considers the client's main problem
to be: blaming herself. He does this largely on theoretical grounds,
since RET theory hypothesizes that whenever people are seriously
disturbed, they are almost invariably blaming themselves, blaming
others, or blaming the world. And by "blaming" the rational-emotive
therapist means not only (a) insisting that certain people or things
are responsible for or cause unfortunate results but also (6) demanding that they should undoubtedly be damned as individuals (that
Although

Dr.

this first session has only

Ard zeroes

in

BEN

18

is,

N.

ARD,

JR., PH.D.

rated as being bad people) and severely punished for their mis-

deeds. Although in this particular instance, since the client has such
as unusual history, the therapist gets sidetracked for awhile before
he returns to the essence of her disturbance, her blaming tendencies,
he quite properly raises this important issue very early in the therapy
sessions.

C^^:

don't blame myself without good reason.

don't do anything

without good reason.

Q32

But is the reason you have been giving yourself such a bad
time entirely justified?
Yeah, why not?
You said you were beaten as a child by your mother?
Yeah, that's how I became handicapped. And my brother had
seven fractures of the

skull.

He's mentally retarded.

Your mother injured you?

(2)34

Yeah.

How?
had a brain hemorrhage.

C36

'p37

From

Q38

Yeah. From being thrown against the wall.

the beating?

But you are continuing to want to hurt yourself today.

Is

that right?
C^o:

Well, yeah.

T^^:

am interested in what you

may make the present more
interested in us getting to
as fast as

C^2:

Yeah; ooh,

we
I

are saying about your past;

understandable. But

am

work on the present and the

it

also

future,

can.

agree. It isn't

all

my

mother.

have done things

know were wrong.

that

'^43

Who

have you killed?

^44

Oh this

^^45

You drove him

Q46

Yeah.

kill him; he committed suicide.

you mean?
had an affair with him when I was fourteen. He was

guy.

didn't

to

it,

I wanted him to do was to get him to stop

was having these dreams. And at that time I thought
they were a sign from God that he had told. Because I was
hung up on religion. Because I was raised a Seventh-Day Adventist. I just wanted him to stop. When he found out I told,

sixty-three. All

because

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

he committed suicide and

when you

you." So
far
'p47

Q4S

Q5()

note saying

"Who have you

"May God

forgive

killed?" you're not

off.

But you didn't kill him.

But I feel I made him commit suicide.
You feel you should be punished forever?
It's been ten years

You
C52

say,

left a

19

are

trying to punish yourself, aren't you?

still

Yeah, but the problem that goes along with

been turned into

somewhat pleasurable.

it is

that

it

has

So that makes

it

harder to give up.

T'^^:

Do you

want

really

up these things that give you

to give

pleasure?
C-''^:

did even last year. Last year I was seeing a

and one of the reasons I quit there were two
main reasons. One was that I felt I wasn't getting anywhere,
and secondly I wasn't all that ready to give it up. I don't
dig hypocrites. And I don't like to be one, and I felt I was

More than

psychiatrist,

being hypocritical.

By continuing to see the

want to work on getting

psychiatrist

when you

didn't really

better?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

'^57

Are you ready

work on getting better now?

to

Yeah.
It's

Q60

going to be hard work.

Ooh Yeah,

know because

Damned hard
I

work.

have tried to do

it

myself.

It isn't easy, is it?

C62

No.
in

used to carry a razor blade around with

my

leave

key
it,

case, just for security reasons.

but

when

the time came, oh man,

'p63

You were going

Q64

Yeah, sure.

'p65

Well, one of the things you and

Why

to use

it

standings, the rules

to each other here.

the time

could take

failed.

it

or

to hurt yourself with, right?

I might find out, if we are

what are going to be the underof the game, the commitment we have
I may operate a little differently from

is

some of the other people you have seen.

Yeah. I don't want to go around and around
atrist.

all

not?

going to work together,

^^:

me

I'm fed up.

like

with a psychi-

BEN

20

ARD,

N.

JR., PH.D.

you think you would want to work with me.

Let me tell you a little bit about the sorts of things we might
do. One of the things we might do is talk about what you
are doing to yourself. And in so far as it's helpful, I am all
for encouraging you. But in so far as it is self-defeating for

^67.

Well,

C:

C^:

What's "self-defeating"?
Anything harmful you do to yourself such as cutting yourself
with razors
Or drinking nail polish remover?

T^^:

you,

T^^:

let's

am

don't

see

if

going to work against that.

want

now because

to

go into

that

is

specifics such as razor blades right

not the problem, but rather what you

are thinking inside your head which causes you to turn to

razor blades or whatever you might turn

offer

you a

looking

at.

little

proposition and see

if

you want to work with me, and

If

am

going to
you think it's worth
to. I

am

willing

would look upon you somewhat as a

partner. That is, you and me as partners. Specifically, the
healthy part of you working together with me, working on
the problems you have been having. That means that the
healthy part of you has to agree to work with me. Does that
make sense to you? That is, there are some things within
you that are working to your detriment, if I hear you right.
to

C^2:

work with you,

Um-hm.

Quite properly, Dr. Ard sees that he can easily get lost in the
fascinating details of the client's story. But the purpose of RET
is not to track down the gory details of her history and thereby

show her how

to ''understand" herself. Rather, the main purpose

demonstrate to her what thoughts she is thinking inside her
head that cause her to have a long and checkered history of cutting
herself, drinking nail polish, driving an older man to suicide, being
beaten with belts, and so on. So in T^^ and several subsequent responses, the therapist tries to get away from history-taking and
to structure the therapeutic relationship with the client as a collabois

to

rative problem-solving kind of relation.

T'-^:

But there

is

also a healthy part of you.

The

fact that you

are in here right now, talking about possibly doing something

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

21

me that you may be ready

some people might say to do something

differently in the future, says to

or fixin' to start, as

about

it.

Yeah.
'^75.

That's the sign of the healthy

You and me

you what I want

work with.

to

against that unhealthy part that says you have

you have to get somebody to beat you, you

have to do all these irrational things.
Fm in agreement. It's just that I might not be able to give
enough right away.
to hurt yourself,

'76.

'77.

understand that you have been through quite a bit of hell,

from what you have told me so far. And I am assuming that
getting you to function in ways that are more satisfying for
you is going to take some effort, maybe a hell of a lot of
effort hard work on your part. I am not expecting miracles.
But if you are really ready to do some hard work, to adopt
some different practices, different from those you have
adopted in the past, and you are really ready to commit yourself to this, and you and I work together as a team, then
we can put some distance between you and your problem.
I want you and I working together. Does this make sense
I

to you?
'78.

Yeah. One of the things

thing about punishment

want

is all

to accomplish

is well,

this

tangled up and connected with

sex.
^^79

Um-hm.

Well, would you like to do

some reading?

Yes.

You may

like to start

with

Ellis

&

Harper's Guide

to

Rational

Living, then.
'82.

Okay.

Dr. Ard's recommendation that the client do some reading as a

supplement to her sessions with him is another typical method of
RET. Because the theory states that people can be taught to understand and change their thinking, RET employs many different kinds
of teaching techniques, including bibliotherapy.

At the Consultation

Center of the Institute for Advanced Study in Rational Psychotherapy in New York City, we give each new client a package of
reprints that briefly state

some of the main

principles of

RET.

We

BEN

22

N.

ARD,

JR., PH.D.

recommend strongly

that each client purchase a paperback copy

Rational Living (Ellis & Harper, 1970) and that he
ultimately read several of the other main RET texts, such as How
to Live with a Neurotic (Ellis, 1969a), Reason and Emotion in Psychotherapy (Ellis, 1962), How to Prevent Your Child from Becoming a
Neurotic Adult (Ellis, Wolfe, and Moseley, 1966), Sex Without Guilt
(Ellis, 1970), and The Art and Science of Love (Ellis, 1969b). Although
controlled studies of the effectiveness of this type of bibliotherapy
have not yet been done, clinical reports indicate that it both hastens
and intensifies the therapeutic process in many instances.
also

of

T^^:

Guide

to

might be helpful, then, if we could get some orientation

how you feel about sex and guilt, and start looking at
some of your assumptions start working on them.

It

as to

C^^:

me

It

doesn't surprise

of

what happened right

that
off

feel guilty

about sex, because

the bat with this

guy who commit-

ted suicide.
T^^:

But sex doesn't always have

bad feelings, does it?

to be associated with guilt

and

realize this.

C^^:

T^^:

Sex can be enjoyable and a good part of life, integrated in

a satisfying way in your life and not involving beatings or
punishment or bad feelings; is that possible?

QSS

Yes, but

it

kind of has

to.

You assume.
It's
^^91

my

been

experience.

can understand that.

Is it possible,

though, that you could

think of sex in a different context?

(^92

Yeah,

^^93

You

(2)94

Yes, but

if I

find

somebody that

really dig.

could change your ideas about sex, then.

I

just don't

know how

to

go about

it.

At this point Dr. Ard interrupted the session somewhat to tell

the client about another of his clients, an alcoholic woman, who also
had severe sexual problems and who was very guilty about having
relations with men. In spite of her severe handicaps and problems,
he was able to show her how to combat her guilt and how to become
so liberal sexually that she was able to go out by herself to bars
and other public places, to pick up male companions, and to have
sex relations with them if she cared to do so. She ultimately found

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

23

a steady lover and later married him. The client showed great interand was apparently affected by it, in that she began

est in this story

to think that she, too, could be helped to

and self-punishment.
This method of using

stories, fables,

clients, personal incidents

material of this sort

from the

life

overcome her sexual guilt

events

RET

frequently used in

is

in the lives of

other

of the therapist, and other

to

make

certain

points clearer and to indicate to clients that they, too, can overcome
their handicaps just as others have been helped to do so.

T^-"':

This means changing your assumptions about yourself, pun-

ishment and sex, and

men the

interrelationship of

all

these

factors.
C^^:

think

can do

it

but

it

might take some time and you might

get fed up with me.

'^97

Has that happened with other therapists?

The people at the hospital got pissed off at me.

Why

so?

Cioo

They

felt

'pioi

What do you

C102,

that

if I

had the willpower

could do

it.

think about that?

don't think that just locking a person up in a place

is

going

them change their ideas. The reason shock treatment

didn't work for me was that I considered it a punishment.
I had about six or seven series of them (with about eighteen
to twenty-seven in a series). I swallowed some razor blades,
and they had to operate on me to get them out. They had
to do that three times in four months. They put me in a
to help

maximum
'pios

Q104
'pios

security ward, but

did

it

again just to prove to

it.

Yeah, rather painfully so.

Well, now, I hear you saying that you are giving yourself
an awfully bad time and doing a variety of things that are

and have been doing them for

years
Since I was twelve. I only started it because I couldn't get
to my mother. I was getting tired of my father saying I was
rotten like my mother, and no good. Until this year I was
not going to have any kids because I just knew I would beat
really self-defeating for you,

several

'106.

them that they couldn't stop me from doing

You proved it, didn't you?

BEN

24

N.

ARD,

JR., PH.D.

them up like my mother did. I kept having dreams that I

was beating a child. And I would get sexual pleasure out of
it. That really bugged me, you know? Because it just proved
to me that I was just like my mother. I mean to me it proved
that I was just like my mother.
You think it proved you were no damned good, huh?
C108

Well, yeah.

QUO

When

'pill

So there are a lot of good things in you, too.

But it scares me to get angry because I just think I could
kill somebody or something. I use to dream I was getting
beaten by some guy with a black and silver belt until I got

But

C112

doesn't, does

it

want

some guy

to do

it,

really?

Can you

can scrape up a

to, I

it,

then

didn't

dream about

used to get sexual pleasure out of that dream,

T^^^:

Are you

telling

me do

get to the day, someday,

now?

see that,

lot of patience.

it

anymore.

too.

hear this right, that you want to

when you won't need

razor blades,

or black and silver belts, beatings, etc.?

C^^'*:

Yeah;
I

if

don't

nothing

want

kind of guys

to

else, it's

will

in society is

to get rejected a
T^^"^:

C^^^:

damned

nuisance, you know.

hang around with that kind

who

blades are concerned,

body

of a crowd (the

do that sort of thing). As far as razor

it's

a bloody mess to clean up. Not every-

going to understand, and you are going

lot.

And maybe be put back in the hospital again?

Yeah. And I don't believe in starting out on something
you really want to do something about

The remainder of this session

made

And

is

unless

it.

taken up with arrangements being

for the client to be transported regularly to the sessions and

them financially. The

makes something of an RET error. For

to arrange for

therapist, in response T^^\

his pointing out to the client

that ''there are a lot of good things in you, too" implies that she

cannot prove that she is no damned good because of these good

things. This is technically correct, since she obviously cannot be no
good if she has some good in her. In RET, however, we try to show
individuals that they are not worthless or of no value to themselves
even if they have no ''good" or "worthwhile" traits. Because the
goal of their lives would better be not rating themselves at all as

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

25

being either "worthwhile" or "worthless," but merely enjoying their

existences. The therapist, more elegantly, therefore, could have
pointed out to the client that she does have some good, efficient,
or strong traits but that she'd better not rate or judge her self by
these traits. She is neither good nor bad, even though her individual
characteristics may be measurable.
Dr. Ard also chooses not to deal, at this point, with the client's
statement that she gets so angry that she thinks she could kill somebody or something. Perhaps he does so because he knows that the
session is near its close. Normally, however, a rational-emotive therapist would quickly pick up on a client's feelings of rage and show
her how she creates these feelings herself by irrationally demanding
or dictating that others behave the way she wants them to behave,
and that she would benefit herself by disputing these irrational

demands.
Although

this first session has presented to the client little specific

evidence of her irrational ideas and how to combat them, it has
induced a highly disturbed individual to open up about herself, shown
her that she is needlessly self-condemning, and got her to agree

with the therapist

attempt to solve her problem.

to collaborate

in

an empirical and logic-based

SECOND SESSION
During the second session, the therapist continues to work with
the client along lines similar to those he employed during the first
session and particularly tries to get her to change some of her negative,

punitive ideas about herself. Here

is

an excerpt from this

ses-

sion:

T^:

I'm saying that you have some stupid reasons for doing
of the things that you've done in your

life.

Now my

many

job, as

you to see that what you've been telling

yourself as reasons for doing them are stupid reasons, and
to help you see for yourself that there are better ways of
running your life. Does that make sense to you?
I

hear

it, is

to help

C2:

Yes.

T^:

That means that you're going to have to give up some of

your previous ways of thinking, because they're self-defeating
for you. Now, at the beginning you may not see that. Because

BEN

26

N.

ARD,

as you say, for example, the belt bit, the "black

JR., PH.D.

and

silver,"

does bring some pleasure. But in so far as you get beat up

C^:

good thing. The same thing about the razor

you punish yourself, and you want punishmakes
some sense. But it's really self-defeating
ment, that
for you. And I want you to see that, not because I say it,
but because it's true whether I'm alive or dead that if you
go through life the way you have been in the past, you're
only hurting yourself. And we've got to get you to question
some of your assumptions and change them. Now that's easy
for me to say; it's hard to get you to do.
But you see, all the evidence I have tells me that I deserve

T'^:

That's what we're

by

it,

that's not a

blade. In so far as

it.

gonna have

to question!

only have to accept as evidence what

nalnot

just because

we're

is logical, clear,

gonna
ratio-

you have a feeling.

because I've contributed to someone's suicide?

C^:

Yes, but isn't

T^:

That's not justification for

it

And

all

the misery you've given yourself.

No, no!
T^:

Yes, but they put people in prison for

C^:

Yes, but not for getting other people to commit suicide. Let's
look at that one minute. If a person

people in his

life.

commits

suicide,

many

could say that they are involved with him.

life

means that by definition he

chooses that. Now if you pulled a gun on him and shot him,
that's murder. But murder is not the same as suicide. If he
takes a gun and shoots himself because you said something
to him, you are still not to blame for his death. Even though
you said, "You know, I think you're a crumb, and you ought
But

if I

understand suicide,

to kill yourself!"
still

it

and he then goes and shoots himself, you're

not to blame.

In RET, the therapist teaches long-range instead of short-range

hedonism: that even though the client enjoys, in the short-run, punishing herself, in the long run she is acting foolishly. He also teaches
that feelings do not constitute evidence for beliefs or facts. The
client feels that she deserves punishment for her past misdeeds, but
this feeling hardly proves (a) that it is a fact she has done badly
or (b) that she should or must punish herself for her "bad" act.

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

27

The rational-emotive therapist also tries to help the client see

someone to shoot himself does not actually cause him
to commit suicide. He still chooses to heed the so-called suicide-impelling statement. Moreover, even if the client were truly responsible
that telling

for another's suicide or significantly contributed to

would not be
son

for this

blame meaning, condemnable

wrong deed.
to

it,

that client

or rotten as a per-

makes some mistakes, from the standT'', where he says:

we're
gonna
have
question!
And
we're gonna only
what
to
"That's
evidence
is
clear,
what
logical,
rational not just
have to accept as
because you have Si feeling" For his "gonna have to question" and
"gonna only have to accept as evidence" are imperative, absolute
Technically, the therapist

point of rational-emotive philosophy, in response

statements that themselves could help create anxiety in the client.

For if she has to question or has to accept as evidence what is logical,
and she actually does not do what she has to, she will almost certainly
condemn herself for her horrible errors. Dr. Ard could have more
accurately pointed out to her that 'Ht would be better if you questioned your assumption" and 'Ht would be much more desirable if
you accept as evidence what is logical, clear, rational." Then, if she
does badly, she will tend merely to feel sorry rather than self-condemning. I have made this same error of using "have to," "should,"
"got to," and so on, with clients and in my early writings (including
A Guide to Rational Living). But these days I am more careful and
rarely goof in this respect!

THIRD SESSION
During the third

session, the therapist continues to

show the

client

that her self-punishing tendencies stem from her religious and other

judgmental ideas and that she can change these ideas and thereby
stop punishing herself, sexually and otherwise. A significant excerpt
from this third session follows:

C^:

So I'm beginning to think that

fathers] could be so

if

they [the early Christian

wrong then You're

right,

have been

questioning some of these, you know, beliefs.

T^:

So you don't have to blame yourself and get into all this punishment kick just because of some of the religious teachings
you've been taught in the past.

BEN

28

N.

ARD,

JR., PH.D.

C"^:

Well, so far I've been working on trying to convince myself

T^:

that maybe everything

You mean in regard to

C'':

Yeah.

And

if I

can do that,

free to do other things.

a God. But

is

me

with

Um-hm.

is

As

not true.

then you know, then

far as religion,

he's the kind of a

if

so thoroughly exists

hell

T^:

believe

religion?

God

and presented

can feel

do believe there

that they've convinced

to

me, then then the

it!

sounds to

It

me

like you've

made some progress

in

this regard!
I

hope

so!

Because

I'll

be a

lot freer if

can.

Um-hm.
It's still

Ti:

with me. But I'm working on

it!

Good!

When the rational-emotive therapist encounters a client whose

dysfunctional behavior clearly seems to be related to her dogmatic
may try to get her to modify her beliefs and
be somewhat religious, or to change her beliefs radically and
to surrender her religion. If, for example, she devoutly believes that
her religion demands that she kill others who are irreligious, he
religious beliefs, he
still

may

try to get her to

become

differently religious or nonreligious.

In this case, the client seems to be maintaining a basic,

somewhat

God, but to be giving up the damning aspects of

the particular God in whom she used to believe. This may well be
a satisfactory solution to her problem of self-punishment.
Later in the session. Dr. Ard discusses the client's relations with

vague belief

in

the latest boyfriend.

Can you do

it

[have sex relations] with Jack without being

beaten?

never done

I've
it

to

it

with Jack.

don't think Jack would give

me, either.

'pia

Give what to you now?

He'd give me sex.

'pif)

He'd give you sex?

C16

He
me

I think he he would! Well, if he's going to take

Los Angeles for a week, I mean it's kinda obvious

would!
to

that he would. Because he wouldn't

be

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

29

Think you could have sex with Jack without being beaten?
I hope I can. I hope that by the time I get around to it I I
think I can picture I can picture him I can tell, you know
you can tell how gentle a guy's going to be by just, say, the
way he kisses or the way he holds your hand or something.
'pi9.

Um-hm.
And Jack

is

very, very gentle. He's just kind of a groove.

Really!
T21.

So you might be able to have sex with him and enjoy it, and
have orgasm with him sometime, without ever having to resort
to black and silver belt beatings?

C22:

'p23.

Isn't it better to picture that

C24:

kinda think

so.

Because

can picture

it

in

my

mind.

And

than to picture being beaten

by black and silver belts?

Yeah, man. It's a groove!
Well, if you continue to think that you've got to pay for some
sin that you assume you've committed, that you assume you
should be beaten for, then you'll resort to ''black and silver"
again.

guess

C26:

^^27.

And

'28.

so!

you don't want to be beaten again, the way to avoid

it is to question your assumptions that you have committed
these sins, which you should be punished for.
Well, I Okay, I've been questioning mostly beliefs that
anything I've been told has been true. And I've pretty well

come

if

to the conclusion that

maybe

it

hasn't.

And

I've also

been thinking about what you were saying about people not
being sinners but merely doing wrong acts.
^^29

Um-hm.
Doing wrong acts. And that makes sense. You know
Um-hm. So you can goof from time to time, but you

don't

C32:

have to blame yourself for your sins.

Yeah, but I've goofed plenty! Hah!
But you don't deserve the kind of punishment you've gotten

C34

Well, I've been accustomed to

for yourself.

C36

That right?
it!

Though

that

realize

didn't have to go out

mean I

and

get

it,

from the day

was born.

BEN

30

T^^":

N.

ARD,

JR., PH.D.

Just because your mother beat you up, though, does that

mean

that you have to be beaten the rest of your life?

T-^^:

Um-hm. Um-hm. Well, I don't know.

You said, for example, that your family taught you some
gious things, which you're now beginning to question.

C^^:

Yeah.

T^^:

It is possible that they also did some other things to you which
you now could begin to question?

C^2:

Oh, sure!

C"^^:

reli-

client that she may well be able to

self-defeating
sexual
pattern if she changes her selfher
change
Even
assumptions.
though
she may have strongly learned
damning
from her family to defame herself, she could question their beliefs
about her, just as she is now beginning to question the religious
beliefs they taught her. In RET, the therapist takes almost every
opportunity to show the client that her disturbed behavior is beliefcaused and that she has the ability to change her beliefs.

Dr.

Ard keeps showing the

TENTH SESSION
The intervening sessions between the third and the

last (tenth)

session, the therapist used various techniques that are

somewhat

unique to rational therapy namely, confrontation, confutation, deindoctrination, reeducation, and homework assignments. Some examples of these may be seen in the excerpts from the first, second,
third, and tenth sessions.
The basic cause of this young woman's problems seems to reside
in her unquestioned philosophic and religious assumptions, which
she had heretofore never examined critically. The therapist works
directly and actively at getting her to challenge and question her
basic assumptions and to substitute less self-defeating ideas to enable her to live a more satisfying, more rational life.

friend read

it

out,

T'^:

few.

C'^:

Yeah, yeah. Like where

C^:

me the books of Matthew and Mark,

and there are some contradictions there.

In Acts
T^:

He

it

said he

it

to check

said Judas gave back the silver.

went and bought some land with

couldn't do both, could he?

it.

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

No,

31

guess not. I've almost decided that

all

Christianity

is

a form of mass hypnotism.

That's quite a bit different from what you have believed for
a long time, isn't

Yeah.

I've

it?

almost decided that there

If there really

was no

hell,

is

no

hell.

then you wouldn't have to worry

about going there, would you?

No.
'pio.

It

might be worth your while

wouldn't

to check that out real good,

it?

Yeah. All the churches have a different concept of

they

concept
'12.

And

is

And

right.

that shows you that they can't

Your

hell.

claim that they come up with scripture to prove their

all

logic is good: they can't

of fact, they

may

all

all

all

be right, doesn't

be right.

And

it?

as a matter

be wrong.

No.
'pi4

'pi6

There may be no hell at all. Is that possible?

Yeah, that's possible.
In which case your worry about going to hell would be unnecessary, wouldn't it?

Yeah,
'pis.

And

if

all

wouldn't

Yeah.

there were none.

that punishment jazz would have to go by the boards,

it?

If I

got to believe that there was no

wouldn't be any fear of

T20.

And you

hell,

then there

hell.

wouldn't have to punish yourself anymore, or hire

those guys to punish you with those black and silver belts

'p22.

anymore, would you?

No. I went through a period of a couple of days when I felt
almost free from hell, and I didn't desire to be punished.
Well! Congratulations! That has been a long, hard road getting
there, hasn't it?

G23;

Yeah.

'p24

You

C25

No.

'p26

That would be a great sense of relief to you to know that

you don't really need it anymore; you don't have to have beatings, you don't have to punish yourself.

don't really need

it,

do you?

BEN

32

C^^:

Yeah. True.

T'-^^i

And you

can

live

a good

life

N.

ARD,

without worrying about whether

the streets are paved with gold or burning with

ever that hereafter

is

JR., PH.D.

fire,

or what-

supposed to have those presuppositions

that the Christians ask that you believe on faith alone.

C^^:

Yeah. How's come,

that

God gave

if

us a

we

are supposed to believe on faith alone,

mind that would ask questions? You know,

he gives you this mind so that you can explore things and
then

on
'30.

is all

pushed out of shape when you can't accept them

faith.

You

mind

are using your

to think with

and any idea about

God would

object to your using

religion that says that such a

'31.

your mind that you do have,

is

Why

he didn't intend for you to use

did he give

it

to

you

if

a pretty sad idea, isn't

it?

it?
'32.

C^^:

T^^:

Maybe he didn't give you anything; maybe the whole story

is made up. Did you ever think about the story of Genesis,
where he is supposed to have said don't eat of that tree in
the Garden of Eden, and when he came and saw that they
had eaten, he said ''Where are you, Adam?" Isn't God supposed
to be omnipotent? Doesn't he know where everybody is? How
come he is asking where Adam is?
Because he wants to make him suffer by making him come
out and face him.
Yes. As a matter of fact, that God of the Old Testament urged
people to go out and kill all the men, women, and children
in certain villages.

C^^:

Yeah, right.

T^^:

Is

C^^:

No.

T^^:

And

that the kind of

yet that

is

God you want

the

to believe in?

same God who

is

writing

down

in his

book every thought or fantasy you have, you say, according

to what you have been taught. Why not say that that is a
vicious idea, and I don't believe in such stories?
C^^:

And
is

how's come the very

first

thing every religion attacks

sex?

T4:

There you

C^^:

T"^^:

You

am

are.

afraid
tell

will fail at sex.

yourself

all

sorts of garbage, don't you? If

you

tell

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

33

yourself you are going to be a failure in a sex relationship,

what better way

is

there to insure that you will be a "failure"?

There is no better way, is there? If you doubt your ability

if you say, "Oh, I'm going to do something
to function
wrong," "I'm going to make the wrong move," or "I'm not
going to do the thing right" then you pretty well insure that
that is, indeed, what you are going to do, by worrying about
it. Or, "He won't like this about me." Whereas, if you said,
"I'm going to do the best I can; I'm going to try to be rational
and sensible about this," then that would probably be a health-

ier attitude,
C^3:
T^'*:

wouldn't

it?

would be.
If you have to ask yourself, "Would God like
like this act, or that movement?" that would

Yeah,

it

this?

Would he

really foul

you

up, wouldn't it?

C^^:

Yeah.

T^^:

But

if you are willing to look at the consequences of your

from the point of view of what effect it is going to have
on you, and forget about whether God is writing it down in

act

his

book or looking over your shoulder, that latter idea

is

vicious idea, isn't it?

G*^:

Dr.

Yeah.

Ard does not

hesitate, in the

and question some of the

RET

method, to directly dispute

client's basic religious ideologies.

in T^2, he continues to attack the

Thus,

whole idea that the God of the

all-powerful; and in T'*^, he points

Old Testament really exists and is

out that it is a vicious, self-defeating notion to believe that God
is spying on people and writing down, for future retribution, their
errors. From his efforts in this respect during previous sessions,
the client is already seriously questioning her self-punitive, religiously oriented beliefs; after she brings up the subject, he pursues
it further with her and strongly tries to induce her to challenge
her previously held dogmas.
The rational-emotive therapist is firmly disputatious and attacking in these important respects because (a) he believes that the client
often can benefit from having straighter thinking pointed out to
her; (6) he wants to show her, by precise examples, that her irrational
ideas do cause and influence her emotional reactions, and that if
she changes the former she will also significantly change the latter;

BEN

34

N.

ARD,

JR., PH.D.

and (c) he keeps teaching her a specific empirico-logical method of

challenging any of her present or subsequent inconsistent, self-sabotaging philosophies, so that she will ultimately be able to use this
method herself and not require his or any other therapist's help.
Because of his attacking position, the

RET

of trying to convince the client of his

therapist

own

is

often accused

ideas and therefore of

being authoritarian. Actually, as consistently shown in this case,

he attempts to help the client see how her ideas do not hold water
when empirically and logically analyzed and how, if she sticks with
them, she will continue to harm herself. He continually asks her
to think about her own ideologies, to check them herself, to figure
out how invalid they are in their own right and not because he says
that they are. If she merely accepts his word that they are mistaken
and harmful, she may then suggestively feel better; but he would
not agree that she actually was better, for she would still be unthinking, highly suggestible, and poorly perceiving. She would also still
be overly dependent on him or on others.
After helping the client challenge her religious ideas. Dr. Ard does
not hesitate to bring up, once again, her sexual philosophies. He
does not necessarily wait, as most psychoanalytic or client-centered
therapists would do, for her spontaneously to come back to this issue.
In the interest of saving her time and trouble, and getting to the
source of her major irrational ideas efficiently, he again raises the
question of her sexual notions and tries to show her how they are
integrally connected with her misleading religious suppositions.

T48.

What do you

think about punishing yourself to have some

sex? Is that a question

we

can look at now? Have

got this

what you have done, you think

have sex or an orgasm after you have

right? In the past, implicit in

that

right to

it is all

been beaten.

makes
make it

C^^:

Yeah. Well,

T-^":

How

C''^:

T-^'-^:

In advance, so to speak.

C-^3:

Yeah, right.

T''^:

So you pay for this "bad deed: sex" by being punished before-

does

it

it

it all

all

right.

right?

guess by paying for the wrong you are going to do.

hand.
C-^-^:

Right.

T''^:

Like a

little

kid saying, in effect,

am

going to play over

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

the fence where

am

not supposed

to, so

35

spank

me

first

so

can go enjoy myself, right?

Yeah.

And
to

yet, we are saying that if you decide it is really all right

go and play over the fence, then you don't have to be pun-

ished.

Right.
'J'60.

Is

that applicable to your case, right

now? To say that you

don't have to punish yourself with black and silver belts in

order to have enjoyable sex experiences?

I

'p62.

don't know.

said in this letter you left with me last time that when
you are unhappy, you go to some God and talk to him and
feel better; then you praise him for making you feel better,
after his making you unhappy to begin with. Isn't that the
same kind of thinking you have been doing on this sex bit

You

you are assuming that you should

be punished, because sex is bad, and therefore you punish
yourself first so that you can have the sex. How about questioning the assumption made at the beginning, that you have

and the beatings? That

is,

to punish yourself because sex is bad? If sex is not bad, then

you don't have to punish yourself for having it, do you?
'63.

But the Bible speaks of fornication, adultery, and

and

this

that.
'J'64

thought we were going to try and question that.

Oh, yeah, well yeah, okay.

You

said in this letter that there

the idea of going to a

you

feel better,

God and

when he

is

something wrong with

is

talking to him, and he

the guy

who made you

makes

feel

bad

bad"; therefore anyone

who

to begin with. Is that right?

Yeah.
'p68.

You

are saying,

indulges in

it

punish myself

"God says sex

is

should be punished. Then you say, okay,

first,

then

can have some sex

(it

I'll

will balance

the books).

Yeah.
'pro.

But maybe you ought

question: that sex

is

to question

bad and God

what you assume without

is

against

it.

Maybe you

BEN

36

don't even have to worry about that.

and normal, and you don't have

C^^:

N.

Maybe sex

ARD,
is

JR., PH.D.

just natural

to worry.

Yeah. In the churches they even think that masturbation

is

bad.

T^:

Do you think

C^^:

it is

bad?

was taught it was bad. God gave us sexual emotions and

feelings, and then if you do something about it, it is bad.
That doesn't make sense because he gave them to you to begin
with.

T''^:

Right. That

is like

giving you a mind and then saying "Don't

eat of the tree of knowledge," isn't

C^^:

Yeah.

T^^:

He
in

it?

did that too, supposedly, according to the Bible.

both cases

we

And maybe

shouldn't believe either of those stories.

How

about that?
C^^:

Yeah. You know Paul, in the Bible?

T^^:

Um-hm.

C^^:

Well,

T^^:

He

C^^:

Like

T^^:

Yes, and yet he has probably influenced more Christians than

think he was against a lot of things anyway.

sure was, wasn't he?

think he despised

perhaps any other

many

man

He was

a very sick man.

women.
in the Bible.

Christians to believe that

women

He

influenced a great

are kind of bad, didn't

he?
C83:

Yes.

T^^:

And

we

base so

much

and that puts

women

in a second-class citizen-

yet, in our culture,

Christianity,

of our thinking on

ship, all because of Paul. That's pretty sick, isn't it?

C^^:

Yes.

T^^:

And

C^^:

I think that bolt of Hghtning that hit him on the way

Damascus must have done something to him.
And so we should not believe what a man like that says;

T^^:

if

Paul was kind of

off his

that a fair conclusion? That

our

women

then

who has such

C89:

Yeah, right.

T^":

We

we

rocker

is, if

we

ask

how

to

is

should

we

treat

man

like

Paul

certainly shouldn't ask a

a low opinion of them.

ought to at least treat them as equals, as worthwhile

beings, and not beat them like gongs or drums. And

human

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

37

yet you have a sort of philosophy that you should be beaten

before you can have sex, that you should be punished. That
is

a sort of twisted, sick idea that

Yeah,

T^2;

And you

C^3:

Oh, yeah.

T^^:

Maybe we can dispense with

guess

so.

are believing

and yet you just

T^^:

told

it

me

when

man

like

Paul believed

you think he was kind of

Paul's beliefs about

it,

sick.

women and

punishment and sex and marriage. And you decide what kind
of philosophy of life you want to have on the basis of what
works out best for you, what the consequences are for you.
Paul was the author of that famous statement, "It is better
to marry than to burn." That's a pretty sick way to look at
marriage,

C9:

could trace back to Paul,

we?

couldn't
C^^:

we

isn't it?

Yeah.

Going ruthlessly on with

his

attempt to help the client dispute

her self -punishing religious philosophy, the therapist does not hesitate to point out, in quite a heretical manner, that St. Paul was
''a very sick man." He quotes chapter and verse to back this hypothesis; and he shows how the antisexual Christian philosophy, which
the client has clung to for many years, directly stems, in all probability, from Paul's disturbed attitudes toward human sexuality. He
takes the opportunity again, as is common in RET, to indicate that
the client's goal would better be to acquire a philosophy of life connected with what works out best for her. Whereas much that goes
on in psychotherapy is quite Establishment-centered, in that the
therapist is helping the client adjust to the kind of society in which
she accidentally was reared and to give up a good amount of her
individuality in order to be accepted in that society, RET tends to
be more truly client-centered, in that the therapist tries to help
the client discover what she really wants to do, whether or not she
receives considerable social approval for her acts, and to help her
undefeatingly achieve her goals. The rational-emotive therapist fully
realizes that, because she normally chooses to live in society, the
client would better be socially as well as individually interested and
should try to achieve individuality-groupness, or what Hans S. Falck
(1969) describes as the "I-G effect." But because the client is usually
too socially conforming and too little individually oriented, he tends
to stress the latter rather than the former.

BEN

38

C"^'':

Somewhere he

N.

ARD,

JR., PH.D.

you masturbate, you

with a reprobate mind. I thought, well, gee
masturbate, now what in the hell does ''reprobate" mean? So
I went and looked it up. 'Cause if Fm going to have a reprobate

would be

[St.

Paul] said that

if

left

mind, at least

want

to

know what kind

it is.

T^s;

What

C^^:

It

rpioo.

^nd

Cioi;

Yeah.

T102.

gut you are not depraved or a reprobate or all bad like that,
because we can question the assumption that started the whole

C103.

Yeah.

T^^'*:

did you find out?

means
so

and depraved, condemned.

once again we have that vicious circle, haven't we?
corrupt, hopelessly bad

thing.

you some "homework" assignments: do

some writing like you did in this letter, that is, some thinking
about why you feel guilty, why you think you ought to punish
yourself; and then begin to examine and question your assumptions that lead you to feel guilty and think you need

would

like to give

you would write some of those things out,

might help both of us get real clear about it. You
would be clear in your own mind, having worked it out on
paper, so to speak; would that help?
to be punished. If
I

think

it

^106.

Um-hm.
Would you

C^o^:

Yeah.

'pios.

You

Ci5:

like to

do that for next time?

somewhat

you wrote to your friend,

but I am interested in your thinking it through for yourself.
What follows from following your philosophy, which is the
did

it

in this letter

basic Christian philosophy of life?

Cio^:

Um-hm.

T^i^:

That you should be punished for being a bad girl; that you
ought to be punished for having sex; and as I recall, you have
even said that you ought to be punished for even having fan-

C^^^:

Oh, yeah, because let's

T^^^:

Jesus was supposed to have said, "The thought

Cii^:

Yeah, right.

T^^^:

That

tasies.

see

the deed."

is

another vicious idea,

isn't it?

is

as bad as

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

C^^'':

Yeah,

is

it

39

kind of a vicious idea, because there

wrong with thinking,

is

nothing

guess, but he said there was.

Ard gets around to one of the main aspects of RET: assigning

homework task to the cHent. In this instance, he asks
her to work out on paper some of her assumptions about guilt and
Dr.

a specific

self-punishment, and then to question these assumptions. Often, the

rational-emotive therapist gives activity or motoric assignments as

Thus, he may have this client deliberately engage in ''forbidden" or "guilt-provoking" sex behavior, to show her what her specific
beliefs are when she does so and to demonstrate that, by taking
such risks, she does not have to make herself feel terribly guilty.
Or he may have her deliberately refrain from all sex activity, to
show her the logical consequences of her antisexual philosophy.
The specific homework assignment that he gives (or has the client
give herself or asks her therapy group to give her) is partly designed
to change her motoric patterns of behavior: to get her to do something, for example, that she thinks she "can't" do, and to help her
become habituated to doing it easily and enjoyably. But it is largely
designed to help change her thinking: to show her, in one way or
well.

another, that risk-taking

is

not catastrophic, that she has specific

ideas motivating her disturbed behavior, that she can change these
ideas,

T^^^^:

QUI.

and so

He

on.

said so; does that

make

it

so?

T^^^:

"Whatsoever a man thinketh in his heart, that shall he do,"

or something like that.
So you can't even think about robbing a bank. Or passing
a bakery shop, you can't even think about having a chocolate
cake you see in the window. You are a sinner, hm? That is

Cii^:

Well-

a pretty sad

T^^^:

Even

if

way

of thinking, isn't

it?

you walk on down the street [and think of stealing

I don't see that you are such a terri-

but] don't steal anything.

ble

human

being.

seems

would be a compliment to the bakery.

C^'"^^:

Actually,

'pi22.

Why, certainly. Did you ever think about a married man walking down the street, and he sees a pretty girl going down

it

the street;

if

like it

the thought occurs to him, "There's a pretty

girl," isn't that natural

and normal and healthy,

really?

BEN

40

N.

ARD,

JR., PH.D.

Ci2"^:

Well, yeah.

T^2^:

Despite the fact that Jesus said he has committed adultery

in his heart.

damned

say that's just too

Jesus felt that way, but

am

sorry

mentally not very healthy to

is

it

bad.

think that every time you have a thought you should be blamed

and punished for

it,

even

a natural, normal, healthy

if it is

thought
C^^'':

T^26.

Hey! Well, how come

If

it doesn't work the other way, then?

you think something good, you have already done it?

jt

doesn't

work that way

either, does it?

Do

get credit in

the good book for having thought about giving a million to

some charity but never

C'':

No.

'pi28

Right. That shows you

Q129

Mmmm.

'piso

He

actually doing it?

how

docking you for

is

all

foolish

it is,

doesn't

it,

really?

the bad thoughts but not giving

you any credit for the good. You can't win

in that system,

can you?
Q131.

^Q

Ti^2.

One other reason for getting rid of that system one good
reason for dumping the whole system. Does that make sense

C133:

Yeah.

guess not.

to you?
*

^^134.

jf

yoy

phy,

(jj(j

am

some reading and thinking about your own philososure you could come up with a better philosophy

than the Christian philosophy, couldn't you?

C135:

136.

Well, yeah.

We

how many angels can dance on a

not much way of resolving that question

could talk forever on

pinhead, and there

is

since

we

know

that Christians have debated those kinds of questions

don't

know what

size angels there are.

But do you

endlessly?
(-137

Really?

'piss

Yes.

^139

But
Oh, wow!

don't take w.y

the answer!

lot of

good

word for
it is

it.

Check

it out.

going to do you

if

you find out

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

T^^":

41

use that as an illustration of some of the absurd things

religious people get into

when they

that are unresolvable. So that

is

are trying to resolve issues

why

am

saying to you:

you don't have to resolve these issues just dump the whole
load.
C^^i:

Oooh.

T^^*-^:

You

many
C^^^:

Dr.
(a)

angels can dance on a pinhead because

question to begin

less

Yeah;

show^s

several

how

and absurd,

desirable to think

a meaning-

it,

anyway.

methods that are commonly employed

in

RET:

the antisexual Christian philosophy, which he

deliberately takes to extremes,

tical,

it is

w^ith.

don't see the importance of

Ard uses

He

how

don't have to spend any time trying to find out

(b)

He

and

is

utterly self-contradictor}% imprac-

points out that

act the

way

it is

actually natural

and

the antisexual philosophy says

unnatural and undesirable to act. (c) He prods the client into

bringing up an excellent logical point that she has thought out herself: namely, that if mere thoughts or fantasies are punishable, they
are also logically rewardable; but that actually the Christian philosophy does not acknowledge their rewardability. (d) He indicates that
the philosophy that the client sw^ears by is one with which she can't
possibly win. (e) He encourages the client to rethink her ideological
position and to come up with a better, less defeating set of values.
(/) He explicitly tells the client, once again, ''But don't take my word
for it. Check it out/' (g) He notes how metaphysical and definitional
the client's whole philosophy is: that it asks foolish questions and
thereby gets foolish answers, (h) He encourages the client to stand
apart from her own value system, to weigh it more objectively, and
perhaps dump the system entirely.
it is

T^"^^:

am

going to offer you the idea that the same thing is true
whether it is a sin mortal, venial, or otherwise if you
masturbate, or whether you fornicate or not, or whether God

as to

cares about your fantasies (positive or negative). Let's put

all

that stuff in the garbage can, and let the garbage

aw^ay and you not w^orry about

man

anymore; then you

could go on to live a happy, healthy, normal life. And you
w^ouldn't hurt anybody intentionally, I'm sure, would you?
take

C^^-^:

No.

it

it

BEN

42

T^^^:

C^^":

N.

ARD,

JR., PH.D.

you anymore. And

you don't have to cut yourself with razors anymore.
No. I hope so. Another thing I do that I think would go if
you know how some kids carry
I could straighten all this out

You

don't have to hire

anybody

to hurt

a blanket, their security blanket? Well,

T^^^:

C^^^:
rpiso.

carry razor blades

around with me, everywhere I go.

Let's see if I understand that. You carry these razor blades
around with you so you can punish yourself by cutting yourself
anytime you want to?
Yeah, right.

we are saying that if you can get rid of this neurotic

need to punish yourself, then you don't have to carry razor

j^Yid

blades.
C^-^i:

Yeah, yeah.

'pi52.

When

you get an idea in the future that you want to punish

what can you do instead of cutting yourself? Can

yourself,

you think of some things you could do? What alternatives

can you think of? Say, next week you felt like you ought to

punish yourself, and you happen to have a razor in your bag,

what could you think instead of what you used to think that
would prevent you from cutting yourself again? What could

C^-^^:

'pi54.

you think that would help you throw that razor blade in the
garbage?
That I don't need to suffer anymore, maybe.
Yeah. You don't need to suffer anymore. And no maybe
period. You don't need to suffer anymore, period.

The therapist tries to show the client what she can do in the future
when she is "overwhelmed" by the idea that she should cut herself:
namely, that she doesn't need to suffer anymore. He could have,
more specifically, shown her the A-B-C's of RET:
At point A, the activating event occurs when she makes some
error or performs worse than she would like to perform. At point
C, the emotional consequence is that she feels guilty and is impelled
to cut and punish herself. Instead, however, of thinking that A must
lead to C, she could stop and ask herself, "What am I telling myself,
at point B,

my

belief system, to

make me

feel self-punishing at point

C?"

Her answer would then normally be: "First, I am telling myself

'How unfortunate for me to have made that

a rational belief (rB):

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

error;

wish

hadn't

orously stuck to

it,

of sorrow, regret,
I

am

made

it.'

43

But that would only

lead, if

rig-

to a rational consequence: appropriate feelings

and annoyance at

my own

foolish behavior. Since

actually getting a very irrational consequence (feelings of guilt

and the urge to cut myself

must be

myself an irrational
belief (iB), such as 'How awful for me to have made that error. I
should not have made it! What a louse I am for doing what I should
"
not have done. I must condemn and punish myself!'
The client could then be shown by the therapist exactly how to
dispute, at point D, her irrational belief, by challenging herself as
follows: "Why is it awful for me to have made that error? Where
is the evidence that I should not have made it? Even if it was quite
wrong of me to make it, why am I a louse for doing this wrong
thing? What is the reason that I have to condemn and punish myself
up),

telling

for acting badly?"

She would then tend to experience, at point E, the cognitive effect

it is not awful, but only inconvenient and unfortunate, for her to make errors; (b) that there is no evidence that
she should not be fallible and make errors; (c) that she is never
a louse or a worthless individual, even if she does things quite wrongly; and (d) that there is no reason why she ever has to condemn
herself as a human being, even when her acts are heinous, or why
she need punish herself for doing these acts though there are good
reasons why she'd better accept the wrongness of her deeds and
make future efforts to correct them. She would also tend to experience, along with these cognitive effects, the behavioral or emotional
effects of feeling considerably less anxious, less guilty, and less selfof believing (a) that

punitive.

The

therapist, by helping the client to see that '1 don't need to

anymore, maybe," has probably induced her, vaguely and by
shorthand statements to herself, to quickly undergo this A-B-C-D-E
self-deconditioning process of RET. If further sessions had materialized, he could have persuaded the client to go through the more
longhand process many times, and more effectively depropagandize
herself and immunize herself against future recurrence of guilt and
suffer

self-punitiveness.

'pir)5.

jf

yoy could read the Bible

critically, it

might be good for

you that is, to question it. Read it like you would any other
book. And say, ''What did he say? What did he mean? Is it
true? And so what?"

BEN

44

C^"''^:

N.

ARD,

Yeah. Like in Matthew, Jesus did a stupid thing.

JR., PH.D.

He

cursed

any fruit on it, and it was not

the season for the fig tree to have any fruit, anyway. So he
cursed the poor tree when it wasn't even made to have fruit
a tree because

it

didn't have

then.
T^'^^:

That

C^'^^:

Yeah.

pretty stupid on his part, isn't

is

And

it?

the time he cast the devils into the swine, and

those guys got pissed off at him? Well,

would

too,

because

they were their whole herd, you know; he destroyed the guys'
herd.
'pisg.

ji^Yid it

Q160.

]s^Q

wasn't the pigs' fault, was

^j^(j I

think

it

was

selfish, too,

it?

because he destroyed some

guys' ways that they lived on.

T^^^:

And

yet millions of people follow his every word, thought,

and deed, as

if

he

is

God's

own

son;

and he does stupid things

like that.
C^^^:

is the only book where he says he is the savior, and

was that important, why didn't they put it in all the
rest of them?
Why, indeed? It sounds to me like you are beginning to ques-

In John
if it

'piea.

beginning to think, beginning to use your mind.

tion,
C'^^:
'piso.

Yeah.
jj^

good, critical ways, for any book you read, including the

Bible.
Q166.

Yeah.

And

they found a man's bones that was over thirty

thousand years
T^^':

old.

Despite the story in the Bible that the world

to six

C168:

Yeah.

^169.

^Y\e
is

thousand years

answer

is

only four

old.

which I have heard some Christians give

must have planted those bones to confuse

to that

that the devil

us.
C^^^^i

Oh, wow!

T^''^:

Those kinds of answers ought to convince you that you don't

have to worry about the Christian view of man anymore. Then
you don't have to worry about hurting yourself anymore.

QiTz.

Wow! The devil planted the bones

did he make bones to begin with?

there to confuse us!

How

THE CASE OF THE BLACK AND SILVER MASOCHIST

'173.

45

That's like the angels on a pinhead, isn't

discussing because there

is

no point to

it?

Not worth

really

it.

Yeah. There are people starving in the streets, and these people

waste their time trying to decide how many angels can

dance on a pinhead.
Well,

you

see our time has gotten

like to

In about

Okay.

us.

When would

two weeks.

Same time?

Yeah.

(2)178

It

away from

get together again?

certainly would appear,

from the closing passages of this

that Dr. Ard's original goal has been at least

somewhat

session,

achieved:

beginning to think for herself, and not merely

may have given her. He agrees and in
response T^''-^ onward, adds to her anti-biblical views. But it seems
as if she is making an effort to gather information in this respect
and to think things through. So she appears to be successfully carrying out one of the main goals of RET: to have the client replace
conventional, dogmatic beliefs with more individualized, openthat the client

is

parrot any views that he

minded

attitudes.

Because of the impossibility of her making satisfactory arrangements (because of her physical handicap) to continue the sessions,
this tenth interview proved to be her last. It had been previously
agreed, moreover, that she would not have many sessions altogether;
and it appeared to her that she had already made highly satisfactory
progress; so therapy was, at least for the time, terminated. While

can hardly be said that the client was completely cured, she cerseemed to benefit appreciably from the ten sessions she had
with the therapist. The material just presented may help show what
can be accomplished with an individual who seemed, at the start,
to be almost hopeless. By pursuing rational-emotive therapy in an
active, direct manner, the therapist helped this client to make some
significant progress in a short period of time.
it

tainly

CHAPTER

Rational-Emotive Therapy
with a Culturally
Deprived Teen-Ager
H.

JON

GEIS, Ph.D.

The client in these sessions is a seventeen-year-old high school student who comes from a lower-class home in New York City. He
is of Rumanian extraction and lives alone with his mother. His father, brother, and sister died after the family came to the United
States, largely as a result of the extremely poor socioeconomic conditions in which the family lived. He was referred to Dr. Geis, who
was then a supervisor of counselors in training at New York University, by his high school guidance counselor, who had worked with
him for some time and had been unable to get beyond temporary
support. In giving the presenting problems over the phone, the guidance counselor merely told Dr. Geis that the boy was ''suicidal, perfectionistic, and felt low all the time."
An unusually long block of time over an hour and a quarter was
available for the first session, though RET is frequently done (especially by Dr. Geis and myself) in half-hour sessions. Consequently,
the therapist used the first half of the first session to get a good
deal more information about the client than is often done in this
kind of a case. During this part of the session, he discovered that
the client is, in his own words, a worrier who feels that he has to
get at least 90 on any test, or else he is a failure; he is a junior
in high school but has almost no friends; he speaks only Rumanian
at home because of his mother's poor command of English; he has
never had a date with a girl; he does not miss nor mourn for his
father, who was a "drill sergeant" and beat him severely when he
was a child; he finds his mother to be very nervous, angry, and
overly- restrictive; he frequently daydreams about being a great success but fears that he will end up as a Bowery bum; and he does
not admit to having any serious problems. In his response C^"^, he

46

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

says, "I guess I'm

47

no problem!" Dr. Geis, feeling that he has more

client by now and that it is safe
issues, picks him up at this point.

than enough information on the

to confront him with some basic

FIRST SESSION
that right?

T^:

Is

C^:

T'^:

C^:

(Pause) Mr. Nolte told

T'':

No well,

guess I made that's the way that's the way,

it (raises voice) it appears to you.
think you've got plenty of problems.

think they're

think

all

solv-

able, too.

me everybody has those problems.

everybody has some problems, but they don't have
the ones you have you've got them in a fairly intense
form and you're overcoming yourself to some extent. You

know, your emotions are pretty intense right now. Everybody

doesn't have exactly these problems and this intensity. But
problems occur like this. These are psychological problems,
and psychological problems have to do with the way you think.

And

the

way you

think

is

not like a skin problem, or

it's

not like being physically disabled and not having a leg, or

something. You can change the

way you

think, so you don't

have these kinds of problems any more. Now,

Mr. Nolte must have told

down

ors

of hospitals.
I

you I'm

here. I'm a psychologist,

I

how

pain in the ass about a

to find

your way out

and

do work for a

lot

And

think you're giving your-

lot of

of. I

is,

supervisor of the counsel-

do essentially what a psychiatrist does.

think you need this kind of help.

self a

my work

things you don't

know

can thoroughly understand

it feels like, and I think you can find your way out.
happens that I have some time, once a week, or more if
necessary, and I'll be glad to see you if you'd like to get
working on this.
It's my only way out. (Laughs) Yeah, I want to sure, see

what
It

C*^:

somebody that's
T":

Yeah.

C^:

So

else,

can

all.

say 'cause

and

tell

can't

them about

just can't just

it.

go go to anybody

H.

48

JON GEIS, PH.D.

T^:

Well, you can, but they're not likely to give you

C^":

(Mumbles) I'd
like like ten

'cause they don't

know what's up on this

be damn afraid if I

be I'd

help,

either.

did and

I I'd

feel

fools.

T^^:

Which

C^-:

Yes.

T^^:

'Cause you think you're a piece of

is

much

part of your problem.

and you've got

shit,

to

prove to them differently.

C^"^:

I'm glad you understand that. (Laughs)

T^-':

That in

that

way

you're not

much

different

from most peo-

a lot of people think that they've got to prove that

ple, 'cause

they're not shits instead of starting out

C^^:

I'm afraid they do.

T^'^:

assuming they are okay,

C^^:

started to prove

it

with

to

just

indirectly

by getting a high average

and
T^^:

Yeah, but

see,

your mistake

of shit in the first place,

is

that you believe you're a piece

and then you try

to prove you're

not.
C20:

How? (Laughs)

T^^:

Well,

it's

a matter of the

way you

describe yourself, see;

let's

suppose, for example, you flunk this term. Let's suppose you
do,
022;

okay?

Yeah, and

know what.

know what
just just sink

don't
I'd

I'll

probably I don't
ground and forget it.

do. I'd

to the

(Laughs)
T23:

Yeah, well, someone else might say, ''God, I flunked. I'd better
get going and try something different, handle it in a different
way." You'd sink yourself to the ground because you'd say
to yourself.

"Ah

my

first

think

hah, that

T^-':

Yeah, yeah. But I'm saying,

way

piece of

time

C^"*:

of the

means I'm a no good

see, that this is just

more evidence

you're giving yourself a hard time, because you're

saying to yourself something

C2:

no damn good."
(Grunt)

T^^:

And

like, "If

fail,

that proves I'm

I'm saying to you, you start out with the assumption

"I'm no good; I'm no

damn good

unless

can do very, very

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

well." (Pause)

You

49

someone says

see, so that if

''The

moon

is made of green cheese it's made of green cheese unless

you go out and run around the block in four seconds." It's
just as idiotic, you see. The burden of proof is on the person
who asserts it in the first place. You're asserting something

that's very nutty. You're asserting that you're a piece of shit

as your basic premise; and then you're saying to yourself,

"Well, I'm a piece of shit unless

And

as a piece of shit, you

C2:

Um-hm.

T^^:

You know
two

get very, very high grades."

since you, like everybody else, don't

work your

the story of the millionaire

million,

want

to see yourself

ass off to get high grades.

who makes one

million,

and

C^":

Yes.

T^^:

Not twenty million

is

enough.

Why? Because

he's always got

to prove to himself that he's not a piece of shit

another million. But

it's

by making

not making a million that's going

changing his idea of himself. 'Cause there

is no such thing as a person being a piece of shit or a worthless
person. People wrongly make mistakes
to solve

It's

it.

Q32.

Well. (Mumbles)

T^^:

But who
die.

care

wouldn't give a damn.

damn for you. What

whether anybody gives a damn? If you die,

in the fuck

the hell do

you

Who

needs to give a

You're assuming that

people don't give a

because most of them don't

So

it's

going to be horrible if
most of them don't anyway,

it's

damn which

know

you, as far as that goes.

tough, you ain't got anybody.

for the rest of your life

You can

live

very nicely

you never talk to another person,

know
you
damn well. But you believe you've got to have some
kind of swinging relationship with people who understand
you and all that kind of thing which would be very nice,
don't get me wrong. I think that's nice. I think that getting
if

along with people

is

very nice, you could learn to do

it

without

question. But you're putting yourself in the hole because you

believe you need

you fail a course.

So you don't have people you can talk to who understand you.
It's partly that way because you keep away from them.
it.

So

it's

touch shit

if

H.

50

C'^'*:

JON GEIS, PH.D.

Oh, really, you're at one extreme or the other, either at the

bottom or at the top of

it.

It still

don't have no way. (Laughs)

T^'\

Sure.

C^^:

It still

T^^:

Comes out

C^^:

T^^:

Sure, yeah, and you're beating yourself over the head with

(mumbles, laughs)
the

wrong way.

understand that.

making problems for

want to show you how to unscramble them. You
see? But when you stop making the problems for yourself,
then things begin to swing more easily, and you have people
if you want people. But you don't need people as you think
that psychological baseball bat. You're
yourself.

you do, and you don't need to succeed

in

school which you

obviously can do, but you think you need to do, you see.

you need to do
unless

it

'Tm

because you think

And

no goddamn good

do."

G^^:

That's right. That's that's the bag.

T^^:

Yeah, that's right.

And that's bullshit because it's an arbitrary

What if I said to you, "Look, you're

definition you've set up.

no

damn

good, unless you can run around the block in four

seconds." That would be

silly,

wouldn't

it?

Would that make

would only make you no damn good

in my view, you see? Now what if you said that to yourself,
"I'm no damn good unless I can run around the block in four

you no damn good?

It

seconds"?

would

really be that

way.

really be that

way

C^^:

It

T43:

Hm?

C^'*:

It

T^-^:

That's right. But

C^^>:

Yeah.

T^':

Because well, what does "no damn good" mean anyway? "No
damn good" is a value judgment of your worth. You say, "I'm

would

above."

No.

said

if I

it

to myself.

can do this or this or this." But

suppose you had a son, seventeen years

to him, "Son, you're

C'^:

if I

it's idiotic, isn't it?

worthwhile as a person
let's

for me,

no

Would you say

damn good

it

to

him?

if

old,

and you said

you don't get 93s or

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

Would you

believe

51

it that he would be no damn good

if

he

didn't succeed?

^50

No.

T
C
T

Well,

how can you

{Laughs)

believe

it

about yourself?

don't know.

is what you learn from your family you

was pretty kookie, and your mother to some
extent misunderstands some of those things. And you learn
this from them like most other kids do. Now you've got to

Well,

know. This

said your father

unlearn

it,

that's

How?
By examining
ing

it

it,

just the

all.

by being more aware of

way

it,

and by question-

I'm questioning you. Use the kinds of

questions I'm throwing at you. I'm asking for evidence about

these things. This

is

the type of thinking you have to learn

to do for yourself to get rid of these. Let's suppose you believe

that black cats brought bad luck.

It's

a superstition. The kinds

of things you believe are like this superstition.

things you believe are like this superstition. So

to you, "All right, let's suppose

you and

The kinds of
I

would say

talk about black

you bad luck." And you say, "Well, I know, Mr.

know
Geis, I
they don't really bring you bad luck, but somehow
I feel they do." What this means is that you seemingly do
believe it. You see? And so what we do, we talk about it;
you think about it. You go outside, and you look at black
cats for a week or two. You think about it some more, and
we talk about it some more, and you ask yourself, "Hell, could
cats bringing

bad luck?" And then you go up and pat a black

cat on the head, and after a while, your fear is gone, because
you don't believe that bullshit, you see? You thought your
way out of it, and you have the experience. This is the same
kind of thing. Now, maybe, you'll never get completely over
some of this. Most likely you can get over a hell of a lot of
it, enough so that you can live a very normal life and be
happy and continue to strive for the things you want to strive
for. You can continue to work very hard to get good grades
and all the rest of it if you want to. But you won't need to.
You won't be scared to death that you're going to flip your
top or do something like that if you don't get good grades.
it

really bring

H.

52

JON GEIS, PH.D.

Mr. Nolte said something about your talking about killing

yourself.

Yes.

C-^^:

Several important facets of

RET

are demonstrated in the forego-

ing passages:
Dr. Geis frankly tells the client, in T^ and

that he has severe

emotional problems on which he had better work. This kind of confrontation is common in RET. After the therapist has determined
that the client can take it, he frequently shows him sometimes
quoting chapter and verse from his own statements that he has
more disturbances than he may think he has, and that although
he is privileged to do nothing whatever about these, it would be
far better if he did work hard against them. At the same time,
he usually shows the client that his problems are quite solvable i/
he wants to do the work to understand and uproot them. He is
therefore supportive as well as confrontational, and consequently
little traumatization of the client results.
1.

2.

Dr. Geis tells the client, in T^^

that he thinks he's

''a

T-^,

and the next few responses,

piece of shit" and that he has to prove other-

wise to those with whom he comes into contact. Mind you, the boy
has not said anything of the sort, up to this point, about himself
that he considers himself terribly inadequate or worthless. But because of his perfectionistic demands on himself and because of his
anxiety and depression, the therapist can easily deduce that he
thinks he's some kind of rotter. He therefore takes a chance on
calling this to the boy's attention
mainly in the interest of effi-

ciency and brevity. If his "shot in the

light of

RET theory does

dark" really,

his shot in the

not work, the therapist will not be non-

plussed but will merely try another tactic. If evidence presents

he

may even

itself,

revise his hypothesis that the client thinks he's "a

But almost always this kind of a highly educated guess works,

and the client responds confirmingly and seems to be grateful that
the therapist has understood him so well.

shit."

3. Dr. Geis takes a hard RET line, in T^^ and tries to show the
boy that he definitely does not need others' approval, though he
might very sensibly want to have this approval. He deliberately takes
his fear of disapproval to extremes and indicates that if nobody loved
him he would not have to be utterly miserable (though he would
normally be quite deprived and saddened). He makes the classical

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

RET

53

between an individual's wants and his presumed

if the boy will surrender his
needs, he will become more efficient at getting what he wantspeople's approval. This is one of the main "selling points" of RET:
that if the client will work hard to retranslate his needs into wants,
he will then usually become much more effective at actually getting
many of them fulfilled.
distinction

needs; and he strongly implies that

Having successfully taken a chance at confronting the client

with some of his basic problems, Dr. Geis feels safe, in T'''\ in questioning him about his talk of suicide which the therapist only
4.

knows, at this point, through the referring source. In this respect,

RET is often a most probing kind of therapy partly because the
therapist feels that it would be valuable if the client fully and openly
acknowledged his real feelings, including his most negative ones,
and partly because he also feels that no matter what material is
brought out, it can usually be effectually handled with RET methods.
Other kinds of confrontational methods, especially those used in
encounter groups and Synanon-type groups, are often quite effective
in inducing clients to bring out their deepest feelings and problems,
too (Yablonsky, 1965). But RET offers much more than ventilation
of emotions in this respect; it also offers problem-solving methods
that may well help to change or eradicate destructive emotions (Ellis,
1969a, 1971b).

How
Q'oS

'p59

^60

Um-hm.
when I had had

That's

I I

(362

long have you been thinking about this?

Oh, during the summer.

the time to think about a lot of things.

Sometimes I would seem to, so I would be

so depressed. I don't know what reason or what thought. Just
feel so damn out of place and what. So so it's that.
How's it lately? You think of this, too?
Not too lately.
don't know.

'pes

Um-hm.

Q64

No,

(Pause)

You think you can

really do it?

don't think I have the nerve or but if I were (inaudiwould be existing, and it would be intensified. I guess
that would be the only way out.
I

ble)

'p6.=

Um-hm.
the way

It

always with a

situation like this,

it's

this

way

you're getting very depressed. You're not thinking

54

H.

JON GEIS, PH.D.

very clearly; your judgment's not good. You've been thinking

about the stuff before, and you think about

could do something impulsively, see.
particularly to
state.

worry about

it

it

again.

You

don't think you have

now that

in

is,

your present

don't think you would have gone further, and help

was around the

corner, right around the corner. But

think

your problems are quite solvable, quite solvable.

hope

C^^:

T67:

Well-

C^^:

so.

don't

know how

the

can always (inaudible)

life will be. I

stop living.

the hell why do

Why

^69.

What

C^^:

That's that's a good way of (laughs) looking at it.

Sure, anybody can do that little thing. Hemingway did it when
he was sixty-some years old, presumably because he had
cancer. Yeah, with that, I might want to.

it

now?

not give

it

a try to solve

it?

T^^:

C^^:

Yeah, but
look,

how

don't

know how

the

life will be,

how

the sun will how the sun will look

take myself out of the hole like I'm doing now.

T^^:

what I'm stepping into.

You know what you're stepping

C^^:

How how's

T^-^:

Yeah.

C^^:

What's that

being yourself with

T^^:

had a

lots of
it's
I

lots of

get if I
don't know

You're stepping into

into.

problems.

the sky will

if I

had a client

that?

like?

client

who sometimes

just

had

to

go on

other people are screaming in the world.

faith,

because

And

(laughs)

not unreasonable that you could learn to be that way, too.

have seen

lots of

a client last year

people work on this kind of thing I had

whom

was working with who

one session, 'Tou know, sometimes

pretty shitty world."

And

a pretty shitty world."

said, "I'll tell

A war is

said after

begin to think

you a

it's

secret. It is

pretty shitty in a lot of ways.

They're killing guys over in Vietnam on both sides, and people

are being raped and houses burned and

all

this kind of stuff.

Okay, that's not a good war or a good world!

'78.

What

are

we going

to do about it?

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

'79.

55

You've got to protest. You've got to do something about yourself.

mean

you're a person.

"Look, your problem

world.
self.

Your problem

And

is

is

Now,

as

said to this client,

not to have a shitty view about the

to get the best things in life for your-

as long as you say, "Oh,

what a

shitty world,"

and

you take a shitty view, and have shitty glasses on, of course
you're going to see only a shitty world. Now there are people
who have a good time in life, who make a swinging thing
out for themselves or at least don't give themselves the pain

giving yourself.

in the ass you're

Um-hm.
So your problem is, not to look at things in a shitty way,
but to go on after the good things in life for yourself. Get
as much as you can out of it. And there ain't no more. Recog-

But look leave the shit to other

people. You try to get what you can, which is what you're
nize that a lot of

it is

shitty.

doing, of course. But, see, this

is

the difference.

You

compare your your situation right now with a river

logs, let's say, running down to the mill.

could

full

of

Um-hm.
The

jammed up. It's

jammed up. What
jamming it up out

logs are floating down, except they're

a good river

of logs, except they're

full

we've got to do
of the

way

so

get the logs that are

can flow right along, or you can be at a

is

it

standstill. That's the

ing for

way you can be yourself (Pai^ses,

grop-

name)

Robert G!
Robert G!
QS6

Right.

Okay. Well, how do you pronounce

it?

Gulanovitch.
Gulanovitch.

Would you rather I

called

you "G" or Gulanovitch?

Robert G.
^^91

Okay.

^^93

All right,

It's

so

much more

easier.

you can be Robert G. And this means getting some

of the nutty ideas out of your being and that sort of thing;
and, then it's the world that it always was. See, the world

56

H.

JON GEIS, PH.D.

how you feel. The sun's got to come up

tomorrow whether you're here or not and even whether you
Hke it or not. I may like it, or I may not. That's tough shit!
It's going to come up whether I like it or not. And the war
in Vietnam is going to go on, a little while longer at least,
whether I like it or not. So my problem is to square myself
doesn't give a shit

away, to not be upset about this

stuff.

By

and going after the good things that

intelligent thinking,

can get, in order to

meet my responsibilities. And that's all there is in life period.

With regard to the everyday business of living, it's pretty
tough sometimes. You have to work all hours of the night
sometimes. Maybe you can't get off tonight, or maybe you
haven't got a girl friend, or whatever the hell

it is.

So, tough!

What

are you going to do, cry about it? Or make plans, so

you can get what you want? See, in a way it's a common
sense thing. In another way, it takes some pretty good thinking and some learning. You've got some nutty ideas that

you've picked up along the

you've got to do

is

way without

ble ideas. I've a lot of clients

willing to

work or

get better a

questioning.

What

unlearn them and replace them with sensi-

who get

well whether they are

not; but if you're willing to work, you'll

lot faster.

work on everything.

C^^:

I'll

T^'^:

would think you would.

C^^:

don't have any

way

out except to work on

Dr. Geis's responses, in T^\ T^^, and

T^-^,

it!

(Laughs)

are the kind of statements

that often get rational-emotive therapy and those that practice

it

easy for the client or anyone else to misconstrue them. What he is really explaining to the boy is that he (and
anyone else) actually can enjoy his own life a good deal even though
life itself, or the environment in which it is presently lived, is pretty
shitty. But he is not encouraging him to be irresponsible, short-rangedly hedonistic, asocial, or antisocial. For the RET philosophy overlaps significantly with the slogan that Reinhold Niebuhr coined and
into trouble, since

it is

Anonymous uses: give me the power to change what

can change, the serenity to accept what I cannot, and the wisdom
to know the difference between the two. Once, through the use of

that Alcoholics
I

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

RET, the

57

individual has attained a state of nondisturbance or "unup-

then able to go back to the poor conditions that exist

work very hard, if he chooses to do so, at changing
them. Dr. Geis, therefore, is not counseling Robert G. to ignore the
shitty world in which he lives and to give up all endeavors to reconstruct it. He is counseling him, instead, not to demand that the
world be better and thereby to put himself in a position where
he may be able to better it.
setness," he
in his life

is

and

to

T^^:

Yeah, and you can notice results pretty quickly too some
of them. Let's get back to the fact that you think you're a
shit, because you don't
you don't get good grades

because you're a failure. You're a

shit,

get good grades or top grades.

Now

or top grades. What's the evidence that you're a shit? (Pause)

Well,

my

it's

turn.

But

it

does seem to stem from what you

think.
C^^:

(Laughs). Well, well, there are seven million volumes in the

New York
hundred,

Public Library.

it's

And

if I

just this isn't this

don't master at least a

isn't reality.

I'm just think-

ing
T99:
Qioo.

Yeah.

_the way

want to stress it. If I don't master a hundred,

so much knowledge in this one hundred books

and there

is

And even

if I

do, there're

still

six million, nine

hundred thou-

sand something
T^^^:

Yeah, you can never get

Q102.

You

T103:

Right!

C^^^:

And
it,

j'j^

and you

And you

think

if

you do get

and then go to the second hundred, it's

if

it?"

And look a million other people read a hundred volumes,

they do it, why can't I? And if I can do it, then why

if

can't

You

it,

asking you, ''Do you have evidence that you're a shit

Yes.

and
'107.

all,

you're having a hell of a time getting a hundredth of

you don't get

106.

it

a hundred books mastered.

this,

^105.

it all.

and you can't get half of

can't get one fourth of it
can't get

do two hundred?

can.

58

JON GEIS, PH.D.

H.

C^o8:

And Fm

'pioB.

You

afraid

don't have

can't.

to,

though. See, this

is

the point!

And you

beheve you have to, or you're going to be a shit. Isn't this

true? (Pause) Okay, now what's the evidence for this behef?
Again, we're back to the moon made of green cheese. I can
say that I can hear little Martians, but if there isn't any evidence, you'd better not accept it. You'd better get rid of this
idea. It's interfering with your life this notion of knowing
everything.
(^110.

gave the evidence. I always thought the evidence

you know it. Then I sup I'm supposed to know
mean if

\Yell,

was well,
it.

Till:

C112:

Says who?
Says me. That's the

^113.

Well, but

Cii^:

Tii^:

Well, you'd better start trying.

who

fact.

It's

are you to

say

don't know. Explain

it.

You see, you picked this belief

up somewhere along the line because of some kind of propaganda you got from somewhere, like the rest of our people
get. It's in our culture, this kind of bullshit.

To get ourselves

healthy again, we've got to start thinking our

this crap.

Now, you're saying, 'Tm a

shit if

way through

don't read

two

hundred books." Well, I'm saying, unless there's some evidence

that you're going to be a shit, that you can prove that you're
going to be a shit, you'd better give up this idea. 'Cause you're
the one who's saying it, who's obsessed with this idea.

my myself.

(]ii6.

j'j^

Til'':

You're not proving

proving

it

in

it.

You're asserting

it.

You're saying

it's

the case.
Qii^:

Yes, I'm asserting, and I'm taking that as proof,

Tii^:

Yes, that's exactly right.

You

are.

You

guess.

see, the real fact is

that there is no evidence. Because this this

is

not the kind

of statement that you can have any evidence for. Because

it's

a value, a moral value; what someone's worth. That's what

we
or
I

really

mean by

something or

"shit." You're a worthless piece of shit

you're a worthwhile guy. Look at this: If

say you're a worthwhile guy, that doesn't

while guy. If

say this

is

make you a worthhuman being.

a desk and you're a

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

those are true statements. But
all

I'm really saying

is

that

if

59

say you're worthwhile,

think you're worthwhile, you're

a valuable guy, you're a nice guy. But this doesn't

What

so.

if I

say to you, ''Robert

G., you're

make

it

an automobile"?

Does this make you an automobile? Even if you get down

on your knees and drink gas and chug along, does that make
you an automobile? No, of course not. So if I say to you, "You're
a worthless piece of shit, Robert G.," it doesn't make you
a worthless piece of shit either.

C 120.

You

feel that

way because

you think that way. You can't possibly have a feeling like
this unless you have some idea about yourself.
I tried to make it my own way. I've I tried to do thinking
my own way, to shut out what you think, or what he thinks,

what she

thinks,

what

'pi21

Yeah, yeah, but the problem

C122

And

'pi23

Right.

is

what you

think, you see.

make it what I think, and I made it wrong.

You did. You made it wrong. Now we're

tried to

made

C124

{Mumbles)

^^125

Yeah. Now, I'm saying you've got to get rid of this nutty
idea that you have.

^126.

All right,

'pi27.

You

what do

substitute?

substitute the notion that you are worthwhile, whether

or not you get good grades, whether or not you read

two

hundred books, whether or not anybody

Because
that's what worth is. It's something that does not depend on
something else. The minute you say, "I'm worthwhile when
I get high grades," you put yourself in a box, because the
minute you don't get high grades, guess who you are? And
what do you think about yourself? You're obviously bright
'cause you can understand a lot of this stuff, you know which
else likes you.

is

kind of complex.

Now

you've got to rethink. I'm asking

you for evidence, and you haven't given

I

know

you
C128.
'pi29.

it,

me any

'cause you're in a box, 'cause there

evidence.

is

And

no evidence,

see.

Um-hm. WeW (Voice trailing off)

And so the question is, how can you go on

thinking this idiotic

jazz about yourself without the evidence, particularly w^hen

you screw yourself up? Nobody ever found out how you were
screwing yourself up, of course. That's what I'm doing now\

60

C^^^:

H.

(Laughs) Well,

not going to hurt me. (Laughs)

it's

make benefit

posed to

You're supposed to benefit you 'cause

Q132.

j'j^

T133:

Yeah, that's right.

C134:

Um-hm.

^135.

^j^(j j^g^

supposed to help

^^y

It's

sup-

me.

T^^^:

|-]^g

JON GEIS, PH.D.

me

help myself?

Yj^ giving you the idea that you could have

come to yourself that you screw yourself up by the way you

think by the same token, you give yourself all the goodies
by the way you think, too. You can make yourself feel good.
C^^^:

Um-hm.

^137.

_i

yQ^ ^Q gg^ angry at

(jgfy

guess that's true. (Laughs)

me

now without thinking

right

something.
Q138.

\Yhat do you mean?

^139.

You

can't get

angry at

me

some kind of emotion

some idea

or have

or get depressed or anything unless you've got

behind

it.

There are no such things as just emotions floating

around. They come from ideas and nonsense.

C^^o.

Um-hm.

C^'*^:

So I'm trying to show you that you

will feel better

when you

get your concepts and ideas straightened out.

C142:
'pMs.

Um-hm.
You see, one

of these

of shit unless
C^^^:
T^^"^:

Um-hm.
And I don't

is

that you would always be a piece

who

no matter if it is all
the teachers or all your friends. 'Cause they think this, too:
they're shits, and you're a shit if you don't do well in school.
give a shit

The

society thinks

are

wrong they're

it,

but

says

it,

don't care

simply wrong.

if

And

they think that. They

this is

one of the big-

gest problems in the American culture the problem you

present. This is one of the main things I'm trying to get

through our counselors' heads in working with young peoplelast year and this year again. The minute you attach

your personal worth to something outside yourself or to some

condition, you put yourself in a box, 'cause the minute that
condition

You

is

not met, you feel lousy, and you're depressed.

say, "Oh,

how

terrible,

what a worthless guy

am."

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

All right, so

C^"*^^:

You

a good guy

the time. You're a good guy.

all

think of yourself as a good

'Cause

T^^^:

Vm

am

61

guy

intrinsically worthwhile, yeah.

Dr. Geis emphasizes, in T^^\ T^^\

elegant approach
is not a shit. That

and

T^^s^

^^at

now

call

the

to helping the individual feel that he is not

less

worthless,

is

to say, he

shows the boy that he

only a turd by his own arbitrary definition and that there isn't
(nor ever really can be) any empirical, scientifically-based evidence
is

to back that hypothesis.

on the person's reading

Human
many

worth, he insists, does not depend

books, getting good grades, winning

else. The individual is "good"

simply because he exists because he is intrinsically worthwhile
(Hartman, 1959, 1967; Tillich, 1953).
This is a pragmatically sensible standard of human worth
because it works. But, as I have shown elsewhere in this volume
and in a number of other publications (Ellis, 1968, 1971a, 1971b, in
press a, in press c; Ellis and Gullo, 1971), it is philosophically inelegant
and would better be replaced by the idea that humans are not really
ratable at all, that they are therefore neither good nor bad, and
that they would best discontinue all forms of deifying and devilifying themselves (or awarding themselves ''ego-strength" and "turdhood"). Even RET therapists, however, who today use this more
elegant approach with their clients, as I usually do, would have to
decide whether it would be wise to attempt to do so with a relatively
young, unsophisticated client such as Robert G. He might well not
be able, as yet, to achieve this abstract level of thinking. Consequently, if he is helped merely to accept himself as "good" because
of his aliveness, and in that manner to stop rating himself as "bad,"

other people's approval, or anything

this

may be

the best solution feasible in his case (and in

many

similar

instances).

C148.
^149.

You never want to be that that that level.

Now, wait a minute! I'm not talking about not wanting

to

succeed. I'm very ambitious to succeed myself. I'm writing

a book, a book I'm half working on; I've got eleven articles
going; I'm doing
of things.
Q150.

^^^

all

sorts of things;

and

you're not putting yourself in the box?

want

to do lots

62
'151.

H.

No.

You know why? Because

don't think

Vm

JON GEIS, PH.D.

a shit

if I

don't

succeed.
Ci^2.

Um-hm.

rpisa.

gy^ yg^ (Jq That's the difference, you see. But if you can
go ahead [with wants] and start with the same things, you'll
in fact be more likely to attain them.

Ci^^:

Um-hm.

T^^^:

So you free yourself.

C^^^:

It

T^^^:

It is simple.

sounds sounds
But

easy.
it

takes some retraining, you see. 'Cause

your thoughts, particularly the ones you're not aware of, often
have been all in this sort of direction. So it's going to take

some working

on, but

it isn't

that hard.

C158.

Where do

'pisQ.

it over a lot. Take notes,

you want, on this stuff.
j'yg thought about it already.
That's all right. I could suggest a book you should get. Now,
if you're going to spend money on the book, I won't charge
you anything for this session. 'Cause this is this would be

start?

Well, you start by thinking; but think

if

Q160.

T^^i;

down here

part of our work

guidance

[at the

New York

University

clinic].

C162;

What book?

'piss.

Well, I'd suggest to you a book with a lot of these ideas in

it.

If

tures.

you've got any money, you can come to hear some

Matter of

fact, you're

welcome

giving at the university here on

with yourself. This

is

to

lec-

hear a lecture I'm

Monday on doing therapy

psychotherapy or analysis or whatever

^165.

you want to call it.

(Laughs) I love the way you put it. (Laughs) I don't know.
It's nobody ever got to me this this deep in my life.
(Laughs)
Well, you're off in the winning then.

Q166.

_Qj^ Monday?

T^^^:

You

C^^^:

don't have to

come I'm

just saying that this

is

available,

work together and I'm going

to help you, I want you to work on this and do some thinking.
If you've got money for a book, I can send you uptown to
the Institute for Rational Living, where you can pick it up.
'cause if

you and

are going to

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

And you might

63

get some information there about some of

the courses and lectures.

I won't expect you to take a course

going to be lecturing, and some other
people are going to be lecturing psychologists and psychia-

at the Institute, but

But

trists.

you want to get involved

if

your thinking, you

see,

thinking. So a few
of thinking,

Vm

we

months of

and teach healthy

'getting involved in this kind

and you'd be significantly

probably notice in about a few weeks.

In well you'll
And you probably feel

better.

today

better
^168.

in straightening out

talk healthy talk

Yeah,

think

do.

because you're thinking a little straighter. But in a couple

of weeks, if we work together, you'll feel significantly better.
And then you'll have to tackle the hard work of getting at
some of the things you haven't been aware of before that
are real habits. These are

mind, so to speak, just

some all

like habits.

of these ideas

And

lie in

your

you've got to work

on them and get rid of them. Like the fear of

girls.

We've

got to get you over that take your ass out, and get you having
experiences with girlsWell,

met

a girl

who somewhere (inaudible) thsiVs

it.

(Laughs)
'pi71

C172

What happened?
I

can't get close.

You
C174

don't

know how

to

approach

can't

don't

know how

to talk.

So you learn.
Qiie

Would

From

you, from a book?

a book and getting practice.

You can

baseball like a major leaguer from a book.

how to play
You can learn to

learn

drive an automobile or repair an automobile from a book,

partly.

Hm?
'pi79.

And

that's just like this. That's

what we would

do. We'll talk

about the ideas and what your experiences are, and then it's
up to you to go on and just give 'em a try. You don't have
to be very successful. All I want you to do is start getting
involved, you see. Like when you sit down to study, I'd like
you to start listening to what you're saying to yourself about

64

JON GEIS, PH.D.

H.

''Oh, I've

got to get this grade," and

More important,

this sort of thing.

all

what you hear yourself say to your'Cause 90 percent of what people say to themselves

self.

Qiso.

^11 right,

^181.

_9o

listen to

really could listen to myself.

percent of what you say, you probably don't hear.

You

bought something; you're going home; you probably say, "Oh,

I should take that subway. I'll go over there, and I'll do something." You don't hear what you're saying half the time.
Ci2:
T^^^:

Um-hm.
now we want

See,

to get you

more

sensitive to hearing what's

going on.
C^^'*:

'piss.

going to listen to what I'm telling myself.

You find out the major thing you're telling yourself and ask
yourself, "Is it true? What's the evidence? What's so terrible

All right, I'm

about that?"
(]i86.

Right or wrong?

T^*^:

Yeah.
I

ask

And

let's say,

you say to yourself, "Oh God,

this girl for a date, if she says no,

to do? Well, she

like it?" See,

might not Hke

terrible

C188:

Um-hm.

'pisg.

]sjq^ you've

if

she doesn't

you can be challenging these ideas you have.

'Cause you've got certain assumptions

gonna be

what's she going

what

Well, so

it.

go if

if I

and

now

that things are

horrible.

got these assumptions.

thing that's terrible and horrible in

And

there ain't a

damn

Sure, you

life in itself.

the atom bomb or say that somebody with a baseball

gonna hit you on the head. These you can get legitimately
afraid of, see? I was just talking to my students a couple of
hours ago about the war crisis three years ago when we
thought Manhattan Island might be bombed. It's a wonder

name

can

bat's

how

I first

talked myself out of 96 or 97 percent of

got very anxious, but then

said,

"What

my

anxieties.

the hell's going

on here? So I'm going to die sometime, you know. Why should

I go out half-cocked and waste a life, avoid having a ball,
or something, or get scared just because I'm very anxious?
I'll

get rid of the anxiety and do things rationally." So

what

was saying;

"I think

in the building there's

I

said, "Shit! If there's

it

will

be so terrible

no place to run," and

no place to run, so

all

if

heard
I

die,

these things.

die!

So

it's

close

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

to forty years earlier than

get anxious anymore.

was

expected, so what!" So

able to go about doing

And you know you

can do

^190

All right. (Laughs)

When

'pi91

when can you come?

Uh-mm, Saturday? Uh-mm, Saturdays.
Any other time in case we have to set

C192
'J'193

Q194

No

'pi95

No.

^196

Uh.

'pi97

Eventually

possibility of

now because

learn

how

to do

it.

come?

up for some other

I can see now.

perhaps could see you at home; but

I'm moving into

of the students

my new

place.

can't right

But

it

may

be

have to be here. One

and the counselors are working. So

and Saturday

here,

is,

Hey, Saturdays are

^^199

Okay.

Q200

As long

as

time so

Just just

it

Sunday?

(^198

'p203

do

You can

didn't

think will be okay as far as

more appropriate

Q202.

this.

some work.

Well,

time? Saturday

'p201.

65

all

right.

have some time (pause) I I just piece out my

have time here and have time to study, weekends.
I

and grab a

look in books

bite,

and

that's

it.

Week-

endthat's the weekend.

Are you working now? Making any money?
I am. I might be a neighborhood Youth Corpsman, and I'm I'm doing clerical work.
You're making money for it?

Oh, in school

C204

Yes.

'p205

Yeah. 'Cause

Q206

No, not this afternoon,

'p207

Well, after school

Q208

Yes.

'p209

I'd like

you to get this book. And I'll write out

for you where to go, and you just tell them I sent you, and
they'll fix you up. Do you have the money for the book, and
could you get up there [to the Institute for Rational Living]
I'd like

this afternoon?
I

don't think so.

Monday

you to do a

little

or something.

Whenever you

can.

reading in this book, just on things

that are of interest to you.

It's

a reference book.

It's

not

something you read once and put down. But it'll discuss a
lot of these ideas that you and I have talked about, plus some
other ones which may be helpful.

66

JON GEIS, PH.D.

H.

C'^io;

(Silence)

T^^^:

Maybe you'd

better

copy on hand.

call first

me

and that I asked you

you one of their copies, 'cause I want

for psychotherapy

to ask her if they'd give

it

as soon as possible.

C212:

(Silence)

'^213.

Now, what do you think you could be doing

What would you

on your problems?
kind of work,

not have a

talked to the secretary yesterday. Tell her

that you're seeing

you to have

may

because they

we

this

week

to

work

like to do? 'Cause in this

expect you to do some thinking and some

and try to tackle some problems a little bit, so after

a while they get easier and easier. If we just talk over everything and you never try to tackle them, why, it's going to
be a long, slow process. So what do you think you could do call
practice

it

C^^^:

homework?

Um,

talk to the girl. (Laughs)

mind up
T215:

Um-hm.

C^^^:

And

made that I made my

to do that last night.

could call her up tomorrow and see

Tuesday is a holiday.

if I

could see her Tues-

day.
^^217

Um-hm.

Q218

That's sort of auto-psychotherapy,

^^219

Self-saving therapy?

Q220

Um.
Any

'p221

guess.

chance you'd be interested in or available to come to

'J'223

Monday, 'cause I'm

\Yeii^ what time is it on Monday?
It's six ten minutes after six. Gonna be in

C224

Oh

'J'225

Okay.

Q226

Psychologists have always interested me.

rp227

Maybe

C228

(Laughing) Oh, no!

this lecture I'm giving

Q222.

good, as long as
I

don't

you'll

know

is

we'd be able to

this first session

with Dr. Geis and Robert

notable for the use of several other methods that are

employed
1.

if

this building.

not on a school day.

be one some day.

The closing part of

G.

it's

in

commonly

RET:

In Ti^\ the therapist highly

recommends that the

client purchase

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

67

and read one of the main self-help texts of RET: A Guide to Rational
Living (Ellis and Harper, 1970). He is so eager for the client to
read this book that he even suggests that he will arrange with the
clinic under whose auspices he is working to charge the client no
he purchases a copy of the book. As
on some of the other counseling cases
in this book, this is a frequent practice in RET. Clients are assigned
reading material to supplement the therapy sessions, and it is generally found that considerable amounts of therapist and client time
and energy are thus saved.
fee for the first session

mentioned

2.

may

in

little

find

it

if

my comment

more unusually. Dr. Geis

some of

helpful to attend

also suggests that the

boy

his talks at the university

or his courses at the Institute for Rational Living in

New York

United States, such talks

and courses are not available. But in larger cities, therapists and
their colleagues may give public presentations on RET or related
topics, and these are often found to be quite helpful to clients or
City. Often, especially in rural areas of the

The Institute for Rational Living also distributes some

recorded talks that can be similarly employed by clients.

ex-clients.

3. It is notable that, in response C^^, the client remarks that

"nobody ever got to me this deep in my life." Even though he has
had several sessions with his high school guidance counselor, he recognizes that Dr. Geis, in a single session, has reached him on a
much deeper level. This is not merely because the therapist has
directly probed and asked him about intimate details of his feelings
that no one has previously inquired about, but mainly, probably,
because Dr. Geis has explained to Robert G. exactly what he has
been thinking to create some of his most self-defeating feelings
and precisely what he can do to change them. This is a frequent
finding in RET: that even when the therapist does not use dramatic
experiential, cathartic, physical, existential, or encountering
methods of "opening up" the client, his didactic talk with this client
is on such a deeply insightful and philosophically attacking level
that the client experiences profound feelings about himself that he
sometimes has never previously known in his life. This is not to
say that the "releasing" methods of Janov (1971), Jourard (1968),
Perls (1969), Reich (1949), Schutz (1967), and others do not work;
for in some respects they do. But it is to point out that there are
more ways than one of skinning a cat, and that explanatory, teaching, and rational methods of discourse may not only "open up" many

individuals within a short period of time, but

may

also give

them

68

H.

methods and ideas with which

to

JON GEIS, PH.D.

work against many of

their

most

self-sabotaging emotions.
Dr. Geis briefly shows Robert G., in response T^^^, how to zero
on any irrational idea, such as the notion that he is a worthless
individual, and to dispute and challenge it, especially by asking himself, ''Where is the evidence that it's true?" and how to challenge
his own catastrophizing by asking himself, when something really
goes wrong in his life, "What is so terrible about that?" In subsequent sessions, of course, he is prepared to present more details
about these RET challenging methods.
4.

in

5.

In typical

RET

procedure. Dr. Geis sees that Robert gets a

homework assignment. He induces Robert to give himself

this assignment to talk to the girl whom he has previously mentionedand to try to make a date with her. If the client had not
suggested this homework assignment himself, the therapist would
specific

it. The object

something that he
has hitherto been afraid to do, and either to help him overcome
his anxiety about it in short order or else to help him zero in on
the concrete beliefs he is telling himself to create and maintain

have in
is

all

probability suggested something similar to

to get the client, as soon as possible, to do

this anxiety.

been replete with

middle
of
the
session onward.
RET techniques, especially from the
Once Dr. Geis knows enough about Robert, he swiftly focuses on
what he thinks are the client's central problems and philosophies,
tries to get him to understand them and do some counter-conditioning thinking about them, and assigns him some in vivo desensitizing
homework to help him tackle them.
All told, this lengthy session with Robert G. has

SECOND SESSION
how

did things go this week?

T^:

Well,

C^:

All mixed.

T^:

We

C^:

trying
There were

tried

what you

said,

and

guess there were

results.

T^:
C^':

T^:

don't expect a 100 percent or even 2 percent it

results.

What happened?
I don't know where to start
Well, we had the girl, and we had

the school

is

the

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

C^:

Yes,

we had

one thing,

69

the girl and the school problems. (Laughs) Well,

I

think

had better

tell

you

this first.

tried

same day that I saw you

went
home
and
I
thought and I sank into
Saturday I

thinking, as a matter of fact, the

last

one of

my moods

You sank

yourself into one of your moods.

sank myself, and

started writing, and

and
I wanted to show it to you. I'll read it to you. I wanted to
show it to you on Monday. I started copying notes from what
you were saying.

'pii

On

it is

ridiculous;

the lecture?

Yes,

was

interested.

Did you get anything out of it, by the way?

Yes, I liked it very much. I admire how you just keep talking.
Reason is coming out of it; it is not just blah, blah, blahThere is no reason at all why some day you can't do that.
don't know why I persist in saying to myself, "Gee, I will
never get that high."
Because you have been doing that for about seventeen years,
I

T17.

and you don't get

be right-handed
years. (Laughs)
CIS:

C20:

C22:

rid of a habit like that overnight.

You

can't

when you have been left-handed

all

these

People-

Okay, now you are going to laugh. You

will

probably jump

up and hit the ceiling

That is your assumptionYes, and because I think what I just said is ridiculous, I am
sinking into a depressing mood. (Reads): 'The radio is playing
a concert; there is a feeling of going around in circles, no
beginning, no ending. This is the way I feel. And I am constantly trying to make up my mind to do something, but
I can't make up my mind. I get up and walk from one end
of the wall to the other. I sit down; there is a desire for action,
and I want to sleep. I am breathing and I am drowning; I
am sleeping and I am awake; I am blind and I can see, night
and day. This is the way I feel."
Hm, hm. Yes.
(Reads): "There is a vision, but it has no meaning. There are
a million words, which are behind a concrete wall which want
to be free, which want to express their meaning, which want

'70

H.

to express

my

feeling, but they cannot do so.

T23:

am deaf.
Now what

C^^:

No, the next day,

JON GEIS, PH.D.

speak, but

listen,

but

am dumb."

did you do with all that when you put it down?

Did you challenge it at all, or ask yourself questions about

it?

this?
T^^:

No, what

with

read

can't interpret

it,

and

it

said,

"What

mean, when

it

was going

on, did

just let

down?

flow

T^^:

Remember, when we talked about being aware

it

is all

you do anything

or just sit on the floor and write this stuff

C26:

And

the hell

it."

of this stuff.

a good step toward being aware of it by

asking yourself questions about it. Did you do any of that try
I

think this

is

any of that?
C28:

Yeah,
is it?

said,

What

''What
is it I

is

this?

can't interpret

it." I said,

"What

have put down?"

Very actively and directively. Dr. Geis keeps after the client during the first part of this second session. First, he indicates (in response T^) that he doesn't expect Robert G. to achieve anything
like 100 percent results. Then, in response T^, he points out that
the client sank himself into one of his moods rather than, as the
client puts it, he passively sank into a mood. Thirdly, in response
T^', Dr. Geis shows the client that he has become habituated, for

almost the last seventeen years, to thinking and acting in a certain

it will take some amount
of time before he significantly changes. Most importantly, in T^^,
he gets after Robert G. about asking himself questions when he
feels moody, to determine what he is telling himself to create his
moods.
Although the client may seem to be spontaneously talking and
directing the session himself, it is clear that the therapist is actually
leading him into certain specific directions and is making something
out of a good many things that he brings up. In RET, the client's
own materials, particularly his feelings (at point C), are constantly
used; but the therapist does not hesitate to give clear-cut interpretations, reassurances, directions, and so on in regard to these materials.
Moreover, as does Dr. Geis, he keeps actively pushing the client to
bring out certain information, and to change his thinking and action
when they appear to be disadvantageous.
dysfunctional manner, and that therefore

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

'29.

Wait, you said, "I

"Am

am

71

drowning," and the immediate question

drowning?"
I am drowning."
All right, "I am breathing and I am drowning. Am I really
breathing and am I drowning?" And the answer would be,
"I am breathing, but I am not drowning." Because the reality
is that you are not drowning.

would
I

q:vz

be,

said, "I

The

am

really

breathing and

reality?

what we want to bring home.

But that is is the illusion that I am having.

Yes, this

is

You

are going to keep having it until you start questioning

and bringing the reality more and more home.
Yeah, I understand that
Now, what I am saying is, why didn't you question it a little
bit? This is what we want you to start doing. If you remember,
in the lecture I talked a lot about the questions that you can
it

ask yourself:

evidence of

all

"What

is

so terrible about that?

What

is

the

that?" Yes, what's the evidence for your drown-

ing?
Q38

didn't establish

You
No,

any evidence, but

thought

just

didn't try to think, did you?

I

didn't try questioning that hard.

Did you try a

Q42

guess

threw

it

'J'43.

little bit?

tried a little bit,

away.

threw

it

and

thought

it

was

ridiculous.

on the desk

some of these ideas but you are

not ridiculous. And what you were thinking, when you thought
it was ridiculous, is, "This ridiculous stuff means that / am
do think

it is

ridiculous,

a shit-head or a ridiculous guy."

'44.

Yeah, going back to turning myself into a polycratic Mar-

tian
As we saw

last

week, there's no such thing as a ridiculous

person. People do act ridiculously sometimes, and

ideas are clearly "nutty" ideas, and so are
ideas "nutty" at times.

You

some

some other

of your

people's

are not a "nutty" guy.

In responses T^^ and T^^ Dr. Geis again takes the opportunity
to indicate that although the client has
is

some

ridiculous ideas, he

not ridiculous; and that although people's ideas are often "nutty,"

72

H.

they are not ''nutty" guys. This

is

JON GEIS, PH.D.

stalndard procedure in

RET:

to

help the client, time and again, to differentiate between his behavior's not being exemplary and his being a bad person. Because human

beings seem to be strongly predisposed to rate themselves along

with their behavior, the therapist keeps showing them how to do
otherwise.

T-*^:

What should
What do you

Q48.

Well,

C^^:

try listening to myself.

especially last
T^^:

do?

think you should do?

I

think

did a lot of

that

night

In getting a lot of material, do you mean, or did something

happen

last

week?

Well, especially last

night I went

to the Institute;

met a

girlthe

Is this

Q52

Marcia.

'J<53

So

C54

we

girl?

What's her name?

can talk about her and

mix her up with the other

There are no other girls.
There may beThere are none
There

Q5S

same

may

Oh, later

be later

on but

will

know. Yeah. So we won't

girls.

on

this is the present. Well,

will start

from

week. It was on a Friday last either Sunday or Monday

night maybe it was Saturday I called her up and I asked
her if I could see her on Tuesday because Tuesday was no
school. And she explained to me that she was in the midst
of a huge program. She was studying a lot. She had which
I do not know anything about a "sweet sixteen" partywhatever that means. I never
last

imagine she has turned sixteen

is what I imagine also. I don't know anything about
parties. And she is a business manager for a paper in Queens
and a school paper, and she is having a meeting and all that.
I understood all this, and I told her that I understood this.
I said, ''Anytime during the week, if you want to go out to
a movie, a theater, anything you want to see, let's do something." And she said that she would really like to oblige me,

T^^:

C^^:

Yes, that

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

73

but she does not enjoy going out, and

really, to go out. She says she tried

does not want to do

'61.

It

could be true or

it

is

it

not her policy,

and she

before,

really

it.

it

could be untrue; there are two possi-

bilities'62.

Yes. All right,

made

meet her

a deal to

on Friday. She would go along with

'p63.

'65.

at the Institute

this.

Did you have to persuade her, or did she readily agree?

She did readily agree that I would meet her at the Institute
on Friday.

Maybe she
then. This

is

may

not too disinterested she

may

be interested

be true that she doesn't like going out. She's

had
showed me her

She's

verification that she

is

a business

man-

ager
In other words, she

No,

is

not trying to get rid of you particularly.

have a feehng that she

honest to goodness, the truth

It

is

not trying to do that.

that

am more

And

involved with

with that particular individual-

her,
^^69.

is

sounds

like

you

are.

Yeah, I just never had the chance to get involved with another
person this deeply. It certainly is not deep
T71.

That's right. It certainly

c 72.

Yes

'73.

better than being at home, since

is

you do have a date with her.

it seems like I never could get to her. So she said that
she had a party, and she goes out with her own friends. Not
too often, but she usually goes with much closer friends.
But you were still persistent at getting her to go out with

you
'74.

Yeah, but she

still

persists in saying that she doesn't

too much. Once in a while, with a friend.

can't

be your friend?"

that. "I

And

am

your friend,"

she said, "I would like

And

said, "Well,

good to say,
said. "Can't I be your friend?"
to oblige you," and so we made

don't
I

know

go out

if

that

is

a date at the Institute.

'p75

It's

better than nothing.

Yes thank
'p77

God!

What do you mean, "Thank God,"

fall?

There you

go

like the

world

is

going to

74

H.

C^^:

Am

T^^:

No, your assumption

are.

that the world

fall if

'80.

(^82

JON GEIS, PH.D.

turning colors?

That is part of your nuttiness,

you don't get this girlSo I hung up the phone. This was a phone on the street. I
wouldn't dream of telling my mother who I am calling; I do
not want her to know anyway. And I just started walking
in one direction. I walked for about ten blocks before I knew
where I was ending up
You were walking with her?
I was walking alone. She was at home.
is

is you
going to

After you made the appointment at the Institute?

(^84

Yes.

^85

You

Q86

Yes-

'J'87

But, you didn't give up. "I

C88

stuck in

though

had that point

in

mind.

am
I

sorry

got

called"

my two

bits in, but

so bad because she said that she wouldn't

I

really felt, "Oh, boy, the world

T89:

want to go out with me"

"That would be horrible-"

(^90.

"She really doesn't

like

is

going

me. She would

want

up she

to

felt

go

out.

really doesn't

like to oblige

me

with

words keep on going around"

T^^:

Condescending on her part. "I will take care of you a little

bit, help you a little bit." Not as if she is intrinsically interested in going out with you?

C^^:

Yes,

understand, that part of condescending. Well,

started

walking in one direction for about ten blocks. I looked at the

moon. It was night, and it was cold, and I didn't feel the
cold. I started walking back home to sleep, went to sleep.
Couldn't sleep half the night because "She doesn't like me.
Maybe I was rude." In fact, I apologized to her on the phone.
I said, "If I in any way make you feel silly, or have insulted
you in any way" And she said "Nothing of the sort."

The remainder of the second session continues in much the same

manner as this first part, with steady attempts by Dr. Geis to induce
Robert G. to give up his catastrophizing, self-condemning thinking
and to take more chances at doing what he would really like to

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

do

in life.

The

third, fourth,

and

75

fifth sessions

continue in

much

the same vein. These sessions seem to have paid off quite well, since
in the sixth session the client shows some distinct progress.

SIXTH SESSION
T^:

How're things going?

different ways. (Laughs) Well it's always hard to
start. For instance, I know one thing is for sure, I have a

Many

lot of confidence.

T^:

Confidence?

jumping up and sputtering mad in the

classroom and telling everybody what I'm thinking, and I
don't care whether they like it or not. I just want to get
my two cents in.
Are you physically asserting yourself, or are you doing that
plus being angry, or what?
No. Just asserting myself, even deliberately, whatever that
Yeah.

find myself

means. (Laughs)
T7

Um-hm. Not being angry

or anything like that?

No. Sometimes.
'p9

The reason
up and say

say that

things,

it

get you into trouble.

your piece and

it's

is

On

What do you
C12

people

really not

if

it

jump
could

you're just speaking

going to go against you except

like

it,

like

it.

well,

then

say, for

usually

jump up

add more information

else, or sometimes
we go off on a tangent. And I'm never afraid to speak up,
somehow. (Laughs)
What would you say that before you would have been afraid
the conversation. So sometimes

to the class, or

don't agree with

What

somebody

to say?
'14.

when

example?
in my hygiene class. I don't like hygiene anyway. I get 97s and 98s in the subject, and I don't
even look in the book, and it's the only good thing about

Well,

it is

'13.

the other hand,

some people may not

Yeah. A lot of them don't
that

CIO

because sometimes

could be self-defeating, because

thought. Right off the dot.

76
15.

H.

Um-hm. Like what? What's an example

JON GEIS, PH.D.

of something you said

yesterday, or the day before, or Friday, last Thursday, some-

thing like that?

16.

we were talking about narcotics addiction,

and the teacher and everybody raised their hands asked,

Well, just today

''What

narcotics addiction?

is

How

does

it

And

affect us?"

everybody seemed to jump up and say that it had a physiological effect on us; and they kept saying the body needs it
affects the body, and nobody looked at the mind, for crying

And

out loud.

said

thought

it

was a psychological

mostly, a great deal. Because, of course,

the needle or what do you

call

it

it's

effect

hard to get on

however

they

call

it

become a junky. And suddenly you stop and say, "I'm not
going to take any more, 'cause it's going to affect the mind
one way or another." And it does affect the mind, I think the
need for

it.

It is

not only physiological, but psychological.

Ti^:

So you said

C18:

Yeah.

T^^:

And you would have been

C^^:

Yes, because

it?

T^i;

afraid before, you think

would have thought that I wouldn't know what
I was talking about, and to a certain extent I'm not sure
I know. Well, I do.
It's not horrible, even if you don't know.

C22:

Yes,

T^^:
C^^:

So you've got much more confidence. Good!

However that's going to help. I don't know.

^25.

Well, yes, you do.

C^^:

it's

not horrible. Right!

just don't see confidence. It's important to me,

but

it's

growing

to

thing else out of

have

less

Out of what?

Q28.

Well, not out of confidence.

'29.

to get

more

suppose;

want some-

it.

T2'^:

me

importance to me.

hope these sessions are helping

different aspects of reality; looking at reality

and picking out what I'm most interested in. It's the critical
thinking and picking out of phrases of irrationality. That's
what I'm most interested in.
Well, I would put confidence in this kind of framework. I'd
say that confidence what most people call confidence is
feeling so good that you're not so much afraid any more. Of

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

77

what you're saying; but

course, that's not exactly

want

to

give you a couple of other ways to think about what most

people think confidence

and

feel better

"I can only buckle

is:

and cover up the fear

confidence includes, in the

first place,

up

my

really feel."

courage
I

think

a realistic appraisal

of your abilities that are involved in a situation; secondly,

a willingness to take a leap and be'involved with those abilities

in a situation, because you're not

fear-inducing bullshit, like

C^:

"What

T^^:

Right!

going to give yourself any

''oh, it will

be terrible"

if I fail?"

You know, a lot of people can have conjump over the moon; but they can't.
Or they think they know exactly what this topic is all about,
It's realistic.

fidence that they could

but they really

you

may

may

not know. Like you partly suggested,

not know. But what's so important are two things:

knowing that

realistically

there's

no crime

ondly, not inducing fear in yourself.

in speaking; sec-

And when

you're not

you can go right ahead and say what you think. And
when you feel wrong, you learn why you're wrong, if you
check up on it. If you're right, so much the better. That will
afraid,

give you some pluses in somebody's book.

Q32.

Well,

what

Because

was most afraid

always thought,

anything."

And

of before

''Gee,

don't

was speaking out.

too much about

know

always said to myself, "So

won't say a

word. Gee, I'm not certain on this anyway." Only in

glish class like last time

spoke up.

had

Somehow

when

wasn't seeing

my

you I

spoke up in English, because

En-

really

guess

you know, read compositions in front of the

was the only time I spoke up before, in the
past. I've always had the idea that I didn't know too much,
or enough, or average about anything, or better. Yet I always
I

to,

classroom. That

T^^:

34.

knew a little bit above average about anything.

You know we have lots of graduate students, people twice
your age and more, who are the same way when you get
them in a class situation.
thought about it, and I said to myself, "Of course,
you don't know 100 percent about this subject about hygiene.

I've actually

Or better

yet,

you don't know 100 percent of this book. You

it, and you don't care. You don't

don't know^ 100 percent of

78

JON GEIS, PH.D.

H.

have to knock yourself about it." Let's take a different subject,

like medicine. There must be a hell of a lot of medical students
who have finished college and finished graduate school, medi-

and what

do you call it? internship; and they

work and trying to get their Ph.D.'s. "And
there's got to be some kind of doubt, no matter what man
is in what field," I've said to myself; "he has to have some
cal school,

are doing graduate

doubt, about his

T^^:

Of

course, the fact

that he doesn't
C^^:

field,

that he doesn't

know something."

not whether he has some doubt, but

is

know everything

in his field.

Yes. There's always something new, and there's always some-

how good you

thing that no matter

are,

T37:

Right.

C^^:

And

T^^:

Only knowing 99 percent or 73 percent.

to

see, I'm

know

you don't know.

over here floundering in the pool like a

Why

fish.

should you have

100 percent anyway? Or 90 percent or 80, just to

speak out?
C^^:

That's true. Nothing

me from

trying to

is

my way nothing

in

T'*^:

But before you didn't just

C^'^:

It

was most

like

ridiculous before.

worried about

it.

And

anything about

as

it,

to you needed

if I

know enough" is
tell

it,

and

and worried; and instead

and didn't do
was doing something in worrying.
it,

just worried

it's

true. That's the

way

mentioned "I

people tend to behave. But the notion you

didn't

to.

always looked at

Well, you were like most people,

graduate students

going to stop

just worried

of doing something about

^43.

is

know more.

the same notion that a lot of our

themselves.

And when

talk with them,

what they tell me, "I don't know enough to contribute,"

which, in most instances, covers the idea and is the screen
this is

for the basic fear that they are going to expose themself,

and that would be

horrible.

Not that they

just do not

know

enough.

Yeah!

C44:

Bullshit!

T^^:

Yes. But, look, a lot of people don't

don't

mind speaking

at

all.

say, "I don't

know enough."

ing enough,

it's

know enough, and they

But others hang

in the

back and

Well, the problem isn't not know-

what they think about not knowing enough.

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

"If

79

Vm

speak and they don't see, then

son of a bitch, or something like that.

really a worthless

And

that would be

horrible!"

The

client

obviously doing quite well, especially in asserting

is

wants

make

is being
For one of the main goals
of RET is to help people differentiate between actively going after
what they want to get out of life and trying to conquer others or
do them in. But Robert G. really seems to be saying what he wants
and holding his own ground, in the classroom illustration he gives
(in C^), and not mainly to be trying to lord it over others.
The therapist, in T^ and T^^, takes the opportunity again to show
the client that he doesn't have to do well in order to speak up. In
much of this present session, the boy is trying to indicate that having
confidence in oneself, through knowing what to do and doing it,
is the great goal one should seek in life. But Dr. Geis keeps gently
but firmly contending that this is all very well, but that it merely

himself; but Dr. Geis

to

sure that he really

assertive rather than, in addition, hostile.

constitutes achievement-confidence or work-confidence rather than

self-confidence. Self-confidence (or self-acceptance)

the individual
or not he

C^^:

is

is

is

gained when

willing to take risks and assert himself whether

pretty sure that he

is

going to succeed

made me feel so good

home almost intoxicated, I felt so

Gee, you

last

(Ellis, 1962).

week. (Laughs)

good.

sat

down and

went

started

used the method they taught me at the Memory

where you draw a circle. For anything you want
to recall, you draw a circle and put the most important thing
you want into the circle. And you draw rays like the sun,
and you put on those rays various facts; and one fact strangely
enough leads to another. They call that "psychological association" at the Institute. It's just a tendency for one thing to
lead to another. And I started I almost recalled every word
we that passed through us last week. I wrote it down, something like two thousand words; some of my own I stuck in,
v/riting.

Institute

but

tried to recall as

much

as

could.

got about three

sheets packed with words.

T^'':

What made you

C^^:

Well, especially

feel so

good

last

week?

when you made reference to the taffy I

thought I needed that really cleared the way a lot. If it didn't

80

H.

JON GEIS, PH.D.

clear the irrational thoughts 100 percent away,

least 85 or 90 percent of
T^^:
C^^:

it

cleared at

them away.

How do you mean?

How I was a little baby,
.

and I always wanted something; and

would cry. I wouldn't look at reality and
say to myself, "All right, it's hard to get. Why should I stay
here and sulk, when I could be out and trying to get it." Before
I was a little baby; and I cried if I didn't get what I thought
if I

didn't get

it,

needed.

own way, you cried. Not necessarily with tears, but

you pounded your fists on the floor, psychologically.

T^^:

In your

C^2:

Yes.

T53.

Which

is really,

Saying, "Oh,

get what

in

how

summing
horrible

it

it's

up, a protest against reality.

this

way!

It's horrible. I

can't

want!" Rather than trying to get what you want

and accepting the grim reality that's going on.
I

The statement made by Dr. Geis in the previous session, which

apparently was taken to heart by Robert G. and proved to be very
helpful to him, was a point that is commonly made in RET: namely,
that most of the things that people say they absolutely must have,
or need are really pieces of taffy that they want; and that when
they are "terribly frustrated" and upset about this frustration, they
are like little babies who are crying for their taffy. In using this
argument, and showing the client that he practically never really
needs what he wants, RET might be called the original "Reality
Therapy" for many years before William Glasser (1965) brought
out his first writings on reality therapy, rational-emotive practi-

damn well better stop wailing and whining about what they cannot have in life and would
better accept reality, no matter how grim it may be. This, of course,
was also emphasized many years previously by Epictetus (Hadas,
1964), Alfred Adler (1927, 1929, 1931), and Bertrand Russell (1950).
Another thing that has apparently helped the client appreciably
(as he indicates in response C^^) is that he has not only listened
carefully to the therapist and gone to hear him talk outside of therapy, but has also spontaneously done his own written homework
assignments by writing down the gist of the helpful material he
has thereby been learning and going over his written material sev-

tioners were showing clients that they'd

Here again is some evidence that bibliotherapy and homework are important parts of psychotherapy, when properly employed.
eral times.

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

C"^^:

down on Sunday, and

81

wrote down something

about no matter what's going to happen, I'm always going
to have to pay the piper. I'm always going to have to confront
problems. I'm going to have to produce solutions, no matter

Well,

sat

I'm always going to have to do

no matter what; and it's the most ridiculous thing in the world to worry about how I'm going to make
out on the next test. If I fail, I'm going to be horrible, and
I'll be worthless. And anxiety is almost is actually one obstacle in the path, which obstructs the way I want to get to

what.

If

something

^55.

C^^:

T^^:

C^^:

or

fail

if I don't,

like that,

my

goal. In other words, there is the goal

and

in

and there is me,

between me and the goal are fear, worry, and anxiety.
Which you have been creating for yourself.
Yes. Irrationally. And in creating these obstacles, I've wasted
a lot of energy, and by the time I get through that I hack
away from that to get at the goal, I'm all exhausted. And
that's how I came here. Remember I said I had a lot of pressure, and I felt just you know. I got there I got to the 93
average, but I felt like hell, because I had to weigh all this.
And even after you get through all your craziness and finally
reach the goal, you're sort of pooped out, and it hardly makes
it worthwhile anymore. If you had to do that for all the 93s
in your life, you wouldn't live very long.
No (laughing), I don't think so. And I don't know, does it
sound reasonable to you what I'm saying about the obstacles?

159.

Quite.

60.

Because

understand exactly what you're saying.

description of
it's

Yes.

C^^:

And
it

could do

means

a good

it.

a hell of a lot of junk in between what

and the path that

T^i:

It's

have to travel to get what

away with

creating;

all

want

want.

this because, in the first place,

and instead

can save

all

that energy to

That was the real insight

what terms you could say what steps of prog-

travel in that path to the goal.

don't

know

in

ress you could classify

it

in.

don't

know how

to describe

had the thought before, and it seems so logical

so easy; I don't have to break my head trying
to build up mountains of fear and anxiety. And that's what
gets me; I was always building it up, and I can't see that.
it. I

to

just never

me.

And

it's

82

H.

Why was
I

doing that?

telling

creating for myself fear and anxiety and

hardship? And, really,

T^^:

Why was

Yes.

When

was a

people say, "Well,

stuff how can

we

it

change?

often say, ''But

how can

It will

be very

myself why was

all

me

strain on
I

JON GEIS, PH.D.

this

worry and

that way.

get rid of
difficult to

we wonder how you can keep

all

this

change,"
all

that,

more difficult to keep telling yourself all that crap."

Actually, in some ways, it's very easy because you get in
a rut, and you keep going in the same way; and you have,
like, psychological blinders on, and you don't know any other
ideas. Nobody confronts you with different ideas, and you
'cause

it's

don't confront yourself with different ideas.

You never

stop

what you have started to do. You've done a great

deal of it within the last few weeks, which I've started you
off on. Nobody said "Whoa, take a look, ask yourself sensible

to think out

questions. Is

'makes

me

it

really true that failure is so horrible, that

a lousy no-good

never said to yourself, "Is

it

shit?' "

it

Nobody ever

really true?

said, and you

What's the evidence?"

The client's responses, C^ and C^^, and Dr. Geis's follow-up on

them, T^3, show how valuable insight can often be achieved in RET
without the use of classical psychodynamic methods that are supposed to produce this kind of insight, such as free association, probing into the client's past, dream analysis, analysis of the transference
relationship between the therapist and client, and so on. Robert G.
now sees that he has ostensibly wanted certain goals, up to now,
such as success; but instead of spending most of his time and energy
trying to achieve these goals, he has actually utilized them in creatingyes, creating anxiety and various forms of defenses against
this anxiety. Now he sees that "I don't have to break my head trying
to build up mountains of fear and anxiety," and that he can instead
turn to his originally desired achievements.
Dr. Geis correctly points out that these significant insights that

Robert G. is now acquiring mainly stem from the simple fact that
he never before challenged, or even thought of challenging, his anxiety-creating ideas (especially the idea that it would be awful if he
failed). Once the therapist showed him how to do this, he has been
doing quite a bit of such challenging and therefore he is now
achieving a whole chain of important insights.

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

'64.

Well,

maybe

Well,

we know

Q66

Well, then you

^67

Yes. But

it's

to diagnose

what you're trying

that's

trying to find out

why

lots of

know

people

tell

reasons

to get at.

Maybe

you're

themselves these things.

why they

do.

it?

not so important

why

83

why

they begin to do it only

they continue, to do themselves

them what they do, and to show them how not

is what I've been doing with you.

in, to

to do

show

it which

Um.
There are

lots of

very understandable reasons

why

people get

into this kind of a rut.

Curious to
will
'pri.

know what when

it's

going to leave

me how

far

go?

Well, you take the chains off you; then you go as far as your

values and your abilities take you.

But I remember you once

we
T73.

should

know our

said that

limits,

we

should

know our goals;

our capacities.

Well, you should be as realistic as you possibly can about the

world and yourself.

you haven't got a certain aptitude, it's

best to be realistic with yourself and recognize it and focus
on the aptitude that you have got or the things you can get.
If

Otherwise, of course, you decide to take the one chance in

a hundred

And

where you can get something without planning.

often goals including, in particular, vocational goals,

which seem very real to a person your age when getting near
to getting out of high school and planning for college and

forth are unrealistic. You can't begin to make sense of

and define a vocational goal until you have certain kinds of
experiences, until you get older. Some people decide their vocational goals early, some people later. Not until late adolescence do most fellas begin to define theirs pretty clearly. Even
then, it may not be for some time. But it's very desirable
to have goals. It's very desirable to be fully aware of your
own values, to know w^hat you want. But you'll be changing
as you grow older, to some extent, and you can't always know
so

these things fully.

It's

very desirable to

know them

as you can. Hardly necessary, though, to a

74.

Hardly necessary to a happy existence.

as fully

happy existence.

84

T^*^:

H.

It's

not necessary to have firm goals

T^'':

Not necessary.
Not necessary,

C^^:

But

if

T^^:

No.

It

C''^':

you

no. Well,

tell

me.

all

JON GEIS, PH.D.

the time.

Is it

necessary, do you

think? Firm, fixed goals?

Qso.

T^^:

you did, would that bring confidence?

depends on what your goals are. I mean, if you have
goals, you may be shaking yourself up about them; ''Oh God,
will I get there or not?"
Well, supposing you set a group of goals, which you know
are within your aptitude?
All right. You can have two fellas let's say two fellas who

way
both who

are aspiring to medical school, to being a doctor, just the

you at present apparently

clearly set goals.

about
God,

and

it

it

will

is

One

are.

fella is

really full of

be terrible

You have two

fellas,

giving himself a real hard time

what you were

if I fail! I've

before, like ''Oh

got to do this, I've got

to do that," so nervous that he's not studying very well.

The

much more realistic about it and is much more rational in the way he goes
about things, and he doesn't give himself this same kind of
crap. And so he just goes slugging it right along. He is more
other guy has the same fixed goals, but he's

likely to

do a good job getting there, you see, and to use

all

got all the aptitude and intelligence and

energy he's got in getting to the goal, because he's not going
to be so nervous and so tense and worry so much and focus
on irrelevant things. So it's not really the goals in themselves.
Although in one way, knowing a goal fairly clearly is good
for very nervous people. If one knows the goal one's got a
goal and got a fix on it maybe he's going to be a little less

the potential he's

you know where the enemy's coming from,

little less nervous than if you don't know
where they're coming from. But those are guys who are some-

nervous. Like,

if

you're going to be a

(^82.

what upset and irrational in the first place.

What's always impressed me when I've looked on a man, a
middle-aged person or an old person who's been successful
or is successful in life he has a big company or somethinghe's successful what always strikes me is the way
that he the confidence he has in himself. He's sort of he
knows what he's doing all the time almost. At least, he seems

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

85

he knows what he's doing. Even that is important, and

seems that he's been through all this am I right? Has he
been through all this crap that I've been going through?
No. A lot of these guys can function very well in their jobs.
Let's take a job for example could be at home or somewhere
else, but most often it's the job. For example, the high financiers, Wall Street. I don't know any personally that I can think
of offhand, but I can bet that a lot of them are pretty neurotic
guys in some ways, and a lot of them have lousy home lives
and get depressed fairly often. But they can function on the
job because they have a clear sense of what they're doing.
For them the job is an adaptation and a way of shutting out
and hammering away a lot of the anxieties they create in
other ways. You see? So it depends upon the adaptation. I
would say a person is going to do best and function all around
like
it

T^^:

in a good, well-adjusted

way

to the extent that he

is

rid of

his irrational ideas.

C^^:

Most of these guys have learned to get

T^^:

Yes, to some extent some of

rid of these irrational

ideas?

them have had

certain experi-

ences and gradually changed their beliefs as a result of these

experiences. But

some

who

of
kills

them

some of them have some of the nuttiest

still

believe that failure

himself, for example,

when

is

ideas;

horrible the guy

his business collapses.

Other guys have three businesses that collapse, and they say,
"That's the way it goes; I'll try to build another one. And
if I can't build another one, and I'm too old, well, that's just
the way it goes. I wish I had succeeded, but I don't have to.
C^:

I'll try and do the best I can."

But he doesn't give himself hell for

T^:

That's right.

In responses C^^ to T^\ Dr. Geis

is

failing.

giving Robert G. some practical

vocational counseling, but included in this counseling

is

a hardheaded

rational-emotive philosophy. First, he lets Robert know^ that he'd

better be realistic about the goals he chooses, and that he may not
be able to pick adequate vocational choices until he has gained some
more experience. Secondly, he indicates that clear-cut goals are desirable but that even more important is the individual's determi-

86

H.

JON GEIS, PH.D.

nation but not necessity to achieve them. Thirdly, he points out that

many seemingly ''successful" businessmen

have basically irrational attitudes and are covering up their anxieties with their successes
rather than looking at and undermining the belief systems behind
these anxieties. Fourthly, he once more tries to teach Robert that
failure is not catastrophic and that a rational person can go on from
a great failing enterprise either to build another and another or
to philosophically accept the fact that he is no longer able to succeed.
still

Dr. Geis's vocational counseling, in this respect,

way

is

typical of the

that the rational-emotive therapist usually handles practical

He does not hesitate to give information and even advice

about such problems, but he puts them within an RET framework,
so that he is doing much more than that. He is invariably more
interested in the client's basic value systems and how they may
irrationally interfere with his functioning and his happiness than
he is with merely helping him to solve practical vocational, sex,
family, or other problems.
problems.

I've

been doing that

You might
C9()

C^'-^:

along.

haven't failed. I'm still

as well have!

I'm not now, but

And

all

was.

great deal.

would have led you to failure,

not to mention blowing your brains out. Something like that,
that you were plotting around a long time.
Um-hm. (Pause) Come to think of it, I thought of it this
week blowing my brains out. Now, I examined it, and I said,
that's the surer thing that

out of this world.

"It's really

There's

all

It's crazy; it's

just not rational.

the chances in the world. There's a big future ahead,

and no matter what you do, you're still going to be a part

it and something. If you fail or not, you can always try
again." But then but for just three seconds, or five seconds,
I reveled in the idea of suicide. Is that the right word?
You toyed with it because it felt safe?
Yes. Somehow. But then I snapped out of it right away. I
just didn't it seemed rational at first; it seemed glorious.
of

T'*^:

C^^:

Then

thought, ''What the hell

am

thinking about? Let's

forget about that!"

seem glorious?
don't know. It seemed like

T95.

^i^y

C^^':

(jj(j

j^

that's a nice door to open, a door

behind which you don't know what's going to happen.

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

T-^':

Sure you

C^:

Sure

T^^:

Sure, you
out.

Qioo.

87

do. (Pause)

do?

know what's going to happen

You won't be here anymore.

Weii^ of course, yes, but the door which

if

you blow your brains

open which behind

door All right, I know that I won't have to go through

what I have been going through or what I might go through
the

in the future.
T^"^:

You still may be unwilling to put out some of the effort

some of these things. You still may have some of these
[Interrupting) For crying out loud. I'm I'm I'm determined
Yes.

to do

(^102.

to put out the effort! (Sighs)

'pios.

Yes,

bet you are.

up

easily.

see, sometimes people who are sort

same time sometimes they tend to give

You

of determined, at the

don't think this

is

at

all

true of you or likely to

happen. I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that you have
a residual belief.

You

still

believe a

little bit

some

of the things

you used to believe.

want

C^^^:

'pioo.

Weii^

to eradicate

all

those beliefs.

think you can; and

if

you only end up with

That's the

way

You
You make

can't have

of us.

the ball bounces. Just

it all.

got to have
C^*^^^:

Declaration.

T^'^^:

Yes.

it.

like the rest

Because you've got to be

fallible.

demanding that you have no

the way you demanded before you've

all

the

great grades.

same kind

of jazz. So

try your hardest to get rid of as

it

lump

a mistake, Robert,

irrational beliefs, just

It's

be human

percent

of your former beliefs, you're going to just have to

think you ought to really

much

as you can.

And when

gets to the point where you can't get rid of any more, just

do the best you can.

C^o^:

It will

T^''-':

That's right.

be very

little to

Robert G. show^s that he

get rid

still,

of.

from time to time, has very crazy

thoughts, such as suicidal ideas. Dr. Geis is hardly thrown by this

seeming setback and, in fact, insists on discussing it after Robert

seems

to be willing to slough

it off.

He makes two important

points,

88

H.

which are again typical of RET:

(1)

JON GEIS, PH.D.

Robert can easily have two sets

of beliefs simultaneously, a rational and an irrational set. Although

he seems to be becoming more and more rational, he still also believes, at least a little, some of the senseless things he used to believe.
This is not unusual, but is only to be expected. (2) There is no point
in Robert's demanding that he be completely free of irrationalities.
He will always be a fallible human; and, as such, can again be expected to have silly ideas. If he insists on having no irrationalities,
that idea itself is silly and will perfectionistically tend to drive
him into feelings of anxiety. Therefore, he'd better accept himself
with his irrationalities, while at the same time trying to minimize
them.
One of the main difficulties in RET is the client's using the system
perfectionistically and condemning himself for not being perfectly
rational, not improving rapidly enough, still having ''shameful"
symptoms, and so on. Dr. Geis prophylactically tries to counter this
tendency in Robert.

C^^^:

(Laughs) I'm going to miss (laughing) seeing you.

don't get

much to talk to too many people at all like you.

what do you mean? You like me to share your ideas

a chance
'piii.

Well,

C^^'^:

Yes.

or feelings?

To share the ideas and get

rational, educated answers.

mean something which can make me

think. Also,

something

that any street walker would answer, ''Don't bug me."

I

know

wouldn't want to bug you with too

many more

And
prob-

lems, but
^113;

bug me with problems. You ought to stop

is my job. Now, I don't let things outside
me bug me. I bug myself whenever I do. I don't bug myself
very often at all. Patients have twenty problems or one problem, it's all the same. But you'll run into educated people,
if you seek them out and talk with them. But you won't run

Well, you don't

thinking you do. This

into a lot of people

who

share these ideas. Because these ideas

are developed around a psychological framework, and I'm a

psychologist,

and

I've

been around these ideas a fair amount

of time.
C^^^:

That's what fascinates me.

and
fact,

I
I

always

can talk to somebody like that,

wanted I always wanted

was always interested

in

to.

As a matter

the knowledge, and

of

guess

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

89

needed it also real bad. I did. But I'm sorry, I probably won't
need it too much in the future.
Why would you be sorry? You mean because you wouldn't
have someone to talk with like me? Well, that may just be
I

way

the

the ball bounces.

And

I'm sure you could

could seek out people. There are a

number

live.

You

of associations that

are in town, for example, and you could drop in once in a

while, of course, to say hello.

zations

where people gather

these rational interests.

But there are a number of organito share these kinds of interests,

Some

of

of irrational, but they're there to

them [the people] are kind

get more rational.

That's tautological.
^117

Hm?

C118

That's tautological.

QV20

'pi21.

Q122.

Well, you could join the Philosophy Club, for example.

Trying to do so hope so. I can I will somehow. I'll get into
one of those clubs. Not just anything something.
Why don't you start one?
What are you bringing out in me now? (Laughing) My originality,

'pi23.

Well,
in

my

initiative?

was thinking, there may not be anything

like this

your school going on, or with your associates. This

way

for you to get along with

some people

whom

is

one

you would

be interested in talking with.

124.

In

my

school, very

few people it's very hard oh, because

about 80 percent of them that walk around

simian morons
'pi2o.

my

school are like

and

But you don't need 80 percent.

I know I don't. As a matter of

Q126.

Yes,

'pi27.

But it doesn't even have to be a group from your school. There

must be five guys somewhere. And you don't exactly overflow
with friends you could stand a few friends. That's something
you could get working on.
No, I don't have a lot of friends.
You don't have any friends, really, do you? You told me that
the first time we talked.

if I

C128.
^^129.

fact, it

would be good

find people.

Ciso.

No

'pi31.

Close, but never friends.

real friends, in a sense.

90

C^^^:

H.

Not

at

Well, what'll

all.

JON GEIS, PH.D.

do? Look for friends? Try to get

friendly?
^^133.

C134

What

you advise your seventeen-year-old son, Robert?

''Go out and conquer the world." Or I don't know.
That's not helping him very much. Or maybe you don't
know as a father, you don't know.
will

C136.

That's the

^137

Well, you

^138

Well,

'pi39

What

C^^:
C^^^:

C^^^:
^143.

C^^'*:

way
tell

the ball bounces?

me.

could do something about

it.

if you wanted to get an automobile, and you didn't know

where to get it, or you didn't have any money? What would
you do?
Ask someone, that's all.
You'd get in action some way, wouldn't you? What if you
wanted a girl friend?
I really don't know anything about girls.
you wanted to talk with interesting people? What
if you wanted to learn about something? What would you do?
Sit on your can and just moan?
No. I know what to do when I want to learn something.

(Laughs) No,

What

if

^145

Or say

C146

No.

don't

know.

know?
don't

know which one

you're referring

to the

automobile, the friend, or the learning.

T147:

It's all

the same.

C148
^149

It's all

the same. (Pause)

Yes. There're really only two alternatives: to go after

it

not go after it unless you can think of another one.

can't

think of
Q150.

Go out and

try to learn how.

or

it.

Qh^ well you say there are two things;

maybe you think mak-

ing a few more friends would help?

T151.

Well,

seriously think that, in the first place, friends are

enjoyable for

many

people.

them they

Q152.

Well,

T^'^^:

Secondly, you've got

consider

experience at

this,

to you

and

take up a

lot of time.

haven't got a

this is

an error

in

that you could stand to know, particularly

work with people

to

lot of practice or

your personality
if

you're going to

in the future be a doctor. You're going

have to learn about how you're going to make friends how

But you're entitled to be friendless

to have friends sometimes.

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

and

to be

91

by yourself. There's no law says you have

to.

I'm

maximum out
life if we have

thinking of Robert as just a guy getting the

of

And we

life.

can often get more out of

some friends than

if w^e

don't have friends.

been a loner

ble principle, but you've

so

it's

an area you can try out

in

any

to eat octopus or squid either, but if

may

it

case.

not an

infalli-

life, I

gather,

You

someone

be enjoyable," you kind of ow^e

least give

It's

your

all

it

don't have

says, "Well,

to yourself to at

a try and see w^hat's going on with octopus or

it

squid, unless you're prejudiced to begin with.

Prejudiced?
Yes, against squid.

And octopus?
And you told me

you'd like to have some friends besides.

Yes. Did I?
Yes.
QIGO

I'm trapped on

You

all

sides, ain't I?

don't really have to be. I'm not raising

have to

be.

(-162

Oh, I'm not worried about

'pi63

Yes, that's good.

C164

Well,
I'll

'pi65

^166

because you

it

(1), if I

have friends,

get more out of

do to get friends?

it.

it

will help

life. (2), I
(4),

That's good, isn't

develop

it?

my

personality.

don't have friends.

Go out and make

(Laughs)

(3),

What'll

friends.

Not bad.
It's

it's hard to think of.

from w^hat you told your son, Robert,
don't know, Son."

not a masterpiece of deduction, but

That's a

little

different

a few minutes ago. "I

C168.

(Silence)

'pieg.

Now, you've

really got to distinguish betw^een know^ing

you might do and having to do

it.

You

what

don't have to do any-

and
what the options are.
Yes. That's what I like, to think things out. I've been intending
to do a lot more of that. (Pause) I'll alw^ays remember what
you said during the lecture, "What distinguishes man from
thing, you know% but

it's

real useful to think things out

see

'170.

the animal
to recognize

is

his ability to utilize symbols, to put together,

and remember symbols." And I started thinking

I suppose the more intelligent the person is.

about that, and

92

H.

JON GEIS, PH.D.

remembering symbols and recognizing and putting them together and using them.

the more ability he has of

It's

(2;i72.

\Yell,

T^^^:

definitions of intelligence, yes.

what I want to say is too crude.

How do I attempt at becoming more, more adroit at utilizing
symbols and remembering and then trying to you know, I
don't know if this is going to help. Is it
(Inaudible) SL book to use symbols to think more clearly and
to clear up our speech and thinking to the point where we're
most efficient and clear and concise.
I

don't

don't know. It seems

know

C^^^:

Ti'-^:

Well, you

C^^^:

Go out and
That's

177.

common

one of the

T^^^:

And

if

tell

all I

there's a straightforward answer.

me. Would you?

think.

Of course, read and try to well,

can think

of.

think.

Think.

Be very sensitive, and

and be very aware of what other people are saying
and the way you're using words and the logic involved. Yes,
work on this. I used to carry around a vocabulary-builder book
when I was your age. I never worked through the whole thing,
but I worked through part of it, and to some extent it helped.
I paid attention to the use of words, and I tried writing for
a spell, and other sorts of things.
Yes. I'm doing the same thing. I have one hundred different
kinds of vocabulary books at home, and I have a scholarship
class where we're studying words and I guess
Yes. You seem to have a pretty good vocabulary.
That comes, as a matter of fact that reminds me of the
mathematical part. I'm not good about that. I'm going to do
something about that this summer. I'm going to improve myself by getting into a mathematical course or something like
try to develop your use of words.

try to listen

178.

T^"^:
Q180.

that on the mathematical part. If

average on the

SAT

could score highly, at least

[Scholastic Aptitude Test], the official

SAT. The PSAT was on Saturday. And a funny thing happened when I took the PSAT. I looked at it, and a verbal
part came first, and the mathematical part came second; I
looked at the verbal part, and I was going to start on the
verbal part I know I'm good at the verbal. I knew I was
good, because I just know; and I don't know how to describe
it, but when I took it, I was a little nervous. And I was trying

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

down

to beat

the nervousness, and

nervous now?

Fm

93

asked myself,

"Why am

But there seemed always

little
of
bit
of
fear. But I got through
a
to be gaps gaps
with it, I finished the verbal part. But when I got to the
mathematical part, something funny happened. I said to myself, "Well, gee, I'm not good at math, so I won't beat myself.
I'll really take it easy." And I started doing the math, and
I saw I was doing the problems mentally, and I wasn't even
bothering figuring out the problems on paper, with paper and
pencil, and it was so easy at first, I just had eradicated any
I

good at

this."

fear or anxiety about math.

T^^^:

You

didn't over-focus on

as

came.

C^^^:

Yes, and

it

found

it

You

to begin with.

just took

it

was doing problems naturally; and I looked

answer just common sense
the answer. I just took it, 'cause, "So what
I

at the problems, and, gee, that

tells

you that's

if I fail, if I
T^^-^:

get a 200?" 200

Putting this in a very tactful

is

the lowest mark.

way and this

is

common

a very

problem, Robert people screw themselves up on exams because they focus too

much on how

than on what they're doing.

well they're doing, rather

And you

what you were doing, because you

how well you were doing.
knew.

here were focusing on

didn't need to focus on

C^^"*:

Because

T185:

Well, also, you said

"What

orientation, "Oh,

not a horrible thing

wasn't doing very well at

it's

C^^^:

But on the verbal

T^^^:

And what would you

Q188.

Weii^

part,

the hell!"

where

knew

You had
if I

the general

should

was going

fail."

to do good,

also got a little nervous.

was trying

say you were telling yourself then?

really

hard really

tiontell myself, "All right, so what

this test. This test isn't
^^189.

first.

trying hard to quesif I

don't do well on

going to count anyway."

Yes. But that implies that you were trying to challenge

what

kind of assumption, though?

remember the assumption.

can't

C^^^^:

^191;

Well,

if

you're saying to yourself, "Look, Robert,

count too much, don't worry about

C^^'^:

"Gee,

know

this one.

it

doesn't

it."

Oh God, come back

the next one, and the next, but I'm

still

to me!

I'll

go to

worried about this

94

one here.

What am

so what. If
I

Ti^^:

was

"Oh,

get
C^^^:

T^^-^:

JON GEIS, PH.D.

H.

worried for? Hell,

come back

can't

to

it,

I'll

come back

to

it,

what?" That's what

so

telling myself.
will

it
it!

be horrible

need to get

can't get

if I

And

it!

oh, I've got to

it!"

know I didn't get every one of them.

So what's so horrible about this one?
Just a little worry never hurt anybody. Yes, but you apparently
needed to do well on everything, and you were probably not
Yes. In the

first place, I

challenging this assumption.

Q\96.

Yes.

^197.

Well, don't stop trying to do well, and desiring

it.

tried to do well on everything.

Striving

Needing

is fine.

to do well

is,

preferring

it,

of course, a different

color.

maybe

was fearing that

(^198.

Qj.

^^199.

Yes, but the fear

Q200.

Um-hm. Then, was

T201:

''Oh,

my

wouldn't do well.

related to the need.

is
I

really saying that

needed to do well?

God! I've got to do well! I've got to get

it!"

Something

According to your assumption.

focusing more on that than on the material.

like that.
Q202.

j'j^

rp-io.i.

Yes.

Remember about

week

or so ago,

we

talked about your

general orientation. I think it was last week, when you were

going through the week kind of testing yourself. It was my
belief that you had a general orientation, where you made
yourself have the general view where you've got to do this,
you've got to get that, you've got to do that.

Remember? And

would be the same kind of thing.

I said, in a sense, that we do need to pass this, to get ?/'s
in order to get to z's. We do need i/'s to get to 2;'s. And then
I questioned you on that, and you explained. Well, I do need
to do well on this exam in order to get on the next.
it

C^^"*:

'^205.

When

your platoon

is

bedded down for the night

in

enemy

no one has to say to you, "Look, keep an eye out

for the enemy." So you're on guard all the time, and you're
not always saying to yourself, "Oh, my God, I've got to keep
my eye out for the enemy, gotta keep my eye out for the
enemy, gotta keep my eye out for the enemy!" You don't say
territory,

that

all

the

time you may say

it

once in a while to yourself;

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

but

95

your general assumption, and you're watchful. You

same way it would be your assumption that fills

it's

see. In the

you full of tension you got to get this, you gotta do that,
you gotta hurry or else it's going to be horrible. Or maybe,
then, "I gotta get

Now

these.

all

that I'm good,

should be

able to get a lot of these because I'm good. Because

be very nice
lot
(32()(>.

rp2()7.

got

if I

all

these,

it

means

I've

it

would

got to get a

of these!"

(Laughs)

to I do need

got

tically,

but

To get

to

y.

to, in

a sense, looking at

it

realis-

don't need it

That

to get to college or things like that.

is,

we

we have, how y or
z, or whatever the hell we're talking about college, that particular college, that particular high grade isn't so all-important. You can live without it. Then that need becomes an
impersonal thing, and it's not all-important for you. And here,
like I said, you're so much more likely to get it because you
That's what. But

if

can show you, as

give yourself lots less of a hard time, and you crawl out of

a mess.
Q208.

Yes, and
I

^^209.

was

didn't finish

really surprised because

it,

but

Let's say you took the

saw

it

PSAT

was very

was going through.

easy.

What would your

last spring.

Or even five weeks ago, six weeks

came in [for these therapy sessions]?

reaction have been?

before you
(^210.

Um. "What did

Oh boy, I know
Gee,

^^211.

Do you
No,

much
'p213.

do? Gee,

wonder what
it. One

did really bad on

got on the

really

ago,

test.

bugged me.

didn't get that one right."

think you would have performed the same

You might

the test?
C212.

first

think that test,

way on

have; do you think you would have?

if it

were

last spring,

would have been

lower.

were what, did you say?

it was last spring. If I were
would have been much lower,

If it
If
it

'^215

Why?

^216

Because

'^217

Well,

to take the test last spring,

I

think.

had all that junk in my head then, floating around.

how would that have interfered? I'm trying to get you

to spell

it

out.

96

Q218.

T^i^:

H.

JON GEIS, PH.D.

Well, instead of focusing on the material like you said, I'd

have to focus upon the dust particles of irrationality and that

would actually hinder my end results of the test.
Putting it simply, I would say you'd be upsetting yourself
so much you couldn't do so well.

C22:

Right.

T221:

Including focusing on other things.

selves,

When

people upset them-

they focus on what they're upsetting themselves about,

rather than on the material they should be working with.

(Pause)

now?
week? What are you going to do to try
to improve a little bit more or reinforce what you've already
done? This may be a good part of what you'd be doing for
a while now, reinforcing what you have achieved, as far as
thinking clearly and disturbing yourself less. You want to
consolidate and practice and practice some more, and after
a while it'll just be a normal part of you.
what do

focus on

(]222.

Well,

'p223.

Well, what's for this

C^^\

It's

'p225.

Well, in a sense of cementing

an implication that there are more steps to climb.

sort of

and working on the

like

C^'-^^:

maybe

last of

some of these things you learned

them and working on new areas,

the friends, the girls, the fear that's projected in

meeting her, the study habits or whatever.

Study habits. I'm going to get into my midterms next week,
and out of a forty-eight-hour weekend, if I can get twenty
hours of that weekend that's twenty that's close to a whole

school week.
Is it realistic to

C^^^:

'p229.

think

all

C230.

plan to do that? Could you do

it, you think?

done twelve hours, and
I don't think I killed myself. So I know it's the midterms
that's important so what if I fail one? that's not going to
be horrible. Why should I worry about it when I have a weekend? If I can, I'll try and put as many hours as I can.
jjq^ about this week, up until that time? Are you studying

T227:

can do

it.

In a

weekend

I've

along?

Well,

it is

next week.

T^'^i:

A week

Q232.

Yes. I'm going to have a test Thursday in English, and

from now? Are you studying

this

week?
I

have

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

a few bits of
ril

^234.

work

Oh

yes.

still

doing a

homework

on the midterms.

better, because

now

want

to put

or what.

^238.

No,

don't

'^239.

You mean

want

to put

to

little.

So that

never do too well

very grand on the

never do too

want

it off,

in

think they're going

week very

to pitch in more.

Well, then do you

^242

chemistry,

studying during the week

for this

always come

but on the midterms

much

lot of

go along, normal studying.

Nearly all homework, of course.

me more time

gives

Q240.

my

prefer to reinforce a few facts here and there.

to consider the

'p241.

study

Yes, that's your time to go over a lot of these factors and

as you

^^237.

and

So you don't have to leave all your studying for the weekend?
Yes, I'll try to get some in the week. Mostly the weekend

things. You're
'236.

to do,

out.

it

reviewing;
']^235.

homework

97

well.

Now

finals,

should do

have a plan of action.

come

on Saturday or do you

in

it off.

you'd rather come in Saturday than a

week

later,

something like that.

I don't know. I guess you've been seeing me too much anyway.
Well, if you think I could be helpful to you if you come Saturday, come on in as far as I'm concerned.
I'll take a chance and miss a week.

'p243

All right.

^244

See what the outcome

'p245

Then

I'll

see you a

will be.

week from

this

coming Saturday 12:00.

In the closing section of this sixth session, several things occur

that are again typical of the

1.

RET

approach:

In C^^ and C^^^, Robert G. indicates that he realizes that he

getting better and that the sessions with Dr. Geis will soon be
He knows that he is going to miss seeing the therapistnot because he merely likes him, loves him, or finds him a
substitute father, but because he greatly enjoys talking with him
is

at an end.

and ideologically. This could, of course, be interpreted,

psychodynamic terms, as his really being attached to the therapist
emotionally; but it is doubtful whether that is true.
intellectually
in

Many

clients are

dures, which

may

somewhat disappointed

include a

minimum

of

in classic

warm

RET

proce-

relating between

98

H.

JON GEIS, PH.D.

therapist and client, because they describe the therapist as being

"cold," ''unemotional," or not sufficiently interested in

But many other

them

per-

such as Robert G., greatly enjoy

RET because they want intellectual stimulation and the adventure
of learning about themselves and others, and find this sort of thing
highly ''emotionally" gratifying. For the first type of client, RET
sonally.

clients,

can be mixed with a warmer approach and it frequently is, especially with clients who are ultra-vulnerable, depressed, and suicidal.
But it generally tends to be much less "warm" than other kinds
of therapeutic relationships, because so much time is spent (as in
Dr. Geis's sessions with Robert G.) in the therapist's teaching, explaining, and giving information to the client that, in spite of his
real interest in helping the client, great gobs of warmth are largely
precluded. Besides, the therapist wants to

the client improves for the right and not the

make pretty sure that

wrong reasons: because

he sees that he can think differently and act more efficiently himself,
and not because he has faith in the therapist's (and, by extension,
other people's) caring for him and thereby ensuring his being
"worthwhile."
2. Although he is not exceptionally loving to Robert G., Dr. Geis
as, for example, in his response, T^^-^ keeps urging him not only
to work at getting over his emotional problems but to enhance his
potential for happy living. For, as I have been emphasizing throughout this book, what we call psychotherapy (or what I prefer to call
emotional education) has at least two main facets: first, the individual's overcoming his severe disturbances by thinking and acting
much more efficiently; and second, his learning how to enjoy himself
more as he has increased time and energy to do so, partly because
he is no longer too absorbed in emoting dysfunctionally.
Dr. Geis, therefore, tries to show Robert that he could widen his
scope of interests and friendships in addition to becoming less
anxious and depressed. Here again, his interest in Robert could be
construed as helping him by relationship methods; and client-centered and relationship theorists, such as Carl Rogers (1961) and C.
H. Patterson (1969), would probably say that his empathic, warm
attitude toward Robert is the essence of the help he is giving the
client. A close reading of the sessions included here, however, will
show that Dr. Geis is far more didactic than empathic which is
exactly what Raskin (1965, 1966) found in a study comparing excerpts
from one of my own psychotherapy sessions to one by Carl Rogers,
and to those of several other psychoanalytically-oriented and experientially-oriented therapists. In fact, the professional raters of

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

99

the therapy protocols whom Dr. Raskin employed in his study wrongly (at least in my estimation) found that I showed relatively little

''unconditional positive regard" for my client probably because

they confused this kind of regard with personal warmth. I think
it would be fairly evident to any unbiased observer that both Dr.
Geis and I, in the protocols included in this volume, show considerable
''unconditional positive regard" for our clients meaning, that we
fully accept them with their failings, do not condemn them no matter
how execrable their behavior is, and consistently try to help them
with their emotional problems and in regard to their achieving their
fuller potentials for personality growth and enjoyment. But we do
so largely through didactic rationality rather than through warm
relating.
3. In response T^^\ Dr. Geis gives Robert a chance to think out
things for himself and to feed back to him some of the things he
is figuring out. There can be a temptation by RET therapists merely

and straight thinking, and not to

check whether he is beginning to do it for himself. Consequently,
the therapist would better stop from time to time and see whether
the client really is thinking differently, and not merely agreeing
too easily and conformingly with what the therapist is saying. RET
would preferably become a kind of Socratic dialogue (Diaz-Guerrera,
1959; Sahakian, 1969) rather than primarily a lecture series.
4. In responses C^^^* and C^^^, Robert shows that he is now able
to use RET principles even when he is under severe pressure, as
when he is taking an examination and may well do poorly on it.
to feed the client information

When

he anti-catastrophizes and accepts the fact that

if

he gets

the worst possible mark, 200, on the math part of the Scholastic
Aptitude Test, he is still not a worm or a no-goodnik, he finds (as

innumerable people do, using this technique) that he is actually able

to do much better than he ever did before on a similar test. This
is exactly the result that Dr. Geis is trying to achieve with his client:
to get him to change his attitude toward failing, at point B (his
belief system) and therefore to be able to return concentratingly
to point A (the activating event, the math test) and to do much
better on it than he would do if he were catastrophizing about failing.
5. In response T^^^, Dr. Geis shows Robert a point that RET therapists frequently make to their clients (Ellis, 1962; Ellis and Harper,
1970): namely, that if they focus on how well they're doing instead
of on what they're doing, they will almost always do poorly on any
kind of test, audition, public speech, or other performance. This is
not merely because they are catastrophizing and potentially putting

100

H.

JON GEIS, PH.D.

themselves down, and thereby creating interfering anxiety. It is

also because of the general psychological phenomenon of interference or diversion. If an individual is partly concerned with (1)
"What steps shall I take to solve this problem?" and partly concerned
with (2) "It will be awful if I fail to solve this problem well!" it
is highly unlikely that he will be as effective in his solutions as
he w^ould be if he were almost entirely concerned with the first
of these steps. For his thinking will be so diverted, diffuse, and
on-off that he will, at best, be spending about half his time and
energy focusing on the problem-solving; and his efficiency will
thereby be importantly reduced. Psychotherapists who look for involved, overcomplex, "psychodynamic" explanations for poor problem-solving usually forget this simple and obvious finding of experimental psychologists. RET practitioners, keeping this point in mind,
frequently point it out to their clients, first, to show these individuals
what is really going on; second, to give them an incentive to change
their thinking-catastrophizing patterns;

and

third, to indicate

how

they can refocus on the essence of the problem to be solved instead

of on

what they

will

be "worth" as

humans

if

they

fail to solve

it.

6. In response T^^-^, Dr. Geis tells Robert that just a little worry
never hurt anybody. More precisely, he could have indicated that
concern the belief that "It would be better if I succeeded, and
therefore I will do my best to work at succeeding" is much different
in its effect on the client's performance than worry or anxiety the
belief, "I have to succeed, because I am a pretty worthless individual
if I don't!" In response T^^-^, Dr. Geis makes this point clearer, where
he indicates that even when an individual is in dangerous territory,
he'd better not keep telling himself, "Oh, my God, I've got to keep
my eye out for the enemy!" for then he will make himself overconcerned, catastrophizing, and hence less effective in protecting him-

self.
7.

In response T^^", Dr. Geis, once again in a typical

RET

fashion,

what he

get the client to be more

his insight that "I had all that junk in my head then,
floating around." One of the main effective aspects of RET is that
it is rarely content with the client's vaguely and imprecisely seeing
what bothers him and what he'd better do about it. For most clients,
in fact, "know" that they are disturbed and, often, precisely how
they are disturbed. They also often "know" what to do about this,
even though they may not actually do anything about it. One of
the chief reasons for their inactivity is that their "knowledge" is

tries to

means by

specific in spelling out

RET WITH A CULTURALLY DEPRIVED TEEN-AGER

101

too general and unoperationally defined. For the individual to

himself, "Yes,

am

neurotic (or phobic)"

neurotic (or phobic);

is

now

almost useless. But

if

tell

must stop being

he can be taught to

and operationally, "I am afraid to

ride in buses because I think I might feel faint and would be viewed
as an ass by the other passengers, and that would be terrible!" he
can then much more concretely see what he'd better do to change
his major belief (that it would be terrible if others thought him
an ass), and thereby interrupt his phobia-producing thinking. In this
respect, RET is one of the most clear-cut, definite systems of showing the client how^ to define his symptoms, what he does to bring
them about, and how he can change them.
After the close of this sixth session, Robert G. had a few^ more
sessions with Dr. Geis and then felt that he was able to get along
without further therapy. His final session occurred more than five
years ago, and in check-up reports he has indicated that he is doing
well in school, is much less perfectionistic than he was, has been
having a reasonably good social life, and in some ways is extending
the personal gains that he was able to make during three months
of psychotherapy. There seems to be little doubt, as a result of his
sessions with Dr. Geis, that he has gained considerably and that
RET can be quite effective with teen-agers from lower socioeconomic
backgrounds and from exceptionally unconstructive home environments. Dr. Geis has also been able to use RET with a good many
other youngsters, many of them black and Puerto Rican, from ghetto
areas and with intellectual and educational attainments considerably
below that of Robert G. Although it would better be frankly admitted
than this method of therapy by no means works as w^ell with this
tell

himself,

much more

clearly

type of individual as it does with middle-class, highly educated ones,

it still seems to be a far better method of choice with the former
than virtually any of the other contemporary modes of psychological
treatm.ent.

CHAPTER

A Young

Male
Who Is Afraid of Becoming
a Fixed Homosexual
ALBERT

The

ELLIS, Ph.D.

client in this case is a twenty-six-year-old

male who

is

a commer-

He

has graduated from college, is doing well at his work,

and has a steady girl friend with whom he has excellent sex and
other relations. Nonetheless, he is terribly afraid of becoming a
homosexual and is obsessed with the idea that he may turn into
one. He is somewhat typical of many males who have little or no
real homosexual urges but are so afraid that they may become exclusive or 'Veal" homosexuals and that they might thereby lose all their
"masculinity" that they become seriously disturbed and think incessantly about the great ''danger" that faces them. They usually have
a very low estimation of themselves and, after awhile, are hardly
able to function in any other aspect of their lives.
cial artist.

FIRST SESSION

T'':

What's the main thing that's bothering you?

I have a fear of turning homosexual a real fear of it!
A fear of becoming sl homosexual?
Yeah.
Because 'Hf I became a homosexual," what?
I don't know. It really gets me down. It gets me to a point
where I'm doubting every day. I do doubt everything, anyway.
Yes. But let's get back to answer the question: "If I were

C^:

(Pause)

T^:

Yes, you do!

T3
T5

a homosexual, what would that

But

let's

make me?"

don't know.

see

Now,
if

can give you the answer to the question.

you can get

it.

102

A YOUNG MALE AFRAID OF BECOMING A FIXED HOMOSEXUAL

103

(Pause) Less than a person?

Yes. Quite obviously, you're saying: "I'm bad enough. But
I

were homosexual, that would make me a

if

total shit!"

That's right.
T13

Now, why did you

fear really gets

you don't know?

just say

Just taking a guess at

that's

it,

me down!

It's it's just that the

all.

know why.

don't

(Laughing) Well, you just gave the reason why! Suppose you
were saying the same thing about we'll just say stealing;

You hadn't

stolen anything, but you thought of stealing some-

And you

would be a thorough shit!"

Just suppose that. Then, how much would you then start
thing.

said, ''If

stole,

thinking about stealing?

(Silence)
'pi7.

If

you believed

that: "If

shit!" would you think of

I'd

think of

it

That's right!

And

it,

would be a thorough

often? occasionally?

often.

As soon

would be a thorough
is

stole
it

as you say, "If so-and-so happens,

shit!" you'll

get obsessed with so-and-so.

the reason you're getting obsessed with homosexuality

this nutty belief, "If

Now,

total shit!"

were a homosexual,

look at that belief for a

would be a

moment. And

let's

you were a homosexual, it would have real disadvantages. Let's assume that. But why would you be a thorough
shit if you were a homosexual? Let's suppose you gave up
girls completely, and you just screwed guys. Now, why would

admit that

'p21

if

you be a thorough shit?

(Mumbles incoherently; is obviously having
answer)
Think about it for a moment.

Q22

(Pause) Let

'^23

Yeah.

'p25

C26
'p27

Right.

an

explain one thing.

I went to the groupTo the what?

Six months ago about five months ago I went
Island County Therapy.
What's that a clinic?

Yeah.
^^29

me

trouble finding

to the Staten

ALBERT

104

C^^:

And

after about five visits, the

man

ELLIS, PH.D.

says, "Don't bother me.

Believe me, you're heterosexual don't worry about

T31:

Yeah.

C^^:

He says 'There's nothing

worry about. Look, the only

problem you have is getting along with people." So he put
me into group therapy. And the group therapist wanted to
see

me

to

and he

alone for awhile

T^^:

And what was his view?

I don't know. He just sat there.
Oh, I see. He didn't say anything

C^^:

No.

T^^:
C^'*:

it."

T^^:

How

C^^:

Oh, about six times.

T^^:

And

C^^:

did.

to you.

long did you see him?

Or just see him?

didn't I really don't think I need

did you also continue in group?

continued in group.

make

the group. I'm hard to

once

friends with, admittedly. But

do make friends with a person,

can get along very

well.

T^^:

So you got

0^2:

No. The Center

T43:

Why

Is

out of

little

because he didn't say anything?

it

that right?

is it

C'*'*:

It just closed

T^^:

Oh,

it

down.

went out

operated

closed.

is

closed?

don't know.

of business.

'46.

No,

'47.

Right! For the reasons

it

was a private

a county center?

it

center. Look,

might be a homosexual."
pists

Was

Who

it?

seem

became obsessed: 'Tou

I became obsessed with the fear.

gave you before which both thera-

to have ignored.

C^s;

Yeah.

T^^:

See, the first one

was

correct. You're not a

homosexual. You

could become one; but the chances are you won't. But he didn't

explain to you

why you
And

are upset.

(^50.

No I

T^^:

But the reason you're obsessed

realize that.

obsessed with anything.

five

that's

why
is

I'm here.

the

see people

thousand different things. But

in

same reason you'd be

who

are obsessed with

every single case, just

about, I can track it down; and they're saying, ''If I were

so-and-so" For example, "if I got up and made a public

A YOUNG MALE AFRAID OF BECOMING A FIXED HOMOSEXUAL

speech and
school

and

and

fell

on

my

failed, I'd

failed, I'd

face, I'd be a shit!" "If

be a shit!" "If

And

Well no.

that obsession brings

sion

is:

and

(2)

It's

"If (1)

ever did

fail

I'd

to

heterosexually and

me

to'

failed at

be no

Now

that will

doubt myself.

part of your general obsession.

something

Your

real obses-

big, like heterosexuality,

me they

really didn't like

damned good!" Now,

as a subheading

other people didn't like

me then

went

tried for a better job

become a homosexual, I'd be an utter worm!"

obsess you with homosexuality.
C52:

be a shit!" Now, you're doing the same thing

about homosexuality: "If

'^53.

105

under that, you've got the homosexuality. Your general fear

is of being worthless isn't it?
Yeah.
And you don't only have it in the homosexual area that's
only dramatic and outstanding. What are you working at,
at present?

I'm a commercial artist.

Now, how do you feel about that, when you work at it?
Well, I made supervising artist. But I really didn't feel
was good enough. And I just keep going on and on
Oh.

You

see: "I

made

supervising artist, but

if

it

I'm not out-

standing, I'm a shit!" Is that what you're really saying?

(Silence)
'J'61.

C62:
'p63.

Think about it, now. Don't agree because I said so. Isn't it
something like that?
(Pause) I'll go along with it. Because I doubt just everything]
Right! But why does anybody doubt everything? Suppose I
introduce you to another guy and I can show you guys who
have Ph.D's, who have M.D.'s, who are outstanding painters
or sculptors, and they feel the same way as you. And some
of them have got reputations in their field; they're doing well.
They still think they're shits. Now, why do you think they
do?

(Pause)
'p65.

There's one main reason for shithood.

Now what

do you think

it is?

(Pause) Their goals are set too high?

Exactly! They're not saying, "I'd like to succeed." They're

ALBERT

106

ELLIS, PH.D.

need an absolute guarantee that I always

will succeed. And since there's always a good chance I won't,
I'm no damned good!"
saying, "I've got

to! I

They're foolish for that.

'peg

Right. But you're believing that, aren't you?

(Pause) Yes,

Now

am.

the problem

is:

How

are you going to give up that crap?

Although I, as the therapist, know very little about the client,

I size him up quickly and decide to take a chance, on the basis of
RET theory, and to try to get at one of the main cores of his problem
quickly: his terrible feelings of inadequacy or shithood. I assume,
because of his longstanding obsession and his not responding at
all well to previous therapy, that he rigidly holds on to his ideas
of how awful it would be for him to be a homosexual in particular
and a weakling or an incompetent in general; and I make an attempt
to show the client, almost immediately, what he is doing to cause
his central upsetness and what he presumably can do about understanding and changing himself. Because I believe that I know right
from the beginning what is basically irrational about the client's
premises, I start getting at them in his third response, and even
insist in my fifth and sixth responses, on bringing these prime irraI know fully that I may be barking up the wrong tree, and am prepared to back down later if I
turn out to be mistaken. But I know, on the basis of considerable
prior evidence, that there is an excellent chance that I may be right;
and I want, by taking that chance, to try to save the client a great
deal of time and pain. So I not only immediately try to educate
him about his own magical behefs in wormhood and its connection
with his fear of homosexuality, but I also try to show him how human
beings, in general, easily think the way he does and how so many
of them, no matter what their abilities and talents, wind up by
hating themselves because of this type of crooked thinking. I am
thus exceptionally educational in the first minutes of this first sessionjust as, presumably, any good teacher would be.

tionalities to the client's attention.

C^'-^:

(Pause)

mean, I I

sit

there and

try to prove

what a homo-

sexual is. Then I try to prove what a heterosexual is. And

then I try to prove what / am. And to try to prove what

you are, as a person

A YOUNG MALE AFRAID OF BECOMING A FIXED HOMOSEXUAL

Yeah?
is very hard
X75

to do.

no way of doing it except by some definiwere completely heterosexual, or if I were a

great supervising artist, or if I were an Adonis, then I'd be
a good guy!" That's the only way you can prove yourself: by
some arbitrary definition of accomplishment.
Because there
tion: "that if

76.

107

is

I kept, like in the other therapy,

abnormal and homosexual.

Yeah,

Meaning but what you mean

erybody

is

kept using the words

were abnormal if evnormal but me I'm no good!" Is that what you

is, ''If I

mean?
Yeah, I do mean that.
But let's suppose that, now. Let's just suppose that. Let's suppose that ninety-nine out of one hundred guys are normal

which

is

not true, but we'll deliberately suppose it and they

and marrying and

having children; and you're the one out of a hundred who
can't do that, who really is homosexual. All you can do is go
after boys, and you can't make it at all with girls. You're
impotent; you just can't make it with girls. We'll deliberately
assume that. Therefore, statistically you're abnormal. Right?
'Cause you're one out of a hundred, and they can do things
that you can't do. Now, why would you be a no-goodnik? Not
why would you be abnormal we're just assuming that you
would be; now, why would you be a no-goodnik (fthat were
so: you were the one out of a hundred who couldn't make
all

it

are screwing girls

and having a

ball

heterosexually?

Well

maybe
why

fear of loneliness.

would be inconvenient: because they'd get along

with girls, and you wouldn't. So therefore you might be lonely.
Though that's not true either: you might have a lot of homosexual guys. But let's suppose you're lonely. Now, why would
you be a louse because you're lonely? Not why would you be
failing? Because we're assuming you'd be failing. They're succeeding heterosexually; you're not. Now why would you be

That's

it

a louse?
'82.

For not falling

in

with what they're doing.

ALBERT

108

T^^:

But

that's a definition!

Now

let's

ELLIS, PH.D.

suppose the opposite,

in-

cidentallythat ninety-nine out of one hundred guys just

about made

with girls they got a girl here and they got

there, and they sort of succeeded but you were outit

a girl

standing, and you really were very good-looking and bright

and sexy, and

And you screwed

over you.

girls just fell all

one after another, and they kept calling you up, wanting more.
Now that would be abnormal, statistically. Right?
C^^:

(Pause)

^S5.

Why

would

It

be.

wouldn't you be a shit thenl You'd be one out of a

hundred!
C^^:

So I'm going by the use of a definition?

T^^:

That's right! 'That

But

if

have to be supergood. Then I'm okay.

I'm superbad one out of a hundred on the bad side-

then I'm a louse!" That's your definition. See? Now,

a defini-

is

tiondoes a definition prove anything about a fact? Because

it is a definition; and if you want to feel you're a shit, you
can feel you're a shit. But does it really prove you are a shit?
if you can only get there by definition?
dunno.

C^^:

T^^:

Because

it

can really get absurd.

"I'm a tuba."

And you

I,

for example, could say:

say, 'Tou're a tuba? Well,

how

did

you become a tuba? Prove it!" And I say, "Well, I'm going
around oomp-oomp-oomp-bah. Therefore I'm a tuba!" Now, does
that prove I'm a tuba?
C^o:

No.

X91;

What

C^^:

That you're not one. You may want

T^^:

Yes, that
if

does

prove?

think

It

am

does prove something. What?

a tuba. That's

to be

one

what

it

proves. Because

I'm going to go around acting like a tuba, whether

or not,
see.
it

it

think

Therefore,

if

am

a tuba. But

it

never proves

you go around acting as

doesn't prove you are one; but

it

if

am

am, you

you are a

shit,

does prove that you think

you are. And that's the story of your life! "If I'm not at least
as good as others, and preferably much better, I define myself
as an utter lowlifer! A skunk!" Right?
094;

Yes, that's true.

T^-^:

All right.

Now,

if

that's so,

how

could you

become a non-shit?

A YOUNG MALE AFRAID OF BECOMING A FIXED HOMOSEXUAL

By recognizing what
'p97.

have.

Or what

109

am.

Recognizing but let's suppose the worst: you recognize what

you are. But we'll go back to the previous hypothesis: you
really are the one out of a hundred who is homosexual, while
the other ninety-nine are straight. Would you then be a shit?
{Long pause) Yeah.

'p99.

Why

would you be?

QIOO.

(Pause)

'pioi.

Not,

couldn't
Q102.

think you were? But why would you actuyou were the one out of one hundred who

why would you

ally be a shit if

make

with

it

girls

and the other ninety-nine could?

[Long pause; silence)

You haven't proved

it

to

me

yet!

Why would you

be no good?

Worthless?

(Long pause) Because I'm not.

'pios

You're not what?

C106

I'm not part of the ninety-nine.

'piOT

"I'm not part and

Q108

Why? Why

should"

should you be?

Because of what
'piii

should be!

am.

Look! If you really are homosexual, you are a homosexual.

Now, why should you be ?ionhomosexual

sexual? That doesn't make sense!
(^112

if

you're really homo-

(Long pause; silence)

See what a bind you're in?

^114

Yeah.
You're taking the sane statement, "It would be desirable to
be heterosexual,
"Therefore,

if I

were gay," and you're translating

it

into,

should be." Isn't that what you're doing?

Yeah.

But does that make sense?

If

It doesn't!

were the one out of ninety-nine percent

Yeah; and we're assuming that's undesirable.

should be heterosexual.

C120.

'pi21.

Why? You
abnormal,

^122.

haven't given
I

me any

should be normal."

Because homosexuality

is

reason yet. "Because I'm

Now

why'!

described as being abnormal.

ALBERT

110

T^'"^^:

C^^^:

T125.

Granting that (1) it's abnormal, and (2) it's undesirable, we're
assuming that. Now, why should you be normal and desirable?
Not ''Why is it nice to be?"
Because I want to be!
That doesn't equal should. You might want to have a million
dollars.

You might want

to be the greatest supervising artist

that ever lived. Most of us do.

Now, does that mean you should

you want to be? No, you see you're saying,

be, because

should get what

want.

In other words, I'm pushing up against

my
T^2^:

wants against what

''I

should be most desirable!" Not "I

want to be" that's perfectly sane. But 'I've

I want to be!" Now, does that make sense?
C^^^:

ELLIS, PH.D.

my

desires,

it.

got to be

what

I'm I'm expressing

my

what

You're making your wants into necessities not desires.

Which they
have

it.

are! "I

And

want a

million dollars; therefore

don't have

to be straight, right

now

I'm

you were. "Therefore, I'm a

should

therefore I'm a shit!" "I want

it;

gay" we're

shit!"

just

assuming that

Now, do those things follow?

C^^^:

(Pause) No, they don't follow.

T^'^^:

So your shithood doesn't come from your desire. It comes from

your demand: "I must be normal; I must do the right thing.
I've got to!"

And

any demands, you're

clients all the time: if you

as long as you have

going to be anxious. As I tell my

demand that "I must have sl dollar
dollar, at all times,"

in

my

pocket, at least a

what's going to happen

when you

don't

have the dollar?

Q130.

You're gonna feel

T^^^:

You're gonna feel terribly anxious.

all

out of place without

Now

it.

suppose you do have

the dollar. You're saying, "I've gotta absolutely have that dollar,

at least a dollar at

all

times!"

exactly a dollar in your pocket.

And you have

How

it;

you have

are you then going to

feel?
C^^^:

^133.

That you've gotta have more.

You'll still feel anxious. Because you'll need the guarantee
that you'll always have a dollar; you can't have a guarantee.
So even if you're 100 percent straight, and you're saying to
yourself "I've got to be straight; I must be straight; it's necessary that I be straight," you'll be anxious. Because you have

A YOUNG MALE AFRAID OF BECOMING A FIXED HOMOSEXUAL

C^"^^:
T^-^^^:

111

no guarantee that you'll always be straight. Twenty years

from now, you might become gay!
That's what scares me.
"Because I've got to be!" Now suppose you were saying, "I'd
like to have a dollar in my pocket at all times; I'd very much
have

like to

it,

\Yell,

T137:

Yeah.

it's

just a

ninety cents will have to

"It's too

bad

And you

like.''

How

got ninety cents.

dollar; you've
Q136.

but

don't have a

are you going to feel?

suffice.

don't have a full dollar.

try to get

I'll

ten cents more, since I'd like to have a dollar. But

I

don't.

then

And

and
be pretty happy." Right? The

I'll

if I

do have a

or like to be straight
Q138.

Qj^Q

T^^^:

That's right.
all

is

And you

like to

is

if I don't,

have one,

have a dollar

vastly different from got

^ demand, and one

is

I'd like to

dollar,

to, isn't it?

expressing a wish.

have wishes. You translate

your major wishes into demands: "I've got to be a great
really don't

supervising artist. I've got to be absolutely straight. I've got

to do well in various other areas."

Now,

isn't that

what you

invariably do?
(^140.

Yeah,

do,

do that.

transform

all

my

wishes into into de-

mands.
T^^^'

Now how

C142.

Yeah.

I,

am

can you be nonanxious,

if

you do that?

as the therapist, keep belaboring a single point here, until

fairly sure that the client is getting

main cores of RET:

to

show the

it.

For

this is

one of the

client that his anxieties are not

caused by his failing to achieve some goal that he wishes to achieve,

but by his demanding that he achieve it. I feel, with practically
all my clients, that if I can get over to them this single point, especially in one of the early sessions, that I have given them something
of almost inestimable value: namely, the idea that they create their
anxieties and other upsets, and that they almost invariably do so
by a single major irrational idea: the idea that they must have or
need what they want. If they see this, then no matter what they
are anxious, guilty, depressed, or angry about, they have a simple
way of quickly discovering the real cause of their disordered emotion
their own demandingness and of starting to challenge and
attack it right away.

ALBERT

112

The

first

ELLIS, PH.D.

session with this highly disturbed client, therefore,

is

most clients who are afraid that they will fail

in some important way and that they therefore will be worthless.
Even though the session is only a half hour in length (as almost
all sessions are these days), and even though I know very little about

typical of that with

the client's past or present

to

him the notion that he

effectively start

undoing

believe that if I can get across

creating his anxiety and that he can
in short order, he can be significantly
life, I

is

it

helped during this first session. In case he subsequently shows that

he has not understood my message or has not worked with the tools
I have started to give him, then I merely go over the same ground
several times, until he begins to see more clearly the scientific
method of understanding and tackling his emotional problems that
I am trying to teach him. But it is surprising how many seriously
upset individuals are able to get at least part of my Socratic-like
instruction immediately and to begin to make some use of it.

Although this particular client seems to have some difficulty in

comprehending that it is his own perfectionistic demands on himself
that are disturbing him (as shown by his frequent pauses and silences), I keep persisting at going over the same message until he
seems to be getting it. With a more alert and faster-learning client,
I would try to get over the same idea more quickly and then spend
more time applying it to other parts of his life, or getting on to
other aspects of his anxiety about homosexuality.

'^143

^144
^^145

Now

what?
I'll always be anxious (inaudible)
As long as you have necessities, demands, got-to's

C146

(Inaudible)

^^147

Because as soon as you say,

''I've

got to

have x"

such

as be

straight and there's the slightest possibility that you won't,

then you'll say, "Wouldn't it be awful if I were not what I've
got to be?"

While

if

you're sticking to "It's desirable to be

straight, but I'm not or

shit!

So

I'd

be gay!

might not

wouldn't

be," you'll say, "Well,

like

it.

And

I'd

tough

work against

it if I were gay. But what's so goddamned horrible about

having an undesirable trait?" You see?

C^"^^:

T^^^:

But that undesirable trait scares me.

No! "/ scare me, with my got-to's! It isn't the undesirable
trait that scares me. Since I must be straight, then the mere

A YOUNG MALE AFRAID OF BECOMING A FIXED HOMOSEXUAL

thought of being gay scares me. But

and right now I'm not,

you see the difference?
Q150.

I'd

if I

want

113

to be straight,

be concerned but not scared.''

Do

I'd be very concerned about it

You'd be concerned, just like ''I would like to have a good
job. Today I am unemployed. I am concerned about getting

a good job.

I'd

got to have a

better get off

good

job,

my

ass

and today

and get one. But

am unemployed,

if I've

I'm dis-

traught, I'm despairing, I'm anxious!" Isn't that so?

(Nods in agreement)
'pi53.

Now, you're always escalating your

desires,

your wishes, your

preferences into needs, necessities, got-to's.

154.

am.

'J'

I'm sure

C155.

Then what could you dol

C156.

(Pause; silence)

'pioT.

very obvious!

It's

Q15S.

Stop demanding?

'piss.

That's exactly right! Interrupt every

demand because as soon

as you feel anxious at point C, the consequence,

it's

not because

of A, the possibility that you might

become gay, it's because

of B, your belief: "Wouldn't it be awful if I became gay! I
must be absolutely straight!" And you'd better change B!
your demand. Not your wishes. You want to remain straight;
you don't want to be gay; it's a pain in the ass to be gay;
it's abnormal to be gay in this culture. What a nuisance! "But
I absolutely, for the rest of my life, must have a guarantee
that I'll never have a gay thought and always remain straight!"
ThaVs your nutty demand.
^160.
'pi61.

is my demand.
So suffer! I'll write

That

you a guarantee as long as you have

Do you see why you'll suffer?

that demand, you will suffer!

want that guarantee.

(3162

'Cause

'pi63

'Cause you're demanding a guarantee.

C164

So

'pi65

You have

I'll

keep on doubting.
to; 'cause

there are no guarantees in the world! If

you were that one out of a hundred who was straight, and
the other ninety-nine were gay how do we know that that
won't be reversed five years from now?

ALBERT

114

ELLIS, PH.D.

C^^^:

(Pause; silence)

^167.

There are no guarantees in life! And you're saying, 'There

must be! I must be guaranteed normal, guaranteed to do the
right thing, guaranteed to succeed, guaranteed to win people's
approval." Well, lots of luck! All you're going to have with
that nonsense is practically guaranteed misery!

As the therapist, I am possibly a bit too dogmatic here. I often

put in qualifiers, at this point, and say things such as: 'There are,
as far as we scientifically know, no guarantees in life"; or, ''The
chances are exceptionally high that, with that hypothesis that you
devoutly believe, you will be utterly miserable." With this client,
for dramatic effect and because of time limitations, I did not put
in these italicized qualifiers. Probably, they are unnecessary; since
the client seems to be getting the main points I am making. But
rational-emotive therapists would better take care that they are not
dogmatic or authoritarian, since then they are doing the same thing
that the client is doing, and cannot be scientifically upheld.

C^^^:

(Pause; silence)

^169.

Now, there

are two words which people

create just about

all

tell

emotional disturbance.

themselves which

What do you

think

they might be?

Ci7:

"I'm a shithead!"

T^^^:

Yes, that's almost right. But those words would only create

anxiety and depression, not anger. The two words usually are:

awful that I do this; and if / do it badly I'm a shithead;

they do it badly to me, they're shitheads! And if the
is
world
too hard, I can't stand it iVs awfulV Right?
''IVs

and

if

Q172.

(^jsiods

^173.

Now, what two words could people use

Ci^4.

-So what?"

T175.

Or "Tough

in agreement)

to get rid of their

emotional disturbance? Just about every emotional disturbance could be eliminated if they really believed two words.

What do you

think they would be?

"So / do badly at times so I'm 'abnormal'

at times. So the world treats me unfairly at times. So life
is rough. Tough shitl That's the way it is! I am fallible; they
shit!"

are fallible; so the world

is

the

way

it is!

ToughV

If

you would

A YOUNG MALE AFRAID OF BECOMING A FIXED HOMOSEXUAL

really accept that,

115

about your limitations, about other people's

and about the world's limitations, you'd wish

things were better: you, they, and the world. But you wouldn't
be mad. And you'd say: "If I ever became a homosexual, tough
shit! I'd face it and do something about it. It wouldn't be
good; it would be bad. Tough! But it wouldn't be horrible or
limitations,

awful or catastrophic." You see?

176.

I,

(Pause; silence)
as therapist, give the client every opportunity to respond

to agree with, rebut, or cavil with the points

make. Most

and

clients

have quite a few rejoinders, and a lively discussion ensues. This

particular one is so depressed and confused that he thinks slowly
and is probably afraid to make some rejoinders he thinks of making.

Hence there

is

not too

much

of a dialogue.

But the method of teach-

ing by questioning, rather than of merely stating points or facts,

is frequently used; and the client is often asked to fill in point B
(his belief system), for example, after I have shown him what A

and C (the emotional consequence) are. This

method would probably take too long with the present client, and
therefore when he does not answer, I frequently proceed and add
(the activating event)

made. Preferably, however, he would respond

question or fill in the blank I had left for him; then I would
correct his response if necessary and we would go on. Even this
client responds, from time to time, when prodded. But he gives short
answers and does not argue back very much which probably would
to the point already

to

my

be better.
'177.

rarely say 'Tough shit!" And you're always saying

would be awful!" or "It's now awful!"
I always say demands.
Right! Now, if you want to change those demands, change
them. But if you keep them, you'll get the same crummy results. Well, we haven't got any more time now. You go give
it some thought. And there's no question, you could change.
The question is, when are you going to give up those demandsl
Fortunately, they're your demands. You don't have to maintain them. You can get rid of them. Okay, you give them

You very
"It

C^''^:

^179.

some thought. You can make another appointment.

Ci0:

I will.

ALBERT

116

ELLIS, PH.D.

saw that the end of the session was approaching

from T^^^ onward, got in the idea that all
emotional disturbance seems to be created by two irrational words
that people tell themselves, "It's awful!" and that it can be diminI,

as therapist,

and somewhat

briefly,

ished or eliminated by their believing strongly in the essence of

two other words, "Tough shit!" I usually present this point in more

detail particularly showing the individual that what he calls his

"emotional" problem is really his having a problem about a problem.
Some unfortunate event is occurring or may occur at point A (the
activating event or activator), and he feels upset at C (the consequence).

He

usually wrongly thinks that

causes C; but, of course,

B, his belief system, causes his emotional consequences.

When

these

consequences are self-defeating or disordered, he is almost invariably

telling himself a rational belief (rB) and an irrational belief (iB)
at point B. I show him specifically what these are, using an example

from

his

own

life.

Then

show him that

his irrational belief

is

just

about always a form of the sentence, "It's awful!" I also show him
how this particular client's answer, "So what?" is not a very good
one since it implies that it is not important at all what happens
to him at point A. Actually it usually is important; but it is not
a/^important or sacred that the point A occurrence be changed or
improved. So the right answer is, when A is unfortunate or inefficient, "Tough shit!" meaning, "That's the way this event is (or
may be). I don't like it, and I want to get rid of it. But I can stand
it; and there's no reason why it shouldn't exist (although it would
be much better if it didn't). Now, let me see how I can temporarily
gracefully lump it, then learn to deal with it, and finally, if possible,
get back to it and change it."
I find that I am often able to get this point over during the first
therapy session. Consequently, some alert and hard-working individuals immediately begin to use it in their lives and come back to
the second session considerably improved, especially in regard to
something or some person about which they are terribly angry. These
clients are the minority, but they do exist. Most clients, after several
somewhat repetitive sessions, are able to see and combat their "awfulizing" and much more consistently change it into acceptance of
reality, even when it's grim. I did not assume that the client in
this case would quickly get around to using the "Tough shit!" idea.
But I thought that it would be good to present it to him for the
first time, so that later repetitions might fall on more fertile ears.
Usually, when one of my clients is a fixed, compulsive homosexual
or has fears of becoming one, I tell him something about homosex-

A YOUNG MALE AFRAID OF BECOMING A FIXED HOMOSEXUAL

uality

and particularly try

him

to get

to distinguish

117

between homo-

sexual behavior or episodes and obsessiveness with being an exclusive homosexual. In the former instance, the individual is basically

heterosexual (or bisexual) and from time to time has homosexual

desires and sometimes overt activity; but he does so out of choice
or preference, and not because he thinks that he has to do so. In
the latter instance, he does not really have any choice but views

himself as almost completely homosexual and believes that he can

only desire and have sex-love satisfaction with members of his own
sex. In this case, as

show

in various of

my

writings, especially

Causes and Cure (Ellis, 1965), the

individual is disturbed, overly rigid, or fixated on homosexuality;
and it would be preferable, though hardly necessary, that he acknowledge his having a hang-up and do something about overcoming
it, so that he could thereafter, at the very least, have successful
sex-love relations with members of the other sex as well as his own.
I often explain this to my clients and help them distinguish between their sporadic or noncompulsive homosexual behavior and
their fixed homosexuality. I did not do this in this particular case
mainly because of lack of time. I knew that I would get around
it in subsequent sessions, and I did. I also knew that this client
assumed that fixed homosexuality constituted something of a disturbance, but I also knew that he considered any homosexual leaning
a flaw and an indication of his worthlessness. I was much more
interested in this second matter, since it was a real hang-up. And
I worked with him, during the next several sessions, to show him
that he didn't have to be 100 percent anything; that probably no
one was 100 percent heterosexual, and that being in that kind of
rigid category of 100 percent heterosexuality (if one could ever make
it) was probably to be almost as disturbed as being completely homosexual. He slowly and reluctantly seemed to accept this view, and
as he did so, he became better and better. From the sixth session
onward, he began to make real progress and to accept himself with
his failings, including his obsession with the possibility of his being
homosexual.

book Homosexuality:

in the

Its

EIGHTH SESSION
Hi!
I

X3

What's doing?

keep I

Yeah?

pretty

How

much got

have you got

it all

it

sorted out.

sorted out?

ALBERT

118

C^:

Well, there just are no shits. There are just

T^:

All right.

who make
just a

can

T^:

Right!

C^:

It's

just

specifically,

does that apply to you? Are you

whether I'm a better human being or

That's

not, if

Right.

C^^:
T^^:

If I want to correct them

And sometimes even if you want

C^'^:

Correct

T^^:

Yeah. Let's suppose you make a mistake, and

C^^:

Fuck

T^^:

That's right. You're

to correct them,

can't be corrected it's too late.

them

What about

some

then!

it's

gotta

it

can't be cor-

too late.
live

still

with

it

a fallible

that

way

then.

human.

C^^:

Um-hm. But

Well, no; that's not quite true. If you buy a stock and

(]2o.

T^^:
C^^:

T^^:

C^^:

T^^:

there's nothing you can't correct.

it

goes

down, it goes down! And that's it! So don't say that.

Yeah.
Most things, however, you can correct.
Well, anything that has to do with feeling like a shit, or
anything else like that.
That you can always correct right?
Yes, that can always be corrected.
You never have to feel like a shit, no matter what you've
done poorly.
Yeah. You know, and I'm saying anything physical, anything that you have control over like your own self, you can
always correct.
You can not do it again. If you went out and screwed a boy,
you wouldn't have to keep screwing a boy.

C26:

No.

T^^:

T^^:

It would just be an error

Yeah.
You could correct that error

C-^":

You

C2:

of

that?

T^^:

T^^:

correct

too late?

rected any more;

CIS:

it.

all.

T^:

it,

beings

mistakes.

How,

them. That's

them

human

human being who can make mistakes?

make mistakes, just as anyone else can.

C^:

ELLIS, PH.D.

it

could always correct

yourself.

it.

As long

as you have control over

A YOUNG MALE AFRAID OF BECOMING A FIXED HOMOSEXUAL

'p.n.

Which you do if you don't blame

yourself.

119

Then you have

the control.
32.

Yeah. But otherwise, anything outside of you, you can always

try to correct.
you're

'^33.

still

Sometimes

not a

You're never

sl

it's

beyond correcting, so but

shit!

shit!

No, you can never you're just a

human being who

has

made

a mistake, and you've got the right to try again.

Right!

Because that's what a human being is. And I've been thinking
about it more and more. Sometimes I pretty much hold onto
it,

the idea of the whole thing.

And

And

I've

thought

sometimes, you know, a shit comes back to

it all

out.

me with

me.
I thought badly, and therefore I'm no good!"
"and
therefore
I'm a shit!"
Yes,
Yeah.
Yeah, that really hits me. Sometimes.
But then what do you do?
Well, then I remember that, you know well, I try to think
of the classic case of stereotyping. And, you know, they're

"I did badly, or

'^39

C42

just

human

beings,

who make

mistakes. That's what hits

me

harder than anything else the stereotyping which I'm

slowly getting rid

of,

though.

human beings shouldn't make

lice when they do.

'^43.

Yeah: that

C^^:

Yeah. But the stereotyping's there of the homosexual, the

one who goes prancing down the street which is quite comi-

they're

mistakes; and that

cal

^45

'p47

now!

Yeah.

The stereotyping hits me harder than anything else does.

Because what do you think of when you think of that stereotyped "fairy"?

Q4S

Oh,

f49

He
He

think:

"What

a shit!"

is?

is. Or what a shit I could become.

But how is he a shit? Let's suppose that he's one of the few
homosexuals who is in that stereotyped "fairy"-like way. Suppose that he's prancing down the street, showing off, etc.

120

ALBERT

Now, why
'52.

he a shit?

think he's a the reason why I think he might be

even though there are no shits, there are no stereotypes,
really is because he's made a/oo/ of himself, number one

Well,

a
'53.

is

ELLIS, PH.D.

shit,

That's

why

he's acting badly.

And

making a
make a com-

he's really not

fool of himself. He's acting foolishly.

You

can't

plete fool of yourself; you can just act foolishly. Because that

same guy,

in

business or something else, might act very

sanely.

Q54

Yeah.

So

in that respect he's acting foolishly.

Yes, he's acting foolishly.

Why

Now,

let's

Well,

because suppose he's the type of

to

make

suppose he

mistakes.

is.

And

is

he a shit?

guy who doesn't

like

therefore, you're not supposed to act

foolish.
^59.

Well, you see, that's your nonsense: that you're not supposed
to act foolishly; the

human

well, sanely, properly.

But where are these humans who always

is

at

all

times supposed to act

act well?
'60.

'61.

There are none, really. There's always one aspect in each

of us where we act foolishly, and some little quirk we have.
All right. But that's your worst stereotype: that a human is
supposed to act non-foolishly.

C62:

Yeah.

Even though the client seems to be doing very well, and to be

seeing for the first time that he can make mistakes without considering himself a louse for making them, I, as his therapist, suspect
that he may only be giving lip service to this notion and not really
be believing in it. I therefore persist in taking him up on his statements, to see if he really sticks by them. He admits that he sometimes does not; but it appears fairly obvious that he often does
adhere to his new, less bigoted way of thinking. At the very least,
he now seems to know what the right way to think is, and he is
working toward thinking this way. He just hasn't reached it consistently or permanently, and I keep after him to make sure that he
understands it even better during what seem to be his closing sessions, so that by the time he quits therapy, he will have the new
philosophy more solidly under his belt.

A YOUNG MALE AFRAID OF BECOMING A FIXED HOMOSEXUAL

121

At this point during the session, I go off into a discussion of

extreme homosexuality and transsexualism with the client, to show
him that even people in this "abnormal" category are not to be
despised and are entitled to their peculiar ways. He seems to accept
this illustration and to learn by it. I also try to show him that it
is illegitimate to label an individual as a "Negro" or a "black" when
he is really a person who, among many other traits, happens to have
black skin. The client seems to accept this, too. He continues:
'63.

So as long as I keep thinking of a human being not being

a shit, and yet one who makes mistakes, as long as I keep
proving

it

to myself that that's

even think

I'll

all

problem

at that, within time the

have to work at

there

is,

and

will just leave.

if

And

work

don't

it.

Right.
I

think

yet

it

still

come now. So

will just

see

it

more and more,

have these lags of going back to a shit. It's so

secure. But it makes for fucking misery!

much so much more

And

a lot of

it.

Something

gotten over the problem,

don't need! But

really get along

with

now

that I've

my girl

friend

a lot better, and everything else. I've noticed that.

'pee

Right.

And I
'pes

enjoy

it

more!

Yes, because you're not spending the time doubting, giving

yourself a pain in the

C69:

Yeah.

her but

ass

always used to give myself I didn't complain to

I

always used to give myself that pain

in the ass

because, you see, I've had homosexual experiences.

always think of a
to six,

forget.

fucking scale?" Yeah.

'pro.

"How

do

Yeah.

And

Kinsey

little

And

scale,

And

one to seven, or one

Where am I on that

say, "Jesus, God!

And

rate myself?"
that's

rating myself.

And

when
then

it
it

first started.

It

started out just

went deeper and deeper and deeper

can go out now and go further up

and deeper. But I think I

the scale. And, say you know, like "It doesn't matter. Really! It just matters whether I really want my girl friend or
do I want a boy. Do I want to go out and hunt down another
man, and have him do the job?"

ALBERT

122

T^^:
C^^:

ELLIS, PH.D.

And

that doesn't make it

But that would be saying I know it is a lot of bull. So why
should I do that now? And you can't make out 100 percent
all the time with broads. So I just keep thinking about human
beings making mistakes and being allowed to change them
and correct them. And being able to come back and say, '1
might have done that. I might have had those experiences
and everything else. But they're something Fll take for growing up, or take for what they are. I'll take for what they
are, and they're worth. But I made a mistake; and I'm entitled
to do that. But I'm also entitled to change that. I'm also entitled to come back and try." And I just keep thinking of
that.

Now

that he has got the idea that he doesn't have to

condemn

he isn't completely heterosexual, the client begins to see

clearly that he has followed this sequence: (1) He had some minor
homosexual experiences. (2) He read the Kinsey reports and noted
how they scaled homosexual behavior from one to six. (3) He began
wondering what his rating on this scale might be. (4) He thought
that if he had a high rating or was a "real" homosexual, he would
be pretty worthless. (5) He therefore became obsessed with this kind
of rating and kept asking himself if he were really a homosexual.
(6) His relations with his girl friend suffered somewhat. Now that
he agrees, at least at times, that he isn't a rotter even if he were
largely homosexual, and now that he sees that he doesn't have to
be 100 percent heterosexual, he is stopping his obsession with his
sexuality and is getting along better with his girl friend.
At the end of this eighth session, the client feels that he is doing
so well that he decides on a two-week instead of a one-week gap
between sessions. He continued therapy for five subsequent sessions,
then felt that he wanted to try it on his own. A follow-up report,
six months after therapy ended, showed that he was no longer obsessed with sexual ideas, was continuing to get along better than
ever with his girl friend, and rarely blamed himself for any act,
even when he made a fairly serious mistake. His feelings of self-acceptance kept becoming stronger, and he felt that he had few problems any longer in that regard.

himself

if

CHAPTER

A Young Woman

with Feelings
of Depression

PAUL

A.

HAUCK,

Ph.D.

client is a twenty-eight-year-old woman who was seen a few

times one year prior to the present session because she was somewhat insecure about her impending divorce. At that time, she was
able to weather her problems in this connection, and the therapy
sessions were therefore terminated. She now returns to therapy in
a state of moderate depression, accompanied by episodes of uncontrollable sobbing and anxiety over her depressed state.

The

FIRST SESSION
T^:

You were saying on

the phone that you had a divorce in

October and that you have not been depressed until about
a
C^:

week

ago.

Well, I'd say about three

When we

weeks

got our divorce,

ago. It's really hard to explain.

we were still friends and everyAnd then when I would see him,

thing.

We

like a

weekend or something, I was out with another guy

to show up at the same place we were and

got along

fine.

and he happened

we all just had fun together;

went home I was depressed. I don't know my
old feelings came back or something. And then the next weekend about the same thing happened; he takes the kids on
weekends, and when he brought them home, he stayed for
about an hour. We had coffee and talked at the kitchen table,
and after he left, I cried and silly things like that; and then
by the next Wednesday at the very most, I'd be fine again.
And then this last week, the thing did not happen on the

he sat with us at the table, and

and when

123

124

PAUL

A.

HAUCK, PH.D.

weekend. I wasn't with him at all. And when he brought the

kids home, he did not stay or anything; and I was out with
this date for a half hour or so, but I didn't have any of these

was depressed the whole

week, and I didn't know why. I didn't feel like I was depressed
because of him or anything, but I think I still love him in
a way; but I don't want to live with him, and I don't have
any desire for him physically or anything. But I feel a certain
feelings or anything; but then

feeling for him.

all
rp3.

the years

Right.

How

care about him.

we were

suppose

it is

natural after

married.

long were you married?

Eight and a half years.

Eight and a half years.

And you have how many

children?

Three.
T":

It

sounds

like

your

kind of feeling a

first

little

two depressions were the

result of

sorry for yourself because you were

lonely.

Right.

You had met him again, and wasn't it too bad that you couldn't
make something out of the marriage; and ''Gee, we had lovely
memories together," and that kind of

thing. Is that right?

Right.
'pii.

But now you are suggesting that the last depression that you
had, which has not let up, was due to something else.
I think probably it is. I don't know. I found myself having
very little patience with the kids, screaming at them, and
then wishing I hadn't. And then at work all day long I sat
there and just started crying for no reason. I mean no apparent reason. I just all of a sudden started crying and felt silly
about it, but it wasn't something I felt I could control at
the time. And I don't know why. I tried to think about it
and wonder why I was feeling that way, if I was feeling
sorry for myself, if I was lonely, or what it was. There is
another situation. I don't like to admit it, but I was seeing
a married man, and I think I am in love with him. And he
says he loves me and all this stuff; and he says he is going
to get a divorce. But he hasn't done it yet, and I think that
might have something to do with the depression, too, because
I've been seeing him since I got the divorce.

A YOUNG WOMAN WITH FEELINGS OF DEPRESSION

How

125

steadily?

first it was about twice a week. Well, I see him every

day at work, for one thing, but as far as seeing him alone,
it was twice or maybe once a week.
For how long?
For six months.
Well, I presume you have a fairly intense relationship going

Well, at

'pi7

here.

Right.

And you have had

intercourse with this

man?

Yes.
'p21

'22.

Now what

Okay.

Because

maybe

think that

Why

happened?

the depression, because

it

are you bringing that up

that had something to do with

has been so long that

we have been

seeing each other, and he hasn't gotten a divorce yet.

'p23.

Oh,

C24:

And

'p25.

And you were

C26:

Well,

see.

was upset about

saying he

going

to,

and he

one thing, because he keeps

didn't.

thinking about this about a week ago?

have been thinking about it for a long time. But I

have been just sort of saying to myself well, he will. And
then

maybe
rp27
I

think last

week

going

he's not

my

sort of got the idea in

head

to.

see.

Because
^^29

is

that, for

has

it

You began

been you know.

to really, really doubt last

week whether he was

really sincere.

Yes.
I

is

Then what
when you began

see. All right.

situation

did you

tell

yourself about that

to realize that

pulling a fast one on you?

Or that he

is

maybe

this

man

not really in love

with you and has no intentions of divorcing his wife?

C32

What
What

Q34

Well, for the past couple

did

think about?

did you think?

What

did you say to yourself?

months I've been I keep telling

him I'm not going to see him any more until he gets divorced
because it's not right, for one thing, and it's not good for
me, and it's not good for him and his wife and the kids, and

PAUL

126

the whole
I

bit.

Right? But then

change

my

A.

HAUCK, PH.D.

mind, and then

ask him to come over or something after I've already said,

'Tm not going to see you any more." And so, I don't know
what I thought when I start thinking. I really think that he
wants to get a divorce, but he doesn't have guts. That's what
T^'^:

I think. Maybe I'm kidding myself, I don't know.

You have begun to wonder this past week whether you were

kidding yourself. For the

in fact

first

time you really began

"maybe I'm being taken for a ride."

Before that you were always more positively oriented or per-

to seriously think that

suaded, shall

we

say? All right.

Now

you are asking me,

"Why do I get depressed? Why did I get depressed

last week? What can I do about overcoming this depression?"
Is that what you want to see me about?
Yes, and I think if I had certain goals You told me once
suppose,

C^^:

before that

wrap myself up

shouldn't

so

much

one person,
this I am having
in

which is what I did with my husband. And

a tendency to do again; and I think unless I develop other
interests or widen my personality or something, the whole
thing is going to happen again. And everybody says, "What
do you want? What do you want to do with your life? Do
you want a home and family, or do you want to be free?"

And

guess sometimes

want.

feel like I'd rather not

where
I

really don't

know what
sometimes

have the

could do just anything

feel guilty because

know I

don't think

feel guilty because

don't know. I'm just kind of

kids. I'd rather be free

wanted

to do.

And

shouldn't feel this way. And,

it's

any one thing.

It's

then
don't

a combination

of things that upsets me.

'37.

All right.

think

we have

down what you're doing.

we must understand all of
You see, actually, from what

to break

In order to control this feeling,

the elements that are creating

it.

hear now, there are probably two ways in which you are
depressing yourself. Depression can be caused by one or more
I

of three methods.

The

first

one

is

to

blame yourself for some-

thing that you are doing. The second

something, and the third one

is

is

to pity

to pity yourself for

somebody

else.

For

you were to see a child hobbling along with a

cane, your heart might want to break over his misery, and
example,

if

A YOUNG WOMAN WITH FEELINGS OF DEPRESSION

127

you can get pretty depressed over thinking of other people's

problems. But you can get obviously just as depressed over
thinking of your own problems and how unfair it is, and where
you are going, and so on; and I have the feeling that some
of the time you are getting depressed because you are looking
at your life and you are saying, "What's this all about? Poor
I am not getting anyplace. I waited very faithfully
man for half a year. I showed him my trust, and
of a gun isn't coming through the way I hoped he

me! Here
for this

the son

would, and isn't that awful.

here

am

myself because

feel so sorry for

being taken advantage

and

of,

been a decent

I've

person about this whole thing." Right? Can you sense that
that

is

Yes,

don't

tion.

part of your depression?

suppose

so.

want you

Do you

to agree just because

offered

sense or feel that self-pity

is

it

as a sugges-

part of your prob-

lem?
Yes.

For example, those first two weeks when you were out with
your husband, you got depressed after he went home.
Right.
'p43

That was

wasn't

self-pity,

it?

Sure.

"Why

can't

we

live

together? Wouldn't

he had been able to overlook some of

sort of thing.

"And he

Yeah.

'J'47.

All right.

Now I am

have been nice

don't have

what

if

And

this

ought to

feel

faults?"

didn't. That's terrible!

so sorry for myself because

C46:

it

my

want." Correct?

So probably some of your depression is self-pity.

wondering also whether or not being guilty is part

it guilty because you are having an affair. Guilty because

sometimes you want to reject your children, because they are
in the way. I don't know. You fill that in for me. Can you?
What do you think you are guilty about?
Well, I think you are right.
About what?
I feel guilty about not wanting the children. Most of the time
of

^48
'p49
Q5()

don't feel guilty about the affair because

of

it

in that

way.

If it

was somebody

else,

never thought

would.

guess

PAUL

128

I'm like most people.

wrong
T'^i;

A.

HAUCK, PH.D.

don't apply the rules to myself.

for everybody else but

it's

It's

okay for me.

So then you suspect that you are feeling guilty

All right.

because of your feelings of not wanting the kids.

C52:
T'^^:

Yes.

What do you mean when you say you don't want them? You
mean they should be given away? You wish you never had
them? You wish they were dead? Or what are you talking
about?

C''^:

don't know.

If

don't like the responsibility of the children.

they could just

all

play together. But you have to discipline

them, and you have to teach them; you have to

have to that, and I
It

C^^:

Yes, but

Is that what you mean?

then I mean nobody made me have them.

am mature enough
enough

right,

to

have them, then

now
it

can't be
I

you blame yourself.

to be, then

the question

do whatever
'59.

If

should be mature

notice that sometimes you are not fully the

want

Is

mother

that

it?

All

are you right for blaming yourself

and disinterested mother?

is,

for being an inadequate

Well,

to take care of them.

When you
that you

'58.

and you

gets to be a heavy burden.

T^^:

T57.

this,

anybody

Nobody

else's fault.

do or think whatever

else

makes me

think.

grant you that what

is happening there
between you and the children, and therefore most of the things that go wrong might very well be
your fault. Correct? I'm saying, "Should you blame yourself
because it is your fault?" Do you know what I mean by blamel
I mean something very precise when I say blame. I mean
that you are not only dissatisfied with yourself as a mother,
which might be very accurate and correct to say; but you are
also dissatisfied with you as a person. In other words, you
don't like yourself period. Not only don't you like your mothering, you don't like yourself as a woman, who happens to be
a mother. You are not just saying that your mothering characteristics are wanting. That would be correct, because right
now you don't feel very much like a mother. You've got responsibilities you don't want. It would be very nice to give
the kids to someone else until they are ten years old, and

didn't say fault.

with the children

is

A YOUNG WOMAN WITH FEELINGS OF DEPRESSION

129

then you can come back and take care of them. Right? Okay.

So you are right when you say,

being the

"I don't think I'm

greatest mother in the world to these kids." Then you say,

"and that makes me an awful, worthless, good-for-nothing

human being." And that that is when you get depressed.
Not when you admit that you are not a good mother. It is
when you convince yourself that you are not a good person
because you happen not to be a good mother. Follow me?
^60

Yes.

^62

Well,

Explain
I

it

me

to

then.

think what you

mean is that well, like, not everybody

You could try and try forever, and

could be a good carpenter.

'63.

you could not be a good carpenter. But it's not your fault
that you can't be a good carpenter because you have tried;
and the same way, just because I am not a good mother does
not mean that I am not a good person. But then there are
other things that you are not good at too, soWell, now you are saying, of course, that it's okay that you
are not a good mother as long as you are good in something
else.

Yes.
'pes.

You've got to be good in a bunch of other

stuff.

Now, why

do you have to be?

Why

In other words,

could point out right here that you are

can't

you be lousy at a

lot of

things?

probably a lousy bicycle driver, aren't you?

Q66

No.

'^67

No? Oh, I'm

q^69

Housekeeper.
Okay. You're a lousy housekeeper. You're a lousy housekeeper.
You're a lousy mother. You're a lousy what else?

^^71

sorry. Okay.

Are you a lousy

The things that women are supposed

Most women are good at, you mean?

Q72

Okay.

^^73

Let's not say supposed to because that

to define

reason
'74.

it.

why

Well, this

is

A lot
I

of women

Right.

is

simply not the

say, ''Why? There

is

way

no particular

should be good at housekeeping."

the

way

feel.

But then

of people, which you know, which

^^75.

to be.

when well, the

is

majority

your society, right?

PAUL

130
Q76.

When

the society you live in

T^'':

You

agree

HAUCK, PH.D.

demands that you be

mother and a good housekeeper, it's hard

tude.

A.

to

a good

keep this

atti-

can't.

it's

hard to keep

you have to do

is

But

it.

harder

it's

if

you

What

don't.

ask yourself whether society and

all

your

friends are really correct. Are you a worthless person because

you're not a good mother and a good housekeeper and have

mean you
mean you have no value
any more, at least to you? Now maybe in order to be valuable
to these other people and friends of yours, maybe you have
a few other failings along with those? Does that

are not a good person? Does that

to be a

good mother because that

is

the only kind of people

they will respect. See? Okay. But does that

mean

just because

you don't have their respect that you can't have your own
respect? That is what has happened. You see when you get
depressed the way you do, you are saying, "I can't respect
myself any more and like myself. I am not important to me
any more because I am not important to them, because I don't
fulfill the expectations they want out of me." Now that is
when you get depressed, when you think you are not important to yourself any more. If you said to yourself, ''Well, I
am still very important to me. I am a wonderful person. Now,
that's not enough to make friends with those people. I am
afraid they are going to reject me because in order for me
to be friends with

However,

all

them

right, so

I'll

have to be a good mother,

too.

have to put up with that. So I'm

not going to have their friendship. See? That's just too bad."

you had your own selfrespect and still weren't a good mother and did not have their
friendship, would you be depressed? Would you feel guilty?

Would you be depressed then?

If

zeros in on the essence of the client's problem of depression: not the activating events (point A), her boyfriend's failure to
divorce his wife and marry her, and her disinterest in her children,
Dr.

Hauck

but her irrational belief system (point B). She is clearly telling herself
that she should be married after a six-month affair, and that she
is supposed to be a good mother; and that consequently it is awful
when she is not yet remarried and when she does not want to take
the responsibility for her children. He points out that she might

A YOUNG WOMAN WITH FEELINGS OF DEPRESSION

131

possibly accept herself as a person, despite her poor mothering,

if

she were only good at other things. But why, he asks (at least by
implication), does she have to be good at anything in order to accept
herself?

He

up

however, with an inelegant

I am still very important to me. I am a wonderful person. I happen to be a rotten
mother that's true but I am a wonderful human being." For practical purposes, this solution is all right since she can hold that she
is a wonderful person merely because she exists, in spite of her
failings. But philosophically, she has no more reason for calling herself a "wonderful person" than she has for calling herself a "bad
person." Both designations are definitional or tautological and cannot really be empirically proven.
More elegantly, the therapist could tr>^ to get her to accept the
fact that she is a person who does both good and bad deeds but
that she does not have to rate her self at all. Instead of trying to
help her gain self-respect which is still a rating of herself he could
try to help her gain self-acceptance, which is a more objective term
denoting that she exists, that she has both fortunate and unfortunate
traits, and that she can still choose to focus on enjoying herself
even if she always has poor traits and even if (in an extreme case)
these traits far outweigh her good ones. Self-acceptance (or selfchoosing) implies that she chooses to stay alive and seek joy (and
avoid pain) but not to rate herself.
finishes

this part of the session,

solution: that she could convince herself, "Well,

C'

know

would feel guilty or not, but I'd be awfully

any friends.
Well, of course. If you didn't have any friends, you would
be very lonely. That's true. But probably you could find some
other people. In all likelihood you would. People usually don't
go around rejecting others willy-nilly. You must have some
I

don't

if I

lonely without

'79.

redeeming features, some other things that they like about

some of your girl friends
for some failings that they have, can't you?
I don't have any girl friends.
You don't have any girl friends?

you. Just as you can probably criticize

QS2

don't like

women.

Oh.
QS4

Because they talk about

silly

things that don't

make any

sense,

PAUL

A.

HAUCK, PH.D.

when they had

their babies,

132

how many

like

and how much

and that operation, and

dumb things, and about a new recipe or something.

just
I

pains they had

this operation hurt

Really,

couldn't care less.

'p85.

Well, then, whose opinion are you worried about?

C86:

T^^:

Just society's, you

C8:

T^^:

Your mother?

don't know.

mean?

don't know.

Q90.

]y[y

mother,

T^h

Oh,

see.

my

sister,

my

ex-husband.

Okay. So then they are the ones. All right. Then

they are the ones you are talking about. "If they don't think
I'm a worthwhile mother, then therefore
while person; because in order for

am

not a worth-

to be a worthwhile

have to have their approval. In order to do that,

have to be a worthwhile mother." Right?

person,
I

me

0^2;

Yes.

T^^:

Then the question is, why^. Just suppose your mother doesn't
accept you, and your sister doesn't accept you, and your husband doesn't accept you. Does that mean you are worthless
and good for nothing?

Q94.

guess that's the problem. I'm not independent enough to

say

can as

long as

think I'm okay,

can

make

it. I

haven't

been that independent. I'm too dependent on other people.

That's a big problem in itself. I mean you know I know

should not be so dependent on other people.

the divorce, the divorce

how

was

my

idea in the

When

first place.

got

And

had the guts to do it, I don't know, because I thought,

"Well, I can do it. I'll show them. I can do it." And well, for
a while I had a little trouble financially because I never had
I

to handle

with

money

me and

got that

all

before.

figured out a

my

down
budget and everything, and we

Then

brother-in-law sat

straightened out, and I've been doing okay with

that.

why didn't you blame yourself for being a poor budgeter?

didn't have to. He blamed me. I didn't have to blame myself.

^95.

Well,

C^^:

Everybody
T^^:

else is

doing

Well, that's the point.

it

for me.

You

could have blamed yourself and

gotten very depressed over that. You could have said, "Here

A YOUNG WOMAN WITH FEELINGS OF DEPRESSION

I

am. I'm an adult.

don't. Aren't

should

know how

133

to handle

money, and

awful?" and gone on into a deep depression

over that, couldn't you?

C:

Yes.

T^^:

But you

didn't. Instead of

What

very interesting.

blaming yourself, you did something

did you do?

C^^^:

Corrected myself.

T^^^:

Yes, you corrected the problem as

much

as you could, didn't

you? You did not focus on what a worthless person you are.

You focused on

the problem instead.

By focusing on

the prob-

lem
C^^^:

Tio^:
C^^^:

X105.
(^106.

really didn't care.

why I even did anything

one way or another.

can't understand

about it, because I didn't care

Care about what?

were paid or whether I was spending the money

the way I was supposed to. I just had the attitude well, what
the heck, you know. I'll get some money some day.
^^Y^QY^ was this now?
When I was having trouble with the budget and like bills
being two weeks past due. I never I didn't worry about it.
If the bills

Maybe

should have, but

the money."

didn't.

You know, no big

thought, "Okay,

thing.

I'll

And everybody

get

kept

saying, "You've got to pay your

bills on time. You've got to

pay them when they are due." Okay. So I had my brother-inlaw set up a budget for me, and I had nothing to do with
it. I told him all my bills and what the payments were, and
he wrote it all down and looked at the calendar, and Friday
I write out the checks for whatever he says I am supposed
to pay. But that's not being independent. I'm dependent upon

him

to

work out

my

budget, for

if

he hadn't done

it, I

couldn't

have.
T^^^:

see

what you mean. But

my

other point

is

that you did

not blame yourself because you were an inadequate budgeter.

You

could have blamed yourself because there

know how

is

a big failure.

budget your money,

See? Really, if you don't
you might very well run into problems with it. All right. But
to

you didn't say, "I'm a terrible budgeter; therefore, I'm a

ble person."
too. Isn't it?

You
But

terri-

didn't say that, although that's a big failure,

in this case

you are saying, "Look, I'm not

PAUL

134

only a bad mother,

am

a bad person."

behavior makes you a bad person. The

My

A.

HAUCK, PH.D.

point

is

that no

moment you

decide

that you are a bad person because you have a fault or a weak-

you are going to get depressed. But you could still

like yourself despite the fact that occasionally you don't want
children and occasionally you don't think you are being the
greatest mother in the world. But you can still like and respect
yourself and not blame yourself. You'd be surprised to find
you wouldn't be depressed. You still wouldn't be a good
mother, would you? But you would not be depressed. That
is what you are seeing me about, how to get over your depression. And I am sure you know how to do that by never blaming yourself. Don't blame yourself, and you will feel much,
much better. And then if you sense you have a problem and
ness, then

you want to overcome that problem, by not feeling depressed

you will have the energy that you can apply to the problem

and

say, "Okay,

deal with

want

at least.

now

look.

guess

am

children. I'm not raising

not doing a great

them the way

really

them at all anyway, sometimes

However, I do; and therefore, I am going to have
how to handle this problem, so now what can I do?

to. I

to learn

my

wish

didn't have

What can I learn by my past experiences that will enable

me to be a better mother? What did I do last time that was
wrong? How can I profit by my mistakes so they teach me
how to be a better mother next time and so I don't repeat
any mistakes?" Now,

if

you spent your time looking at

rather than crucifying yourself for

that would be. Are you following

it,

look at

how much

it,

better

me now?

The essence of the rational-emotive approach, during this session,

in Dr. Hauck's T^"^ response. He sums up here the RET position
that the client cannot possibly be a bad person, no matter what
is

bad act she performs. He focuses particularly on her depression, since

is her worst presenting symptom; but in the process he may
underemphasize some other points. Thus, in C^^ the client indicates
that she is too dependent on other people, and he does not really
tackle this problem of hers here, though he does point it out in other
sessions. He could have shown her that her feelings of worthlessness
and depression are intimately involved with, and in some ways are

that

WOMAN WITH FEELINGS OF DEPRESSION

A YOUNG

135

same thing as, her feelings of dependency. For her basic philosophy seems to be: ''Unless people accept me, I am worthless." And
the

with this idea, she could hardly be anything hut dependent. Moreover,
he could point out, once she recognizes her dependency, she condemns
herself for that 3ind she thereby ends up by being depressed, (1)
because she cannot guarantee that she will do well and be acceptable
to others, and (2) because she has a weakness that we call dependency.
In

T^^^",

the therapist

tells

the client that she could

despite the fact that occasionally she doesn't

mean

that

if

she

is

still

like herself

children and

may wrongly

not the greatest mother in the world. She

him, however, to

want

is

interpret

continually, rather than oc-

motherhood functions, she is pretty

worthless. So it would be better if he would make clear to her that
she could accept herself (rather than like herself, which is again
an inelegant term) even if she were always inept as a mother.

casionally, irresponsible in her

C108

Yes, but

'piOB

You

Clio

don't

don't what?

don't know^ exactly

sibility of

it. I

what

mean I

don't I don't

feel the

don't feel the respon-

importance of disciplin-

ing the children and teaching them this and that. If

I

'pill.

probably would be doing

did,

it.

Yes.

But I don't. Even if I wasn't depressed about it and blaming

myself and so forth, I still don't think I would do anything
constructive about it because I don't care that much whether
I

'piia.

discipline

them

or not.

you won't be depressed. You

are only depressed because you are blaming yourself because
you don't care. If you really don't think there is any problem,
and you don't even mind not yelling at the kids and disciplin-

All right.

From now

on, then,

ing them so much, then relax.

you
114.

'pil5

Que
'pil7

will raise better children

Maybe you

than your

want them to mind, but I don't

making them mind. Laziness?

If

you are

right,

sister, for

if

Maybe

example.

w^ant to do the w^ork of

and they turn out okay, then

they turn out bad, then it's

That's right. Well, mostly it w\\\ be your

Okay. But

are right.

all

fine.

my

fault.

fault again.

PAUL

136

HAUCK, PH.D.

A.

C118:

Okay.

T^i^:

But how do you know? You have to take the chance.

are the children now? Are you happy with them?

0120;

Yes.

T^2i;

Okay.

What

don't you like about

What

it?

is

How

happening

to

them?
0122.

I have to tell them

something and end up
screaming at them, which doesn't do a bit of good anyway.
Doesn't that motivate you towards wanting to know different
methods of handling them? It is obvious that what you are
doing now is not bringing you a great deal of pleasure. You
are not going to enjoy your children if that goes on, are you?
Well, maybe if you studied child rearing methods and we
talked about that, for example, maybe we could teach you
how to be a more efficient mother and show you what you
are doing that brings this behavior on this unpleasant behavior that you are getting tired of. You may be encouraging
it without your knowing it.
I think I said something about I wanted my children to love
me, or something like that. I'm afraid of making my children
mad at me or something which is wrong, but I still feel that
way anyway. And this one guy told me, he said, '1 don't care
if my children love me or not as long as they respect me."
I can't see this attitude at all. How can they respect you if
they don't love you? What he calls respect is fear, and I don't
want my children to be afraid of me, or I don't want them
to mind because they are afraid they are going to get a beating or a spanking or I don't know maybe I expect too much
out of humanity. I think people should be good because it's

^eii^ they don't mind, and they talk back.

more than two or three times

'pi23.

C^^'*:

what

And
I

to do

to do, not because they are afraid of being punished.

I

don't

think that's what

know how

to tell them,

to

think children should be, too, but

make them be

'Tou have got

that way.

to do this, or

you

will

don't

want

get a spank-

you give them that impression.

You are still teaching them that they have to behave in a
certain way, or they will be punished. I don't know whether
ing," or even

it is

if

you don't say

right or whether

mind because

it is

it,

wrong, but

feel that

they should

A YOUNG WOMAN WITH FEELINGS OF DEPRESSION

r^vz^.

Would you behave because

137

of that reason

when you were

child?
C^^^:

remember when I was little, but when I was a teen-ager

never
I was
I can remember from probably age ten on up.
And I did things that I was told to do or supposed to do because
I was supposed to and because it was the right thing to do,
not because of fear of punishment because I was never
can never remember being spanked. My father slapped me
I

don't

across the face a couple of times and for, in

my

opinion, no

reason, which infuriated me, rather than disciplining me. It

it made me very rebellious at that.
remember getting a spanking. But then I
feel it didn't help me because I was spoiled, and I never did
anything wrong. I mean I never

didn't do a bit of good;

But

^127.

can never

you don't show people that there are unfortunate

is going to
get them to change? Why should they change?

Well,

if

consequences from certain behaviors, then what

Q128.

Well, can't people just

T^29.

want

to be good?

think a lot of people want to be good. They would

be most

all like

them at least would like to be good. However,

how do you get them to do that? For example, you want to
be good to yourself. You don't want to be depressed. Right?
All right, but what has brought you here is finally the painful
consequences of your not knowing how to do things any dif-

to

of

You have been suffering because you have

been making certain mistakes. There has been, in a sense,
a punishment to you because of your incorrect behavior. Right?
That's why you are here. You get depressed, which is something that happened because you don't know how to do it
ferently. Right?

any

You behave wrongly in some sense, you get

is painful, and now you are coming to
to how to remove that pain. Well, if your chil-

differently.

depressed and that

me

for help as

dren don't experience any kind of pain for certain behavior,

how
is

are they going to

to tell

them

that?

know

How

is wrong? What
know autom.atically
bad? He thinks that

that that behavior

should a child

whether or not a behavior is good or

screaming back at you is pretty good because he can get his
way by that, can't he? From his point of view it makes good
sense to him to scream back at you because he can get his

PAUL

138

way, or he can stay up

He

reduces pain.

It

to

the only way you are going to get

by making that behavior somewhat
don't mean you have to spank him. It may be some-

is

times that you might have

But somehow

called for.

displeasure to

him

to,

but that

is

want

always what

some

now than I used

to. It's

me anymore. I get more of

not getting me the pleasure

once got; therefore, I'm going to have to change."

all

change

it?

You have

You

out by himself. But

not being really hurt by his behavior,

to

is

so that he will say to himself, "Hey, wait

are asking the child to figure this

he

isn't

his behavior has got to bring

a minute. This isn't working for

a headache
that

reduces pain by arguing.

And

change that

painful.

He

HAUCK, PH.D.

has turned out to be a pretty smart method

for him, hasn't it?

him

later.

A.

if

why would he

to supply the huxt, mainly in

the form of frustration or in the form of penalty. If they

don't do

what you

say, then

we

will

have to go over this

in

more detail at another time. But one of the things you are
going to have to learn, if they don't behave, is to penalize
them for misbehaving. You set the rule; you tell them what
the penalty will be. If they break the rule, they get the penalty,

and that's all. Then just let them suffer with their mistakes.
Next time, they will think before they do the same thing.
That way, incidentally, you may soon get to the point where
you will be controlling your children, and after you control
them and get them to behave more like what you want, what
will happen to your feelings about them?
C130:

Yd

T^^^:

You'd

(]i32.

them better.
them better. Right. And once you like them
then what would happen with the depression?
J

like

like

guess

would

feel

am

doing a better job, and

better,

would

not feel so guilty.

'pias.

Right. Mainly in the next sessions

what we have

to talk about

again are the dynamics of depression, on the one hand, and

also

some sound mothering techniques on how

to handle chil-

dren better than you have been. Right?

C^'^'*:

just an excuse, but I don't get home until 5:30

and then fix supper and do the dishes and give them
their baths and go to bed. It doesn't leave too much time

Really?

it's

at night

for play or anything.

A YOUNG

WOMAN WITH FEELINGS OF DEPRESSION

T^-^'^:

Yes, right.

Q136.

^j^(j

You have

139

a tough job.

then, well, I've been w^orking weekends, too, at the hospi-

tal.
'pi'i7.

Well, okay, you've got a bad situation. We'll have to talk about

what we can come up with some kind

will help you to become as efficient as

of suggestions that
possible.

Because

think that will help your feelings after you get them changed
to

more what you

like.

Let's talk about this again.

Okay?

Hauck spends a good deal of time showing the client that

would be far better if she paid more attention to becoming a
more effective mother than to condemning herself for being an
Dr.

it

The techniques of handling her children that he

discusses with her are correctly included in RET, because the rational-emotive therapist does not hesitate to instruct his clients in some
of the more efficient methods of childrearing, sex techniques, business methods, and so on. The danger here, however, is that the
therapist may get sidetracked from more important considerations.
Thus, in C^^^ the client wonders whether she is lazy, because she
wants to get good results from her children without doing the work
to get these results. Dr. Hauck lets this point drop for the present
(though he picked it up mentally and worked on it later). Frequently,
however, he would show her right here that she is indeed ''lazy"
ineffective one.

with her children because she is irrationally believing that she

should get good results with them without putting in any amount
of work. He would also show her that she is following a short-range
rather than a longer-range hedonistic view in this respect: striving
mainly for the pleasure of the moment (tending to her own desires

and neglecting

to discipline her children) and not for the greater

pleasure of the future (enjoying their good behavior).
In T^2^, where Dr. Hauck attempts to show the client some of

the principles of behavior modification in rearing her children, he

says:

"One

of the things you are going to have to learn,

don't behave,

he

is

is

to penalize

them

correct; but his use of the

She obviously doesn't have

behavioral results (though

And

if

to
it

for misbehaving."

if

they

To some degree,

term "have to" may be overstated.

penalize her children to get better

might well

the therapist stresses have

to's,

be better if she does so).

got

to's,

you must's, and so

often unwittingly encouraging the client to use these

misleading kinds of overgeneralizations and absolutes. Thus, if the
client believes that she has to penalize her children in order to get
on, then he

is

PAUL

140

A.

HAUCK, PH.D.

them

to behave, and she actually does not adhere to this imperative,

she will almost certainly make herself inordinately guilty for not

doing what she supposedly has to do. But if the therapist shows
it would be better if she disciplines her children
with some form of penalization, and she then fails to do so, she
may more easily conclude, "Isn't it too bad that I didn't do what
would be better," thereby making herself concerned but not guilty.
In the closing statement of the session, T^^^, Dr. Hauck rightly
indicates to the client that they can work on suggestions to help
her become more efficient with her children; but he implies that
these suggestions, and the good they do, will help her get her feelings
straightened out. Actually, in RET we would not want the client
to feel better about herself because she was handling her children
more efficiently. Rather, we would want her to accept herself fully
whether or not she becomes more responsible and effective in mothering her children. Greater efficacy in this respect is highly to be
desired for several reasons, but not because she then would be a
more worthwhile person, who could consequently like herself.
her, instead, that

FOURTH SESSION
How

have you been?

No depression.
me about that.

Fine.
Tell
I

T^:

C^:
T^:

C^:

T^:

10.

don't

know what

to tell you.

guess that

just kept busy

enough that I haven't thought about anything, or something.

I had no reason to be depressed. The past week the kids were
in Nebraska with my mother, and I just kept busy.
They stayed in Nebraska?
For a week. They are supposed to come home today.
Well, I'm curious. Why aren't you depressed now? What has
happened? Is it just the fact that they are not around, or
were you depressed when they were around?
I don't know for sure, but I think well, I've been dating
a new guy, and I've just been so busy with him I haven't
had time to think about myself, I guess.
You are implying that before when you were dating this other
fellow, you got depressed over him?
Yes.

did once in a while, but since

started dating this

A YOUNG

WOMAN WITH FEELINGS OF DEPRESSION

new

one,

141

haven't even wanted to see the other one or even

thought about him or anything. And Vm glad.

recall you saying that this was somewhat disturbing to
you this relationship. Again, what was it?

C12

He was married.
And what was depressing about
Well, he said he

was going

all

that?

to get a divorce

and

all this,

and

he didn't; and we've been seeing each other for about six

months or
lo.

Right.

so.

You were being strung along and getting nowhere.

And I suggested you were getting depressed

feeling sorry for yourself because

life

you weren't doing anything about

it.

because you were

was kind

of dull, and

Correct?

Right.

So what prompted you to drop him and go see

someone else?
Well, I was dating other guys anyway. But, you know like,
I would just have a couple drinks well, I don't drink. I drink
7-Up, but I go to places where they drink. And I have 7-Up
or something and dance a while, and I'd go home. No big
date or anything like that. And it just so happened one night
that the guy that I'm dating happened to be my ex-husband's

All right.

And well,

best friend.

he used to be. They're

but they're not best friends.

one place where

we

danced, and

he asked

me

to

And he was

usually go, and he asked

we danced

friends,

still

there one night at

me

to dance,

the rest of the evening.

And

go out the next night, and we went

out;

and
then

and

ever since then we've been together almost every day.

'19.

So you're trying to tell me that you replaced this other fellow,

and life is lovely again. Would you have been able to do that
if

Q20
'p21

you hadn't come to see me?

don't know.

Chances are that might have happened anyway, hm?

C22
^23

Yes. So have

Q24

Oh,

It's possible.

think

depressed,

so.
I

been of any value to you?

Because now whenever

start feeling a little

try to talk to myself like you know, "Well, are

you feeling sorry for yourself? Are you feeling guilty or whatever? What's going on here?

And

quit

it

and get busy" which

PAUL

142

A.

HAUCK, PH.D.

I never would have done before. I would have just gone on

and stayed in a depressed state until somebody else brought
me out of it. I can do it by myself now.

T25:

see.

C^^:

did get a

it.

My

thing.

little upset one day, but I talked myself out of

ex-husband said he wanted to talk to me about some-

And whenever

something

he says anything like that, it is usually

have done wrong or something he thinks he

should correct
T2":

Yes.

C^^:

And

me

about.

he did not have time to talk right then because he had

called

me from

work.

And

so

know what it was, and

make things worse than

didn't

I started worrying and tended to

what they are in my mind. And then I got to thinking, "Well,
he said it wasn't it's not serious, and there's no hurry. We
can talk later. So it must not be anything too bad, or he would
"
have said, 'I want to see you tonight and talk about it.'
So then I just decided well, I couldn't think of anything I
had done so terribly wrong, so I just talked myself out of

worrying about
T^^:
C^^:

And

it.

what might you have done?

I would have just gotten nervous and started crying and worrying and thinking, "What did I do now?" and "Gee, he's
going to yell at me." And, you know, just more or less worry
about it and try to think about what things were, and think
ordinarily

up worse things than possibly it even could be.

could have been pretty nervous and depressed

T^^:

And you

C32:

Right.

T33;

_by the time you really got to talk to him. Right? Well, now.
Why did you do that? You are suggesting that our talks helped

C^^:

Because

both

you handle these things better?

I as I say, before I would have just gone to pieces

and worried and fretted

this

time

didn't.

until

found out what

said to myself, "Well, okay,

it
I

was.

And

did some-

thing wrong, you know?"

T^"^:

Yes. Well, that sounds like real improvement, doesn't

C^"^^:

It

T^^:

Because

it?

sure does.
I

wasn't there to handle

it,

and

it is

something quite

WOMAN WITH FEELINGS OF DEPRESSION

A YOUNG

different for you, as you know.

Santa Claus? Who?

handled?

Who made

that difference?

the difference in

how

it

was

did.

C-^:

T^^:

Yes, you did.

then, aren't
It

C^:

Who made

143

looks like

So okay. Maybe we

are learning something,

we?
it.

not clear, from the

first part of this session, whether the

been undepressed because she almost accidentally happens
to have met a new and more attractive lover, with whom she has
been busily diverted, or whether she has really benefited from the
previous three sessions with therapist. But her response in C^'* indicates that she is now more willing to accept herself with possible
wrongdoings and that therefore she may well be becoming less anxious and depressed when unpleasant events occur. The goal of RET,
of course, is not to merely help her find pleasant diversions, such
as a new lover, but to help her refuse to depress herself even when
things go wrong in her life.

It is

client has

T^^:

Now

Okay.
this

new

with respect to the other thing the handling of

have you are normally being

relationship that you

dated by a

new

fellow and falling into a

usually pretty uplifting, and

a great deal to that.

You had

new romance.

don't see that

new

That's

would contribute

relationship going here,

which would have ordinarily pulled you out of your depression.

I am asking myself, ''Have I been of any value to you there?"

And

mood

wonder whether or not you would have been in the

to go out and strike up a new relationship and take

advantage of

it

if

you had not been working on your prior

depression.
C^^:

Right. No, because

as

was doing

probably would have been staying

before.

home

wouldn't have gone anywhere.

wouldn't have had the opportunity to meet anyone. Before,

I

was

T:

Oh,

C^^:

And

just staying

home and

feeling sorry for myself.

see.

not going anywhere. Just

thing like that

home.

I'd

maybe once

week

go for a couple hours, and then

or some-

I'd

go back

PAUL

144

T'*^:

A.

HAUCK, PH.D.

good enough mood to really

go out and swing around a little bit, and in this way you
were able to meet somebody and change the course of your

This way,

life

take

you were

it,

in a

again.

0^6;

Right.

T4-:

Okay. Good.

C^^:

I've also

been thinking about talking to my ex-husband and

telling him that I want to have the kids back because I feel
confident and in the mood to have them back. However, I
hesitate because I think it might be too soon, and I'm not
going to rush into a decision like that right away. But I have

had a feeling which

think

is

good that

thought about want-

ing the kids back.

T^^:

That you are capable again. You are a strong person. You
are in control of yourself. And, "I can handle the kids again"
is what you are saying, right?

C^:

T^^-

Yes. Wonderful.

think

so.

What

does he think about that? Have you

asked him?
C^2:

Oh, no.

T'^^:

You haven't

C^'*:

I'm not going

T^^:

Oh. Until you feel stronger?

C^:

Right. Until

want them

said

yet.

it

to.

am

absolutely sure. Right

now

just think

back.

T^^:

Yes.

C^^:

But when I am absolutely sure, then because if I say it now

and then I get the kids back and something happens and I
go back, then it's not good for the kids.
That's right. We want to be cautious about this. Then we
can talk about other things that you do with the kids, mainly
your self-discipline, your following through. How have you
been doing on that?

T-^^:

C6:

Pretty good.

T^i;

Tell

C^^:

me

about that.

it I don't know well,

the fellow that I am dating is divorced and has three children
and has custody of the kids, and so most of the time we have
been spending with the kids. We have had the kids with us
don't

know

if

it I don't know

if

A YOUNG

WOMAN WITH FEELINGS OF DEPRESSION

all

the time

145

and most of the time. And we go out after we

bed then we go out together. And I don't

put the kids to

know
his

if I

can handle

kids. Now,

not supposed

to,

my own this

like, if
I

tell

is

the whole

thing but

they are doing something they are

them

''Don't," or

or "Straighten up," or whatever.

And

"Stop doing that,"

don't just say

it off

my head and forget it, like I was doing with my

own, you know I kind of absentmindedly tell them to stop
it and then ignore them. I really don't know, because I haven't
seen my kids for a week, and I don't know if I would be
the top of

the

same with them or

not.

^63.

What about your self-discipline

your own affairs better?

C^^:

That's really hard to say. Well, the last time

went home and

to bed until

However,

said to myself as

T^^:

we

was here

discussed, "I'm not going

And

did

it.

been home enough to do anything

just been gone. I haven't been home. Of course,

really haven't

since then. I've

all

home? Have you managed

do so-and-so and such-and-such."

much

to do because
day and then I'm gone.

there isn't that

work

at

am

not home. I'm at

You are there by yourself so there isn't you haven't had that
much of an opportunity, although you seem to be beginning.
You began to use a little bit more with his children. And then
you just started using a little bit more self-discipline
home, but you haven't had a real opportunity yet.

C^:

And

T":

Well, yes,

in

your

I haven't been put under any pressure to do it. This is

one thing that bothers me. If somebody says it has got to
be done by a certain time or something like that if I'm under
pressure lots of times I get well, I get too nervous. I can't
handle it or something.

referring

understand that. That wasn't really what I was

to. I was referring to simply boring daily chores
I

when you had to discipline yourself.

you are very nervous you want to do it and
can't. It is not a matter of discipline, but you get so nervous
and so rattled that you can't do it. So we have to distinguish

that had to be done and

Sometimes

if

between sometimes not doing a job because you are nerv^ous

and sometimes not doing a job because you are undisciplined.

PAUL

146
'68.

think,

and other people mentioned

quite so scatterbrained.
'J'69

am

using

it

my

A.

HAUCK, PH.D.

too, that

am

not

head now.

Oh, really.

That shows something anyway.

Of course. Shows maybe you are settling down a little bit.
Becoming a little bit more mature, a little more self-assured,
right? Delightful.

The

client is

fourth session.

You

look happier.

by no means cured at the end of

As she notes

in C^^, she still reacts

this part of the

badly to pressure

and gets nervous when something has got to be done by a certain

time. But she has stopped mooning around the house and consequently has been able to go out and meet a satisfactory partner.
She also has been able to handle her new boyfriend's children. She
feels strong enough to ask her husband if she can take back her
own children. And others have noted that she is much less scatterbrained. Considering how anxious, sobbing, and depressed she was
only a few weeks ago, it is highly probable that the rational-emotive
approach taken by the therapist has been of considerable help to
her. In the course of several subsequent sessions, she maintained
her gains, was able to handle her own children much more satisfactorily, and remained undepressed. So Dr. Hauck's direct intervention not only seemed to work, but appeared to get highly satisfactory
results in a brief period of time.

CHAPTER

A Husband

and Wife

Who Have

Not Had Intercourse

During Thirteen Years of Marriage
JOHN

The husband,

M. GULLO, M.A.

in the following case, is a 37-year-old teacher

and

his

a 39-year-old dietician. Although they have been married

for thirteen years and have had a considerable amount of counseling,
they have not yet been able to have successful intercourse.

wife

is

FIRST SESSION
what seems to be the difficulty?
what led us here was that we have made some attempts
off and on in our marital life to have intercourse and have
children; and we seem to have a mental block there.

T^:

Well,

H^:

Well,

T^:

Um-hm.
And what one

last

might adopt a

child.

H^:

feeling

if

we

maybe we
break down this

desperate thing we thought

This might help us to

got involved with an adopted baby.

this is a negative reason for

doing

this;

but

we

Now

felt this

realize

might

be an answer. And, of course, that led us to the child welfare

H^:

The director felt that we ought to make an

appointment with somebody that we can talk about this problem to. And he mentioned you and we made the appointment.
So that's where we are.
Okay. Now, have you been able to have intercourse at all in
your married life?
Uh, I don't think so-

W^:

No.

H^:

Except that I guess that

place over here.

T^:

first

succeed.

147

attempt we made we didn't

148

JOHN

How

T^:

Yeah. Okay.

^10.

Thirteen years.

Ti^:

Thirteen years?

W12:

Um-hm.
And how

T^^:

M.

GULLO, M.A.

long have you been married now?

old are you?

W^^:

Fm thirty-nine.

H^^:

Thirty-seven.

T^^;

Thirty-seven. Okay.

H^^:

Yeah, yeah,

had to stop and think. (Chuckles)

Now, what happens when you start to

have intercourse? Do you get an erection, or are you unable
to maintain it or what?

some

don't think I'm able to achieve this. There's

mental block there at this time. So, therefore,

we just put this thing in our background.
sort of a

T18:

Um-hm.

H^^:

We

T20.

What kind

H^^:

The

T22:

Yeah.

JJ23.

Well

T24:

W^^:

Yeah?
That was the

H^^:

Yeah, that was the

we've given this a lot of thought over the years,

know,
you
and at times we've tried to think this thing out
rationally. And we've sought help, and it seems like the help
hasn't been help, and so we've just sort oh, just thought we'd
wait till maybe a more convenient time to work this out. And
then of course, as I say, the years go by.
feel that

first

Dr. S

of help have you had previously?

help
at

was did

you ever hear of did you ever know

Temple University?

(bitterly),

had

minutes of help from him.

five

year of our marriage.

first

year of our marriage, when we knew

wrong here. And he put a student that
was working under him with me, and with the fee that I
first

that something was

had

to

pay going

to school at that time,

and we had

a bad

we it just didn't work out. That's

first attempt. And then after that,

rapport between him, and

all.

So there was the

probably a year or two after that I did seek another psychiatrist.

Didn't charge

(laughs), 'cause

just

seemed

like

prescribed some

felt

me

anything. Which

he wasn't giving

he wasn't interested.
pills to

relax me.

felt

bad about

me his attention. It
And he gave me

And but

it

didn't

seem

A HUSBAND AND WIFE WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

149

W^^:

anything came out of that either. He was a fellow that

taught psychology at the college, and I don't think he was
He was one of my professors.
Yeah.
While I was going to school.
like

W'^^:

H28:

H^^^:

And

W^\

No.

H'^^:

Then then we

W^"^:

don't think he really understood the problem.

tried

think, at the time, that he thought

to school, holding

And I
me to
T-^^:

Yeah.

W"^-^:

But

down

just shouldn't be going

a job, being married,

think he thought that was

quit school, which

finally

my

problem.

did which

more or

less.

He encouraged
I

finally did.

don't think he really understood our problem. Because

there were so

many

other students that were going to school

that were overcoming the obstacles. So

wasn't

don't feel that

it.

T36:

Um-hm.

H^^:

Then the next thing we went

to the University of Wisconsin

and we sought a doctor there about either this parproblem, or didn't we mention artificial insemination

Hospital,
ticular

at that particular time?

W38:
H^^:

Um-hm.
And we really

didn't get

any help from him. He was a medical

doctor.

from there I mean from the Univer-

W"^^:

How far were we living

H^^:

About ninety

W^^:

Well, they said they were going to set up appointments for

sity of

Wisconsin?
miles.

me. So, that again was kind of a problem getting back and
forth.

H^^:

And

W-^^:

Yeah, that-

following that, was that the last one

think

H^-^:

W^^:

that we together have

till

we moved

here?

so.

tried to get help from.

There are

times that both of us separately were going to medical doctors

and would ask for advice. But we could never get any help

from them

either.

Any

doctor that ever examined

me

told

JOHN

150

me

that there wasn't any reason that

But they didn't seem

T^^:

Um-hm.

H^H.

^^Q have

and

to give us

M.

GULLO, M.A.

couldn't have a child.

any hope for the

situation.

mean, we've looked into our own backgrounds

we've sort of rationalized out these reasons.

feel

we know

that

it's

wrong and everything. But

it's

And

like you

know, you're taught not to touch a hot stove, and when you
get up to it, you withdraw. And it just seems to be that
reaction here.
T^^:

Yes, that's right.

this false

H'^^:

way

And so the point is that you have to overcome

of looking at things.

Yes, and, of course, one time

I

had a

on

false concept

think that's the case.

all

it

of

me whether
you know. But I don't

really bothered
life,

feel I'm all right,

and

dislike people

who have false views on things when they can have right
views. And so here I am in this particular instance, which
we know that somehow we've been in a bad or wrong groove
in this particular thing. It

for us

hasn't

seems

been for one

so easy to get out,

and yet

reason or another.

I think I can show you what things are going on in

your head that are perpetuating this problem. There are
usually two major reasons. What we want to find out from
you are just exactly what some of the details are of one or
both of these reasons. Reason A is fear of failure, and reason
B is sexual puritanism, which usually is involved here also.

T-^^:

Okay,

H'^^:

think

and
T'^^:

it

it's

think

probably a combination between both of those;

we both

recognize that.

Okay. So then the problem

is,

as in

any superstition since

one of the best ways of describing any emotional problem it's just superstitious thinking. Now, how do
you get over the black cat superstition? How do you get over
this is probably

any superstition, such as the one that breaking a mirror

going to give you seven years' bad luck?
PJ54.

Well, the thing to do

T^^:

Yeah!

H^^:

that God doesn't

T-^^:

Right.

is

to break the mirror

strike

and see

you dead or something.

is

A HUSBAND AND WIFE

WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

151

Even though the therapist, John Gullo, as yet knows very little
about the specific circumstances leading up to this couple's sexual
problem, he takes a chance and guesses that it is largely caused
by fear of failure and sexual puritanism. He does this largely on
theoretical grounds and on the basis of his prior experience with
sexually failing couples. Although

it

may seem presumptuous

of

him

to proclaim his interpretation so early in the therapeutic process,

is a high chance that his guess has some
and that it may well save this couple considerable time,
trouble, and expense. If his guess happened to be wrong, or if the
clients resisted it, he might well backtrack on it. But, as is so frequently the case in RET, it seems to ring a bell with the clients
and thereby furthers therapeutic progress.
RET practitioners are frequently accused of having an authoritarian or dogmatic manner when they hazard these kinds of interpretations so early in the course of therapy. In one way, however,
they are simply being more honest and direct than psychoanalytic,
client-centered, experiential, or existentialist therapists all of
whom have their own distinct hypotheses about the client's disturbances as soon as they obtain a little data on his problem, but most
of whom subtly and long-windedly try to get him to see "for himself"
what their hypotheses are and actually (and more dishonestly) indoctrinate him with their views. In RET, the client is fairly and squarely
told, usually quickly in the game, what the therapist's hypotheses
about him are. Then he has many chances to challenge, resist, and
bring up evidence against these hypotheses if he does not wish to
accept them. If he does accept them (as seems to be most frequently
the case in virtually all kinds of therapy), he and the therapist save
a great deal of time. In this particular case, both clients seem to

he assumes that there

validity

be quite ready to accept the therapist's initial interpretations; therefore, he proceeds in a fairly rapid-fire manner.
jjss.

Well,

we

realize that, except

intercourse. All right,

we

when

it

comes

say that; but

to

when

something like
it comes time,

then nothing happens. (Laughs)

W59:

We'renot

breaking

H^:

It's

W61.

We're really dandy at talking to each other; and boy, we're

really going to do it! And then
I think I got drunk one time. I thought maybe that might

H^2.

help,

like,

you know.

JOHN

152

M. GULLO, M.A.

W^^:

(Laughs)

T^^:

Listen, that's a darn good technique to use, sometimes.

H^^:

But

X66.

Well, you had too much.

it

just put

me

H67:

So-

T68.

Well, there are a

to sleep, see. (Laughs)

number

of helpful things which you can do

relaxed in this process. But what we want

some details now, 'cause I may even have to
teach you some aspects of sex play to help you out in this

to get

you a

little

to do is to get

Now

one technique which you can do to help

you relax is just what you said a minute ago: Have a few
beers or have a glass of wine or something.
connection

also.

T^^:

That does help a little!

That will help you sometimes.

W^^:

And what happened. You

H69:

did that once and got so stuffed

you said you were uncomfortable or something, and

wellW73. You know!

H^2.

I well it

matter

H^^:

Yeah,

W^^:

(Laughs)

T^^:

Okay. Now, how often do you attempt to have any kind of

H^^:

Well, before

doesn't

sex?

we were married in fact one of the I think

one of the reasons we decided to get married was because
we thought we just couldn't contain ourselves any longer, and
we didn't want to break any moral codes that we had accepted
as being valid and so forth. So we got married. And I think
at the beginning there we did try when we first got married.
And then we felt that because we were so busy, and with
school, and there's a lot of pressure that we thought we'd
wait a little bit on this till we got settled down. But then oh,
occasionally after that

it

would come up, you know, but then

And down through the years

we'd quickly put it aside again.

it's just been occasional.
W''^:

Until, for awhile,

it

went

for years without us even discussing

it.

H^^:

For awhile we thought maybe it was the best thing that we

just just put it completely out. And we realized this wasn't

A HUSBAND AND WIFE WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

the solution either.

And

the last year,

more and more interested

in

I'd say,

153

we're becoming

doing something about

this.

T^^:

Yeah. Now, are you able to achieve any possible satisfaction

masturbating?

Hi:

Yeah.

T^^:

And how

often do you engage in that?

H^^:

Oh, just occasionally.

T^^:

And how about

W^-^:

Not too

Maybe

it's

probably accidental.

you?

often.

X86.

Well, are you able to obtain satisfaction in that

W^^i

A very little.
Now have either

T^^:

way?

of you attempted to masturbate in each

other's presence?
H89:

No.

W^O;

No.

T^^:

Well, this

is

another technique that you could use to get both

of you interested in each other.

you,

it

doesn't really

make much

in each other's presence.

The both of you, or one of

difference, could

Then you

will

masturbate

maintain some degree

of excitement, and then you can try to have intercourse.

as soon as you penetrate her,

maintain his erection

this will

W92.
T^^:

is close

what you can do

to help

And
him

your legs over his penis. Because

put pressure on the penis and keep the blood in there.

Um-hm.
help you. So there are three or four things that you

It will

can do now, technique-wise, to help you with this problem.

But now we have to get down, more specifically, to just exactly

what you are saying to yourself when you get ready to engage
in sex

H94.

with your wife.

What happens?

Well, I've thought a great deal about this, and

feel

it

goes

I was told or taught to be true

young and inexperienced. See, when
I was born my mother had a cesarean operation, which about
killed her. And I think I had another sister that was born
and that died very shortly after some childbirth trouble.
And she my mother was sort of a neurotic woman, you
know. Of course, as a child you don't really understand these
things, all these things. But you could feel the emotion. And,

back to a
w^hen

lot of

was

things that

very, very

JOHN

154

was always a

it

GULLO, M.A.

feeling that anything that has to do with

sex or childbirth or anything

is

something that

and brings you to the point of death,

and is

is

terrible

evil, I

mean

up in there. I think this is the opinion that

came away with when I left my home, which I know is

all
I

M.

of this

is

tied

And when

think when I when we suggest this

to each other and when we maybe decide to try this, I think
of these this comes up very hard in my mind: that I might
be hurting her, I might cause her death or disfigure her, or
bring her misery. I mean, to put her in the same state that
my mother was in, which I don't wish I didn't want wish
for anyone. 'Cause I think that my mother didn't have a very
happy life. I think that's the feeling that I get.
not right.

T^^:

So your irrational idea here

when you get ready

awful
H96:

if

I if

is

that you're saying to yourself

to have sex with her, "Wouldn't

it

be

she got pregnant and died?"

Yes, yes.

"That would mean I couldn't take it."

Yeah.
T99:
Well, why would that be awful?
fjioo. Well, because I think this might be a paradox, but because
I love her so much.
T^^^: Yeah, but why would it be awful if she died?
H^^^: Because this is a party that I have chosen to be my helper.
And she has chosen to be my helper. And she has chosen me.
And she respects me, and I respect her.
T^^:

H98:

'pioa.

A is
my life. I don't want
her to die before her time and before my time." And B is
"If she does, it's awful, terrible. It's dreadful." Now why would

Okay. But you see, you're saying two things here now.
''I

want her

to be with

me

the rest of

why would
would be unfortunate if

be

it

be so awful, so terrible? Not,

it

it

would be bad.

this

Mr. Gullo

is

It

bad? 'cause

were

to occur.

doing here what a rational-emotive practitioner

he is finding out
the kind of inadequacy involved and is suggesting practical ways
of countering it (as Masters and Johnson [1970] would tend to do
with their clients and as many other marriage counselors and sexologists would do); and second, he is zeroing in on their self-deprecat-

usually does in cases of sexual inadequacy:

first,

A HUSBAND AND WIFE

WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

155

ing and unrealistic philosophies about themselves and their sex experiences. In regard to these philosophies, he is trying to

what these

show the

why

they are self-defeating, and what

they can do about challenging and questioning them and ultimately
replacing them with more realistic values.

clients exactly

Hi()4.

are,

Well, I'm not saying that death in itself

I

is

a terrible tragedy.

don't believe that.

know

T^'''".

No,

H^^^':

But

this

would

that.

I if I am
be maybe this is

feel that if

here that

a selfish feeling

have had a part

And

the instrument of a tragedy,

reflecting back on me; there's

this

would be a tragedy that

in.

jji()8.

would mean that somethingthat "I'm a real louse."

Yeah, because my mother often threw up her particular problems to my father. I mean he was blamed, and therefore I
have a great affection for my father, and I never did have

T^"^:

So you overpersonalized them. You assumed that you would

H^^^:

Yes,

T^^^:

too

this

if

much

were

to happen, this

affection for

my

mother.

be responsible for her death.

I

have probably had those feelings. Maybe not that

strong. I've had the feeling, maybe, of just an abnormal life

or something, you know\

Till;

Yeah.

H^^^:

But

T113:

Yeah.

H^^^:

Not the death

think death enters into

it.

in itself but to be a cause of

sary type of death or something.

wife's background, too, has contributed a

had a very
\Yii5. s^YiQ ]^ad

Hii:

stern, self-righteous father

An

unneces-

little bit to this.

my
She

that

three children, though.

Hm?

W^^^: Four children.

H^^^:

it.

think probably that

Yeah,

sister, a

know

mean

that.

But

think this affected you and your

great deal.

W119. Probably.
JJ120.

Your sister how^

Wi^i: Yeah.

old

is

your

sister, forty-two, forty-three?

156

H^^^:

JOHN

And

know what

the cause of her delayed pregnancy.

Um^hm.

^127. ^Yell^

don't believe that her problem

Well,

think

H128:

don't

we

H^24. About a year and a half ago.

^125. ^^Q never discussed it with each other, so

T126:

GULLO, M.A.

she just had a child about a year ago.

W^2^: 'Course

is

M.

^129. u]^^ ^g||^

it

^Q^

was

-j-QQ^

marriage was very

tied

is

the

same

as ours.

in.

because
difficult.

think the

first

few years of

their

Because her husband would accuse

her of being childish or immature in accepting responsibility.

And she probably was. I don't know. I

g^^ J think in this family, though, there is a resentment
up against the father.
W131: Well, I thinkJJ130.

H^^^:

mean

^133. Yeah,
H^^^:

built

mean

But

not only the resentment.

it's

respect, an old-world respect, as a figure of authority.

also a

think

resentment

resented him more than

my

W^^^:

H^^^:

That you couldn't express your own

she was more

W137:

And

JJ138.

^^Q don't want to get in a family fight here. (Laughs)

think

sister did.

feeling. Well,

she I

think

I-

W139. (Laughs)
H^^^:

T^'*^:

But she was more capable of just accepting whatever he said,

whereas you just sort of rebelled against some things he said.
Yeah. Okay, then. Getting back to your particular reason for
inadequacy, then, is the idea that you will be the cause of
her death as a result of pregnancy.

JJ142.

would be

terrible,

caused

Is

it.

and

(b)

And

that (a) her death

you would be a louse for having

that right?

might take me a day to think about that that

(Laughs) But it seems that would be tied in.

Well,

it

logic.

The clients, who are somewhat sophisticated and who have had
some amount of psychoanalytic psychotherapy, would prefer to connect their present attitudes to intercourse, and the male's fear of
hurting the female through engaging in it, with the indoctrinations

A HUSBAND AND WIFE

WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

157

members. This may certainly to some extent be true,

may have picked up negative ideas tow^ard sex from their
parents. But this may also not be true, since the husband's failure
to keep persisting at having intercourse with his wife may be much

of their family
since they

more a

result of his fear of failure than of his fear of getting her

pregnant and thereby "hurting" her; and

it is very easy for him

(and his wife) to use childhood-imbibed superstitions as a cop-out
in this respect. Rather than get embroiled in speculative assumptions
about what happened during both the clients' childhoods and how
that affects them now, Mr. Gullo sticks to the main points, which
easily can be validated: namely, that if the husband believes that
intercourse with his wife might lead to pregnancy and that such
pregnancy might also result in her death, he also (and more importantly) believes that he would be a louse, under those circumstances,
for causing her demise. His view of his own "lousehood," and not
the high probability of his causing his wife's death (which he may

have falsely picked up from his parents), is the real

is what the therapist wants to emphasize.
^1^3.

now
^144.

T^^"^:

H146:

why would you

Well,

be a louse

if

this

issue;

this

were true? Let's assume

that she got pregnant, and she died giving birth.

Why

would that make you out a louse?

think it would be a tie-in to what I've been told what
I would be.
Yeah, but does that make you a louse? Here, all of these years
you've been told that you'd be a louse

Well I

No.

T147:

if you did

H^^^:

No, definitely not.

this.
I

don't think

it

would.

H^''^:

But you but you really do believe it would!

But I I it must be a very strong subconscious

T^'^i;

Yes.

T^"^^:

and

It's

very strong, so strong that this

what's maintaining

you keep telling yourself over and over again,

would be a louse if this would occur" in other words,

your problem.
'Tes,

is

feeling.

If

H^"^2.

you make yourself guilty. This is what guilt

Yeah, I think I would make myself guilty in

Ti-^^:

Right.

Hi-^-*:

Right.

'pi55.

Well, now, let's say,

you one?

if

call

is.

this aspect.

you a camel, does that make

JOHN

158

Hi-^6.

M. GULLO, M.A.

camel?

T^^"^:

Um-hm.

H^'^^:

No, no, hm-m.

^^159.

Now now,

H^^^:

But

T^^^:

Mm,

If

you one, would that make you one?

called

you see this is

I if

had the experience of having to sleep and live

with camels all my life, which I hated, and you call me that,
that would have a very personal meaning to me then. Now
I lived in an environment where this was these thoughts
and feelings expressed And, therefore, when I tell myself
this, it has a more emotional personal meaning.
if

where you that's where we agree: that you have

way. But then the cause,
the reason you still have the problem, is because you are mainthat's

this strong influence to think this

taining

in

it

washing

in

Hi^^2.

Yeah.

T163.

_head by

H164:

Yeah.

T165.

H166:
rpi67.

H^^^:

your own head. You

your

still

carry on this self-brain-

own

telling

yourself over

and over again: 'Tes

thinkyes, I would be a louse."
I think I sort of realize that. But then
Well,

question,

"Why

do

keep maintaining

it?"

have to ask the

'Cause

know

it's

not a right, healthy attitude in this particular aspect.

T^^^:

Because

(a) it's you're

not challenging this idea. You won't,

you're not continuing to do

W^^\ Yeah, but why don't

Ti^i:

Because

JJ172.

Why

T^''^:

Because, as

have

do

this

all

challenge

easily let this

human

difficulty

tance that

we

it?

dominate me?

beings, this

is

giving up our ideas.

all

face.

of the time.

And then

the

It's

way we

all

are.

We

a natural kind of resis-

because you're inured to doing

You haven't got any

practice questioning

had considerable practice doing just the opposite. And now it requires work. So
you try it a time or two, and you say, "Oh, helll I work so
hard to try and get over it, and it just doesn't seem to work!
or challenging this superstition. You've

guess there's no hope at

all!"

A HUSBAND AND WIFE WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

Wi7^:

Um-hm.

Hi7:

You see what

Um-hm.

T^^^:

And you

T^^'':

159

mean?

still, in the back of your mind, it seems to me, also

have this fear of failure that comes as a secondary aspect.
"Here I've tried to have sex with my wife and I've failed.

And

so if

try again,

what am

going to do?

Am

to fail again? Since I've always failed in the past,

going

it

looks

always fail! So why even try at all?" So then you give

up, and you kind of run away from having the sex activity.
like

I'll

think this it's a pretty good analysis.

H^^^:

Yeah,

T^^-^

Okay, so now the question

have to

how do you get over it? You

do two things now. (a) You have to question and
is,

challenge vigorously this false notion that you have.

H180:
T^^^:

Um-hm.
And then

(b) you have to do the work. You have to act. As

John Dewey said many years ago the famous educator "Nothing is ever really learned until it's acted upon."
So the same would apply to the black cat superstition. You

not only have to ask yourself,

my

bly affect

life?

"How could the

color black possi-

Where's the magic?" Then you have

to

go and pat the black cat on the head. So you then not only
have to challenge these ideas: "Why would I be a louse, if
she were to die and why is it so awful to fail?" You also have
to force yourself to have relations with her.
H^^^:

It

seems, though, that over the years

myself maybe not exactly

'This

way but

irrational. This is not right."

is

thought

this

it

come the

out like

this.

have sort of asked

I've said to myself,

But I mean,

But that hasn't been enough

I've

to over-

resistance, you see.

T^^^:

Because, probably, you're blaming yourself for being irratio-

H184.

Well, yes, because

nal.
it's quite a paradox. Uh, as I said, at one
time in my life I thought maybe all through my life I have
had a warped view on everything. If it's warped here, then
in his
it must carry through that was one thing Dr. S
,

five
all.

minutes he

So-

didn't think

was

crazy,

you know. That's

160

T^^^:

JOHN
I

don't think you're crazy either.

You

just

M.

happen

an exaggerated view of sex and self-blaming that

people have in a lesser degree.
H186:

Yeah.

T^^^:

Your problem

JJ188.

Uj^ Probably

to

have

many

other

is a common one, incidentally. I see lots of

people with this particular problem, although for some of them
it hasn't gone on to this great a length.

we

if

this earlier, as

have you know, maybe have got

wouldn't have worn such a groove

could

say,

in our thinking.
Ti9:

GULLO, M.A.

it

think of

this.

That's right.

T191:

something about this. And as

I say, we've sort of gotten, it seemed to me, the runaround
in many areas, though maybe we didn't follow through on
some of the ideas that they did present hard enough. I don't
know; I'm not blaming these other people entirely.
Yeah.

JJ192.

j'j^

JJ190.

gy^ ^Q ^Q truly want

gyj,g

they I'm

to do

sure you can get a good idea, and the

minute you walk out that door you can completely ignore that
idea.
^193.

Yeah. Well, I'm going to try to make sure that doesn't happen.

make it as concrete as possible and give you

homework assignment to do. 'Cause in the kind of counseling
that I do, we give concrete homework assignments so people
I'm going to

And you can get a couple

you want to go into more detail about this
specifically things that I'll say to you. But now I think it's
important for you to realize that this apparently is one of
the major reasons why you haven't been able to do much about
it. You got the secondary disturbance of blaming yourself
can get over their disturbances.
of books

if

because of your irrational ''Well, that's irrational for

think this way." And, ''Man that's really awful.

can a guy get?"

And

so

How

me

to

nutty

you blame yourself. You're overgen-

condemning the sinner instead of the sin.

You're condemning yourself instead of the act. You say, "Beeralizing. You're

cause
is

H194;

my

what

Yeah.

act

guilt

is
is.

bad,

as a whole person

am

a louse." This

A HUSBAND AND WIFE

WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

161

Mr. Gullo drives home a most important point here. Many dients
to therapy already knowing that they are thinking and acting
irrationally, and they then wonder why this knowledge does not
help them behave more rationally. One of the main reasons for this,
the therapist points out, is because they are really telling themselves

come

''I am acting irrationally," and (b) ''I should not be

behaving in this manner, and am therefore pretty worthless for
being irrationall" This second idea not only adds to their original
irrationality (which almost alw^ays consists of their condemning
themselves for something they have done or not done), but it also
prevents them from looking at it and doing anything effective about
it. For while the client is condemning himself for being irrational,
he will rarely have the time and energy to discover why he behaves
(or what he is telling himself to make himself behave) irrationally,
and he will therefore not really get back to trying to solve his original
problem. RET, because of its consistent anti-blaming aspect, is one
of the few forms of psychotherapy that tackles the individual's secondary set of symptoms that is, his blaming himself for blaming
himself. This secondary irrationality is frequently w^orse than his
original one, and infinitely complicates his disturbance.

tw^o things: (a)

why

^195.

^j^(j ^Yiis is

JJ196.

Theologically now, with

all

guilt

is

irrational.

my

strong religious upbringing,

{laughing) might have some things to say on that.

^197.

Well, there's one other

way

that

we

use guilt, and that's in

Which means that you're responsihaving done the act, the wrong act. Now what I'm

the legal sense of the word.

ble for

talking the kind of guilt I'm talking about is that (a) you're
responsible for having done the act; and then (b) you're a total
louse, a worm for having done it. Now, by this definition,
all guilt is irrational because you condemn yourself for your
act.
JJ198.

Yeah,

agree. This

is

a faulty concept.

T^-^'^:

Right.

H^oo;

Guilt. This type of guilt that, for

one thing, condemns a whole

man.
^^201.

^j^(j ^]^jg jg irresponsibility.

JJ202.

Though though

This

is

immorality.

do feel that man is a whole person,

though. I mean, what his mind may do does affect his whole
body. I mean he is he is a unit. And what and and to
I

JOHN

162

separate one thing and say this

good may

is

Maybe

be I

this is

don't

why

feel a

much

complete

guilt.

is

make

And

a set of dislikes.

mean

feel that

this difference. Be-

this difference in reality.

an ongoing process.

is

of a difference.

That
and mind.

spirit,

Yes, well, you're going to have to

cause there

GULLO, M.A.

bad where the rest of him

that

I'm a whole person: body, soul,

^[^203.

is

make

M.

Now

an individual

he consists of a set of likes and

And when you

do a wrong

act, this

doesn't

that you, a whole person, are a louse for having done

that act.
H^o^:

But that

act,

I'm getting
T^^^:

may

It

though, affects your whole person. This

is

what

at.

affect you, but

it

doesn't

mean

that you are totally

worthless.
jj2()6.

]sJq^ j

rp207.

^j^j that's what you're that's the trap

agree with you there.

I

think you're falling

which you always fall into. You equate your worth as

a person with your act. You don't hold the opposite existentialistic view that you're a good person just because you're
alive. Incidentally, you go against your owm religious precepts,
inasmuch as God reportedly said that to err is human and
into,

H^8.

would better be forgiven.

Yeah.

'p209.

^Y\d you're not forgiving yourself.

H^^":

Yeah,

and

think

say that. But

then

one thing to say like, to forgive myself

it's

and so

forth. It's

one thing to

when something has been programmed

not easy.

mean, you can say

into you,

that, but the reality

not there.

is
T'^^^:

it's

feel that I'm not a louse

Now
do

is

agree with you there.

not easy. But

it

is

What

I'm trying to get you to

harder not to do

it

than to do

it.

you to stop and think

and guilt in you. You
have to stop and say, "Now, wait a minute. Why would I be
such a louse if this happened? Let's assume my wife really
It's

going to be

when you begin

difficult at first for

to create this anxiety

did get pregnant and died in childbirth. So,

make me
j^2i2.

It's

how does

that

just too bad. It's not awful.''

have a better, a deeper feeling than it's just too bad.

think I think I have a deeper feeling than that.

Weii^
I

a louse?

A HUSBAND AND WIFE WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

T^^-^:

Yeah, that's your problem you have

you have to come up to the

that

we

it's

reality,

what

JJ214.

(^jsJqcIs

'P'iis.

p^Yid

and therefore

are

it

becomes technically what

defining

it

as lousy beyond

yourself feel bad.

You

see

mean?

affirmatively)

you're going to have to face the fact that

just too bad.

It's

could you really

it what a louse
H'-^i^:

now
you make

You

deep a feeling. And

which is simply

level of reality,

only too bad. Beyond that

call tautological.

too

163

not awful. Nothing in

call

life

would be

it

that

know

of

awful, terrible, or equal to "I can't stand

I'd be."

Yeah.

The therapist is trying to make clear though it is difficult to

get over this point to almost any human being that nothing is
truly awful in the universe since the term awful is meaningless
or has surplus, magical meaning. To say that an event, such as one's
killing one's wife by getting her pregnant and having her die in
childbirth, is bad, unfortunate, disadvantageous, deplorable, or undesirable, is often true because this is an empirically-founded statement, which can be observably validated. Thus, the real misfortunes
or disadvantages of killing one's wife e.g., injury to her, loss of
her com.panionship, the trouble of finding a new wife, difficulty
of breaking the emotional bonds to her, and so on can easily be
found and delineated; and it would be quite odd if one held that
it was good or advantageous to bring about her demise in this manner. But the awfulness, horror, or catastrophe of killing her could
hardly ever be substantiated empirically. For the belief, "It is awful
that I killed her!" not only includes the real disadvantages listed
above but it also denotes the assumptions (a) "I can't stand the
disadvantages of killing her"; (b) ''I should not or must not have killed
her"; (c) "I am thoroughly worthless as a human being for killing
her"; (d) ''I don't deserve to continue to Hve or to enjoy myself in
any way whatever now that I have killed her"; and (e) "God or the
universe will cruelly punish me, on this earth or in the hereafter,
for having killed her." All these assumptions are magical, unprovable,
or disprovable hypotheses; and although it is empirically observable
that anyone who believes in these theological propositions will almost
certainly create most miserable results he w^ill feel guilty and
ashamed, will tend to feel worthless, will be severely depressed (perhaps for his entire lifetime), and may even deliberately punish or

JOHN

164

M. GULLO, M.A.

himself the existence of these results is no proof whatever of

It is merely proof that when one believes in lawfulness," one feels awful and experiences unpleasant consequences ad-

kill

the hypotheses.

ditional to those indigenous to one's ''awful" acts.

T^^'':

H^i^:

you as a whole person to be worthless, you

would have to say that all of your acts are worthless. Now
you know that you have good acts and bad acts.
Yes, I in fact I mean like, within each person I think
there's this love and hate, belief and unbelief, and we're a
Incidentally, for

composite type of individual well,

can see that.

T^i^:

But incidentally,

JJ220.

rp22i.

And, then, the other reason why you need not get overconcerned about childbirth is that you know there are ways most
enjoyable, normal ways of having sex relations without intercourse that you could engage in. Right?

you

you keep
focusing so much on the disadvantages of what might occur
that you don't even realize that the probability, I would say,
is statistically quite low that your wife would end up dying
it's

ironical because here

are;

in childbirth.
j-ealize that. I've

guess

read the

statistics.

I'm familiar with them.

JJ222.

'j'223.

gQ yQu see where focusing on this one aspect, intercourse,

is really hanging you up now.

H224:

Um-hm.

T^^o.

ii

so.

prevents you from looking at these other areas which you

could try to enjoy.

And

this

may

also be

another thing you

want to try doing if you continue to have this sex difficulty.

You might try caressing each other and giving each other
satisfaction without intercourse. This

might be an additional

technique that you could use.

JJ226.

the background, wouldn't there

be too,

a negative, a repulsive factor here, too, against any

woman?

Wouldn't that
I

be in

mean wouldn't this

mean no matter who

be a part of
it'd be,

it?

That, because of this

her or somebody

else, there'd

be a seething hatred or repulsive factor, too?

^^227.

Well, there very well could be

sex

And

is dirty,

then

(b)

and you make

if

you if you

believe that (a)

yourself repulsed in that respect.

you overgeneralize, thinking your mother

is

such

A HUSBAND AND WIFE

WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

a witch that in life you

a witch also.

You

assume that every other woman

could develop resentment there.

what you're suggesting that you're probably

JJ228.

Yeah, maybe

165

Now

is

is

that

also doing?

maybe her
woman. I mean, there might be this feeling here.
Well, what would be repulsive?
Just the mere fact of that she's a woman, I guess. I mean,
it's

not only just the sex part, but

as a

'p229.
H'^^*':

T^^^:

would there be an illegitimacy in this type of feeling?

But what would you say to yourself? "See, here's a woman,"
and why, what would you say to yourself to get this feeling

^232.

Well,

'p233.

Yeah.

of repulsion?
I thought maybe this might bring back some just by
her very presence near me, that this might bring back unpleas-

ant memories and emotions and feelings.

And what

are

some

of these unpleasant emotions or

feelings?
JJ234.

^^235.

Well,

but

think

don't

think I mean April means any

maybe

just her very presence

Yeah, but you would have to

tell

specific thing;

would

yourself something about

her presence. You'd have to bring the past up now, in your

own

head.

H236:

Yeah.

^237.

^j^(j

what kind of

specific things

do you say to yourself about

How

do you compare her to your

bringing the past up here?

mother?

know

can answer that right now.

j^238.

'^239.

Well,

jj24().

domineering- unforgiving. And,

don't

what was

uted toward
T^^^:

B.'^"^-:

if I
it

about your mother that you disliked?

of course, being ill contrib-

this.

Now, do you feel that way about having a relationship with your wife nowl ''Well, my own mother was domineering, so if I start to show my feeling, show any form of
affection with my wife, maybe she'll lord it over me, maybe
she'll become domineering to me. Maybe she won't forgive
me, especially if I fail to maintain an erection. Maybe she'll
really condemn me for that. And wouldn't that be awfulV
I mean as I say some of these feelings here. I mean April
has we've always assured each other that we would be forgiv-

All right.

ing. She's

no comparison to

my

mother.

JOHN

166

-^^:

Although

do think

might have contributed

M.

GULLO, M.A.

some of

to

this,

when we were first married, I had a natural fear

of this. I mean I had never had any experience either, so I
didn't know what to expect. Maybe maybe in a way I pulled
away from him or something. And then, with these feelings
because

that he already had, I might have repulsed him myself. I don't

know. But I couldn't say that he's all to blame. I probably

contributed to
'p244.

too.

it,

Well, yeah, there's probably

some contribution that you've

made

is

here, but his problem

largely in his head. It's not

youl
I

'^246.

don't know.

Well, he's what I'm suggesting here

of his

own problem. He has had

that he's the cause

is

past serious influences that

have helped him to think and feel and lead his

But

he's still the cause, for

you,

it's

now when he

what's going on up here {pointing

repulsing him, not you intrinsically.

emotionally hurt or
upset. This

we do

another person's

harm

to his

head) that's

No human being

could

or cause another individual to be

what we tell ourselves about

famous philosopher, Epictetus, said

ourselves by

acts.

two thousand years

this over

way.

life this

gets repulsed by

ago. 'It's not things or events

And

that upset people but their view of these things."

in

our

A-B-C formulation A is something that happens to you, a fact,

something in reality. Let's take it on his level his sexual

And then
And it's not

inadequacy. "I'm not able to maintain an erection."

at point

he's feeling anxious, guilty, upset.

that's the cause of

C but
B he

A, his failure. At point

things: one sane
like it

wife

because

isn't

at point

me

terrible. It shouldn't

failed."

That

is

himself about

tells

we

himself, as

failed at A. Or, "I don't like

right now."

''And because

is:

what he

tells

all

and one insane. The sane sentence

sexy to

B:

be this way.

And

is: ''I

two

don't

because

my

the second sentence

don't like

What

it

do,

it,

a louse

what creates your emotion

it's
I

at C.

awful.

It's

am

for having
Are you with

me?
Um-hm.
^^248.

In other words, you feel the

way you

influence him

by

to be repulsed

think.

Now, you could

A HUSBAND AND WIFE

W^*-':

That's what

^250.

Now,

WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

167

I mean. I might do this.

what you're talking about. But I didn't want you
that you were the cause of his emotion.

that's

to feel

used to think

so.

W-^''^:

'p2r>2.

Well, most everybody thinks so unfortunately.

Mr. Gullo rightly points out that the wife might have some influence over her husband and could help him to believe that he was
a blackguard for getting her pregnant or for failing her sexually,
but that this would not truly be the cause of the husband's sex
problem, since he could only really create his own catastrophizing
philosophy in his own head. Technically, even the influence of others
is quite unimportant unless the individual actively agrees with this
influence and makes it his own view. This is what the rational-emotive therapist frequently demonstrates: that no matter how
''influencing" a child's parents were, he had to be suggestible to
their words, gestures, and attitudes. Perhaps more importantly, he
later had to keep reindoctrinating himself with the nonsense that
they tried to get him to believe. Consequently, psychoanalytic and
behavior conditioning theories, which emphasize the "influence" of
the individual's past on his present life, fail to stress his active
agreement with these prior "influences," neglect to show him how
he is still actively going along with these "pulls," and hence provide
him with a foolish rationalization for his contemporary disturbances.
The true "causes" of the individual's irrationalities are (a) his original gullibihty when he was younger and (b) his retained gullibility
and self-instruction today. Outside "influences" certainly exist and
are relevant; but they can easily be, and by the disturbed individual
(and the ineflficient therapist!) usually are, enormously overstressed.

^253. ^j^(j ^^^^

made me more miserable than

weren't having intercourse. Feeling that

a lack in
J254.

Yeah.

me

or something

that

Now he's doing just the

we

the fact that

I

that

there

was

he had no desire for me.

reverse.

be the cause of your death, which in a

He thinks that he would

way he would be, though

not to the degree to which he thinks he would be. But the

most important thing

self,

and

as far as
(b)

can

is

tell.

that you're really

For

(a)

condemning your-

your failure to satisfy her,

because you feel that how to state this? well, be-

cause you would feel that you would be responsible for some

JOHN

168

M. GULLO, M.A.

awful, awful, dire catastrophe that would happen; that

if

something
fearsome or dangerous, you should completely
refrain from it. You see? (Pause) Now it is hard to get over
this; you do have to stop and think. There's just no other way
is

of getting over

And

it.

kind of insight. Insight

these years that
H^^'^:

it

then you have to put into action this

not enough. 'Cause you

is

very easy to have other things,

It's

much good.
mean involve

know

all

just doesn't do that

I

yourself

or busy yourself in other things; you forget about the particular

problem.

T256:

Right.

JJ257.

^j^(j

hsive done that. We have talked it over between ourand discussed it and said, ''Well, maybe the time will
come when we're not so busy." But the thing is, you continually

^g

selves

involve yourself.
'^258.

Yeah. You rationalize.

-^259. w/'eii^

there are times we've even asked each other, ''Do

want

really

Maybe

we enjoy our freedom?"

Maybe we're
good time that we don't want to have

to have a family or do

why we

this is

just having such a

anything to
rp26().

Yeah. Well,

spoil

don't try to do anything.

it.

think that that

the problem

we

is

one of a

tanism and fear of

is

a cop-out, too.

lot of guilt

failure.

And

think basically

involved and sexual puri-

that's the real cause.

then, in order to not see that, you keep thinking

other specious reasons for

why you might

all

And
these

not be making

it

with each other. Because incidentally you could start taking

birth control pills and not have a family and have a ball sexually. This may be the other hang-up that you have also.

That sex

is

only for procreation.

Now is that were you taught

that also?
H^^ii:

No I
I

^^262.

don't

if

was exactly taught that or not, but

I think sex should be for fun.

disagree on that viewpoint.

Okay, good,

down

we have no problem

the line on that.

position at

don't know.
JJ263.

know

all
I

on that. You might be

was a Roman

That's the position that

we came

and I agree right

Roman Catholic
a Roman Catholic; I

there;

don't agree with the

Catholic.

I that we came

out of religiously

out of a very fundamental, straight background.

A HUSBAND AND WIFE

WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

'Course w^e're not that now.

And

it

169

has a very sick view of

sex.
^^264.

Yeah, you're not that way now

in theory,

but you're

still

carry-

ing around with you, in the back of your head, old-time

gion. That's really
H'-'^^-^:

Yeah, that's right.

W-^^':

Yeah, um-hm.

'^267.

_still with you.

reli-

what's

And we have

to get

you over

that.

The therapist suspects that the clients' fundamentalist religious

may have had something to do with their sexual inhibitions
and evasions; and although they are presumably not as rigid in that
views

area as they previously were, he thinks that they well may have
remnants of the old-time religion. In RET, the therapist often ex-

whether the client's present irrational ideas spring from his

early-imbibed religious orthodoxies; if so, these orthodoxies are questioned. Usually, as in the present instance, the client is able to retain
moderate religious views but is induced to challenge his extreme
dogmas that interfere with his sexual and his nonsexual functioning.
plores

Mr. Gullo, in the conclusion of this session (which, because of space

is not included in this chapter), tries to show the clients,
and especially the husband, that they are trying to be too perfectionistically good, and that it would be better if each of them were
a little more self-interested rather than overly altruistic. He also
emphasizes the husband's looking at his self-defeating beliefs about
sexual failure and his disputing these beliefs: ''It is pure drivel that
it's terrible if sex failure occurs. So it does. You can tell yourself,
'What enormous difference does it make if I fail? If I fail, I fail.
Let me see what I can do to be less faihng next time.' Or, 'Isn't
it interesting? Here I'm failing again. Now, let me see what I can
do to succeed a little better in this sex relationship with my wife
the next time.' So if you focus on trying to enjoy yourself with
her, instead of focusing on how horrible it is if you fail, then your
chances of success become pretty good."
The therapist ends this first session by giving the couple the homework assignment of trying to have sex relations with each other
every day that week, and of challenging their catastrophizing when
they have these relations. He also assigns them three books to read:
Sex Without Guilt (Ellis, 1970), A Guide to Rational Living (Ellis
and Harper, 1970), and The Art and Science of Love (Ellis, 1969b).
Usually, the second of these books is regularly assigned after the
limitations,

JOHN

170

first

session of

RET; but

M.

GULLO, M.A.

in cases involving puritanical sex blocks

or sexual inadequacy, the other

two books are

also frequently as-

signed.

During the next three sessions, which occurred at intervals of

about two weeks, the clients made slow but steady progress. They
kept trying to have sex relations, at first with minimal results since
the husband was rarely able to keep or maintain an erection; and
on those few occasions when he was able to do so, the wife complained about being uncomfortable in the sexual positions that they
were mainly using. During the fifth session, the husband reported
that they both tired easily during sex relations, and he was unable
to have an orgasm. Mr. Gullo probed for the details of the positions
they were using, and discovered that the wife mainly rested on her
back with her legs straight up in the air, and that they both found
that inconvenient, and she found it particularly tiring. He recommended that she try holding her legs back to her chest, or that
her husband hold them up with his arms or shoulders. This advice

seemed

When

to help

them

considerably.

the couple were lax about working on their sex problem

together, the therapist induced

them

to

make

list

of the advantages

of their doing so and the disadvantages, especially to their rela-

They made these lists and kept reading them to each other. In fact, using one of the behavior therapy
methods that are employed in RET, they were instructed not to
allow themselves to have any meals until they first read these lists
to each other. This forced them to remind themselves of their purposes and their therapeutic goals at least three times a day. The
therapist also induced them to make a chart of their attempts at
intercourse, so they could have, day by day, a visible record of how
seriously they were trying to overcome their problem.

tionship, of their not doing so.

During these sessions, Mr. Gullo kept alternating between discussing practical techniques of sex relations and showing the husband
and wife what irrational ideas they were telling themselves to stop
themselves from making a sufficient number of attempts, and then
checking to see whether they were actively and persistently disputing these irrational ideas.
The sixth session occurred about three months after the first one.

SIXTH SESSION
T^:

Well,

H-:

Well,

how have things been going?

we think we've got our problem

solved now! (Laughs)

A HUSBAND AND WIFE

WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

T-^:

Well, good! Good!

W^:

We're doing

H'':

Yeah.

T":

You've had intercourse how

We

171

real good.

really are.

And we

think we're on our way.

(Laughs)

many

times successfully, then?

Approximately?
H":

know how many

Well, w^e don't

times, but as

much

as

we

can.
T:

Yeah.

H-^:

And there's been

T''':

Just couldn't get to

H^^:

Conflicts in schedule

W^-:

can make it.

Um-hm. We

W:

Yeah.

W^^:

you

a few days

we

haven't because of just long

hours and things like that.

real

it?

and

But it's

stuff.

don't have the

same feelings about

know. We look forward to

problem before.

it

T^':

H^^:

(Nods head yes)

Ti^:

You do?

H^'^:

H-^^^:

Right.

T^^:

Good, good!

W22:

Um-hm.

And

Better, better!! (Laughs)

H24:

(Laughs)

W^"'^:

(Laughs) Most of the time.

we were kind

didn't enjoy
T2:

Um-

W^'':

We know

it

Now

last

we did
it

was a

intercourse?

time we both

of rushing things,

too much, but

it

was

T^^:

that we should spend a

But we just didn't that time.
Um-hm. Are you getting tired?

W2:

No. (Laughs)

K''\

(Laughs)

W^^:

H^2.

She's holding up pretty well now.

guess

we

you're satisfied also?

T23:

that

it

now, whereas

Um-hm.
And so it's it seems to be all right.
You have an orgasm when you're having

T^^:

as regular as

I'm

all

little

realized

think, last time.

right.

more time, you know.

JOHN

172

W^"^:

doing

134;

Practice?

W^'':

tensions or yeah,

T^^:

W^^:

And tenseness?
Um-hm. Now it

T^^:

Have you

W-3^:

Yeah.

T'*^:

W^^:

T-^2:

But-

T^^:

Well,

'p46.

right.

tried

thought maybe

doesn't bother

some

it

GULLO, M.A.

was just

practice

lot of

me

at

all.

different positions

see how that affects you?

Um-hm. They probably have been
one we still stick to.
Um-hm.

W43.

W^'^:

all

M.

to

as successful as the original

probablypeople develop better ways after a while.

Right. That's just what I was going to say.

W^^:

Yeah.

T^^:

That's good! I'm very glad to hear that.

think we're doing real good.

only acknowledges the clients'

approval at their

new

T\

T^i,

and T^^, Mr. Gullo not

progress, but shows his pleasure and

In various responses, such as

T'^-\

behavior. This, of course,

is

a technique of

reinforcement and constitutes one of the ways in which rational-emotive therapy is a form of behavior therapy. Even nondirective
treatment, as has been shown in several experimental studies, is

when the therapist says "um-hm" to the client's improved behavior and ignores or questions his disturbed behavior.
In RET, there is an honest, full-fledged attempt to reinforce changes
reinforcing

that are helpful to the client.

JJ49.

We're waiting for a family now. (Laughs)

W-^O;

(Laughs)

T^^:

(Laughs)

Do you have any problems with

fertility or

anything

like that?

been see, when we

H'^^:

Yeah,

T-^'^:

Um-hm.

H"^^:

Well, see, one of the things

went

I've

started out on this thing,

we

to the family planning thing over here.

And one

of the things

was

we wanted was

to adopt a child.

to get a fertility test.

And

went

A HUSBAND AND WIFE WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

173

and he gave me this test and said that I was

had about one chance out of seven of impregnating
my wife if we had intercourse regularly. And so he gave me
this prescription for pills, w^hich I've been taking ever since.
to the doctor,

that

Two

pills

twice a day. In fact,

ment with him. Supposed

then he's
T^-^:

And

H-^:

Yeah.

T'''':

^58.

should

go
going to take another

the medication

is

to

in

make another

appoint-

about three months, and

test.

to increase

your

fertility?

And how about you?

Well we decided there

wasn't any reason to test me further

up to what he should be
Any time I make an appointment now we'll recheck on this.
If I can take it take his [the doctor's] attitude.
until he got

H''^:

W^'^:

Well, you can stand that!

H^^:

(Laughs)

As shown

and in her husband's goodnatured laugh after this response, there is an indication that they
have not merely learned some new sexual techniques but have also
been working at changing their basic attitudes toward frustrations
and disappointments. Previously, they had received what they considered to be real attention and poor treatment from the physicians
and therapists they had seen, and they were clearly resentful of
this kind of treatment. Now they seem to realize that they can stand
being treated cavalierly or ineffectively and that other people's attiin the wife's response, W^^,

tudes do not have to affect them too seriously. It may well be this
very change in their thinking, with a consequent rise in their level
of tolerance for frustration, that has enabled them during the period
of therapy to persist at overcoming their sex difficulties. Previously,
they have always given up on attempts at intercourse, soon after
disappointing results were obtained; but this time, in spite of initial
problems, they persisted until tbey succeeded. As I have noted in
a paper on the nature of disturbed marital interaction (Ellis, 1966),
whatever the original causes of a husband's or a wife's emotional
upsets are, the main thing that keeps perpetuating these upsets
is his or her unwillingness to work at changing the disturbed feelings
and behavior. This time, both partners seem to have combated their
ideas that persistence at troublesome adjustments to each other is
too hard and that they shouldn't have to work at sex relations that

JOHN

174

M.

GULLO, M.A.

are "supposed to" occur spontaneously; and they have consequently

(at long last!) reached a point where they semi-automatically are

enjoying intercourse.

T^^'^:

Well, what's his attitude like?

H''-^:

Oh,

I don't know. He's just typical just rush in, rush out,
you know. Take a pill. We've had this runaround before, and

so

think

sort of disgusted

it

T*'^:

Well-

W*'"':

H^^:

But he sure wasn't interested

me

little bit.

T^':

when you go back this time.

in my problem. You know.
Maybe because he knows he doesn't know what to do about

fj<i8.

\yell,

T^^:

You mean, he

H''*':

Yeah, he did medically, and

think you'll feel differently

it.

(Laughs) Except, you know, medically speaking.

yeah, medically.

mean you well,

didn't even

and

for the pills

told

seem

me

to

that's fine.

to be interested in

medically?

say he wrote out a prescription

come back

in three

T':

Um-hm.

W"^-^:

But he didn't give you any solutions for what

meantime.

H^^:

No.

W"^:

Well,

my

it

But

doctor didn't either! They don't

months.
to do in the

know what

to tell

you!
T"'^:

That's right, they don't. (Laughs) That's

why

we're in the

business.

W^^:

And

if it

to you, we'd

how many
T'^:

Yeah.

So

''^:

still

be getting the

pills it took, it

we'll just

wouldn't help us any!

have to be patient now and find out what happens.

guess you've solved your problem then.

T"^:

Well,

W^^^:

thing?
You've come

who recommended us
same runaround. No matter

hadn't been for the agency

real close to

it!

}li-

W^^:

Yeah.

T"-^:

So

W^-:

am

I!

there any-

(Laughs)

Um-hm, yeah. Just

Yeah, we really have.
wanted to say we're very happy about

H^^:

Is

it!

(Laughs)

A HUSBAND AND WIFE

WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

175

H*':

(Laughs)

W^":

Yes.

H^^:

You thought you had a loser on your hands, didn't you?

T^^:

No,

jj9().

Well well, we wanted to and we felt we had some real obstacles. And we worked it out. Whether it's too late, I don't

W^i;

(Laughs)

T^-:

No,

It

really really,

it's

a small miracle.

It really

is.

(Laughs)
I

didn't. No, not really.

But I'm just happy that

it

got

solved this quickly.

know.
it's

not at

all

too late.

At any

rate even

if

you weren't

able to get her pregnant, at least you'd have the happiness

and satisfaction and pleasure of having sex together.

W-^^:

Um-hm.

T^^:

Plus the closeness that usually goes with

W^-^:

Well, that w^as a good thing.

W'^:

Yeah.

W^^:

But that that doesn't completely satisfy

T'^^:

No, 'cause you wanted to have the children, along with

W^:

Yeah.

Ti<><>:

Yeah.

it.

us,

because that

wasn't our original intent.

H^-^^:

if we find that we're still unable

we can still go through an adoption
Um-hm.
'Course we want to try ourselves.

'Course
I

Ti^>2.
H^'*"^:

Tio^:

think

Oh, yeah;

W^^^^:

Yeah.

Hi'6:

Yeah.

T^^":

You might
control pills

it.

have children,

to

agency.

We

could.

would, too.

also investigate the possibility of

going on birth

for one month because they make

it

easy to get

pregnant once you stop taking them.

^los. Probably should try that.
Hi9:

(Laughs)

W^i": (Laughs)

try anything. Well, we have really this last

know, of trying we have really been elated at
you know. And it's been a w^onderful experience

I'll

period, you

our success,
for us.
T^ii;

It's like

courtship

all

over again.

JOHN

176

M. GULLO, M.A.

W112: {Laughs) Yeah!

Wh

{Laughs)

^114. \Yell,
Rii-^:

it's

like

being married! {Laughs)

{Laughs)

^116. y^Q spent

all

this

time

all

these years with not really knowing

Hii':

what it's all about. It's real good experience.

Which seems silly, you know, but it happened.

W^^^:

When you

look back on

it.

But, you know,

found anyone that would help

Tii^:
W^'-'^:

T^^^i

'pi23.

really

us.

Um-hm.
And we, maybe that's why we have progressed. I don't know
if we've made good progress, but at least I think we have.
And I think the reason we have is because this is the first
time we've ever found an answer that we could work on. And
we both have really tried. And I think we will continue to,
now that we have the answer.
Because you've reached a point where there's
returning to that old pattern of abstinence.

I'm sure you

no no
W122:

we never

will.

Um-hm.
pj-om now on

it's

going to be an enjoyable thing and

will

increase as time permits.

Hi'-^^:

Well,

we

don't have those fears which has been a radical

change, you know.

And I

think this

was this was

the initial

thing that kept us back at the beginning certain fears.

we
Wi2^^:

Now

just don't think about them.

No.

According to the testimony of the clients, especially as shown in

they were most helped because for the first time, after years
of trying various forms of treatment, they "found an answer that
W^^'**,

we

could

work on." This

is

precisely the goal of

RET:

to give the

individual something very specific and concrete that he can

on. First, he

is

shown exactly what he

is

convincing himself to

work

make

himself upset. Second, he learns how to verbally and theoretically

dispute or challenge his own false beliefs. Third, he is given clear-cut
activity homework assignments to help break up his old patterns
of crooked thinking and self-defeating activities. Fourth, he is sometimes provided with alternative ways of behaving and tested techniques of improving his performance^ (sexual or nonsexual). All these

A HUSBAND AND WIFE WHO HAVE NOT HAD INTERCOURSE

177

new teachings and they are exactly that can be fairly easily understood by almost any reasonable, intelligent individual and can
be tested in practice. As White, Fichtenbaum, and Bollard (1969)
have shown, there is "some measured evidence that what a patient
learns to think and say during therapy is related to changes in his

An association was found between verbal learning of messages and behavior relevant to these messages. Learning of therapeutic messages was found to be related to improvement in overall
mental health. Thus the findings seem to support the value of explicit
goals and message teaching in short-term treatment [p. 293]." Although their study of learning in therapy was done in a Freudian
behavior.

psychoanalytic setting,
findings that are

it

beautifully epitomizes the constant clinical

made during

the practice of rational-emotive ther-

apy.

J 126.

Well,

know what

don't

else

can do for you, or get you

to do for yourself.

^127. \Yeii^ you know,

we were

talking

it

over whether

we

should

come back anymore. And we thought maybe we probably

should maybe one more check, maybe at a month or two,
T128:

you know.
Okay.

H^'-^^:

'Cause

fertility

want

to check with the doctor again to see if

has improved any. Don't you think

it'd

be wise,

my

maybe

one more?
Yeah, I think so. A month would you like to come back in
a month, then, or would you like it a little longer?
H131; Well, maybe. Let's see, check my date calendar. (Laughs) What
about the twenty-ninth of next month? That's a little more

r^iso.

than a month.
Ti-^2.

Yeah, that's

^133.

j)q

yoy think

follow^ing
T^'^^:

Oh,

fine.

it

should be that soon? Or should

it

be in the

month?

think probably that would be a good time.

month then?

W^-^-^:

The end

Ti-^^':

Um-hm.

H^^":

Okay. Thanks for the real tremendous help you've given

^^13H.

Yes. If
solved.

of next

it

weren't for you,

us.

we would never have gotten

it

JOHN

178

T^'^^:

H^^^:

You have only yourselves

work. Good luck to you.
Thank you very much!

to thank, since

M.

GULLO, M.A.

you had to do the

W^^^: Yes, thank you very much!

Following their last session, the husband and wife continued to

have even more frequent and increasingly satisfying sex relations.
Several months later, the wife became pregnant, and they were both
elated. They talked to John Gullo on the phone and profusely thanked
him again for his help. After the birth of their first child, they
kept having successful and highly pleasurable sex activities, including intercourse, about two to three times a week. They still have
other difficulties in their relationship but consider them minor and
do not feel in need of any further psychological aid at the present
time (over two years after the completion of therapy).

CHAPTER

Relapsed Client with

Severe Phobic Reactions
MAXIE

The

MAULTSBY,

C.

JR., M.D.

married undergraduate student

who later had thirty
sessions of traditional psychotherapy, which, he claimed, were not
very helpful. Before hospitalization he had the delusion that he had
a guardian angel who protected him from all harm and would prevent
him from getting hurt even if he jumped in front of speeding
trucks which he thought was an exciting and (because of his magical ''protection") harmless habit. However, he was finally struck by
a truck, received a severe concussion, and developed an extreme fear
of noises, which he thought would result in his having another conclient is a twenty-four-year-old

who was

hospitalized for a psychotic episode and

cussion.

He

also had,

when

first

seen for rational-emotive therapy,

severe feelings of anxiety and inferiority, suicidal thoughts,

diflfi-

and pronounced feelings of

guilt

culty sleeping, poor study habits,

and depression.
After fifty sessions of group RET, the client reported significant
improvement in most of his problems, especially his phobic reactions
and his sleeping diflftculties. But a year later he reported that his
gains were being whittled away, that he was becoming terribly
afraid of another concussion and a consequent major loss of his
intelligence; that he was afraid of cops, rock throwers, rioters, and
fires that might lead to an accident that would result in his having
a concussion; that he again felt very stupid in his school work; and
that he tended to blame many of his personal failings on his original
accident. He therefore wanted to return to therapy.

FIRST SESSION
T^:

Give

me

an idea of how you are experiencing

going on
to

come

in relation to the

to therapy

life

now. What's

things that originally caused you

two years ago.

179

MAXIE

180

C^:

C.

MAULTSBY,

Well, speaking sort of from an overview of

that

am

a lot more rational than

seeing you.

my

was when

am much happier than when

I first

JR., M.D.

life,

I first

feel

began

began seeing

you.

T3

when was the last time I saw you?

you ended the group, a year and a half ago.
Okay. So it's been over a year, hm? What's it been
mean what have you been doing, etc.?
Let's see,

When
T5

Well,

T^:

Slip? Slip

I felt I began to slip.

how?
Slip back into some of the old patterns, but not to the same
depth. I mean I was still able to handle my problems, because
most of them were essentially the same old shit.
Yes, you mean the problems were the same as those that
originally caused you to come to RET.
Yes, I felt I was slipping more and more; it was like I didn't
have enough RET inside me to make the transaction without
I

T^:

C^^:

when therapy ended, my wife and I took a long, very

pleasant summer vacation. It was really wonderful. But when

C^:

C^:

like?

got back into school,

you.
T^^:

Why

C^^:

Well,

'pia.

Well, let

^14

^16

About a year, over a year.

But they weren't all individual, were they?
No, only two of them were individual, and they were in the
first month. I really enjoyed the group. The way I felt at
that time, I felt that the group was more beneficial for me

T^^:

Let's see, you

do you say that?

I

am assuming

What do you

that

if I

use as evidence?

had had enough RET,

would

not have slipped back,

'pi5

me

see;

how many

sessions did you have?

than individual therapy.

had eleven months of once-a-week group RET

making a total of about forty-five group sessions in the course
of a year. Okay, now what have you been doing on your own
since then?

C^^:

You mean therapy?

X19;

Why

C^^^:

did

homework

for four or five

months

after therapy.

did you stop doing

it?

didn't just stop, you know. Slowly

and

less.

and slowly you do

less

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

181

'p21

Why?

C22

I don't know.
During the time you were doing less and less, were you having
fewer and fewer problems?
Well, yes, that has something to do with it; and also it was
during the summer, you know, the first escape. We traveled
all summer, and we camped a lot of the time. I wasn't in
the position to do homeworks; I didn't have paper, I didn't
have pencils, I didn't have light. When school started, I tried
to pick it up again.
For how long did you try?
I don't know. It was almost like I would forget about it; I
would concentrate on the problem, you know, and just not
recall that the way to deal with it was to do homework.
In other words, you would be confronted with an emotional
conflict, and you would get so caught up in it, you wouldn't
think about rational thinking and rationally handling the sit-

'^23

'^25.

'27.

uation. Right?
C28:

Well,

would think of rationally handling it I mean

say some of the phrases, but

it

didn't occur to

me

to sit

would

down

and do a written homework. Sometimes I would think, ''Do

this." And then I would say, "First see if you
are advanced far enough in RET to handle it inside"; but
then for some reason I just wouldn't get around to doing
the written homework. I remember just before therapy ended,
I was beginning to be able to internalize the whole process.
What you mean by that is, when you were confronted with
a stressful situation, you would immediately start thinking
about the situation using rational concepts as opposed to your
pre-therapy way of thinking. The concept of internalization
is foreign to, and therefore meaningless in, RET theory. We
usually say that your rational thinking had become so well

homework on

'p29.

learned that

it is

situationally or cue-controlled, like a reflex

response; or rational thinking

way

life.

was becoming what you call "thought shorthand."

life was then eliciting reflex-like
rational responses in you to the same environmental cues to

Yes,
^31.

was becoming your preferred

of thinking about your whole

it

Yes, the rational view of

which you formerly had

reflex-like irrational responses. That's

MAXIE

182

what thought shorthand means.

It's

thoroughly learned something, be

a habit of physical action.

And

reasoned analysis of emotional

C.

MAULTSBY,

JR., M.D.

the end product of having

it

a habit of thought or

written homework, being a

conflicts,

makes the process

more

of replacing irrational thinking with rational thinking

efficient.

C32

It also

makes

it

necessary.

What?
Q34

Doing homework. The great advantage of homework

you have to do it.

T'^'^:

You mean homework

C-^^:

Yeah, that's right.

The sessions with

is

that

forces you to think rationally?

this client particularly illustrate the great extent

which homework assignments and homework reports are used

in RET. Desensitization is an important part of behavior therapy
(Wolpe, 1958; Wolpe and Lazarus, 1966) and consists largely of presenting an individual who has a phobia with a repetitious image
of or actual contact with the thing or event of which he is afraid,
so that he becomes gradually acclimated to it and therefore presumto

ably unafraid of

it.

In

its classic

form, contact or in vivo desensitiza-

was employed by Mary Cover Jones (1924), who conditioned

a young child who was afraid of a rabbit to be unafraid by gradually
putting a live rabbit closer and closer to him while he was engaged
tion

in a pleasant occupation, eating.

Alexander Herzberg

nally a Freudian analyst, adapted this

method

(1945), origi-

for use with psycho-

therapy clients by giving them activity homework assignments to

do in between therapy sessions, so that they would desensitize themselves to stimuli that they considered extremely fear-provoking.
When I first was experimenting with changing clients' basic attitudes by rational-emotive methods, I realized that such change was
much more likely to be effective if I gave them outside homework
assignments, which consisted of (1) the doing of presumably "dangerous" tasks, such as dating members of the other sex, taking automobile or airplane rides, or going on job interviews; and (2) active
self-depropagandization, often with the use of paper and pencil, in
regard to the irrational ideas they had about doing ''dangerous"
things (or about their obsessions, compulsions, withdrawal, inertia,
and other disturbed symptoms). Sparked by the work of some of
my associates in this respect, especially Dr. H. Jon Geis and Dr.

Maxie

C. Maultsby, Jr.,

developed a regular

Homework

Report,

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

183

which has been experimentally used at the Institute for Advanced

Study in Rational Psychotherapy in New York City for the past
few years. The latest revision of this form is reprinted in Figures
1 and 2. It has several important sections:

HOMEWORK REPORT
Consultation Center
Institute for

Advanced Study

45 East 65th Street,

New

York,

Name

Rational Psychotlierapy

in

NY. 10021

(212) LEhigh 5-0822

Date

draw a

Therapist

around the number in front of those feelings listed in the first column that troubled you most
during the period since your last therapy session. Then, in the second column, indicate the amount of work you did on each circled
item; and, in the third column, the results of the work you did.
Instructions:

Please

circle

Amount

Much

Work Done
Some
UMe

of

la

2a

Anger or

Fair

Work
Poor

great irritability

Anxiety, severe worry, or fear

Boredom

Results of

Good

or none

Undesirable Emotional Feelings

2b
3b
4b
5b
6b
7b
8b
9b
10b

or dullness

Failure to achieve

Frustration
Guilt or self-condemnation

Hopelessness or depression
Great loneliness
Helplessness
Self-pity

2c
3c
5c

6c
7c
9c
10c
lie
12c

lib
12b
13b

Uncontrollabiliiy

Worthlessness or inferiority

Other (specify)

..

8c

\-iii

Undesirable Actions or Habits

Avoiding responsibility
Acting unfairly to others
Being late to appointments
Being undisciplined

Demanding

14b
15b
16b
17b
18b
19b

attention

Physically attacking others

Putting off important things

20b
21b
22b
23b
24b
25b
26b
27b
28b
29b
30b

Telling people oft harshly

Whining or crying
Withdrawing from

activity

Overdrinking of alcohol
Overeating
Oversleeping
Undersleeping

Oversmoking
Taking loo many drugs or
Other (specify)

pills

14c
15c
16c
17c
18c
19c
20c

..

..

..

..

21c
22c
23c
24c
25c
26c
27c
28c
29c
30c

...
..

Irrational Ideas or Philosophies

31a
32a
33a

People must love or approve of me

Making mistakes is terrible
People should be condemned for their

34a
35a
36a

terrible when things go wrong

My emotions can't be controlled
Threatening situations have to keep
terribly worried

37a
38a

Self-discipline

is

Bad

my

31b
32b
33b

31c
32c
33c

wrongdoings

effects of

control

39a
40a

34b
35b
36b

It's

my

me

too hard to achieve

childhood

still

34c

35c
36c

37b

37c
38c

39b
40b

39c
anr

have to

life

can't stand the

way

certain people act

Other (specify)

..

(please complete other side)

Figure

1.

Page one of Homework Report

MAXIE

184

MAULTSBY,

C.

JR., M.D.

On page one, the client indicates how he has been feeling, actand thinking since the last therapy session, as well as how much
work he has done to change his undesirable emotional feelings, his
undesirable actions or habits, and his irrational ideas or philosophies.
He thereby indicates, to himself and to his therapist (to whom he
1.

ing,

PLEASE PRINT! BE BRIEF AND LEGIBLE! ANSWER QUESTION C FIRST; THEN ANSWER THE OTHER QUESTIONS.
A.

ACTIVATING EVENT

rB.

you recently experienced about which you became upset or disturbed. (Examples:

"My mate screamed

job interview."

at

BELIEF or idea you had about this Activating Event.

"How annoying to have my mate scream at me!")

Rational

"/

went for a

me.")
(Examples:

would be unfortunate

"//

were rejected

if I

were rejected

if

for the job."

iB.

BELIEF

Irrational

or idea you had about this Activating Event. (Examples: "It would be catastrophic

for the job; I would be pretty worthless as a person." "/ can't stand

me!")

C.

CONSEQUENCES
hostile." "I

had stomach

DISPUTING,
it

is

EFFECT

Coqnitive

how would

or answer you obtained from

EFFECT

I'll

never

or result of your

my

mate."

you did not challenge your

my

if I

DISPUTING

Question A. State here the one

(Examples:

BELIEF

"/

was anxious."

"I

was

"Why would

(iB). (Examples:

were rejected for the job?"

your

mate's screaming,

DISPUTING

irrational

"Why

my

can't I stand

mate's

BELIEF

irrational

my

(iB). Examples:

it;

he or she

is

would not

"It

giving a poor interview would not

can stand

make me

not horrible but merely a

like to stop that

H.

Activities

you would most

like to start that

I.

Emotions and ideas you would most

J.

Specific

homework assignment (s)

BELIEF

your irrational

(iB).

"/ feh

(Examples:

less

anxious."

pains vanished."

BELIEF

you would most

Check

"My stomach

Activities

L.

listed in

recently.

person for screaming.")

Behavioral

What

you experienced

were rejected for the job;

like

K.

about the Activating Event

become a worthless person

G.

(iB),

why

did you not?

you are now doing

you are not doing.

like to

change

given you by your therapist, your group, or yourself

did you actually do to carry out the assignment(s)?

the item

which describes how much you have worked

every day

M.

horrible for screaming at

she horrible for screaming at me?")

if

If

(iB)

CONSEQUENCE

worthless person." "Although

"I felt less hostile to

F.

is

pains.")

be catastrophic, but merely unfortunate,

fallible

bE.

mate's screaming; she

questioning, or challenging you can use to change your irrational

be catastrophic and

screaming and why

cE.

BELIEF

of your irrational

most disturbing emotion, behavior, or

D.

my

How many

(b) several times a

times in the past

week have you

at

week
specifically

your

last

homework assignment (s)

worked

at

changing and

(a) almost

(d) hardly ever.

(c) occasionally

DISPUTING

your irrational

BELIEFS

(iBs)?

N.

What

other things have you specifically done to change your irrational

BELIEFS and

your disturbed emotional

CONSE-

QUENCES?
O.

P.

Check the item which describes how much reading you have recently done of
(a) a considerable amount
(b) a moderate amount
Things you would now

like to discuss

Figure

the material

most with your therapist or group

2.

Page two of Homework Report

on rational-emotive therapy:

(c)

little

or none.

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

185

gives this report just before each session), exactly where he

is

now

and how much work he is doing to help himself improve. The material
on page one also gives, if collected and reviewed after a series of
these reports have been handed in, a consistent set of progress (or
lack of progress!) notes on the client.
2.

On page

two, questions

and practice of

RET

to

E give

and force the

a brief outline of the theory

client, if

he regularly

the answers, to see his disturbances in the light of

RET

fills

out

constructs

and to learn how to apply these constructs to himself. When he

comes in, at the beginning of an individual or group session of RET,
the therapist frequently reads aloud his answers to questions A to
E and "marks" them, as homework assignments are often marked
in an educational setting, in the sense of showing the client whether
or not he has filled out the blanks correctly. The therapist particularly
examines the section of the form where the client has filled in the
rational and the irrational beliefs to make sure that the client has
filled them in properly and is able clearly to distinguish between
these two kinds of ideas. It is almost incredible how many exceptionally bright and well-educated individuals are not able, at first,
to make a clear-cut distinction between their rational and irrational
beliefs, and are able to do so only after the therapist has corrected
their homework assignments several times.

P on the Homework Report indicate how much

main irrational belief in the
interim from the previous therapy session to the present one; what
specific homework assignment he was given and how he worked
3.

Questions

to

the client has worked at disputing his

it; the activities and emotions he would most like

and various other revelant information. All or some of
these questions are reviewed by the therapist, and the client is shown
how to continue to do or to improve his homework in the future
and is impressed with the value of homework thinking and activity.
Dr. Maultsby, in working with the client in the present case, uses
his own homework report, which is fairly similar to the one printed
in these pages; and he goes over these "homeworks" during the
session, usually by having the client read what he has written on
them in between the sessions and then discussing his homework

at

completing

to change;

statements with him. As will be noted in these sessions, he makes

the ''homeworks" a very important part of the therapeutic process.
Other rational-emotive therapists may not stress this part of RET
as much as he does, but they usually give it a prominent place in
their sessions with clients.

MAXIE

186

T^':

C.

MAULTSBY,

JR., M.D.

me, when you stopped therapy, what did you think

about stopping? Did you feel fairly confident that you would
be able to go on by yourself, or did you have reservations,

Well,

tell

or what?
'38.

By

the time the therapy stopped,

very, very elated with the therapy;

I
I

was beginning to feel

was beginning to finally

some basic, substantial changes in my way of thinking;

and I felt very rationally that ''Wow! I can handle anything
now! Like this is great!" I became quite obnoxious about it,
according to my wife and some of my better friends; you know,
whenever anyone would have a problem, I would give them
what I conceived was the rational response, and a lot of people
got sick of me opening my mouth up on their problems with
RET all of the time. But, I didn't care. I didn't care what
they thought about me. And I really felt good. But then the
therapy ended, and I wasn't fully prepared for it, and I felt
like you know well, ''I don't want this to be over, but maybe
I can do it myself anyway." I now feel like if I could have
had another couple of months, it might have been suflficient
don't know. Maybe it was just a question of time I don't
know.
What you are describing happens with about a fourth of my
patients they get to the point that you described: they are
see

'p39.

time they are really

really feeling great; for the first

of themselves; and

someone

else's irrational

an irrational thing to
Ml.

find that they are able to recog-

behavior and comment calmly

and objectively on it, the experience becomes almost intoxicating, and they end up behaving irrationally "rational."
Oh, yes, this is what I am saying. Friends would do something,
and I would say, "Look, you dummy!" which of course was
nize

'40.

when they

in control

That's right,

it

was

environmental

do.

irrational because

RET

clients reach that point in successful

vince themselves,

do

is

work.

"Now

rational. Therefore,
I

am

rational.

rational."

am

when

they usually con-

Everything

say or

more homeperceptions and

don't have to do any

don't have to objectively

thoughts.

resulted in significant

it

conflict for you. But, what's worse, often

examine

rational; everything

my

think

is

by definition

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

C^-:

Yes, they have overconfidence.

T^'^:

Yes, and that

is

the most

written homework.

common

And by

187

reason they stop doing

stopping, they deny themselves

the opportunity to objectively examine and reflect on their

thoughts. They try to do

it

but because they

in their head;

can entertain only one thought at any one moment, they can
never really carefully examine their thoughts. Also, because
they are then convinced that their thinking

anyway, they have

little

is

always rational

motivation for carefully checking

their thoughts against objective reality.

That works

fine, as

long as they are not trying to handle emotional stress. But

at that stage of therapy, in a stressful situation their initial

emotional responses tend to

be their pre-therapy ones,

still

even though their thoughts may be rational. If they don't do

homeworks on those events, that fact tends to be ignored,

and the

clients conclude that, since their

emotions were un-

desirable in spite of their having had rational thoughts, ther-

apy

is

not working or they must be "slipping." The idea that

isn't working leads to less attention to their thoughts,

and soon they are having as many, if not more, irrational
than rational thoughts. Then trying to think a problem
through in their heads becomes a waste of time; irrational
and rational ideas are unwittingly mixed, and soon they return

therapy

to therapy.
C"*^:

But, at the
to

'45.

Not
if

same time,

isn't that

the goal,

mean,

to be able

do homework in your head?

really.

The goal

to get clients to the point that

is

even

they have an irrational emotional response, due to relative

lack of practice in responding rationally, they

nal contact with reality.

They

will

know

remain

in ratio-

that they are having

an inappropriate, irrational emotional response. They

will also

know they still need to put forth more conscious effort to

make their emotional response coincide with their rational
thinking.

They

will realize that it is

working, because they

not that therapy isn't

know therapy never

works. They will

remind themselves that they always must work at therapy.

And they will try harder to teach themselves to respond appropriately to their rational thoughts rather than giving in to
their irrational feelings.

Take you,

for example.

One

of the

MAXIE

188

C.

MAULTSBY,

JR., M.D.

reasons you came back to therapy

is that you are again having

your phobic-like fear of being hit on the head. Now if you

two blocks away being wrecked, you might

immediately start getting your old fear response to the idea
that a piece of stone might fall off and hit you on the head
and give you a concussion and cause you to be psychotic again.
see a stone building

Even though you get the

old fear response, if

practicing the rational thought process about

be constantly thinking things

like, "It's silly to

have this

re-

from two blocks away it

it would
passed the building under the area of wreckage.

sponse to that situation. After

is

you are still

you would

it,

all,

very unlikely that a rock could hit me. However,

be possible

if I

For that reason,

will

now calmly

the chances of a rock coming

all

cross the street. Because

the

way

across the street

and hitting me are so slight, to maintain my fear response

would then be most inappropriate." Now, even though you
were still having an irrational feeling of fear, if those rational
thought processes were firmly established as your reflex or
automatic way of thinking, you would remain in cognitive
control of yourself. By virtue of that control, you would decrease your irrational fear response.

On

the other hand,

if

you had irrational thoughts like "Oh my God, I am going

to get hit! I know I am going to get hit! Isn't it terrible if
I get hit! I better stop going here and take another street.

awful!" plus the fear that was elicited by the sight

if you caught yourself suflficiently
to say to yourself, "Gee whiz, wait a minute, this is irrational;
Oh, this

is

of the falling stones, even

maybe

should try to rationally handle this," the fact that

you had to "catch" yourself would mean, that you have not
learned the rational mental processes well enough to handle
the problem in your head effectively. For that reason, if written homework is indicated, mental analysis will probably be
doomed to failure. Also, were you in rational mental control
and merely crossed the street and passed on by the building,
even if your fear response had not lasted throughout the whole
experience, once you got
a written

homework

home

it

would

still

be well to do

analysis of the whole event just to

sure that your mental processes were

decided they were, then you

know

make

you
you need do is

really rational. If

that

all

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

more imagery
response.
C^s;
T'*'':

189

to eliminate the external, cue-controlled fear

Do you

follow

me?

Yes.

Now, after having done and checked a written homework, you

realistically conclude, "Yes, I was thinking rationally in that
situation;

it is

just that

haven't yet completely changed

emotional response," that

will

mean

my

that you have learned

rational behavior well at the neocortical or thinking centers

of your brain.

Your limbic system or the emotional centers

of your brain are

still

responding the way they usually have,

and you'd better put forth more time and effort in practice
to change that. The first step would be therapeutic imagery,
followed by voluntarily exposing yourself to the stimulus situation again and trying to more rationally control your fear
response.

The therapist gives the

why

client, in these last several

exchanges,

work very hard at his homework,

in between sessions, in order to get deeper and more consistently
held improvement. As a result of his previous sessions and his own
an explanation of

he'd better

work, he has partially learned to think rationally about accidents,

so that the neocortical centers of his brain often respond in a sensible
manner to the prospect of, say, a rock hitting him and giving him
a concussion. But he also believes, perhaps in the limbic areas of
his brain, that if he did get hit by a rock and had a concussion
again, he would have to go through the same sort of psychotic episode
that he previously had. Moreover, he still concludes (as humans are
wont to conclude) that if this happened again, it would be awful
or terrible (rather than merely inconvenient or disadvantageous).
Consequently, he frequently responds with his old phobic reactions
(to which, again in the limbic areas of his brain, he is still somewhat
habituated).

The theory of RET, as Dr. Maultsby points out, is that since the
deepest levels of the client's thinking and acting dysfunctionally
have probably been arrived at by his continually, repetitively convincing himself that accidents can easily occur and that it would
be awful if they did occur, and by his steadily acting (in his overt
habits) on these unfounded assumptions, the main way for him to
counterattack his deepest-seated convictions and behavior patterns
is

for

him now

and steadily contradict

what the homework reports

to continually, repetitively,

these assumptions and behaviors. That

is

MAXIE

190

C.

MAULTSBY,

JR., M.D.

and assignments, given to him by the therapist or himself, largely

serve as this kind of an ongoing, reiterated thinkingemoting-behaving counter-conditioning. If he does them incisively,
forcefully, and repetitively enough, he will ultimately believe, feel,
and act, on both his cortical and his subcortical levels of behaving,
do:

in a semiautomatically sensible fashion.

Q4S

Yes, tomorrow

is

May

9.

Yes, so what?

That

My

is

the anniversary of

response to that

is

the

my

accident.

same

as

it

was

at the first

May

9 anniversary.
'52.

know,

know, but

have been getting a little more appreAnd then the riots [between

hensive as the time gets closer.

students and police] broke out.
area,

and

live in

the middle of the riot

know what is causing what. But since the

seem to be really getting more and more

don't

riots started,

worried that something might happen to me. Tell me, do you

think this
lars'

is

went out, and I bought twenty dollumber, and I boarded up all of our windows.

irrational?

worth of

T^^:

What do you

C'^^:

think that

think about
it is

rocks through the

It

it?

way of insuring that nobody will throw

window and possibly hit me or my wife.

can also keep the police from throwing tear gas in the

apartment.
'55.

All right.

Why

do you ask

me

if I

the whole point of teaching you

homework

think

how

rational? I mean,
and insisting that

it is

to do,

you a definite, specific

way of determining whether or not something is rational:
you

do, written

namely analyzing

it

in the

is

to give

A-B-C-D homework format. Now,

you obviously were feeling some apprehension or

fear,

which

motivated you to put up the boarding, right? Now, to decide

whether that was rational or irrational behavior you need to

do a homework report on it and consider the facts and events
as you gave them to me. If your self-talk were the same as
you described it here, I would probably think that your behavior was rational. My reasons would be, (1) I understand that
the police threw tear gas into the lobby of the hospital; that

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

191

indicates that police can get pretty wild and indiscriminate

about where they throw tear gas.

(2) At the height of policestudent confrontations, according to the news reports, the

police often break as

many windows

as the students do. (3)

understand the police have indiscriminately thrown tear

gas into apartments in your area during riots. Consequently
I

those are very realistic reasons for boarding up the windows

of

homes

in potential riot areas.

necessarily

ing

mean

However, those facts don't

that you were responding to rational think-

when you boarded your windows. You can behave

tionally" for irrational reasons.

mary motivation

We

making your

need to consider your

"rapri-

was talking about

protecting your wife and yourself from tear gas and protecting your windows from already demonstrated probable damage. But if your primary concern was the possibility of a rock
coming through the window, hitting you on the head, causing
a concussion and psychosis, because that is very unlikely, I
would be less likely to call your thinking rational. Then I'd
have to say your behavior was irrationally motivated and advise a homework analysis. If you had done homework, you

C''^':

decision.

would have been better able to determine for yourself if your

behavior were rational or not. Do you see what I mean?
The probable danger was my first motivation. I don't know
if I

'57.

in

invented other ones or not.

Well, look at

it

like this:

to protect yourself

From what you

described, to

want

from tear gas seems perfectly realistic and

board up your windows. So it becomes

sufficient reason to

a matter of your relative concern, of fear of the probable

dangers already described, versus the most improbable event

of a rock being thrown through the window, hitting you on
the head, and causing another concussion. If the latter were

your primary concern, then boarding up the windows would

probably be an example of objectively rational behavior, done
for very irrational reasons. Therefore you would need to do
a written homework on the situation to redirect your thinking

toward the objective

'58.

reality.

Do you

see

what

mean?

think the riot occurring near the magic day had a

lot to

seemed like there was greater justification than

there would be had either one occurred separately.
do with

it.

It

MAXIE

192
159.

C.

MAULTSBY,

JR., M.D.

No, no, no. That's merely a misperception and a more subtle

form of self-deception.

It is like

saying,

''If I

four unfortunate things happen to me, then

get upset; but

if

is

logical to

only one unfortunate thing happens,

be illogical to get upset." The reality

is,

unfortunate thing happens to you, you

it

would

when more than one

may have

stimulus to get upset. But since getting upset

in order to

have three or
it

is

a greater

unnecessary

do whatever you can about the unfortunate events,

and since being upset may interfere with your doing what
you can do to change the unfortunate situation, you risk
merely adding injury to insult by getting upset. The point
is,

it

is

irrational to get undesirably upset about anything,

ever. Granted, because

no human

is

perfect, everyone will get

upset some time. But that fact does not

make

ting emotionally upset a less irrational act.

will ultimately die;

but that does not

the act of get-

It's like,

make death

everyone
a healthy

or desirable event.

Dr. Maultsby emphasizes here

two

of the points that are quite

frequently made in RET: (1) Human upsetness does not stem from
activating events, no matter how unfortunate and unfair these may
be, but

from the individual's

belief

system about these events from

the conscious or unconscious shoulds, oughts, and musts he foolishly

connects with, or contends should be connected with, them. Consequently, he never really has to get upset. (2) When he does become
irrationally overconcerned or overemotional about anything, he
usually decreases his chances of correcting and truly protecting himself in regard to that thing. By making himself, for example, utterly
panicked about student-police riots, he reduces his chances of (a)
calmly avoiding such riots himself and (b) working vigorously, in
conjunction with other concerned citizens, to reduce the incidence
of rioting. As soon as he escalates the rational belief, ''I very much
want to avoid getting hurt in riots and suffering a possible concussion thereby" into the irrational belief, ''I absolutely must not be
hurt in a riot, for that would completely destroy me!" he not only
needlessly upsets himself (as opposed to cautiously alerting himself),

but he also tends significantly to reduce his ability to cope with

rioting in case it does occur as well as his ability to possibly do
something to prevent rioting.

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

C^":

But if everybody does something, wouldn't

if one person didn't do it?

T^'^:

No, no, no.

We

or

As long

may

be irrational

it

are not concerned here with everybody;

are concerned only with you and your

may

193

life.

What

we

other people

not be doing has no necessary bearing on you.

as your behavior meets these two criteria for rational

behavior (1)

want out

it

keeps you

alive,

and

(2) it

gets you what you

of life without significant personal or environmental

conflict your behavior will be rational and you can forget

other people. Now,

mean

is,

say ''forget other people," but what

refuse to inappropriately concern yourself with them.

As long

as you behave in a

manner

significant environmental conflict,

usual courteous,

from doing

civil

that keeps you out of

you

will

be doing

all

the

things toward people, and you will refrain

uncivil, cruel things to people.

That

is all

any sane

person or society asks of anyone.

C^'^:

Then, what you are saying

dent of anything

else,

is

that rational thinking

is

indepen-

and no amount of misery or misfortune

that piles up on one person should be able to snap him.

T^^:

No,

am

not saying that.

am

saying that however

many

unfortunate things happen to you, to respond to them irrationally

is

just adding another unfortunate event to the ones

you already have.

C^^^:

Doesn't
if

T^-^:

it

he has a

become more
lot of

likely that a

person will get upset

problems at once?

becomes more likely, but it does not become any more

justifiable. It isn't any more logical; it isn't more reasonable.
That is what I have been trying to explain to you. When you
listen to the tape of this session, maybe you will see it. The
main point for you to see here is that you are trying to make
Yes,

it

your increased probability of responding irrationally justify

your behaving irrationally. That is the same type of reasoning
the police and National Guard use for killing people.

say things like ''Well,

if

They

they hadn't been calling us pigs and

been saying XYZ things, we w^ouldn't have gotten mad enough

to shoot them." I say "Bullshit!" If a person is not sane enough
to distinguish a pig from a human being, then society is being
irresponsible to the taxpayers to put a

hands. Granted

it

is

more

gun

in that person's

difficult to control

oneself

when

MAXIE

194

MAULTSBY,

C.

people are saying personally distasteful things, but

required that
a course of

all

people allowed to carry guns

RET, we would have fewer people

of inability to distinguish

JR., M.D.

were
undergo

if it

first

killed because

between pigs and human beings,

or other such childish behavior. Rather than giving in to irrational impulses to kill people

usual to control oneself,

rational, to put forth

see

what

there

mean?

it

when
more

it is

more difficult than

more logical and

sane,

effort to control oneself.

Do you

even though there have been

riots or

more

So,

is

the potential for riots in your neighborhood, there

is

you to begin behaving irrationally. From a rational point of view, you now have all the
more reason to try harder than ever to behave rationally. Do
still is

no

logical justification for

you understand what

In his

RET.

T^^'^

mean?

response. Dr. Maultsby brings out two important aspects

he refers to the

client's listening to the tape recording

frequently found, in rational-emotive therapy,
that if a client makes a recording of his therapy session and takes
it home with him to play over and over (usually on a cassette re-

of

First,

of his session. It

is

corder), he gets

much more out

the session he

is

of the session. This is because during

in responding to the therapist that
absorbed
so
he often does not hear all that goes on in the course of it. Moreover,
even when he does hear clearly, he easily forgets many of the therapist's salient points
not merely because he is resisting therapy or
because he wants to forget, but also because, being human, he has
a faUible memory and easily and naturally forgets even things he
very much wants to retain. Again, if he listens to the session several
times during the week, he thereby gets a repetitive message from
the therapist and keeps reminding himself about what his problem
actually is and what some of the ways are he can work effectively
on it. For several reasons, then, recordings appear to be an important

aid to

RET

sessions.

Secondly, Dr. Maultsby tries to show the client not only that

RET

an effective form of treatment for disturbed individuals but that

it can be generally applied to the problems of so-called normal or
healthy persons and even to the social problems of the world. For
if, as he notes, people really thought straightly about themselves
and others, and refused to condemn those with whom they significantly differ (as the students condemn the ''pig" cops, and the cops
is

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

195

condemn the "communist"

students), the world would probably be

place
in
which
live. Although this generalized, social
better
to
a
may
not come into play in a series of therapy sessions,
aspect of RET
it

often

C6:

is

useful to refer to

it,

as the therapist does in this response.

Yes, but what about the headaches?

don't see any

rationally dealing with a headache.

mean, you know you

way

of

and you handle your reaction to it as rationally

as you can, but you still have it. I mean, rational thinking
can't make your head stop hurting.

just have

'67.

it,

it depends on what causes the headache. Now, if your

headache is the result of nervous tension, then of course rational thinking would be the therapy of choice. If your headache

Well,

is

the result of somebody hitting you on the head with a billy

club,

then rational therapy won't help the pain, but

could

how to avoid being beaten over the head. Do

mean? What RET can do about headaches is

help you learn

you see what

RET

a function of the probable cause of the headache.

Is it

unreasonable to assume that the probable cause of

headaches
Yes,
Well,

it is

is

my

my

old concussion?

most unreasonable.

my

concern

with dealing with the headaches, and

is

hopefully there will be something that can end them.

^71.

How
How

do you deal with them now?

do

deal with

with them

is

to

them?

go to

find that the best

way

to deal

sleep, to take a nap.

^^73

Okay. Does that usually control them?

C74

Well,

^^75

Headaches due to concussion do not consistently respond to

sleep. On the other hand, headaches due to irrationally handled

when

wake up they

are usually gone.

mental and emotional stress very often respond well to

Excessive sleep

is

common

neurotic

way

creasing anxiety. Also, just because your

X77.

to be going well, that does not

mean

free of all mental and emotional

That almost sounds Freudian.

stress.

No, not at

all.

sleep.

of avoiding or de-

life

situation

seems

that you have to be

I'm not talking about any unconscious stress.

MAXIE

196

am

who

T^^:

MAULTSBY,

thinking of the stereotype of the poor

says,

You

have everything;

''I

JR., M.D.

little rich

should be happy, but

kid

am

what I mean?
In my case I seem to get them in all emotional situations,
when Vm happy or unhappy.
Yes, but regardless of how happy you are, if for any reason
you become irrationally concerned about the possibility of havnot."

C"^:

C.

see

ing a headache or the possibility of getting hit on the head,

you can create an anxiety response. For people who think
irrationally, there is no necessary inverse relationship between

happiness and worry.

Many

such people worry because they

are happy; they worry about the possibility of their happiness

ending. In effect, such people are afraid not to worry. As a

matter of
C80:

Yes.

T^^:

Yes,

fact,

wasn't that one of your old habits?

remember, when you would

realize that for a short

period of time you have not worried about something, you

immediately began to worry about having overlooked something that you ''should" be worried about, and you worried
about that.
C^^:

Yes. But

the

way

it

seems that what you are

to deal

with the headaches

is

really saying

is

that

not to deal with the

headaches, but to deal with the things which are probably

producing the headache.

T^^:

Yes and

no. It

is

logical to take a pain-killer for the headache,

provided you consult an internist for the investigation of possible physical causes for

them. Also,

if

you have mental and

emotional problems that are often associated with headache,

it

would be well

to investigate

and evaluate those possible

causes of your headache, do you see what

C84:

Yes.

T^"^:

think that your current situation

is

mean?

no different

in

kind

from your original situation. You are not perceiving your

world as realistically as you are capable of doing, and you
are not thinking as rationally as you apparently were when
you left RET. If that is true, you cannot get the same type
of rational results you were getting then. In other words,

what

has happened to you was perfectly predictable on the basis

of rational learning theory.

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

Benefiting from rational therapy

is

197

no different

in its proc-

from benefiting from learning a foreign language. When

you learn a foreign language, you are in fact learning a new
ess

way

to think.

You

are learning

how

to think about the

things but using different sounds, words,

are

still

learning a

new way

to think, but

same

RET

you
you are learning

etc.

to think different things in response to the

In

same

stimulus.

you are learning a new way to think. Since you

have taken a foreign language, you know that after a year
of diligently studying and practicing it, you can be at the
point that would be analogous to where you were in RET

The point

is,

when therapy was

stopped.

You

could

meet a person who spoke

him

the foreign language, and you could start talking with

without having to do much mental translation. You could probably be thinking and talking for the most part in the foreign

language, thereby making your conversation relatively fluent

and natural.
When you stopped taking the course, you no longer went
to the language lab; you no longer studied nor practiced. Most
probably, if you tried to practice with your American friends
who took the same course, they rebuffed you by saying, "Look,
man, the course is over. I don't want to hear that anymore,"
just as your friends did when you attempted to practice rational thinking on them. Being out of therapy and no longer
being reinforced for practicing rational thinking, your tendency was to go back to your old pre-therapy habits of perceiving and thinking. Because you knew that way best, once you
started actively using it, you tended to immediately fall back
into the old response patterns because they were still easier
for you than the rational ones were. And, as with the foreign
language, if even though you stopped actively trying to practice it with other people, you continued mentally practicing
by yourself, listening to tapes, and reading and writing in
the language, you would not have lost much of your ability
to use it. The same would have been true of your skills at
perceiving and thinking rationally. But once therapy stopped,
and your friends refused to tolerate your practicing on them,
you stopped using the principles you had learned in RET.
Because your life then was going fairly well, you probably

MAXIE

198

MAULTSBY,

C.

JR., M.D.

convinced yourself that you did not need to practice any more
because you were ''rational." But, the reality even then of
what you knew best was your pre-therapy irrational thinking
habits. So as situations arose and, more specifically, as emotionally charged situations arose

because

practice with irrational responses, you

of your years of

were much more

likely

to respond irrationally than to respond rationally. Because

you
were no longer doing homeworks, you had shut yourself completely off from RET, except for your memory. You tried to
mentally solve your problems, and at first maybe you did have
some success. But, gradually the strength of your irrational
tendencies took over and pretty soon you gave up completely.
That is my analysis of the situation.
The rational solution is to reverse that process. You are
not the only one who has the same problem. I find that about
10 percent of

my patients recontact me

complaining that

either "is not working" or "is not working like

To

eflficiently

routine. It's

handle such cases,

all

out and read

it

it

used

RET
to."

have worked out a relapse

explained in this handout.

at least five times before

You take

the hand-

your next session.

As is also noted in some of the other cases in this book, Dr.

Maultsby does not hesitate to use bibliotherapy in addition to the
other RET methods that he employs. For it has been found that
some of the main messages or teachings that are often conveyed
during RET sessions can also be included in written articles or books;
that clients, when given this pertinent material, frequently read
it over and over, making their own significant underlinings; that
they sometimes specifically refer to it when they are especially anxious, depressed, guilty, or angry; and that they may even get as
much or more of the RET message via this type of reading than
they do during their actual individual or group sessions.
Consequently, most RET clients are given handouts after the first
session or during subsequent sessions of therapy; and they are also
encouraged to read certain RET books especially. How to Live With
a Neurotic (Ellis, 1969a); A Guide to Rational Living (Ellis & Harper,
1970); A Guide to Successful Marriage (Ellis & Harper, 1968); Reason
and Emotion in Psychotherapy (Ellis,, 1962); and How to Prevent Your
Child from Becoming a Neurotic Adult (Ellis, Wolfe, & Moseley,

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

199

1966). Clinical findings, so far, consistently show such reading may

be enormously helpful to some clients.
The specific handout that Dr. Maultsby gave the client in this

was one he wrote himself, "Why Former RET Clients May Need
and Desire Further Therapy." It explains, in much more detail than
some of his comments in the first session, why RET sometimes
doesn't continue to work with certain clients; what skills are usually
required for optimal mental and emotional health; how individuals
can lead "normal" lives even when they are born and reared with
a strong tendency to lead "abnormal" ones; why both environment
and heredity are important factors in emotional disturbance; and
how and why some clients stop working at RET. It gives excerpts
from sessions with a nineteen-year-old girl and a twenty-year-old
college student, both of whom had relapsed. It ends with this section
on the important characteristics of relapsed clients:
case

all of the characteristics former RET clients have

are likely to desire and return for further therapy at some future

Both clients cited had

who
date:

They did not give up the unrealistic belief that they as human beings
same as their behavior. Instead of continuing, as they were taught
RET, merely to rate their performances and not their selves, they irratio-

1.

are the
in

nally returned to rating these selves. Seeing that they at first successfully
used rational thinking to solve some of the serious problems they brought
to therapy, these clients concluded, "I am now rational." To them that meant

that they couldn't possibly have seriously irrational thoughts or beliefs.

Therefore, they saw little point in continuing to do homework or even bothering to think, using the rational rhetoric and/or the rational thought
framework. They no longer viewed their emotional difficulties as evidence
that they might not be thinking rationally, but mainly viewed them as
evidence that "RET isn't working" or "I didn't have enough RET inside
of me" at the end of their first series of therapy sessions. They viewed
RET as a magical power operating independently of themselves and of
their

pre-RET attitudes.
Even though they had done

well in therapy, they refused to discuss

were in treatment, probably because they believed that those ideas either were rational or were superior
to any conflicting ideas that the therapist or their therapy group might
2.

some of

their irrational ideas while they

have brought to their attention. So they carried their undiscussed irrational

attitudes and beliefs away from RET unchanged. Because these residual
beliefs were irrational, they were constant sources of inappropriate emotional behavior which the clients then mistook as evidence that "RET is
no longer working."
3. Even though these relapsed clients occasionally did effective written
homework analysis of their current problems, thereby demonstrating that
they could still work with RET methods, at some point they usually stopped
doing homework altogether.

200

MAXIE

C.

MAULTSBY,

JR., M.D.

In summary, former RET clients can well use further therapy when they
either never completely replace their pre-therapy irrational ideas with rational ones or they stop working with and acting on the more rational beliefs

they learned in RET. When either or both of these things happen, they
often return to their pre-RET thought patterns, and they get poor emotional
and behavior results consonant with their irrational beliefs.

SECOND SESSION
The

week later,
homework reports,

client returns for his second session a

that he has been too busy to do any

reports

that he

catastrophized about passing some of his courses at school, and that

he has returned to his old habit of not being able to sleep very
well at night. The therapist shows him, once again, that it is unlikely
that he will get and remain better unless he makes sure that he
finds the time to do steady homework analysis. He also spends a
good deal of the session explaining to the client what the difference
is between his wanting very much to do something, such as succeed
at school, and his thinking that he has to succeed in this respect.
The former goal, he indicates is functional, while the latter goal
results in extreme anxiety and malfunctioning. But the former goal,
or any set of rational goals, is not likely to be achieved until the
client gets back to consistently doing homeworks.
The therapist keeps after the client, during the next few sessions,
to do his homework assignments regularly and to keep listening
to the tape recordings of the sessions themselves. As he does this,
the client seems to get back into the routine, which he used during
his original series of sessions, of taking RET much more seriously
and applying it a good many times a week, in between his therapeutic sessions.

FIFTH SESSION
The client shows some progress but is not sure that it is not mainly
because things are going better for him and that therefore he has
had a good mood change. The therapist shows him that he can keep
himself in a good mood through using RET, even when things go
wrong in his life. The client then reports on another of the homework
assignments that he has been doing in between sessions:
C^:

Okay, here
the dog and

is

another homework. Facts and events:

went out

to the

took

farm where we have a garden

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

201

to work. I felt extremely happy, almost ecstatic for an extended period of time. Self-talk during the time: This is so
great. We have this huge garden; we are growing our own

vegetables.

We

met Tom and Judy who are very warm and

we have

interesting people;

we want

to

free use of their farm any time

come out here and enjoy the countryside. We have

we have a place to stay whenever

a place to run the dog;

we want

to;

day, and

it

am

we have companions
really feels

for the dog;

it is

a beautiful

good to be doing work outside; and

very, very happy. Emotions: Ecstatic happiness, a kind

of joy. Rational self-talk: It

interesting people

however

it is

who

fortunate that

have met some

allow us the use of their land at will;

not great, and

And

of positive emotion.

is

it

does not merit this outpouring

once again, making

primarily dependent upon external reality that

my
I

emotions
have little

would be well were I to make my emotions

dependent upon internal cues which I create myself. By following the same reasoning, were Tom and Judy to suddenly
grow cold and deny us the use of their land, or the day to
grow cold and rainy, or were I unable to use my muscles,
then I would be plunged into despair as profound as my joy
is ecstatic. What has happened is all positive, advantageous,
control over. It

but

it

was

T'^:

my

accidental, not attained because

defined

it

as

my

most satisfactory life adjustment.

Rational emotions: Happiness, definite positive emotions,
deep contentment.
Good. It sounds like you are progressing. Now, did I tell you
about therapeutic imagery?
part of

goals for

C'^:

No.

T^:

Well,

C^:

Starting with the rational emotions.

T^:

Yes.

when you get

where you can write consistently rational homeworks like that, then it would be well
to set aside a minimum of a half-hour per day in which you
do therapeutic imagery. Therapeutic imagery is merely mentally rehearsing events that you have worked out rationally
in the homeworks.

Now, you

ignore

all

to the point

re-create the whole scene mentally, but you

of your irrational self-talk and concentrate only on

your rational

self-talk, the rational

emotions you

will learn

MAXIE

202

C.

MAULTSBY,

JR., M.D.

have as a result of consistently thinking and believing your

rational self-talk. You are mentally rehearsing or mentally
to

picturing yourself behaving rationally, having rationally desirable

and

logical

emotional responses. That's

ficiently build the cognitive

maps

how you

ef-

that guide your therapeutic

self-change. Understand?
C^:

Yes.

T^:

That's therapeutic imagery. That's where you correct past

also where you learn to efficiently
and phobias. You see, one of the main
reasons people maintain irrational behavior is they don't have
realistic mental frames of reference for behaving otherwise.
They can't picture themselves behaving any differently from
the way they always have. However, after you nave taught
yourself the realistic, rational attitude toward your problem
or behavior, therapeutic imagery allows you to mentally practice emoting that behavior, thereby increasing the probabiHty
of success in the real-life situation. For example, for the client
who has always had bad relations with her parents: Before

irrational behavior. It

is

control irrational fears

she goes

home

for vacation,

get her to start therapeutic

imagery, seeing herself utilizing the basic concepts of rational

thinking, like "I don't have to get upset;
I

can stand

it; it's

it

really isn't terrible;

merely inconvenient; getting upset serves

no useful purpose," and soon she sees herself actually achieving those goals. Understand?

taking a probable event and its appropriate emoworking with them to get a realistic mental picture
of how you want to behave.

Yes.

C^:

It is

tions,

Ti^>:

Right.

RET, once

its

philosophic premises are accepted, can

make

use

of a large variety of therapeutic methods, including the technique

imagery outlined by the therapist during this session.

might appear to be a form of "positive thinking,"
as originally espoused by Emile Coue (1923) and later revived on
a grand scale by Norman Vincent Peale (1962). For in Coueism, for
example, the individual tells himself something like, "Day by day
in every way I'm getting better and better," and suggestively influ-

of therapeutic

At

first blush, this

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

203

ences himself in this manner so that sometimes he actually does

get better; and in Peale's form of "positive thinking," a fairly similar
methodology is employed.
In RET, however, therapeutic imagery is employed not merely
for the individual to convince himself that

God

own magical powers, he

somehow, through the

get better, but that

he doesn't have to think negatively and that he can contradict his
irrational ideas. Thus, in the illustration Dr. Maultsby uses in response T^, the individual who is going home for a vacation and has
always had bad relations with her parents does not, normally, realize
that these poor relations do not stem from her parents' unfortunate
behavior at point A, but from her irrational belief system at point
from her vigorously convincing herself, "They shouldn't act the
help of

or his

will

way they

do. I can't stand it! It's awful that they're acting that
have to get upset when I see them and they behave in that
crummy manner. Maybe if I get terribly upset at them, they'll actually change." In RET, she would learn to pointedly dispute, contradict, and challenge these unvalidatable hypotheses. By RET therapeutic imagery she can imagine herself doing this kind of challenging, and through this kind of imagery she can actually rehearse
speaking to herself differently about her parents and then behave
differently toward them when she actually sees them.
Therapeutic imagery, therefore, as Dr. Maultsby indicates to his
client, reinforces and strengthens rational thinking by helping the
individual become convinced that she can think much more rationally
than she usually does. If she, pollyanna-like, tells herself, "Let me
envision myself actually getting along well with my parents and
that will make me get along with them," she is merely voicing a
pious hope and quite probably will later fall into her old negative
patterns toward them, even if she at first treats them somewhat
better. But if she tells herself, "Let me envision working at changing
my own philosophy about my parents and using my newer, more
rational philosophy when I meet them again on my vacation," she
will have a better chance of helping herself think straight (instead
of merely acting as if she were thinking straight) and thereby of
changing some of her fundamental irrational assumptions. It is not
that positive thinking or various kinds of role-playing cannot work
in therapy, for there is much clinical and some experimental evidence
that they can. But they generally are inelegant solutions to the
problem of human disturbance and are much enhanced and deepened
when they are combined with a genuine irrational-philosophyattacking method, for which RET is most noted.

way!

MAXIE

204
11.

C.

MAULTSBY,

JR., M.D.

Okay, I have another homework I want to read. What happened was I was on the way to the gas station; a car pulled

up alongside of me very quietly, and I did not notice it. Then

it suddenly accelerated very loudly. The noise frightened me
very much. I swerved in the opposite direction, almost striking
a parked car. Self-talk: The whole thing happened so quickly
that I was unaware of the actual self-talk. I assumed that
it was an example of thought-shorthand-produced response,
and the relationships must have gone something like this: The
car is going to hit me, and I'll get into another accident and
have another concussion and mess up my whole life. Emotions:
Fear. Possible self-talk. Since it was thought shorthand, I

how
remember

wasn't sure
T^2;

to handle

it.

RET

assumption is that behavior

you have to do is reference yourself
and your past behavior potentials and behavior patterns, and
then try to explain your behavior in a way that would make
Well,

a basic

always makes sense. So

all

sense to you. Usually, you can

Q13.

make an

accurate estimate of

what most probably you are responding to, and therefore you
can decide what would be more rational responses.
What I wrote was: The noise of a car accelerating beside me
means nothing. What else could I logically expect to hear on
a busy street near rush hour?

have heard that noise hundreds

I drive a car, and usually I pay no attenSimply because I noticed it once means nothing
except that the car next to me accelerated. Even if it had
hit me, which would have been unfortunate, from that position
the chances of sustaining another concussion would have been
very, very small. And even if I did have another concussion,
that too would not be catastrophic, only very unpleasant; I
probably could handle it in the same way I have learned to
handle the first concussion. Therefore, the rational emotion

of times, every time

tion to

it.

to that situation
Ti^:

Right.

C^'^:

Then

now

is

indifference.

later on in the day, thinking about this,

about failing to be more rational than

T^^':

'17.

Now

got depressed

am.

then you were being irrational about being

which is also being irrational.

So

did a

homework on

it.

irrational,

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

T^^:

Great, and

205

hope that you pointed out to yourself that you

human being, which means that you are

are only a fallible

going to make mistakes even in your pursuit of rational thinking, and even now responding irrationally doesn't mean that
you have lost all of your gains. It just means that at that
time you w^ere not responding as rationally as you would like
responded nor as rationally as you hope to become

to have

able to consistently do.

C^^:

Should

read that homew^ork on the depression over not being

rational?
T-^^:

No, time

is

we can go

over

it

next time

if

you w^ant to

it

just

w^e will

In

up;

out, but I am sure it w^as okay if you included points

made. All the things I said are on the tape, so if there
anything you are still concerned about in the next session,

check
I

is

RET,

it

go over

it

then.

can hardly be emphasized enough that the

the therapist notes in T^^,

RET

is

a fallible

human

client, as

being, and that his

he thinks that he has to be perAnd then

he will either condemn himself and feel anxious and guilty; or else
he will cover up and assume that he is being rational, w^hen he is
not; or else he will tend to conclude that there is no use in his even
attempting to be rational and will give up entirely on his homew^ork.
If he accepts himself as a human w^ho can be fairly sensible, but
who often is not, and who can keep steadily working to improve
but never completely achieve his owm rationality, he will finally
strike a medium and accept himself with his errors, w^hile still trying
ceaselessly to minimize these errors.
Glasser (1965), MowTer (1964), and other therapists of the ''reality"
school tend to stress that the client is utterly capable of controlling
his own destiny, that he is quite responsible for his actions, and
that therefore he'd damned w^ell better admit this and better do
something about changing his behavior. This is, of course, correct;
and showing the client this frequently does him a service, in that
it show^s him that there is no other way for him to improve than
his w^orking his head off to do so. RET therapists frequently do
the same thing and have, in fact, been doing so for years before
"reality" therapy was invented. They have also been confronting
clients very directly with their wrongdoings, and insisting that these
clients would better stop their nonsense and admit to themselves
fallibility

extends to

itself. If

fectly rational, he will of course fail to achieve that goal.

MAXIE

206

C.

MAULTSBY,

JR., M.D.

and others that they are really lousing themselves up, long before
the Synanon-type group leaders (Yablonsky, 1965) and the encounter

movement

therapists (Burton, 1969) started to use direct confronta-

tion methods.

The

RET

message, however,

is

significantly different

from the

reality therapy message, in that if clients do not get off their rumps,

accept responsibility for their

own

certedly to help themselves which

disordered behavior, and act conis quite frequently the case the

means insinuates that they are no-goodniks who

deserve to suffer but very clearly tries to show them that they can
still accept themselves in spite of their goofing. He thereby invariably helps them to accept themselves while he is trying to induce
them to change their dysfunctional behavior. This method may occasionally boomerang, since the disturbed individual may use RET
as a cop-out, and tell himself, "Well, I'm not really a louse for shirking
my responsibilities to myself and others; therefore I might as well
therapist by no

keep shirking." For the most part, however, he does not seem to
cop out in this manner and instead does learn to change his behavior
without condemning himself. In fact, the RET hypothesis is that
he thereby has a better chance of ridding himself of his symptoms
(since he does not divert himself into foolish, time- and energy-wasting self-condemnation), and that he also winds up with a more elegant, more deeply philosophic solution to his general and specific
problems.

where the client in reality therapy may do the

wrong reasons correct his behavior because he
would view himself (as his therapist, too, might view him) as a crumb
if he did not correct it the RET client tends to do the right thing
for the right reasons correct his behavior because he thereby is
likely to become a happier and at the same time more tolerant person. The RET client winds up more truly independent of the need
for others' approval than virtually any other kind of client; and this
advantage presumably outweighs the advantages of techniques of
That

is

to say,

right thing for the

exhortation used in certain other kinds of treatment.

SIXTH SESSION
The therapist continues to prod the client to do his homework
assignments, and goes over them regularly with him- during the
sessions, to correct them and to suggest better and more specific
ways for him to perceive and to counterattack his irrational ideas.

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

207

Here is a typical exchange where the client does his homework assignment reasonably well, but where the therapist shows him how
to be still more precise about doing it.

C^:

Now

for the

be rational.

homework.

Do you remember

myself because of

my

homework on my

did a

that

you that

told

failure to

depressed

irrational reaction to the thing about

the car?
T'-^:

Oh, yes,

C'^:

remember.

my fear reaction to the sudden

and unexpected acceleration of the car next to me. Irrational
Belief: 'There I go again, acting like a fool because some noise
depressed myself because of

scared me.

haven't learned anything in therapy;

just

go

right on having these ridiculous reactions to the simplest

noises;

This

it is

is

like

being afraid of the dark, for heaven's sake!

not going to get any better;

is all

it

because

so stupid!" Emotions: Depression, resignation to an

life.

Rational self-talk: "Simply because

manner
no

realistic

reason to depress myself.

kinds of emotions and reactions

if I

am

has nothing to do with

not stupid.

am

my

work hard enough and

the car incident

initial

T^:

is

much more

RET

in this particu-

any case,
intelligence and per-

intelligence. In

above average in

formance. To depress myself over

case, this is

can get rid of those

long enough at RET. The failure to utilize

lar case

am

acted in an irrational

any other

in this particular case or in

unhappy

my

failure to use

RET

in

irrational reaction than the

fear reaction.

Now, that homework is indirectly, rather than directly, rationally done. To have gotten the most mileage out of your

[disputing] section,

it

would have been better

a sentence-for-sentence challenge of your

to start

with

[belief] section,

because those were the specific thoughts that resulted in your

depression, you see?
C-^:

Yes.

T^:

Also,

if I

w^anted to label a theme in that homework,

it

would

be "a typical example of your automatized catastrophizing

habit," you see?
C":

Yes.

MAXIE

208

T^:
C^:
T^^^:

C^^:

Read the first sentence.

Of the D?
Of the B.
The B. "There I go again acting

C.

MAULTSBY,

like a fool just

JR., M.D.

because some

noise scared me."

T12.

Okay. Now,

would have responded to that sentence with,

"If I defined the way I acted as being the way a fool would
act, okay, I acted like a fool. But because I realize that I am
not the same as my behavior, there is no reason to be upset
because I behaved foolishly." Number two?
I

Dr. Maultsby refers again, in his response T^^, to the point that

"[because] I

am

not the same as

to be upset because

RET

behaved

my

behavior, there

is

no reason

foolishly." This is a point that

many

have difficulty getting, and that has to be gone over

several times in most cases. For the individual, of course, is his
behavior in the sense that (1) he himself, and nobody else, performs
this behavior, and he is therefore responsible for it; and (2) his totalclients

all the behavior

ever in the future perform.
But what the RET therapist means when he points out to the
client that he is not the same thing as his behavior is the following:
1. All the individual's behavior cannot possibly ever be known.
Therefore, there is no accurate way of seeing what he is, though
there are fairly accurate means of measuring various aspects of what
he does for example, how well he does at studying, working, playing

ity, his

being, his existence consists essentially of

he engages

in

and

will

and so on.
To say that a human being is anything is invariably an overgeneralization, and a misleading one. As Bourland (1969), a general
semanticist, has shown, to employ any form of the verb to be about
a person is to overcategorize him and his actions. Thus, if we say
"John plays ball a good deal of the time," or "John has some excellent
sports,
2.

we may be saying something accurate about

we say "John is a ball-player," we strongly imply that
he does practically nothing but play ball. And if we say, "John is
an excellent ball-player," we imply that he does well at virtually
all aspects of ball-playing, when the chances are he actually does
ball-playing abilities,"

John. But

if

poorly at some of them and well at several aspects. Similarly, if

Dr. Maultsby's client tells himself, "Some of my actions were foolish,"

he

is

he may be correct. But if he adds, "Therefore I am a fool,"

almost certainly overgeneralizing and is hence incorrect.

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

209

A human

being is an ongoing process and is constantly changing.

therefore inaccurate to measure him on the basis of any of
his past or present behavior which merely shows, at most, what
3.

It is

he has done up to

do from now on.

4. Although it

now

but doesn't necessarily show what he

may

may

be theoretically possible (albeit very difficult)

and above assessing his behavior,
usually unwnse to make this assessment. For once we say some-

to rate or assess a person over

it is

thing like "John is good because his acts are good" or "John is bad
because his acts are bad," we tend to make a self-fulfilling prophecy
about him at least, if he accepts our judgment of him. For if John
views himself as good, he will tend to continue to do good deeds,
and if he views himself as bad, he will tend to continue to do bad
deeds. Our (and his own) assessments of him, therefore, importantly
tend to influence his future acts. Moreover, since John (being human)
will invariably be error-prone and fallible, and since he sooner or
later will inevitably do some pretty poor acts, we will tend ultimately

view him as bad rather than as good, he will tend to accept our
view of him, and he will wind up influencing himself to act badly
rather than well.
What Dr. Maultsby is trying to accomplish with this client, consequently, is to persuade him to keep rating or measuring his traits
and performances but not to keep rating or measuring himself. He
has various inadequacies or incompetencies (as all humans, even
bright and educated ones, do); but he is not these failings.
to

anything in therapy."
would have said, "That is typical of

C^'^:

"I haven't learned

T^^:

All right,

all-or-none thinking.
fectly performed,

Do you
C^-^:

Yes.

T^^^:

And

see

what

I
I

To believe that because

haven't learned anything,

my
I

unrealistic

haven't peris

nonsense."

mean?

would be well to point that out to yourself, and not

it would have also been w^ell to point out to yourself
the great advantage to you it would be, were you to eliminate
it

only that,

your habit of doing all-or-none thinking.

It is

that ability to

go from
to 180 degrees in an instant that results in your
having widely fluctuating, instantaneous neurotic responses.
You understand what I mean?
C^":

Yes.

MAXIE

210

T^^:

You

C.

MAULTSBY,

JR., M.D.

and therefore your

untouched. But that's

didn't speak directly to those things,

habit of using

them remained

relatively

the habit you need to deal with directly in your

What you

did

was describe the

section.

result that will probably

come

from having successfully eliminated that habit; but you

left

the habit untouched.

C'-^:

You mean

T'^^*:

Right, the situation that resulted from those cues. But the

most

just deal with the situation in general?

efficient

thing would be to direct your homework to

the cues themselves. Once you have eliminated the cues, your
irrational responses will no longer be elicited.

You

will

then

respond only to cues for rational responses. Understand?

C21

Yes.

Do you want

the next one?

Yes.

go right on having these ridiculous reactions to the

C23

''I

T'^^:

All right.

just

simplest noises."
I

would have

said,

'That

is

not true. That situation

certainly would not qualify for a situation of 'the simplest

noise,'

whatever that is. I probably don't respond to the simmanner. I am just exaggerating and inap-

plest noises in that

propriately generalizing."

What was

the next one?

The therapist correctly points out here that the client is not merely
responding to the simplest noise, and is therefore unrealistically
exaggerating about his responses. More to the point, he is probably
doing this because he unrealistically and perfectionistically demands
that he not respond to any noise or that he respond perfectly well
to every noise. He is not really asking himself, therefore, whether
he is appropriately reacting to noises, but is looking for something
to condemn himself for and is finding it in his reaction to noise.
His general self-condemning philosophy, therefore, rather than his
and it is this that
encouraging him to exaggerate about his responses to noise.

specific reaction to noises, is the real issue here;

is

C'^-'*:

"It is like

T*'^^^:

And

being afraid of the dark, for heaven's sake!"

like being afraid of the dark, for heaven's sake.

it isn't

what I mean? After having directly responded in

a rational manner to each of those sentences, then what you
wrote would have made a logical closure to the homework;

You

see

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

211

and you would have handled both the cues as well as the responses to them. The w^hole process would have become potentially more effective. Then had you used your potentially very
valuable talent to

make

yourself feel as appropriately in re-

sponse to your thoughts as you feel in response to the reality,

then you would have recreated the whole situation in your

mind. That

is,

you would have done therapeutic imagery on

the event, and you would have mentally pictured yourself be-

same

situation with rational instead of your

and you would have made yourself have
the appropriate feelings for those rational responses. That
way, you would have most efficiently handled the event and
improved the probability of behaving in a more rational manner in the future under similar circumstances.
There's one more sentence. "This is never going to get any
better, and it is all because I am so stupid!"

having

in the

irrational responses,

C-":

T^^:

The

rational response there

gets anywhere. But

is:

''Right, it's this that

already have gotten better, and

never
intend

no such thing as a stupid human being,

only a fallible human being. Far better for me to stick to
the objective reality than engage in meaningless self-name-

to continue.

is

Understand?

calling."
C2^:

There

Yes.

What the therapist means by 'There is no such thing as a stupid

human being, only a fallible human being," is that a person is never
stupid just because some of his acts are. He is always fallible, and
therefore, no matter how basically intelligent he is, he can alw^ays
be expected to act stupidly at times. It is consequently far better
for the client to stick to the objective reality that his act was stupid
rather than to call himself names "a stupid person" for acting
in this

T'^^^:

manner.

you believe (1) that it is never going to get any better,

and (2) that it is your stupidity that is causing it, your depression becomes perfectly logical. It's that well-learned habit of
thinking using those irrational ideas that needs to be elim-

Also

if

inated.

For example,

"It's

never going to get any better;

MAXIE

212

am

always doing

it;

C.

MAULTSBY,

haven't learned anything;

JR., M.D.

am

so

and beliefs are the things that caused

Granted, you can bring the feeling under control

stupid." Those attitudes

your feeling.

after you create

it,

but that

is

RET

only the practical

solution,

not the elegant one. The elegant solution would be to eliminate

the cognitive ones for those irrational feelings.

Dr. Maultsby points out that when the client believes what he
does believe that things are not going to get any better and that
it is his own innate stupidity that is causing them to be as bad
as they are he will naturally, logically make himself depressed. He
can then, if he wishes, accept his depression and not give himself
too much of a hassle about having it (thereby making himself depressed about being depressed). But he can more elegantly get rid
of his two basic irrational ideas, and thus eliminate his depressed

feelings entirely.

TWELFTH SESSION
The therapist feels that the client has been doing considerably
better from the sixth to the twelfth sessions, because he keeps reporting that he is going through situations at school, at his teaching,
and in his personal life that are similar to those that he had catastrophized about before but that he is taking most of them in stride
and not upsetting himself about them. So the therapist decides to
take stock of the way things are going at the beginning of the
twelfth session, to see whether it is necessary for the client to keep
coming on a once-a-week basis.
Usually, in RET, the number of sessions is cut down because (1)
the client notes that he has relatively little to talk about any more,
or (2) the therapist notes that and recommends that the client come
in less often, and see how he can get along with fewer sessions.

Where,

originally, the client has a great deal to say,

and especially

to complain about, after a while he usually keeps reporting that

he is not upsetting himself any longer, even though unfortunate

events keep occurring in his life.
In the present case, the therapist and the client both agree, at
the end of the twelfth session, that the client is doing quite well
and that therefore it is advisable that he have only occasional subsequent sessions unless he suddenly starts getting seriously upset

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVEUE PHOBIC REACTIONS

is to immediately
resume regular therapy again. The

again, in which case he

call

and

first

to

213

for an

appointment

part of the twelfth

session follows.

is your twelfth relapse session, so let's take stock of w^here

you are now compared to when we started four months ago.

T^:

This

C-:

really feel very good.

feel very

untroubled by the kinds

me

For example, I'm involved in two situations right now to which in the
past I usually reacted very badly; but now% I don't think I'm
being self-defeating. I haven't had any irrational responses
of things that would have troubled

as far as
I

am

can see.

am

in the past.

handling things very

handling them to the extent that

am

well.

know

not having any

anxiety or depressions.
T'^:

What

C"*:

Well, the
I

are the situations?

situation

first

teaching. This

is

really something,

The kind of
The way it is

can't help being impressed with myself about.

teaching

am

doing

supposed to work
erating teacher
I,

is

as an intern,

is

is

the university department finds a coop-

in the

am

called intern teaching.

Five

Towns

School System, and then,

assigned to that teacher; and

am

in

her

classroom for a semester, every day, regular hours, and she

leads

me

gradually from no teaching of the class at

all

in

the beginning to 100 percent of teaching the class at the end.

She leads me in very gradually, you know, day by day and

week by week. She is always there with me showing me what
to do, telling
etc. It is

me what

she thought

did right or did wrong,

a good idea. Well, unfortunately or perhaps fortu-

am

they don't have enough staff to

go around. So they took me and another student teacher just
like myself and put us in a classroom with thirty second-graders, all alone, no cooperating teacher at all, and they
nately, this school

said,

"Go ahead do

in,

it." I

know

that in the past

would have

reacted to that in complete panic, especially looking at my

experience at the lab school, where there was just me and

one other
T'':

You mean

C^':

Yes.

kid,

this

was having a
past summer?

and

lot

of problems.

MAXIE

214

MAULTSBY,

C.

yes, I remember your coming in, and you were moaning

about nothing was right, and you were doing everything
wrong, etc. How did that turn out?

T":

Oh

C^:

split thing. Had some

and some very negative aspects
and not very much in the middle. I think it was because of
the very atypical way in which they structured the school.
I know I am never going to be faced in the public school system
in a situation where I work on a one-to-one basis with a kid.
I mean, I will always have at least thirty, probably more.

In the end

turned out to be a very

it

really positive aspects about

T^^:

Right.

C^^^:

And

I mean,
and when it

enjoy what

number

a job,

not enjoyable

is

only think these two things;

number two,

one; and

have to do to get through

was

now is really phenomeam doing when it is enjoyable;

the difference between then and

nal.

it is

it

it is

something I
problem

school. In the past the

always rated myself in relation to other people. You

know,

''I

should be as good a teacher as Mrs.

am

And

X" you know

any worse
and care,
and the public school system is paying me money, and I should
be doing well, and I'm not." Whereas now I realize the reality
"just because

than she

is

here.

because

of the situation

is

have

that

classroom situation.

this particular school;

way

these kids in

my

all,

and

it

trust

am

don't

and

a student teacher who is in a

know anything about the school,
don't know anything about their

of doing things, their books, etc. But

that's

am

all

just can't be doing

takes time. While

am

have to learn,

learning,

know

going to be as good a teacher as at least half the people

here; but that's unimportant.

T^^:

How would you

C^'-^r

T^'^:

Suppose you could stay right where you are now psycho-emo-

assess your

now and your emotional

think

am becoming

tionally, the rest of

management

situation

control, etc.

your

life.

Would

that be satisfactory to
life

in a personally

manner?

don't think

would stay here.

C^^:

T^'':

What do you mean?

C^^':

Well,

life

rational.

you? Would you be able to pursue your

satisfactory

of your

perceive that

can go farther with being rational than

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

215

merely handling what is happening now. There is a step

beyond handling what happens to me now.
You mean the step of causing what you want to happen?
Yes, the difference between the practical and the elegant
approach to

life. If I

as rationally as

continue to handle or react to situations

am

now,

several months' time,

see no reason why, in probably

wouldn't be ready to go on to the

next step, the elegant approach.

Q22

homework book today.

any problems.
You mean you didn't write any homeworks?
No, I haven't had any problems to write about since I was
here the last time I was here.
Look, you always have topics for homework. If your current
I

notice you didn't bring your

didn't have

day-to-day

life is satisfactory,

then do at least one homework

What

per week on past problems and conflicts.

to say

is,

you spent your whole

life

am

trying

developing the irrational

thought patterns that you were using before you came to

therapy, and

it is

unrealistic to expect that in the relatively

short period of time that you have been in therapy you have

eliminated

all

of them. Also,

don't expect you or anyone

But by
getting you to get in the habit of doing a homework or two
once a week, whether you are having personal problems or
not, you will be efficiently facilitating the generalizing process
to accomplish that in the time

of rational thinking.

You

will

you are

in therapy.

be forcing yourself to be con-

stantly checking your perceptions

and thoughts. You

will for-

ever be alert to irrational, operational assumptions not touched

on in therapy. Continued homework

is a check on whether
resuming your old ways of conceptualizing and formulating ideas, etc. Do you see what I mean?

or not you are gradually

Yes.
'J'25.

It is like

what every coach would

love to have

all

his athletes

doing, with reference to physical conditioning during the off

season. Naturally he doesn't expect

them

to

go out and do

four hours of calisthenics every day. But he also

if

knows that

they did thirty minutes a day, they would approach the

season with better physical condition, thereby decreasing the

probability for injury, etc. Understand?

MAXIE

216

C---''':

Yes.

T-^":

So,

the

it is

same kind

MAULTSBY,

C.

JR., M.D.

of thing here. ReaHstically perceiving

The more you practice them,

the more mileage you will get out of them per unit time spent
practicing, when you are trying to get on top of some pressing
and rationally thinking are

skills.

emotional problem.
C"^^:

Oh, yes,

T-'^:

Most of

my

as

see

what you mean.

clients use

when they have

homework more

like

an aspirin. Just

a headache they rush to the medicine cabi-

net and get an aspirin, they only think of

homework when

they have a problem. Actually, you get the most mileage out

homework by doing it when you are between problems.

That way, you decrease the probabiUty of having problems.

of

C'^":

Not only are you benefiting from doing the homework then,
you are free of

T'^^:

all

the psycho-emotional tension that accom-

homework on present problems.

panies

Right, and you are able to more calmly and leisurely explore

your thinking, examine and extend it. When you are dealing
with a problem, your primary concern is to get the most ratio-

and try to make yourself respond rationally

you are not caught up in emotional conflict,
you can just explore all of the various rational ways that you
can function. Do you see?
nal views of

But

to them.

C'^2:

Yes.

T'^'^:

Also,

it's

it

if

a good idea to do

homework on your

friends' prob-

lems. That gives you an opportunity to apply rational thinking

C"^"^:

to

someone

If

did

else's irrational views.

homework on someone

a therapist for

them what
of
T*^'':

me

them I mean,

else's

problems, do

in the sense that

think they should do? Or do

do

it

do

am

it

as

telling

in the sense

putting myself in their place?

You do

it

only as a hypothetical situation, trying to decide

what you or any

rational person

might rationally

do.

You do

not do as you did when you first stopped therapy, namely

go around therapizing your friends. You would write up your
understanding of the problem in terms like this. "If I assume
that what he said was true, then the rational point of view
would be this. But if he said that and really meant it, what

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERj: PHOBIC REACTIONS

are the rational implications?

assumptions."
C'^^':

In

Do you

see

What would

what

217

be his operational

mean?

Yes.

T'-^'^

the therapist points out that the client can keep working

homework even when things

are going well with him, and

that he'd better keep doing so in order to continue and to solidify
at doing

his gains. This is a rather different therapeutic concept

than the

common

insight-will-make-everything-better concept of the "psychodynamic" therapies or the now-that-you-can-trust-me-you-cango-on-trusting-other-people-too of the "relationship" therapies. In

RET, the goal

is

to give the client a

and the world, and

it is

new method of looking

at himself

assumed that once he learns this

method

to stop upsetting himself in the future about virtually

he can use it
anything that

may happen

to him. But it is also assumed that his

and learned habits of crooked thinking will
reassert themselves if he does not keep working quite hard

old biologically-based

tend to

at practicing the therapy-learned habits. Consequently,

it is

prac-

Maultsby points out to this client, that he

continue to work against his old habits and in favor of the new
one, especially by continuing to do homework assignments, even
when he is rarely bothered by the symptoms with which he was
afflicted when he returned to therapy.
Again, in T^^, the therapist notes that "realistically perceiving
and rationally thinking are skills" and that the more the client practices these skills, the more mileage he is likely to get out of them.
In this respect, as I have often pointed out to my own clients, RET
somewhat resembles the client's learning to play golf or chess, or
to use statistical methods. For although a good teacher (or even
a book) can help him learn these kinds of skills, and although at
a certain point in his life he may be very adept at using them,
if he doesn't keep practicing, practicing, and practicing at continuing
to employ them in the present and future, he soon becomes rusty
and is no longer particularly good at exercising them. He may later,
at almost any time, relearn these skills; but the relearning process,
tically necessary, as Dr.

like the original learning process, requires a

great deal of hardheaded, shoulder-to-the-wheel practice. Although RET is in many

ways a more complex skill than golf, chess, or statistics, and although
it is one that in many respects goes against the grain of the individual's hereditary predispositions and his prior environmental conditioning,

it

requires a similar

amount

of time and practice before

MAXIE

218

C.

MAULTSBY,

JR., M.D.

the individual becomes truly proficient and semi-automatically sustained in using it. In fact, it might be said, just because RET involves

considerable complexity, and just because it goes against important

hereditary-environmental grains, the severely and chronically disturbed individual (who^e name may be indeed legion!) probably
would better practice it enormously and for quite a period of time
during and after therapy before he can expect to make it his ''second
nature."

When

Dr. Maultsby, in his

T^*^

response, advises the client against

going around "therapizing your friends," he does not mean that

the client should never do this because in RET, the client is frequently encouraged to use some of the rational-emotive principles
with his friends, as well as on himself, in order to give himself
additional practice with them, and in order to help him answer difficult questions that others (and he himself) might raise against
some of the RET ideas. What Dr. Maultsby means here is that the
client shirked his responsibilities to himself, after his first series

of

RET

group sessions, when he only used

RET

principles with his

friends and not with himself. If he uses these principles (a) directly

with his friends when they bring up problems to him, (b) indirectly,
in the manner that Dr. Maultsby outlines in T^-^, and (c) directly
with his own problems in his homework analyses, then he will be
in several ways learning them quite thoroughly and helping himself
automatically to believe in and act on them.

T*^':

Okay, since you are feeling so good today,

the original
for

list

coming back

you have

is

am

still

that

want

to

go over

to therapy four

months

ago.

The

first

thing

fear of being struck in the head and sustaining

a concussion and losing your intelligence,

C*^^:

of problems that you wrote up as reasons

etc.

afraid of being struck on the head in the sense

don't

want

it

to

happen

me.

to

imagine

am more

sensitized to looking for things, you know, that could possibly

strike
T"^^:

me

Okay, but
Is it

on the head and result

is

this fear interfering

a problem for you

out of the house as

'40.

No,

it

right

it

another concussion.

with your ability to function?

it result in your not going

now? Does

formerly did?

hasn't been a problem.

now

in

am

in a pretty safe situation

that probably has something to do with

I'm not climbing mountains.

it. I

mean,

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

'41.

when you were

219

group therapy before, you were working in a factory, and you seemed to be handling that pretty
well. Still the job was dangerous enough for you to wear a
But,

in

hard hat.
QA2

There

no comparison to that situation at

is

all.

What do you mean, no comparison?

Even that was a great fear in comparison to the way I feel
now. Then, I used to walk down the street and worry about
a car jumping up on the curb and hitting me or the roof of
the house falling in on me. I don't do that anymore at all.

What about your

preoccupation with loss of intelligence and

thinking that you were stupid, etc? Putting the blame for

your personal problems and negative feelings on the accident?

'46.

That
day

not a problem at

is

all

^^47.

You mean you

^^49.

On

now.

noticed just the other

any more even

can't even get excited

if I try.

test yourself?

Yes.
the academic level, you said that

to realize that

your mind

will

mean by that?
I mean prior

do you

Well, by that

at one intellectual level,

ing at a lower
'p51.

to

was

it

difficult for

not do what you want.

my

and since

accident

my

you

What

was functioning

accident

am

function-

level.

Exactly at what level are you functioning at?

I

feel that

there

is

it

lower, but that

is

is

nothing you can do about

You say

the

way

it

is.

You know,

it.

that you feel that way, but

is

there any objective

reason for you to feel that way.

Yes,
after

think

my

My

so.

grade point average

What was your grade

Well, before

my

and

point average?

accident

went down
But what is it now?
accident

in school before

accident.

it

it

was

a three-point, and after

my

to about a two-point.

Now? I couldn't tell you right now because my grades right

now are either B's or incompletes. It has to be at least 3-point
to stay in

grad

school.

Well, you talk about the difference between B's and A's and

what

MAXIE

220

O''':

Not

T^^^:

Well,

C^''-^:

X63.
C^'*:

T65.

C^^^:

C.

MAULTSBY,

JR., M.D.

and a lot of B's.

would be hard to demonstrate any clear-cut
significant difference on that basis between your current level
of function and prior to the accident. You said you had trouble
getting along with your family. Mother-in-law insists on controlling your life.
She hasn't changed.
What are you doing about that?
That has changed. I don't upset myself about her at all anymore. She can try all she wants to, but I don't allow her to
manipulate my wife and myself.
What other evidence could you cite to indicate that you are
any better now than you were when you started coming to
therapy four months ago? In other words, why do you think
that your twelve RET sessions have been a benefit to you?
all
I

A's, a lot of A's

think

it

The most tangible thing

approach to

is

that

feel a lot better in

my

life.

don't see anything tangible about that.

T^^:

Q68.

Well, the school situation

am

in

comparing

now

that

to

doing essentially the same thing in lab school over the past

summer, and seeing the two

different

ways

different

ways?

in

which

handled

things.

what are the two

T^^:

All right,

C^":

Well, in lab school this

my

summer

got myself

all

uptight over

inadequacies as a teacher as a teacher interacting with

other teachers, as a teacher interacting with a kid, as a teacher

interacting with school materials, as a teacher thinking up
activities for the kids to do, things to say to

kinds of things,

them,

used to get very upset about you

losing sleep, deriding myself, things like that.

the fact that

to

am

make mistakes

T"^:

Now,

not a stupid teacher, but that

way

of those

knowI

am

for years, especially after just being

accept

going

dumped

had assumed it was

with a cooperating teacher leading and guiding

into a classroom, contrary to the

going to be,
me, etc.

all

Now, one of the things I think- you could get from continuing
to do homework is the realization that much of your vocabulary
is meaningless nonsense. You say, ''dumped into the
classroom." Earlier you said, ''thrown into the classroom." No-

A RELAPSED CLIENT WITH SEVERE PHOBIC REACTIONS

221

body dumped you into the classroom, nobody threw you in.
And for you it is important to correct those exaggerations,
because you have the capacity to make yourself feel appropriate to those words and concepts; and you in fact do it, and
that is where you get into trouble. You see, you need to develop
a lot of skill in communicating with yourself in the most unemotional, accurate terms possible. By doing it consistently,
then you will develop the habit of feeling appropriate to those
realistic perceptions of reality. You understand?
C"'^:

Yes.

The other

thing,

am

basing

my

feelings of greater

where they were before, is the

be drafted and I am handling that

rationality on, in relation to

fact that
in the

am

same

situation.

about to

rational

way

realize that

that

am

handling

my

teaching

with reference to the army, no matter

what they decide about taking me, I still have the choice to
go or not and to not upset myself about the consequences
either way.

In T''\ Dr. Maultsby shows the client that he is habituated to

forms of expression that in themselves help him to think crookedly.
This is true of most clients, and it is often an important part of
RET that the therapist indicates to them what their poor terminology is and how they can keep changing it. Thus, innumerable
people keep using terms such as ''They made me feel awful when
they did that thing to me"; and the therapist corrects, "You mean,
you made you feel awful when you perceived that thing they did
to you." Or the client says: "I should have acted differently"; and
the therapist corrects: 'Tou mean, it would have been better if you
acted differently; but there is really no reason why you should have
done what would have been much better." Or the client reports:
"I've got to stop eating so much!" and the therapist corrects: "You
mean, it would be highly desirable, for several reasons, if you stopped
eating so much; but as long as you insist that youVe got to, you'll
probably make yourself so guilty when you do overeat that you'll
create sufficient hypertension to help you continue compulsively

eating!"

This correction by the rational-emotive therapist of the client's

meaningless or misleading vocabulary may seem like semantic hairsplitting, but often it is very important. For as long as people continue to employ erroneous, emotionalized terminology, they will tend

MAXIE

222

C.

MAULTSBY,

JR., M.D.

keep propagandizing themselves with irrational ideas; and when

they speak more precisely and scientifically, they will tend to help
themselves think in a saner, less magical manner. As one of the
parting shots in this session, Dr. Maultsby reminds the client that
he can, with some work on his part, change his habitual way of
speaking and thereby help himself change some of his crooked thinkto

ing.

had a few sporadic sessions of RET after

and continued to do his
homework regularly. He is now out of therapy, appears to be keeping
and enhancing his gains, and it looks as if he will not need further
sessions (though a third round of RET sessions occasionally occurs
Dr. Maultsby's client

his twelfth session, continued to improve,

with some

difficult clients, since relapses

Assuming that

may

be multiple as well

improved ways
would appear that RET can
be successfully applied to relapsed clients, even when they have had
a recurrence of what would seem to be psychotic symptoms.
as singular).

this client retains his

of thinking, emoting, and behaving,

it

CHAPTER

Twenty-Three-Year-Old

Girl,

Guilty About

Not Following Her Parents' Rules

ALBERT

ELLIS, Ph.D.

This is a recording of the first session with Martha, an attractive

twenty-three-year-old girl who comes for help because she is quite
self-punishing, is both overly impulsive and compulsive, lies, is afraid
of males, has no goals in life, and is very guilty about her relations
with her father and mother because they demand a great many
things from her, including her adherence to a hard-shelled Baptist
religion in which she no longer believes. Dr. Ellis, as is typical of
rational-emotive psychotherapists, quickly zeroes in on her main
problems and directly tries to show her that she need not be guilty
about doing what she wants to do in life, even if her parents keep
upsetting themselves about her beliefs and actions.

FIRST SESSION
C^:

Well, for about a year and a half since

with me. Apparently well, this was told

rp4

graduated from

had the feeling that something was the matter

me by somebody,
and the more I think about it the more I think it's true: I
seem to have a tendency toward punishing myself. I'm very
accident-prone. I'm forever banging myself or falling down
stairs, or something like that. And my relationship with my
father is causing me a great deal of trouble. I've never been
able to figure out where is the responsibility and what my
relationship with my parents should be.
Do you live with them?
No, I don't. They live in Great Neck. I moved out in March.
What does your father do?
college, I've

^^2

223

ALBERT

224

C^^:

T^:

ELLIS, PH.D.

He is a newspaper editor.
And your mother is a housewife?

C^:

Yes.

T^:

Any

other children?

C^:

Yes,

have two younger brothers. One

sixteen.

is

Vm

is

twenty; the other

twenty-three. The sixteen-year-old has polio,

and the other one has an enlarged heart. My family was

always very close. We never had much money, but we always
had the feeling that love and security in life are what count.
And the first thing that disturbed me was, when I was about
sixteen years old, my father began to drink seriously. To me
he had been the infallible person. Anything he said was right.
And since I moved out and before I moved out, Fve wondered
where my responsibility to my family lies. Because if they
would ask

me

guilty about
^10.
C^^:

What

to do something, if

didn't do

it, I

would

feel

it.

sort of things did they ask

you to do?
Well, they didn't want me to move out; they felt that it just
wasn't right for an unmarried girl to move out. Also, I'm
very impulsive, I'm very compulsive; and
lie

than to

tell

the truth,

if

the truth

is

find

it

easier to

unpleasant.

think

men and afraid to find a good relaman I mean a relationship that would lead

I'm basically afraid of

tionship with a
to marriage.

My

parents have never approved of anyone

have gone out with. In thinking about

I,

subconsciously maybe,

they wouldn't approve

went out

of

my

wonder whether
way to find somebody
it,

of.

T^^:

Do you go with anyone now?

C^^:

Yes, two people.

T^^:

And

C^^:

Well, that

are you serious about either one?

I

don't know.

really don't.

One

is

sort of serious

about me, but he thinks there's something the matter with

me

have to straighten out. I have also at various times

been rather promiscuous, and I don't want to be that way.
that

G^'':

Have you enjoyed the sex?

Not particularly. I think in trying to analyze it myself and
find out why I was promiscuous, I think I was afraid not

T^^:

Afraid they wouldn't

T^^:

to be.
like you,

you mean?

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

Yes. This one fellow that I've been going
of
^20.

them said

that

What do you work

225

with in

fact,

both

don't have a good opinion of myself.

at?

Well, I'm a copywriter for an advertising agency.

don't

know

if this means anything, but when I was in college, I never

could make up my mind what to major in. I had four or five
majors. I was very impulsive about the choice of college.
rp22

What

rp24

What

did you finally pick?

went

to the University of Illinois.

did you finally major in?

majored in it was a double major: advertising and English.

Did you do all right in college?
Yes, I was a Phi Beta Kappa. I graduated with honors.
You had no difficulty even though you had trouble in making
up your mind you had no difficulty with the work itself?
I

Q27
'p28

^29.

No,
I

worked very hard.

My

family always emphasized that

couldn't do well in school, so

studied hard.

worked

at

it.

had to work hard. I always

mind to do anything, I really

Whenever I set my
I was always unsure

And

of myself with people.

Consequently, I've almost always gone out with more than

one person at the same time.

think that

it is,

possibly,

maybe

a fear of rejection by one. Also, something that bothers

me

more than anything is that I think that I have the ability

to write, and I wrote a lot when I was in college. Fiction,
that is. And I've done a little bit since. But I don't seem
to be able to discipline myself. Instead of spending

wisely, as far as writing

is

concerned,

I'll

my

time

let it go, let it go,

week which I know doesn't

why I do it, I don't know.

and then go out several nights a

help me.
rpSO

When

ask myself

Are you afraid the writing wouldn't be good enough?

have that basic

C31

'^32

That's right:

^33

Although

it is

fear.

a basic fear.

have pretty well convinced myself that

talent, I'm just afraid to apply myself.

My

have

mother always
encouraged me to write, and she always encouraged me to
keep on looking for something better in everything I do. And
from the time when I started to go out with boys, when I
was about thirteen or fourteen, she never wanted me to get
interested in one boy. There was always something better

ALBERT

226

somewhere

me

else.

Go out and look

for

it.

ELLIS, PH.D.

And if somebody didn't

go out and find somebody else. I

think that this has influenced the feeling that I've had that
I might be quite interested in one person, but I'm always

please

in all respects,

looking for someone

'J'34

Yes, I'm sure

But

don't

You seem

it

else.

probably has.

know what

I'm looking for.

to be looking for perfection, in a

sense which

you're not going to find. You're looking for security, certainty.

first

obtain a moderate degree of background information from

for the ordinary kind of diagnosis (since I can quickly

Martha not

see that she is seriously disturbed), but to find a symptom that I

can concretely use to show her what her basic philosophy or value
system is and how she can change it. I thus ask her, in T^^, "Are
you afraid the writing wouldn't be good enough?" because I assume,
on the basis of rational-emotive theory, that there are only a few
major reasons why she is not writing, and that this is probably one
of them. Once she admits she has a fear of failure in writing, I
emphasize that this is probably a general or basic fear so that she
will begin to see that her fear of failure is all-pervasive and explains
some of the other dysfunctional behavior she has been indicating.
As soon as I think I have a reasonably good chance to get in a
therapeutic word, I stop Martha, in T^^, and flatly tell her that I
think she's looking for perfection and certainty. I hope she will be
somewhat startled by this statement and will want to go into it
further: in which case I intend to show^ her that her writing fears
(and other symptoms) largely stem from her perfectionism. As it
happens, she does not appear ready yet to take up my hypothesis;
so I bide my time for a while, knowing that I will sooner or later
get back to forcing her to look at some of the philosophies behind
her disturbed behavior.

C*^^:

Well, the basic problem

think that

have

is

worried about

my

I seem
about I'm

that

to have lost sight of goals. I'm tied up in knots

family. I'm worried about money.

And

never seem to be able to relax.

^38.

Why
first

are you worried about your family. Let's go into that,

of

all.

What's to be concerned about? They have certain

don't want to adhere to.

demands on you which you

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS RULES

Q39

was brought up

to think that

mustn't be

227

selfish.

Oh, we'll have to knock that out of your head!

I

think that that

That's right.
^43.

is

one of the basic problems.

to be Florence Nightin-

You were brought up

galewhich is to be very disturbed!

I was brought up in a family of sort of would-be Florence

now that I analyze the whole pattern of my

family history. Maybe it was just a perversion of other desires.
Nightingales,

My

parents got married because

think that they loved each other.

was on the way.

really

think

don't know, but

they did. They were pretty happy with each other up till a
few years ago. When I was a little girl, I was my father's
pet. Nobody ever spanked me, hardly anybody said a cross
word to me. So I really don't think I was spoiled. My brother,
Joe, who is twenty, had an enlarged heart, from which he
has pretty well recovered as a result of an operation; and my
parents are now sending him to college. My sixteen-year-old
brother has had polio. When I was twelve, I developed an easily
dislocatable shoulder; and there's always been one kind of
ailment or another in

my family.

Always.

And they have never

been able to get out of debt. Never. They were hardly able
to help me through college. I incurred all kinds of debts myself
in college.

And

since then I've helped

my

family.

My

father

became really alcoholic sometime when I was away in college.

My mother developed a breast cancer last year, and she had
one breast removed. Nobody is healthy.
^^44.

How

is

your father doing now?

much better. He's been going to AA meetings,

and the doctor he has been seeing has been giving him tranquilizers and various other types of pills to keep him going.
He spends quite a bit of money every week on pills. And if
he misses a day of pills, he's absolutely unlivable. My mother
feels that I shouldn't have left home that my place is in Great
Neck with them. I don't feel that, but there are nagging
doubts, and there are nagging doubts about what I should

Well, he's doing

'p46.

Why
I

Why

are there doubts?

think

it's

a feeling

should you?

was brought up with that you always

have to give of yourself.

If

you think of yourself, you're wrong.

ALBERT

228

T"^^:

That's a

belief. It's

a feeling because you believe

ELLIS, PH.D.

it.

Now, why

do you have to keep believing that at your age? You believed

a lot of superstitions

have to retain them?

when you were younger. Why do you

We can see why your parents would

have to indoctrinate you with this kind of nonsense, because

that's their belief. But why do you still have to believe this
nonsense that one should not be self-interested; that one
should be devoted to others, self-sacrificial?

philosophy? All
it

C^^:

it's

gotten you, so

T'^^:

that's

all

ever will get you!

"No,

C''^:

needs that

And

And now I try to break away. For instance, they'll call up

and say, "Why don't you come Sunday? Why don't you come
Friday?" And if I say, "No, I'm busy," rather than saying,
I

can't come,

get terribly hurt, and

T^^:

Who

far, is guilt.

will

come when

it's

convenient," they

my

stomach gets all upset.

Because you tell yourself, "There I go again. I'm a louse for
not devoting myself to them!" As long as you tell yourself
that crap, then your stomach or some other part of you will
start jumping! But it's your philosophy, your belief, your sentence to yourself 'Tm no goddamned good! How could I do
that lousy, stinking thing?" That's what's causing your stomach to jump. Now that sentence is a false sentence. Why are
you no goddamned good because you prefer you to them? For
that's what it amounts to. Who said you're no damned goodJesus Christ? Moses? Who the hell said so? The answer is:
your parents said so. And you believe it because they said
so. But who the hell are they?
That's right. You're brought up to believe that everything
your parents say is right. And I haven't been able to loose
myself from this.

You haven't done it. You're able to, but you haven't. And you're
now saying, every time you call them, the same crap to yourself. And you've got to see you're saying this drivel! Every
time a human being gets upset except when she's in physical
pain she has always told herself some bullshit the second

before she gets upset. Normally, the bullshit takes the form,
is terrible!" in your case, "It's terrible that I don't want
go out there to see them!" Or people tell themselves, "I
shouldn't be doing this!" in your case, "I shouldn't be a selfish

"This
to

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

individual!"

Now, those terms "This

is

229

terrible!"

shouldn't be doing this!" are assumptions, premises.

and "I

You

can-

not sustain them scientifically. But you

without any evidence, mainly because your parents indoctribelieve they're true,

nated you to believe that they're true.

kind of assumption that people

goddamned good!"

make

It's

exactly the

same

that ''Negroes are no

you had been raised in the South, you

would have believed that. But is it true because you would
have been raised to believe it?

C^3:

No.

T-^^:

Then why

is it

If

true that one should not be selfish, or should

not stick up for oneself

parents or anybody else

and should not consider one's

second, third, fourth, and fifth?
first,

C-^^:.

That's absolutely right.

T^^:

Yes, but we've got to get you to believe it that's the point.

You
C^^:

T^^:

don't believe that.

want

to believe that.

know you want

and once

you do believe it.

But most of the time, very forcefully and strongly, you believe
the crap with which you were indoctrinated. Not only believe
it, but keep indoctrinating yourself with it. That's the real
perniciousness of

they taught

it

to;

it.

in a while

That's the reason

to you. It

it

persists not because

would just naturally die after a while.

But you keep saying it to yourself. It's these simple declarative

sentences that you tell yourself every time you make a telephone call to your parents. And unless we can get you to see
that you are saying them, and contradict and challenge them,
you'll go on saying them forever. Then you will keep getting
pernicious results: headaches, self-punishment, lying, and
whatever else you get. These results are the logical consequences of an irrational cause, a false premise. And it's this
premise that has to be questioned. If you do question it, you
can't possibly sustain

it.

As soon as Martha, in C^-^, says that she has nagging doubts about
staying at home with her parents, and that she's wrong if she thinks
of herself first, I jump in with both feet and try to show her that
this idea is only an opinion, that it cannot be empirically justified,
and that it will lead to poor results. I am herewith being classically

ALBERT

230

ELLIS, PH.D.

rational-emotive: not only explicating but attacking Martha's self-

defeating premises and values, and trying to actively teach her how
to attack them herself. I make a mistake, however, in T-^^, by saying
"We've got to get you to believe it." I could have better said: "It
would be much preferable if we get you to believe it."

get so

mad

C''^:

T^^:

Now, you

at myself for being so illogical.

see, there

saying that you are

shouldn't you be?

a nuisance. But

It's

who

a pain in the ass to be

says

it's

illogical; it's

wicked for you to be wrong?

what you're saying that's your parents' philosophy.

That's
C^^:

you go again! Because you are not only

but that you shouldn't be. Why

illogical,

Yes, and also there's the matter of religion.

was brought

up to be a strict, hard-shelled Baptist. And I can't quite take

it any more. This has been going on for (Pause) Well, the
first seeds of doubt were sown when I was in high school.
Nobody answered my questions. And I kept asking the minister, and he didn't answer my questions. And when I went
to college, I started reading. I tried very hard, the first two
years in college. I went to church all the time. If I had a
question. I'd ask the minister. But pretty soon I couldn't get
any answers. And now I really don't believe in the Baptist
Church.
T^^:
C^*^:

But are you guilty about not believing?

Not only am I guilty, but the worst part about it

All right.

can't quite tell

T^^:

Q65.

my

parents that

is

that

don't believe.

But why do you have to? What's the necessity? Because they're
probably not going to accept it.
Well, they didn't accept it. I was going to get married to
a Jewish fellow as soon as I graduated from college. And,
of course, the problem of religion came up then. And I didn't
stand up for what I believed. I don't know; rather than have
scenes, I took the coward's way out. And when I spend Saturdays and Sundays with them now which is rare I go to
church with them. And this is what I mean by lying, rather
than telling the truth.

T^^:

see.

You're probably going to extremes there going to

Why do you have to go to church?

church.

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

^67

231

always hate to create a scene.

sell your soul for a mess of porridge?

You mean you always

Yes,
'p7()

do.

don't see

Now

why you

it's all

should.

That leaves you with no integrity.

right to do whatever you

want about being

quiet,

loss of faith because

and could well upset themselves.
There's no use in throwing your irreligiosity in their faces.
But to let yourself be forced to go to church and thereby to
give up your integrity that's bullshit. You can even tell them,
if necessary, "I don't believe in that any more." And if there's
a scene, there's a scene. If they commit suicide, they commit
suicide! You can't really hurt them, except physically. You
can't hurt anybody else except with a baseball bat! You can

and not

telling

your parents about your

they're not going to approve

do things that they don't

like,

that they take too seriously,

and that they hurt themselves with. But you can't really hurt
them with words and ideas. That's nonsense. They taught you
to believe that nonsense: "You're hurting us, dear, if you don't
go along with what we think you ought to do!" That's drivel
of the worst sort! They're hurting themselves by fascistically
demanding that you do a certain thing, and then making
themselves upset when you don't do it. You're not doing the
hurting they are. If they get hurt because you tell them
you're no longer a Baptist, that's their doing. They're hurting

"How can
you do this to us?" But is that truel Are you doing anything
to them or are they doing it to themselves?
themselves; you're not hurting them. They'll say,

No, I'm not.

'p72.

But you

believe that you're hurting

Classically, again,

try to

them.

show Martha,

as

It's crap!

is

usually done in

is ethical to stick up for herself

and for her parents second. I also
emphasize that people, including her and her parents, are not hurt
by words, gestures, and attitudes (at point A) but by the nonsense
they tell themselves about these verbalizations and meanings (at
point B). I saw Martha a dozen years ago, when RET was a very
young system of therapy. Today, I might very well take the same

rational-emotive therapy that

first,

if

she chooses to do

tack, but probably be less

it

so,

long-winded about

it.

ALBERT

232
173.

And

my mother

also,

first

job

when

I should be at home.
paycheck every week.

thinks that

contributing quite a bit of

my

ELLIS, PH.D.

my

graduated.

My

I
I

was
got

father started to work

about the same time. He had been out of work. And I just
gave them everything but what I absolutely needed. The debts

had incurred when I was in college, I couldn't really

start to pay back. Since then Fve moved out, and I give them
a little; but I just can't give them much any more because

that

just simply can't.

sick twice this

fall.

and have to get a

financial strain.

make me

And
And

besides that, I've gotten sick.

full

upper plate put

have to get

No; you do!

C^^:

The thing

'77.

All

teeth pulled now,

in.

They make me feel I guess

make myself

father doesn't earn enough

Why

was

And
I

I'm under

can't say they

feel guilty.

T^^:

'76.

my

should you

make

guilty about

money

is

the fact that

my

to support them.

yourself guilty because he doesn't earn

enough money?

my

life,

ever since

can remember,

have.

And

don't

know where I got it from. This I would like to find out because
maybe I can get rid of it. I've always felt that I had to make
up for

my

the world.
'78.

You have

father, because of his lack of financial success in

I

it,

don't

know why

obviously, because

have the feeling.

somewhere along the

line

you

accepted their indoctrination with this kind of philoso-

make up for your family's deficiencies.

how they indoctrinated you; but you
from nowhere. Anyway, you let yourself be indoc-

phythat you have

It

to

doesn't matter exactly

didn't get

it

trinated with this notion.

They and

179.

society started

it for

Maybe it's a matter of

shame: you think, "If everybody knows my father is so incompetent, they'll look down on us; and that would be terrible!
So I have to make up for his lack in order to show people
that we have a perfectly fine family."
No, it isn't that. Someone was always sick. And if it wasn't
one person sick, it was two. And this went on all the time.
There was no time that I can remember when everybody was
well. They've had doctors all the time. And when my brother
Teddy was ill, my father spent a great deal of time going
society helps indoctrinate you, too.

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

from doctor

own
'80.

career,

to doctor,
I

233

and not concentrating on his on

his

guess.

That may have been because of his own mental disturbance.

He's probably always been mentally upset; alcoholics generally
are.

'81.

He's always been supporting more people than he can.

his father died,

my

part time then.

And then

his

mother and

my

mother.

all

his sister all

And

When

daddy was twelve, and he started working

through high school. He supported
the way up till the time he married

then his mother made him feel guilty about

getting married.
'p82.

Yes, that's right; and he's been pre-alcoholic, in a sense,

his life, because he
feel guilty.

C83:

all

agreed with his mother that he should

He now merely

is

more guilty than

ever,

and there-

fore has gone over the border into real alcoholism.

The constant pressures, the financial pressures, that were on

him
'84.

Which he

really

created or

at least

went out

of his

way

to

accept!
'85.

Yes. Because he's a great writer and could

that way.
doesn't,

He

could

sell

everything he writes.

Because he's so disturbed.

(^87

He

^^88

He's always been.

disturbed.

member
you

money
But why he

a lot of

don't know.

'p86

is

make

And probably, because you were the one

who was relatively healthy physically,
have to make up to the others for being this

of the family

felt,

''I

healthy!"
'89.

My mother always told me that. You see, I was always healthy

until I developed my easily dislocatable shoulder. And my
mother told me that my father almost came apart at the seams
when

got

afflicted, too.

Because

was always the one he

could look to for his security.

^^90.

Yes, and that's exactly the point now. There's your answer:

he looked to you for his security. That's where you

may have

got the concept that you had to be his security. There's their
indoctrination. It's his expectation that you will take care of

him and the family; and you've always

expectation.

tried to live

up to that

ALBERT

234

^91

always tried to

I've

You're

live

up to their expectations!

trying to live their

still

ELLIS, PH.D.

And

instead of living yours.

lives,

Q93

I'm realizing that now.

^^94

Well, I'm afraid that you have to be almost cruel and ruthless

with people
ploit

don't

want

to live their lives.

your parents because otherwise

like

you forever: and

you'll just

they'll ex-

be in the old morass. Because

they're going to remain in a morass for the rest of their lives.

C^"^:

doubt whether they

feel that

my

on

went

My

own.

will

ever change.

to college,

and

was doing

father always gave

me

it

five or

practically

ten dollars

whenever he could; and he paid the phone bills. They tried,

but they couldn't keep up with the expenses. I borrowed
money, and I got some scholarships, and I worked in my fresh-

man

year.

And

thought, ''Now that I'm in college, I'm not

a financial worry of theirs.

Now

everything will be

They'll be able to get on their feet.

to support."

But

it

T^^:

C^^:

C^^:

tried a little

things that
to

see
I

T^^^:

experiment with

made me break

for.

what

So
I

off

God which was

from

religion.

as far as

one of the

always used

wanted, because anything you want you

was always praying. Then one time I said, 'Til

pray for what

pray

right.

didn't happen.

You may never be in good financial circumstances,

I can see. Your father is too mentally disturbed.
They think everything will turn out well.
Yes, I'm sure. God is on their side!

T^^:

all

There are only four people

can do without praying." So

studied instead; and

did better!

Right! But people like your parents will never take that risk

upon God to help them.

were a God, he never would have cursed anybody
like he cursed my family.
Yes, if there were a God, he'd be awfully cruel to do this
to your family. Because you seem to have every ill in it: alcoholism, cancer, polio, an enlarged heart, a dislocatable
shoulder you name it! Every one of five people seems to be
sorely aflflicted. You could hardly have a worse setup.
of trying things without calling

C^^^:

'pio'i.

C^^^:

If there

said once at the dinner table,

hates us!" (Laughs)

wanted

"You know, somebody up there

come to you because Ronald

to

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

suggested

because you helped him get over his guilt about

it

his mother.

had the feeling that

should go somewhere to

what needed to be done. Because

waste any more of my life.
find out

'^104.

w^hat needs to be done

to do.

And

to be done.

235

is

simple but

relatively

that is you've alrea,dy done parts of

You have changed some

want

don't

it's

to

not easy

what needs

of your fundamental phil-

osophiesparticularly regarding religion which

is

big

change for a human being to make. But you haven't changed

enough of your philosophy; you still believe some basic superstitions. Most people whether Jew, Catholic, or Protestantbelieve these superstitions, and your parents believe
them even more than most people do, because they're more

The main superstitions are that we should devote

we must be loved,
accepted, and adored by others, especially by members of our
own family; and that we must do well, we must achieve
greatly, succeed, do right. And you firmly believe these major
disturbed.

ourselves to others before ourselves; that

superstitions. You'd better get rid of them!

C^o^:

How

'pioe.

gy

do

do that?

upsetmeaning guilty, depressed, anxious, or anything like that

every time you get some form of upset, some severe negative
seeing, first of

all,

feelings, right before

that every single time you get

you got the feeling, you told yourself

some superstitious creed some bullshit. That, for example,

you're no good because you aren't successful at something;
or that you're a louse because you are unpopular, or are selfish,

or are not as great as you should be. Then,

when you

see

that you have told yourself this kind of nonsense, you have

have to be successful? Why should I always have to be accepted and approved?

Why should I be utterly loved and adored? Who said so? Jesus

to ask yourself the question, ''Why should

Christ?

Who

the hell was he?" There

things should be

so;

and you are

is

no evidence that these

just parroting, on faith, this

nonsense, this crap that most people in your society believe.

And

it's

not only your parents

who taught

it

to you. It's also

those stories you read, the fairy tales you heard, the
shows you saw. They all include this hogwash!
all

TV

ALBERT

236
107.

ELLIS, PH.D.

know. But every time you try to overcome this, you're faced
with it somewhere else again. And I realize I've come to
realize you know, the thing that made me try to straighten
myself out was that I know I've got to learn to have confidence
in my own judgment.
I

'piOS

While you've really got confidence

^109

Yes, I'm very unconfident.

'piio

You have

to

be because

in this other crap!

you believe this

stuff.

continue actively teaching and depropagandizing Martha. Not

only do I deal with the irrational philosophies that she brings up,
but I prophylactically mention and attack others as well. I keep
trying to expose to her a few basic groundless ideas such as the
ideas that she must be loved and must perform well and to show
her that her symptoms, such as her self-sacrificing and her lack of
I

self-confidence, are the natural results of these silly ideas.

C^^^:

have tremendous self-doubts about every part of

my

exis-

tence.
T^^^:

much of a
you have so much of

Yes, you must, because you have so

belief that

this belief,
you must please others. If
you cannot have confidence in you. It's virtually impossible,
for how can you do two opposite things at once have confidence that you are a valuable person to yourself, no matter
what others think, and believe that you are not valuable to
you unless others approve of you? Confidence in yourself is
really a high-class term for not giving that much of a damn
what other people think of you. That's all it is. But you do

what other people think of you about

what your parents, especially, think. But also, probably, about
what many other people think. Because if you were a poor
daughter, what would the neighbors think? What would your
care terribly about

friends think? You're really petrified!

113.

It's

not the neighbors and friends. The thing that ties

up mostly
1114.

is

my

What would they

your own behalf? So what,

Yes, they're the primary ones.

if

me

parents.

you acted mainly

in

think of you
if

they think

you're a louse? Let's even suppose that they disinherit you,

excommunicate you from the family

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS* RULES

C^^^:

Then

should
T^^^:

should think, "If they care that

237

about me,

little

why

care about them?"

would just prove

that they were benighted. It just would follow from their
philosophy, which they're entitled to hold however miserable
it has made them. It would prove that they are fascistically
trying to force you to believe fhis philosophy; and because
they're failing, they excommunicate you. They're entitled to
do so, of course; but you're entitled to say, "Who needs them?"
Suppose, for example, you lived down south for awhile, that

That's right. That would be tough! But

lots of people didn't like

it

you because you weren't against

Negroes, and that they called you a nigger-lover. What are

you going to do get terribly upset about them?
C^^^:

No, that wouldn't bother me, because that never entered

life. I

mean

my

the fact that they hate Negroes. There are people

who hate Negroes who never entered my life. Because I went

to school with Negroes. Nobody ever told me that they were
bad. If

somebody ever

said,

"You're bad because you don't

hate Negroes," that wouldn't bother

me

because that's not

something
T^^^:

But why should it bother you if somebody says you're

bad because you don't put your parents' interests before your

All right.

own?
Q119.

T^^o.

You
it

guess because I've been indoctrinated with this idea.

believe

it.

It's

exactly like hard-shelled Baptism. In fact,

has some of the aspects of orthodox religion; for this kind

of religion says that the family

comes

first

and the individual

second; and that you're supposed to have twenty children and

not use birth control, and so on. That's what

religions, like Catholicism

many orthodox

and orthodox Judaism, teach. Ev-

erything for the church, the family and somewhere, away

underneath, the individual

C^^^:

'j'122.

C^^"^:
'pi24.

is

buried.

But the individual whatever contributions he has to make,

whatever his capabilities are can be lost that way; and I don't

want to be lost.
^Q^ Qj^iy ^^^ Y\e be, he must be
I don't want to be self-effacing!
Right!

Then why do you have

lost that

to be?

way.

Who

said you

must be?

ALBERT

238

The answer

is:

your parents.

Who

ELLIS, PH.D.

the hell are they? Poor,

sick, benighted individuals. They're not educated; they're not

sophisticated. They're probably bright enough, but they're dis-

turbed.

Your

father, as

seriously upset
recently, he

all

we

said before, has probably been

his life, in

an undramatic manner. More

became dramatically

ill.

But

it

doesn't

come on

(Snaps his fingers) You can see the signs clearly

over the years. And your mother has probably been fairly
disturbed, too, though probably not as much as he. But that's
like that.

the

way it is: you were raised in a pretty crazy family. Does

mean you have to kowtow to their beliefs for the rest

that

of your life?

away from

want

Q125.

]^Q. J

want

want

to

'pi26.

What's preventing you from being yourself? Nothing can prevent you right now, if you really want to be. You just would
do better, every time the feelings of being weak arise, to
trace

to get

it.

to be myself.

don't

be

them

your parents and of your

to the indoctrinations of

society and your acceptance of these indoctrinations.

And

them because you're suggesting to

hundred times a day now, those same creeds. You've

you'd better counter

yourself, a

taken them over, internalized them.

And

that's really fortu-

it's now become your belief you can get

Not immediately but you can. Just like you got

nate. Because

rid

of

rid

it.

of your religious views.

C^^^:

1128

And

want to find out I suppose it's all basically the

same thing why I have been promiscuous, why I lie
For

also

love.

You think

to get worth, value,

you're such a
is

worm

that the only

to be loved, approved, accepted.

way
And

you're promiscuous to gain love, because

it's an easy way: you

can gain acceptance easily that way. You lie because you're
ashamed. You feel that they wouldn't accept you if you told

the truth. These are very

common

results;

anybody who des-

perately needs to be loved as you think you do with your

crummy

philosophy, will be promiscuous, will

things which are

wants
129

to do

That's what

silly,

lie,

will

do other

rather than do the things she really

and rather than gain her own self-approval.

I

don't have;

don't have any.

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

130.

You never

tried to get

it!

You're working your butt

get other people's approval. Your parents'

ple's second. That's

And

why

you're doing no

239

first,

the promiscuity; that's

work whatever

off to

but other peo-

why

at getting your

the lying.

own

self-

way you get self-respect is by

damn what other people think. There

acceptance, because the only

not giving that much of a

is

no other way to get

means: to thine own

my

it;

self

that's'

what self-acceptance

really

be true!

I epitomize one of the main differences

and most other "dynamic" systems of psychological
treatment. Whereas a psychoanalytically-oriented therapist would
probably have tried to show Martha that her promiscuity and lying
stemmed from her early childhood experiences, I, as a ratio-

In

between

response, T^^^,

RET

nal-emotive therapist, believe nothing of the sort.

assume, instead,

was mainly caused by her

own innate tendencies toward crooked thinking which in turn led

that her childhood lying, for example,

her to react inefficiently to the noxious stimuli her parents may

have imposed on her. What is important, therefore, is her own reactivity and not her parents' actions. I also believe, on theoretical
grounds, that the reason for Martha's present promiscuity and lying
is probably her current need to be inordinately loved; and she freely
seems to admit (as she also previously did in C^^) that my educated
guess about this is true.
If I proved to be wrong in this guess, I would not be perturbed
but would look for another hypothesis for example, her promiscuity
might be a form of self-punishment, because she thought she was
unworthy on some other count. As a rational-emotive therapist, I
am willing to take a chance on being wrong with my first hypothesis
because, if I am right, I will usually save my client a good deal
of time. Moreover, by taking a wrong tack, I may well help myself
and the client get to the right tack. If, however, I try the psychoanalytic, history-taking path, in order to arrive at the "real" reasons
for my client's behavior (1) I may never find what these "real"
reasons are (for they may not exist, or years of probing may never
turn them up); (2) I may still come up with the wrong reasons; and
(3) I may sidetrack the client so seriously that she may never discover
what her basic disturbance-creating philosophy is and therefore
never do anything about changing it. For a variety of reasons, then,
I take a very direct approach with Martha.

ALBERT

240

C^^^:

You have

'pi32.

Well,

to develop a sort of

it isn't

hard

shell

ELLIS, PH.D.

towards other people?

you have

really a callous shell. It's really that

to develop your

own

goals and your

own

confidence so

much

that you do not allow the views and desires of others to im-

pinge that much on you. Actually,

you'll learn to

be kinder

and nicer to other people if you do this. We're not trying

to get you to be against others, to be hostile or resentful.
But you won't be Florence Nightingale, either! So you'd better
get, not insensitive, but invulnerable.

And

the less vulnerable

you get to what others think of you, actually the more sensitive, kindly, and loving you can often be. Because you haven't
been so loving, really, but largely maintaining a fagade with
your parents. Underneath, you've been resentful, unloving.
can be loving, though.

C^^^:

'j'134.

That's right. But you'd better be true to yourself

first;

and

through being true to yourself and not being anxious, depressed, and upset then you'll be able to care more for other
people.

Not

all

people,

and maybe not your parents. There's

no law that says you have to love your parents. They may
just not be your cup of tea. In fact, it looks like in some ways
they aren't. Tough! It would be nice if they were; it would
be lovely

if

they were people of your

own

kind,

you could

if

them and have good relationships. But that may never

You may well have to withdraw emotionally from
them, to some extent not from everybody, but probably from
them somewhat in order to be true to yourself. Because they

love

really be.

tend to be leeches,
Q135.

fascists,

emotional blackmailers.

Yes, that's the term: emotional blackmailers. This

has been evidenced

At every

all

through

my

life.

know;

this

Emotional blackmail!

I try to show Martha that she does not have to

withdrawing emotionally from her parents and doing
what she wants to do or thinking what she wants to think. I do

point,

feel guilty for

not try to get her to condemn her parents or to be hostile to them.

Quite the contrary! But I do consistently show her that they have
their own problems and that she'd better resist their emotional
blackmailing. As it turns out, she seems to have always known this;
but my actively bringing it to her attention will presumably help
her to act, now, on what she knows and feels. I am thereby helping

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

241

through frank and therapist-directed discussion, to get in touch

with her real feelings and to follow them in practice.
her,

^136.

Right.

And

accept

it

You had to
you were dependent.
have to accept it. You

you've been accepting this blackmail.

as a child you couldn't help

But there's no law that says you

it,

still

can see that they're blackmailing; calmly resist it, without

being resentful of them because they are, they are. It's too
bad, but
effect.

if

they are, they are. Then their blackmail won't take

And

everything.

they'll

probably foam at the mouth, have

Tough! so

they'll

that you can be taught to change.

We

time now. But the whole thing as

philosophy, which

phy.

phy

And

if

is

ago is your

really, of their philoso-

there ever was evidence of

it is:

how an

abject philoso-

they're thoroughly miserable.

you continue

you'll

be just as miserable

want

to learn to change your philosophy, this

if

in therapy: beat people's ideas over the

defeating themselves. That's

and

haven't got any more

said awhile

an internalizing,

affects you, there

fits,

foam. Well, there's no question

all

this

head

way.
is

And

If

what

you
do

until they stop

you're doing: defeating your-

self!

not only reemphasize, at the end of the session, that

it is

Martha's

views, taken over from her parents, that are bolixing her up, but
I keep utilizing material from her own life to consistently show
her what is going on in her head, philosophically, and what she'd
better do about changing her thinking. This twelve-year-old first
interview with Martha indicates how RET, right from the start,
encourages the therapist to talk much more about the client's value
system than about her symptoms and how it uses the information
she gives to highlight her own disturbance-creating ideas and to
attack them. I think that this session also shows that although I
do not hesitate to contradict Martha's assumptions at several points,
I am essentially supportive in that I keep showing her (1) that I
am on her side, (2) that T think I can help her, (3) that I am fairly
sure what the real sources of her disturbances are, and (4) that if
she works at seeing these sources and at doing something to undermine them, the chances are excellent that she will become much
less upsettable. My ''attack," therefore, is one that would ordinarily

ALBERT

242

ELLIS, PH.D.

be called "ego-bolstering." Or, in RET terminology, it is one that

is designed to help Martha fully accept rather than severely condemn
herself.

To

this end,

what Carl Rogers

consistently have

''unconditional positive regard" for Martha, for

(1961) calls

accept her in spite

and believe that she is capable of

overcoming her crooked thinking by living and working primarily
for herself. I also show that I am on Martha's side, not because
I personally find her attractive, bright, or competent, but because

of her difficulties and inanities,

human

feel that every

has the right to

live

primarily for herself

and to consider others, including her parents, second.

SECOND SESSION
This

is

a recording of the second session with Martha, which takes

place five days after the first session. It shows that she has already

made some

progress, has calmed

work

a better condition to

T^:
C^:

How

at

down

considerably, and

some of her

is

now

in

basic problems.

are things?

Things are okay. I went to visit my parents on Monday night.

And every time I was tempted to fall prey to their emotional
blackmail, I remembered what you said, and I was able to
fight

T^:

Fine!

C^:

My

it.

mother

is

having a rough time yet, because of having

her breast removed. She hardly says anything. She's really

in a

world of fog. She gets confused, and she uses the confusion

to give her a hold

on the family. She was putting on a martyr

act the other night;

but

said,

and usually

T^:

me as though I was a strange

And you didn't get upset by it?

C^:

No,

at

didn't get upset by

the right thing.

ment

would have given

And

in the past

it. I

creature!

had the feeling that I was doing

I think, the major accomplish-

that was,

few days.

T^:

Yes; well that was quite a good accomplishment.

C^:

Now

if

in to her,

"Quit being a martyr! Go to bed." She just looked

there are any bigger crises that will come,

know how

I'll

face them; but

it

looks like

can.

don't

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

T^:

Yes; and

243

you keep facing these smaller crises as they

if

arise and they tend to be continual there's no reason why

you shouldn't be able to face the bigger ones as well. Why
not?

guess

a case of getting into a good habit.

C^^:

T^^:

Yes, that's right: getting really to believe that no matter what

it's

your parents do, no matter how hurt they get, that's not your
basic problem. You're not deliberately doing
just standing

them

in;

you're

up for yourself.

occurs in RET, although this is only the second session,

already beginning to implement some of the major ideas
that w^ere discussed during the first session and is beginning to
change herself. I deliberately support her new notion that she can

As often

Martha

is

handle herself with her parents, and I keep reiterating that she
does not have to react upsettedly to their views and behavior by
getting upset. I thereby am approving her new patterns and rewarding or reinforcing her. But I am also repetitively teaching taking
every opportunity to reassert that she can think for herself and
does not have to react negatively because her parents or others view
her unfavorably.

C^^:

Well, something else has bothered me,

last

eighteen months. No,

have the feeling that

as

used to do.

don't

guess, during the

guess after

finished school.

can't express myself verbally as well

know why

this

is.

Maybe I'm

in

an

atmosphere where well, you can't say that they aren't talking
I really feel that I've lost something.
Do you mean when you're talking to people in business or
socially, you can't express yourself as well as you used to?
enough. But

T^^:

seem

C^^:

Yes,

T^'^:

Well, part of

can't

in yourself

it is

to find the right words.

probably true: because you've lost confidence

during some of this while.

And when you

lose

confidence in yourself, you will not be as good as you were

your performance. Then you look at your not being as good

as you were and you lose more confidence! That's the vicious
in

that occurs. Now, if you'd stop worrying about how good

you are at expressing yourself and just keep expressing yourself, most of your old ability would probably come back
circle

ALBERT

244

maybe

ELLIS, PH.D.

you might even get better than you were.

it less self-consciously; and now you've
self-conscious, more worried about how you're
expressing yourself. We all make mistakes and blunders in
expression. But you're taking yours too seriously. There's a
famous experiment which is done with stutterers. You can
all

of

it;

But you used

become more

to do

take a stutterer, a very bad stutterer, and put earphones on

him and play noise into the earphones so that he can't hear
himself talk. Then you can give him something to read, and
he often reads it without any stuttering!
C^^:

Oh!

T^'':

Because he can't worry; he can't know how badly or well he's

you take off the earphones again, he starts

stuttering right away, because he's then able to listen to his
voice; and he does a little stuttering for the first few words
and then says to himself, ''My Lord! This is terrible!" Then
he starts stuttering, stuttering, stuttering. Now, you're paying
reading. But

too

if

much attention

to

how you're expressing

much attention to

because you're paying too

yourself;
it,

and

you're not

expressing yourself well.

My

responses, T^^ and T^^, are really based on pure guesswork,

stemming from RET

theory. I know, from clinical experience and

from theoretical constructs inducted from this experience, why most
people fail to express themselves well and what they think about
themselves when they fail, so I take the chance of assuming that
Martha falls into the majority group and explain to her what is

probably occurring in her case. If it transpires that I am wrong

about her, I can always backtrack and look for a more realistic explanation. In the interest of economy, however, I hazard the guesses
I make her, and wait to see how she will react to these hypotheses.

18.

Something that
telling a

where

my
19.

lie,

did

wrong on Saturday I found myself

just a very, very

had decided to

realizing

tell

minor thing. It wasn't a case

lie; it just came out without

it.

Well, you're in the habit, probably.

What were

the circum-

stances?
'20.

Well,

had a date.

went up

to

Harlem.

We met

another

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

couple they were with us and then

with the other

girl.

And

my

245

date got up to dance

the other fellow didn't ask

me

to

dance. This happened a couple of times, and I got very annoyed. I felt that he didn't show any manners, and I was

very upset about

'p21.

Was

it.

he dancing with his

own

date?

No, he didn't dance; well, he danced with her a couple of times,

but I guess I felt neglected or something. And then on the

'p23.

way home the subject came up, and I said, "Oh, I told him
how rude he was." I told my date that I told the other fellow
how rude he was. And I hadn't said anything to him at all.
That's a very simple business to find out why you lied there.
What you were saying to yourself was, "I should have told
him

something like this" which, incidentally is wrong,

show you in a minute. But let's, anyway, say it. You
said to yourself, "I should have told him he was rude." And
then you were ashamed that you didn't. So you told your boyas

this or

I'll

friend that you did. Because

24.

if

he

knew

that you didn't, you

would have been ashamed. Isn't that true?

I would have said it. I wasn't sure what
he would have thought.
Probably, because

^^25

Your boyfriend?

Q26

Yes.

rp27

But you were concerned with what you would have thought.
You were sort of, in a sense, lying to yourself. Actually, I
don't see why you had to be so concerned. Let's suppose this
guy was rude. We don't know whether he actually was rude,
incidentally, because he may have been afraid to dance with
you he may be a poor dancer, may be worried. But let's suppose

it

was

just plain rudeness.

got the right to be rude?

be nice

if

they weren't; but

Why
if

Why

haven't

human beings

shouldn't they be? It would

they are,

why

should you upset

yourself?
C28:

You're right.

'p29.

So you

you were getting yourself upset about nothing.

yourself up into anger and saying, "I'll
fix this guy's wagon!" And then you didn't fix his wagon,
so you got angry at yourself for not fixing his wagon. So
see:

You were working

you

lied to

your date about

it.

That's

what usually happens

ALBERT

246
in these lies.

You do something,

And

of which you're ashamed.

ELLIS, PH.D.

or you don't do something,

then you try to make

it

up

Why

with a lie which won't do you any good whatsoever.

should you be ashamed? Let's suppose another thing. Let's

suppose the guy was deliberately, consciously rude to you, and

'30.

'p31

Q32
fpas

let's suppose you had taken him to task for it. Actually, you
would do better not to because it's his problem. But let's
suppose you did which would mean that you made a mistake.
So what's so horrible about you for making a mistake?
Well, this is all a part of something that's bothered me for
a long time. I'm always afraid of making a mistake.
Why? What's the horror?
I don't know.
You're saying that you're a bitch, you're a louse when you

make
C^^:

But

a mistake.

this is the

mistake,
T^^:

way

I've

always been. Every time

die a thousand deaths over

make

it.

You blame yourself. But why? What's the

to make you better next time? Is it going

horror? Is
to

going

it

make you make

fewer mistakes?
C36:

No.

T^^:

Then why blame yourself?

a mistake?

Q38.

T^^:

One

guess

it's

Who

Why

are you a louse for

one of those feelings

of those beliefs.

The

belief

is:

have.

feeling follows the belief.

made
how am
I

shouldn't

a mistake.
I

It's

And

make

am a louse!" And then

How shameful!" But the

"I

you get the feeling: "Oh, how awful!

be different;

making

said so?

again, you're saying,

mistakes!" Instead

undesirable to

make

making the mistakes

should

of: ''Oh, look:

mistakes.

going to stop making one next time?"

that line, you'd stop

''I

If

Now,

you'd use

after a while.

As is usual in RET, I deliberately look for something that Martha

says that will enable me to go far beyond the immediate events
of her life and her dysfunctional emotional reactions about these
events, and

soon find this thing. I show her that behind her lying
off a fellow who was rude to her was probably her
feeling of shame about not telling him he was rude. I could have
merely shown her that (1) she felt ashamed, and (2) there was no
I

about telling

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

247

good reason for her to feel this way, since, at worst, she made a
mistake in not speaking up, and she could have accepted herself
with this mistake. But I deliberately go far beyond this and show
her that she didn't have to take this person's rudeness seriously
in the first place as it probably had nothing intrinsically to do
with her but mainly indicated that he had his own problems. Her
upsetness, therefore, did not stem from point A, his rudeness, but
from point B, her insisting to herself that he shouldn't be rude.
I then go still further and show her that even if he were consciously
and deliberately rude to her and even if she did take him to task,
she would still be foolishly making herself angry about his having
a problem.

By going beyond
some

the immediate situation and letting Martha see

of the far-reaching consequences of her

own

thinking,

smoke

her out and get her to admit the main thing I am trying to get
at: that she's always afraid of making mistakes. I then have more
concrete information to show her, again, that it's not the mistakes
she makes at point A (the activating event) that upset her at point
C (the consequence). Rather, it's the nonsense she tells herself at
point B (her belief system): that she's a bitch, a louse for making
such mistakes.
All through the session, therefore, I very consciously use Martha's
material to reveal to her her basic irrational philosophies and how
she can attack and change them. I try to interrupt her own viciously
circular thinking: "I do poorly. Therefore, I'm a worm! therefore,
I can only keep doing poorly. Therefore, I have to keep condemning
myself for doing so badly." And I try to get her to replace it with
something like: "I do poorly. I then wrongly berate myself because
of my perfectionistic view about how well I should do. This selfberating helps me do much worse. Then I wrongly blame myself
for doing worse. Now I can look at what I'm mistakenly believing,
can accept myself with my fallibilities, and can gradually work at
correcting my errors and probably do better."

(340.

Well, this

is

the

way

it

was

in school, if

didn't do well in

one particular thing, or even on a particular test and

crises that

came up if

didn't do as well as

to do.
T^^:

Right.

C^^:

Yes.

You beat

yourself over the head.

little

had wanted

ALBERT

248

T"*^:

ELLIS, PH.D.

But why? What's the point? Are you supposed to be perfect?

Why

the hell shouldn't

human beings make

mistakes, be im-

perfect?
C'*^:

Maybe you always expect

T^^:

Yes. But

C^^:

No.

T^^:

Why

C^^:

But then I can't accept myself.

But you're saying. "It's shameful to make mistakes." Why
is it shameful? Why can't you go to somebody else when you
make a mistake and say, 'Tes, I made a mistake"? Why is

T^^:

do

yourself to be perfect.

that sanel

is

Why

it?

not give up that unrealistic expectation?

that so awful?
don't know.

C^:

T^^:

There is no good reason.

I wrote an article for a
accepted it, and they got
tique of it. He wrote his

You're just saying

Recently

another psychologist to write a

critique a fairly savage

he pointed out some things with which

my

it's so.

professional publication, and they

cri-

one and

disagree, so

said

But he pointed out some things which he was

right about; where I had overstated my case and made a mistake. So, I merely said about this in my rejoinder, "He's right;
I made a mistake here." Now, what's the horror? Why
so in

reply.

shouldn't

Who

make

the hell are

you the

you be a human being

C^^:

It

might

If

don't

make

do

it all

perfectly

T^^:

all

Who

a mistake?

go back

the hell

Virgin Mary? Then,

like the rest of us

to,

it.

shouldn't

and make mistakes?

as you said, the need for approval.

it.

That,

is

the erroneous belief; that

you never make mistakes everybody

of

why

Christ?

mistakes, then people will look up to me. If

Yes, that's part of

it is

am I Jesus

will

if

love you and that

necessary that they do. That's right. That's a big part

But

mistakes

true, incidentally? Suppose you never did make

would people love you? They'd sometimes hate your

is it

guts, wouldn't they?

C'''^:

And

yet, not all the time.

grant

you but sometimes

There are times this

I'll

thing that other people don't

'55.

Yes, but what about the times

is

rare,

stand up, take a stand on somelike.

But

this

is

when you know

so rare!

you're wrong?

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

249

times that's what we're talking about. You

wrong, you made a mistake, there's no question

Let's take those

know

you're

Why are you a louse at those times? Why is it shameadmit your mistake? Why can't you accept yourself as
a fallible human being which we all are?
about

it.

ful to

C^:

telling
I

T^^:

Maybe I have done this on the idea that if I keep

myself how perfect I am, I won't realize how imperfect

(Pause)

am.

Yes, but

why

shouldn't one accept the fact that one

is

imper-

What's shameful about being

one be a goddamned angel which

fect? That's the real question.

imperfect?

Why must

you're trying to be?

Q5S.

Probably there's no good reason.

T^^:

No. Then
It's

why

don't you look at thatl There's no good reason.

a definitional thing, saying 'To be good, to be perfect.

To be a worthwhile human being,

no damned good."

flaws, I'm

must be

And you

perfect. If

have

can't substantiate that

proposition. It's a senseless proposition; but you believe

The reason you

believe

the basic creed of your

believe

they

If

it.

knew

it is

your society beHeves

silly society.

it.

This

it.

is

Certainly, your parents

one-sixtieth of your errors and mis-

takesespecially your sex errors! they'd be horrified,

wouldn't they?
C0:

Yes.

T^h

You have

same

the

silly horror!

C2:

(Silence)

T^^:

The

devil

knows that

Because they think you ought

you think you ought to

to be a sexless angel,

be.

they're not very good judges. But you're

taking their idiotic judgments the same judgments that have

driven your father to drink and
miserable.

made your mother

They both have been miserable

all

your

life.

utterly

That's

what perfectionism leads to. A beautiful object lesson there!

Anybody who is perfectionistic tends to become disturbed,
unhappy ultimately often crazy. The gospel of perfection!
C^^:

That's what
like

T^^:

have to work on. Because

don't

want

to get

they are.

No, but you are partly like they are already we've got to

change

that. It isn't a

matter of getting you've already got!

ALBERT

250

Let's face

it.

You

don't do the

same kind

ELLIS, PH.D.

of behavior as they

you hate yourself when you don't. You make the mismake them. But then you say, "I'm no good!
could I have done this? This is terrible! I'm not Florence

do, but

takes; they don't

How

Nightingale.
blunders.

How

go to bed with guys.

awful!" That's the

And

do bad things.

make

same philosophy that they

an impossible philosophy, because we'd

really literally have to be angels to live up to it. There are
no angels! Not even your parents!

have, isn't

it?

it's

keep showing Martha that she

is

quite unrealistic and perfec-

tionistic and that as long as she continues to be, she will inevitably

get the poor results she is getting. I try to demonstrate that her
negative view of herself is merely the result of a definition; she
is "no good" because she defines herself, when she is imperfect, as
being no good.
I make something of a mistake, probably, when I tell Martha that
she believes she is worthless largely because her parents and her
society teach her to believe this. I fail to note as I noted in detail
in the final chapter of Reason and Emotion of Psychotherapy (Ellis,
1962), which was published a few years after this session with Martha
occurred that practically all humans seem to be born with a tendency to believe this sort of drivel; that they must be pretty perfect
and are no good if they are not; and that therefore their parents
and their society are easily able to convince them that this is "true."
Clinically, however, I felt when I talked to Martha that she was
already prejudiced against her parents' views and that she might
therefore see the perniciousness of her own ideas if I emphasized
how close to those of her parents they were. As a rational-emotive
therapist, I am a frank propagandist, since I deliberately use appeals
that I think will work with a given client. But I only propagandize
in accordance with what appears to be the empirical reality; that
people do define themselves as worthless slobs and that they then
do obtain behavioral results. I do not propagandize only to win
Martha's approval, but to dramatically (emotively) bring to her at-

tention the realities of

life.

Rational-emotive therapists are sometimes accused of foisting on

their clients their own prejudiced views of the world. Actually, they
try to base their views on reasonably objective considerations on
the facts of human existence and the usual nature of people. And
they teach individuals with disturbances to look at these facts and

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

251

and work with them. But they may teach

through dramatic or emotive methods, in order to put a point over
more effectively, taking into consideration that clients generally
hold their wrong-headed views in a highly emotionalized, not easily
uprootable manner.
to realistically accept

C^^:

(Pause)

guess that's this great fear of failure. That might

have been what was keeping

ing,

which

really

want

me from

concentrating on writ-

to do. I'm afraid that

might make

a mistake, you know.

T^^:

Two things happen if you

grim fear of failure. One is, as you just said,
you get anxious, unhappy, ashamed. Two, you don't live; you
don't do the things you want to do. Because if you did them,
you might make a mistake, an error, be a poor writer and
wouldn't that be awful, according to your definition? So you
Yes, that's the other grim tragedy.

have a

terrible,

just don't do things. That's your parents again.

How

they be happy, when they haven't done anything?

could

And you

have been following the same general pattern. You haven't

taken

it

to their

extremes as

no matter how you

T^^:

it.

yet, but it's the

And

in

same

bullshit,

your case you're afraid

you wrote, you'd commit yourself. And

if you committed yourself, how horrible that would be!
I've done a lot of thinking about it, since the last time I saw
you. And I've gone at the typewriter with sort of a fresh
burst of enthusiasm. I'm really anxious to get to it I want
to get home from work so I can. Nothing big has happened,
but I feel as though if I concentrate on it and keep feeling
this way, all I have to do is to keep working at it.
And one of two things will happen. Either you'll become a
good writer, with enough work and practice; or you'll prove
that you're not which would be a good thing, too. It would
be far better to prove you're not a good writer by working
at it than not to write. Because if you don't write, you may
go on for the rest of your life hating yourself; while if you
really work solidly day after day, and you just haven't got
it in this area, that's tough. So you won't be a writer you'll
be something else. It would be better to learn by that experito write; because if

C^^:

slice

ence.

ALBERT

252
170.

That's right.

Because I

don't

know I

ting at the typewriter and working at

ELLIS, PH.D.

felt so different, sitit,

that

got to be

it

enjoyable.
'p71.

It will!
it was painful before.
was painful because you were making it painful by saying,
"My God! Look what would happen if I failed! How awful!"
Well, anything would become painful if you kept saying that.
Another thing that bothers me, I guess it's the whole pattern

But
It

'74.

way everything has been in my life. It's a

of "Go ahead and do it now, and then something will

of behavior; the
sort

'p75.

'p77.

'p79.

come along and take care of it." Like my parents always said,
"We'll go ahead and do this, even though we don't have the
money for it, and it'll come from somewhere."
Right: "In God we trust!"
This is the way I went to college. But I made it.
That's right: you made it. It wasn't God; it was you.
And God had nothing to do with it! (Laughs)
That's right.

And

myself acting

find

to plan things.

seem

don't

to

still

And even

in this

if I

way, and not being able

little things, they

plan them,

come out anyway. But

I still

keep doing things

haphazardly, thinking, "Well, go ahead and do

it;

and

it will

come from somewhere."

Yes; but will

it?

No,

God

it

And

won't.

if

helps those

who

you plan and scheme and

help themselves.
plot,

then a

work out.
and plotted and worked. But you're believing

lot of

things

Because you planned and schemed

will ultimately

in

magic here,

aren't you?
'84.

'85.

And when

you can't do it, so

don't," I'm tempted to go ahead and do it anyway.
Yes, because you're telling yourself stronger and louder: "It'll
take care of itself. Fate will intervene in my behalf. The Lord
I

tell

myself, "Don't be

silly;

will provide!"

And

get

mad

at myself for doing

of getting

help?

mad

at

it

Why not say, "Let's stop the crap!" instead

yourself? How will getting mad at yourself

That's illegitimate!

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

causes more tension.

C^^:

It doesn't. It just

T^^:

That's exactly right.

cut out

all

do

doesn't do any good whatsoever. Let's

am

persist at

mean

cut out

all criti-

doing this wrongly, so how do

wrongly?" instead

it

a louse

It

the self-blame. That doesn't

cism. Say, "Yes,

253

am! I'm no good;

of:
I

''I

am

doing

it

not

wrongly; what

deserve to be punished!"

showing Martha that she can take chances, do things

not condemn herself. At every possible turn, I get

back to her underlying philosophies concerning (1) failing and defining herself as a worthless individual and (2) unrealistically relying
on the world or fate to take care of difficult situations. She consistently describes her feelings, but I bring her back to the ideas behind
them. Then she seems to accept my interpretations and to seriously
consider working against her disturbance-creating ideas. My persistence and determination may importantly induce her to tentatively
accept my explanations and to use them herself.
It may be noted, in this connection, that I am probably setting
a good unneurotic example for Martha and serving as a good model
for her. Modeling, as Bandura (1970) has shown, is an important
part of social learning and, hence, of psychotherapy. Whereas individuals with disturbances usually fail to persist and seem determined
to avoid anxiety-provoking situations, I keep displaying persistence
and nonavoidance with her thereby implying that she can behave
badly,

and

still

similarly.

Also, I keep reinforcing Martha's sane viewpoints (as when she

remarks, "God has nothing to do with it!") and contradicting her
insane views (as when she implies that she has to get mad at herself
when she acts foolishly). So, to some extent, I am helping "condition"
her to a different mode of thinking and reacting. Mostly, however,
I am not trying to induce her to adopt a more scientific approach
to life through simple "conditioning" or "suggestion."

'90.

When

am

particularly worried about anything,

I have very
have dreams that I can't relate what the
problem is, but I have them several times a week.
There's nothing unusual about that. They're probably anxiety
dreams. All the dreams say if you told me what they are,
I

strange dreams.

'91.

I could show you right away the same kind of things you're
saying to yourself during the day. They're doing it in a vague

ALBERT

254

and more abstract way. But

that's

all

ELLIS, PH.D.

they are, just repetitious

of the crap you're telling yourself during the day. In dreams,

our brain
therefore

and so

is
it

on.

not as efficient as

it is

when

we're awake; and

uses symbols, vague representations, indirectness,

But the dreams tell us the same crap we think

during the day.

C^^:

had a dream last week that disturbed me. I dreamed that

ran off somewhere with my boss, and his wife found us
in bed; and I was so upset over that I really was. Because
I never consciously thought of my boss in a sexual way.
That doesn't mean that that's what the dream represented,
that you thought of your boss in a sexual way. There's a more
obvious explanation of the dream. All the dream is really saying is: you did the wrong thing and got found out.
I never thought of that.
That's all it was saying, probably. And what's one of the
wrongest things you can do in our society? Have intercourse
with your boss and have his wife find out! That's all. It probably has little to do with sex at all; and you're probably not
going around unconsciously lusting after your boss.
No, I don't think I am.
No. But it would be the wrong move, if you did have sex
with him; it might, of course, jeopardize your job. So that's
all you're saying in your dream: if I do the wrong thing, I'm
I

T^^:

C^^:
C^^:

C^^:
T^^:

no goddamned good;

may

lose

my

job;

may

what you say

Why should you not translate it into dreams
the same crap!
penalized; and so on. That's

In

RET, dreams

all

get terribly

day, isn't

it?

at night? It's

are not overemphasized and are often used only

I say to Martha, they are hardly the royal

road to the unconscious (as Freud [1963] believed), but seem to be
rather distorted and muddled representations of the same kind of
thinking and feeling that the individual tends to do during his waking life. Since they are experienced in symbolic, vague, and ambiguous ways, and since they can easily be misinterpreted (according
to whatever biases the individual therapist happens to hold), the
rational-emotive practitioner would rather stick with the client's
conscious thoughts, feelings, and behaviors and with the unconscious

to a small extent; for, as

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

255

unaware) thoughts and feelings that can be deduced from them.

are rather redundant material, and can consume a great
deal of therapeutic time if they are taken too seriously. Moreover,
long-winded dream analysis can easily (and dramatically!) distract
the client from what he'd better do most of all: look at his philosophies of life and work hard at changing them. So when dreams
are used in RET, they are put in the framework of its general theory.
It is assumed that they encapsulate some idea either a rational
and hopeful idea (for example, that the individual can do better
and get better) or an irrational, catastrophizing, or depressing idea
(for example, in Martha's case, that she might do the wrong thing
with her boss, get penalized, and prove that she is "no damned
good"). This idea is sought out, explained by the therapist, and then
(or

Dreams

counterattacked.

That dream did worry me.

That's interesting.
QIOO.

You got worried about

got worried about the dream because

the

dream

thought this must

mean
'pioi.

that's right: that "I'm lusting after

terrible!" Well,

just suppose, for

C102.

No,

my

boss,

and

example-

didn't think, "Wouldn't that be terrible!"

"Well,

isn't that

suppose you were lusting after your boss. Let's

thought,

don't consciously."

'pi03

Yeah? So?

^104

And

'pios

So suppose you were? Let's suppose you were unconsciously

lusting after your boss; not consciously, but unconsciously.

C106.

(Pause)

'pi07.

then

thought.

"Maybe

am unconsciously."

What's the hassle?

I don't know.
Why would that be bad? You'd just be unconscious of some
of your lustful thoughts. Well, who isn't? What you should
be saying let's suppose the ^dream were indicating that you
were lusting after your boss, and you understood the dream
and found that out is "Well, isn't that interesting! I'm lusting
after

my

boss unconsciously. So do

me

something!" You see

you're always ready to beat yourself over the head. "Isn't

terrible!

What

a louse

it

am!" Millions of girls are unconsciously

lusting after their bosses. Well, what's

wrong with

that?

As

ALBERT

256

long as they're sane enough not to do

much about

get into trouble. But you were saying:

''Oh, no!

of
^108
'pi09

Clio
fpill

ELLIS, PH.D.

Isn't this awful! I'm

it.

Fm

it,

not to

unaware

doing something over which

have

no control!"
It sounds so

silly when you say it, but I guess that's it.

when you bring it out and look at it in the light.
So many of those things that bother people are

It is silly,

Yes, absolutely!

problem because I think that she

a terrible person for lusting after her boss, when she
really seems to think that she is doing something she can't control
I

at first misinterpret Martha's

thinks she

is

and that her lack of control is terrible. I then try to show her how
and why it is not horrible for her to have desires of which she is
unaware and cannot control.
The beauty of the rational-emotive approach is that no matter
what the client seems to be upset about, the therapist can quickly
demonstrate that there is no good reason for her upset. Thus, if
Martha's dream represents (1) her lusting after her boss, (2) her
being out of control, or (3) any other kind of mistake, RET theory
holds that she cannot be a rotter and that she therefore need not
be terribly anxious, guilty, angry, or depressed. She creates her disturbed feelings, not from the dream events, nor from her foolish
motives that may be revealed in these events, nor from the happenings in her real life, nor from anything except her own attitudes
about these events, motives, or happenings. And I, as her therapist,
am concerned much more with her attitudes than with the things
that are transpiring in her waking or sleeping life. So if RET is
consistently followed, any emotional problem may be tracked down
to its philosophic sources (or the ways in which the individual blames
herself, others, or the world); and these philosophies may then be
challenged, attacked, changed, and uprooted.

C^^^:

Another thing that bothers me: I mentioned before that I

was afraid of men, I think. But most of the real friends I
have made have been members of the opposite sex. I always
found it difficult to make friends with women. I've never
particularly liked very
felt

many

very comfortable with the

when

of them.

men

And

made

in

one way

I've

friends with. Yet,

go out with somebody or date somebody for a while.

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS RULES

257

become unsure of myself with that person and afraid.

do the wrong thing and that he won't like you?
Afraid
I

really

you'll

(;;ii4

Yes,
It's

make
ble!

guess

the

so.

same

crap, isn't it? "If

do the wrong thing,

if I

a mistake, he won't like me; and wouldn't that be terri-

I'll

be utterly bereft because

me!"

he'll reject

(Silence

Why

118.

'piis

would you be bereft? Let's suppose you did the wrong

thing, and he didn't like you. You make a few mistakes and
he says, "To hell with this, dear! I'm breaking this up now."
Why would that be terrible?
Well, I suppose if I really cared for the person, then I would
really think it's terrible. But I think I let myself get too emotionally tied up with the person I go out with so that I do
tend to emotionally rely on the person.
Emotionally dependent?

Q120

Yes.

^^121

Yes, that's right. But isn't dependency the same thing? You're
saying, "I can't stand on

my own

rely on this person." Isn't that

two feet, and

what it means?

need to

Q122.

Yes.

'pi23.

Why do you need to rely? Why can't you stand on your own
two feet? Even if you loved the person, why do you have to
be at his mercy the mercy of whether he would return your
love and would help you?
One shouldn't be. One should be able to this is something
my mother always encouraged me to be: be able to stand on
your own two feet. Because if you rely on a man too much,

124.

sooner or later he's going to run out on you.

'pi25.

Well, that's not entirely

Q126.

No,

it's

true-

not entirely true, but

can see

how

that thought has

some'J'127.

Q128

little more than that. She said "He's

going to run out on you and that would be dreadful!"
Well, then the ring would be on and

Yes, she really said a

^^129

And

Q130

Not that

'piai

Q132

that would be awful!

it would be, but that you would be

You'd be worthless.
No, not that you'd be worthless; but that you'd be stranded.

ALBERT

258
'pi33.

ELLIS, PH.D.

Desolate, deserted, incapable of taking care of yourself! All

right, is that truel

'134.

'135.

1136.

suppose if I were married and had children, it would be

more true than
Yes, but even that let's suppose the worst. Suppose you were
married and had two or three children, and your husband ran
out on you. It would certainly be a pain in the neck, but why
would you be desolate, destroyed?
The worst problem would be the financial problem how to
I

take care of them.

'137.

All right, but children don't starve to death these days.

So

you'd temporarily have to get the city to help you.

138.

When you

look at these things like that, they

make

so

much

sense!
T^^^:

That's right. You're catastrophizing

all

over the place, because

your mother has completely catastrophized. She's not going

to stop that.

As

said,

always try to look on the worst side

it. Suppose you were deserted, left penniless, and so on.

Hell! it certainly would be an awful nuisance, but look at

of

number of women who have been deserted in

ten years have they all dropped dead or starved?
the
^140

No.

^^141

Then what's the great

Q142
^^143

P144.

the past

hassle?

guess there isn't any.

But your mother thinks there is, and you unthinkingly accept
her thought because you don't question her catastrophizing.
I sure have to do a lot of revamping of my thinking.

show Martha that it would not be dreadful, as her mother

would be, if she were deserted by a man it would merely

try to

said

it

be highly inconvenient. And I deliberately try to get her to see

if the worst possible marital problem occurred, and she
and her three children were deserted by her husband, it would not
be (except by definition) catastrophic. This is one of the most frequently used techniques in RET: the therapist helps the client to
get down to the rock-bottom core of her catastrophizing and shows
her that no matter what happens, she would still not be utterly
that even

lost.

The rational-emotive

therapist, like

many

other kinds of thera-

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

pists, will
little

sometimes help

clients like

Martha see that there

259

is

very

probability that certain unfortunate events (such as loss of

economic deprivations) will occur. But, more effectively than virtually any other practitioner, he also is able to show
the client that even if such events do transpire and, of course, they
always could it still would not be "horrible" or "terrible."
Thus, I try to convince clients such- as Martha that nothing is
"awful." Because "awfulness," "horror," or "terribleness," when accurately defined, include not only the idea of great inconvenience
or disadvantage which certainly may exist but also the idea of
the illegitimacy or unnaturalness of the client's being disadvantaged
and her theologically-based belief that she ought not, must not be
inconvenienced. If I were seeing Martha today, I would more strongly emphasize this point to her. I would also try to show her that
as long as she believes that it is "awful" and "horrendous" to be
deserted by a man, she will tend (1) to obsessively think about this
"terrible" hazard, (2) wrongly convince herself that there is a high
love, accidents, or

probability (instead of a mere possibility) of its occurrence, and (3)

perhaps act in such a panicked manner with her most attractive
boyfriends that she will actually encourage them to find her anxiety
obnoxious and to desert her.
RET, then, usually gives the individual a deeply philosophic answer
to the problems that she is beset with throughout her life. Whereas
certain forms of behavior modification, such as Wolpe's (1958; Wolpe
and Lazarus, 1966) desensitization method, teach the client that she
need not be overconcerned about this or that, the rational-emotive
approach teaches her that she need not catastrophize about anything.
Even if real, overt hazards exist in her life (such as the possibility
of her dying of some disease), she can learn to convince herself that
(1) she probably won't suffer in the worst ways she can imagine,
(2) if she, by some outside chance, does suffer in this manner there
is no earthly (or godly) reason why she shouldn't, and (3) while she
is still alive, the chances are high that she can still enjoy herself
in spite of her real handicaps, even though she may well not be
as happy as she would be without them. RET promulgates a radically
different way of looking at troubles, problems, and dangers one
which was partly originated by Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius (Hadas,
1964), and other Stoic philosophers, but which does not posit any
fate or god to which the human being should blindly subject himself.
It encourages the individual to see potential and actual life difficulties for what they are problems to cope with, instead of "horrible"

threats to total existence and entire happiness.

ALBERT

260

T^^'^:

You have

ELLIS, PH.D.

revamping of your thinking. And you're a very bright girl you can do it. YouVe done
quite well in this one week, so far. All you have to do is continue that. If you can get through school and achieve Phi Beta
Kappa, you can certainly do some thinking for yourself even
though you weren't raised to. You were raised not to think
for yourself; but you've done some independent questioning
in regard to religion, and you've done it pretty much on your
own. Why can't you do it in regard to the rest of these crappy

That's right.

to do a lot of

philosophies?
(^146.

ru have

really

screw up other things for myself

this
T^^^:

Because talk about catastrophes I

Well,

to.

if I

could

just keep on going

way.

That's right; that's

what you were heading for screwing up

everything for yourself.

C^^^:

could have gone on saying,

this."

When

not every time, but

I

''I

always knew

it

would be

like

get very, very upset about something well,

just can't face

it,

if something seems like a tragedy, and

and I don't know what I'm going to do,

when I get all disturbed about money there are

times when I think, "Everything is disorganized. I need something to organize my life. Maybe I should go join a church."
Then I think, "What a fool I am!"
especially

Right.
^150

The only organization can come from within myself, not

Exactly.

^152

from

outside sources.

The church isn't going to help you; you have to think

for yourself. The only way you got disorganized was giving
up thinking for yourself, and taking over a great deal of your
parents' thinking. Not all of it, fortunately.
Now I see what a lot of these mistaken beliefs are!
Right.

C154
'pi55

Right.
I

'pi57

have to do something more about

that.

Exactly.

again attempt to reinforce Martha by pointing out better ways

and behaving to her, having her act on some of these
ways, then approving of her actions. However, I am trying not
I

of thinking

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

261

merely to reinforce her behavior, as would be the case in pure behavI am attempting to reinforce her independent
thinking. This may seem paradoxical. For reinforcement, as I have
previously noted in this book, usually helps the individual to be more
suggestible to go along with what others want her to do, in order
to win these others' approval. It therefore tends to result in less
independent thinking. I use some principles of reinforcement with
Martha, but at the same time I use them to help her become less
suggestible: first, to her parents and people like them, and finally
even to me. Unless she makes this final move and even comes to
think independently of me, she has merely exchanged one kind of
dependency for another, and is not too different from the way she
was before. So although I recognize the dangers (as well as the
advantages) of reinforcement, as a rational-emotive therapist I use
it to uproot basic suggestibility and thus eventually to help Martha
ior therapy. Instead,

become

less reinforceable, less conditionable,

and more

self-direct-

ing.

Qios.

today

\Yell,

guess you could say that

haven't come very far, so

reverted well,

far,

but today I've been dating two fellows at the moment.

One

of

to do

them

called

me

was going
had thought that he was going

today, and he said that he

something tonight. And I

me, though he hadn't said anything about

to see

had

this unreasonable

should

get annoyed?

my

will,

and

fit

It's

of annoyance.

Then

no problem of mine.

As though

to feel that way."

That's right, exactly. But at least you caught

Yes.

'pi61

Fine.
felt like a stupid jerk

when

realized

You're not a stupid jerk. You're a

errors.
all
164.

We

all

do.

Why

the time. We're

didn't

didn't

it.

said,

And

''Why

have no right

don't give in return.

Q160

expect everybody to bend to

'pi59

C162

couldn't have reverted back very

that didn't you?

what

was doing.

human being who makes

shouldn't you?

Nobody

is

intelligent

all fallible.

know what
know where

to say to

you when

came

in tonight.

to start.

You normally start the way you did, telling me the progress
you've made and what we're particularly interested in your
lack of progress, the times where the new thinking didn't

ALBERT

262

work, so
like a

we can go over

music lesson.

it,

and get

it

so

it

ELLIS, PH.D.

does work. Just

piano teacher comes and you play your

show what progress you've made; but you also show

where you fouled up, where you didn't do so well. And the
teacher corrects you; and you try again next week; and the
process is repeated until corrections aren't needed any more.
lessons,

You've learned a way of playing the piano. Here, you learn

a
166.

new

philosophy of

life,

Last night a fellow called

person, and he asked
I

know

me

new way

me

of thinking.

up. I'm not interested in this

out. I've

done

this several times.

should probably say to him, ''Don't

call

me," or "I'm

not interested," or
rpi67.

Qmn.
^169.

P17().

rpi71.

^173.

"I'm going steady with somebody."

I

don't do this.

Why

don't you? What are you telling yourself to stop yourself

from doing this?
I don't know. That I'd better hang on to this one, because
another one is going to leave sooner or later; and maybe this
one might be worthwhile.

But

is

No,

it is

that true?

If that

But

not true.

were

true, it

not true.

it's

would not be so crazy.

this is something I've always done.

And

'pi75.

But you're sort of saying, "Since I'm such a rotter, even though
I've got two guys at the moment, they're bound to find me
out and desert me. Then I'll have this guy. I couldn't possibly
get a better guy than this who is a pain in the ass. But
he's around and will have me." Isn't that what you're saying?

^176

Yes.

'pi77.

Bullshit, isn't it?

Yes.

what you've got to see. That's what we have

to teach you more and more to see that every time you foul
up, act idiotically, you're telling yourself some nonsensical
thing. It usually begins with the premise, "Since I am a slob"

All right, that's

think

did something else today that's based on that philoso-

phy. I'm not sure.

I

got on the bus this morning, and

didn't lock the door.

could

remember putting

thought

the key in

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS RULES

the lock, but

couldn't

remember turning

lunchtime to see

182.

And I worked
went home at

it.

myself up into such a tizzy over that that

iir

263

locked the door.

if I

There again,
possible

All right, but what's the hassle?

suppose
you hadn't locked it it's
But the reason I was so fussed about the door was that I
had left the window ajar previously, and the apartment was
robbed. But before that, and with some other thing, I'm always
running back to see whether I turned the lights out, turned
let's

the gas off1183.

Yes, but

when you

did you leave

left the

All right; so

door unlocked,

it

several times.

one of those times you were robbed for leaving

the window, not the door, open.

it

did happen. So

if

your apartment again?

And even let's suppose

QISS
'pisg

It's

sort of

by accident, but

you do leave the door unlocked, what are

the chances that somebody will

C186

how many times

unlocked?

probably neglected to lock

'pi85.

it

come around,

It's possible,

try

it,

and rob

but not highly probable.

good chance of this happening.

Let's suppose you left the door unlocked, and somebody did
come around and rob you. There's no use worrying about it.
The thing to do is calmly to go back at lunchtime and see.
But why give yourself such a rough time? Will that make
the chances of robbery any better or worse?
I was in a tizzy all morning over it.
You put yourself into a tizzy over it. Now, what's the hassle?
There was no reason to do it.
No, there was no reason to give yourself such a hard time.
You're saying to yourself, "I might have made a mistake, and
that would be awful!" That's what you're really saying. "I
there's a

deserve to suffer for that stupid mistake

The same

made

of not locking

Always blaming yourself always

trying to be perfect. Never allowed to act crazily or stupidly.
Because that's what you define as good: "I am a good girl.

the door."

am

crap!

worthwhile when

am perfect. When I make the slightest

blunder, I'm a louse; I'm no

190.

damned good!"

{Long pause) Yes. Maybe this comes from the things my

parents told me when I was a child: ''Be a good girl; do exactly
what we say; make us proud of you."

ALBERT

264
'pigi.

Right; that's where

it

started.

But

ELLIS, PH.D.

now comes from

it

the

fact that you're not challenging that old philosophy. You're

not around them that

much any more; but now

ing this drivel to yourself. That's

keep showing Martha

with

why

you're repeat-

continues!

it

material from her own life that

how things will turn out but is

she seems to keep worrying about

really consistently preoccupied with the irrational idea that she

would be a worthless person if she didn't make them turn out favorably. No matter what kind of incident she relates, I usually return
to the same basic theme: she may make some kind of error, and
she thinks she has to damn herself if she does. She seems to agree
with me almost every time, and even to bring out new material
soon after my interpretations, which indicates the same irrational
belief that she must be perfect and is a terrible girl if she is not.
Either I am accurately targeting Martha's real problem or else
I am brainwashing her. It is unlikely, from the material she brings
up, that the latter is true. But even if I were convincing her, somewhat falsely, that she is perfectionistic and that she'd better learn
to forgive herself for her errors, I am likely to help her considerably
with this idea. I might not be revealing and attacking her main
problem, if this occurred. But then her chief symptoms would tend
to remain, and I would be eventually forced to surrender my major
hypothesis about their causation and to look for other ideas that
were truly causing her upset.

C^^^:

(Long pause)

guess the main thing

fact that a lot of the thoughts

get a thought

and
T^^^:

I'd

like that, it's

better challenge

to

keep

have that

is,

mind the
whenever I

in

one of these invalid thoughts,

it.

That's right, to see that

the feeling the upset.

is

it

is

invalid. First

Then you know, on

you start with

theoretical grounds,

that you have an invalid thought, because you don't get nega-

having some silly thought. Then

you look for the thought which is pretty obvious most of
the time. You're invariably blaming yourself or saying that
something is horrible when it isn't. Then you say, "Why am
I a louse? Why is this horrible? Why would it be dreadful
if such-and-such a thing happened?" Challenge it; question
it; counter it. That's the process. And if you go through that
tive feelings without first

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

265

process, your thoughts can't persist. Because they're your irrational thoughts now. They're no longer

your parents' ideas.

You have internalized them.

C^^^:

(Long pause)

T^^*^:

Yes,

mense
this
C^^^:

has to be done.

it

done for your

sake.

And you

will

get im-

from doing it as you've already been deriving

good when you acted that way, didn't it?
have been back at the typewriter again, I've been

benefit

week.

Since

guess

has to be

it

It felt

thinking differently.

can see myself falling back, as

to be able to do, into a clear pattern of thought.

not just thinking in symbols and metaphors, but

used

mean, I'm

am

able to

describe things incisively, or at least have descriptive impressions of things.

T^^^:

go you're not
pouncing on yourself so much. You're giving yourself leeway
to think up these descriptions, which you could have done a
few weeks ago but you weren't doing because you were

Yes. That's because you're letting yourself

worried about other things about

well?"
(^198.

and

"Am

so on.

Yes, you're right. Not that I've done very

week, but

doing the writing

do feel

like

much

in this last

I'm loosening up more.

'199.

That's very good progress in one week's time! All you have

'200.

And another

thing I've done:

because

to

do

is

keep that
I

felt

had

up and
to.

go a
I

little

further.

haven't called up

my

father

And he hasn't called me so that means

something.
^201.

Fine!

When would you

Toward the

like to

make

the next appointment?

second session, Martha indicates that

Her improvements, of course,
may be concomitant with but not necessarily the result of the therapeutic points that I made during the first session and of her thinking
about and working on these points in between the two sessions.
But it does seem likely that, especially in relation to her handling
of her relations with her parents and her decreased guilt about these
relations, she is now considerably less upset than she was the previous week; and it also looks as though I had specifically helped
her in this respect.
Martha's apparent progress represents a common occurrence in

she

is

already

close of this

making good

progress.

ALBERT

266

RET. After one or two

ELLIS, PH.D.

active-directive sessions, clients frequently

report that something they thought they were never able to do

before is now in their repertoire. This does not mean that they are
truly "cured" of their emotional disturbances.

mean

to

that they are well on the

way

But

it

often does seem

to resolving at least

one

two major aspects of these disturbances.

Even if clients such as Martha are quickly helped, this hardly
means that all or most individuals who try rational-emotive en-

or

many of them, of course, are not.

assume, however, that a certain large minority of people can almost
immediately profit by the RET approach; and I assume that a given
individual with whom I am talking may be one of this minority.
If my assumption proves to be correct, fine! If it does not, I am
prepared, if necessary, to doggedly continue with the approach for
as many sessions as are desirable until the client finally begins
to see that she is causing her own upsets, that she can observe the
specific meanings and beliefs by which she causes them, that she
can vigorously and consistently dispute and challenge these beliefs,
and that she can thereby become considerably less disturbed.
counters are similarly relieved;
I

THIRD SESSION
Martha was uneventful. Because she was
with some expensive physical ailments and had financial
diflficulties, she decided to discontinue therapy for a time.

The

third session with

aflfiicted

FOURTH SESSION
This is a transcript of the recording of the fourth session with
Martha, which takes place nine months after the third session. She
had expected to come back to therapy sooner than she actually did,
but she was able to get along nicely and didn't feel impelled to
return until she had a specific problem to discuss. She now comes
with this problem her relations with men.

T^:

How

C'^:

Pretty well,

are things with you?

I

would

say. I've

you from some of the people

in particular.

He

sent to see you.

From

Matt,

thinks that you've helped him immensely.

T"^:

I'm glad that he thinks

C*:

And

been hearing good things about

see that you're

so.

making yourself comfortable,

as usual.

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

That's the

way

T-^:

Yes; that's the

C^:

T^:

Yes.

C^:

Well,

came

in

found you

way

you back
writing; and also

think

them

at

all.

know how

didn't

my

needed some help

to handle

two problems

my

parents.

fairly well.

get

parents now. Not because I'm giving

I've sort of established

being, apart from

other work.

January because

solved those

along very well with

in to

last time: shoes off, feet up.

usually am.

in

to

267

myself as a

them completely. And

was working,

as

also

told you, for

human

found some

an advertising

any interest for me at the time.

I could write on my own. But
afraid.
Then
an
I was
I got
idea for a novel, and a publisher
has taken an option on it, and I've been working on it ever
since. It will be published in the spring by the same publisher
who has been having such success recently with several young
agency. But
I

it

didn't have

w^as terribly bored,

and

felt

novelists.
see. That's fine!

T^:

C^^:

So that's all working out very well. But there's something

that is bothering me, that I thought you could help me with.
I've been thinking of getting married. I've been thinking of
marriage

in general, first of

not quite sure that

that
w^ay,

there

really

all.

But before that maybe I'm

know how

to love anybody.

Not

consider that there's a formula. But I've always, in a

been somewhat afraid of men. The other thing

is

is

that

someone -in particular who would like to marry me.

I'd better tell you how this all happened.

And maybe
T^i:

Sure.

C^^:

In trying to analyze it in trying to figure

it all

started to go back to

my

father.

My

it

out I guess

father was a nice

I was twelve; and he has

been getting worse since I last saw you. But I was absolutely
adoring to my father when I was a little girl. And then I
realized he was a human being, and he fell off the pedestal.
Now I don't know how much can be attributed to that, but
I don't think I ever trusted a man. I guess I was afraid that
if I really went for somebody and sort of devoted myself to

guy, but he has been alcoholic since

that person completely, and if that person thought he owned

me, sooner or later he would walk out on me. And this has

ALBERT

ELLIS, PH.D.

always terrified me, no matter what kind of associations

had.
'13.

would terrify you

All right; it

"They'll find out

how

you keep saying to yourself,

am and leave me!"

if

worthless

guess you're right.

C^^:

T^^:

And

fear and as you said yourself,

a fear then you can be pretty
sure that you'll love someone. I don't know whom you'll love
this person you're talking about, who wants to marry you,
or anybody else but I'm sure you have the capacity to love
if

you get

rid of that

a couple of minutes ago,

if

you're not absorbed

When
C^^:

I've

always have to keep one step ahead of them.

is

it is

"Oh,

in,

he going to find

it

my

What

God!

a louse

am!

out?" See?

Well, the fellow I've been going with

is

certainly a very nice

when I met him, I was terrified of him because

came over me, "Uh-oh! I'd better watch out for him!" I
put him immediately in this category "Beware of him!" Once
he was in this category "Beware of him!" it didn't matter
how I acted. This sort of released me from acting the way
person. But
it

ordinarily would think of acting.

have not really been

playing fairly and squarely with him. I've broken with him
a couple of times. But a couple of weeks ago

me

and he

told

but

better get some help and figure out

I'd

men

are so untrustworthy.

for a year

saw him again;

that he loved me, and he'd like to marry me,

and a

half. First

He had

just

why

think that

undergone therapy

he went to Dr.

then he went

me

with both of them. And

they both told him that I needed some help for myself before
I could consider any serious steps with any man. I don't know
to Dr.

whether he
ful

is

think he discussed

the right person. It sounds like the great beauti-

dream that

really would.

think

find

always had. But

don't think

it's

something missing

would

like to

be married

just because of loneliness.

there isn't someone to share

things with.
T^^:

\H.

There's no reason you shouldn't get married,

when you

over-

come this fear and when you really get sent by somebody.
As I said a few minutes ago, I'm sure you will. I still don't
know whether this particular guy will be it, but maybe he
is. How long have you known him?
Oh, I met him a year ago in May.

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS RULES

'pi9

And what

269

does he do?

He's head of the writing department in an agency.

'p21

How

Q22

He's thirty-three. I'm twenty-three.

old

is

he?

^^23

Has he been married before?

^24

No, he's never been married.

Up

he never wanted the responsibility of marriage.

was

so involved with himself that he never

himself to anyone.

He

time ago,

until a very short

I

think he

wanted

to give

concentrated on building a reputation

department head. And any woman that he

became involved with was only in his way. Consequently, he
dated all sorts of people that he would never consider marrying. This I got from what he has told me about the people
he has dated, and also from what he told me about his therapy.
for himself as a

'p25

take

it

that he

is

getting along

all

right with his job?

^26

Oh, yes; he's very successful.

rp27

And

C28:

Yes, quite a few.

rp29

And how do you get along with him when you're with him?
Up until recently, when I started to see him again, I was
still

just

he has friends?

were not on my guard with him, he would

walk out on me and even if I married him, he would

afraid that

if I

walk out on me.

And now

can see him again.

think

can

have are unfounded that there

is something within me that is keeping me from him, except
maybe as a dependency on him and also as a crutch. I also
see that he's really interested in me now. He cares for me,
and it's not just sex.
How are your sex relations with him?
realize that these fears that

C32

Oh, pretty good.

'pss

Do you enjoy them?

C34

Yes, though

Few

girls are

don't get an

orgasm

all

the time.

completely satisfied every time.

Is

he a good

lover?

Yes.
'J'37.

you have not felt too comfortable, and that

to do with your not being satisfied
you were more free and less fearful, you might

All right. Also,

may have had something

all

the time. If

more often be

satisfied.

ALBERT

270
Q3H.
T^^:

guess

so.

think

it's

quite possible,

if

you really

ELLIS, PH.D.

let yourself go.

But

back not in all ways,

your fears. From what you've

you're inhibited, you're holding yourself

but in

many ways because

said so far,

it

of

doesn't look like a bad situation.

'40.

Another thing that I seem to do: every time I get interested

in someone, I find myself looking at other men. And I think
that this might not be a real interest in other men. This might
be that I'm trying not to face the relationship and the fact
that I'm afraid of men.

HI.

Yes, that's possible. But

it's also possible that if you think

terms of marrying him and you still get interested in other men, you may not be so sure as yet, in terms
of your experience, that it should be the first one. And therefore you'd like to try others. Because you haven't had that
many involvements during your life, and therefore you might
want to have more of a fling more trials before you get
married. So some of what you feel may be normal, and some
of it may be your fear of getting involved. The basic problem

of one

man

in

still is getting you to be unfearful to realize yourself that

you don't have to be afraid of anything. And then I don't

see

why you

can't

make

it

with this

guy or some

I'm not sure which one. So far this fellow looks

only odd thing

is

all

other guy.
right.

The

that he's thirty-three years old and hasn't

had too much of a relationship with anyone yet. But now he's
had some help, and it looks like he's getting a lot healthier
than he was; so that's
'42.

fine.

would like to overcome this, because I don't like the

where I know I am afraid to put my faith in it with
him or anybody else. I don't want to be afraid of them that
they might leave me.

Well,

position

T^'^:

The basic thing they can

you said before, is reject you. Now, let's suppose that
they do. Let's suppose that you went with this guy, and you
really let yourself go with him, and he finally did reject you,
for whatever his reasons might be. How does that prove that
you're no good, that you're worthless which is your conclu-

That's right. For what can they do?

do, as

sion

how

does that prove

it?

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

C^^:

271

was the one who had

could always suppose that he

short-

comings, rather than me.

T^':

But

let's

suppose he doesn't have serious shortcomings, and

he rejects you.

How

does that

still

prove you're worthless?

and then he finds out certain

things about you and spurns you. Now what does that prove?
I don't know.
All it proves is that he doesn't like you for having these deficiencies. It proves, in other words assuming that he's objective about your deficiencies and is not inventing them that
you have certain defects. But how does having these defects
prove that you're worthless? Or that you're thoroughly inadequate, that you're no good?
Let's suppose he's a perfect doll,

C'*^:
T'*^:

C^8:

It doesn't.

T^^:

That's exactly right!

And

yet that's what you automatically

think every single time: that

it

mean something bad

does

about you. That's what your parents believe: that

deficient

if

you are

and somebody finds it out, that proves that you're

human. Isn't that their philosophy?

worthless, as a total
(]5o.

T^^:

guess

so.

They've told you that in so

many

words, so

many times as

you told me they did awhile ago. When they found out something about you that they didn't like such as your not running to their beck and callyou were not just a daughter

who

didn't like

them that much (which

is all

that

was

evident);

you were a louse no good! They called you every name

under the sun. They tried to make you guilty, you told me.
no,

Over the phone, they'd call you several times and so on. Isn't
that right? They assume that when someone is deficient in
their eyes, that person

is

a slob. That's their philosophy: that

unless you're an angel, you are no good.

52.

guess

just carried

it

with me.

let

myself carry

it

with

me.
'53.

it with you which is

normal enough. Most people do. But look at the results! If
it had good results, if it really made you happy, we might
say, ''Go carry it!" But the result is the normal result or the
abnormal result, in your case. You can't give to a man because
you're always worrying, "How worthless I am! And how soon

That's right. You've let yourself carry

ALBERT

272
will

he see

it?

And

before he sees

it,

ELLIS, PH.D.

maybe Vd

better do

something to get rid of him." Which is your logical conclusion

from an irrational premise, the premise being that if people
do find your deficiencies and therefore reject you, you're totally no good. Actually, there are two premises here. One, that
they'll find your deficiencies and therefore will reject you
which is quite an assumption! two, that if they do reject you,
you're no damned good. These are two completely irrational
premises. They're not supported by any evidence. But you
believe them and millions of people believe them, as you
do on blind faith. They are essentially the same premises
as that of original sin: that you were born in sin, and you're
going to be found out as a sinner, and all your sinning is
going to be revealed on Judgment Day; therefore, the only
thing you can do is keep atoning and repenting all your life,
or else keep hiding your sinfulness from other people even
if you can't hide it from God. Again, this is your parents'
philosophy.
C^^:

Yeah; mine

T^^:

Yeah the same

try to

is

just as foolish as theirs.

thing!

show Martha that

it is

not her boyfriend but her

own

attitudes about herself that are upsetting her, and that no matter

how defective she is in this or any

how badly her boyfriend (or anyone

other respect, and no matter

else) rejects her, she can still
fully accept herself and try to better her relationships. Although
I am therefore ruthless about insisting that she acknowledge her
I am (in a typical RET manner) highly supportive about
the possibility of her unconditionally accepting herself. Because of
its essential supportiveness, because the rational-emotive practi-

deficiencies,

tioner always accepts the client with her failings and tries to induce
her similarly to accept herself, RET can be exceptionally direct,
evocative, and defense-stripping. Ordinary experiential therapists
and encounter groups can afford to be ruthlessly revealing and confronting because they usually intersperse self-exposure with the
therapist's or the group's giving the individual pronounced love,
warmth, or approval (Burton, 1969). In RET, the therapist generally
does not give this kind of affection (since there is the always existing
danger that the client will, in getting it, wrongly think he is ''good"
because the therapist or group cares for him). Instead, the ratio-

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

273

nal-emotive therapist (and group) tries to give unconditional acceptance, that is, complete tolerance and lack of condemnation of the
client no matter what his faults are. I think an incisive reading
of these sessions with Martha will show that I am rarely loving
or

warm

to her but that

C^^:

How

T'^^:

The

do

full

acceptance of her.

this

is

wrong?

thing you'd better do before you convince yourself

wrong is to convince yourself that is, fully admit

yourself that you very strongly have this belief. You can't

that this
to

frequently show

go about convincing myself that

first

is

very well tackle a belief and change

that you have

it.

After seeing

it

this,

unless you fully admit

the second thing

is

to

degree which is enormous and intense to which you

have it. You can at first do this by inference by observing
your behavior and asking yourself what ideas lie behind it.
see the

For your behavior

itself is

not necessarily fearful.

It

the form of your feeling in a state of panic; or

may take
may be

it

defensive.

my

Q58.

Well,

T^^:

All right.

behavior

is

mostly defensive.

Then we have

to start with your defensive behavior.

and see by inference,

at first that it could only be this way if you were fearful.
For why would you be defensive if you were not, underneath,
also afraid of something? If we can get you to see how many
times a day you're unduly restricted, defensive and therefore
fearing until you see the real frequency and intensity of
your fears, then at least we get you to see what the cancer

Look

at

really

You can't really understand the cancer without seeing

it. Okay, we have the first step, then, which
make you see fully what the depths of your cancerous

it,

question

it,

challenge

it,

is.

the depths of
is

to

ideation are. Then, as you begin to see this, the second step
is

to get

you to calmly assess

fense and your fear behind

is

it.

it. The first cancer is your deThe second cancer is and this

why so many people are defensive if you admit

"My God! What a terribly fearful person I am!"

the reason

to yourself,

you will then tend to blame yourself for that. In other words,
you say on level number one, ''My heavens, I'm a wrongdoing
person, am therefore terribly worthless, and I'd better not
let anyone know this." So you become defensive because your

ALBERT

274
real philosophy

imperfect;
is

to

make

"What

is:

a worthless slob

have deficiencies;

am

ELLIS, PH.D.

because

have faults." So the

Vm

first level

yourself fearful because of your feelings of worth-

lessness the philosophy that

human beings who

are deficient

are no damned good. Then, as a derivative of that first level,

you come to the second level: "Because I'm deficient, because
I'm fearful, because I'm neurotic, I'm a louse and am worthless
for that reason. So I'd better deny that I'm really that fearful
(a) because people will find out about it and hate me and
(h) because I'll use my fear to prove to myself what a louse
I

am."
So

first

we have

fearful, defensive,

to get

and so

you to admit the fact that you're

on that you are

to get

who
we have

a perfectionist

tends to bring on feelings of worthlessness. Then

you to see that by admitting your fear and defensive-

ness you're not a louse for having these traits; and to get

you to see that simply because you have sl feeling you're worthless doesn't mean that you really are. So we have to get you
to (a) admit that you feel like a skunk; (b) objectively per-

ceiveand not blamefully perceive that you believe you're

one; and (c) (which is really just an extension of (b) start tackling your concept of being a skunk.

In other words, once you start admitting that you're fearful,

you have to concretely look for the simple exclamatory sentences by which you create your fears. Because people have
emotions and feelings, but these are the results of sentences,
phrases, meanings that they tell themselves. Human beings
communicate in some kind of language, and you have to find
the concrete language you're using to create, and to indoc-

and over with, your fears. You experience

these fears originally because you took over, largely from your
parents and from society, the belief that if you're deficient,
you're no good. And you keep saying this in some kind of
internalized language. Now you have to look at the concrete
language the actual words, phrases, and meanings that you
say to yourself and analyze your internalized communication,
trinate yourself over

parse

it

for its logic.

Because your sentences, your concepts are illogical. One of

your main beliefs, for example, is, "Because I am deficient.

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

am

Now

worthless."

the

first

275

part of this sentence

is

very

often true you are deficient in various ways. But does this

deficiency prove your worthies sue ss^l No! And if you feel
worthless which you do when you're so afraid and guilty in
connection with your parents or relating to a male then you
can dig out your own sentence, "Because I am deficient, I
am worthless," and challenge it, question it, look it in the

eye and then

Which

really

beat

it

down

logically.

means, instead of saying, ''My God! Every time

if my boyfriend found that
you can say to yourself, "All right.

I'm deficient I'm no good; and

out,

it

So I'm

would be

terrible!"

deficient.

What's the horror?

worthless?

What

difference does

human being blame

can't

How
really

does that prove I'm

make?

Why

should

herself for having deficiencies?

Why

is sometimes poshave the wrong color eyes and my

I'm certainly not going to change

either change the deficiency which

sibleor

live

with

it? If I

boyfriend doesn't like

that!"

it

And

it,

so on.

In other words, instead of unthinkingly accepting these

ir-

rational premises which your parents indoctrinated you with,

you have to look at them and think about

challenge them. Now if we can get you
to go through these processes of admitting your feelings
first facing your fears behind the defenses and acknowledging your feelings of worthlessness behind the fears and
get you to parse your self-condemning ideas, to see of what
they consist, to find your exact sentences and challenge their
meanings, you'll win out. For you are telling you these beliefs
right now; nobody else is telling you very much. Your parents
do but in a minor way. That's not major any vaore you are.
So if you challenge your beliefs, they must change those
irrational meanings, those self-sentences, they've got to go
away. Because you're the only one who is sustaining them.
Now that's the problem; and you've already done part of this.

and society

too,

them question and

As

a result of the

few sessions we've had three times,

isn't

it?

C^^:

Three times.

T^^:

Yes, three times. You've done this in one aspect of your

in

life,

regard to your parents. Because they were saying, "What

ALBERT

276

ELLIS, PH.D.

a worthless slob you are for not coming to see us," and you
were saying to yourself, ''Oh, yes, I am a worthless slob because
Fm not bowing low to my parents." You were then feeling
terrible, depressed; you were practically suicidal when I first
saw you some ten months ago in January of this year. Okay,
you Ve done it there, in that important area of your life. You Ve

challenged your

own

sentences.

You

said, "Yes,

am

not the

greatest daughter in the world to them; but that does not

prove

am

a worthless

slut. It just

proves that

greatest daughter in the world, and

they don't like

that's too

it,

damned

am

not the

don't have to be. If

bad."

And as a result of those few sessions and your own thinking,

you're not bothered much by your parents any more, and
much better which I told you they would. Bethem before for their nonsense.
Okay, now we'd better get you to broaden that. What you'd
better do now is no different it's more important, because
they're acting

cause you were rewarding

your parents eventually would die anyway. You'd get over

the problem with them then. But you're not going to die for
a long time; and you're going to live with this fear, these

defenses, these feelings of worthlessness, these constric-

tionsunless

we

can get you to do about them what

we got

you to do about your parents.

It's

little

more

difficult in this area,

because

we

don't

have them savagely beating you over the head which is easy
for you to see and fight against. We have you cruelly berating
yourself which is not easy to see. But we can see the unhappy
results:

your disturbed feelings.

And if we can

start with them,

get you to admit them, there's no reason you can't work this

problem through
little

in a similar

more time, but

it's

manner.

It'll

probably take a

the most valuable thing you have

to do.
C^^:

know, because

right now.

And

feel that this is a very

important thing

not just right now, but for the rest of

my

life.
'^63.

Right. Eventually you're going to marry, as you said; and even

if you never marry this fellow or you do
have to face this problem with yourself.

Q64.

Well, then, should

do

this:

you're

going to

every time during the day that

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

I

think that

Fm

watchful for

it?

277

being defensive about something, sort of be

Then analyze whatever

it

is

that

say to

myself?
T^:

Just ask yourself calmly, at

ing,

whether

it's

first,

when you get a queasy

a direct fear. Because you're

still

feel-

going to

when it's a defensewhen you're saying to yourself something like, "Oh,

what does it matter if so-and-so doesn't care for me? I can
get somebody else." Then ask yourself right away: "Now, look.
Did I really mean that? Or was I using that as a defense
against my fear of his leaving me?" Or when you find yourself
get those overt fears at times. But especially

men like the illustration you gave before

"Am I really that interested in the other man?"
may be they may be attractive. "Or, really, am

looking at other

ask yourself,

Because you
I

hiding

my

fear of losing so-and-so by this maneuver?"

own thoughts and actions, when

may be defensive. Now, sometimes

Just calmly question your

it

seems

likely that

they

you'll find that you're

everything you do

is

not being defensive. Don't think that

a defense! Because then you'll get mixed

There are some things we do for true, non-defensive moYou might even say to yourself, "That guy over there
is unusually attractive, and if I only knew him and he turned
out to be as bright and sane as he looks on the surface, maybe
he would be better for me than my boyfriend." Because your
boyfriend, I'm sure, has his flaws; and you might be able to
up.

tives.

find a better one.

You can

whether you're defensive by looking

at the evidence. For example, if you occasionally look at another fellow and say, "He seems to be pretty good; I wonder
what he's like," there's no reason to suspect that you are setting up defenses. But suppose every time you're out with your
boyfriend, you keep looking interestedly at practically every
other fellow you meet,. Then it looks suspicious; then it looks
like it isn't just a matter of your naturally comparing your
boyfriend to somebody who might be better. It's probably
more of your running away stuff.
But also, as I said before, all of your feelings won't be defenses. Sometimes you're really going to feel the emotion
itself, without the defenses such as, emotions of depression.
usually

tell

ALBERT

278

anger, anxiety, guilt, and overexcitement.

Any

ELLIS, PH.D.

negative feel-

whatever it is, we're interested in. Every time, I contend,

when you get a negative feeling, you get it because the split
second before you feel it you have told yourself something.
And this something, in general, is that something is or may
ing,

be terrible. That's
If

why

you're getting the negative response.

you say that something

is

or

may

be good, you're going

to get the feeling of joy, elation, love, or

something

like that.

But every time you get depression, anxiety, or guilt, you think,
"Something is terrible!" And very often that something is
you. "If I do this, it should be perfect!" At other times, when
you get angry, you tell yourself, " That son-of-a-bitch is doing
this, and that is terrible!"
So we want you to look at these feelings and that doesn't
necessarily mean the second you experience them. Because
it might be ten minutes later that you get a chance to track
them back. You might be angry for ten minutes, without even
realizing it and without doing anything about it. But you can
then, after the fact, say: "Now, look. I was just angry (or
anxious, or guilty).

And you
self.

say to

me to create this feehng?"

you said to yourand show yourself

start looking for these things that

Then you can

how

What did I

find them, parse them,

you can't find them, that's

what I'm here for. Any time you get a feeling that you can't
track down a negative feeling make a note of it and bring
it in to me. I'll ask you about the circumstances in which it
occurred, and the chances are that I'll be able to track it down

just

irrational they are. If

very quickly to the ideas you've been telling yourself because

I've
it

had so much experience

in

doing

this.

And, incidentally,

can't be one of ten thousand things you've told yourself;

for

all

these ten thousand are really derived from a few basic

things which are fairly easy to find.

may

be particularly noted that, from C*^^ to T^'', I do by far

the most talking and act very much like a teacher who is lecturing
to one individual student. After Martha asks how she is to convince
herself that her own philosophy of life produces ineflficient results,
I outline, in detail, the process she'd better take in this respect.
It

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

279

When she

notes that a great deal of her behavior is defensive, instead

of doing what many therapists (especially those of psychoanalytic
or experiential persuasion) would do and showing her that these
defenses will have to be emotively unblocked in the course of many
sessions, I quickly explain to her what defenses are, how they arise,

and how she can work against them. I thereby give her a kind of
homework assignment: to question her-thoughts and actions, in her
and to teach herself to distinguish between defensive and
non-defensive behaviors.
I explain defense-expunging to Martha because I feel that even
if she comes for many therapeutic sessions and continually is shown
how defensive she is, she will hardly surrender her defensiveness
until she regularly and vigorously attacks it herself. Frequently, this
material which I teach Martha would be done in question-and-answer
form, as in a Socratic dialogue (Diaz-Guerrera, 1959). Thus I might
ask, "Let's suppose that you are out with your boyfriend and that
you compare his traits to others, find them usually to be superior,
but conclude that you'd better give him up for one of these others.
What would that probably indicate?" If Martha did not see that
this kind of behavior might well indicate defensiveness, I would
keep questioning her and challenging her answers, until she did
begin to see this clearly.
Because, however, Martha is quite bright, because she easily seems
to understand the points I make and quickly starts acting on some
of them, I choose to do more lecturing and less questioning. I assume
that I shall thereby save her time and give her more material to
work with in between sessions. Today, as was not true a dozen years
ago, I also often employ tape recordings with clients and give them
a recorded tape or cassette of each session to take home with them
to replay several times. In this type of session, I frequently do a
considerable amount of lecturing, knowing that the client will get
the repetitive advantages of my explanations as he keeps rehearing
the tape.
real life,

I prophylactically warn Martha that she'd better not assume that

everything she does is pathological and look for hidden meanings
all the time. For she may become attracted to some other fellow
because he is attractive and not because she is afraid to become
too involved with her present boyfriend. In this regard, the rational-emotive therapist tries to avoid the common psychotherapeutic
error of encouraging the client to suspect virtually all her motives
and actions, and thereby to become obsessed with analyzing herself
about all kinds of unimportant events and feelings.

ALBERT

280
'66.

Well, this

part of the major problem that

is

before: that in the other aspects

seemed

to

have no goal that

my

also that in

you say that

it

was

T^^:

That's right.

C^^:

And

T^^:

That's right; that

this is

my

parents

was and how

brought up

was doing poorly

I'd lost sight of

relationship with

myself how incompetent

ELLIS, PH.D.

a low opinion that

my
I

terrible

goal.

was
I

in,

And

telling

was; and

had of myself.

an extension of that.
is

Your problems with your

the major thing.

parents were a big aspect, but the less crippling aspect of

your general problems. Because you

life you don't
C^^:

Well, this has bothered

T^^:

Yes, practically
basic problem

all

with yourself

live

your

me

for

life.

many

In fact,

your

years.
I

have a theory that the

biological as well as social: that

is

all

with your parents.

live

we

tend, as

blame ourselves and others, but particuand that unless something happens to jolt us
self-condemning, we keep doing it forever. And
work, forcefully and vigorously, to jolt ourselves

children, normally to
larly ourselves;

out of this

we have

to

out of doing

this.

Because, according to the principles of iner-

human beings

keep doing a thing largely because

they've previously done it. And this is the natural tendency
of practically all people, as far as I know: to convince themtia,

will

selves that "because

C^^:

am

imperfect, I'm worthless!"

But actually, your parents bring you up that way. Because

you are naughty, you stand in a corner; you don't get your
supper; you get spanked; or someone says to you, "That wasn't
very nice; that wasn't very good!"

T^*^:

That's right.

They don't only spank you that wouldn't be

would just penalize you but they
no good!" And the attitude they take in doing
an angry attitude; and the whole implication

so bad, because then they

also say, "You're

the spanking
of the anger
to train you,

is
is

that you're worthless. People do this in order

when

you're a child; and

it's

a very effective

But look at the enormous harm it does!

main reasons we would want you to
undo your self-blaming tendencies is that if you do get married and have children, you will tend to do the same kind
of thing to them that was done to you unless you see very

method of

training.

Incidentally, one of the

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

clearly

what was done

to

you and what you're doing now to

continue

it.

C^^:

And

Fm

T^"'':

Yes, that's right. Just look

also,

281

absolutely terrified of being somebody's mother.

C^^:

how incompetent you might be,

and how you might screw it up! And wouldn't that be awful!
You know, I've been asking myself that a hundred thousand

T'''':

All right; but those are the times

times.

brought

my

child

to clip. Let's just

C^^:

are you ending the sentence?

Wouldn't that be awful! Wouldn't

T''^:

That's right.

Now

we have

was somebody's mother and

That's
what you're saying. How
badly."
up

take that sentence, "Suppose

is

be terrible!

that a logical conclusion to

the observed facts? Even

let's

make from

suppose the facts were true-

that you did bring up a child badly. Let's suppose that.

C^^:

No,

it

wouldn't. Because I'd be defining that's

be defining worthless in terms of whatever

ever
T^^:

Would

follow that you'd be a worthless slob?

it still

it is

that

do badly

what

it is I

it

lack,

is I'd
what-

in.

making is: my deficiency

my worthlessness. That's exactly the equation and it's
definition. Now is it a true definition?

That's right. The equation you'd be

equals

a
C2:

No.

T^^:

It's a true or an accurate definition if you make it true if

you insist that it's true.
But it's not necessarily a correct one.
That's right. And what happens when you make that defini-

C^^:

T^^:

tion?
C^^:

Then you

feel worthless, because

you define yourself as worth-

less.

T^^:

Yes, pragmatically, you defeat yourself. If

it

were a definition

that led to good results, that might be fine. But does

it

lead

to that?
C^^:

No. Because you tend to look at everything negatively, rather

than I

hate to say positively, because

thinking," and that's not

T^^:

Yes,

let's

say

it

than objectively.
C^":

Yes, objectively.

it

sounds

like ''positive

it.

makes you

look at things negatively rather

ALBERT

282

ELLIS, PH.D.

From responses
instead of

my

T^^ to T^^, I resort to a questioning dialogue,

previous type of straight lecturing and explaining.

keep asking Martha various questions about what she's telling

herself, what results she is thereby getting, and whether the things
she is saying to herself and the definitions she is setting up about
her behavior are really accurate. She shows, by her answers, that
she is following what I have previously explained and that she can
probably use this material in her future living.
I

Unless the rational-emotive therapist gets around, at some point

and receiving
some feedback from her, there is no evidence that she really understands his main points. She may nod her head, agree verbally with
him, and seem to be going along with everything he says. But until
she begins to stop and think about what he is teaching and begins
to give back to him the main RET messages in her own words,
in the therapeutic process, to questioning the client

little

may

be accomplished.

It is

highly important, therefore, that

the therapist check the client from time to time to see whether

she has a real understanding of what he

is

talking about or whether

merely yessing him and giving empty

of the concepts he is discussing with her.
she

T^^:

is

some

lip service to

That's exactly right. Instead of saying, objectively, '1 have

this deficiency;
it's

now

let

me

undesirable to retain

see
it,"

what

can do about

it,

because

or instead of saying, as

said

before, "Let me see how I can accept myself even if I can't

change my deficiency," you're telling yourself, 'Tm a slob for
having this defect!" That's your definition. Now, the odd thing
is that almost everybody in the United States unthinkingly
accepts this same definition; and practically no one sees that
it is a definition. They think it's a fact. Isn't that amazing?
As I always say, if the Martians or the Venusians ever make
it

C92

to this earth, they're

going to be shocked!

(laughs) Yes, they are.

Amazing, no one seems

to question

No, each child does as his

mommy

it!

says.

Also, a child will lots of times define himself as a blackguard

on his own. Because if he fails and does so lots of times as

he inevitably will even if Mommy didn't call him a slob, he
would probably tend to think he is worthless. It's sort of a
normal, natural conclusion for a young child,

who

can't think

1^

>

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

283

straight because of his youth, to say, "Because

failed at A,

Vm

bound to fail at X, Y, and Z; and therefore

B, C, and D,
I'm thoroughly incompetent at everything." That's what we
call overgeneralization; and human beings, especially young
children, tend to overgeneralize. Now, unfortunately, we also
help them to do this, in our society in fact, in most societies.
But they might well do it without social help, though probably
to a lesser degree. Anyway, it behooves us to help them to
think in a less overgeneralized manner. We'd better take the
child who tends to overgeneralize and calmly show him, a
thousand times if necessary, "Look, dear, because you did A,
B, C, and D mistakenly, that doesn't mean"
(^96.

"that you're going

to do X, Y,

and Z wrongly."

C^^:

you do A, B, C, and D badly, and

and Z wrongly, that doesn't mean that you're
a louse. It means, objectively, that you have deficiencies. So
you're not Leonardo da Vinci. Tough!" But we don't teach
them anything of the kind.
No. "You have to excel in everything. If you don't, that's bad!"

T99:

"That's terrible!"

T97:

"And even

That's right!

if

also do X, Y,

We

don't even say

of course, objectively bad;

when you

it's

it's

bad. Because

inconvenient;

it's

it

is,

a nuisance

keep

failing.

and you will get certain poor results if you

But it doesn't say anything about you personally,

as a

human

beings except that you're the kind of a creature

who

often

fails.

you define

it so.

Ci<^:

Well,

T^^^:

Yes.

fail;

think

It will

I'll

It

doesn't say that you're a

know what

take a

worm unless

to look for.

little practice.

It

won't take very long,

I'm sure, in your case, because you see the outlines, and

think you're very able to do this kind of thinking, which is

highly important. Many people deliberately shy away from

doing

it,

so they never see

it.

They're hopeless because, in

a sense, they don't want to see

it; they want the world to

change, or others to change, rather than wanting to change

themselves. But you want to see

hunk of

it

it,

and you have seen a large

already, in dealing recently with your parents. Con-

sidering the short length of time that

you've been working on

it,

saw you and that

you've done remarkably well.

Now

ALBERT

284

ELLIS, PH.D.

why you can't see the bigger hunk of it

which applies to you much more than to your relations with
your father and mother.
there's no reason

and look for these things we've been talking

make a list, if you're not going to remember
the things that come up during the week that you bother
yourself about. Make a list of the major times when you feel
upset, or when you believe you acted defensively instead of
feeling overtly upset. Look for these things; come in, and we'll
talk about them. I'll check what you find, just as I'd check
your lessons if I were teaching you how to play the piano.
You'll then be able to see your own blockings more clearly.
There's no reason why not.
So you go

about.

As

off

said,

continue to be encouraging to show Martha that she has been

make good progress so far and that she should be able to
continue to do so. But I stress that she well may not be able to
I

able to

do this entirely on her own at the present time and that therefore
it would be best if she kept coming in to see me, to check her own
impressions of what is bothering her and to make sure that she
works concertedly against her internalized philosophies that lead
her astray.

C^^^:

Because

need for

know

need

Logically,

it.

to males is a big

this right

know

now.

that

my

mean

can feel the

hang-up with relating

is something I

stumbling block; and this

have to overcome.
rpios.

Yes.

What

would advise you to do

or so for therapy, or every other

ble, join

Q104.
T^^^':

one of

my

is

week

to see

me

every week

or so; and also,

if

possi-

therapy groups for awhile, where

you'll

see and relate to others who have similar problems to yours.

You may get some insight into some of the things you're
doing by watching them and showing them how to solve some
of their difficulties. That's another helpful way, because we're
often just too close to ourselves. But if we see the same kind
of behavior in someone else, we say, ''Ah, I do that, too!"
\Yhen do the groups meet?
I have eight different therapy groups. They meet at different
times. When are you available?

A GIRL GUILTY ABOUT NOT FOLLOWING PARENTS' RULES

work

285

until 6:30 in the evening.

C106.

T^^^:

All right.

my

Most of

groups are evening groups. The only

groups with openings right now are the Monday group at 8:45
P.M.

C^^^:

and a new Wednesday group at

7:00.

Wednesday would be the

think probably

best.

But

can't

start just yet.

1109.

me know when you can start. Once you do start,

you have to come regularly once a week to group; and then
you can attend individual sessions on a more irregular basis,
any time that you want to have them. Being in the group
usually means that you can cut down on the individual ses-

All right, let

sions.
110.

All right;
to join

I'll

let

you know about the group when

am

ready

it.

'piii.

When would you

Ci^2.

Would Thursday night be

like

an individual session?

can see you at 10:00

all

right?

p.m.

T^^^:

C^i^:

All right.

T^^^:

And you just think about these things we have been discussing. And when you do come to the group, you may not say
anything for a couple of sessions, but may merely listen. But
the more you speak up, about your own problems and about
theirs, the

more you

starting, so things

will

may

get out of

be a

little

Your group
first;

just

is

but

it

will

get straightened out after a few weeks. As

this

combination of individual and group therapy, I'm sure

you'll

said,

with

get onto your basic problems and work against them

quite quickly especially since you

able to benefit so
116.

it.

confused at

much from

know

already that you are

just those first sessions.

come back after the third one, but I was waiting

tonsils out and I was having a very bad time
with them, and also financially. Then I got terribly anemic
and went to the doctor once a week for liver shots; and everyI

wanted

to

have

my

to

thing sort of

fell in

on

me

physically at that time. But

that those three sessions did

me

so

much

I've

And

realize

my

parents

also got the idea for the novel,

been working very hard on

it

me

good. It took

about two months to have the problem with

straightened out.

ever since.

all

and

ALBERT

286

T^^'':

ELLIS, PH.D.

gave you. As long as

you do this kind of homework, things will work. Okay, I'll
see you next week, then.

You've been using the material that

more individual session and several group

and then felt that she was doing very well and
that she could manage things on her own. She returned, over the
years, for another session from time to time, mainly to discuss the

The

client

came

for one

sessions of therapy,

problems of her parents, her husband, her children, or other close

associates. More than twelve years have now passed since the last
session of her original series of interviews, and she continues to
get along in life remarkably well. She is still in touch with me at
intervals, largely to refer her friends and relatives for therapy sessions. She has reality (rather than emotional) problems with her
parents; she is happily married and has two lively and seemingly
little-disturbed children; she gets along well with her husband, in
spite of his personal hang-ups; and she keeps writing successful books
and taking great satisfaction in her work. She is hardly free from
all disturbances, since she still has a tendency to become overwrought
about people treating her unfairly. But she seems almost fully to
accept herself, and most of her original problems are solved or kept
on a level of minimum upset. She still marvels at, and keeps telling
her new acquaintances about, the relatively few sessions of RET
that helped her to look at, understand, and change her basic anxiety-creating and hostility-inciting philosophy of life.

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