S. HRG.

11429

THE FISCAL YEAR 2016 BUDGET REQUEST FOR

THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE

HEARING
BEFORE THE

COMMITTEE ON
ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
ON
THE FISCAL YEAR 2016 BUDGET REQUEST FOR THE
U.S. FOREST SERVICE

FEBRUARY 26, 2015

(
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Energy and Natural Resources
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
WASHINGTON

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94047

2015

For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office

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COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES

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LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman

JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
RON WYDEN, Oregon
MIKE LEE, Utah
BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont
JEFF FLAKE, Arizona
DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan
STEVE DAINES, Montana
AL FRANKEN, Minnesota
BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana
JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia
CORY GARDNER, Colorado
MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico
ROB PORTMAN, Ohio
MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii
JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota
ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine
LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee
ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts
SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia
KAREN K. BILLUPS, Staff Director
PATRICK J. MCCORMICK III, Chief Counsel
LUCY MURFITT, Senior Counsel and Natural Resources Policy Director
ANGELA BECKER-DIPPMANN, Democratic Staff Director
SAM E. FOWLER, Democratic Chief Counsel
BRYAN PETIT, Democratic Senior Professional Staff Member

(II)

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CONTENTS
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page

Murkowski, Hon. Lisa, Chairman, and a U.S. Senator from Alaska ..................
Cantwell, Hon. Maria, Ranking Member, and a U.S. Senator from Washington ....................................................................................................................

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WITNESSES
Tidwell, Thomas, Chief, U.S. Forest Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture ..

ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED

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Cantwell, Hon. Maria

Opening Statement ...........................................................................................
Murkowski, Hon. Lisa
Opening Statement ...........................................................................................
Tidwell, Thomas
Opening Statement ...........................................................................................
Written testimony .............................................................................................
Responses to Questions for the Record ...........................................................

(III)

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THE FISCAL YEAR 2016 BUDGET REQUEST

FOR THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 2015

U.S. SENATE,
NATURAL RESOURCES,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:50 a.m. in room
SD366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Lisa Murkowski,
Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
COMMITTEE

ON

ENERGY

AND

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OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. LISA MURKOWSKI, U.S.

SENATOR FROM ALASKA

The Chairman. Good morning, we will call the Energy Committee meeting to order. Perhaps its because were starting a little
bit earlier or perhaps its because its a snow day, but it cant possibly be because theres lack of interest in what goes within the
Forest Service.
Chief Tidwell and Mr. Dixon, I welcome you to the Committee.
We are here for our third and our final budget hearing in the Energy Committee to review the Presidents request for the Forest
Service for FY 16.
Again, Chief, I appreciate you being here this morning to explain
the proposal.
It seems like we have the same conversation year after year
about how the Forest Service is going to get the timber cut up, provide more economic opportunities for our rural and forested communities. Over the last decade the timber harvest from the
Tongass has averaged just 35 million board feet a year. This is a
forest the size of West Virginia, but we see severe restrictions including the roadless designation that really put most of it off limits.
The Secretary apparently has a plan to transition the timber
harvest on the Tongass away from old growth to young growth.
Chief, you and I have talked about this. These small operators are
hanging on by their fingernails, and I keep repeating (and I will
repeat again today) that I worry theres not going to be anything
to transition to given what we have seen coming out of the Forest
Service operations.
Some would suggest that is really the whole point of where we
are going is to be in a situation where we are eliminating forestry
from the Tongass economic base. That is not something that is
right, and it is not something I can tolerate.
When you look at what we are seeing, and I know you know because I know you have been briefed on this, but there are no logs
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in the yard in the only sizeable mill. There is no federal assistance
that has been given to retool a single mill to handle young growth
in Southeast Alaska. I think that the Forest Service has broken the
federal governments promise to actively manage our National Forests. Now the failure to reauthorize Secure Rural Schools is revealing this stark reality to forested communities across the West.
We have reached a point where if were not cutting trees on federal lands and we hardly are, then counties and parishes and boroughs are going to be cutting their budgets. We are certainly seeing
that in Alaska, and I would imagine in other Western states as
well.
The timber industry can be sustainable but the funding required
for Secure Rural Schools in the absence of timber harvesting simply is not sustainable. The Forest Service cant hide or make excuses any longer. Just 50 million dollars will be shared nationwide
with our communities under the proposal or the process going forward of SRS.
In Alaska what that means to us is $537,000 spread out over the
entire state. $537,000 in Alaska. We are going to work on forest
management reform legislation to help resolve this situation, but
the Forest Service has to be working with us.
Often we hear that recreation and tourism are the economic engines of the future, and I see this budget would increase funding
for recreation programs. I agree with you that these programs are
important. Certainly in Alaska we are very, very proud of our
recreation industry, but recreation and tourism are not substitutes
for responsible resource development on federal lands. They are
complements to it.
We have, for the past 50 years, shown that resource development, recreation and tourism can easily co-exist. We are very proud
of that fact, and we are very proud people want to come to Alaska.
It is on their bucket list. Its the before I die I want to see Alaska.
Yet they know we are a resource production state, and our return
tourists are what allow for that strong industry. So its not like
youve got a situation where we are not able to balance that within
our state. I think we do it. We have done it successfully and
sustainably.
Recreation and tourism also require public access, and these
days, just as we are seeing with resource development, even these
activities are being shut down by restrictive federal policies. When
you were up in the state we had a good opportunity to understand
what was going on in the Ketchikan area and Misty Fjords. We
have commercial flightseeing operators who take people around to
this pretty amazing place. The Forest Service on one hand is saying you need to move towards more recreation management, and
on the other hand they are saying, sorry, weve got to limit the
number of landings of float planes because they could impede the
areas wilderness character.
You are knocking out float planes that would allow so many people to see the Misty Fjords. It is not possible to see it any other
way. Its not like you can hike in. This is the way you can see it.
This is the way that you can access it, yet we have got the Forest
Service saying, no, it needs to manage this for wilderness character.

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And it goes beyond just that. I am going to bring up in my questions the concern that I am hearing from so many. This is not just
in Alaska, but so many others about the limitations on even being
able to view pictures or films because of the limitations or the restrictions for individuals who would film on our public lands or
Forest Service lands.
Chief, I told Secretary Jewell earlier this week and I think it
bears repeating, this Administration is actively impeding many of
our best economic opportunities in the West. It is depriving thousands who live in our states of the ability to find a good job, earn
a good wage and live a good life.
Before I conclude my comments I think I would be remiss if I did
not mention the elephant in the budget which is wildfire suppression funding. This budget, again, proposes a wildfire suppression
cap adjustment, and I share the primary goal of that proposal. We
absolutely have to stop the cycle of fire borrowing, but I also know
that there are concerns about the mechanics, particularly in this
constrained budget environment. There are several legislative proposals to consider here, and I do hope we can work on them with
you, Chief, as well as the Budget Committee.
I look forward to your responses this morning. Ill turn to my
Ranking Member, and then we will get started. Thank you.

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STATEMENT OF HON. MARIA CANTWELL, U.S. SENATOR FROM

WASHINGTON

Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank

Chief Tidwell and Budget Director Dixon for being here. I am sure
any member that comes to participate in this mornings hearing is
going to have very detailed questions for you given the nature of
the areas that we represent, so thank you for your budget proposal.
It is a pleasure to have you and the leadership of your team. The
health and vibrance of Americas national forests are of particular
interest to the American people and, as I said, to the individual
States we represent. I believe the Presidents budget is a strong
proposal that will enable the Forest Service to fulfill its motto of,
caring for the land and serving the people.
The budget not only improves the health of our land but also continues your predecessors legacy of managing the forest to provide
the greatest good to the greatest number of people in the long run.
This proposal also demonstrates a strong commitment to the full
range of national forest ecosystem services including water quality
improvement, recreational opportunity for the public, energy for
the nation, wildlife habitat, and timber and non-timber forest products.
But as you know, Chief, as we have discussed, there are particular issues that Washingtonians are worried about. I will look
forward to bringing up some of those in the Q and A part of this
hearing today.
Last year the Pacific Northwest saw the number of acres destroyed by wildfire increase by 200 percent above the yearly average. In Washington we experienced the worst wildfire in our history. In 24 hours the Carlton Complex burned 156,000 acres and,
at its peak, moved at five acres per second, destroyed over 300

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homes and accounted for seven percent of the total acres destroyed
by wildfires in the United States last year.
Most of my Western colleagues have, in recent hearings, shared
similar stories, and this is a problem we must confront immediately. In this respect I want to commend you on your budgets
three-pronged approach to address our nations wildfire problem.
Stable funding. This budget would ensure that the Forest Service
would not have to transfer funding from its land management accounts to pay for fire suppression. I support fixing the Forest Service fire transfer problem which has placed enormous strain on its
budget for more than a decade. That is why I joined Senators
Wyden and Crapo as original co-sponsors of the Wildfire Disaster
Funding Act legislation that is endorsed by this budget.
Secondly, in management. I also support provisions in this budget that would increase the land management activities that reduce
fire risk, improve water quantity and quality and enhance carbon
sequestration.
Third, collaboration with private landowners. I appreciate your
collaboration just this morning on reviewing some of the activities
that happened in the Carlton Complex Fire with one of our larger
employers, Gemplers Farm, who were part of the response to that
fire.
I am also excited about your engaging private landowners to take
steps to reduce the risks posed by fires, and I would like to share
a few important facts that demonstrate why this collaboration is so
important.
Today there are 46 million homes, that is 40 percent of all the
houses in the U.S., located in the Wildland-Urban Interface. In the
1990s, only about four percent of homes were located in this interface. Fire experts cite housing development in the Wildland Urban
Interface as the number one reason firefighting costs have increased over the last 15 years. Only 16 percent of the WildlandUrban Interface has been developed. When 50 percent is developed,
suppression costs could rise to a dramatic $4 to $5 billion annually.
Given these facts I am particularly interested in discussing with
the Forest Service efforts to make prescribed fire a tool that is
more accessible to private landowners. I learned reading your
budget that wildfires helped the forest conditions on 70 percent of
the acres they burned last year, and these were conditions the Forest Service planned to spend money to create. The ARPS Canopy
Model you developed in 2014, when deployed more broadly, will be
a great example of using technology to help get that reintroduced
onto private land in a safe and effective manner.
Although there is a great deal to be pleased about in this budget
there are a few items that are confusing and need further explanation.
I am pleased to see that you still plan to reduce hazardous fuels
on 1.73 million acres in that Wildland-Urban Interface; however, I
am concerned about your intention to treat fewer acres that are
supported by Community Wildfire Protection Plans. 70,000 communities are at risk for wildfire, but only 15,000 have a Community
Wildfire Protection Plan.
It appears you intend to prioritize projects in places where local
officials have not reached an agreement on which treatments to

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use. This seems inconsistent with the Administrations emphasis
on collaboration. I definitely want to talk to you about that.
Similarly, I do not understand why the budget proposes a sixpercent cut in Preparedness funding. $63 million. Your own Fire
Budget Analysis tool concluded that every dollar cut from Preparedness funding results in an increase of 1.7 dollars in the cost
of suppression. I look forward to discussing those issues further.
I want to just bring up in my statement the importance of recreation. The Chairman just brought that up as well. Im pleased that
this years budget builds on our recent track record of success with
a proposed modest increase of $2 million for recreation.
Recreation on our national forests contributes $13 billion to the
economy and 194,000 jobs. They are created from the National Forest system, and thats about 40 percent of the National Forest contribution to our GDP. The economic impact of recreation on our national forests is more than four times as large as our harvesting
timber which provides for 2,000 jobs and creates $2.7 billion annually, so actually timber harvesting is among the lowest contributors
on the national forests today. It ranks right around livestock grazing in national forests in terms of job impact. Truthfully, today
only about three percent of the domestically produced timber comes
from the National Forests.
Revitalizing and expanding recreation on our National Forests is
an initiative that Senators on both sides of the aisle can get behind, and today youth spend 50 percent less time in our natural
areas than they did 20 years ago. We certainly want to look at
every way that we can increase that. I will have some questions
on that specifically. Investment in recreation is an investment in
which we can get a high return.
The average age of a Forest Service facility is 39 years old, and
one-third of the facilities are more than 50 years old. While it
makes sense that you removed over 2300 of these facilities in 2014,
I am pleased the budget calls for the significant investment of $33
million to address their deferred maintenance.
I am pleased to know, if I am reading your budget right, that
about $1 million of that would be an investment specifically at
Mount St. Helens National Monument.
I would also like to commend the President for a strong commitment to fully funding the Land and Water Conservation Fund in
this budget. Six thousand acres of open space are lost each year to
development. That is about four acres per minute. The Forest Services Land and Water Conservation investment would permanently
protect working forest lands and help maintain our rural jobs.
I just want to also mention that people in my state expect public
access to their land, so Im especially pleased to see your proposal
for five Land and Water Conservation Fund initiatives focused on
increasing public access.
I am pleased to note the Presidents budget proposal emphasizes
forest restoration. This is most clearly highlighted by the $822-million investment in the Integrated Resource Restoration line item,
or the IRR, which would improve 20 watersheds.
I also appreciate the way the Administration has viewed timber
harvesting as a means of restoration. In this term alone, the President is bringing a 25 percent increase in timber harvesting by fo-

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cusing on the timber harvesting that helps the forests. This proposal calls for national forests to produce 3.2 billion board feet of
timber by 2016. This is 50 percent more timber than the 2.1 billion
board feet of the Bush Administration. So, to me, this is how we
can take care of the land and take care of people.
Lastly while I remain concerned about the sharp decline in the
miles of streams the Forest Service would restore under this budget proposal, I am excited about the increase in road decommissioning. The budget increases the miles of decommissioning to
2,000 miles in 2016, a 25-percent increase.
I want to specifically thank Regional Forester Pena for working
with me to secure a substantial increase in the Legacy Roads and
Trails funding for the State of Washington and reducing our quantity of roads while allowing the Forest Service to concentrate its
limited resources. It has been greatly appreciated.
I am sure well have a lot more to say, and our colleagues will,
on subjects like the reauthorization of Secure Rural Schools. As I
said earlier, there are many things my colleagues, who are here
this morning, will have, Im sure, for the Forest Service because
each of us represent States that have an integral relationship with
the Forest Service.
So, again, thank you and Mr. Dixon for being here this morning.
The Chairman: With that we will turn to you, Chief, and welcome to the Committee. Good morning.

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STATEMENT OF THOMAS TIDWELL, CHIEF, U.S. FOREST

SERVICE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

Mr. TIDWELL. Madam Chair Murkowski, Ranking Member Cantwell, Senators of the Committee, once again its a privilege to be
here to be able to talk to you about the Presidents budget request
for the Forest Service for FY 16.
I appreciate your comments. You made many of my key points
already for me during your opening remarks, but I just want to
amplify a couple things.
This budget request, once again, will allow us to continue to
move forward with our efforts to restore the nations forests and
grasslands. It will allow us to treat over 2.9 million acres to improve the health and reduce the threat. It will allow us to restore
3,200 miles of streams, restore 2,000 miles of roads and improve
the ecological conditions on 20 different watersheds and also will
produce 3.2 billion board feet.
We want to add to our collaborative forest landscape restoration
project. This has proven to be a very successful program weve had
where we can make the commitment to provide funding, multiyear
funding, on a dedicated large landscape and through a collaborative
effort. Its producing very favorable results, and this budget request
will ask for an extension of that program.
I also want to build on this concept for this has worked out very
well where we have hazardous fuel issues, but there are parts of
the country where we have forest health issues that Id like to propose doing a pilot approach and probably five or six projects across
the country in areas outside of the hazardous fuel situations where
we have a fire dependent ecosystem, where we can show we can
produce the same type of results by making a multiyear investment

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on larger landscapes to address forest health and to sustain our industry.
This budget will also allow us to continue to build our support
addressing hazardous fuels. Well be able to treat another 1.7 million acres in our Wildland Urban Interface. We deal with 58 million acres of Wildland Urban Interface.
And Senator Cantwell, her facts and figures about how many
homes we have in the Wildland Urban Interface just stresses the
point why its so important for us to be able to move forward with
that.
Once again, our budget request is asking for a shift in how we
deal with fire suppression funding. It would allow us to budget for
70 percent of suppression costs within our budget and then 30 percent of those costs would come out of the Disaster Relief Fund.
That equals one percent of our fires. Well continue to suppress 99
percent of the fires within our budget, but that one percent which
we really feel we should be looking at these types of catastrophic
fires as really a natural disaster, and it should be funded out of the
Disaster Relief Fund. For instance last year our ten largest fires,
over $329 million. We dealt with over 5,200 fires just on the National Forest, but ten of those fires, $329 million. Those are the
type of fires we feel should be considered a natural disaster.
This approach will eliminate the disruptive practice of having to
shut down operations and transfer funds come August and September. Provide a stable level of funding. Allow us to be able to
continue to work through those months, so we can be more
proactive to address these concerns.
The other parts of this budget is that, you mentioned with Land
and Water Conservation funding, we again are proposing to move
forward with those programs and really target properties where
there is strong public support. In every case it reduces our management costs by acquiring these properties. It also assures public access will be able to be guaranteed in the future. It allows us to be
able to improve the overall watershed, you know, conditions. With
our Forest Legacy Program it allows us to help people to keep their
private lands working, to keep their private forested lands working.
We also are requesting some additional funds to deal with the
deferred maintenance in our recreation facilities, roads and also on
trails.
We also want to continue our work to expand and build on wood
markets. With the Secretarys proposal on green building initiatives to continue our work around biomass and were also asking
for additional funding for forest inventory and analysis. That is the
data that every state uses, that industry uses, to be able to have
the information to be able to back up the investments we need to
make in our integrated wood products industry, and it gives us the
information to really understand what we need to be doing on the
landscape to address the overall forest health concerns.
Then yes, once again, weve included the funding for a framework
around Secure Rural Schools. Its just essential we find a way to
be able to extend this program. Its proven to be very successful in
the past, not only the funding that goes to the counties and the
boroughs for their schools and roads, but also in Title II. It provided a significant amount of funding where we worked with the

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counties to be able to move forward with restoration projects and

has been proven very successful to eliminate a lot of the controversy and in my way, some of our best collaborative work has
come through the RAC Committees that are established under Secure Rural Schools.
Thank you again for the opportunity to be here, and I look forward to answering your questions this morning.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Tidwell follows:]

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The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Chief, and since we have so few
members here we will probably have an opportunity for several
rounds. Senator Cantwell had to excuse herself to go to another
markup, but she will be back. So we will be going back and forth.
Chief, I was listening to your comments and appreciate what you
are saying about forest health and what we need to be doing to address the fire borrowing. As I mentioned in my opening statement,
I am clearly with you on that. What I did not hear was what we
are going to do about timber harvest.
We are talking about everything else on our national forests. The
national forests that are supposed to be used, be managed, for multiple use. Well, multiple use, last time I checked, included harvest.
So I want to talk about that part of it in my first round here because Im just concerned that, again, when we talk about this transition to second growth and this proposal that the Secretary has
and that you are tasked with implementation its not something
that can actually bear fruit.
Until we passed the Sealaska Lands bill last year the CMAI requirement of the National Forest Management Act prohibited timber harvest on the Tongass until the timber had reached its so
called rotation age, and the rotation age for the Tongass is 90 to
100 years depending on where you are. Since we really did not see
significant timber harvest in the Tongass until the 1960s, the harvest of young growth ordinarily would not be allowed under the
National Forest Management Act for another 30 to 40 years.
You have also got a situation where, in the 60s when we saw
most of that timber harvest, it was along the beaches, it was along
the streams. So harvest of any of the young growth timber is not
going to be permitted in these areas because of the Tongass Timber
Reform Act and the 2008 Forest plan restrictions. The oldest of the
young growth isnt available for harvest, not withstanding this departure from CMAI.
So how do we get to what you are talking about here to really
see any viable harvest of second growth that will be available in
this time period when you are talking about this transition? It just
does not add up. I can understand on paper what it is that you are
looking for, but in the Tongass, given the nature of what we are
dealing with, how do you make this work?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Madam Chair, first of all when I look at the
progress weve been making over the last few years I feel good
about the progress were making. When I look back
The CHAIRMAN. Describe to me the progress because
Mr. TIDWELL. Well
The CHAIRMAN. People in Southeast Alaska do not feel like there
is a lot of progress. A lot of our small operators are looking and
saying, Im out of here. They cannot keep people on a payroll if
they do not have logs in their yard. So where are we on progress
with that?
Mr. TIDWELL. So with what were proposing in our FY 16 budget
nationally our level of harvest will have gone up 33 percent over
the last, about, six years.
The CHAIRMAN. Are we talking the Tongass?
Mr. TIDWELL. No, were talking nationally.

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The CHAIRMAN. But we are not talking the Tongass. I want to
talk the Tongass.
Mr. TIDWELL. Well
The CHAIRMAN. Because this is my states or used to be my
states economy, but now there is no economy down there anymore.
You are talking about this transition to second growth and there
is no way, at least in Southeast Alaska, at least in the Tongass,
our nations largest national forest, that we are seeing progress. I
want you to define progress for me to the people of the Tongass.
Mr. TIDWELL. Well the progress, I think, as you look at what
weve been able to accomplish, you know, the last couple years. We
are putting up more. Its not adequate.
The bridge timber we talked about to be able to provide the
bridge until we can move into the second growth. We were able to
get the Big Thorne sale out last year. Were optimistic well be
moving forward with it this year.
The CHAIRMAN. We have got a little bit of an ESA issue with Big
Thorne. You and I both know that. So to say that we have got it
out there
Mr. TIDWELL. Were working
The CHAIRMAN. And it is going to be this big bridge out there.
The people on Prince of Wales are not so optimistic about this right
now.
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Senator, Im going to remain optimistic based
on the work that weve done to be able to address the concerns with
species. At the same time were going to be moving forward with
additional sales this year. Were going to be moving forward with
Wrangell, with Saddle Lakes.
The CHAIRMAN. What will those sales yield us in terms of board
feet?
Mr. TIDWELL. Were going to put another 70 million board feet
up for sale this year, and then the same thing the next year and
maybe a little bit more. The Kausko sale with the Sealaska bill
and I do want to thank you for getting that through because it does
help us to address the CMAI issue. It will modify the Kausko sale,
so well have to put a little more work into that before we can move
forward with it.
But were going to be moving forward with those. We are planning to do the bridge, what we call the bridge timber, until we can
get to second growth, and there are areas in thatyou know, we
workedweve actually been using some of the examples of
Sealaska as put forward with some of their sales to be able to show
that there is a market for the second growth.
Its one of the things that, not only the Forest Service wants to
move into this, but you see that Sealaska also wants to move into
developing the markets for second growth. Were going to continue
to put up our bridge sells, and as we begin to start putting up second growthwe had a small second growth sale last year. Were
going to have some more small sales this year. Next year well have
a larger second growth sale. So thats the transition.
Its also essential that the Advisory Committee that, once again,
Im confident that that Advisory Committee is going to come up
with some very good recommendations about what should be the
land base as we move forward with second growth. What are some

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of the guidelines that people can maybe agree to about how to
move forward? What are the timeframes? Im optimistic that that
Advisory Committee will provide us with a recommendation that
could be one of the alternatives that well look at as we amend the
forest plan.
So that is our path forward, and Im going to remain confident
on the Big Thorne until otherwise. At the same time we are moving
forward with additional sales this year.
The CHAIRMAN. Chief, I have let you go over two minutes because I wanted to actually hear if there would be anything in your
statement that I could believe was going to provide hope that were
going to see something different out of the Forest Service for the
people of the Tongass. Maybe two minutes wasnt adequate to let
you explain it, but I dont think you were offering anything more
than you have which is nothing, which is nothing to the people of
the Tongass.
Now, I am going to have an opportunity for a second round here
to talk about some of the retooling. I want to talk about Secure
Rural Schools because right now Ive got an industry that is not
confident of their future. Theyve got to figure out how theyre
going to keep the people who want to live and raise their families
in the Southeast, how they are going to find some other work.
I am not encouraged this morning, and I dont think the people
in my state are encouraged this morning.
With that Ill go to my friend from New Mexico.
Senator HEINRICH. Thank you, Chairman.
First, Chief, I want to thank you for the work around the transition for the Valles Caldera National Preserve and all the effort that
the Forest Service has put into that. As you know that CFLRP
work there is the foundation on which we can then do the Santa
Fe National Forest CFLRP work in the surrounding Jemez Mountains. Its incredibly important for the Jemez.
I really appreciate your staffs work, together with the Park
Service, to resolve those transitional issues and to keep that local,
tribal contractor in business so that we continue to have that capacity to then put them to work on the Santa Fe National Forest
areas as they finish up their NEPA process. I think thats really
important, and I want to say thank you for that work.
I also want to commend you for the increase in CFLRP. That
funding and that program have been incredibly successful at reducing hazardous fuels, at restoring watersheds, at reducing the conflict that weve seen in our national forests. It is a big piece of how
we get ahead of the fire curve.
Speaking of fire, your budget request includes reform of how we
budget for the largest, most catastrophic and expensive fires in the
National Forest system. That is a reform that has been driven on
a bipartisan basis by a number of the people on this Committee.
Its something I strongly support. In New Mexico we know we need
to spend more resources restoring our forests to a healthy condition
so that we can spend less time and effort and resources fighting
the huge, catastrophic fires that result from unhealthy forests.
If the proposed fire budget reforms were passed, how would that
impact funding for hazardous fuels reductions in both watershed

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and watershed restoration in New Mexico and other Western
states?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Senator, if were able to pass legislation to
address the fire suppression issue it will, once again, eliminate the
need to transfer funds in August and September to allow us to continue to be able to do that work. It also allows us in this budget
to request the same level of Hatfields funding that we received in
the past. Last year was a significant increase of over $50 million,
and we really appreciate the Committees support on that.
It allows us to request additional funding to do more forest restoration. We have countless examples, many in your state, where
by getting in there and thinning out the forests we not only can
reduce the threat, but we reduce the severity of wildfire. It is what
we need to do. We just need to find ways to be able to continue
to expand on that work. The other thing it will help us is to be able
to move forward with the new Farm bill authorities because, once
again, we will not have to worry about having to stop and shut
down operations.
Senator HEINRICH. Well, I appreciate your focus on it. I couldnt
agree more. And weve seen around the state in the Cibola in Western New Mexico. Its a great example, but in many places around
the state, we simply dont have the big old 3640 inch, DBH trees
anymore in New Mexico. Being able to retool and then focus on
these thinning projects has been key to sustaining what industry
we have and making those fires much more manageable and much
more like what they were historically when they served such an
important ecosystem function within our Ponderosa Pine forests.
Shifting gears just a little bit. I have heard from constituents
who have faced some pretty severe obstacles in applying for recreational special use permits on national forest. I know firsthand
how challenging that is having run an organization that relied on
those special use permits to get kids into the back country for educational purposes. We also are seeing a large number of veterans,
a large interest in getting veterans, into our national forests for
therapeutic reasons.
One of my constituents, who is a veteran himself and runs a
business that provides those sort of therapeutic outings for veterans recovering from PTSD has been told by the Cibola National
Forest that they wont even begin to consider his application for his
permit until 2016 because they lack the staff. How does this budget
address the backlog in recreational permit review and is the backlog a matter of funding or are there other obstacles that we can
help with to get to more timely decisions on those?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well this budget request does ask for some additional money in recreation that will help address that backlog, but
we also need to look at our permitting process to find some ways
to put more efficiency into that, especially around, not only with
outfitter and guides, but also with folks who want to take out
youth.
Senator HEINRICH. Right.
Mr. TIDWELL. And to find, maybe, a different mechanism to be
able to deal with that in a way so that theres certain areas where
we need the skills of outfitters and guides. Theres other areas that

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people can take youth out to experience the outdoors for the conservation education, and it can be, maybe, a different experience.
So we want to work to come up with an approach that will allow
us to be able to address that a little bit faster, be more effective.
When I hear not until next year we can even address it, I hate
that. I understand why our folks would say that because of the reduction of our staffing, but its another example of whats happened
to our agency staffing with the cost of fire suppression.
Since 2003 cost of fire suppression, the ten year average, has
gone up $740 million. Itsthe result of that. We reduced our staffing and our national forest system staffing by 35 percent. Foresters, 49 percent. When I think about the work our folks are getting done every year, Ill tell you its just so impressive, but at the
same time we just have to find a fix.
Senator HEINRICH. Yeah.
Mr. TIDWELL. Because the cost of fires, even though doing everything we can are going to continue to increase, especially in the
Wildland Urban Interface. Weve got to find a way to fix that so
that we dont continue to have to look at moving funds from other
programs in a constrained budget.
Those are the things were looking at to improve our recreation
services immediately, but this fire suppression fix is a long term.
Senator HEINRICH. I apologize, Madam Chair, for going over. I
look forward to working with you on that issue. We are working
on legislation.
I know firsthand the old system really treats the Boy Scouts the
same way they treat a hunting outfitter guide, and I think we need
some more nuance. We need some more efficiency.
And in a state where 68,000 people work in the outdoor recreation industry, we cant afford to be telling a veteran-owned business like that wait until next year. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Heinrich. Senator Daines.
Senator DAINES. Alright. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Chief Tidwell, thank you for being here today.
Montana used to boast a robust timber economy. However since
the late 80s harvests on our national forests are down 82 percent,
and weve lost now nearly 30 mills. In fact, of the 11 surviving
mills many workers there today are facing layoffs and reduced
hours. As we look at strong demand in the lumber industry we
cant get enough logs.
Meanwhile our national forests are suffering from insect infestation, overgrowth and, as you described, the risk to catastrophic
wildfire. The deteriorating health of Montanas national forests
jeopardize our public safety, our watersheds, undermines recreational hunting and frankly, is harmful to habitat.
Chief Tidwell, I hope we can work together to find some workable solutions trying to crack this nut that significantly increases
responsible timber harvest and improve the forest health across
Montana.
In fact, just last week I met with a variety of stakeholders regarding National Forest policy. It was a recess week in Washington, and I was back home in Montana. We had conservation. We
had sportsmen. We had mill workers. We had members from the
wood products industry. One strong message I heard from these

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folks, from a variety of directions, is the impact of objections and
lawsuits in obstructing these much needed timber sales and these
collaborative projects. In fact, to hear that our mills today, the surviving mills, are receiving logs from Oregon, from Washington,
from Canada, from Wyoming, when were surrounded by millions
of acres of national forests and much of it dying and still harvestable, to me, is a tragedy.
When I was growing up in Montana in Bozeman, my home high
school was a double A high school, the largest classification in
sports. The Libby Loggers up in Northwest Montana, they were a
double A school when I was going to high school. Today the Libby
Loggers, theyve dropped to A and just going into this year now
theyre a Class B high school. Theres a reason they call them the
Libby Loggers. This is where the heart of our logging industry is
in Montana. Theres not a single mill in Lincoln County today as
a result of whats going on in our timber industry. In fact, somebody said last week perhaps we should rename the Libby Loggers
and call them the Libby Lawyers because thats whats going on
now. The timber industry has been stopped by this habitual litigation.
So my question is how are these objections and litigation affecting the Forest Services ability to complete timber projects in Montana in a reasonable time period?
Mr. TIDWELL. Senator, since weve moved from the old appeals
process to the objection process that actually is a better way to
move forward. Were able to address the concerns before we make
the decision, and its proving to be an effective approach. However,
it does take some time. The litigation definitely does impact. Its
not just the litigation when we get a temporary restraining order
where we have to stop and wait. Every time we get a lawsuit the
same staff that would be preparing for the next project have to prepare to go to court. We pull the information together for our attorneys to go to court. For me, thats probably the biggest impact to
litigation because we dont have a separate staff just to be able to
put together the information so the attorneys can go to court over
it. Its the same folks that would be working on the next project.
Were very successful. We win the majority of our cases, and I
think up in your part of the country, the last I heard, something
like 17 and 19, the last cases we won. Even when we win, it still
has that impact because it slows down the development of the next
project because we only have one set of staff to be able to deal with
it.
Now we are making good progress with the collaborative efforts
in your state, and were seeing that. I do understand the frustration where you have that strong collaborative and people reach
agreement about the project going forward.
I can use the Colt Summit a couple years ago where we had really tremendous support across the board from the conservation community, the environmental community and of course, the county
and the state. Then we got sued, and we went through the process.
Yes and we finally implemented the project, but it took another
year or so to do it. So I understand that frustration. The solution
I do believe, is to
Senator DAINES. Go ahead. The solution is?

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Mr. TIDWELL. The solution, I think, is to continue to find ways
to support these collaborative efforts so that we can move forward
in a way to actually implement the projects.
I understand from time to time were going to be sued. and if we
ever do anything thats wrong, Ill understand that. I understand
thats part of the process.
Senator DAINES. Quickly to this insect infestation issue.
Our governor designated five million acres in the Montana National Forest Service thats eligible to be managed under the
streamline processes established in the 2014 Farm bill. Based on
feedback from Montanans I heard, I heard all about it last week.
Im concerned the Forest Service is not moving fast enough to implement this policy. I think its good policy that came out of the
Farm bill. This is exactly the kind of solutions we need to start
moving on harvesting dead trees. Thats what were asking for
right now.
I anticipate Congress funding Fiscal Year 16 to help implement
this program, but can we expect some meaningful results on the
ground now between today and October when the new fiscal year
begins?
Mr. TIDWELL. Yes, Senator. In fact the first project that we used
under the Farm bill authority for a CE. We actually put the decision out last December in your state. I know in that region they
planned another five to six projects this year. Theyre moving forward with both the CEs and also using the expedited procedures
for EAs and EISs. So we are moving out, and I want to thank the
governor for his approach to be willing to put some state funding
to work with us on that to be able to help us get more work done.
Were also looking forward to using the Good Neighbor Authority
where we can work closely with the states to be able to use some
of the state resources to help us to be able to get more work done.
So we are moving forward on that. And FY 16, I think, is when
youll really see probably the big increase in the number of projects
where well be using those new authorities.
Senator DAINES. Okay. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Warren.
Senator WARREN. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
According to Forest Services assessments, more than half our
nations fresh water comes from forest ecosystems. Agricultural
Secretary Vilsack has noted that clean, healthy, forests are vital to
our efforts to protect Americas fresh water supply.
Chief Tidwell, can you just explain a little bit about why thats
so?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, to provide clean water you need healthy forests because it protects the soil. It has the over story plus the
under story so that when we do have disturbance events like big
rains or floods, wind storms, etcetera, having that healthy forest
maintains the ecosystem so that the system can filter the runoff
and produce that clean water.
Its one of the reasons that youll seeespecially when were
working with EPA about how to continue to make sure were providing clean water. There is a general understanding we have to
start with healthy forests. You know that as well as anyone from
your state.

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Senator WARREN. Yes, thank you, sir. Let me then follow up on
that by asking I know youre concerned about how climate change
threatens our forests and threatens the many benefits that they
provide to Americans including clean water. Youve testified before
this Committee and I think Ive got your quote here that, climate
change is already altering our nations forests in significant ways
and those alterations are likely to accelerate in the future. What
Id like to ask is how does climate change affect the clean water
benefits that our forests provide to our communities?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, if we lose our forested ecosystems from any
disturbance event, but especially what were seeing with the shift
in climate, were going to lose that filtering process to be able to
provide the clean water. Thats why weve continued to invest in
our research and development part of the agency so that we understand the effects of a changing climate on vegetation and what we
need to do differently to be able to address whether its a threat
of wildfire, whether its the threat of insect and disease, whether
its the threat of more invasives.
It seems like every invasive that comes into our ports, especially
here in the East, that a warmer climate seems to provide a more
favorable environment for those species.
Senator WARREN. Yes, we evidently are very hospitable to
these
Mr. TIDWELL. Yes, the Emerald Ash Borer is a perfect example.
It came into the country over 30 years ago and it pretty well just
stayed in the mid part of the Atlantic Coast. As weve seen the
weather change, the climates change, the Emerald Ash Borer has
now made it to Canada because of the lack of having, really, any
long, cold winters.
Senator WARREN. Can you talk just a little bit about what the
Forest Service is doing right now in response to climate change?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, what weve done is weve looked at each one
of our national forests and weve done an assessment to first of all,
make sure we understand the current conditions, and then to make
sure that our staff understands the things they need to be looking
at into the future.
When we talk about restoring the forests its not to restore it to
something in the past. We need to be restoring the forest to the future. And in some situations to really look at if theres going to be
a different species composition of the forest as were looking out 20,
30, 40 years in front.
So thats where we rely on our scientists to provide the science
and then for our land managers to use that in designing the
projects as we go forward.
Senator WARREN. Well, thank you very much, Chief. You know,
our forests face a number of threats and climate change is a very
big one. Protecting our forests from threats has so many benefits,
soil erosion, protect habitats for wildlife, take in atmospheric carbon, not to mention providing the recreational opportunities and
contributing to regional economies, as others here have talked
about.
As weve heard, healthy forests are vital to protecting our fresh
water supply. It makes sense to make forward looking investments
to address the real threats that our forests face today so that our

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forests can continue to contribute in providing important health
benefits for all of us and building a strong future.
Thank you very much, Chief, and thank you for your work.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Capito.
Senator CAPITO. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Chief,
for being here with us today.
Id like to talk about one aspect of your area of responsibility
that is impacting our state right now. Im from West Virginia, and
the construction and maintenance of adequate pipeline capacity is
critical to our nation and our state. We have a shale gas boom in
the Marcellus shale in West Virginia and thats providing us with
amazing opportunities, but we cant do this without pipelines.
In West Virginia at least four natural gas pipelines are being discussed. One such pipeline, I hope youre familiar with this, is the
Atlantic Coast pipeline which is going through the Mon Forest in
West Virginia, a 17.1 segment will go through Pocahontas and
Randolph counties.
I think theyre having, as part of the review process, community
meetings and review. But the Forest Service has to make a separate determination as to whether to issue a right of way permit to
conduct, operate and maintain a natural gas transmission project.
I would like to know if you are working with FERC and DOE to
examine the importance of proposed pipelines and what this process is, in terms of your role in the Forest Service?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Senator, we do work with FERC on projects
and also Department of Energy. We have many, many, thousands
of miles of pipeline that cross the national forests, so this is something that we deal with on a routine basis.
As part of the analysis, well look at the location. Wheres the
best location to minimize impacts. Thats a thing that we look at.
We also look, if possible, to minimize the amount of road construction that needs to be done because often with a pipeline they can
just use the construction zone as their access point.
Those are the things that we look at to minimize the impact but
then also to ensure that everything is being considered so that
pipelines are located in a place where theyll have less of a potential problem in the future. Its one of the things we work very closely with the proponent, but then also with the public, to be able to
get the publics concerns and be able to address that. Thats the
path well move forward with this pipeline, like we do it for all.
Senator CAPITO. Right. I think thats the process youre in right
now, and I appreciate that.
Id like to talk about the Secure Rural Schools. Ive been a supporter of that. I have, obviously, some rural counties in West Virginia. Pocahontas County, for instance, has gone from $581,000 a
year to $95,000; Randolph County, $383,000 to $62,000; Webster
has lost $176,000; Pendleton County, $171,000; Tucker County,
$170,000. I know this doesnt sound like large figures but when
youre trying to
Mr. TIDWELL. Right.
Senator CAPITO. In a rural area afford your schools it really impacts the schools. There are long bus rides, and its an expensive
system to maintain in a rural area like this.

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I would like to work with you to try to address this issue, so
what suggestions would you make at this point for us besides reauthorizing, so we can make sure that these school systems which are
really struggling and the county systems are able to rely on us for
reliable funding?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, first of all, Senator, theres tremendous urgency around this.
Senator CAPITO. Right.
Mr. TIDWELL. As you point out that the impact of this. Weve proposed a framework in our budget request which provides funding.
We really want to work with the Committee on the path forward,
but I think the past with the titles of the past Secure Rural School
authorizations worked very well. Theres a lot of benefits for all
three of those titles, but its just essential that we find a way to
move forward and get this reauthorized just as quickly as we can.
I dont care what county, I mean, for some counties theres larger
levels of funding. But when I look at the impact and how severe
it was from one year to the next.
Senator CAPITO. Yeah.
Mr. TIDWELL. Without any time for any planning, etcetera, its
essential that we just find a way to get this reauthorized as soon
as we can, and we want to do everything we can to work with the
Committee to find a path forward.
Senator CAPITO. Im sure the Chair intends to work diligently on
this, because I think theres a lot of bipartisan agreement that this
needs to move forward.
Ill just make a quick comment and then Ill thank you again.
Youve mentioned a lot about the cost of fire suppression. I think
while we havent been, on the East Coast or at least in West Virginia, the victim of large and broad wildfires, we have been the victim of the shifting of the funds. So I would encourage and work together to try and meet that challenge. Thank you very much.
Mr. TIDWELL. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Capito, and know that this
is a priority, certainly, to figure out how we deal with Secure Rural
Schools. I know that Senator Wyden is very keyed in on this, and
I look forward to working with him and with you as well. Senator
Wyden.
Senator WYDEN. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. I appreciate that. And Senator Capito, were very pleased to hear your
comments. I know you joined as a co-sponsor of our legislation this
week, the bill that I introduced with Senator Crapo. We wrote that
bill in this room in 2000.
Chief, thank you for your continued support and persistence in
speaking up for it. Ill just very quickly mention I do hope that we
can make mandatory the PILT program as part of it because that
helps give us a broader base for it. Senator Capito made, I think,
essentially that same point.
Were looking for ways to grow our coalition for Secure Rural
Schools, and making PILT mandatory will help us do that. As you
know in the one year reauthorization for PILT we basically came
up with a process that short changed that formula so now weve got
frustrated communities about two areas of Secure Rural Schools
and about PILT. So we look forward to working with you on that.

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Let me talk to you about water for a moment. As you know my
constituents are really on the cusp of coming up with a fresh approach for dealing with these contentious water battles, and were
having them all over the West. Again, this Committee played a
leading role because essentially out of our work in the last Congress we came up in the Klamath Basin with something that really
hadnt been done before and that was a task force that cut the cost
of the program, eliminated some of the political battles between
folks in different parts of the Basin. We felt we were really right
on the cusp of being able to enact it into law.
Most recently we have bumped up against a serious problem involving the ownership of the Mazama Forest. As you and I have
talked about here in the last couple of days, the Klamath tribe has,
as Ive indicated, continually worked in good faith. They have concerns about whats happened. Were going to have to find ways to
deal with it, and make sure the tribes are treated fairly. I would
just like to have, because I know people at home are listening to
this, your thoughts on this and the commitment you gave to me,
that youll work with us to make sure the tribes are treated fairly
because this will be key to actually getting this passed into law. I
introduced it in the last session of Congress. Senator Merkley with
the California Senators, we want to get it done this time. So having
your commitment and having you on record today would be very
helpful.
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Senator, we are committed to work with you
and Senator Merkley to be able to find a solution, and I look at the
benefits here providing a solution for the tribe and at the same
time to deal with the water issues that are essential for the farmers and the ranchers. Once again, were going to be faced with another very, very dry year.
Then at the same time to be able to factor in opportunities for
us to increase the level of forest management here. I think theres
some opportunities here for a very creative approach, and its something that we could look at finding not only to address the solutions here but maybe in other parts of the country too.
So were more than committed to being able to work with you to
be able to find a solution to this because its one of those issues
that you cant change the past, cant change the history, but its an
opportunity to, kind of, move forward in a way that we can address
this in a way that everybody benefits. The tribes benefit. The water
users benefit. Industry can benefit from it. The public, in general,
benefits from it. Thats what Im looking forward to, and Ill tell
you that I talked to my staff. Theyre already rolling up their
sleeves ready to go to work on this to look at some creative solutions.
Senator WYDEN. Well, thank you, Chief, and this will help Oregon. This will help people who live in the Basin. But I do think
it has the potential to be a model for dealing with water issues
around the country.
Let me ask you about one other question before my time runs
out, and thats the question of fighting wildfires. As you know we
have a bipartisan bill in the Senate. We have a bipartisan bill in
the House because the system is essentially broken.

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What we have is a situation where you all dont get enough resources in order to deal with prevention, then you have a situation
where it gets hotter and drier and you have a lightning strike and
all of a sudden you have an inferno on your hands. In effect the
Prevention Fund is asked to put up money to help put the fire out
and the problem gets worse because you have shorted prevention.
Were trying to change that. We have the Administrations support so these big fires, these infernos, would get handled from the
Natural Disaster Fund.
Tell me what it means to you as we wrap up to have that kind
of flexibility as the bipartisan bill in the Senate and House seeks
to do.
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, the benefits of having this legislation pass is
one, it resolves the issue. It provides stable funding for suppression, and we no longer have to start off and sometimes in July, but
definitely in August, contacting all of our units to see what funds
are available then start to pull that money back to be able to transfer it.
Even in the very few years that we end up not having to transfer, we still have to go through all that work. It shuts down operations, it puts people out of work, and most times Congress then,
sometime in the future, pays the money back.
So this is your proposal, it was scored neutral by the Congressional Budget Office. Its just a better business model, a better approach. At the same time, 99 percent of the fires will still be covered out of our budget. Its just this one percent.
You had one fire in your state last year. Senator Cantwell had
one. We had quite a few in Oregon. But just last year the top ten
fires, $329 million, and thats out of 52,000 fires just on the national forest. So were going to continue to suppress 98 percent of
our fires where we take initial attack. Its just this one percent that
really does need to be considered a natural disaster.
Senator WYDEN. Thank you, Madam Chair.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator Gardner.
Senator GARDNER. Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you,
Chief Tidwell, for your time and testimony today.
Following up on the theme that Senator Wyden was talking
about, one of the things that we have to work on together, I think,
is this issue of how disaster designations work when it comes to
forest fires. The immediate aftermath of the hydrophobic soil conditions as it results in flooding and some of the damage that can
occur to transportation systems, drinking water systems and others
and making sure that our disaster declarations and designations
reflect the nature of Western catastrophies like a wildfire verses an
Eastern disaster like a hurricane or something else. I mean, thats,
kind of, what we have to work on in some of our disaster designations and would enjoy the opportunity to work with you on that.
I wanted to also talk a little bit about fire suppression issues. As
you know the various insect infestations in Colorado continue to
grow, and the spruce beetle last year alone, we had a 22 percent
expansion of the spruce beetle infestation, which of course, results
in greater fire dangers.

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It appears as if the request for fire management within the budget for research and development request for fire management remains stagnant. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Mr. TIDWELL. On the research and development part?
Senator GARDNER. Yes, for fire management, yes.
Mr. TIDWELL. Yeah, our budget request just reflects the constrained budget scenario we work under and where weve tried to
target some very specific areas of our program to ask for additional
funding around, for instance, wanting to move forward with forest,
increasing forest management, but were asking for a continued
level with research.
Were also contining to expand our partnership with universities.
In fact, some work thats potentially going to occur in your state
about how to expand and leverage the funding we have to be able
to work with others to be able to continue to do that essential research.
Theres no question, we could always use more, broadening every
program and every research area, but we feel that this is an adequate level to continue the research thats ongoing to be able to understand and address the problems that were going to be facing.
Senator GARDNER. If we have time well get into a little of that
work of whether its the Colorado Forest Restoration Institute, the
Southwest Ecological Restoration Institutes, I would love to continue our conversation on that.
In line with the wildfire issues though, I know were talking
about various changes to the funding of wildfire efforts and activities. In Fiscal Year 2016 the FLAME account is not included in the
budget request, I believe. At $303 million in that account from last
year what happens to that money going forward, that $303 million
that was in the FLAME account?
Mr. TIDWELL. Youll see in our budget request that were maintaining the increase in hazardous fuels funding that we received
last year which is a little over $50 million. Were asking for another $20 million in our CFLR projects which helps us to address
hazardous fuels and restore forests. Were also asking for another
$27 million in our integrated resource restoration that allows us to
be able to restore our forests, reduce the threat.
And then also, the ten year average, once again, its gone up
$115 million, so just 70 percent of that is about $80 million. You
add those numbers up, plus you look at our overall budget request
is actually $130 million less than last year. That basically is that
$300 million difference.
Thats our approach so we can be more proactive and at the same
time understand the budget issues in this country and have, I
think, somewhat of a constrained budget. But theres where were
looking for that flexibility so we can be more proactive.
Senator GARDNER. And two additional questions on the Ski Area
Water Rights issues and the Ground Water Management Directive.
Where do we stand right now with the Ski Area Water Rights Directive?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, weve had good meetings and a lot of good
public comments so that were in a place to solve this issue in that
were not going to bewere going to address it by just working
with the permitees to provideit will be up to the ski areas to pro-

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vide the adequate water thats needed to operate their facilities,
and then when that permit transfers it will be up to the new operator. If they want a permit, theyre going to have to be able to show
they have water.
I feel that weve basically resolved this. Weve got a couple small
issues we have to work out on how, just the mechanics of it, but
I think were real close to having a final solution on this that will
work for everyone.
Senator GARDNER. Under the original proposal, I believe, its a
violation of both Colorado Water Law and the federal Takings Law,
Constitutional law. Do you think the proposal violates the Fifth
Amendment?
Mr. TIDWELL. What weve been operating under since 2004 which
was an agreement we worked out with the ski areas at the time,
everyone was happy, and we actually thought that it would work.
Senator GARDNER. Everyone was happy after that agreement?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, yes, in 2004 the NSAA worked with us to be
able to put that together, but then we found as we were implementing it that there was conflicts with state law and that was the
reason we had to go back and take another approach.
Its taken some time, a lot of discussion, a lot of dialogue, but
were now finally in a place that, I think, it will resolve this once
and for all. Its my understanding that we made good progress, and
NSAA is in agreement that this is a good approach.
Senator GARDNER. Well, I look forward to talking with you because I believe its also a violation of Takings, language in the Constitution, the Fifth Amendment.
Last year the Forest Service released a proposed directive on
ground water resource management. The Forest Service Ground
Water Directive obviously created a great deal of concern for states
like Colorado, including organizations like the Western Governors
Association, the National Water Resources Association, talking
about concerns both the substance of the rule and the lack of stakeholder outreach that went into its development.
Im very concerned about what this means and how this directive
was put together, and I hope you would commit right here to improving your outreach to stakeholders and to working with the
states and water users to address their concerns.
The second part of this question is Id like to learn more about
how this water directive, how this ground water management directive would work in areas like national grasslands where you
have checkerboard ownership, issues like the South Platte water
basin, the alluvial aquifer and the connections between the two. I
think thats opening up an entire area that has a lot of people concerned.
Mr. TIDWELL. Well the proposed directive is something weve
been working on for many years to have a consistent approach on
how to evaluate the impacts of our decisions on ground water to
prevent contaminating ground water from our decisions or impacting other peoples water, their water rights, with our decisions. So
weve never had a consistent approach, and theres been times
when weve been inadequate level of analysis and weve gone to
court. Theres been times when our actions have contaminated
ground water, and weve been sued. I want towe need to have a

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systematic approach so that we minimize any chance of contaminating ground water. When our decisions will have an impact on
water rights, someone elses water, we need to disclose that.
Sometimes we dont have any choice. We can mitigate as much
as we can, but theres sometimes we may, for instance, with the
mine proposal. We make a decision, a decision we have to make,
need to make, and it may impact water. So we want to be able to
work with the states.
So where we are today is that weve stopped. Were going to go
back. Were going to sit down primarily with the states, state water
engineers, and to really sit down with them and get their ideas
about how we can do this and ideally how we can do it together.
Theres some opportunities where some states are well positioned
to provide this for us, to be able to do the analysis that we can use.
Thats where were at right now. Were going to stop. Were going
to continue to work with the states until we figure out the right
way to go forward with this.
In the meanwhile I expect in some forests were going to probably
do more analysis than we need to. Hopefully in some places we
wont do less and end up in court again, but thats our approach
right now. Its something weve been working on for years.
Senator GARDNER. What about stakeholder outreach? Will you
commit to increasing more?
The CHAIRMAN. The Senators time has run out.
Senator GARDNER. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cantwell.
Senator CANTWELL. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Chief Tidwell, I apologize for having to run out to another committee markup. I very much appreciate you being here today.
My colleague, Senator Wyden, had a chance to talk to you, in
more detail about his fire budgeting proposal, S. 235. Obviously, we
want to get it enacted. If we dont, well be out of funds again this
year.
You and I had a chance to talk about the devastation that happened from the Carlton Complex Fire. Again, thank you for your
discussions yesterday and today about that. I am very interested
in what were going to do, the Forest Service and USDA, on moving
ahead on flood control with the Burned Area Emergency Response
teams. I definitely want your help and support in those communities in preventing the movement of the large amounts of ash that
are there, which could caused flooding in the area.
What are you thinking about pilots? Are you thinking about
using community wildfire protection plans to help us alleviate
these kinds of predicaments in the future? When communities find
themselves overrun by all of this, are you thinking about a way to
help bring order into communities after these events, like the
Carlton Complex Fire?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Senator, first of all we are going to continue
our restoration work on the Carlton Fire. We did the work last
year. Well continue to do more work here to stabilize some key
areas to reforest, replant some areas and also continue to do some
additional road work to stabilize that.
I guess that we were somewhat fortunate we have a pretty shallow snow pack this year and so we may not be subject to as much

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flooding as we could have been. I say that theres some benefits
and not with that because it sets us up for another potential dry
year.
But your point aboutin our community wildfire protection
plans theyre all focused on the work that we need to put into place
to prevent the catastrophic loss of homes and impact on communities. You bring up a good point about what we also need to be
thinking about when we do have fire because no matter what we
do were going to continue to have large fires, and we can make
steps so that we can definitely reduce the number of homes that
are lost, reduce the severity of wildfires. But were going to have
large fires.
So theres probably another component of this about what else do
we need to have in place so that, not only before the fire, the actions we need to take, but also during the fire, the actions that we
need to take. But also how can we make sure that we have thought
out what we need to do following that fire. And we worked quick
with our Burned Area Emergency Teams. They come in and quickly analyze the area and put some emergency steps into place.
Often the restoration then takes several years to follow that. Its
an opportunity for us to really think about after the fire, which is
also something we need to focus on. Its something to really look
at with our partners and our cooperators, the private landowners
and the communities.
So as much as I wish I could say yeah, if we can restore our forests, reduce the hazardous fuels, were not going to have these scenarios. Were still going to have large fires in this country from everything that were seeing, but we can reduce the threat to communities. We can definitely reduce the numbers, the thousands of
homes that are lost to wildfires every year, but were still going to
need recovery efforts.
Senator CANTWELL. Well, I think the entire Okanogan, which is
what we refer to as the region there, would gladly participate in
ways to increase the work in the community wildfire protection
plans and what we need to do moving forward, but I certainly want
your help on the emergency response teams now for flood control
and the community response in the area. So we definitely want to
work with you on that.
I think the one thing that weve talked about but maybe its really not been stated so specifically is were not really talking about
what were getting ready for and what we dont have resources for
and whether theyre emergency disasters or not. I think the thing
here that we saw, at least with the Carlton Complex, is this was
a weather event. That really high winds caused this acceleration.
So the question of weather and taking into consideration weather
patterns as it relates to our fire season, I think, is something were
going to have to pay a lot more attention to.
I wanted to ask you about recreation permits. My colleague had
a chance to ask you about that. Can you just discuss quickly about
getting nonprofit youth serving groups like the YMCA into our national forests and what we need to do to get that permit process
going so that they can also have access? It just seems to me if
somebody from the YMCA or YWCA only wants to take ten people

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into the forest service and educate them one Saturday morning
that they should be able to do that.
Mr. TIDWELL. Yes, Senator. As I described earlier we have our
outfitter and guide special use process that works very well for the
outfitter and guides that want to take people more into the back
country and have quite unique experiences. What youre describing,
especially with our youth, is really a different experience. We need
to look at being able to provide access so that its easy for folks to
take school kids, YMCA, YWCA, up onto the national forest and
the grasslands to be able to experience that.
Its one of the things that this coming year, actually for the next
ten years, working with the Department of Interior were going to
try to get every fourth grader out to a park, out to a forest for the
next ten years to expose them to the outdoors, provide an activity
for them. At the same time we need to find a way to make it easier
for school groups, community groups, nonprofits to be able to get
our youth out.
Senator CANTWELL. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. And just for my colleagues information the Chief is very familiar with the situation that we had in
a very small community in Southeastern Alaska where a day care
provider took her young charges out to have a picnic in a shelter.
Its not even a closed in shelter, just a picnic, and she was fined
because she didnt have a permit. Now this is not how we welcome
people to our public lands. So know that we want to work with you
on that.
Senator Risch.
Senator RISCH. Were they singing, this land is your land, this
land is my land, at the time? [Laughter.]
Chief Tidwell, thanks so much for your service. We really appreciate it. On behalf of Idahoans I can tell you that youve just been
a pleasure to work with, and I find you to be reasonable and hopefully continue with that relationship over the next 694 days as we
move along. I do want to put a couple of things on your radar
screen.
First of all I know you were a big proponent of the forestry section in the 2014 Farm bill, and we had high hopes for the categorical exclusion from the NEPA process in there.
Well, the first one we tried is the Jasper Mountain project. I
dont know if youre familiar with it or not. You might mark that
down. Its about 3,000 acres. They tried to use the designation by
prescription and a designation by description processes to move the
thing forward. As fate would have it theyre high centered with all
four wheels spinning now because they say they couldnt use those
in this particular situation, so Id appreciate it if youd have a look
at that. This is something you and I were both excited about, and
now here weve got the first one and the wheels have come off. So
if you could take a look at that I would appreciate it.
The second thing that I think my staff has talked to yours and
told you that I was going to ask you about this, but in 1980 the
Central Idaho Wilderness Act was passed. You may have been living in Idaho in 1980 at the time. In any event, as you recall, it was
very controversial, but we were patted on the head and told that
everything was going to be alright. And one of the provisions in

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there was the people who fly into the back country. As you know
in Idaho, thats a big deal, and theres a number of back country
airports that have used for decades back there. Section 7(a)(1) of
the Central Idaho Wilderness Act states, the landing of aircraft
where this has use has become established prior to the date of enactment of this act shall be permitted to continue.
Im told the Payette National Forest supervisor has proposed
closing four of those air strips, so you might send a little memo
when you get back to your desk about that and maybe send him
a copy of the section because Im just a poor country lawyer, but
it seems to me, shall means shall. I know the Forest Service hates
getting sued, but this looks like one thats set up to be a lawsuit
if they proceed with that. I understand they may not want to do
it anymore, but the 1980 Act is pretty clear about that. So I would
appreciate it if youd have a look at that. Again, thanks for your
service. Thank you, Madam Chair.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Flake.
Senator FLAKE. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Chief.
Thanks for all you do for Arizona.
Weve talked before about this topic. We have the Eastern Forest,
the White Mountains, where I grew up, that weve had the White
Mountain Stewardship Contract. Its revitalized the private industry in that area and has done some good work. Weve seen about
$130 million in private investment flow in.
Senator Heinrich and I toured, last April, some of the facilities
and the mills and what not that are there because of the stewardship contract, and steps have been taken to give some kind of certainty moving ahead before 4FRI really kicks in.
Mr. TIDWELL. Right.
Senator FLAKE. Theres that gap that we know was there, but
were still hearing from private industry, a couple of them in particular, that they just dont have the certainty moving ahead that
theyre going to be able to get their product out of the forest.
What is the Forest Service doing to give them the assurance that
theyll be able to continue? As you know if we lose private industry
this time, well never get it back. Well just never get the investment there, and thats the only way that we can get these forests
thinned and managed the way they should be.
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Senator, with the 4FRI area wereI think
they have just under the 4FRI contract, they have, I think, close
to 19,000 acres that weve issued task orders on that. So theres
plenty of work for them to do.
Were also getting close to be able to address the objections that
we received on the EIS that cover about a million acres of your
state and will allow us to be able to go forward and do the level
of restoration on that type of landscape for many years in the future.
In addition to that to address the concern, theres also about
25,000 acres thats outside of the 4FRI and were going to put up
another 6,000 acres this year. I know it was really tight, especially
last year, to be able to provide at the same time removing the 4FRI
to be able to support the industry had come in. With this additional
work that were putting forward this year it should put us in a
much better place.

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Then as we move forward and once again, the additional hazardous fuels funding that we received in FY 15 will allow us to be
able to put up more sales and not just for 4FRI but for also the
other parts of your state that we need to move forward with. So
that level of funding is going to be verywell, the timing was excellent on it and were requesting that same level again so we can
be able to have, kind of, a stable program across the country.
So were going to be in a better position this coming year than
we were in the past and to be able to continue to provide the work
that needs to be done and to keep people employed.
Senator FLAKE. With regard to 4FRI since FY 13 there have
been notices to proceed of about 21,000 acres, but only just north
of 3,000 acres have actually been treated. Whats the next milestone for the task orders with and what criteria are we using to
judge these contractors? They just dont seem to be moving.
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, each task order, I mean, it has a certain
amount of time to be able to start the work and be able to implement it. At the same time the 4FRI contractor, I think, they too,
were waiting to see if we were able to get this EIS done, this large
EIS, to give them the confidence that they can make the additional
investments.
If theyre not able to get the work done well be able to offer
these contracts to others who will be able to get the work done. You
have to give an adequate amount of time, but if theyre not able
to perform on that or if theyre not able to keep up with the level
of work that were putting out, well be able to contact with others.
So we want to be able to not only get themake 4FRI successful,
but at the same time to be able to have enough work on the landscape and also to use more of these stewardship, these long-term
contracts, that have proven to be a success. I mean, your state was
probably our early model about the difference that we can make.
You personally have seen the difference on the ground, but also the
investments that are in place were because of that.
We have to be able to maintain that, so were going to do whatever it takes to, not only keep 4FRI going forward, but at the same
time to be able to get more work available so that we can maintain
that infrastructure that came in initially with our first stewardship
contract there.
Senator FLAKE. Just one quick question in terms of overall priorities and budget.
In 2014 there was an A&E story about USFS that you had abandoned a $10 million initiative to hire an outside firm with a five
year strategic organizational transformation or branding management contract, and Im glad to see that that was abandoned. I
would hope that we dont see that kind of money. Thats big figures, a $10 million contract.
I know there are other contracts, smaller ones, for rebranding of
the Department. I would think the best rebranding is for the Department to do as you have been in many areas, move forward and
be able to treat these forests. Thats a lot better than a $10 million
project paid to an outside public relations firm to rebrand the Forest Service.
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Senator, it was never about rebranding. The
purpose of the contract which was guaranteed for one year was to

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help us find ways to strengthen our connection with communities
because we found, as youve seen in some of your communities,
where weve been able to come together. We can resolve a lot of the
issues, bring people together in a way to be able to move forward
with the work.
We dont have that everyplace across the country, so part of this
was to strengthen our connection and to help people understand all
of the multiple use that comes with their national forests. There
are times that I meet with a lot of people and theyre really interested in promoting their use, but at times it gets a little lonely
when it comes to multiple use because thats our challenge.
So part of it is to be able to strengthen our connection with communities, but also to let people understand all the benefits that
come from their national forests and to also understand this concept of multiple use and the benefits that they receive from our forests.
So I appreciate your comments on that. Were not moving forward with that contract. Were going to take a different approach
on how to strengthen our connection with communities.
Senator FLAKE. Alright. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. I just might add that if youre looking to strengthen the connection to communities you should be listening to some of these comments from colleagues here about the
ways that the Forest Service puts a hand out and says, no, dont
come in here unless you have the appropriate permit. Whether its
a day care provider in Wrangel or whether its the kayaker in Seattle or in New Mexico.
If were trying to get young people onto our lands its one thing
if you take the fourth graders in and you give them a great field
trip, but if they cant come back with their families without having
the right kind of a permit, I dont think we need to have a campaign to do that. I think its simple common sense.
Lets go to Senator Manchin, and then well go to a second round.
Senator MANCHIN. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
As you might know, West Virginia is proud to be the third most
forested state in the nation, close to 80 percent of the entire state
is forested. We have 12 million acres of beautiful mixed hardwoods
and softwoods. Timber production from these forests are critical to
our states economy, but they are equally important for providing
the clean water, outdoor recreation, hunting, fishing and all the
other uses that we enjoy.
Importantly 87 percent of our forest land is privately owned
while only 13 percent is publicly owned. So east of the Mississippi
we dont understand the BLM and all the things that go with it
and all the challenges our friends out West may have. The largest
expanse of public land is Monongahela National Forest, the fourth
largest national forest in the Northeast and one of the most ecologically diverse forests in the entire National Forest system. Were
also proud of our beautiful forests and the forest management practices that we have enjoyed working with you, so I appreciate that
very much.
My question to you, sir, is that Governor Tomblin, from the State
of West Virginia, requested a designation of Monongahela National
Forest as an insect and disease epidemic area citing a number of

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insects and diseases impacting that area. I think youre well aware
of that. In May of last year you designated that requested area.
Could you provide an update to me on the efforts to address these
issues and how the agency is using its expedited authorities to get
more done on the ground? If you could give me a brief on that, Id
appreciate that.
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Senator, youre referring to the designation
of areas where we need to use the insectwhat we call the insect
and disease authority from the Farm bill. So the first thing was
that to get to work with the governors to get their recommendations which we were able to do that. And then last year we designated, I think, close to 40over 45 million acres across the country. It gives us the opportunity to use these expedited procedures
when it comes to doing EAs and EISs where we only will have to
look at like one action alternative and then a no action alternative.
And where weso many places we have these strong collaborative groups come together. Folks understand what type of work
needs to be on the landscape. And so, by just having to deal with
maybe one, at most, two action alternatives, it will save time in the
analysis. It will allow us to be able to move forward faster.
Then the other key part of this is also to have the categorical exclusion where we can look at up to 3,000 acres at a time and be
able to use the CE to be able to cover that decision. Last year when
the bill was passed, which I cannot thank you enough for that, we
had our program of work in place for 14. And it had, often, a lot
of our planning started for 15. But as we now move forward to
start to do the planning for projects that well be implementing
later this year and early next year, well be able to talk about specific examples to how using these new authorities. Its one of the
things that I look at whats going to really help us to be more effective, look at larger landscapes. Once again to be able to reduce the
amount of analysis and the amount of time that we have to spend
to be able to implement which in most cases is what people want
to see done on the ground.
Senator MANCHIN. Heres a follow up question. Chief Tidwell,
your budget proposes a small reduction to total funding for R and
D, research and development. But due to a $13 million proposed increase in the forest inventory and analyst program, the budget
would ultimately reduce funding for other R and D programs by
$17 million from your FY2015. Can you tell me what kind of impact this reduction will have on R and D programs and how it may
affect my great State of West Virginia?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Senator, working under a constrained budget
we have to make some tough decisions.
Senator MANCHIN. Sure.
Mr. TIDWELL. And be able to move forward with the FIA thats
absolutely essential. There had to be some tradeoffs, so what well
be looking at in FY 16 is that some of our research we can slow
down, things that are more long term, that whether we continue
at this pace or we could actually slow down.
Theres also some of the work that is getting close to being completed on certain projects that we can identify. Well stop that. But
it will have a reduction in the level of research.

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Senator MANCHIN. What type of research and development would
affect, lets say states in the Northeast, West Virginia, maybe out
West too?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well it could, for instance, if we had a new species
or a new invasive
Senator MANCHIN. I just asked you about the species. What were
getting, is that going to affect what I justthe first question I
asked you about, the species we know is invading Monongahela,
the National Forest?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, the ongoing work that were dealing with
well want to continue to do that. But what could happen is if we
had another invasive come that just showed up tomorrow or if
something like Thousand Canker started to expand, were not probably going to be able to get into additional research onto that.
So there is going to be some consequences. Its one of the things
well look at what we can do by working with area universities and
others to be able to see how we can, kind of, minimize that impact
and see if we cant create some different partnerships on that. But
its just one of the consequences that we will have to slow down
some of our research in certain areas, but well do everything we
can to minimize the impact.
Senator MANCHIN. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Manchin.
Chief, I want to bring up the issue of Secure Rural Schools again
because in your response to the Senator from West Virginia, Senator Capito, I did not really hear what the proposal was.
Earlier in the hearing we had some folks from Petersburg here.
They were in my office yesterday. This is their biggest issue. Seven
percent of their communitys budget comes from Secure Rural
Schools funding. Last year they got $1.2 million under Secure
Rural Schools, but this year under the 25 percent proposal theyre
going to be down to $41,000. Clearly its rattled a small community
like that.
What funding source is the Administration looking to to use to
pay for the Secure Rural Schools extension? Then what I would
like to understand is how much timber would have to be cut and
sold on our national forests to fund the Administrations own Secure Rural Schools program?
Mr. TIDWELL. So our proposal is just part of the overall Presidents budget to provide that
The CHAIRMAN. So theres no pay for them for that. Its just included as part of the budget. What Im trying to get at, weve got
great interest, I think, from members of this Committee to find a
way to fund Secure Rural Schools. Do you have any proposals for
us in terms of how we can fund it? And if its not from timber receipts, how are we going to do it and what would those timber receipts be?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, all the receipts, the timber receipts, are going
to be part of the two hundredin our proposal theres $275 million
thats provided for the first year. I just want to stress its a framework, and we really want to work with the Committee about how
to put a reauthorization together on that. The timber receipts will
be part of that, but the challenge is

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The CHAIRMAN. How much a part of that?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, you see with under the 1908 Act the $50 million thats spread across. Thats about the level of funding that you
see available. You know, the other partand so it takeswere
going to continue to provide, you know, the receipts as part of Secure Rural Schools funding. So, those
The CHAIRMAN. But we dont know how much those receipts are
or is it the $50 million?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, $50 million, what was available under the 25
percent of the receipts.
The CHAIRMAN. Right.
Mr. TIDWELL. You know, theres about $125 million total that
could be potentially made available, but there will have to be additional funding just like there has been for like the last what, 15
years, under Secure Rural Schools.
The CHAIRMAN. So, okay, theres $125 million potentially that is
available to fund Secure Rural Schools. But were only going to use
$50 million of it?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, under the 1908 Act
The CHAIRMAN. Okay.
Mr. TIDWELL. With 25 percent.
The CHAIRMAN. Right.
Mr. TIDWELL. Thats what it equates to.
The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask about the recreation activities and
how much they actually generate in terms of receipts. Which recreation activities are shared under the 25 percent payments? And if
you dont know thatwhat Im trying to understand is what receipts from activities from our national forests are coming in and
just an understanding as to how much is coming in and where its
coming in from?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Senator, we can provide you a breakdown of
each activity that generates receipts and how much thatwe expect that to be, you know, in FY 16.
The CHAIRMAN. Okay.
Mr. TIDWELL. And the majority of it will come from, you know,
from timber harvest. But the point that
The CHAIRMAN. If you could get us a breakdown that lays this
out, I think that that would be helpful. Ive got a whole bunch of
other questions, and I know that Senator Heinrich wanted to go
another round here.
The 2008 amended Forest Plan for the Tongass does not contain
a renewable energy plan. As you and I discussed as we were flying
over the Tongass, in order to deal with the high cost of energy in
Southeast, hydro is the cheapest, most available and renewable resource. But its frustrated. Its complicated because of the roadless
rule down there. I believe, pretty strongly, that we need to have a
renewable energy plan in the amendment to the Tongass plan the
Forest Service is now considering.
I received a letter yesterday directed to Forrest Cole, your forest
supervisor in the Tongass, that outlines why this is an imperative.
I want to make sure that is available to you. This is something, as
important as it is to help with our struggling industry there in
Southeast, our communities cant survive if we dont have affordable energy and the blessing in that part of the country is that the

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affordable energy is a renewable energy. If our own policies are
limiting or blocking our ability to either build that hydro facility
or build transmission lines, we cant achieve that.
Im going to make sure that youve got a copy of this letter and
hope that you all are working aggressively to make sure that weve
got a renewable energy plan within the amended Forest plan.
Okay?
Ill turn to Senator Heinrich.
Senator HEINRICH. I want to thank you both for letting me go
next.
I want to ask you, Chief, about funding for recreational facilities.
Ive heard from communities like Pecos, New Mexico, who really
their businesses depend on hikers and fishermen and picnickers
driving through their town as their primary customer base, particularly in the summer months. In the last few years weve seen
a campground, a trail head, and several picnic and fishing areas
in the Santa Fe National Forest all closed due to a lack of operations and maintenance funds. The small businesses in the nearby
communities have really been hit hard by that.
Does your budget include increased resources for recreational facilities and what else can we do to make sure that these facilities
stay open so that the public lands stay public?
Mr. TIDWELL. Our budget request asked for an additional $33
million to deal with some deferred maintenance around recreational facilities and also with our trails which will be a start on
really what we need to address.
Once again, weve got to find a way that we can continue to respond to the publics needs to provide the level of service. Our
fullproposal, that is something else we need to discuss about the
reauthorizing that. It does help us out of the 14,000 rec sites that
we have across the country.
Theres about 4,000 of those where we collect fees that we retain
and are able to use on site. We keep 95 percent of that on site, so
thats one of the tools. The other thing, we need to continue to look
for ways to work with businesses, with our concessionaires to find
ways to be able to offset the costs of operating. Weve also had
some success with communities, especially when a facility is close
to the community, the community can take it on as just part of
being able to maintain that and keep it safe and operating.
So were going to have to use all of those tools, but theres just
no question this is an area that the public expects a higher level
of service. They want to see these facilities.
And Ill tell you its really difficult when we have to look at closing a facility when we can no longer afford to keep it open and safe.
Senator HEINRICH. Yeah, I would agree. Chief, this sounds like
a joke, but its really not. Do you know why the fish crossed the
road? Its usually because the Forest Service put in a culvert or
some other aquatic species crossing device, but the number of those
has gone down precipitously in recent budget years. Particularly
with the changes were seeing in climate, the ability for our fisheries, particularly in cold weather fisheries in states like New Mexico, to be able to move up and down through the watershed in response to those changes is really limited by that infrastructure.
Weve seen that drop from, I think it was close to 600 crossings

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funded in 2010 down to 275 in 2012, 168 in FY2014. This is troubling. I wanted you to address it.
Mr. TIDWELL. Once again it just reflects the consequence of going
from 14 percent to over 40 percent of our budget into dealing with
the cost of fires. We are asking for some additional funding in our
Integrated Resource Restoration that will allow us to do work on
about 3,200 miles of streams which is often to address these culverts, but its a tremendous backlog.
The thing that adds to it is that 20 years, 30 years ago the culverts that we were putting in place were of a certain size. Today,
with the change in the weather, the change in the climate were
seeing that often these culverts are undersized. And so whether we
get a rain on snow event or in your country, in the, you know, the
late summer.
Senator HEINRICH. Monsoons.
Mr. TIDWELL. When we get the monsoons that were getting the
duration is in a case where were getting more of these culverts
blowing out. So its just another thing were dealing with with the
changing climate, and its going to be something were going to
have to address to be able to find ways to not only be able to address this for fish, but also to maintain the access.
Senator HEINRICH. Right.
Mr. TIDWELL. Because when we lose the culvert.
Senator HEINRICH. We lose the road.
Mr. TIDWELL. Not only do the fish lose, but then so does the public.
Senator HEINRICH. You bet. Last thing. Congress provided the
Forest Service $65 million in FY2015 to begin modernizing the
large aircraft tanker fleet. Whats the status there of the action
plan and business case analysis for the large tanker program and
when do you think youll be able to provide Congress with the action plan to spend that appropriation?
Mr. TIDWELL. With that specific appropriation weve actually contracted with a company to do the business case to expedite that
process. Im hoping to have that completed in May, and well submit that into clearance. Then hopefully by later this year well be
able to have that discussion about whats the best way to move forward with acquiring additional aircraft.
In addition with what were doing with the next generation, we
expect to have, probably, around 24 large air tankers operating this
year plus our MAFFS units from the air force and air reserves. So
were going to be in a good position this year. Well also be starting
to bring on the C130Hs that well begin to transfer. Were hoping
to have the first one that we can start to use late this year, and
then it will probably be in 2017 when they come on. But this potential new aircraft would help, basically replace one of those C
130Hs that have a very limited life span for us.
Senator HEINRICH. Great. Thank you, Madam Chair.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cantwell.
Senator CANTWELL. Thank you.
Chief Tidwell, I learned recently that the Forest Service entered
into a MOU, a memorandum of understanding, with the Biomass
Power Association to expand wood energy use in the U.S. This is
something thats very interesting to me. Obviously there are com-

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munities in our country that use wood pellets and they can come
from smaller trees and debris and things of that nature. Obviously
collection is an issue and getting them to market.
Older, non-EPA certified wood stoves are considerable polluters,
but new EPA-certified wood stoves dont even produce smoke. So
this is a big opportunity to move forward. Separately I know EPA
is revising how it will count emissions from woody biomass in its
framework, and this framework can determine how biomass can be
used to comply with the Clean Air Act regulations. Could you tell
me about your participation in that and also about the MOU and
what you hope to accomplish from that?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well a couple things will come out of the MOU.
First of all, theres active competition between folks that make
wood stoves to actually produce the most efficient stoves, but also
to minimize any emissions. The advances that have been made in
that technology is tremendous over the years from what it used to
be. So thats one of the things we expect will come out of this is
basically a product that will not only meet any air standards but
also be even more efficient.
The second part of that is that were going to continue our work
to provide loans and grants to help folks design facilities. Senator
Murkowski, in your state were working with some of your communities to provide that upfront money to be able to do the design to
be able to put facilities into place so that we can use this renewable
energy. So its not just for wood stoves but our program also wants
to look at more of the commercial facilities, our schools, potentially
hospitals and also look at our buildings so that we could be able
to model this.
Another key part of this is with the Farm bill we have the authority to be able to subsidize the transportation of biomass. Thats
still the economic problem of biomass is getting it to where it could
be used either to a facility to convert it into pellets or to haul it
to a CoGen plant, etcetera. So we do have that authority. Well continue to use it. We used it last year in California on the rim fire
project.
So those are the variety of tools that were using to really expand
the use of wood. Its not the solution, but its renewable. Its green
energy.
But its just another thing that we need to look at, because this
biomass needs to be removed from our forests. The saw logs, thats
the easy part. But theres a lot of other smaller diameter material
and some of it we can put it into some of the advanced wood products that are available on the market today but theres also a need
to use this residual material.
We have a project actually in Southern Colorado where we provided some initial funding for this project to get it started, and we
expect now that its probably going to save us $1 million a year because it provides a use of this material verses having to pay somebody to pile it and burn it to remove it. And so those are the things
we want to continue to build on but having efficient, emission free,
wood stoves is one of the things we hope to get out of this agreement.
Senator CANTWELL. Well I think the fact that those wood stoves
are a game changer, and there are new products on emissions. I

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think we should look more deeply at this. When I look at the
Northeast and so many homes are still on home heating oil and
paying exorbitant prices or visiting Alaska with my colleague here
and seeing the exorbitant prices, I just keep thinking theres got to
be a better solution.
Wood pellets, as you said, it is a green source of energy and certainly would be cheaper. And I know that in some non-attainment
areas in parts of the United States communities have worked harder to transfer out these inefficient wood stoves and put in new
ones. Those are the kinds of programs I think we should look at.
I have a related question. My colleague from New Mexico made
me realize when we had the Carlton Complex Fire we had this
question. There was a long delay on getting access to drones as a
way to help us with that fire. What do we need to do to get the
Department of Homeland Security to give the Forest Service the
access and the authority to share drones to help us in fire fighting
awareness on our forests?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, were working with Homeland Security, also
the FAA, to look into being able to use drones.
Weve had a couple situations where working with the state, with
the Air National Guard, weve actually been able to use drones on
fires. We did in California a couple years ago, and it provided excellent intelligence. It actually identified a place in the fire where it
crossed the line, but because of the heavy smoke cover we were not
able to see it. But the drone was able to pick that up.
It was just a perfect example ofits a tool that were going to
be moving forward to be able to use, but its something that needs
to be done in a way so that it can be done safely with conjunction
of all the other air activity on fires. And at the same time to address the publics concerns about the use of these drones on fires.
So its going probably take us a little while before were able to
have everything in place. But when we have the opportunity, especially working with the states to be able to use the military aircraft
from time to time, its one of the things well probably continue to
do in the near term.
Senator CANTWELL. I hope that you will get an agreement with
them because, to me, this is good information to have. When you
think about some of these fires that do blow up and the challenges
that weve had in the past, having that kind of data would be very,
very helpful.
Mr. TIDWELL. Yes.
Senator CANTWELL. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, the issue of drones is a really interesting
one. I believe it was the Funny River fire in Alaska where
Mr. TIDWELL. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. It was very, very helpful in terms of being able
to target the drops. I have got a couple questions about young
growth and then one on filming on public lands.
With this transition to young growth that the Administration
continues to speak about, you have stated that its going to be necessary to export the young growth logs outside of the United States
to other countries instead of processing them at the mills in Alaska
and that export is going to have to be part of the transition to
young growth timber in order for it to be economic. Tell me how

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exporting the young growth trees would help our struggling saw
mills? How does this actually make the transition to young growth
work? We are trying to figure out how you transition to young
growth so that the Industry in Southeast Alaska stays alive. But
if youre sending all the product overseas youre not going to be
able to sustain these communities. So I dont see how it works.
Again, I have been very skeptical during this hearing, and I
think you can sense my frustration, but this is yet another example
of where I am not seeing the contribution to the local community
here.
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Senator, I wish we didnt have to export any
logs out of Southeast Alaska. Its my understanding to make,
whether its the old growth sales or second growth sales, economically viable that we have to allow for some export to occur. And it
will be done based on the market, etcetera. Ideally if we could actually keep all that wood in Southeast Alaska and have it the facilities
The CHAIRMAN. This isnt your idea that this is a good thing to
export? You appreciate that part of what we are trying to do here
is figure out how we can keep these smaller operators going and
that you do that through ensuring available product is available in
these communities.
Mr. TIDWELL. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Not necessarily sending it out of the country.
Let me ask about the issue of retooling. Back in July of 13 the
Secretary of Agriculture issued this memorandum that outlined the
goal to transition from the old growth to the second growth. In his
memo he says were going to pursue opportunities to facilitate investments in retooling and to develop by December 31 of 2013, in
collaboration with rural development and other stakeholders, a
plan for providing financial assistance to retool timber processing
equipment in Southeast Alaska to assist the industry to handle
youth growth timber.
That plan was due December 31 of 13. The question to you is
where is the plan that the Secretary asked for and what, if anything, can you point to within this budget on retooling financial assistance to help the small industry in Southeastern Alaska make
the transition?
First, where is the plan and second where do we see the retooling
efforts in the budget?
Mr. TIDWELL. So its my understanding with the plan that it has
been different generations of that to address different issues working with rural development.
Im also aware of another issue thats come up that we werent
aware of. I think its the Credit Reform Act. I do not understand
all of it, but its my understanding that we may need to come to
you and ask for a reprogramming request to be able to provide the
funding that we want to be able to use on that retooling.
So Im going to need to get back to you on this that we may need
your help on a reprogramming request to be able to work with
rural development to be able to do this.
To retool that mill is essential, and I think the sooner we can be
able to move forward with that and work with the owners there to
be able to do it, it will help us to be prepared to be able to not only

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start using some second growth but to be prepared with the transition that will occur sometime in the future.
The CHAIRMAN. Okay, we need to talk about this, Chief, because
again, this was a directive that is now a year and a half stale.
There has been no plan developed, and now you are saying we need
to talk about reprogramming so that we can start doing some retooling. These are promises that were made, I think, in good faith,
fairly, that just simply have not been delivered on. In the meantime every time I go back home to Ketchikan or any of the communities in the region they are saying, okay, we havent been able to
do anything to keep our operators alive. On the other, the Administration has promised us retooling. We dont see either, so this is a
real tough spot for us. I think you know that. So you are either
going to have to help me figure out how we allow for an industry,
even a small industry, or what you are going to do to keep the
promise on the retooling because it is just not there. I will look forward to visiting with you on this. But this is something. Promises
made, promises not kept. So weve got to do better, Chief.
Lets go to Senator Franken.
Senator FRANKEN. Chief Tidwell, you and I have discussed the
devastating impact of climate change on wildfires previously.
Fighting wildfires costing a lot of money, about half your budget
and all that spending means that preventive measures such as hazardous fuels treatment is receiving less funding, right?
Mr. TIDWELL. Yes.
Senator FRANKEN. So Im very interested in exploring how we
can find new markets for forest waste in order to help pay for the
removal of hazardous fuels and simultaneously bring economic benefit to plants that can burn the waste. For example, in my State
of Minnesota the District Energy of St. Paul was recently recognized for its leadership in using wood waste to generate heat and
electricity for downtown St. Paul while providing its customers
with stable and competitive energy prices and at the same time reducing CO2 emissions. It seems to me the District Energy projects
and combined heat and power plants are an ideal market for hazardous fuels, particularly ones that are located near our forests.
Chief Tidwell, can you describe what your energy is doing on
such bio-based energy efforts and can you also tell us what needs
to be done to encourage more facilities to get involved in that
arena?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Senator, were continuing to make investments in the technology itself with our research scientists to be
able to look at how to increase the efficiency, especially in pellets,
to make them not only more durable, but actually increase the
BTUs. But by doing that it expands the use. It also makes it more
efficient.
The other part of it is to find ways to be able to defer the transportation costs because thats usually the limiting factor. If we
have the biomass material at the facility, economically it makes
good sense to use it. But its to be able to find a way to deal with
the transportation. So looking at the benefits of chipping a material
in the woods and then hauling it out that way is some of the things
were using. Were alsocontinuing to make loan money and in
some cases grant money available, especially through all the USDA

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programs to help provide the funding to do the designs. So it helps
communities if they want to put a facility in place then heres some
funding to help pay for the design, do the feasibility study, so that
they can see if they make the investment that, over time, theyre
actually going to break even on it through the use of wood.
The other key part of it is to provide the source. In your case
theres a lot of wood available off of private lands and county lands,
but also in certain parts of your state the wood that comes off the
national forest is also essential. So its a combination of continuing
to improve the technology, providing a reliable source of material
and then looking at ways to be able to address the transportation
costs.
It may mean looking at multiple facilities and maybe less large
facilities thatand you have to factor in the economics of that. But
those are the things were going to continue to work on because we
need to make use of this material. Not only is it a green energy
source, but also we need to remove the biomass one way or another.
Senator FRANKEN. Yeah.
Mr. TIDWELL. And so weve got to find a way to use this material
instead of piling it up, burning it in cases which just costs more
money. It makes more sense to be able to haul it to a facility and
to use it.
We just had a discussion about wood stoves and the competition
thats occurring to create the most fuel efficient, the most emission
free wood stove to create, you know. And theres a market for that.
But thats another thing thats going on.
Granted thats just in homes, but every little piece will help. So
its not just what we can do in homes, but also in businesses. And
we have numerous examples across the country where we put these
facilities in and in many cases, the business has been able to pay
off their investment in a matter of years because of their energy
cost savings.
Senator FRANKEN. Well, thank you. I see my time is about to expire, so Ill submit a question for the record. Thank you, Madam
Chair.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Senator Hoeven.
Senator HOEVEN. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
Chief Tidwell, good to see you. Thanks for your previous visits
to North Dakota.
I guess my first question is before you finalize the EA for the update to the management plan for our lotees on the grasslands in
North Dakota are you going to be back in North Dakota? Wed certainly like to see you again. Any chance youll be back?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Senator, Ill look at my schedule. I appreciate
the times that Ive been able to be up there with you and also the
time I worked up there in the past. Those meetings, Ive felt, have
always been helpful to not only for me to understand, continue to
understand the issues, but also the challenges youre facing up
there.
Senator HOEVEN. Youve been good about coming. I think theres
some concerns on the part of our ranchers and grazers as far as
your draft EA. And so both in terms of their input, some of the specific recommendations they have and input from North Dakota

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State University Range Science, I need to understand how youre
going to take those comments and concerns into consideration in
going from the draft to a final EA. And I think it would be good
if youre back to talk about that before you finalize the EA.
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, we look at the comments from the university
along with the comments from everyone else plus the other science
thats available, and its all factored into those decisions. I understand weve made some progress, you know, in resolving some of
the issues, but there still is this concern about the biological capable areas.
Senator HOEVEN. Right.
Mr. TIDWELL. As to which areas the grass can actually grow tall
enough to have the stubble height that wed like to see for some
of the upland game species. So thats the thing.
Its going to continue to look at the science that the universities
provide and the science that we have from our scientists, the work
thats been done with NRCS and the comments from the ranchers.
Im going to remain optimistic that we can find a way through on
this because theres definitely areas where folks agree that its biologically capable, but theres also some areas where we have this
disagreement and a lot of that is something we dont have to continue to look on and work on.
I also think theres some flexibility here to be able to look at
these areas and to be able to go out there and just monitor it too
because theres may be some that its right on the edge. Depending
on years it may work, it may not. But Im going to remain optimistic that if we can just understand areas were in agreement and
then areas where theres disagreement and then go and take a look
at those areas and just see what it will take for us to be able to
reach agreement on that and to be able, then, to monitor it because
were in this for the long term.
Senator HOEVEN. Can we look at getting you out to have that
discussion with our grazers and the NDSU Range Scientists and
your folks before you issue the final EA? Because I think that
would be a good discussion so that our people can get a sense of
where youre going and what that flexibility is before you finalize
that EA?
Mr. TIDWELL. Ill check to see what the schedule is on completing
that EA and my schedule, and if theres any way I can get up there
Ill do it.
Senator HOEVEN. Okay. Lets see if we can make that happen.
Itd be great. I think itd be helpful.
The other question is on controlled burns. What measures are
you taking to make sure that youre taking proper precautions to
coordinate with people on the ground who live, work, ranch, graze,
farm, in the area before youre doing any controlled burns on forest
lands?
Mr. TIDWELL. Well its essential that we, before we even plan to
do a prescribed burn that we, not only go through our public comment process, but were also taking the time to meet with our cooperators, meet with the community, so that folks understand what
were trying to get done here, factor in their concerns, you know,
make sure were using all the information that we need to have to
ensure that when we are in prescription to be able to carry out the

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48
burn under the conditions where it can be controlled, that we have
all the information thats needed.
In your case that we need additional weather information. And
if were relying on it from one state or one area we may have to
recognize we need additional information. And if that means putting up some portable weather stations ahead of time thats the
sort of thing we need to do to make sure that we can continue to
use the tool. But at the same time to do everything we can to make
sure that we do not have the situation where we have a fire, a
burn, a prescribed burn, that it gets out of prescription and impacts private land, destroys facilities. Its the last thing we want
to do.
Senator HOEVEN. Yeah, and again, Id really urge you to emphasize to your people that are out on the ground, that local coordination, working with those folks. I understand there may be different
considerations when youre actually working in forests, but we are
grasslands. That is different, and so anything and everything you
can do to coordinate with the locals I think is very important.
Thanks, Chief.
The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cantwell, do you have any additional
questions?
Senator CANTWELL. No.
The CHAIRMAN. Chief, if I may, just ask one final question? I
have hinted at this throughout this mornings conversation, and
this is relating to filming on public lands.
I have been at a couple of different venues, one inside the state,
one outside the state, and I thought that I would be asked questions about hunting and fishing and sportsmens issues but what
it came back to was just this hue and cry over filming on public
lands. It ties in with what we have heard from Senator Heinrich
and Senator Cantwell here in terms of public access and just understanding what the rules are on our public lands.
It would seem to me that the law on commercial filming that we
passed in Congress in 2000 is being grossly misconstrued and applied in a way that really limits or restricts or sometimes outright
denies access to our public lands. The folks that I am talking to,
these are not big movie producers. These are a couple people, three
people, film crews. They have cameras. They have hand held video
equipment. They are not disturbing the landscape. They are basically going in and taking these beautiful pictures that allow people
who would otherwise not be able to access these amazing lands an
opportunity to see it. The frustration, I think, is that in some
places they are being allowed access and others they are not.
Now I understand that you are planning on issuing a new directive on commercial filming in wilderness areas. I dont know if its
this month or how soon its coming up, but can you give me a heads
up in terms of what this directive will actually allow, particularly
as it relates to individuals and small film operations? We are working together on a proposal in the context of the sportsmens bill
that would exempt a diminimus number of people who would be
engaging in filming on our Forest Service lands. What do you think
about something like this?
I need to understand a little bit more from your perspective
where the Forest Service is going on filming.

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Mr. TIDWELL. Well, were going to move forward with taking the
comments and all the meetings weve had across the country to put
forward a proposal on how and when, for commercial filming, in
wilderness. Because of the Wilderness Act that restricts or limits
commercial activities we need to have a system in place so its consistent across the board for when it comes to commercial filming
in wilderness.
And really, what is commercial filming? You know, in the past,
its the movies, the Hollywood movies, definitely it is a commercial
film. But theres a lot of other thingstoday people go out and take
pictures. You never had to have a permit for that before. Dont
have to have a permit for it now. So this is all about commercial
filming in wilderness. But what did come out of the discussions we
had across the country was a lot of questions around this. And that
weve never charged for somebody to take a picture.
The CHAIRMAN. I hope we are not planning on it.
Mr. TIDWELL. No, were not.
The CHAIRMAN. Okay.
Mr. TIDWELL. We never have nor would we. This is about commercial filming, and really the permit is to address the requirements under the Wilderness Act to be able to put in place; these
are the opportunities we have for commercial filming in wilderness.
Theres a lot of other places you can go film, but certain things.
We have situations where people want to film in wilderness and
they want to carry the story about wilderness, whether its wilderness ethic or the importance of wilderness. We feel that that fits
in fine.
If its a Hollywood production that could be filmed someplace else
verses being in a wilderness well probably say, hey, heres another
landscape. Go film over here.
The CHAIRMAN. What about this diminimus idea? So you have a
few guys. Lets just say for discussion you have three folks and
they are carrying all their gear on their back and they are hiking
in?
Mr. TIDWELL. If its for a commercial filming and this is one of
the things were working on. Were actually working with the industry to come up with some clear definitions of just what commercial filming is. Its something were going to have to address to be
able to find what is the right approach to be able to do that, because youre right, today from when we put these procedures in
place in, what was it? 2000? When the bill was? Well today the
equipment most of the time, its something like this.
The CHAIRMAN. Yeah, this, on a stick, maybe.
Mr. TIDWELL. Yeah, exactly. And so it really changes the concern
about impact on the ground because youre not looking at large film
crews in a lot of cases when somebody wants to do a commercial
film when they can use the equipment thats either on their hand
or on their shoulder at the most. So thats the thing that were trying to work through this.
The CHAIRMAN. So
Mr. TIDWELL. This is just about wilderness and wilderness only.
The CHAIRMAN. Okay. So when do you anticipate that this directive is going to be out?
Mr. TIDWELL. Ill get back to you on that date.

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The CHAIRMAN. You mean, like, soon or a month?
Mr. TIDWELL. Its going to be this year.
The CHAIRMAN. This year? Okay.
The CHAIRMAN. So again, I hope the direction you are taking recognizes that it is not necessarily big Hollywood crews, that there
is a distinction when you go out with this small equipment. I would
think that we would have an allowance within our public lands and
a recognition that this is not the type of activity that we want to
preclude. I appreciate what you are saying about the differences
between wilderness areas and non-wilderness areas, but again,
there has to be some level of consistency out here. What I am hearing from folks is there is none right now. It is more than confusing,
and it makes folks really angry.
I think we have to get this right. And Im thinking that if youve
got small operators using this small equipment and youre, I dont
know, you mentioned drones, Senator Cantwell. There is some really great video footage of the Tongass that was taken by these little
drones you can get at Best Buy and put your camera on it with
your GoProyou get some pretty amazing shots.
I am sure hoping that we are not going to be telling people that
we cant do that without a permit.
Mr. TIDWELL. Well, Senator, weve had this interim directive out,
I think, for four or five years. And we did have two or three situations where it was applied inconsistently which makes the case for
why we need to have very clear direction to all of our offices about
how to approach this.
And also what is commercial? And thats where weve had some,
I think, some very productive meetings with the industry where
theyve really helped provide some additional insight about how to
do this in a way that will make sense to them. And so thats where
a lot of the comments that weve received have come directly from
those and a lot of public comments too. But because of that work
and the meetings weve held across the country with industry on
this that I feel well be able to move forward in a way with something that works, that its clear and people wont have to worry
about when they need a permit or not. It will be very clear for
those that do need it around this concept of commercial and wilderness.
Thats the thing were moving forward to. And Im optimistic,
based on the comments in the meetings that I have had with some
of the folks, that well be in a much better place than the interim
directive weve been following in the past. This will be improved.
It will be easier, and it will be better.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, I hope so because I do not think it does the
Forest Service any good
Mr. TIDWELL. Yeah.
The CHAIRMAN. To see top of the fold headlines in the Juneau
Empire about the Forest Service banning the use of photographs or
photographers in the Tongass. That is not good for you. It creates
confusion.
Mr. TIDWELL. Its never happened. It never will.
The CHAIRMAN. Okay, with that I appreciate the time that you
have given the Committee this morning. I think you got a whole
host of issues placed in front of you.

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I would like to talk to you a little bit more about some of the
things we discussed here this morning, but I think you can hear
the continuing concern and frustration from the people of the
Tongass as we try to live in an area where we are a hundred percent surrounded by our nations largest national forest.
Mr. TIDWELL. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. And not much room to move around. So thank
you and I thank my Ranking Member this morning.
[Whereupon, at 12:12 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

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