·..............

-~
~-~
--OS _ ~--:-' 1iJ _ _ ?t...,~ __
5o . . .-.

16 cutting-edge performance artists discuss a wide rang f opic. from

menstruation, masturbation, vibrators, S&M and spanking to racism, .aiied
Utopias and the death of the Sixties. Armed ith otal con mpt f d gm
stereotype and c iche, thes creative visionaries pr be deep into ur soe:rlaJ=;==:tJ
foundation of aboos, be iefs an tota itarian linguistic n radiet.·onis t'1~~'.!'~r:L_"':"':;'HI
whence spring (as well s thwart) our theories, imaginings, behavior and

"This is hardly the nu urin , womanist vision esp used in he ISBN 1-890451-05-3
19705. The view here is largely pro-sex, pro-porn, and ro-
choi e. Separatism ·5 out, commu ity in. A

efini el anger us 0 I f su rsi n! "-M

nd ctivism re
inseparab e from lif and b °ng."-Th Village Voice
"T es wom -p e t ag nts for cui al de t biliz tion are
0 2000
Ilill
. --~ .

.- - --;
EoitOl;l: A. Juno & V. Yale
Prooucll(lIllilfana.<Jer: Elizabeth Borowski
Pro()uctioll d Pro"jiwuJillg: Anaheed Alani, Curt Gardner. Monique Gerard, ?vlason Jones,
Jennifer Sharpe, Suzanne Stackle, Noah Sternthal, Nick Strauss
Book De,lign: A. Juno
Condu/tallt: Ken Werner
Thankd to: Mindaugis Bagdon, Randy Koral, Ann LeClerc, Danilo J. Neri

AI uced in any manner or transmitted

by any means w atsoever, e ectronic or mec (inc uding photocopying, recording,
and internet posting, display or retrieval), without written permission of the publisher.

Editorial address for RE/Search Publications and Juno Books:

A. Juno
III Third Avenue, #IIG
ew York, NY 10003
tel: 212-388-9924, fax: 212-388-1151, e-mail: [email protected]

For a catalog send 6 stamps to:

e
Juno Books I powerHouse Books
180 Varick Street, Suite 1302
New York, NY 10014-4606
www.JunoBooks.com I www.powerHo

US BOOKSTORE alld ON-BOOKSTORE DlSTRIBUT

"
powerHouse Cultural Entertainment, Inc.
180 Vanck Street, Suite 1302
New York, NY 10014-4606
tel: 212 604 9074, fax: 212 366 5247, e-mail: [email protected]

U.K. DISTRIBUTION:
Turnaround
Unit 3, Olympia Trading Estate

ur
Coburg Road
London N22 6TZ, United Kingdom
tel: 0181 8293000, fax: 0181 881 5088, e-mail: [email protected]

ITALY DISTRIBUTIO
Logos Art sri
Via Curtatona 51£
41100 Modena Loc. Fossalta, Italy
tel: 05941 87 II, fax: 059 28 1687, e-mail: [email protected]

BE ELUX DISTRIBUTIO
ilsson & Lamm
Pampuslaan 212, Postbus 195
1380 AD Weesp, The etherlands

'01,029< 49<9<9, f=, 02 94494455, o-m.a, g.b~,@"a"oo':In. en.net

Cover Paintillg: Phoebe Glockner
Back CopeI' Photo: Chris Buck (of Carolee Schneemann)
Fi,."t Page Photo: Donna Ann McAdams (of Diamanda Galas)
Flower Borde,." Drawn by: Catherine Reuther
 • Introduction 4
6 DiamanJa Gauu •

• Annie Sprinkle 23
41 Karen Finley •

• Linda Montano 50

66 Carolee Schneemann •

• hell hookJ 78
98 Holly Hughu •

• Lydia Lunch 105

118 WaniJa Coleman •

• A vital Ronell 127

154 Kerr e3 Malley •
• Sapphire 163
177 KatlJY Acker •
• Valie Export 186
194 SUJie Bright •
• QuotatiOn<! 222
237 IniJex •
• PouonoUJ Flower 240
Border SymptomJ
 Allgry Womell is not just about women, but about the categorizations.
future survival of our planet. This project began with the Our society permits in its language abstract generaliza-
inquiry: "Which artists are most in tune with the times- tions which - unanalyzed, can be repressive, such as the
delving deeply into issues which concern us 1l0fl'?" Consis- glorification of"nature "which has been used to strait-jacket
tently, women performance artists seemed most perceptive women. Women have always been considered more at-
(and poetic) in their criticism of social and political tuned to, or akin to "nature" -somehow inherently more
inequities; in their radical public disclosure of personal "nurturing" or "instinctual." Yet this e,lJelltinlillll of nature
humiliation, pain and injustice (an act of catharsis which grafted onto Woman is a subordinating fantasy- "nature"
benefits society); and in their calls for a new consciousness is a hornet's nest of human projections. A "mothering,
which for the first time would integrate political action, nurturing" female lioness will also tear apart anything that
cutting-edge theory, linguistic reconstruction, adventur- comes near her cubs-so if that's projected onto women,
ous sexuality, humor, spirituality and art toward the dream doesn't that mean they'd also be great warriors?
of a,locietyJJj.ju.Jti.ce. The gay and lesbian community are pioneers in challeng-
umanity is clearly on a suicide course -and taking the ing this concept of "nature " in that they are playing with the
rest of the planet with it. One has to be in an insane state of FiXed biological gender identities of "man" and "woman"
denial to not acknowledge that we're in an absolute ecolog- which our society has deemed sacred and untouchable.
ical, economic and moral crisis. Our inherited patriarchal, Identity - the concept ofthe Sel f - has become more flexible
hierarchical system is breaking apart from within -reveal- and open to multiplicity as people escape the tyranny of
ing underlying, foundational flaws. We can no longer do unevolved, "instinctual" drives. Today, with the overpopu-
just a "patch-up" job on our problems; we have to totally lation crisis, the old "duty" to be fruitful and populate the
reaJJ&f,l how we as human beings have been tricked into earth is JlIiciJaL Under these circumstances, humans are
participating in (and perpetuating) systems of domination exercising their option to reinvent their biological destinies.
and oppression whose ultimate destination is self-annihila- Gays and lesbians are playing with different forms ofgender
tion. We're in an unprecedented state of emergency-and and role switching; they are exploring what it is to love
emergencies can provoke profound reassessments, drastic someone in the absence of a repmdllctil'e impemtil'e. The very
solutions ... perhaps even bring about the birth of a new act of subverting something so primal and fIxed in society
consciousness, a new language, and a new species. as one's gender role, can unleash a creativity that is truly
Thousands ofyears ago, Judeo-Christianity wiped out needed by society-like a shamanistic act.
the pantheon of colorful gods, goddesses and "nature Human inventiveness - the el'oll'ed human - has pro-
spirits," replacing them with a stern, white-bearded male duced techllology, which (following the dualism paradigm)
atriarch known as "God" -a concept which effectively has been constructed as implacably hostile toward nature.
invalidated woman's status as citizen and potential decision- Yet the key to self-development is invention and Creativi-,
maker in society. Then the patriarchal belief structure ty-humans have to freely reinvent themselves and their
implanted the notion of a mind//;ody,fput, which held that the social relations through play, theatricality, artifIce and
body was evil-the source of dangerous, lustful impulses technology. The old ideal of "going back to nature" implied
and desires which corrupted the mind. Identified with that technology was alien to humanity-not a product of
WOIIUlll, sensuality, pleasure, emotions, the Devil, animals, humanity's creativity. Yet technology is as "natural" as
and Mother Earth - the body was judged inferior and even anything humans create or invent. A silicon chip is just as
regarded with horror and self-loathing. Posited as the natural as a flint knife. (A further consequence of equating
"superior force" to Ju/;)itgate the body was the mind (reason, women with "nature" has been to discourage women from
logic, the "higher intellect," god-like science) which was entering the traditionally "male" domains oftechnology and
identified with mall. Out of this life-denying, pleasure- science-yetwhen they do, they can bring a fresh, energiz-
denying mindset sprang the archetype of the "logical, ing perspective. Theorists such as Avital Ronell or Donna
rationaL" scientific male expert - exemplified by the 1950's Haraway are rethinking technology's relation to culture,
nuclearphysicistwho, isolated in an ivory tower ofscientific with a radical feminist approach.
omnipotence, develops nuclear devices-unwilling to ac- There are many philosophic underpinnings to our cur-
knowledge the disastrous consequences of his research. rent crisis, not the least ofwhich is our hllL>ril-ourthinking
Our ecological crisis, from ocean pollution to the green- that humans are somehow outside (and superior to) the
house effect, is evidence of a blatant disregard for the body continuum of life. We are still ruled by religious dogmas
of our planet, just as the second-class status of women such as Christianity, which for centuries held that only
reflects the patriarchal system of contempt. humans (and ultimately, only white males) had souls-
This mindlbody split is sibling to a host of other women, "savages" and animals didn't (therefore we could
dualisms-binary oppositional pairings which are never enslave, kill, or experimenton them in laboratories without
equal, which always force a hierarchy: man/woman, white/ a qualm). In more ancient, animistic eras, every tree had a
black, straight/gay, primitive/civilized, self/other, new/ "tree spirit," every r'Ock had a "rock spirit" - no distinction
old. All dualisms are artificial and must be analyzed as part was made between the "animate" and the "inanimate"-
of a system of either/or thinking which imposes restrictive with the result that there was a conscious sense of"connect-

4
edness" to everything in the world. neled creativel -as dramatized b erformance artists
The Western idea ofthe autonomous, "individual" selfas such as Karen in ey. Anger can spark an re-invigorate; it
crystallized by Descartes, and which culminated in the can bring hope and energy back into our lives and mobilize
industrial revolution, forced a transition: from a more politically against the status quo. Could there have been a
animistic viewing of the universe as richly imbued with life, Civil Rights movement in the '60s without anger?
meaning, symbols and myths ... to the present material- We need a renaissance of hope which anger can bring-
isticconception that ourworld is basically"dead" -there no stuck as we are in the midst of an existential, angst-ridden
longer are any "pagan" spirits dwelling in rivers and trees. C1/!tllre ofcynicl.1II1 which has helped implant a widespread
\Vith this rationale we have been able to exploit and destroy attitude ofpassivity and submissive acceptance. (No longer
all things with impunity and arrogance. This reflects a are people habituated to create, but to consume -and desire
hubris and an ego expanded to an ultimate dea(Je/ld - people is escalated to such addictive thresholds that satisfaction
feel no connectedness or accountability to the earth, other remains forever out of reach.) All past subcultural revolts
species, or other humans. (Now we are reaching a point (rap, New Age, punk, the hippies, the beatniks, eta!) have
where our actions toward the environment have irrevers- been appropriated in the service of product marketing
iblydestructiveconsequences.) Yetthe ironyis: not only are strategy. Television commercials present post-punk, leath-
this hubris and ego murderous tothe diversity oflife on our er-clad, motorcycle-riding "rebels" whose mean-spirited
planet, but to 1M as well-when we believe we exist in a selflshness is equated with "sexiness."
meaningless, mechanistic universe, and are alienated from Yet the romantic Clint Eastwood myth of the nihilistic
our own bodies and the earth body (and the pleasure and male loner, unintegrated into society, who inflicts violence
joy they are capable of bringing), then our own bodies and in the name of some vague "justice" and then rides offalone
the earth become incapable of nurturing and sustaining w. into the sunset - in psychoanalytic terms this conjures up a
So when somebody like Annie Sprinkle dares to proclaim wounded, abused child unconsciously avenging his hurt
an unabashed love of the body and sexuality (which should ... who is not CiJILlciOIlJ enough to let that hurt and pain
be taken for granted) -i.mmedllzte!ythis inspires controversy emerge so it can be deal t with directly, and healed. That male
and hatchet-faced censorship. It is a puritanical perversion loner would actually feel reLieped if he would strip off that
that this society invests so much ofits energy and economic character armoring and be vulnerable -actually feel. Peo-
resources in prosecuting drugs and pornography (which ple in our society need that permission to !et.qo-it is very
only affect the individual) rather than restoring education, strenuous to constantly maintain the mask of being cool,
health care, and social welfare-or prosecuting the rea! cynical, uncaring and a loner-this is a very difficult act to
criminals, such as the S&L robber barons (which include sustain. (With overpopulation and the loss of our frontiers
the President's son), the Wall Street takeover tycoons, or on earth and in space, cooperation is no longer just an
Oliver North. option -it is a nec&.l.Jity if we are to survive.) Now there is a
We need an electric revitalization of our life force; a definite need in males to be able to relinquish the alienated,
reconnection to the world; a heightened conviction that we self-sufficient macho pose -w-ithout, however, lapsing into
can change life. For the cover of this book, and as a minor phoniness or mindlessness.
antidote tothe loss of rich and meaningful feminine mythol- One of the fundamental contributions of the Women's
ogy in our lives, we resurrected the image of the Medusa, M~ent was the realization that one cannot have a
updated with contemporary power icons. Reflective of the political change without revolutionizing each individual.
systematic destruction of matriarchal history by the patri- And that involves each individual's spirituality, personal
archy, the Medusa expresses angel: The complex, powerful and family relationships, and emotions - plus the ability to
pantheon of ancient goddesses such as Medusa, Juno and COll1l11l11zicate those emotions. All personal growth efforts
Artemis were reduced by their conquerors to narrow, and self-healing are an essential part of the philosophical
negative, fearsome creatures. Medusa's rage, embodied by remappin necessary for political change, so we can fully
seething snakes that turned men into stone, seems to be an deploy the imaginations we were born with. Weadmitthat
appropriate response to servitude. Anq:er is an emotion we don't want to see the world blown up; we are/or the
which must be reclaimed and legitimized as Woman's human species.
ri htful, health ex resslOn -an er can be a source of The feminist project of LilJeratwn for alI is enormous: it
power, stren an c ari as we as a creatipe orce. , involves a total rethinking and remaking of history, culture,
ecent y, when we began approaching people with our law, organized religion (preferably, its total abolishment),
title Angry Women, a number of women became very defen- psychoanalysis, and philosophy. (And all language which
sive and reacted negatively, "Oh, I'm not angry." (This exalts seriousness and fixed identity, which precludes
would not be a customary male response, as males don't humor and multiplicity of meaning, is ripe for purging.
ascribe a negative connotation to anger.) In the '60s the Puns, jokes, and other forms ofwordplay that keep alive the
expression "Angry Young Man" came into vogue (person- spirit of irollY and .Jacri!ege, have always been hated by
ified by a sexy, desirable James Dean), but there was no authority figures, who demand unquestioning reverence.)
corresponding "Angry Young Woman" role model. From This is a truly revolutionary time-new linguistics, new
the beginning of their lives, women have been conditioned theories, new ways of thinking are emerging that must by
to be [too] polite, compliant, helpful and "nice." Women are necessity differ drastically from what is considered "tradi-
ve uncomfortable with the idea of bein a rebel, and men tional."We look forward toasocie which will inte ratethe
are pay u ncom ona e wit women ou tsi ers. W en re e- female ;;d the male and all other bina
liously critiquing society, women have never been cast as
sexy or desirable (like a female James Dean) - but rather
as a prtine bitch: grim, humorless and non-sexual.
Women have a different, less destructive relationshi to
an er than men - es eciall since lt as een a ta 00
expression or t em. Theirs is not t e rozen ra e of serial
kIllers, which festers interna y, ut rage that can e c an- -Andrea JlI/lIJ d V. Vale

5
 Photo: Dona Ann McAdams

6
 The fiery, flamboyant Diamanua GalM has carved out her own unique
sonic territory as an avant-garde composer, singer, poet, musician and artist.
Her pioneering music incorporates influences ranging from gospel to opera
to the most atonal electronic imaginings; lYrically, she has deployed poetry
from Artaud, Baudelaire and Gerard de Nerval in the service of her
uncompromising political/social criticism. As she puts it, "My voice was
given to me as an instrument of inspiration for my friends and a tool in the
torture and destruction of my enemies." The first artist to compose and
perform a "Plague Mass" on the subject of AIDS, she uses her three-and-a-
half octave vocal range to spellbinding effect on recordings such as her 3-CD
set, Madque ofthe ReJ Death? and The Litaniu ofSatan.
After a rigorous apprenticeship in classical music (piano, organ, electronic
keyboards and voice), in the '70s Diamanda worked in the free jazz and
avant-garde music scenes in Europe and America, while launching her
career as a solo artist. Nowadays she uses five microphones to spectacularly
propel her vocal/electronic musical assaults. Drawing on a power outside
herself, she often becomes possessed-turning a concert into a ritualistic,
shamanic rally. In 1990 forty Italian newspapers branded her "blasphemous,"
"cursed," and"sacrilegious" after her performance at the Fe.1tival Jelle Colline.
Currently Diamanda lives in New York City, where she manages her own
career. She records on Mute Records.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _.-r'l.r......
,~------
~

• ANDREA JUNO: This project is about the open- • DG: It's funny-Forced Ecpo,flIre magazine called me,
ing up of definitions/boundaries of women's roles- "Tura Satana without cleavage!"
• DIAMANDA GALAs: Strong women, who don't wor- Ten years ago I came up with the concept of "Black
ry if they dO/l't listen to folk music! I picture a life sur- Leather Beavers," a group of feminist diesel dykes who
rounded by the most fantastic women in the world ... went around committing revenge on rapists. We had a
women who are very powerful, very exotic, and even veterinarian to perform the castrations, a tattoo artist to
though they don't all have to be beautiful, it would be engrave "BLB" on the rapists' foreheads, an arsonist to
/lIce. I'd like to be surrounded by soulful, lovely, unusual, burn their houses down-we'd tie 'em to a tree and
strong women, like in that Russ Meyer film- castrate 'em. It would be immaculate.
• AJ: FaAe(7 PluMycat! Kill! Kill! should be shown in A girlfriend has formed a West Coast chapter in San
every grade school class for girls! That was such a Francisco, and I would encourage more women to do the
model of inspiration - especially the sexy, fabulous same across America. If you can't get professionals for
Tura Satana in that one incredible poetic gesture: the "meat work," don't worry about it-but the arsonist
putting her foot on that guy's back and snapping his should be a professional!
neck! Except we'd rewrite the ending so that she tri- • AJ: More artists should be inventing scenarIOS
umphs, and rides out of that desert town like Clint like that-
Eastwood ... • DG: Women need to think of themselves as preda-

7
 tikon," which was dedicated to Jack Abbott [prisoner
who wrote an autobiographical best-seller, In the Be!!y 0/
the Bea,'t ]. A lot of my work has been about the concept
of a person being caged, treated like an animal, and
escaping through insanity... One of my texts involves
cries to a god invented by Despair- by a person about to
be executed. This is not a god in any traditional sense.
In prison, since you don't actually have space, you
inpent it. And you need dialogue -that's why people be-
come schizophrenic: to provide themselves with the dia-
logue they're not getting in real life. That's also partly
why people take drugs-if you're alone and isolated
(which is like a whole dope fiend trip) then you lack this
dialogue-it's an essential freedom and need. If you don't
have it, ultimately you die.
• AJ: But it's society which has created this isola-
tion-
• DG: That's the caging. However, mental illness isn't
Performance in 1972 with Bobby Bradford, fluegel horn
just socially created-there are all kinds of realities in-
player, Ornette Coleman and John Carter.
volved, including biochemical factors. In any case, schizo-
phrenia or multi.ple personality disorder can provide an
tors rather than prey. The other night I threatened a guy essentialliberati.on, a form of freedom from permission-
who was hassling me, and it felt good. He said after- and my work is always preoccupied withJreedom.-I con-
wards, "I w2.sn't speaking to you - I was speaking to the sidered "Wild Women with Steak Knives" the homicidal
woman in back ofyou." [ha ha] Don't get me wrong; I'm love song of a schizophrenic woman - that was the first
not just coming on pineha maeha [a Mexican expression work I did with 5 microphones, working with different
meaning "little macho bitch"].But we need to use ki!! personalities and using varied""yocabularies and languag-
energy on our enemies, not ignore them. es ... spea~i~g in tongues (which . ~for, now)
I'm disgusted with the idea of women making them- and the trammg of vocal chords to yIeld an ll"bervolCe, a
selves invisible as they go down the street-that has to be superhuman instrument that's not about bein~r
turned around. The attitUde is the first thing-whether but about being a chann~l through which the Absolute
you back it up with your physical self-defense or a gun is ca~ manifest (or a bearer of tidings of unsentimental
your option, but the attitude needs to be there. Nowa- truth, unmatrixed by mere "taste" -a word which speaks
days we're not just talking about being hassled by one or of human limitation rather than choice). I wanted to
two men at a time, we're talking about pack,! of men. produce an immediate extroversion of sound, to deliver a
The Central Park Jogger case comes to mind: a wom- pointed, focused message-like agan.
an who, incidentally, has been insulted more by the liber-
al press f~r having been a white woman who was raped
by black men, than by the monstrosity of the physical
attack itself. It was not "politically correct" of her to have I don't care if a rapist is
been well-to-do and white. More concern was given to white or black, if he is
the background of the pigs who raped her. I don't want
middle-class or poor --- I
to know about the constitution of the rapist - I want to
kill him! I don't care if he is white or black, if he is only want to kill him! Any
middle-class or poor, if his mother hung him from the woman who has been
clothesline by his balls: I only want to ki!! him! Any raped will agree.
woman who has been raped will agree.
Speaking of being called an artist - I don't think of
myself as an artist at all. I think of myself as "Diamanda":
performance is one aspect of life, my personal sex life is I used to talk with my singing teacher in San Diego
another, and I have other sides that may be considered about guns as Il~ce,f,!ity and metaphor; we both believe in
illegal or immoral by cowards- the idea of "extroversion of energy." For example, the
• AJ: Well, art baJ to be war! You've written elo- way 1 sing embodies the concept that diffraction of the
quent, beautiful lines that are waging war on the sta- personality provides ~senJial liberation from the Je!£..
tus quo- thus extroverting the insanity. And when you extrovert
-. DG: Oriana Fallaci [author of Intervie", With HiAory the ill,ltlllity, you can live mostlOf the time as a real person,
1976] said, "Life is war!" a long time ago. That's been the yet be able to change your self and commit actions that
direction of my work ever since I composed "Panop- your real self would not be capable of.

8
 Training to be a singer is like training in the martial
arts. A Japanese martial artist once said that in my
performance I use "kill energy," because my singing in-
volves superhuman use of the voice. Ifyou're singing for
4000 people, you're singing for "the Gods." In the Greek
or Middle Eastern traditions (Om Kalsoum is an exam-
ple) singing is not about parlor room nuances of the
personality, but a very concentrated energy, an attack
energy-the transformation of the bQQY into a weapon.
It's about gomg- eyond your self. That's how martial art-
ists train: when you hit someone, you're going through

---
them ... beyond that physical dimension. And that's
the same way I've trained with voice for ma~y years;..

The original nature of woman's

voice has always been tied to
witches and the shamanistic
experience,- the witch as trans-
vestite/transsexual having the
power of both male and female.

The way I use the voice requires a very athletic disci-

pline -I have the stamina of Wagnerian opera singers
(who must sing this work three times a week). My work
has an occult, shamanistic, and ritual feeling-that's how
it's been described since 1979. Years ago, I decided I
wanted to break away from the limited concept of music
and speak honestly (perhaps having in mind the ideal of
a "divine language"). 1 called what I did "intravenal
song." Others called it "speaking in tongues."
The nature of my work, which involves litanies or
liturgical texts, ha.J created censorship'for me -obvious-
ly from churches (with one recent exception), Jesuit-
owned radio stations (of which there are many), religious
television, and fanatics who take my records to priests
for exorcism. In 1982, the New York Public Theater Art in the AnchoraiJe. Brooklyn NY, 1983 Photm Paula Court

mvited me to meet them. In the meantime, someone

obtained a copy of the Litanie.J of Satan, and when I MawJ saw my work in San Diego. At that point the art
showed up, the man said, "We can't present your work in world was definitely against what I was doing. Although
this theater" -like I was the daughter of Charles Man- Eleanor Antin [pioneering performance artist] was very
son or something! Yet the LitanleJ of Satan is a beautiful supportive, most people felt the work was emotionally
liturgical work by Baudelaire - if anyone actually read it, too violent. I would perform dressed in black with my
they'd probably be mesmerized. I'm not a fan of Charlie back to the audience; I would wait until JO/nething e!Je
Manson - although I do agree that most record company that was not me anymore would emerge - until something
people in general should receive the treatment he was greater kicked out of me. Sometimes people would get
about to give them! irritated-I'm known for making the audience wait 40
• AJ: You're taking voice to a powerful extreme, minutes- but that's a real diva thing. [laughs]
while giving expression to the dispossessed. You • AJ: Like a shaman waiting to be possessed by a
pioneered the concept of operatically dazzling per- trance state-
formance- • DG: Right. Not only that-I wasn't finished doing
• DG: I started in 1976 or '77. Luke Theodore from my eye makeup, for god's sake. There are priorities -.,ll.Q _
the Living Theater group who was doing Genet's The diva performs without her fll!! eye makeup. I perform

9
 sounds, thought into mes-
sage. And beyond the
words (with all due re-
spect to them), the com-
binations of vocal a;d
-verbal energy can be over-
whelming. Some Frenc
theorists who claim that
some of the non-verbal
sounds give you more lev-
els of meaning, but I don't
necessarily buy that shit.
Oscar Kokoschka, the
great Austrian playwright
and painter, wrote a play
(Murderer: the Woman J
Hope) which inspired me:
a woman is in a cage, and
a man is beating her to
death. She only says a few
words, but those words
are explosions or direct
lines of expression. When
1 started using non-verbal
vocabularies, I designed
my lighting to change very
radically, in sympathy. I
did spatial manipulations
of the sound into a qua-
drophonic sound system;
if 1 have speakers in 4 dif-
ferent locations, the audi-
ence is in my cage. My
~ound travel; in different
Art ill theAllchorage, Brooklyn NY, 1983 Photo: Paula Court vectors; the high frequen-
ci~llyfuck.people up!
with blood, too. Anyway, the Lil'ing Theater people took This isn't intentional-it's just that I need to do this for
me to Cennessee Mental Health Institution, and that's myself in order to feel a certain Jati.t/action.
when I started performing at lock-up wards and schizo My sound monitors would deafen anybody else; over
wards. That's how I started doing the unamplified voice the years their levels have been forced to rise - just like a
work I do now. I wOl,lld just sing these words -whatever dope fiend needs more and more! Now 1 have to/ul it-
occurred to me at the time. I/ry under that sound. 1 utilize a specialized high-pass
• AJ: What was your musical training? EQ to bypass mid- and low-frequencies, thus accentuat-
• DC: After many years of basic classical piano les- ing the higher registers-in' other words, my sound is
sons, I studied these avant-garde piano works in univer- very shrill! Ever since I began listening to opera singers
sity graduate school. Then I started playing with free on my car stereo, I would never listen at a normal vol-
jazz guys like David Murray, Butch Morris ... post- ume - I always cranked it up and distorted it. So I'm
Albert Ayler, post-Coltrane musicians. At the time it was doing with voice something like Jimi Hendrix did with
a very heavy black scene not open to women. But I had the guitar-that's what people in Europe say about my
played piano for so many years that they couldn't deny I work, and they're right!
could do it. • AJ: The power of your voice produces a very vis-
After playing piano for awhile with all these guys from ceral, primal, yet almost healing experience - as though
the post-Ornette Coleman school, I thought, "No, the poisons are being forced out. This is not abstract,
voice is the first instrument." These players have always elitist "New Music"; you provide an emotional bed-
~ e e t elr mode of expression after the voice. They rock which is intense, political and poetic-
revered singers like Billie Holiday; often, the way they • DC: That was always the original nature of woman's
played was a reaction to the voice. The voice is the prima- voice. From the Creeks onward, this voice has always
ry vehicle of expression that transforms thought into been a political instrument as well as a vehicle for trans-

10
mission of occult knowledge or power. It's always been identified with "Satan."). All masses are the same; all
tied to witches and the shamanistic experience - the witch have the ability to conjure up evil or the devil, because all
as transvestite/transsexual having the power of both male gods, all powers are connected in the world - nothing
and female. People ask me, "How do you feel as a woman else makes sense.
onstage?" and I say, "A what? Woman, man-I am a Back to the concept of the Greek voice, which is
fucking nigger, white person, lesbian, homosexual, witch, simultaneously this political/shamanistic/homosexual
snake, vampire -whatever!" I don't think in anyone of witches' voice. My father's background is Turkish-Greek-
those terms-that's so limited! But on the other hand: Anatolian, and my mother's is Spartan Greek. The Spar-
how many men can think like that? [laughs] That's the tan Greeks were known for their incantations: moiro!og~
advantage of being a woman or homosexual- which are incantations to the Dead. When mourning,
Greek women would scream and pull out their hair. (Om
Kalsoum has a certain power relating to this.) The Greeks
hate Americans because they want to turn Greece into an
U.S. Air Force base; this relates to Medea: "I would
Oh yes, we can sit on men ("Thank rather kill my children than let them be part of your
ancestry." (Just like Saddam Hussein's stance: "I would
you so much for letting me sit on
rather my country be destroyed, than be turned into an
top of you; I really need a urinary American army base. ")
tract infection tonight!") Medea leaves her homeland for her husband's sake.
Then her husband becomes interested in ayoungerwom-
an and leaves her like some old garbage, and here she is,
a transplant in this new country. She sends the future
bride a beautiful bridal gown, and when the woman puts
• AJ: You can be more flexible. Whereas a lot of it on, her skin starts to melt very slowly; she dies in total
heterosexual males have rigid, ossified gender defini- agony. (Pasolini made a film about this, Medea, starring
tions- Maria Callas.) The whole family is destroyed; she kills
• DG: Of their own volition. I have a lot of straight her children with a knife rather than leave her husband
black friends and I've always terrorized the shit out of any offspring, so he's left with nothing. And in many
them. One of them will come over and say, "Oh, baby, versions of the story she kills herself as well- that's very
let's get it on -" and I'll say, "Yeah, you know I've been traditionally Greek.
thinking about you all night" (and he'll be this big guy,
6'6") and I'll continue, "Man - I thought about fucking
you last night with this crowbar, and you were scream-
ing, 'Baby, fuck me!' "-and they have this look of abso-
lute horror on their faces! But they love me, because they I'm hostile to the act of
want a woman to talk to them like that-it's really liber- childbirth- I've always found the
ating. concept of childbirth to be a
I want to fuck a man in the ass (so far I haven't had
morbid one at best - something
any volunteers; I always ask them and they get nervous
and say no) but I want to, because I feel that's a funda- nodtalgi.e7 like a West Coast "return
mental part of my relationship with them and to myself. I to nature" cult would espouse.
don't want to just bejilckeJ-what's that? I want to expe-
rience this other thing. Someone said long ago that men
should be fucked in the ass fiNt before they fuck a
woman, so they can understand what it feels like to be
penetrated in their body. And in this area, I'm all too • AJ: Can you explain the muirologi?
willing to help! That would be my ideal man, definitely. • DG: That refers to the 1}10urning done by the women
Oh yes, we can sit on men ("Thank you so much for to incite revenge against the enemy. What the ManiotJ are
letting me sit on top of you; I really need a urinary tract to Greece, the Sicilians are to Italy; they have the same
infection tonight!") but after awhile I want to bepaiJ-as traditions. When the Turks invaded Greece years ago
an ex-hooker, I want that. Really, I wanna fuck men in and came into their houses, the Maniot women would
the ass - I want to break the fluh, too -and exorcise my decapitate them. They're known for their skill with
violence on them to show them just how much I love knives - that's a source of pride. When I went to Greece
them! I heard the same thing all over: "Don't fuck with them!"
We were talking about the concept of the voice as a Now the women pull out their hair and scream as an
political force. I also use the voice in the same liturgical incantation to the dead. Because the women would speak
way that the Mass has always been used (immediately directly to the dead, they were seen as a threat to the
people say, "Black Mass," because for some reason I'm authority of the patriarchal society and were labeled

11
 (left) Diamanda's brother, Philip-Dimitri Galas, 1979
(above) Diamanda with her brother, 1980

• DG: It's no mystery that so many of the care-givers

in the AIDS epidemic are women, or that so many of my
male friends who are sick prefer to be around women.
Women and homosexual men have long been friends;
there's a spiritual kinship. Sometimes, of course, some
drag queen will try to play diva around me-then I have
to declare, "There's only one queen allowed in this room,
"witches." More importantly, the women would speakfor dear, and you're out!"
the dead, expressing the feelings of the dead. In "Were My brother and I had a few fights about gender-
You a Witness?" I say: "We who have gone before do not blurring-he looked much better in a skirt than I ever
rest in peacelWe who have died shall never rest in peace/ will (which I resent him for, even now that he's in the
Remember me, I am unburiediI am screaming in the grave!). But speaking of mourning, male journalists will
bloody furnaces of hell ...There is no rest until the say, "She did this work because her brother died; isn't it
fighting's done." wonderful?" and I'll say, "Kiss my ass-it's not wonder-
This is not a bleeding heart, liberal concept: "Pity the ful. I'm not a noble person, my brother wouldn't want
poor AIDS victim/Pity the poor homosexual. .. " - none your fuckin' journalistic sympathy, and not only that-
of my friends who are in hospitals want that shit. They'd he just called me from Hell the other day and told me he's
rather you called them a fuckin' faggot than say you feel never been fucked so good in his life! So kiss my ass!"
sorry for them. Patronizing sympathy is revolting; it has Do you understand?
nothing to do with a Greek tragedy or Middle Eastern • AJ: It's so patronizing and simplistic to "explain
concept of mourning, which not only expresses the mourn- away" your pro-AIDS involvement because "your
ing of the family, but-more importantly-the anger of brother died." AIDS is a metaphor for all the poisons
the dead. in our world-everyone has good cause to be involved
Sometimes people say, "Your work is so angry; it's not in this struggle-
sentimental. And your own brother-" and I say, "My • DG: You're either part of the Resist~nce or you're a
brother deJpided cheap sentiment. He despised parlor- collaborator. There's no other option. I was on TV in
room sympathy. He was a strong man, a genius, a great Finland and some journalists asked, "When do you think
writer. He was a fucking homosexual-although he wasn't there's going to be a cure?" I replied, "If you have to ask
what is portrayed as 'homosexual' by the media." Here I this, you're part of the reason we have no cure." They
recall that gospel music was originally military music were horrified.
which was sung by black slaves who were chased through In Bavaria I did a performance of Plague MaJJ in its
the streets by dogs-music to inspire, to give courage early stages on Repentance Day. Ifyou are discovered to
and power in the face of the Enemy-who alwaYJ looms have HIV in Bavaria, you are known to the authorities-
so large. they have your name, address, phone number and you
• AJ: As mourners, the women were speaking not get threatened constantly, you lose your job - it's heavy. I
only for the dead but the oppressed- appeared on a pop music TV show and immediately

12
started in on the AIDS quarantine topic-they were an." (In other words, a woman is defined by the act of
trying to get me off the air as fast as possible! Because if reproduction.) To her, my refusal to breed is an intransi-
you have the image of a pop singer in a territory that gence which renders my stage presence "insufficiently
doesn't know you, they assume you'll talk about some feminine!"
innocuous shit like: you have a big penis -that's what it's • AJ: On this overpopulated planet, the Biblical dic-
usually all about. Whereas I try to subvert all the media tum "Be fruitful and multiply" is suicidal-
accessible to me. And at one "New Music" Seminar, a • DG: New breeding makes no sense at all-there's
thousand people wanted me to leave! already too many kids around; you can adopt one. What
• AJ: What did you do? about protecting the unfOl·tunate children who a!ready
• DG: I said they were all a bunch of impotent, homo- exist on this planet? I was talking to Rachel Rosenthal
phobic, ass-lickers trying to make a buck off the AIDS [godmother of performance art] about this. I told her I
crisis ("Death as Entertainment"), and this really got had my tubes tied and she said I should get a fucking
people mad. I got in a fight with Lemmy from Motor- meda! for this!
head -we got to be friends later, though, because he I try and make my life consistent with my political
respected my anger. A lot of media wouldn't publicize me beliefs; I'm not going to say, "I want a family like every-
because my show had to do with AIDS, which was then one else, because my children [of co/me] will be 'terribly
very unpopular-especially in England, the Denial Cap- special.' Fuck that - I'll get some goldfish and some cats
ital of the World. I was exposing and blasting networks and they'!! be 'terribly special'!" Every witch has cats-
that ignored AIDS news and Lemmy said, "If you'd just you never hear of a witch having children!
be less oDno.1,.'WU.l about this situation" -and this is Lem-
my from l11otorhead?!
• AJ: "If you would just be a nice girl"-
• DG: Right. And I said, "What do you know about
death, you fucking fake death, post-Sixties motherfuck- If you're in the gay community you
er?" But Lemmy i., great-and he came to my show in know there's nothing more
London after that. I really like terrorizing the rock 'n' sickening than a funeral service in
roll establishment. Recently I was on a panel where Bob
Geldof said, "As singers we can only point people in the
which the minister basically
'right' direction, and say what we think is the right thing accuses the dead man of being a
to do." My answer to him was, "Listen -we already have victim of udivine punishment."
politicians and big movie stars telling us what we should
be doing, giving us all this bullshit and false hope -why
should we listen to you?" Most of the rock'n'roll business
is a totally worthless establishment; its music was sup-
posed to be incendiary, it was supposed to be the music • AJ: On another level, I'm angry that children are
of I"el'o!ution- not this fucking wimpy ass shit, "How big not integTated into society. Most mothers exist in a
is my penis today?" and ''I'm a good guy anyway." state of cultural non-growth and alienation, and only
I continued, "If we cannot be part of thi~ activism, associate with other alienated mothers. Although it
then rock music is completely worthless; you mother- pretenoJ to revere the family, America is very anti-
fuckers are worthless, and you're finished!" He was ap- family and anti-children.
palled -it was great. He pleaded, "No no, you • DG: If I had a religion, this would be it: since I was
misunderstand," and I said, "No, I don't misunderstand." very young I knew that having a child would not be part
Also, on this panel he was talking about his wife and of my life. My Greek aunts would ask, "Are you going to
kids, and I really have an absolute aversion toward that have children?" and I'd say, "You can't talk to me like
family unit crap. that; I have no place in that reality." The myth I always
I'm hostile to the act of childbirth-I've always found aspired to was that of Artemis or Diana, the goddess of
the concept of childbirth to be a morbid one at best- the hunt. She was a warrior and a fighter who had nothing
something nOJtalgic that a West Coast "return to nature" to do with procreation.
cult would espouse. I'm hostile to the idea of being a I suppose that if a woman insists on having children
medium for this capitalist enterprise of childbearing which she can do it [yawns], but I don't want to watch it! I've
is about the male ego recognizing itself in the next gener- watched abortions and that was interesting, but I'm not
ation. I exist outside that sort of pedestrian enterprise- going to watch childbirth - I find it offensive!
so demeaning to women. I prefer the concept of woman In Mani (Greece), years ago, every new son was called
as goddess-in a shamanistic society, no shaman has the "new gun." Women were accustomed to inciting re-
children. So in 1985 I had my tubes tied. venge - the" eye for an eye" idea reflects an O!d TeJtament
There exists a critic who-I'm told-intends to ex- mentality which i.J the reality of things on many levels ...
pose me for being "against nature." The fact that I cut When the Germans invaded Greece during World War
myself apparently is a "rejection of my birth as a wom- II, the women sang songs of courage to people in prison
who were about to be executed. One song praised the people proclaim that compassion has been erased from
brave dead and the Englishmen who were defending our collective unconscious, and that's why so many so-
Greece, ending with, "May the German's plane come called "Christians" are so coldly contemptuous or conde-
crashing to the ground and burn him up alive!" and scending toward people with AIDS.
going on to describe the way the flesh would dissolve.
This funereal song was an example of "mourning as
incitement" -it incited people to be so angry they would
fight. It was never mourning in the pacifistic sense-
nel'e/: And in a country like Greece which has very little
The myth I always aspired
power-how else do you survive?
• AJ: You're carrying on this tradition of "mourn- to was that of Artemis or
ing to incite." It's no use to just mourn. Diana, the goddess of the
• DG: [spits disdainfully] That's u.JeLe.JJ. If you're in hunt. She was a warrior and
the gay community you know there's nothing more sick-
a fighter who had nothing to
ening than a funeral service in which the minister basi-
cally accuses the dead man of being a victim of "divine do with procreation.
punishment." Or, the family of a person with AIDS
insisting that the deceased's friends either not attend the
funeraL or stay in the background-thus implying that
they (or their lifestyle) are responsible for the death of
their son. Such funerals don't make sense -they're an I started working on my AIDS project over two years
in.JuLt to the reaLfrienoJ who've been keeping this person hefore my brother became ill. Half my friends are HIV-
alive to the end. Because often the family shows up after positive; this is my Life. These journalists who are outside
the fucking death. the community look at my work and it scares them
When I do a "Plague Mass," it's done for people in the because it's the voice of people who are sick themselves.
AIDS community hy someone in the AIDS community. Because it doesn't just offer "entertainment," they can't
And with AIDS we're dealing with a "plague mentali- imagine that people might want to hear it. They look at
ty" -one almost haJ to have had a firsthand experience music as a placating medium -it's supposed to be like
with death in order to start taking it I'ery JerwlI.J!y. Some Maoo/lna.
I separated my work from a safe and useless concept
World premiere of EYed Witbout BlooiJ at NY Philharmonic of "music" back in 1974. Music that is truly meaningful
Horizon Festival, 1984 Photo: Robin Holland contains a distillation of reality-and usually that's trage-
{}y. At best, most pop music lightly touches on tragedy in
ways that people can relate to, shed tears to, maybe even
dance to-after which they can then go home, go to
sleep, and effectively dismiss it. That's the "We have
addressed the issue after all" syndrome. And people like
Madonna are only too willing to propagate the idea that,
"Ifyou want to feel better about a terrible situation, you
can dance!"
Most pop music is descriptive; it's about the thing, not
the thing iudf. Whereas my work i4 the thing itself, it i4
the sound of the plague, the sound of the emotions in-
volved. And people object to that-even in the gay com-
munity, the Barbra Streisand-type queen looks at my
work and asks, "Why are you doing that?" Well, I'm
doing music for people who are conscious and who suffer
deeply. Fuckin' cocktail drinkers have music that ex-
presses what they supposedly go through; why can't
people who experience oeeper emotions have the sa~e?
This kind of timidity reminds me of a review I got
from a Lonoo/l Timed critic: "There is no point in address-
ing a perverse situation like AIDS with the perverse
music of Galas. I have several acquaintances with AIDS
and I admire and almost e/lllY their resignation."[!]
• AJ: Your line "Let's not 'chat' about the despair" is
apropos ... You invoked Antonio Artaud when he
became the plague, when he embodied the disease-

14
 • DG: Artaud was a
very strong inspiration on
my work. The two people
I read over and over again
with intere"t are Artaud
and Baudelaire. I resent
his appropriation by the
rock'n'roll establishment
who misinterpret him as a
dandy or decadent detached
from society - that's not
why he was a great poet.
That's just the only thing
they can fucking relate to.
I write songs using lyr-
ics by Baudelaire or Ger-
ard de 1 erval which are
based more on blues or
gospel music structures. I
also do solo voice and pi-
ano performances once in
a while -I enjoy that. As
a child I was a virtuoso
pianist; when I was 14 I
was playing Beethoven's
"First Piano Concerto"
with a symphony. Then
when I started playing
jazz I was pretty good - I
could play almost any-
thing. My father had a
gospel choir; he was like a
Photo: Emily Andersen
Johnny Otis figure. His
instruments were trombone and bass; he had a New more difficult task to find men that are-
Orleans band and I used to play with him when I was • DG: I think women should have an "ideal": the only
little. But he was also Golden Gloves, and hi.1 father was people you treat as equals are other women. And when
a Golden Gloves boxer as well. He taught Greek and you want JllDOrdinateJ, you can fuck a man in the ass!
English literature. He's done a lot of things and is an That basically is probably the future. Some men get
interesting man, very strong, sort of like Socrates and angry because they think I view them just as sex objects.
Zorba combined - he even looks like Anthony Quinn! (I But I say, "You don't need to read to me-1 can read. And
love Anthony Quinn -why aren't there more men like conversation - I can get that from my friends. So you
that?! I feel like Sophia Loren in cowboy country-but should feel lucky that you at least have thi.J service you
all the cowboys are gay.) can offer me."
• AJ: The whole concept of maleness is shaky nowa- There've been a lot of military men in my life - I like
days. Misogyny still rules, but now it's mixed with a them to be fighters, at least on a physical level. There've
lot of cowardice, impotence and wimpiness- been ex-cons - I like violent men; I like the idea that I
• DG: I pity weak men: they should be dragged out can terrorize them and they can take it. I don't want 'em
into the middle of the street, beaten, humiliated, degrad- to knock me across the room unless I hit them first-and
ed and sodomized by my friends and me just for sport. I can hit 'em back. In the area of violence and sex, I always
love seeing weak men cry-my heart races. warn people. For example, if they want to be bitten, I
I feel sorry for men, but if I could fuck 'em in the ass say, "Either you want to be bitten or you don't, because I
then it wouldn't matter! [laughs] Actually, I think that might lose control- there will be no halfway measures!"
eventually I won't be exclusively heterosexual by any [laughs] And this is a domain that people who worry
means. I might go the way of Bessie Smith and Billie about being politically correct don't address: the realm of
Holiday and become a full-on, fuckin' dyke. exciting, even violent sex between consenting adults.
• AJ: When heterosexual women get to the point Most people think that sex should be gentle and peace-
where they possess their independence and soul, and ful. But if sex is merely gentle and peaceful, I'm not even
start becoming truly discriminating, it makes for a intereJted. Of course, when I say violence I mean "play

15
 that sexual power rela-
tions can be the inverse
of "real life." Nowadays
women have to take on
many roles - especially
power roles. What's most
threatening to the male
status quo? It's a woman
like you who is not only
extravagant, a terrorist,
and an artist but who
also proudly proclaims,
"Yeah, I've got a woman'.!
body."
• DG: Right. You don't
ask for power; you take it!
[laughs] That's just the
way it is, isn't it?
• AJ: That should be a
mantra!
• DG: With regard to
relations with men, SM
reality has been the only
reality that has ever inter-
ested me on a psychic lev-
el. It ha.J presented certain
risks, because when you
talk to some of these ex-
cons the way I talk to
them - ifyou ask for trou-
ble, sometimes you really
ge tit -unfortunately!
[laughs]
I think it's marl'elouJ
[upper-class accent] that
some women have these
nice, gentle husbands who
are really kind to them,
treat them really well and
help them in their work
(that kind of thing)-I
think that's really nice for
them. And I'm not saying
it shouldn't work for some
people-I'm glad it does.
Photo: Dona Ann McAdams
Wonderful! And I think
men should be friends
violence" (a topic of discussion in itself) - I'm really not with women in this sense; r think it's good. rt just
interested in ending up with a broken jaw or collarbone. doesn't interest me, that's all.
I like the man I'm seeing now because he'll say, "You As for me-I'm my own manager, my own pretty
filthy fuckin' white whore, that's all you want, you piece much el'erything. I can't explain why that is, but I like
0' shit!" and I'll say, "Listen, you black motherfucker, I'm that self-reliance. I don't want to sleep with some fuck-
gonna take you by a chain and lead you through the ing guy every night. I don't want him contaminating my
streets!" This is the way we like to talk to each other- bed; I don't want that male energy in my bed every
any way we damn well please! ot with this wimpy, night. I don't want it on the road with me; I want to
politically correct "discourse" [sarcastically]. chooJe when I have it. Usually it's a reward for a job well
• AJ: A lot of people in the SM community are done -the fact that if I've taken care of my life, then r
exploring this area of role-playing, and discovering can have my reward. If you had asked Fassbinder, I'm

16
sure he lived the same way. A lot of these guys, like "Just use my name - that's sufficient; no one else is doing
Pasolini - I'm sure this is the way they lived and worked; what I do." The direct statement- I can respect that.
,'e[f-reLiant. On the other hand, technique iJ important. I like the
• AJ: For a woman, having a relationship often way Japanese martial artists regard technique: if you
means being "owned." It doesn't even matter whether lack a certain mastery, you can't express or he yourself. I
you aren't, because that's the way society looks at you: aim for something heyond what's expected -yet the mo-
as the "girlfriend" or "wife of JO-and-Jo." Yet it's very ment I imagine my suffering as something that's never
rare for any man to be referred to as "so-and-so's been experienced by someone else, 1 become boring,
bLUhand. " Also, you rarely ever hear of a woman being effete, self-indulgent-not interesting. Greek tragic the-
referred to as a "genius"; only a man- ater has a quality of being larger than life, just like great
• DG: I have an aLLergy to "male genius." If J listen to a boxing (I like to call myself the "Tyson of the Voice")
man talk about his work for more than 2 minutes, I get because it's life or death when you're in the ring. And
supremely bored... I can certainly understand why when you are "singing to the gods" you must have a
lesbian separatist concepts evolved. So "male genius" is superlative technique to extrovert the ride -to "ride the
something I have to rail against, because I feel it, I outer limits of the soul." Because without technique,
understand it-and I'm not interested! Tyson might be known as the baddest fighter in the
As far as associating with men who do not have ideas, Bronx, but you and I never would have heard of him!
the men that I hang out with, the men that Ifllck, are not
geniuses -they're not even particularly bright. But they
don't have any pretensions of cutting-edge theory or
cultural analysis - r won't listen to them for that, any-
way. And if one woman says to another woman, "I can't
I think women should have an
understand why you associate with so-and-so" -no one Hideal": the only people you treat as
has the right to say that, because in this society the men equals are other women. And when
are so inferior that we take the heJt we can get! We've been you want .1uhor{)inated~ you can fuck
forced to - unless we're not heterosexual, that's our
choice!
a man in the ass!
Yet r can't blame a woman for wanting somebody who
will challenge her. I had a beautiful breakfast one morn-
ing in Germany with William Burroughs-a great man
whose genius r respect. We'd done a show on the same I can't really relate to most white rock'n'roll singing. I
bill the night before. He told me that he really liked what think Aretha Franklin is a great singer, but she grew up
I did, and that he had never seen anything that emotional in the gospel tradition singing in black churches, where
since he was in Morocco many years ago. Then he brought the voice really is a medium for the JOuL. But within the
up Martha Graham, who was a great visionary-that:" white rock'n'roll establishment, the kind of singing that
what we talked about. A lot of people today wouldn't see predominates is pathetic: about "your girlfriend left you,"
her (or her dances) that way, but her ideas have been or something else that's weak - there's never that Jhaman-
appropriated by practically every dancer and choreogra- iJtic sense. Rock singing is something men do to get laid
pher today. So he talked about Martha Graham, and I or get their cock sucked after a gig-you can smell it. I
thought, "Oh! He isn't the person he was made out to don't go to male rock'n'roll shows; r didn't go to that
be-just interested in guns and macho shit-he's a real fuckin' Jim Morrison movie. Why do I want to see the
human being -" motherfucker jerk off in my face, larger than life? What
• AJ: He loves cats- do I have to learn from this motherfucker?
• DG: Yes! So that was a revelation ... Martha Gra- If we're talking Hendrix-well, there:" a great artist
ham, who like Callas with opera, Baudelaire with poetry, and musician. Oh, he happened to take drugs, but that's
and Artaud with the theater-forced her soul to migrate not why he was great-that was just the part that people
to another place, and stretched her craft with it. The soul could relate to, because they love the idea of the self-
and the blood iJ the craft; beauty is revealed through destructive genius, or the "musical suicide." Jim Morri-
technique after the hard work is done. And just as Callas son's Lucky he died so young, before he became an
brought back that primal reality to the opera, and Gra- overweight, drooling drunk. But all this makes me sick-
ham brought it back to dance, so Albert Ayler and Or- it has nothing to do with anything important. All rock
nette Coleman brought it back to jazz. All these artists singers are just singing to their dick! Well, I'm not sing-
start with the scream, with the blood, and then they ing to my dick!
articulate that. They don't lose sight of that being what • AJ: To be a warrior you have to train and be
they're a medium for. disciplined. Most people have creative impulses, but
I don't respect the boundaries of any art form; I cer- few nourish and develop them. Every day, whether
tainly don't respect music's boundaries. If some journal- you're inspired or not, you just have to work.
ist tries to describe and circumscribe my work, I say, • DG: Actually, I love to answer that question, "Are

17
you inspired?" [think W.H. Auden once said, "NO-I'm ing and laid down in the aisles. [ shouted, "Cardinal
Ilem' inspired!" O'Connor, you are responsible for the deaths of ... you
• AJ: You have great technique, which is so vital- have sinned!" He had the congregation stand up and
• DC: You have to! Can you imagine someone going recite the "Lord's Prayer" (like in the Ecorcl.ft-that's
to war who didn't know how to fight? [laughs] [fyou try what you do when there are sinners in your midst and
to reach the emotional levels [ try for without technique, you're trying to exorcise the devil!) And I have to admit I
well-[ 've seen people in mental institutions hit their felt sorry for some of the older parishioners, because a lot
head against the wall and say "Mama!" for hours at a of them simply aren't informed; they're isolated by soci-
time, and I'm sure they //leallt it-but so what? [f [ see ety, and for them this is their only "community."
some singer, unless [ think he's really ,fu/feredto be able to
do what he does, I don't care to watch him. I mean-I
didn't elljily studying voice - it was a lot of hard work. I
worked my fuckin' ass off for years and years and didn't
see people and didn't go out - I didn't live a "party" life. I
I'm getting a tattoo which says,
lived in fuckin', stinking San Diego for years just to "We are all HIV Positive." And
study with this voice coach, but I could have been having if I wear the right clothes it will
fun in New York ... just say "HIV Positive."
• AJ: We were talking about bringing m.eaning back
to all the arts-integrating them back into people's
lives and the com.nmnity. Music used to actually have
some relevance, but now it's just this masturbatory-
• DC: Wanko But we're not talking about music such So I felt some ambiguity: being raised Creek Ortho-
as Mozart's Requiem /l1a.l.I- I 'm sorry, but when I hear dox, I didn't like doing that! Nevertheless I felt it was
that I'm on the floor crying immediately. Now there was a important. The cops asked us to get up without sufficient
master no one can deny. warning, so they carried us out on stretchers and took us
I did a Mass which I called a "Plague Mass." It was to jail in paddy wagons. A lot of people in ACT UP don't
not just for the dead but for the living-people with want to go to prison because then they'll be taken out of
AIDS who don't necessarily view their disease as a death action for awhile. Coing to jail isn't something to roman-
sentence-although it usually is. I wrote it to encourage ticize, it's just: you were there for a few hours and it was
action rather than p~ssivity. a drag, but ,10 what . ..
• AJ: Do you have any tattoos?
• DC: I'm getting a tattoo which says, "We are all HIV
Positive." And if I wear the right clothes it will just say
"HIV Positive." A lot of people already assume I've got
I don't want to sleep with some guy AIDS because of my work, just as they assume I'm a
lesbian-obviously, no Jtraight person would be interest-
every night. I don't want that male
ed in doing what I do! In Sweden I was interviewed: "So,
energy in my bed night after night. Diamanda, we hear that you are a very famous lesbian." I
I don't want it on the road with me; said, "Oh, am I? I'll have to ask my lesbian friends-I'm
I want to cboo.1e when I have it. certainly not famous among them!" I told my friends and
they laughed their heads off-could it be I'm the "Co-
lette" of the avant-garde? ... I'm certainly not the Ger-
trude Stein.
The questions"Are you homosexual? Are you hetero-
• AJ: Can you tell us about your arrest? sexual? Are you white? Are you black?" -who cares?
• DC: I got arrested when ACT UP went to St Patrick's I'm a civilized human being and I don't think in those
Cathedral in December '89 and staged a "Die-In" to terms. This shouldn't even be a primordial way of
protest Cardinal O'Connor's war against people with thought - people should think of themselves as planetary
AIDS. Basically, he was attacking anybody trying to citizens.
implement condom and preventive measures campaigns. • AJ: In sexuality, we're a continuum; people aren't
Because he would not meet with any members of the 100% gay or 100% heterosexual.
AIDS community, it was necessary for us to go into hi.f • DG: Did you see that cover of Outweek: "Marlene
environment. Dietrich and Greta Garbo: Bisexual or Cowards?" Give
It was a peaceful demonstration; there were thou- me a break! C. Carr wrote an outstanding piece in the
sands of people outside the cathedral. [ was one of the ViLLage Vince attacking the practice of outing. Outweek
ones who went Lilto the church. When Cardinal O'Connor wanted to put me on their cover because of my pro-
spoke his cliches about, "We must care for the afflicted AIDS work, but the editor freaked out, saying, "I wuh
and suffering," we exposed the masquerade he was stag- you were a lesbian!" I said, "You exist to 'out' homosexu-

18
als, but if somebody is supposedly 'straight', then no
matter what they do it's not good enough for you, is it?"
• AJ: The enemy has always lived by the tactic of
"Divide and Conquer." While we're all fighting each
other, the reactionaries of the world are cleaning up!
The right wing Christian Fundamentalists, including
Meese and his anti-pornography, homophobic cam-
paigns which we're all feeling the effects of, don't fight
with each other.
• DC: No one person or faction can speak for the
entire gay or AIDS community, yet factions in ACT UP
against CMHC (Cay Men's Health Crisis), against CRI
(Community Research Initiative) and other groups try
to cut off each other's funding or expose "politically
incorrect" behavior. That kind of activity is really injuri-
ous. I don't claim to be a spokesperson for the AIDS
community, I'm one small voice contributing whatever I
can. I play the piano for AIDS patients at Veterans
Hospital and at Bailey House - the oldest residence house
in New York for people with AIDS; I have a lot of
friends who work in the community; I try to find out
about drugs for my friends and get them in programs
... but I'm just one fucking person. I always say that
even ifyou spend only one hour a week dealing with the
AIDS crisis, at least do something! Don't ask me ques-
tions like, "When's there going to be a cure?" -be part of
it!
• AJ: What does "the Devil" or "Satan" mean to
you?
Photo: Dona Ann McAdams
• DC: Baudelaire described "Satan" fairly well. I was
in Berlin and some girls came up to me and said, "Oh,
you are Diamanda-please do another record for us
soon. We have witchcraft rituals and shoot up speed and religious ceremony (which is against the law), but to
chant to the Devil and listen to your music." I thought, participate in it by doing a "Die-In.;' So it depends on the
"Ohfllck-you could get a Julie Andrews record and do way you look at it.
this kind of stupid shit." I mean: what can they do to you? They can put you in
When a witch is about to be burned on a ladder in jail- but ifyou see the ability to survive in any context as
flames, who can she call upon? I call that person "Satan," a mark of your strength, then that's not going to break
although other people may have other names, and it's the your spirit. If I ever go to prison and someone says
same entity that schizophrenics call upon to create an something nasty to me, we'll have to fight and hopefully I
essential freedom they need. It's that subversive voice can beat her ass. And if I call't beat her ass, then I have to
that can keep you alive in the face of adversity. If you've learn how to do it for the next time. WhatJ the problem? So
ever been institutionalized (and I have), then you know I don't get scared, I think: "What are you going to do to
what a de.JceI;t into heLL is. And if you can come out of it me? Are you going to rape me? -I've been raped before.
alive, then you are so much the stronger. I have this text: What are you going to do? Next. "
"You call me the shit of Cod? I am the shit of Cod! You When I almost got raped for the fifth time in my life,
call me the Antichrist? I am the Antichrist, I am Legba, I this black guy came up to me while I was opening a door
am the Holy Fool, I am the Scourge of Cod" (Legba is and said (in the dark), "This is a rape!" I said [bored
the trickster in West African tradition). So you say, "Yes, voice], "Oh, really? It's been a long day. Could I ask you
I am the Antichrist, I am Legba, I am all these things you a question -do you have a knife?" "No." "Then why
are afraid of." don't we just call it off?" And he called it off! It was like:
• AJ: It's those "tricksters" (the artists and Outsid- "Darling, I'm terribly bored. I really want to get some
ers) who reveal society's illnesses- sleep and I don't have time for this. You don't have a
• DC: But those Outsiders are treated like hunted knife, so let's forget it." And as he walked downstairs
criminals. There have been warrants out for my arrest, with me I said, "Next time you should be careful, because
and I think, "Oh-society's going to put me in jail." In 1 could have had one." It's like: you can get to the point
court, six ACT UP demonstrators pleaded that they where you're not afraid-then people see that and what
didn't enter the cathedral to disrupt Cardinal O'Connor's call they do?

19
 • AJ: Earlier we were talking about how society to be sufficient-that it's truly reflective of what's going
projects onto the Other, the Outcast, the Outsider, on in the world. Because if you work alone most of the
the dark side of its psyche which it pretends doesn't time, you can begin to wonder ...
exist-
• DG: It's a privilege to accept that. If you tell me I
wear a cloak of filth, let me tell you: I wear it reafgooJ. This
idea is very dear to me. I grew up in a very isolated I learned a lot about being a
situation - my father was very strict: no radio, no TV, no
mass media were allowed in the house. And in terms of
woman from these black drag
bringing up kids, being Turkish/Greek is like being Mus- queens.- the power behind the
lim: I was not allowed to wear a 2-piece bathing suit; I role, and how you can use it.
was not allowed to have any dates-not until I left the
house at the age of 19. I had no friends until I was 18. So
my brother and I lived these weird lives: he lived in the
attic and I lived downstairs, playing the piano and doing
things by myself. And in that isolation you develop pecu- Before doing my mental hospital performances, I used
liarities and inner strengths you can call upon. You dis- to say prayers to the devil-it was like making a connec-
cover this early because you're not being constantly tion to some source of power so that 1 could do what was
distracted. not socially accepted. It was like: "You know me, you
Later on I got into drugs and had some pretty wild understand me, I can speak for this reality-you can help
experiences, making that "descent into hell and back." I me do this." I didn't know who I was addressing, really,
went through a lot of shit to store up and hone that but that was what I did. The kind of performance I do,
power that comes from within, where you know you can the kind of things I have to say, the physical energy I put
rely on yourselfand your judgment - power which doesn't into it-it's/reeing but it's very physically demanding. If
come from olltJiJe. Some people who have a large support you're standing in front of 3000 people doing this kind of
system think they have power and strength, but to me performance -well, that demands superhuman strength
they're like some fucking little ants. Although they might and emotional reserves that are really beyond me and my
be considered normal or sane, I might consider them capability as a very fallible human being. Sometimes my
very insane, because of the values they live by ... performances feel to me like a ripping of the flesh, like a
bloodletting...
• AJ: A kind of voodoo possession?
• DG: That's exactly what it is. And In Europe I've
had people from Nrica ask me if what I do is a witchcraft
I went through a lot of shit to store ceremony. A Ugandan who had brought Miriam Make-
up and hone that power that comes ba to Cologne, Germany, invited me to Ethiopia and
from witbin~ where you know you Uganda because what I did in performance (specifically,
my Greek junta piece) reminded him of the JamrotJaka
can rely on yourself and your which is practiced in Uganda. He was an old man, and I
judgment --- power which doesn't almost didn't believe him, but he said that if I were
come from ouuiiJe. performing in Uganda, I would be worshipped as a high
fetish priestess. I thought, "Yeah, rightj what do you
want?" but he was very serious about it.
I've heard this over and over again from Nricans
who've seen my performance -they relate to it in a dif-
When I saw Psalm 88 in the OfJ Te,1lament, it was very ferent way. Because again, it's not about art - it's not art. I
clear to me that it had to be the first incantation in my don't read the fucking Village Voue to come up with what
work, "Masque of the Red Death." When I started to I'm going to do. Eight years ago when I worked on my
sing it was in a voice I'd never heard before: it wasn't my "Plague Mass" it wasn't because I reaJ that people were
voice-people have said it sounded like a Southern Bap- dying of AIDS; I just had this intuition to work on this,
tist on acid. My upstairs neighbors were homosexual but I didn't know why. That's why I asked those gay
priests in the Catholic church working with PWA's (Peo- priests: "What am I doing? Is this going to hurt some-
ple With AIDS) in hospitals, and I asked them about body?" That's all I wanted to know-I didn't want to do
using these texts: "Did this make any sense? Was I just something to hurt someone because my intuition might
out of my mind?" And they said, "Use them!" That made have inappropriately interfaced with a real life situation.
me feel a little better, because with all due respect to the • AJ: Did you study with Linda Montano?
"artist's" supposed discoveries of realities unbeknownst • DG: No. Linda and I were at the Center for Musical
to anyone else, when one deals with a situation like an Experiments; I was working with electronics and she
epidemic, one hopes that one's vision or intuition is going was performing there. That's how I know her.

20
 • AJ: She does "per-
formance therapy" which
can dredge up hidden
emotions and channel
them into theatrical ar-
tifice. Annie Sprinkle
went to her workshop
and had to act out her
worst experiences, ex-
posing old festering
wounds, and this seemed
to have the potential to
heal-
• DG: The act of
embarrassing oneself
Cem-bare-ass": I like
that wordplay) is very
pai n fu I, especially for
dope fiends - they oon't
want to do that. I've lived
through some painful ex-
periences because I like
to do what I want. My life
is my research, you
know -I detest mediocri-
ty. On San Pablo Avenue
in Oakland, California I
worked as a prostitute for
awhile under the name
"Miss Zina." I was living
with some black transves-
tite hookers: Miss Gina
(otherwise known as
Butch), Miss Michelle
(tranJJe,Tllaf), and Duch-
ess, who was another "nat-
ural woman" like me. This
was way back in 1974. I
was in love with a man
who was real- he was a
major con artist. Previous-
ly I had worked in a cou-
ple of whorehouses, but
that was generally a real
Photo: Dona Ann McAdams
bore. One day a Turkish
guy came in and -I won't
turn a Turkish trick; forget it-not as a Greek ... so I "Okay, I'm not going to turn down a dare."
quit. Basically you'd get into the car and start turning the
Anyway, part of the reason I became a prostitute was trick and then steal their wallet and stick 'em up. Some
because I wanted to be able to walk down the street in pimps tried to round me up and put me in their cars, but
the worst fucking part of town and carry a fucking knife I had my life defended by these great black drag queens.
and know that it was my .ttree{-our street, not their These toothless bitches with knives would say to the
street. You know that the whole streetwalker "thing" is: pimps, "Mary, I'll cut your fucking dick off-just don't
stealing money from tricks -that's what you do. So I touch this thin,q!" I learned a lot about being a woman from
lived with these drag queens who were basically thieves these black drag queens -the power behind the role, and
and sister dope fiends. And how I got started was: one how you can use it. Very important-1 learned how to
day these drag queens dared me to go out at 6 AM in the walk down the street without fear. Part of the time I
fucking rain and raise some rent money, so I decided, worked this drag queen strip with "Miss Gina from

21
Argentina" -we did this fake Spanish-speaking routine teach people how to fight say: When someone attacks
together-it was fucking bizarre. This experience was you-just e.-cploJe! You're not yourself anymore, you're
very important to me. this other thing. And that's really different from trying to
lt's like: a lot of men think they have to go to war to be use your supposed "rational center" -which is your fuck-
a man. Well, for me as a woman in those days: "You're ing center 0/ Jell-ollt-and saying [mock sympathy], "Mr
not going to know anything about sex unless you work Rapist, I know you don't really mean to be putting your
the street ... not until you've done that and lived through dick up my ass!"
the whole violent trip." That is not a suggestion to any- • AJ: You've got to get into that animal mode and go
one; it was my trip in '74. right for the throat. If you carry a gun, you never wave
When you rape a whore it's called "stealing"! And a it around- the moment you take it out you had better
raped whore can't go to the fucking cops, either. One kill, instantly! Because otherwise it will get taken away
time I was playing in a black band, and one guy waited from you. [laughs] You keep it totally hidden until the
until everyone else had gone home. He was a black ex- moment you need it, and you carry it in your pocket
boxer, and the next thing I knew he just knocked me on with your hand on it, not in some purse. And you
the ground and did the whole rape thing. Another time- never shoot to "wound," you shoot to kill-two shots
I won't tell you about that time! I put myself in a lot of in the chest and then one in the head. Because you've
dangerous situations because I had this pinchu macha got to stop that male attacker.
thing-I felt I had to prove something. These days, if • DG: My father always told me that with a gun you
there's six punks on the street corner, I'll still walk by kill them first, then you put a hole in the ceiling so that
them -I'm not going to let them see me cross the street to when the cops arrive, you say, "Well-I warned him! I
avoid them! That's ridiculous, I know, but still I won't do trieJ!" [laughs] •••
it. I prize my freedom. That's why I'm convinced that all
women seriously have to get guns. I personally own a .38
Special.
• AJ: The only form of gun control I would support
is that women could own guns and men couldn't. Wom-
en dhoulu carry guns. I don't understand how any true
feminist could be in favor of gun control-who do they
think they're kidding? What masochistic woman could
think this? You really have to empower yourself. The
gun I recommend to friends is also a .38 Special-the
Smith & Wesson Model 49 with a lightened trigger
pull and Tyler T-Grip adaptor.
• DG: It's like: to some women, fighting is considered PIa.9ue MaJJ, 1991
a "bad vibe." We're conditioned to the idea that if some- MaJqll£ 0/ the ReJ Death, 1988
one fights back-well, that'll bring you "bad karma." }(JIl Mwt Be Certain of the Devil, I 988
We're conditioned to this idea that if you have a gun, Saint of the Pit, 1986
you're inviting trouble. Newdweek Tqn this huge cover The Dil'ine Punwhment, 1986
story trying to prove how dangerous guns are, talking DiamanJa Gald.J, 1984
about "suicides" and people "killed by mistake" -even The LitanieJ of Satan, 1982
though all their statistics were lies. But guns don't walk
in the middle of the night on 8 legs and blow your head Recordillg Compilatioll'!
off! So - fuck! A lot of women are conditioned to think
that ifyou get a gun, someone will just take it away from The LaJt 0/ England, 1987
you. Or ifyou have a knife, then somebody will stab you Smack My Crack, 1987
with it. The same "logic" is cited in the AIDS communi- A DiamonJ in the Mouth ofa CorpJe, 1986
ty: "Bad vibes produce stress, and stress is destructive to Double-Barrel Prayer, 1988
a healthy immune system, so Jon't fight back- basically
accept your karma. God has chosen you to die, so try to Film SOlllldtrack If70rk
make that happen as slowly as possible-if you fight
The Ladt 0/ England, Derek Jarman, 1987.
back, it will just stimulate the virus and you 'Il die faster."
Antigone, Amy Greenfield, 1988.
This kind of thinking is really madness!
Miscellaneous work for Wes Craven; Colam & Globus.
• AJ: This is another ghettoization of the victim.
The status quo wants people to be passive self-victim-
izers, because then they're just that much more pli-
able. It's like the Jews going into the gas chamber One-hour documentary of Galas performances from 1980-
thinking, "Well, maybe if we're nice, they'll let us go." present now in preparation. Contact Mute Records for
• DG: Yes ... unfortunately, that's it! The guys who information.

22
 For the past 16 years Annie Sprinkle has worked as a 42nd Street dancer,
porno film star (150 feature films, 20 videos, and 50 8mm loops), prostitute
in massage parlors, hosted her own cable TV show, starred in the comix
series MUJ Timed by Andy Mangels, and contributed numerous articles and
photographs to porn magazines (besides having edited one herself). In 1985
she moved into the world of performance art as a member of the cast of Deep
],uide Porn StaN, at Franklin Furnace in New York City. Since then Annie
has perfonned all over the world as a "Post-Porn Modernist," breaking
taboos and pushing limits - in a number of shows she invited the audience to
"demystifY the female body" by inspecting her cervix with a speculum and
flashlight.
Annie describes her move out of pornography into performance art as a
liberation from "junk sex" toward an eclectic exploration of the outer reacheJ
of Jexuality, combining Eastern philosophy, yoga, meditative breathing,
spirituality and healing. She once said, "I was called the Mother Theresa of
Porn and the Renaissance Woman of Porn. Before that I was the Queen of
Kink. Now I'm the Shirley MacLaine of Porn!" A performance might include
a monologue, a one-woman sex show, a play or interaction with the audience
invited to participate, and a tantric healing ritual. Promoting her vision of
New Age Sexuality, Annie says, "Sex is a path to enlightenment ... And
women producing porn will push things in a positive direction. Women have
something really special to offer in terms of helping our society grow
sexually."
The POJt Porn MOdernut ManijeJto (written by Annie's partner, Veronica
Vera) proclaims, "Post Porn Modernists celebrate sex as the nourishing, life-
giving force. We embrace our genitals as part, not separate, from our spirits.
We utilize sexually explicit words, pictures and performances to communicate
our ideas and emotions. We denounce sexual censorship as anti-art and
inhuman. We empower ourselves by this attitude of sex-positivism. And
with this love of our sexual selves we have fun, heal the world and endure."
Annie Sprinkle's new book, POJt Porn MOdernut, is available for $33
postpaid from The Sexuality Library, 1210 Valencia St, San Francisco CA
94110 (415-550-7399).

_ _ _ _ _ _ _.-nr;.llr 17 ~-....IIii,;::::N;;:~~ _

• ANNIE SPRINKLE: There is nothing in my child- I lost my virginity at the age of 17 that I even became
hood that would have led anyone to believe that I would interuteo in sex. I think, though, that it was all those years
end up being "Annie Sprinkle" -nothing. I was not a of fear and lack of knowledge that propelled me to learn
sexual child - I was very shy and inhibited. It wasn't until everything about sex and become a "sex educator" ...

23 .
-
J

-
J

I was never abused, never raped -still have never job-and a week later I was working in a massage
been raped. Nothing happened that would have led me parlor. For 3 months I worked and didn't even know I
to believe I would become "Annie Sprinkle" ... until was a hooker - I was having such a good time! The men
suddenly I ended up in prostitution -six months after 1 I saw were referred to as "clients" or "massages." But
lost my virginity! finally, after about 3 months one woman used the word
• ANDREA JUNO: How did tbat happen? "trick" and I realized, "Ohmigod-they're trickJ! Oh

-
• AS: I needed money. I was a hippie-once In a shit-I'm a hooker!"
while I'd smuggle some pot in from Mexico but now I • AJ: Would you actually engage in intercourse?
was just being a hippie, not making money. This friend • AS: Yes-I would do a little massage and get turned
J of mine was a witch; he cast a spell to help me find a on ... and then I would fuck 'em! And they'd leave me

24
 Annie Sprinkle '«I GuiiJelineJ for Sex in the '90 'J
AhJtinence Can Be DangerouJ To Your Health: Ab- tion. Our sex lives, like all the parts of our lives,
stinence can cause incredible anxiety, fr'ustration, go through many phases. We learn from all our
depression, disease, violence and a whole host of experiences incl uding our "mistakes." Allow oth-
other destructive forces. Ifyou like sex,then don't er people their own paths. Allow yourself your
give it up. It's too precious a gift. own path.

Redefine Your Concept OfSex: Because we are now Learn Ahout Your Breath: Sexual and orgasmic
in the AIDS era, it is essential that we let go of old energy travel on the breath. Breathing tech-
ideas of how sex is "supposed to be." We have to niques can make sex much more powerful and
find new ways to be intimate and express sexual satisfying. (It's possible to have an orgasm from
feelings. Learn that sex is about energy, not the breathing alone. Is this the safe sex of the fu-
way bodies touch. Focus on energy. ture?) Rhythmic breathing is the best thing since
the invention of the vibrator.
Accept The Fact That You Are Living In The AIDS
Era: Stop complaining that sex isn't the way it Knoll' That You Can ChooJe Holl' You Want To
used to be and that you hate condoms. Get over it ExpreJJ Your Se.'l:uality -Self-Lovingly Or Self-De-
and accept reality. Learn to love latex. Total ac- Jtructively: Many people are shutting down their
ceptance of the reality of being in the AIDS era sexuality because they have come to realize that
will get rid of fear and frustration and bring they had a lot of self-destructive and addictive
awareness and compassion. Educate yourself on behavior revolving around sex. But you have a
safe sex practices. Use a condom whenever you choice, just like you do with what you eat. There
need to, so we can stop the spread of the AIDS is junk sex, health sex and gourmet sex. Try to
virus and other STD's. make self-loving choices, but if you don't, then
don't beat yourself up.
VuualizeA SafeAnd Satufying Future For Your Sex
Life And The Sex LiveJ OfFuture GeneratiOlUo Take Care Of Your Body: Eat well, exercise and
pamper your body with long baths and obscene-
Let Your Sexual Energy FlOlI'.' If you've been re- ly expensive toiletries.
pressing your sexuality because of the fear of
AIDS, you don't need to. Realize that AIDS is
caused by a virus and not by your sexuality. (That's
like saying you will go blind if you masturbate.)
Your sexuality will not give you AIDS. There are
a trillion, billion, million ways to be sexual with-
out risking any exposure to AIDS, or risking
exposing someone else. Enjoy them.

Make Love To The Earth And The Sky: Our earth

and sky are painfully polluted. Make love to them,
and they'll make love to you. Send them your
sexual energy. They love it.

Make Time For Enjoying Sex: If you like sex, give

yourself and others the gift of loving sensual!
sexual pleasure. THROW AWAY YOUR TV.

Get Rid OfAny LaJt VeJtigeJ OfSe.:l:ual GuiltAnd Of

Any FeelingJ That You Don 't DeJerve PleaJure.

Do Not Judge YourJelf Or OtherJ: We are all at the

right place at the right time in our sexual evolu-

Annie Sprinkle's logo by Debbie Moore

25
 eryone trying to be the same. There was no juiciness-I
wasn't aware of any kind of sexuality anywhere.
• AJ: So what happened at I7?
• AS: [lost my virginity and it was a lovely, wonderful
experience. The man was older and had a motorcycle. At
the time I was living in Panama (Central America). I had
some really nice friends, but high school guys my age
didn't interest me. Plus, I was busy exploring Panama, so
sex wasn't a big thing. But when I lost my virginity I
definitely became interested - because it felt so good!
• AJ: But it seems you bypassed certain liabilities.
For a lot of women, sex becomes part of a "neediness"
... a byproduct of getting a relatiofUbip-whereas
Ellen Steinberg as a Girl Scout surrounded by her family. you liked sex just in and of itseIf-
• AS: Yes, sex had nothing to do with a relationship. I
extra money 'cause they'd had such a good time. I fig- actually felt it was a great way to get to know people. And
ured this was for the massage plus a tip-and the sex was I wanted to learn everything about sex-I didn't have to
just something I threw in for fun! Because I was really marry the guy or even like him! I wanted to see what sex
curious - I wanted to try sex with all different kinds of was like with somebody you couldn't even "stand," so for
people. awhile I had my "Beauty and the Beast" fantasy: being
I worked in that massage parlor and ended up coming with the "creepiest" kind of guys (that wasn't my word,
to New York where [ became the mistress of Gerard but that's how someone else would have considered them).
Damiano (who made Deep Throat). I had always wanted But at the same time [ felt a lot of love for everybody; I
to learn filmmaking, so I started apprenticing at a place was like the "hooker with a heart of gold."
that made "one day wonders" -really low-budget porno
movies. This was when there were porno theaters all
over the country, after Deep Throat had been released and
porno chic had arrived. I would do a little massage and
• AJ: So when you grew up, sex had been-
• AS: -such a scary thing. Menstruation was not
then I would fuck 'em! And they'd
talked about; sex wasn't talked about-it was all a big leave me extra money'cause
Jecret. All I knew about sex was: f ll'aJn't having it (if you they'd had such a good time. I
did, you were a slut). The suburbs of Los Angeles are figured this was for the massage
very conservative: white, middle-class, conformist-ev-
plus a tip.......- and the sex was just
something I threw in for fun!
Ellen Steinberg with Dog.

When I was in that massage room having sex, I Loved

that person! I was truly having a deeper reLatioruhip. And
they loved me! I think that as a child I didn't get enough
attention because there were so many kids in the fami-
ly-and I needed attention. Our family wasn't very "phys-
ical," yet I felt the need to be touched a lot. So in a way
prostitution was perfect: I needed to feel sexy; I needed
people to tell me I was sexy - because I thought I was
ugly. In a way it fit my needs perfectly-that was a big
surprise!
• AJ: Then you got into making porno films-
• AS: Right; for 8 months I was an apprentice film-
maker. Weekends I worked in a massage parlor, and
during the week worked on these films where I was the
set designer, sound woman, script girl- I learned every-
thing about film; I got a full education. Eventually I
decided it would be more fun to be in/ront of the camera.
I didn't get into film for the money, because I was
making plenty of money as a whore - I just decided to do

26
it. When 1 was growing up I always thought I'd be an art
school teacher, and I remember thinking, "WelL there
goes that career - I won't ever get to teach art school if I
do porno movies!" Now, ironically I'm getting all these
offers to teach art classes becallJe of my porno past! I've
always felt I had to follow my muse, go with the flow, and
what I was really drawn to was Je,cua!ity- I wanted to
learn everything about it. I really didn't know why, but
now I do know why, and it all makes a lot of sense!
• AJ: Why?
• AS: I was afraid you were going to ask that! Why?
Because Jex i.J the nWJf intere.1ting Jubject in the wor!d! There's
a lot of excitement and controversy about sex - both pro
and con in terms of people both for and against it - also,
politically.
Sex, for me, was always spiritual- not all sexual expe-
riences were spirituaL but there were some that were
highly spiritual. For me Je,c i.J my Jpiritua! path, and my
Jpiritua! path i.J Jex! Sex led me into spirituality; I only
became interested in spirituality when 1 found out it
could be sexual. And still to this day, the closest I feel to a
Oneness and Pure Divine Love ... to Ecstasy and to
Heaven (or whatever you want to call it), is in certain
sexual situations. So that's a good reason! Plus: financial-
ly, it's a great way to make a living! There are so many
great, positive sides to it ...
• AJ: How did you get your name?
• AS: When I was a hooker I began using the name
"Annie." Then, when I started doing porno films I need-
ed a name to use on the credits. At first I used "Annie
Sands," but then realized I needed something more excit-
ing. I was lying in bed and -it's like it was channeled or
the "Goddess" gave it to me-a voice said, "Annie Sprin-
kle." It was really weird and strange.
I knew I was attracted to the sugar in the sprinkles on
ice cream cones (I'm a sugarholic). I was also attracted to Ellen Steinberg
the sound of wetneJJ - I like waterfalls, piss, vaginal fluid,
sweat, cum-anything wet. I love rain, and I practically sions-I'm not against them, I'm just not a drug lover).
grew up in a swimming pool. So "Annie Sprinkle" seemed Sugar is my biggest problem. I quit smoking 4 years ago.
perfect! 1 swim a lot; I try to exercise. When I found out that
Look at this photograph that my uncle sent me: the exercise had a lot to do with sexual energy, that's when I
gravestone of an "Annie Sprinkle" who died a hundred started exercising! And now I actually enjoy it, because I
years ago at the age of 17. Just a few months ago I visited found out that exercise could be sexual.
this gravestone which is in Baltimore. 1 have a fantasy So it's through sex that I learn about elJerything in life!
that she died a virgin, and that maybe she has something It's through sex that I see the world. And I can have a
to do with nu - that she gave me her name and guided me sexual experience with someone and realize, "Oh, now I
on my wild, wanton path ... understand why I got into that fight at the bank!" They
1 always had a strong feeling that sex was good for say that in every grain of sand is an entire universe, and I
you - that it was really healthy, and that it really made feel that way about sex-for me it's the most interesting
people feel better-and I like making other people feel way to learn about life -although I don't recommend it
better (that's the nurse in me). I really resonate with the for everyone! [laughs]
conviction that Jex maKed you Jee! better. I have a friend • AJ: Did you ever feel exploited in the sex indus-
who says it's like getting a chiropractic treatment: you try?
get a whole attitude adjustment and all your molecules • AS: I think women can feel exploited in every indus-
change-in fact everything changes-you just plain feel try! There were times I felt manipulated or exploited-
a whole lot better afterwards. So that's another reason. when I'd do something and afterwards felt sorry I'd done
• AJ: Do you live a healthy lifestyle? it. I guess I always look at the positive side; I look back at
• AS: Yes. I don't do drugs (except for special occa- what happened as a !earning e,cperience: learning what I do

27
 and don't want to do, learning how to say No, learning jill/k ,Ie:.. . (and let's face it: we're a junk sex society, just like
what I like and what I don't like, I made some mistakes. we're a junk food society). I think there's a place for junk
And I think that if I was a victim, in a sense I was just as sex-it would be: very fast and quick like MacDonald's
responsible as the victimizer-that sounds harsh, but food -very genitally focused; not very intimate; self-
whenever that happened I'm sure I created a lot of it. I ish -you wouldn't go away feeling really nourished ...
did have a low self-image and self-worth, which affected Whereas gourmet ,Ie:.. . would take a lot of time, skill and
how other people treated me. So I take responsibility for knowledge to prepare -just like a gourmet meal. It would
any exploitation that occurred. be like Tantric sex - more spiritual, holistic, loving and
At the same time we're in a patriarchal society; I was nourishing. There's also "health sex": just as you would
with a lot of men who were far less than "respectful" ... use aspirin or a medicine, you can use sex to heal.
who were abusive in some ways. But I was also very
lucky: like I said, I never got raped. I was never really
hurt - I think that emo[llllla!!y there might have been a
little psychological damage, but mostly I think I came out
a winner! Sex had nothing to do with a

t
• AJ: It seems to have been a very positive path for
relatwlUbip. I actually felt it was
you-
• AS: Yes, absolutely.
a great way to get to know people.
• AJ: Unfortunately it i.J a patriarchal society and And I wanted to learn everything
J men don't like women to own and e'YOy sex - but where about sex-- I didn't have to
does exploitation begin ... and end? Particularly if
you enjoy sex and can "own" it-
marry the guy or even like him!
• AS: What I've learned is: there are so many different
kinds of sex. And the kind of sex that's exploitative I call

"Look at this photograph that my uncle sent me: the In fact I once saved Willem de Ridder's [Amsterdam
gravestone of an 'Annie Sprinkle' who died a hundred artist, writer, performer] life. All day long we'd been
years ago at the age of 17. Just a few months ago I viJited walking around in the dust of Pompeii, so he got the
this gravestone which is in Baltimore. I have a fantasy that worst asthma attack he'd ever had. Back in the hotel
she died a virgin, and that maybe she has something to do room I tried hot compresses; I tried pounding on his
with me-that she gave me her name and guided me on my back; I tried full body massages and I swear he was going
wild, wanton path .. ."
to die - he couldn't breathe; he was turning blue. I want-
ed to take him to the hospital but he was a strict macrobi-
otic and wouldn't set foot in a hospital. So as a last resort

t
I gave him a blow job.
Obviously, neither of us were in the mood for sex
whatsoever. But we weren't inhibited, so out of last-ditch
desperation I thought, "Maybe this will work!" I started
J sucking on his cock and was really surprised when he got
a hard-on. And what happened was: the surge of sexual
energy relaxed him, it took his mind off his breathing and
had this healing effect-within twenty minutes he was
much better, and I knew he wasn't going to die.
When I had gum surgery, the transsexual Les Nichols
spent a week in bed with me. I had been given these
painkillers, but they really didn't work that well. I had
this "tinfoil" on my teeth; I looked like shit; I wasn't in the
mood for sex; I didn't feel romantic. So I simply used the
sex as a painkiller, and it worked much better-it was a
great gift!
We're a junk sex society, and just as sometimes we eat
food that's not necessarily good for us, someti.mes we
have sex that's not necessarily "good" for us. A lot of men
go to hookers and it's perhaps not that ideal Tantric

t
J
loving spiritual situation, but at least it's Jomethlizg - not
everyone has a partner they can have sex with. There are
guys who like to pick up a streetwalker and get drugs put
in their drinks-get their wallet stolen, or whatever. But

28
perhaps that's exactly what they want! I think we all
basically get what we want in terms of sex, and probably
in terms of everything else as well!
• AJ: Was there an "evolution" in the kinds of sex
you wanted?
• AS: I tried everything -well, there's still more to try,
bu t ... You can have sex for so many different reasons.
And I think the problem in society is: everyone's trying
to go for that "idealistic" kind of sex-you know: "If it's
not love, if it's not marriage then -" They're not willing
to perhaps have sex just because it feels good physically.
They have to have the whole ideal shebang-everything
besides the "ideal" is disappointing to them.
Whereas I think, "Today I can have thiJ kind of sex;
tomorrow, a different kind. Maybe next week I'll fall in
love for awhile and have a big loving spiritual experi- Sex Heals. Photo: Eric Kroll
ence ... " So I like to play with the different kinds-
there's lots of different kinds, and I think many people dolphin) you can go into total ecstasy! It's called "the
who would like to have sex miss out on this variety, wave" in Tantra. So now, sometimes I like sex just to
because they're always going for that "ideal" that's in please my body, but generally, sex has become more of a
their mind. "spiritual" act.
There's so much pain and suffering in the world that
my purpose in life is to have as much pleasure as possi-
ble-to be in erpetual pursuit of pleasure. And I take
I was attracted to the sprinkles on this very seriouslY-Its my job! We're a sex-negative
~i~~e call people who suITer "martyrs," and wecall
ice cream cones and to the sound
people who have pleasure "hedonists." We rCJpect suffer-
of welne.JcI- I like waterfalls, piss, ing but we don't respect people who are always in per-
vaginal fluid, sweat, cum- petual pursuit of pleasure. Whereas I do. ThOde are the
anything wet. So the name uAnnie Annie Sprinkle and Veronica Vera. "The School of High
Sprinkle" seemed perfect! Heel Journalism."

Some people: if they eat cookies, then they beat them-

selves up afterwards. Whereas I can eat cookies and then
go, "Okay, I wanted to have some cookies and now I feel
like shit, but what the heck -there was no stopping me; I
had to have some cookies!" The same with junk sex: how
much are you going to beat yourself up for it afterward?
Because you can get in a sexual situation and lose energy
or end up feeling not very good ... but that's part of the
learning process. It used to happen a lot, but now I'm
really sensitive. When I'm with someone I think, "Am I
going to Like being with this person, or not?" and I get
really clear so I don't end up in a "mistake" -although
there are no miJtakeJ! [laughs]
So there definitely has been an evolution. I started out
on a very physical level and had a lot of hardcore physi-
cal stimulation. Now I've evolved to learning about much
more subtle energy levels-more sensual, subtle, and
much more cosmic. I hardly feel like I need to fuck
anymore-although next month I might be into it, be-
cause things change all the time. I'm exploring a whole
new avant-garde, experimental sex. It could be sex with-
in rituaL or sex through breathing -learning about breath
was a big key, because just by undulating the body (like a

29
 might have far fewer problems.
• AS: I think they all do masturbate;
that everyone in Congress loves to mas-
turbate.
• AJ: But they don't love and re-
spect their genitals.
• AS: No, they feel guilty about
them -well, some do, some don't. As a
hooker I got pretty good at being able
to judge what men were into, sexually.
(I'm not that good at it with women, but
I've got men down.) I made a little game
out of looking at a person and "reading"
them; now I can walk down the street
and tell you exactly what a guy likes - I

t
mean, really cfOdd And it's so obvious:
anyone can pick up on these things - I
just do it more consciously.
You can sense someone's sexual en-
J ergy=.who's getting laid and who~
not. You can tell who's really lettin
their sexual energy flow, and who's not.
If somebody's very childlike, quite ot-
ten they're very gentle or masochistic.
Guys who are real macho are macho in
bed - they want to fuck you in the ass,
and they want it to hurt. Japanese are
very sensuaL very gentle, very sweet
lovers. Men who live in their "head" a
lot (who are in business, and who are
very powerful) quite often really want
"Anatomy of a Pinup Photo" by Annie Sprinkle 1991 Photo: Zorro to be dominated. But I hate to general-
ize too much ...
people I truly admire: the ones who are really having a We are animals, so we've been given a certain amount
good time - not the ones who are suffering. of instincts. And one thing: I think sex is repressed a lot,

t
J
• AJ: You have a philosophy about pleasure-
• AS: Me giving pleasure to others? A Buddhist monk
once said, "Not a butterfly flaps its wings in Kyoto that
the whole world doesn't feel it." In other words, we're all
connected. When the war in the Gulf started, I felt I was
but if we weren't repressing our sexuality, people would
think about sex even more!
• AJ: I have the feeling it would be just the opposite.
In the '50s, when people were really repressed, they
thought about sex cOlUtantly. When sex is more "natu-
really being spurred on to have more pleasure-that~' ral" and permitted, you don't always think about it.
how I could help the most. Not by going to Washington, Whereas if you're always all bottled up and tense-
because it was a very long drive and I really didn't know • AS: Maybe that's true for some people, but that wasn't
what to do once I got there. So I stayed home, had sex, my experience-when I was a teenager my repression
and enjoyed myself as much as I could-that was my came from fear and ignorance. Now I think about sex all
political statement! the time - it's like a state of being. Actually, it's not like I
• AJ: If everyone did that, we wouldn't have been in "think" about it; it's more like: everything has become
that war- much more sexual in a really nice way. People ask, "Do
• AS: Yes! Although maybe what some people consid- you mean you're horny all the time?" and I say, "No, I'm
er a good sexual experience is war. just circulating this energy, letting it out-it's not like,
• AJ: That's the tragedy-they drop a bomb with 'I've gotta have him!', 'r's like ou're condtantfydancin.9'"
some sexy woman's name written on the nose. They're • AJ: Our language for sexuality and spirituality is
taught not to value sex and pleasure in thenuelvN; it so restricted. Tantric Buddhists who sit and meditate
has to be linked to some commodity or purchasable are raising their kundalini energy which is actually

t
"experience." When Jesse Helms's censorship cam- quite sexual-they talk about this continual orgasmic
paign began, someone suggested a law be passed that state. And to refer to this we're forced to use the word
every Congressperson had to spend one day a month "sex," which ends up encompassing fifty million expe-
fondling and loving their genitals in public-then we riences-
J
50
 • AS: I consider that kind of meditation as having or breath orgasms onstage in a minute! I can do it walk-
sex-al'ant-garoe Jex. Of course it's ancient, right? Actu- ing down the street. Now I say that eCJta.Jy'.J juA a breath
ally, it would be better to call it New Ancient Sex. It's away!
very ancient, yet there's this new type of sexuality hap- • AJ: Even without a vibrator?
pening where people are playing with energy more, and • AS: Yes, we can aLL do it. And it's not a clitoral
with breath -with the spiritual aspects of sex. I think orgasm. What happens is: you start breathing it up until
that AIDS helped a lot in that sense-at least for me you reach a certain point where it:1 breathing you-it's
personally. When a dozen of my lovers got really sick doing you. And it's similar to when you're having that
and died, that made me a deeper person. clitoral orgasm: when you're no longer doing anything;
it'.J doing you. Women are capable of having 5-hour-Long or-
ga.JmJ; men are capable of hour-Long orga.JmJ. I think it's
outrageous that 50% of women have never experienced
We're a sex-negative society; we even one orgasm. According to one study, 80% of the
call people who suffer "martyrs," women in Europe between the ages of 14 and 20 have
and we call people who have had an orgasm, whereas in the United States it's only
15% - some really low figure.
p Ieasure "he d onlsts.
. "
• AJ: Can you talk about your "Post Porn Manifes-
to" and performance?
• AS: Veronica Vera wrote the manifesto. I'd been do-
ing performances for years -little ones, and that's what
My lover Marco Vassi and I were living together
my new book is about. What made me start doing this?
when he was diagnosed HIV positive-we'd been lovers
The desire to heaL ano traru/orm my Life. Before I got into
off-and-on for 10 years. I've tested negative 3 times and
"performance art" I would do fun little shows like the
have had sex with many people who've died of AIDS - I
"Bosom Ballet" (in which my breasts literally dance a
don't know why I haven't gotten it, but I haven't. So at
"ballet") at a birthday party or night club because that
first we tried not having sex, because he had AIDS and I
would get me excited -it would be fun.
didn't. We couldn't fuck or suck, and using a condom
isn't necessarily foolproof, anyway. I visited a condom
factory once and found out how many condoms have Ym-Yang Breasts Photm Mare Trunz
holes in 'em: a Lot of them!
So we started to explore sex on other levels; to expand
our concept of sex. It became not so much about fucking
and sucking, but about energy and intimacy. We started
learning about Tantric and Taoist and Native American
techniques. We'd do breathing and eye gazing; we'd set
the timer for a half-hour and just sit and look into each
other's eyes. And we were being LoverJ, we were turned
on to each other, and it became so erotic that we didn't
even have to fuck -when that timer went off we felt like
we'd been fucking for half an hour. We were experiment-
ing, and AIDS helped-because we couldn't always go
back to myeLit and hiJ cock. So together we reallyexpand-
ed our concept of sex.
• AJ: This is so important: expanding the concept of
all that sex can encompass-
• AS: Many people don't breathe during sex, yet ifyou
get really energetic sex going, it's the breathing heavy
that makes you feel good -that moves the energy. I've
been practicing just breathing myself into orgasm -which
I'm getting better at doing, and which performance real-
ly helps, because at the end of my performance, I use a
vibrator and do a masturbation ritual. If there's 400
people in the audience sending me energy and I'm on-
stage with a vibrator-we're circulating energy. I have to
(in 15 minutes) go into total ecstasy and (hopefully)
orgasm. Doing performances put me in a situation where
I had to learn fast, so I've gotten really good at "breath-
ing sexual energy." Now I can go into fuJI body orgasms

51
 ploitative remarks like, "Come on. Annie, we'll pay you
an extra ten dollars if you do that anal sex scene!"
Then I did a performance where I played the tape.
gagged on this huge dildo. and just got in touch with the
pain of those hundred blow jobs. I really cried and it
came from my gut; it was very visceral. All the sexual
abuse I'd ever suffered came out of my throat; I gagged-
really gagged. After I did that for awhile and the tape
stopped, ] did a healing ceremony for myself. I'd been
having gum problems and my feeling was: it was from
those lousy hundred blow jobs. So I put ground-up
carrot on my gums and teeth. burned some herbs. and
healed myself. And that was my performance -] felt
really good afterwards.
Annie Sprinkle's "Pornstistics."

~
Then I started working with Linda Montano-that's
when ] began learning how you can transform issues in
your life through a performance. For example, Linda
J said, "] want you to do a performance about the worst
thing that ever happened to you in your life." I'd always
done performances about what JUIl life is, so ] had to
think - I had a week to prepare. Nothing horrible's ever
happened to me! I had my tonsils out but 1 don't remem-
ber that; I've never had surgery; I've never been in an
accident; I've never really experienced pain; I've never
been raped-nothing horrible has ever happened to me.
I've never been really scared; I've had this really lucky
life.
So I thought. "What can I do this performance about?"
Finally 1 realized, "Okay. 1 guess the worst thing that
ever happened to me was when ] was working as a
hooker and guys were judgmental or abusive or angry or This got worked into more performances. and Emilio
greedy . . . when 1 loved and trusted them. and they Cubeiro (who was my director) came up with a good idea:
make a board with lots of dildoes attached, so that I suck

~
all these different dildos of all sizes and colors. I did that;
I'd cry and gag and really get in touch with the pain each
My lover Marco Vassi and I were time. and people in the audience would cry because they
could relate to this-especially women; this was a scene
J living together when he was
primarily for women who'd been in the sex industry. And
diagnosed HIV positive. We after a dozen times I would no longer cry or gag - because
started to explore sex on other I'd transformed and exorcised that demon. Now] feel
levels. It became not so much free-free from all that abuse I suffered ...
• AJ: This is good shamanistic therapy: you're exor-
about fucking and sucking, but
cising the demons for other people as well as your-
about energy and intimacy. self-
• AS:. I learn things when I do this.
• AJ: Where did you study with Linda Montano?
• AS: Upstate ew York-every summer she invites
fucked me over; they hurt me." people up to her home. Each day you work on a different
So 1 did a performance called "A Hundred Blow chakra. and each day you do a performance -or two or
Jobs," because out of the two or three thousand blow three or five! And for a week it's the best place to be in
jobs I'd given. a hundred had been really lousy-really the world -anywhere Linda teaches] try to go, because
horrible experiences where I'd cry afterwards. 1 made a a lot of the seeds of my performances come from associa-
tape of all these abusive remarks I'd heard, like. "Suck it. tion with her-she just totally inspires me to think of

-
you bitch!" or "Yeah, I bought you dinner -you JhouLd good ideas. and do them!
suck my cock!" or "You're going to hell for this!" or a • AJ: How did you begin collaborating with Emilio
woman saying. "I hope she gets AIDS!" or "She's such a Cubeiro?
J .,flit!" ] filled a cassette with angry. judgmental, or ex- • AS: A friend of mine who was a lap-dancer/stripper

52
saved all her dollar tips and bought a building for a peace, love and freedom. Annie Sprinkle likes an animal
million dollars! It's called the" Harmony Burlesque The- attraction; Anya likes a spiritual connection. Annie Sprin-
ater," next to the Franklin Furnace. She'd seen some of kle loves men; Anya loves men but absolutely adores
my performances and offered me a show. I'd always women. Annie Sprinkle is a modern woman; Anya is
wanted to put all my performances together and do a ancient. Annie Sprinkle likes sex with transsexuals, midg-
whole evening starring me! And I'd seen the piece Emilio ets and amputees; Anya makes love to the sky, mud and
had done with Lydia Lunch -it blew my mind, it was so trees. Annie Sprinkle masturbates; Anya meditates while
good! I ran into Emilio and he said he'd direct my piece; she masturbates. Of course, Anya i.J today only because
we set a date, mailed out invitations, and rehearsed for Annie Sprinkle Il'll..' yesterday."
about a month. He taught me a lot about theater. That
was a year and a half ago; the piece has evolved a lot
since then.
Basically, it's a story of my sexual evolution. It starts The reason I got out of porn and
out with how Ellen Steinberg became Annie Sprinkle. I moved into art is because there's
used slides, and wrote a little piece about it:
more room for experimentation in
"I was born 'Ellen Steinberg' but I didn't like being
Ellen very much so I invented 'Annie Sprinkle.' Ellen art - I can be mYclelf.
was excruciatingly shy; Annie was an exhibitionist. Ellen
was fat and ugly and unattractive and no one seemed to
want her, but Annie was voluptuous and sexy and every- L
one seemed to want her. Ellen desperately needed atten- So the show tells the story of my evolution through
tion; Annie Sprinkle got it. Ellen had to wear ugly slides and performances. I've grown to know and love
orthopedic shoes and flannel nightgowns, but Annie got and accept Ellen Steinberg now. Because previously, I
to wear six-inch spiked high heels and fetish lingerie. totally denied her and became everything that she
Ellen was scared of boys and absolutely terrified of sex, wasn't - I became her total oppo.Jite.
but Annie was fearless. Ellen was dull; Annie was excit- • AJ: And Anya is the integration of both?
ing. Ellen was a nobody from the suburbs of Los Ange- • AS: Anya is neither Ellen nor Annie Sprinkle; a whole
les; Annie Sprinkle got a little bit famous and people new person evolved. But Annie still pops up every so
even stopped her and asked her for autographs. Ellen often, and even Ellen Steinberg pops up-they're all still
Steinberg sometimes still wants to get married and have around, but Anya's more where I want to be. Anya's
really exciting-a goddess . . . older and Wiser, more
intelligent.
• AJ: This is a journey into the self-
• AS: That's what the performances are about: mYdelf.
All I do is talk about myself. I'm political in that sex is
politicaL but it's all about my sexuality.
• AJ: "The personal is political": if your personal
life isn't together, how can you change the world?
• AS: I guess that's true ... Maybe there's a little
porn star in some ofyou (or maybe not), but there's a lot
of "you" in every porn star. In other words, I found out
that being in prostitution was nothing like it's portrayed
in the movies-the reality was so different. I just loved

children, but Annie Sprinkle wants fame and fortune

and a career. After all these years I've finally come to
realize that Ellen Steinberg really must be Annie Sprin-
kle, and the truth is, Annie Sprinkle really is Ellen Stein-
berg."
Now, the show (and my life) has evolved to the point
where I've invented a new personality. After 19 years of
being "Annie Sprinkle," now there's "Allya'~'
"Annie Sprinkle loves everybody; Anya loves herself.
Annie Sprinkle seeks attention; Anya seeks awareness.
Annie Sprinkle is a feminist; Anya is a goddess. Annie
Sprinkle wants a career, fame and fortune; Anya wants
L
Computer graphics by Greg Garvey
55
 the women I met. As a result of that I did a "Sluts and other kinds: energy orgasms, breath orgasms, kundalini
Goddesses" workshop that's about exploring the differ- orgasms, heart orgasms, Third Eye orgasms ... it's like:
ent sexual personalities inside yourself, and accepting things really kick off! Plus, the energy of being onstage is
them. so incredible; it's like my favorite sexual experience. To
• AJ: What else is in your show? tell the truth, I do the whole show just so I can do the
• AS: I also did a piece illustrated with statistical graphs masturbation ritual at the end - that's like my payoff!
called "Amount of Cock Sucked." I figured that all the That's what I get off on - it's such a turn-on. But also, I
cocks I'd sucked, if laid end to end, would equal the feel it's important that people hear the sound of an or-
height of the Empire State Building! Plus, I show my gasm -it's like hearing a baby cry; it's a very pure, heal-
cervix to the audience. And that's really a fun piece-it ing sound.
sounds sleazy and shocking, but it's very sweet and inno- I think it's important that people see the power of a
cent. People are shocked that they aren't shocked! Ifyou woman's sexuality. And I'm used to showing my sexuali-
hear about it, you might go, "Gh - that's gross, that's ty open ly, so I make a lot of noise, I do a lot of breathing,
disgusting; how can she do that?" I show a chart of the I become an animal, I become a goddess, I get pretty
Female reproductive system (now I can say "cervix" and wild, and I think that a lot of people have never seen that.

~
"fallopian tube" in four languages) and I show what to And I've had some of the best orgasms of my liFe at the
look for: the cervix. end of the show, literally! I just totally go Ollt, because of
the energy of being onstage: everyone there is supporting
me. Plus, whenever I enter a new theater I call upon
J Tantric spirits and Taoist spirits and old sexy spirits for
In a way I wanna say, '~u.ck you guidance and to have sex with me.
guyd . . . . . you wanna see pussy? It feels like ecstasy-it's not like doing a live sex show.
I'll show you pussy! " It's not like being in a porno movie; to me it's a whole
other reality: the sexuality of Anya, the sexuality of a
more mature woman. I'm not being anyone else's fantasy;
I'm being myself. I try to be totally honest in myexpres-
Why do I show my cervix? I tell the audience that the sions and my feelings . . .
reason I show my cervix is: 1) because it's fun - and I • AJ: How did that evolution come about-from be-
think fun is really important, and 2) because the cervix is ing other people's fantasies to becoming Anya?
so beautiful that I really want to share that with people. • AS: I think I personally paid my debt; I can't be
There are other reasons: I think it's important to demysti- other people's fantasies anymore -well, occasionally I
fY women's bodies. It wasn't until recently that anyone can! But certainly not that mainstream middle-class av-
was allowed to Look. at pussy - really get down and look at erage American fantasy-I just can't do that anymore.
them. A lot of women have never even seen their' own! Take go-go girls - they dance that way because they're

~
And the other little thing is: in a way I wanna say, "Fuck being paid to do this-you can make good money being
you guys -you wanna see pussy, I'Ll show you pussy!" someone else's fantasy; that's what your job is. You can
So, I put a speculum in and have an usher help police also learn for yourself along the way; you can get turned
the line, because usually about a third of the audience on gyrating your hips and use those feelings to nurture
J gets up and wants to take a look! Hundreds-they aLL
want to see it! And I don't act embarrassed; I don't act
"I teIl the audience that the reason 1 show my cervix is:
like it's anything abnormal, shocking or strange-and 1) because it's fun-and 1 think fun is really important,
suddenly, neither do they! and 2) because the cervix is so beautiful that 1 reaIly want
Usually a few people are shocked. But I think that ifI to share that with people. There are other reasons: 1 think
took the time, el'eryol/e would get up and look. They look it's important to demystifY women's bodies."
inside, and I have the microphone by their mouth, and Photo: Leslie Barony
they say, "Wow! That's beautiful! Thankyou so much!"
They speak their reactions into the microphone; it's like
playing doctor-it's very playful and funny and fun. I like
the fact that this creates a bizarre reality-like, "Isn't this
a world?" Because here people are invited into my world
where sex is okay, and the body's not dirty or shameful,
and where you can play. A Few people walk out -I guess
they can't take it, it's not for everybody - but mostly
they're sitting there laughing, surprised that they aren't

~
shocked.
Then I do a masturbation ritual with the vibrator and
the breathing and usually I have an orgasm. I'm just now
getting to where I can have clitoral orgasms on top of the
J
54
 Photos: Leslie Barany

"I did a performance called 'A Hundred Blow Jobs' where I played a tape of all the abusive remarks I'd heard, like, 'Suck
it, you bitch!' and I sucked on all these different dildoes. I'd cry and gag and really get in touch with the pain each time.
After a dozen times I would no longer cry or gag - because I bad tran./formelJ and exorcwelJ that demon."

yourself, but mainly your job is: you're working for them. into women - 1 still like some men occasionally ... but
And the reason 1 got out of porn and moved into art is very few.
because in art there's more room for experimentation- • AJ: I think that as women get more in control of
in art 1 can be mYJelf 1 can be as weird as 1 want to be, themselves and understand themselves better, they
and 1 don't have to please anybody but myself! [laughs] find it very difficult to get just basic human consider-
And that's really good. ations from men-
• AS: Well, I don't know if it's that! I just think that
I've sort of fallen more in love with mYJelf. And being
with women is like loving yourself a little more ... than
I know my show has inspired a being with men, which is like loving JifferenceJ in the
world. Lately, 1 really like women's bodies because they're
lot of people. It's inspired women a whole new challenge, a whole new area to learn about-
much more than men, and it's unexplored territory! Even though I've had sex with a
really nice to communicate for couple hundred women over the years, my heart wasn't
women or to work With into it - it was a physical kind of thing or it was in movies
or I was being paid to do it. 1 experimented a little bit,
women -- not men. but it never meant much. Now it's like I'm in love with
women! And I probably have some emotional wounds
from years of being with men -which I'm not ready to
face.
Anyway, at the end 1 go into this totally other world- But there's a few men I like! My last lover, Les Ni-
as far as 1 can go sexually (and it gets better and better- chols, was a transsexual: a woman who became a man,
it's like forced learning-well, some days the energy's and that was quite nice. He's wild -very wild. He looked
low). And I've learned not to have sex beforehand; 1 save like a man (on the street, you'd never know that he
up all my sexual feelings for that scene-otherwise 1 wasn't a man) but he had a cock and a pussy-both. He
wouldn't have that same power. So when I'm traveling, had a cock that was surgically constructed, but kept his
all the sex 1 have is onstage. Of course I feel that just female organs intact. And he was very into S&M ...
walking down the street or communing with a tree or very sensual- he abused his hormones and took way too
being by a fountain (I really get turned on by fountains) many, so he was always horny. And what a performance
is having sex. But "actual physical partner sex?" -never artist - this person was so off the wall!
when I'm performing. Actually, I should Never Say Never! We made a video in which he talked mainly about
• AJ: Do you feel it was necessary to be all those transsexual ism (leaving out his more "outrageous" side),
male fantasies in order to finally become yourself? but he's the kinkiest person I've ever met-and also one
• AS: For me it was. Some people know what they of the sexiest. He's with another woman now; he's not in
want and who they are right away, but 1 didn't. 1 wanted my life at the moment - 1 gave him to this other woman
to understand Sex and Society; 1 wanted to understand because I wasn't getting anything done. We were having
men's sexuality, because that's what 1 was most afraid of too much sex all the time - I'm not kidding. He didn't
as a teenager. Once 1 learned about that, 1 felt safe that it work, he just hung out, and all he wanted to do was have
was time to move on. Now, ironically, I'm much more sex, and I always agreed -

55
Anya, a Goddess. "After 19 years of being 'Annie Sprinkle', now there's 'Anya'. Anya is neither Photo: Rick Silvarnes ..

Ellen nor Annie; a wbole /lew perJO/l evolved. Anya's really exciting-a goddess ... older and
wiser, more intelligent."

56
 • AJ: Did you know him before the operation?
• AS: No, but after the surgery I was the first woman
he tried his new penis out with. He's a total masochist,
but with his own style and his own ideas-for example
he likes to be "installed" in the furniture for days at a
time. I've found it's unusual to find a woman that kinky
or fetishistic. And he's a total foot fetishist. Sometimes I'd
want him to sleep next to me and I'd command, "Come
up here!" yet 5 minutes later he'd be back down by my
feet - he slept at my feet or tinder the bed, kind of like a
cat. Then he'd want to be shut up in the closet-I just
had to give him a little water once in a while. He liked to
be walked on, too. And here I was, a New Age girl (I
thought I'd become more "spiritual," more "Tantric,"
more about the "heart" and "Jove") -and I end up falling
in love with this kinky masochist! He didn't want to hear,
"I love you!" he wanted me to say, "I hate you! Fuck
you -you piece of shit!" That meant "I love you!" to him.
This was a whole other learning experience, because I
wanted to please this person-he really turned me on.
That's when 1 learned that the "Slut" or the "Whore" side
is just as valid and wonderful and perfect as the "God-
dess" or the "Spiritual" side ... one is not better than
the other, they're just different-it's your intentlon that
matters. Because when 1 said, "Fuck you - I hate you!"
he knew that meant, "I love you!" And having learned Pboto: Eric Kroll

about "affirmation" and "positive thinking," this went

totally against my grain. But here again I had to go with think that everyone's really Bisexual; kinky people think
my muse, go with my feelings, and my feelings were that they're the liberated ones and that everybody else
saying, "Step on him! Kick him! Because that's what he really wants to be kinky, and monogamous ones think,
likes!" And !liked it too when I did it! "People can't be happy if they're not monogamous-you
I'd never want to hurt himfor rea!, but we played with hape to have monogamy." So everyone's trying to make
a lot of violent fantasies, and a lot of pain and piercing each other just like them. Whereas my feeling is, "It's
and every kinky thing you could think of-but I was much nicer just to accept our differences ... to enjoy
getting this new awareness. Because in reality, putting our differences." 1 lik.e Jesse Helms.
him in the closet is no different from a Vision Quest out • AJ: Yes, but Jesse Helms would like to Jhutyou up.
in the woods overnight! And walking on him in high He'd like you to stop what you're doing-
heels isn't all that different from a shiatsu massage! So it's • AS: Right, and I think that makes it more interest-
our judgments of these things that get in the way-the ing. 1 taught a class recently on the history of "Sex and
problem is not our "Slut" side but our jildgmentJ of our Performance Art," and no one was "against" it, there was
"Slut" side. Because we all have different sexual sides or no controversy-it was a boring class! Usually someone
personalities: sometimes we want to be real animalistic will ask, "Well, what about child pornography?" or "1
and down-and-dirty and raunchy, and other times we don't like that garter belt you're wearing because it sym-
want a more "spiritual" experience. (Well, some people bolizes the subjugation of women" -but not this time!
are happy with one thing all their lives - or two or three I'm glad there are Jesse Helmses in the world, and I'm
things ... and there's others of us who change week-to- glad there's Women Against Pornography, and I'm glad
week or month-to-month or even several times in a night!) there are people that aren't like me, otherwise 1 think it'd
So at last I learned how to really accept my extremes. I be pretty boring.
had already done a lot of kink; I'd worked as a domina- • AJ: Yes, but nothing's happened to you: you're not
trix. And I was judgmental of that when I became a New injai', you're not like Lenny Bruce who was fighting
Age girl. So it took Les Nichols to get me back into not "obscenity" charges-
judging-just going with the feeling ... replacing judg- • AS: Well, I don't look. for that kind of thing; I stay out
ments with acceptance and compassion. of trouble. I was arrested once - for sodomy, conspiracy
I think that in terms of society in general, Jesse Helms to commit sodomy, and for amputee sex (for a magazine 1
wants everyone to be like him; and we want Jesse Helms was editing). But the charges were dropped. I've never
to be like llJ • . . which is ridiculous because everyone's been arrested for prostitution - I've been very lucky. But
.. different. The Gays think that everyone's kind of Gay, I kind of feel like the world is perfect, just the way it is
you know (or that everyone has that side); the Bisexuals . . . in a way. And I still do what I do.

57
Annie says of her last lover, Les Nichols, "He is a transsexual: a woman who became a man. Photo: Vivien Maracevic

He's wild-very wild. He has a cock and a pussy-botb. He's the kinkiest lover I've ever
met- and also one of the sexiest."

• AJ: So far we've been "indulged"; we haven't gone • AJ: There's something about "positive energy" that
through Fascism as in Nazi Germany; we haven't gone definitely helps grease you through life!
through McCarthyism at this point, and just because • AS: I've been very lucky. Look at Larry Flynt-you
they've stoppt-:d a few NEA grants-well, nobody's can get shot and even killed! There are people out there
gone to jail yet. But there is a momentum in this who don't want women masturbating on stage and call-
country pushing in that direction and it's getting scary. ing on spirits and going out of their bodies and having
2 Live Crew were arrested-even though fortunately orgasms that last longer than theirs do! And I enjoy the
they were released. The photographer Jock Sturges controversy and excitement-at least I want to, other-
could be going to jail-it's estimated that the FBI has wise I can't do it. I can't get up there on stage if I'm really
spent over $2 million of taxpayers' money trying to scared of that repression. And if it gets too hot in the
"frame" him. If Helms had his druthers ... kitchen I'm going to get out! I'm not into being a martyr,
• AS: Well, that's my way of coping with the problem: or being arrested -I'll change what I do. If I go too far
"Thanks for the publicity, Jesse!" And another side of
me is thinking, "Jesus -I know they're going to burn me Les ichols has a surgically constructed penis as well as
at the stake!" But my way of coping is to say that it's his original female organs.
reallY/lin! Even though I do get scared at times, I try not _..--------........
to. It is scary. I did have my freedom taken away once for
a couple days in jail, and I was quite blown away. But I
don't want to put energy into the idea that this might
happen to me - I'll move to another freakin' cou ntry; I'll
just move. I'm going to continue having a good time.
• AJ: It is crazy to live in fear of something that
hasn't happened yet-
• AS: Nothing's happened, but I think that's partly
because I was never afraid. I know women working in
the same places I did who have been arrested 5 or 6
times-they were so afraid of being arrested, that they
",ere arrested!

58
I'll drop back a little bit - for a wbiLe.
• AJ: But what you're doing is so healing for others.
People all over the United States need to see your
show. And you have a big heart, too; you enjoy giving
sex to-
• AS: The needy - a lot of mercy fucks! I've gotten a lot
of positive response; I know my show has inspired a lot of
people. It's inspired women much more than men, and it's
really nice to communicate for women or to work ,pitb
women - not men, for a while. And my show has especial-
ly helped women who've been in the sex industry.
• AJ: How many performance artists have been in
the sex industry?
• AS: Almost all the top women performance artists
have told me (because I've met all my favorites) that they
were in the sex industry as streetwalkers, go-go dancers,
etc. I think that the sex industry is a much bigger funder
of the arts than the NEA- I'm sure of it!
• AJ: If you're a creative and independent woman-
well, in the "olden days" you really had only two
choices: to be a wife/mother or a whore-there wasn't
really much of a middle ground ...
• AS: The book Se.-I: Work cites this statistic: globally,
one out of ten women has been in the sex industry. And
that's a lot! I'm so open about this that people come out of
the woodwork all the time and confess what they did 10
years ago - people you wouldn't expect: your sisters, your Photo: Dona Ann McAdams

brothers, your mothers, your fathers -people all over.

cause people are going to be looking inside me. / like all
the flavors and smells and tastes inside my pussy, but not
everyone likes them, so I take a little douche.
I like to go where 1'm wanted; I
If I have to pee I just say, "Oh excuse me; I have to
don't like to rub things in people's take a little pee," and it's like being in my home: if you
faces---if tbey don't want me to put have to pee at my house, you don't have to close the door.
my tit.f on peopled beadd, I won't! And nobody in the audience is shocked -they might be
kind of amazed that I'm peeing-they're trying to re-
member, "Aren't you not supposed to do that?" but I do it
very innocently, it's not like [bellows], 'TM GOING TO
• AJ: Didn't you do a show in Cleveland? PEE ONSTAGEI" It's meant to be a natural part of
• AS: Yes, there were police in the audience and I life -we have the toilet on stage, and I use toilet paper; I
would have been arrested if I had showed my cervix, or wipe - it's all very nice! I do it to defuse the issue; to
posed for polaroids with my tits on people's heads at show that it's not shocking-we've all seen people pee.
intermission. I didn't want to be arrested so I decided not But then of course, if you bear about it, you're either
to do it, because I was on my way to Europe. I like to go going to be horrified ... or run out and buy a ticket!
where I'm ",anted; I don't like to rub things in people's [laughs]
faces - if tbey don't want me to put my titJ on people J beaoJ, / • AJ: You were talking about pursuing more sex
,"on'tl [laughs] But the show became about censorship: I research-
talked about how I couldn't do my fulL planned perfor- • AS: Ifyou asked me, "What do you do?" I'd say that
mance. Everyone in the audience wanted to see my cer- I'm a sex researcher. That's what I've devoted my life to,
vix-too bad. Now a lot of places are afraid to book me; I and it looks like that's what I'm going to continue doing:
don't have any shows scheduled right now in the U.S., researching sex ... my own sexuality, other people's,
just in Europe - it's really easy in Europe! sex in ancient society, sex all over the world. People I
I think people hear about what I do and are horrified meet just tend to tell me everything about themselves
and shocked: "Oh, she masturbates on stage; she sucks sexually, because - that's all I talk about, so they talk
on dildoes; she shows her cervix - it sounds disgusting; it about it too! I'm still learning, exploring, thinking about,
sounds really sleazy!" Yet those descriptions take every- talking about, and researching through video and pho-
thing out of context. For example, before I show my tography ... aLL ahout Je,i:1 • • •
cervix I take a douche -a very nice little douche - be-

39
 Deep !Jz"i()e Annlr Sprtizkle. Full length 35mm film, written, Has written over 300 articles on sex for Penthowe, Hwtle/; C/Jeri,
directed by & starring Annie Sprinkle. Adam, Sftzq, Vell'et, etc. Has produced 11 audiotapes for the
ConJenftiZ9 ndultJ. Full length 35mm docudrama conceived, Radio Art Foundation, Amsterdam. Has lectured at Tyler
casted by & co-directed by Annie Sprinkle. University, Museum of Modem Art (NYC), Columbia Uni-
Producer: Gerard Damiano. versity, etc. B.F.A., School of Visual Arts, l\TY. Attended 3
An/lie. Ten minute 16mm film by Monika Treut. about sessions at Linda lVlontano's Summer Saint Camp, Kingston,
how Ellen Steinberg becomes Annie Sprinkle. NY. Chairperson of PO.NY (Prostitutes of New York).
Illy Father /., Coming. 16mm feature film by Monika Treut; Has appeared in Chert; HI.qh Society, Club, Playboy, Pent-
Annie has a leading role. hOIMe Forum, Natumal Lampoon, and posed for painter Al-
ice Neel and photographer Joel-Peter Witkin.
Teaches workshops for women called Slut" d COded,'e,' d
Rite,1 of Pa,Mimz. Written, directed & edited by Annie and Sacred Se,'I:.
Veronica Vera, produced by Candida Royalle.
Linda/Le" dAnnie-the Fir"t Female lOll/ale Tran"de,\'llal

t
Lol'e Story. Docudrama written, co-directed & co- 101 Ude.) For Se.."C or WIJY Sex U dO Important
edited by Annie, featuring Les Nichols & Annie. by Annie Sprinkle
The Sprinkle Salon. 6 month weekly NY Cable TV show.
J The Slut" d COdeJde" Vweo Workdhop. Co-directed with 1. Sex as a sedative. It helps you go to sleep.
Maria Beatty. 1992 2. Sex to fight addictions. It helped me quit smoking.
3. Sex as a laxative. Regular sex helps you have regular
Portrait of a Porno Star, Inmo"t, //1,IWe, nnl1le Sprinkle. 68 shits.
minutes, directed by Michelle Auder. 4. Sex to get to know somebody. You can tell a lot about a
Deep DeconAructulIZ. One hour documentary by Steven person by fucking them.
5. Sex as a meditation.
Kolpan. 6. Sex to relieve boredom.
Current Flow. Safe lesbian sex demonstration. 7. Sex to improve concentration.
8. Sex to make money.
9. Sex to create magic. Some witches believe that the most
powerful time to cast a spell is during orgasm.
Sprinkle Report. Newsletter devoted to Piss Art, wlWillem 10. Sex for manipulation. It can get you what you want.
de Ridder. 11. Sex as a reward. Either to yourself or to someone else.
12. Sex for relaxation.
Annlr Sprtizkle Hot Shit Book. 80 page magazine, published 13. Sex for rejuvenation. It keeps you looking and feeling
by LOVE magazine. younger.
Annlr Sprinkle'" ABC StudY of Se;wal Lwt d Del'Uztion,', 14. Sex to increase energy. A great pick-me-up.
IS. Sex to cure an asthma attack. I saved a man's life once.
published by R. Mutt Press. 16. Sex to make you laugh. It can be hilarious.
A/1/lle SprinkLe'" B=oombaJ. Magazine from Red Lion. 17. Sex as a gift. A present For birthdays, anniversaries. Bar
The Kinky World of Annlr Sprinkle. 48 page magazine from Mitzvas...

t
18. Sex to get high.
Hudson Communications. 19. Sex to achieve an altered state.
Lol'e 85; Po"t Art Art in America. 86 page magazine about 20. Sex to create life.
Annie & Veronica Vera, designed by Willem de 21. Sex for waking up. Helps get rid of that groggy feeling.
J Ridder, published by LOVE magazine.
22. Sex to cure back pain.
23. Sex to keep warm in the winter.
PMt Pom Il10derniA. A book published by Torch Gallery. 24. Sex as a pain killer. It's far more potent that aspirin.
and most prescription pain killers.
Some Live Performance" 25. Sex as an anti-depressant. It will cheer you up.
26. Sex For stress red uction.
"Strip Speak," burlesque performances at various the- 27. Sex as a spiritual experience.
aters across the USA. 28. Sex for exercise. It's aerobic and burns calories.
29. Sex for thrills and adventure.
"The Prometheus Project." Directed by Richard Schech- 30. Sex to relieve headaches. Even migraines.
ner, at Performing Garage in NYC. 31. Sex as a cure for writer's block.
"Deep Inside Porn Stars." With 6 other women at Fran- 32. Sex as a good deed. Give the needy an occasional
mercy fuck.
klin Furnace, NYc.
33. Sex as an art form. It can be very creative and a
"Sex Three." By Linda Montano, performed in Cleve- great way to express oneself.
land, Ohio. 34. Sex to control appetite. It can be so filling.
35. Sex for cardiovascular health.
"Annie Sprinkle-Post Porn Modernist." One woman
36. Sex to create intimacy.
play/performance written and performed by An- 37. Sex as an expression of love.
nie, first directed by Emilio Cubeiro, later by Wil- 38. Sex for itching mosquito bites. Apply your own sperm
to affiicted areas.
[em De Ridder. Performed at the Kitchen,
39. Sex for barter. Trade it for all kinds of things.
LaMaMa, Joseph Papp Theater (NYC); LeKliene

t
J
Comedie Theater (Amsterdam); Schmidt Theater
(Hamburg); COCA (Seattle).
40. Sex to get in touch with emotions, like sadness.
41. Sex to avoid working. [ can always finish this some
other time.

40
 When the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA) censored performance
artist Karen Finley, she became a cause celebre. Attacked by Jesse Helms
for her live performances which involve partial nudity, political satire, social
criticism and the exploration of sexual taboos, she replied, "I use certain
language that is a symptom of the violence of the culture. If I talk about a
woman being raped, I have to use the language of the perpetrators." The
content of her performances (dealing with child abuse, wife-beating, sexism,
suicide, abortion, homophobia, racism, dysfunctional families and addiction
in general) was generally overlooked, as was the seriousness of her
commitment to exposing moral, cultural and social decay - always, however,
with irony and black humor.
Karen's performances are moving and powerful. With passion and anger
she gives voice to the alienated and dispossessed: "A lot of people feel the
same way I do, but they keep it in because it's socially unacceptable to mourn
in public or to show feelings. If you did, you'd be vulnerable or abandoned-
maybe no one would love you. But I have the ability to reveal my feelings-
so in a sense, I'm getting even. Revenge can be art."
In addition to hundreds of performances over the past decade~ Karen has
released videos, disco/spoken word albums, and created paintings, drawings,
sculptures and installations. Her book of monologues and short stories,
Shock Treatment, was recently published by City Lights Books. Currently
she lives in upstate New York.

-------.-,.,~r c.-

• ANDREA JUNO: How did your childhood shape I grew up hearing Martin Luther King and Jesse Jack-
you? son. I started working for Operation PUSH on the week-
• KAREN FINLEY: Fortunately, I grew up in a uni- ends-we'd do neighborhood breakfast programs and
versity town where education was the Number One pri- collect food for them. Later on I was in "Punks for
ority. Like many children, I remember always feeling Peace" and other groups ...
"different" -like a loner. As soon as I started school I Now I'm creating work that has "social conscious-
began "taking a stance" -perhaps because my parents ness" -that deals with the true hi.Jtory of aedthetlcJ. Be-
were so outspoken in their social convictions. In my cause these are not my aesthetics -they have been given
family, if you saw someone hurting, you would go help to us by men for thousands of years. You go into muse-
that person -you would put yourself out. ums or read "histories of art" and women just aren't
At home, if there was a racist comment, that person included-you only see women as the "Nude" or as the
was thrown out of the house -physically. That's just how Object of Desire, really. And I can't create work that
it was: you woufd put yourdefj 0/1 the fine. My mother was would contribute to or encourage that "aesthetic" -with
very involved in environmental issues like banning DDT; all its underlying hatred and misogyny.

41
 Photo: Dona Ann McAdams

When I was growing up, I thought that a lot of artists So I made a conscIOus decision to do something that
were women - for example, I thought Jean Dubuffet was a couldn't be bought or sold that easily.
woman! I remember doing drawings in the first grade The trouble with museums and the history of "aesthet-
and because I "showed promise," the nuns encouraged ics" (in terms of writing, music, dance, theater, film,
me in the arts. I think they were struggling with "libera- television, and popular culture) is: women really are
tion" themselves; they told me, "This is the first time in restricted to certain identities. fu example Ma onna, as
history that women have had so many opportunities ... much as she is her own woman in certain situations, has
however, you really are going to have to work." I was only basically just exploited what was ex-pected of her as a
7 years old, but this had quite an impact on me. female. And in some ways that's sad. I feel she's very
Something else that really had a big impact on me was talented and a good businesswoman and has style and is
seeing the Chicago 1968 Democratic Convention riots very generous, but she still exploits "what's expected of a
and demonstrations on TV while I was having a slumber woman." And that's something I'm out to ;Je,/troy: looking
party-immediately everything changed for me. I re- at the woman as an object first-which encourages that
member seeing the "Chicago Seven" talk at town meet- whole sexual violence that women live with.
ings, and they became my heroes. For the first time I felt ~as really upset when the NEA tried to censure my_
the excitement of the possibility for political change. work as "obscene," because I think my work is extremely
When I started attending art school, 1 didn't have the moral. I'm trying to speak out about sexual violence and
money to fully work on my craft the way other people how hateful that is, and make it llIu)er,Jtandable. Yet many
did. And I thought this was wrong: just because I came times I'~ just viewed as "hysterical" -as a sexual deviant
from a working class background, I couldn't afford to be who's "out of her mind." But people still use stereotypes
an artist?! of women - if a woman doesn't fit one pattern, they'll fit
• AJ: You have a sensitivity toward "lower-class" her into another. And in the process they'll use some
women that's very powerful in your work. In America really ugly names ...
the class system is never spoken about, yet it blatantly • AJ: That's how women are marginalized. There
exists. In a lot of feminist discussions this is neglected - are very few places for women -unless you're a "quiet
• KF: I think so. And I was determined to make a mark good girl" you're going to fall off into the periphery.
for my gender-to have someone listen. I didn't want to ~eJLYou are onstage, you almost hiXom.e the abuse SQ.
channel my "art" into a painting that some rich person that we're able to critically examine it. How do your
~ld buy ~ hang in his study and then close the door. Performances evolve?

42
 • KF: I do a lot of psychic work. Many times when
people just walk by I can pick up energies or see or feel
other things, like a medium. I like to look at my work as a
ritual or ceremony that's more pagan - before the idea of
the "One Male God" emerged. In Brazil there's an Afri-
can/Indian religion where women dress in white, take on"
"evil spirits" and "shake it out." I feel J sort of do that. In
my performance I wish I could relieve the audience of its
suffering, but for women, that's really what relationships
are about: somehow feeLing the suffering and being the
nurturer; somehow letting those feelings come through
so they can be dealt with. I want to expose that private,
secret process in public.
In theater, I could never have anyone see me being
raped. That ~uIdbe degrading, futile, and would only
-contribute to a perpetuation of oppression -it would be
~ like co-opting someone else's pain. There's no rea-
~n to see the act; it's more important to deal with what
you're left with after the act:. So I want to show what that
--;;- a day-to-day feeling of de.Jpair which I think many
oppressed people live with in this culture ... the reality
that: women (or gays or people of color) don't have the
same freedom as men to just walk down a dark street-
because that fear is such a daily part of life.
Fear has really repressed us; for thousands of years
we've just been trying to "maintain" -keep plodding
along. But we've got to get rid of this -we must have that Photo: Dona Ann McAdams
equality and acknowledgment. So I'm trying to break
through, and I hope the next generation can contribute
even more. artists living on the Lower East Side. 1 think the only
reason 1 got to do it is because no one wanted to do a
public sculpture there-they want to do things in Cen-
tral Park or some place that's "cool and hip." I wasn't
sure what the response would be, but it's been really
That's the umale" way of dealing
positive. The people who live there put f10wers on it;
with suffering: uthinking" about it when Nelson Mandela visited, people added ribbons in
instead offeeling it. And my way is African colors-people leave things there. Also, a cot-
to feel it, acknowleJge it. As a tage industry started where people do rubbings and then
sell them for a buck - I love that, too.
culture we kind of have the
I want to do public sculpture that really acknowledges
thinking part down pat, but not the social conditions rather than just presents "form." A huge
feeling- red cube or big blue circle in some public square- I can't
relate to something like that; it doesn't make me feel
good. I'm never going to get $500,000 for work like that,
anyway. I mean-just a few years ago I was working 3
Real art is supposed to embrace current political and jobs and getting free food from a food pantry for the
social issues, but capitalism wants to prevent that pro- poor.
cess from happening in the culture, because if society I was getting thrown out of apartments and living in
embraced it, that might bring about the possibility of places that didn't have a bathroom -1 had to pee in jars.
getting rid of capitalism! And that's just too threatening. So when 1 see a huge red cube or some abstract-shaped
Since art is based on a capitalist commodity structure, I public sculpture-well, that just doesn't give me any-
try to think of ways to use that for my ends -that's why thing. Maybe for a man who's gotten everything he
I'm trying to do more public sculpture and installations. wants, and now has an opportunity to "experiment with
• AJ: Describe your public sculpture- shapes," this represents his big sense of freedom. But
• KF: I took my poem, "The Black Sheep," had it cast for me, something like that is as LeaA threatening as it
in bronze and now it's set in a concrete monolith near a can possibly be.
place where a lot of homeless people live. In a way this I want to give something-do work which helps
was a memorial for the homeless, the outcasts and the people connect emotionally in a sense of 'Iharing and

45
clar~fying emotional pain. Because that's more impor- • KF: That's the "male" way of dealing with suffering:
tant to our culture. "thinking" about it instead oflee/ing it. And my way is to
• AJ: Well, your "Black Sheep" poem is so powerful feel it, acknowledge it. As a culture we kind of have the
in that it binds all people who are displaced and mar- thinking part down pat, but not the feeling-
ginalized. You're a voice for a lot of the Black Sheep in • AJ: -because it's so scary to acknowledge that
this dysfunctional society- there are things you can't tbink your way out of, like
• KF: 1 don't like art that covers up; 1 like to do work death and suffering. This is a whole "society of deni-
that deals with hurt-where there's pain I want to point a al" -denial of even the suicidal path it's going on.
finger. I'm not a fatalist or an existentialist -I really do Society doesn't want to acknowledge there are things
believe in the human spirit. I don't by any means believe in human life like death and sex that you can't just
suicide is the answer, and I don't believe in giving up. I "rationalize" away-
think people feel a lot better when they examine pain, • KF: I think everyone's confused about these topics
and know that they don't necessarily have to forgive. ... but I feel that death-well, kil/ing-is wrong. I feel
A lot of Judeo-Christian ethics are about "forgiving we are more than our physical bodies ... and that ev-
and forgetting." But 1 don't necessarily believe in forgiv- erything's related-all people's "bad" actions affect other
ing at all! I feel that forgiving is: llel'er Letting go. I think people, and jail isn't necessarily the "cure."
that forgiving is a myth by which you in actuality think • AJ: We don't even have a "community" anymore;
you can still maintain control over someone -and that's a society's so fractured. People are so alienated that
falsehood. they don't feel any connection with others, so it's
I think this is why sometimes people feel better after getting easier and easier to fuck other people over-
seeing my work: because a lot of people are spending • KF: I think we don't feel. To me, what's important is a
their adult lives trying to "forgive and forget" things that connection and a centering: really listening to our selves,
happened to them in their childhood. Whereas in my because we're always listening to things outJide of our-
work, it's more like: "These people are bad, they're ass- selves. Of the male and female, the female is more apt to
holes. They had a fucked-up life, and it's fucked up!" /iJten, be instinctual, use the "sixth sense," nurture and
Thenyou go on, having accepteJ it being fucked up, rather heal-and I want to show that. ~y times when a WQ!!l:
than giving excuses for people. an is trying to express what she truly feels, a man will say,
• AJ: Only total acceptance of what happened - no "That's hysterical, perverted, domineering" -all these
matter how horrible it was-can sever the emotional words that reveal the existence of a double standard. For
enslavement to the past. You have a great line about example, it's interesting that there's no male word for
"people who intellectually 'rationalize' suffering" - "nymphomaniac." If a man has sex with a lot of different
women, that's looked upon as good, but if a woman does-!
There's a lot of negativity and jealousy toward women's
Photo: Dona Ann McAdams
sexual abilities: they don't have to refuel!
All this relates to the War in the Gulf, which typified
very negative masculine behavior without negotiation-
almost fearful of the "feminine." And this behavior is
grounded in philosophies and religious systems that rule
the world. Our religious principles are anti-women; our
philosophy even toward "saving the planet" is anti-wom-
en; America's whole social structure is anti-women and
anti-family-there are no childcare programs. Yet what
are our taxes going for?
In terms of the family, the responsibility is put on the
woman: most mothers still have to work, because the
father can't earn enough to support the kids, or has left
home. Society makes it as hard as possible for a woman,
who should have the right to pursue and develop her
talents and her job. It's almost as if society wantJ to
destroy the family structure, as it disregards the health
and welfare (never mind the "happiness") of an entire
generation of people who are growing up. American
society sticks the whole burden of raising kids on the
woman.
We're the only industrialized country outside of South
Africa that doesn't consciously do more for children.
Anywhere else, you can look at children and see that
they're happy. Here, when a woman takes pregnancy

44
 showed that 9 out of 12 women with breast cancer went
into remission after taking it. Also, it seems to diminish
certain brain cancers, treat hormonal diseases that affect
mostly women, and it could be very important in AIDS
prevention and cure. Yet this drug is prohibited -proba-
bly because it mostly deals with women's diseases. If it
concerned prostate cancer, you bet it would be available
/lOW! And it wouldn't be illegal.

There is so much hatred of the woman's body. If you

watch Sunday morning TV which has a lot of religious
programs or political shows, when the topic is "women's
problems," it's mostly older white men talking (with a
token woman). And very curiously, you'll see a lot of
Photo: Dona Ann McAdams commercials for mammography dealing with breast can-
cer, and that's very strange and sick. In fact, this truly
shows the sickness of our culture -which intersperses
leave, it's as if she were getting away with something. commercials of diseased women between David Brin-
Other employees whisper, "She's being given more than kley's political comments. Is this the only voice a woman
we are." What no one ever remembers is: everyone had a has in the political arena? And in these breast cancer
mother, and what did she do for you? commercials, the woman is portrayed as dirty and dis-
• AJ: There's no support for a single woman- eased-more diseased than a man ... Yet you don't see
• KF: -or even a woman with a man. There's nothing. prostate cancer commercials -can you imagine a rub-
And besides the absence of health care, one thing I feel ber-gloved hand with fingers pointed, ready to give a
strongly about is RU-486. It's not just a "morning after rectal exam? I've been studying this for a couple of
abortion pill" -it's considered a "miracle drug" because years - someday I'd like to do a video installation.
it can do a lot more. For example, a study done in France • AJ: And those breasts are the property ofmen-
• KF: Right: if they can cure it, they can control it.
Also, having too many mammographies (X-rays) can
Photo: Dona Ann McAdams catt.le cancer! And these commercials present and display
women in all kinds of ways that upset me. Also implied is
the idea that the woman's body isn't the woman's-par-
ticularly in the anti-abortion groups.
• AJ: The taking away of the right to abortion is the
biggest travesty. On Earth Day 1970, Abortion Rights
and Zero Population Growth were the biggest issues,
but on Earth Day 1990 there was no mention of these-
yet overpopulation is JtiLL one of the heaviest issues we
face. We can't even have an effective ecological move-
ment with this many people on the planet! And it all
comes back to the issue of the "Woman's Body": who
owns that body, and who owns the body of the earth?
• KF: In the same way that we bomb the earth, we
rape women.-Mother Earth is universally regarded as
~ine," and the way we treat it is very similar to the
-way we treat women. I think it's no coincidence that the
ay Bush started the War (January 15) is the same d,:y
he declared "Pro-Life Day."
• AJ: And now there are 300,000 Iraqis dead-"col-
lateral damage," right?
• KF: We slaughtered this long caravan of people for
no justifiable reason -they weren't attacking, they were
fLeeing. We bombed them and melted them into their
machines-there was no reason to do that, it was high-
way massacre. I look at all the men behind this as murder-
er.!. Because these same men, with their corresponding
"politics," will stop a pregnant woman from getting health-
care at a Woman's Clinic.
I've been talking with WHAM, which is sort of an ACT

45
up. version of women's healthcare, and they've inspired Thatcher. They like to give us these little exceptions-
me to think about doing a new study on women's health- I have a problem, too, with monarchy (besides the fact
care-an updated Our BoJied, Our SeLv&l. Something that that it even exists). In Britain, the only way you can
tells what's really going on. Because a lot of people don't become Queen of the country is if all the men die ...
know that in certain parts of America you can't get an only as a last resort! And I look at all the media profes-
abortion even if you want to-that's how bad it is! In sions: why are there no female game show hosts and no
many places, even if you're not going for an abortion, male assistants? Because they could never allow a man to
you'll be denied entrance to a clinic, or be subject to turn the letters on "Wheel of Fortune"! Can you imagine a
extreme harassment. Planned Parenthood is really suffering- man dressed like Vanna White in a skimpy little outfit
doing that every day? That would be considered JegraJing.
• AJ: One topic I wanted to talk about is this need to
marginalize artists in society. There's the myth that
We treat Mother Earth in much artists are unstable, unhealthy, ~d hysterical-tber~­

the same way we treat women" I

think it's no coincidence that the
day Bush started the War (January
fore they can be dismissed. Yet you have one of the

-in-itself
- is a powerful, radical statement helping to
keep you from being trivialized, even though you're
-
-most healthy, stable, holistic lives I've ever seen. That
-

15) is the same day he declared ~very much disturbing the status quo-
• KF: A lot of male artists "bought into" the myth that
lip ro- L"£
1 e D ay" "
"Men are more unstable; they don't take responsibility as
much as a woman does." Meaning that: women don't !eif!
as much as men; women don't abandon their children
and then not support them, like men do. For generations,
• AJ: Planned Parenthood often provides the only women have learned many skills: how to live with
healthcare in general for poorer women. And these less ... how to take on different challenges and man-
Fundamentalist blockades prevent low-income wom- age. So there really isn't anything so exceptional in how I
en from getting something as basic as a pap smear. I live. I look at my mother and what she did in terms of
think the next generation will view the Pro-Life peo- handling her life, and her mother, as well as other women
ple of today as marderer.i, because so many adults are around me -they had to do a Lot . ..
going to die from the consequences of overpopulation. In terms of the "artistic personality," the male artist
For Pro-Lifers, life ends after birth-they're only con- seemed to always be on the verge of going out of con-
cerned with that little fetus (which is really just a trol-even though men are always putting down women
metaphor for the possession/control of Woman's body for the same thing! And women trying to be artists had to
and sexuality). There are almost no resources directed become more like men in order to be accepted-Janis
toward life after birth- Joplin is a good example: she tried to be just as irrespon-
• KF: Or even before birth-there are no resources sible as men, and live "on the edge." But I don't buy this
anywhere. Society basically wants to tell a woman what idea that for thousands of years, women couldn't (by
to do -to prevent her from making decisions. As a wom- their nature and biology) possibly be artists, because to
an, I do not have the same prospects as a male. When I be an artist you had to have a certain misfit, irresponsi-
grew up, I didn't have the capaiJiLity to dream about ble, drunken, lifestyle. Really, that was all created to
becoming President. I couldn't dream about being an keep women out!
astronaut, a baseball player, or even an artist-just a
mother; a woman in this society is only valued if she's a
mother. And after you've reached a certain age, society's Installation at The Franklin Furnace: "A Woman's Life Isn't
Worth Much." Granite sculpture.
view is: "If you're not a mother by now, something's
Photo: Dona Ann McAdams
wrong with you."
And when a woman is over childbearing age, she's
basically considered useless - she's just waiting her time
out. That's the reason all these women (from Cher to
Raquel Welch to whoever) are desperately trying to
maintain the look of a woman of child-bearing age. Many
women over 50 are still very sexual and appealing. It's
pathetic that to most of society, they've lost their worth.
Ifyou examine TV newscasters, none of the women are
as old as the men-they don't even have a chance past a
certain age. Of course, in all highly visible professions
there's the Token Exception syndrome they give to shut us
up: Barbara Walters, Sandra Day O'Connor, Margaret

46
After a funeral someone said to me My brother says-l don't want you! Black Sheep see the invisible-
you know I only see you at funerals But I have many brothers with me We know each others thoughts-
it's been three since June- here tonight! We feel fear and hatred.
been five since June for me. J\!ly mother says -I don't know how
He said I've made a vow- to love someone like you! Sometimes some sheep are chosen to be
I only go to death parties if I know You're so different from the rest! sick to finally have average, flat
someone before they were sick. But I have many mamas with me here tonight! boring people say I love you.
Why? My father says -I don't know how to hold you! Sometimes Black Sheep are chosen to be
'cause-'cause-'cause I feel I feel so But I have many many daddies with me sick so families can finally come
sad 'cause I never knew their lives here tonight! together and say I love you.
and now I only know their deaths Sometimes some Black Sheep are
And because we are members of the We're related to people we love who can't say chosen to die so loved ones and family
Black Sheep family. I love you Black Sheep daughter can finally say-
I love you Black Sheep son your life was worth living
We are sheep with no shepherd I love you outcast, I love you outsider. your life meant something to me!
We are sheep with no straight and narrow But tonight we love each other Black Sheeps' destinies are not
We are sheep with no meadow That's why we're here- necessarily in having families, having
We are sheep who take the dangerous to be around others like ourselves- prescribed existences-
pathway through the mountain range So it doesn't hurt quite so much. like the American Dream.
to get to the other side of our soul. In our world, our temple of difference Black Sheeps' destinies are to give
We are the black sheep of the family I am at my loneliest when I have something meaning in life
called Black Sheep folk. to celebrate and try to share it with those to be angels
We always speak our mind I love but who don't love me back. to be conscience
appreciate differences in culture to be nightmares
believe in sexual preferences to be actors in dreams.
believe in no racism
no seXlsm Black Sheep can be family to strangers
no religionism We can love each other like MOTHER
and we'll fight for what we believe FATHER SISTER BROTHER
but usually we're pagans. CHILD
There's always one in every family. We understand universal love
Even when we're surrounded by bodies We understand unconditional love
we're always alone We feel a unique responsibility, a human
and you die alone. responsibility for feeling for others.
You were born alone We can be all things to all people
and you die alone- We are there at 3:30 AM when you call
written by a black sheep. We are here tonight 'cause I just can't go
You can't take it with you- to sleep.
written by a former black sheep. I have nowhere to go.
I'm a creature of the night-
Black Sheep folk look different Photo: Dona Ann McAdams I travel in your dreams-
from their families- I feel your nightmares-
It's the way we look at the world. There's always silence at the end of the
We're a quirk of nature- phone. We are holding your hand
We're a quirk of fate. There's always silence at the end of the We are your pillow, your receiver
Usually our family, our city, phone. your cuddly toy.
our country never understands us- I feel your pain.
We knew this from when we were Sister-congratulate me! I wish I could relieve you ofyour
very young NO I CAN'T YOU'RE TOO LOUD. suffering.
that we weren't meant to be understood. Grandma-love me! I wish I could relieve you ofyour pain.
That's right, that's our job. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO LOVE I wish I could relieve you ofyour
Usually we're not appreciated until SOMEO E LIKE YOU. destiny.
the next generation. Sometimes the Black Sheep is a I wish I could relieve you ofyour fate.
that's our life, that's our story. soothsayer, a psychic, a magician of I wish I could relieve you ofyour iUness.
Usually we're outcasts, outsiders sorts. I wish I could relieve you ofyour life.
in our own family. I wish I could relieve you ofyour death.
Don't worry-get used to it. But it's always
My sister says - I don't understand you! Silence at the end of the phone.
But I have many sisters with me tonight. Silence at the end of the phone.
"The Black Sheep" was taken from
Silence at the end of the phone.
Karen Finley's book, Shock Treatment,
published by City Lights Books, 1990.

47
 think the male privilege is: many times they're so fearful
of "femininity" that they just won't feel their real pain-
• AJ: -and that's part of why we're on this suicide
course: because men don't want to feel.
• KF: I think that "male myth" has destroyed a lot of
male artists. I heard Oliver Stone talking about Jim
Morrison and I thought he was completely wrong in
saying that part of Morrison's "edge" derived from the
fact that he had to go out and get himself completely
fucked up -even put himself in dangerous situations-
to do his art. I just don't buy that. Maybe it's because I'm
a woman, but I have a certain fear: when I tried hitchhik-
ing after reading Kerouac's On The Road, I got picked up
and at gunpoint had to give someone a hand job-
• AJ: Females have to face the fact we can't even
play tbat game.
• KF: There's no On The Road for 11J! I looked at Ker-
ouac's work, and from a feminist viewpoint felt it was a
• AJ: And to keep the artist from being taken seri- lie. Yet I feel that as women we're naturally DharlTl£l
ously. Because then they could be dismissed- BUITlJ-we just get paid less! I mean, we don't have to
• KF: -as a freak. I still feel that a person can live any "slum it" -we're slumming already. Actually, I liked Ker-
way they want; it's their business. But I really can't stand ouac's work and thought it was important in some ways,
the way the life of the artist is identified with Jliffering. 1 but I also felt it was uneven ... it was a Lie. In the same
~ h~ to "suffer" with my art - I've suffered in my way that I felt Picasso appropriating African imagery
own E-ersonallife just being sensitive to things that seemed was a lie ...
'~ng," and 'ust from the fact of being "born a woman." • AJ: Right now we can ask: "What is contempo-
So I don't need to be suffering in my leisure time by rary? What is really needed? What art really speaks
drinking 2 gallons of bourbon while hanging out in some for the society right now?" These are the issues. And
cafe - I don't buy that. Behind a lot of very famous artists women are doing a lot of the most cutting-edge, posi-
are really exceptional women whose own work is impor- tive work because the male experience is no longer
tant: Pollock's wife, De Kooning's wife, Courbet's wife providing enough ... ~e thing I love: in your per-
and Picasso's wife. And you can see how a lot of the formances you take off your clothes and are so at
wives' work -and thought-influenced the men. Frida ~me with your body. It's refreshing to see you walk
Kahlo and Diego Rivera are another good example- around as if you truly own your body, and are not
;; . or moving for the ~le gaze-
• KF: I think I purposely do that because I felt resent-
ful of what was going on in the '60s and '70s with the
Then I stick little candy hearts cutting edge male "Body Artists" (Chris Burden, Vito
Acconci, the Kipper Kids and Bruce Naumann) who did
(symbolizing Ul ove") all over my
use their bodies -well, as soon as 1 (a woman) tried to do
body --- because after we've been that, the situation changed, because the female body is
treated like .Jhit~ then we're IoveiJ. objectified. The men using their bodies are seen as "art-
And many times that's the only way ists," but for women a new element is introduced ...
and putting on a flesh-colored leotard just doesn't cancel
people get love.
out that layer of"embarrassment" or "hiding" associated
with female nudity. Women basically have to prot~c5
.!hemselves against t e ~ale gaze w~ch is aLwaYJ there.
Like, you won't wear a short skirt if you're walking by
• AJ: She was so much more responsible than he yourself down the street-y-;;u "dre~o..wn."
was. Most women really can't carry off that complete- When I first started out, there were times when male
ly irresponsible, over-the-edge lifestyle (Janis Jop- artists would relate to me not on a professional level but
lin's an exception) because even when they try, they're on a sexual level-and that confused me a lot. I thought
still holding down the fort- about this and realized how much I wanted to do away
• KF: -you gotta get that tampon in once a month. with this. Usuall ,we onl see the nude female body in a
• AJ: That reaUy is avery male myth ofhow "art and life" sexualized wa , like when a man is going to fuck her.
can be conducted, because men are not connected to that Rarely do we see the woman's body in situations other
m.erutrual cenler in tenns of responsibility- than that-just look at movies or commercials!
• KF: I don't need to destroy myself to find pain! And I Yet I only disrobe when it s necessary for what I'm

48
 shit, then we're loved. And many times that's the only
way people get love. Then I add the alfalfa sprouts (sym-
bolizing sperm) because in a way it's all a big jack-off-
f_I~F
we're all being jerked off ... we're just something to
jerk off onto, after the "love." Finally, I put tinsel on my
body, because after going through aU that, a woman still
ets resse l!Ptor dinner. -
A woman knows that if she wears that skirt, dresses
herself up and feels good about herself-that at the same
time she's potentially risking sexual violence. And the
fact that this is accepted as "normal" makes me almost
want to cry. In a way women are like Christmas trees:
normally they're not part oflife (or a "man's world ") ...
but adorned and decorated, they're an accepted accesso-
ry. The man has his life, then he comes home to "the
wife" -and that's what it's all (supposedly) about.
At the end of the performance, when I wash myself
off, it's like knowing you're washing your own shit
off ... you purify yourself. You know that you have
your own gods, your own goddesses-that you are
alone ... alone with your pain.
The final scene involves.the deathbed: afemaLe Jesus
Christ in the tomb, after the body has been wrapped in a
sheet. The chocolate bleeds through the sheets like dried
blood seeping through. I look at women as being this sort
of martyr, in a way. I think this piece is about AIDS, but
it's also about dying, of being there at death, and holding
in pain ... and finally, all of us coming together again.
Photo: Dona Ann McAdams • AJ: In a culture of alienation, only in the enter-
tainment world can you have anything approaching a
"shamanistic ritual." You function as a shaman em-
powering people to better understand themselves-
doing ... to express a certain sense of freedom or aban- and that's threatening-
donment, where I'm not going to be violated. So onstage • KF: I think society is still fearful of the Woman hav-
I create an energy offreedom and Jafety. And I help people ing power, meaning: if we had more of a feminine cul-
feel more comfortable with their selves: "Here I am, this ture, we wouldn't be needing the army, we wouldn't be
is it." Thus, in a sense, I wipe all the surface crap off needing to kill 300,000 Iraqis; we wouldn't need to be
myself-get rid of all the decoration. doing a lot of things-
When I come onstage I don't wear any makeup. I do • AJ: We practically destroyed their entire ecosys-
that purposely-when a male performer comes onstage tem; their entire sea is polluted.
he isn't wearing makeup; same thing! And I don't fix up • KF: Did you see Kuwait City on TV? They don't
my hair- I try to keep that sort of thought away. See, I'm have any sunlight; it's dark every day. If you live there
just doing my job, my task. And when all that artifice is you're supposed to wear a gas mask.
done away with you're just supposed to be seeing the • AJ: ... Regarding "anger": women aren't allowed
soul now ... there's the body up there, but you're to be angry, whereas a man can be angry-no prohLem.
going to see the JOlt!. Anger is even "sexy" for a man, but for a woman it's
Then I cover m,yself up in ways that I feel society always going to have a tainted, "bitchy" connotation,
covers up a.woma~as in the ritual where I put choco- like: ''Wbatd Your ProhLem?"
late all over myself. I could use reaL shit, but we know • KF: What's weird is: often when a woman gets angry
that happens already-just read the news: Tawana Braw- at a man, he'll say this cliche: "You turn me on when you
ley was found covered with shit in a Hefty bag. I use get mad!" as if to tame her. And there's something about
chocolate because it's a visual symbol that involves eat- "taming" (or controlling) a woman struggling to assert
ing as well as basically being treated like shit ... so it herself, that's really hideous. I'm angry, but I feel like I'm
works on different levels. There are so many occasions doinK something about it-~ it feels good. And that's
where you go into a job or situation and you just have to what a lot of my work is~about: trying to get people a;;g;
eat the Jhit-there's no other way out. so that they'll do something about it. 00 at m erfor-
Then I stick little candy hearts (symbolizing "love") ~ as a pep rally':really I thi;;k ~f myself a--;:;
allover my body- because after we've been treated like '!..wtivationaL Jpeaker!! ••

49
 In performances over the past 25 years, Linda Montano has steadily
sought to erase the barriers between "art" and "life." Her demonstrations of
the theory that attittUJe~ intent~ and allJarenu.J are what transform "life" into
" " can b
art ·
e Vlewe d as a termlna . I assau It on t h e art-as-commo d·lty
establishment, redefming art as a vigilant .Jtate-of-minJ.
The history of Linda Montano's performances reads almost as a scientific
investigation (or transgression) of the limits of previous conceptions of
"art." Themes have been "endurance, transformation, attention states,
hypnosis, eating disorders, death, as well as obliterating distinctions between
artllife." Some highlights include the 1969 "Chicken Show": "Once I decided
that I could show chickens in the gallery, all kinds of creative ideas began to
flow. The chicken show taught me how to laugh-plus I became the Chicken
Woman." In 1973 she did "Handcuff," during which she was handcuffed to
conceptual artist Tom Marioni for 3 days and nights. In 1975 she lived
blindfolded for 3 days in a gallery and never spoke. Probably her most
famous performance was the year she spent tied at the waist with an 8-foot
rope to artist Tehching Hsieh; they never touched. On December 8, 1984 she
began "7 Years of Living Art," which she described as "a multi-layered
personal experiment in attention which will last for 7 years. I will wear only
one-color clothes, each a year a different color; listen to one note 7 hours a
day; stay in a colored space 3 hours a day, and speak in a different accent
each year. "
Linda Montano has written 5 books (including Art in Everyday Life and
Before and After Art/Life CounJeling), produced 20 videotapes, and created
over 50 major performances. For years she has been an art instructor;
currently she teaches at the University of Texas in Austin. Her book Art in
Everyday Life can be purchased for $12 ppd from Astro Artz, 1641 18th St.
Santa Monica CA 90404 (213) 315-9383.
Linda will do a tarot reading by mail on any subject (sex/money/death,
etc). Send $7/per question and a self-addressed stamped envelope (SASE)
to Linda Montano, c/o The ArtlLife Institute, 185 Abeel St, Kingston NY
12401. For a SaintlPerformance Artist certificate send a donation and an
SASE to the same address.

- - - - - - -....P""rr-r.t ,~------
• ANDREA JUNO: Tell us about your early life- all the doctrines. Catholicism to me was pre-television
• LINDA MONTANO: I grew up in a small upstate theater; living MTV; it's where I got my imagery and my
New York village where there wasn't much access to fear ... I took it really seriously. I think kids now have
psychological or "New Age" ways of dealing with life the advantage of knowing that it's jwt TV ... having a
issues. I had quite a strict Catholic upbringing; 1 believed distance, a savvy and sophistication. But I took what was

50
Linda Montano as "Herself' Linda Montano as "Guru Leendah"

Linda Montano as "Biker Mama" Linda Montano as "Lenny"

The many faces of Linda Montano, as photographed by Annie Sprinkle. From a soon-to-be published book, Sacred
1 + 1 = 1.
Se.-.::• ••

51
happening in Catholicism l'erbatilll, and everything came tion or dialogue or monologing. My father was quite
ou t l'erbotell. fervently religious, but he was also dogmatic - therefore
Everything was a sin - not to be done. A posItIve genuine creativity in thought wasn't exactly encouraged.
aspect was: at least Catholic ritual is really high drama So I made the dramatic gesture of entering a convent.
and theater. At an early age I was aware of the power I was so enthralled that I stayed in that spiritual world
differential in the church between men and women: that for 2 years, not knowing that as an artist I would create
the women were the "nuns" whose job was to "shepherd" similar rituals which would become my own "thing." I
the children, keep them quiet and keep them going to enjoyed the freedom from all kinds of external responsi-
confession. And the men were the "priests" officiating up bilities; there I found structure with a built-in ritual.
on the podium, with altar boys serving them while they I also made the dramatic gesture of gaining a lot of
performed the "magic" (not that taking care of the kids weight, then losing it-when I left I weighed 82 pounds.
,,'a.m't magic, but .. .).1 certainly wanted to be a priest! I went from 145 to 82; that was probably my first body
alteratwl1. I didn't have the skills to deal with my psycho-
logical issues, and had acquired an eating disorder - I
was anorexIc.
I appropriated some of • AJ: That's typical of a lot of saints-
• LM: Did you see the book, Holy Al1ore.-r:ia?
Catholicism's mythology- I
• AJ: Yes, and Holy FelUt d Holy FlUt-there are
created my own religion in two of them out.
which I could be what I used • LM: So that was quite exhilarating, it was like per-
to adore; I could start forming, because I became very alert, very conscious,
very in controL very empowered - but I was doing it
receiving the attention I used
with food and denial of food. There was no other place I
to give to the saints. could do my wil4 because I had given my life over to the
convent-to "Mother."
• AJ: You felt empowered?
• LM: 1 was focusing; I was creating all the rules;
So you could say that my work really stems from was creating the scenario and being very "one-point-
jealousy over the fact that I couldn't be a priest! Plus ... ed" - but all this was specifically about food. I know
in my background is a lot of psychodrama; I grew up in a some people who are into macrobiotics and that's all they
small town without access to therapy, and I had to heal a do: think about food. They go on retreats, they spend
lot of things. Yet I had a strong will to live and to live my hours eating, cooking, and discussing food theory. My
011'11 way, in my own style... As a result of training in preoccupation eventually became non-healthy, obvious-
Catholic imagery and rituals, in my life the recipe of ly, because it turned into fasting which did increase my
ritllaLI and l1ellrOJeJ produced performances which were alertness - but to distract me from myJelf
not "schooled" . . . but personally lleceJJary to express
insanity and therefore maintain sanity.
• AJ: There's the idea that this world is an illLUion;
it's a backdrop for a play in which our goal is to evolve
and really get to know ourselves. You've taken that a I would do a performance on a
step further and consciously made life into a play street corner for a day, or for 3
called "performance"... You were a nun, too? days I would handcuff myself
• LM: I didn't want to go on to college. As a young
to an artist, or for a week live
child I had read J1arykl1ofl magazines, about a particular-
ly adventuresome order of nuns who go to Africa to cure at home and every minute would
leprosy or go to China and learn to eat noodles ... be art. I was just being in this
peddling Jesus around the world, the implications of IIstate of art" which was really
which I didn't really think about- I just thought, "Well,
a state of meditation.
I'll be able to travel and Do Good." And so for many
years I wanted to be a Maryknoll nun.
Then I had some major disappointments in sex when I
was 16-19, so I went into a nunnery by default; my
decision didn't spring from pure motives of either service Then I went to college, majoring in art. I felt that the
or spirituality. I was running away from my confusion only way to communicate was with art. I started out
over sex, plus what I felt to be a betrayal. And I didn't being extremely non-verbal and confused, but gradually
have a way to analyze my situation or to communicate began doing things and began to shine, becoming a lead-
my confusion. My family was a musical family; they er and organizing public pieces that everyone else could
listened welL but they didn't really stimulate conversa- be in. I became the energy of the art department, getting

52
applause for express-
ing my feelings in a
way that was socially
acceptable-in a way
that was pOJJibLe for
me. I could modify my
body and my psyche
by creating "living
sculpture" (as it were)
or "performances."
Of course, with all
that I had to do more,
so I went to Italy
for a year and studied
sculpture. I was still
very Catholic-orient-
ed, so my sculptures
were often crucifixes
involving Jesus. But
by the end of my stay
I was doing what I
called "happenings" on
the roof of the art
school. I had painted
all these found objects
and numbered them.
People would come in,
take a number, find the
object corresponding
to that number and
add it to the existing
"non-frame" that even-
tually became the
Photo: Mitchell Payne
sculpture. I was get-
ting hot and excited -this was really wonderful-it wasn't LYING: DEAD CHICKEN, LIVE ANGEL
addressing my psychology then (as much as my later Berkeley Museum, Berkeley, California 1972
performances would) but I felt I was reaLLy living.
• AJ: That "happening" took Duchamp's idea that III
the spectator completes the work of art to its literal For three days, from twelve noon to three, I laid in a
realization, and also challenged the notion of "sole chicken bed which had a twelve-foot wing span. I wore a
blue prom dress, tap shoes and a feather head band.
artistic responsibility" for a work of art.
Polyethylene curtains surrounded the bed. Fig leaves
• LM: Then in 1965 I went to a graduate school domi- covered the floor. A bird tape played during the event.
nated by all these serious minimal artists, students and
teachers. That's when I hid out in the agriculture depart-
ment. I took on the persona of a chicken, worked with This is the San Francisco version of the lying down piece...
chickens and did an entire "happening" with chickens except I had moved from the east to the west coast and as
presented in 3 large cages, 3 to a cage. A chicken video a result, everything was more fairy tale like...more
was continually playing; I exhibited 9 hand-tinted pho- whimsical. 1 was curious about female imagery and tried
making art that looked as if it were made by a woman but
tos of chickens; I rented a car loudspeaker and drove
felt that feather-covered female, donut-shaped sculptures
around the city playing chicken sounds, etc. In a humor- didn't satisfy me. Wings did. I provided sound this time
ous way I felt I was dealing with these Minimalist ques- and yet was still talked to/with and even kissed on the lips
tions of size and structure and concept - breaking the by a self-designated prince. It was the time of silence.
definitions of what is sculpture or what is art.
• AJ: What did chickens represent to you?
• LM: Just recently I was talking to someone who had
taken an acid trip where she followed chickens around long function of gathering enough food to keep the body
for 8 hours! She was talking about the size of their brain alive. It's a very large body and a very small brain, whose
in relation to this body that doesn't fly, that has this day- one-pointed task is to keep pecking at food on the ground

5.1
 fly up in her face and escape! I think this was some kind
of empowering action, in that even if you're not able to
talk, you can communicate to get what you want. l""Y
father was a first-generation Italian who didn't speak
English, so perhaps I thought of this as some kind of
comment on communication. I may have remembered
this story and thought, "Oh -chickens in art galleries! A
way to communicate!"

/II want to be an artist with the

same kind of alertness a hrain
clurgeon would have performing
.
mIcrosurgery . . . "

• AJ: Well, it's a creative act: to produce an egg out

of this one-pointed, frenzied activity-
• LM: -which they then sit on. They really live a life
of bipolar, opposite actions. When I took these chickens
into the gallery, it marked the beginning of a realization
that I had a .!Ilndum: to do things that would stretch my
mind and the minds of others. In Zen training they talk
about "waking up!" and "paying attention" and "playing
with the mind" -various ways to do that yet remain
Photo: M.innette Lehmann
"one-pointed." When I teach or talk I want to be alert. I
want to be an artist with the same kind of alertness a
HANDCUFF: LINDA MO TANO brain .,urgeoll would have performing microsurgery on a
AND TOM MARIaNI
3-year-old neighbor's brain. I want that critical edge of
Museum of Conceptual Art, San Francisco 1973
awareness and surgical precision, and I want to get it in
thiJ lifetime.
III • AJ: Isn't that also part of being priestly or doing
For three days Tom Marioni and I were handcuffed
together. For ten minutes each day we made a video what a shaman does for the community: being a kind
document of the event. The time together became a study in of "communicating vessel" for the gods?
movement and mutual signaling. • LM: I've shied away from that title, but recently I've
been disguised as a man in a setting where people come
up and want their Sex Chakra to open up, and I help
Somehow this event, more than any other one, raised them. So finally I'm really a priest handing out commun-
questions about public/private, and 1 felt a tension between ion! I guess I'm finally getting less shy. In a sense it's only
my ability to be permissive in my work and yet not in my life.
right that I've waited until my fifties to feel comfortable
I needed to redefine marriage and tried to do so with art.
Despite the conflict, it was a magical piece and 1 discovered with that title.
that Tom and I had probably been related long ago. • AJ: There's a transparency in your life; an open-
ness to explore what people consider private. Your
personal process of evolution is also for the society?
Can you talk more about your chicken performance?
• LM: After working with chickens, I started present-
ing myself as a "chicken woman" who was also a nun and
(sitting on eggs is the other task). This involves a pecu- a saint as well as a statue. I appropriated some of Cathol-
liar energy of concentration -they are constantly busy. icism's mythology and tied it to my own life and needs-
Also they have a strange non-functionality in that they I created my own religion in which I could be what I used
have wings but can't fly-it's all very strange, like a Zen to adore; J could start receiving the attention I used to
parable. give to the saints. So I would put on wings, mummy
My father told me that when his mother wouldn't let wrappings and whiteface makeup (and later on, a dance
him go to the movies, he would put chickens in the dress). This really was my chance to be looked at, to be
kitchen so when she opened the door, the chickens would seen, and to be witnessed here on the earth - balancing

54
out my tendency to live in the mind and to Leave, so to
speak. Intuitively I knew that if I got other people to look
at me, then I would really be here. Once J found that out,
it was as if I had discovered this secret. I did everything
and anything to keep that going, because it was pretty
satisfYing. And I could do this on my terms with my
costumes and my time frame; people would (not at the
beginning, but eventually) pay m.e to be ME . .. to be alive.
It wasn't quite that easy-I could only be me if I was
performing, but ...
I got addicted to the performing process - that's where
I was creative, truthful, abandoning ego and doing all
these wonderful things. I was curing myJe(f through ex-
hibiting my existence publicly. (Although ... once I
came off stage, it was almost like the comedian who isn't
funny off-camera.) But I got to cure my feeling that
"others are better than I am."
• AJ: Which others?
• LM: Like saints and martyrs and priests. I wanted so
badly to have "the best" that I found ways to creatively
give it to myself-the audience became surrogate parent,
friend and teacher ... the audience started teaching me
how to pay attention to myself so I could drink in this
attention. And when I did get the audience's attention, I
felt this was because I had succeeded in universalizing
my "message" -although I did this instinctively, not con-
sciously.
Now I can be more conJCWLlJ about how to achieve this. Photo: Mitchell Payne
People have other ways of getting "conscious": they go to THE STORY OF MY LIFE
therapy, they have friends they open up to, they have San Francisco Art Institute, May 1973
relationships, they have family, they have a diary, they
have music (or whatever) in their private worlds. And
now, after years and years of accruing much attention For three hours, noon to three, on a Wednesday,
from audience and voyeurs, I've gotten to the place where I walked uphill on a treadmill while telling the story of
things are more manageable -although I still to this day my life into an amplification system which slightly
like the energy of a performance; I make sure I do more echoed the sound. I wore a blue prom dress over my
clothes, had dye on my teeth and wore a permanent
than one a year. After finding out that I was good at
smiling device on my mouth. A tape recorder hung at my
making a living by the "art of public suffering," I wanted waist and played bird sounds. A green carpet covered the
to pull back a little. ground. A light was on my face ... A family photo album
• AJ: When did you start making your life a con- was on a chair.
stant performance, so you never went "offstage"?
• LM: I began doing that piecemeal. I would do a
performance on a street corner for a day, or for 3 days I I wanted to get into myself so deeply that I would be able
to get out of myself and knew that it was just a matter of
would handcuff myself to an artist, or for a week live at
time before that would happen. Actually the piece
home and every minute wouLd be art. I would endure things produced physical euphoria and as a result I couldn't
by taking things into my body, listening to my body, stop walking once the piece was over because my legs
being blindfolded. And this became very satisfYing- I had been programmed to move in one way and couldn't
wasn't running around Looking for art; I wasn't running stop. My body had a mind of its own. Preceding the
event a dentist had embarrassed me by proving (with
around doing anything; I was just being (for a week, or
dye) that I had dirty teeth. I asked him for some dye and
whatever period of time) in this "state of art" which was exposed my condition publicly therefore ameliorating the
really a state of meditation. dentist's probes into my hygiene.
• AJ: What made it "art"?
• LM: Just the Jtatement, the intention. I sent out an
announcement to people that I'd be home for a week, and
document all food, all clothing, all dreams, all conversa- • LM: And it dovetails nicely with Zen. In something
tions, all phone calls, etc. like Hinduism or Karma Yoga you're doing things for
• AJ: And instead of relabeling inanimate objects like "god," so to speak. But in Zen there isn't necessarily a
Duchamp did, you're making "living" the art piece- separation between sitting in meditation and doing the

55
dishes-al! actions (in fact, everything!) are opportunities • LM: It was an attempt to IlIzlj'erJall::e; to IlOt be lovers,
for consciousness. And I was 011 to that; I knew that was so that more people could relate to the piece - so that it
the direction I wanted to go in. r think Duchamp said that wasn't just male-female, but was 2 people. We talked for
hreathlizg could be the highest art. That's really my goal- probably 3 months straight; either we talked or fought.
I'm begging Duchamp's ghost to teach me that! We became very used to each other's needs. By the end
of the year it was like a ten-year marriage-we were so
totally bonded we were 11011-I'erhal [laughs] ... I was
considering that he would be my mate for the rest of my
life! It was probably the most powerful art experience
I've ever had.
We had a contract with • AJ: Wasn't a lot of the performance about inter-
witnesses that said we would be personal development? What kind of relationship prob-
tied at the waist with an 8-foot lems did you solve? What did you learn?
• LM: Well, it took 2 very special people to do this.
rope, never touch, and be in the We both shared enough of the same philosophy to en-
same room the entire time. And dure this; we both knew cO/lJclo/idly that we had chosen
we lived that way for a year. to do it. I knew I was training myself for other kinds of
life issues-for example, that it was possible to live
creatively in a jail, or if you were terribly handicapped
or an AIDS victim. So while I was tied to him I escaped
by creating a future. What I did was daydream; I creat-
ed a structure that would keep me in a "job" and alive
I had a lot to learn about consciousness -about "Why and learning and active and plugged into a creative
Create?" Or, "Why do r like to create?" Then, when I mindset or consciousness.
met Pauline Oliveros, I started something called "Living • AJ: But was anything wrong?
Art." r was still doing things like living for days at a time • LM: What was wrong was: I~ot out of a lot of the
in art galleries and talking about the fact that living was pain of being tied by making a new piece. I thought
the highest art. Then r started to think, "Living art, about that new piece a lot-instead of feeling how awful
hmmm" ... if anybody wanted to live with me for a it was every time I had to get up and go to the bathroom.
period of time, we would call it art, we would "intend" • AJ: So in a sense you were escaping the pain of the
that. We would draw up a contract, have lawyers sign it, moment-
and choose what activities we would do. The whole thing • LM: r escaped to creativity instead of just sitting it
would be art, but we might just want to "live," or just out. And it's a great piece, I did a great job, I escaped
want to work. Because I liked being in creativity at all beautifully. But I have some regrets about that experi-
times, I didn't like the division that "this was art" or "this ence because I feel I wasted a lot of good "grounding"
wasn't." Then I met and started working with Tehching time by not fully dealing with the pain of the moment.
Hsieh, who really is the n1a.Jter of Living Art. I feel he's Because thinking about or daydreaming about the future
Duchamp's son -philosophically and aesthetically, he's a can be a terrible opiate, a terrible drug ...
direct descendant.
• AJ: Where did you meet?
• LM: I worked with him in upstate New York in a
Zen monastery and had seen his ads on the streets of
New York - he was very good at PRo He was advertising I spent many years devouring a
the street piece where he just lived on the streets of New
Jmorga.1bOrd of spiritual
York for a year. And I had just broken up with a lover
and was mourning a bit too long. I realized that I could disciplines. Each had a different
stay in the monastery and be a nun, or I could get out, do message, a different methodology,
something harder and be an artist. So I called him; we a different way of meditating. I
had an interview, and then in '83- '84 we were tied togeth-
thought, uMigod, what do I do1"
er. For 6 months we worked, saw each other, became
lovers; then we got tied at the waist.
• AJ: How did that happen? You had a contract
signed, too?
• LM: We had a contract (with witnesses) that said we
would be tied at the waist with an 8-foot rope, never • AJ: It's so tempting to want to escape the pain of
touch, and be in the same room the entire time. And we life-
lived that way for a year. • LM: Really now, in retrospect, what bothers me is: I
• AJ: Why the "never touching" clause? didn't kilo", I was escaping. And now r know more about

56
this. If I'm going to escape, I want to be COI1,JCWlM before I
go. I want to say, "Okay, you're going now-for the next 3
hours you're going to think about [fill in the blanks] ...
• AJ: But since life is for learning, in a sense you
didn't waste any time-
• LM: And there is no time to waste, anyway!
• AJ: It's an illusion. The ultimate goal is to be able
to say: Everything is perfect.
• LM: Right! Well, I feel I did do something perfect,
then. Besides, time heals all wounds ...
• AJ: But ifyou were doing it now you'd do it differ-
ently - [laughs]
• LM: Anyway, I guess I'm still trying to teach myJe!j
. . . I give myself incredible permission when it comes to
art. I'm really ballsy, I'm really gutsy, I love what I do,
I'm really good, I have great respect for myself. And
what I'm trying to teach myself is, "Listen, this is Life;
there's no difference between art and life. So start seep-
ing some of that life over to the other side." It's almost
like I've created this schizophrenic persona of an artiA,
but then there's also this L~fe. . .
• AJ: So now you want to integrate them both. In
sum - what did you learn about yourself?
• LM: The fact that I'm extremely stubborn and one-
pointed, and the fact that I love challenges - I love doing
difficult, strange things. Tehching Hsieh helped me touch
the "Good Girl" paradigm in me-I had always been the
Nuns' or the Teachers' pet. I'd been the bad girl in my art, Photo: Mitchell Payne
but the good girl in Life. That piece aroused rage and
anger and got me into therapy again, where I realized BECOMING A BELL RINGER
FOR THE SALVATION ARMY
that art JlJa.1 not enough - I needed more help than what I
San Francisco, December 1974
was giving myself. Then I had to find a way to make
everything "art," so that the fact that I was going into
therapy would be just as valuable as making an art work.
I became a Salvation Army bell ringer during the
Then I came up with the idea of the 7-year piece, 7 Year" Christmas season. I sent out announcements to friends
of Living Art: Dec 8, 1984-Dec 8,1991. who visited me.

7 YEARS OF LIVING ART 12/8/84 -12/8/91 I began discovering that in reality I was different charac-
An experience based on the 7 energy centers ters/people and photographed myself as these for a few
of the body. years. Somehow I found all the Salvation Army clothes in
PART A: INNER: The ArtILife Institute my closet, except for the hat, pin and bell. I also needed
Daily, for 7 years, I will: work. As a result the Salvation Army character emerged.
I. Stay in a colored space (minimum 3 hours).
2. Listen to one pitch (minimum 7 hours).
3. Speak in an accent (except with immedi-
ate family).
4. Wear one color clothes.
PART B: OUTER: The New Museum
I. Once a month, for 7 years, I will sit in a
window installation at the New Museum • AJ: You're at the end of the piece, right? And it's
and talk about artllife with individuals who related to the 7 chakras and the 7 primary colors?
)010 me. • LM: It's based on the 7 energy centers or chakras in
PART C: OTHERS: International the body which are psycho-physical-spiritual-physiolog-
1. Once a year, for 16 days, a collaborator ic-glandular sites of nerve endings or ganglia or glands or
will live with me. spiritual vibratory black holes-moving black holes that
2. Others can collaborate in their own way Hindu or Tibetan Buddhist or other religious and meta-
wherever they are. physical systems have cited. I spent many years devour-

57
nda Hell- "Professional Dominatrix" LitUJy- "Girl Scout" NurJe Montano- "Stern Enema Nurse"

icy Lury- "Stripper" Linda Montano- "Performance Artist" Mihltanie"ra - "Ethnic Girl"

ing a JI1WrgMboro of spiritual disciplines - I went in and So that was one reason to create the piece-take one
out of many different spiritual worlds. And each had a center to each year and just 00 it. And I needed a way to
different message, a different methodology, a different do more art and to do public art, because that year-long
way of meditating, a different place in or on the body. The piece had been so rich and delicious that I wanted more.
focus might shift from the top of the head to the nose, to And I love structure; I've always worked with structure,
between the eyes, to the heart, to the nipples, to the design, number, and time or duration. So I designed a
abdomen, to the sex center, to the toes, to the bottoms of wonderful job for myself: for the next 7 years to live each
the feet-I thought, "Migod, what do I do?" I didn't year in a different energy center or chakra, very disci-
know where to be. plined. The first year was Red, the sex center, and for this

58
Linda Monroe-"HoUywood Sex Queen" Mi.Jd Montano- "Victorian Lady" Lola - "Naturalist"

•
TbeManyFm:uof
LirUJaMonlano

•
Allpboto.J by
Annie Sprin1c1e

•
LindaPage-"Bondage Babe" Pri.JJy-"Prom Queen"

1 chose a French accent. 1 selected a pitch which 1 door thinking it was a whorehouse because it was painted
listened to on an oscillator every day for 7 hours. Every a vibrating red. I had the excitement of having chosen a
day 1 spent 3 hours in a red room; every day I wore only wonderful piece and a great job; the confidence that 1
red, and it was just totally wild. was really on the right track-that 1 had done some-
• AJ: What kind of experiences did you have in thing really good. It felt revoflltwllary.
that year? • AJ: Dec. 8, '84 - Dec. 8, '85 was your Red year?
• LM: I had Slovers at the same time-probably one • LM: Yes. But in 1977 (described in my book, Art tn
of the greatest loves of my life came into my life (I can't Everyday Ll/e) I had done this piece, "Learning To Talk,"
name the person). And 1 had people knocking on my which featured these 7 characters, each identified with

59
a different chakra and theme. So seven years later in '84 out possessing and territorializing and having greed ...
I resurrected this work, adding a different color, accent, who do all this and just "~flare and just laugh . .. well, it's
and musical note. And each year I "channeled" a differ- not easy for me to do all that.
ent guide or mentor-for example in '84·'85 when I The third year was yelloll' For courage; the accent was
brought in the French accent, I asked Joan of Arc to be Spanish and the guide was Theresa of Avila. My life in
my guide. So this year I'm "channeling" a doctor I met those first three years was quite spectacular: I would get
at Ananda Ashram who's From India and has delivered up and meditate and do karate and listen to the sound
2000 babies and has 8 children. She's my model for the and live in those clothes (which people brought to me, or
year. they came From thrift stores) and speak in that accent.
The 1977 list of characters was: That was the year I met Annie Sprinkle and Veronica
Vera ... when I allowed myself to look at all aspects of
I. Lamar Breto 1st Chakra Sexuality sexuality and sensuality-and this was pretty courageous
2. Sister Rose Augustine 2nd Chakra Security for me. I also allowed Annie and Veronica as collabora-
3. Kay Pryo 3rd Chakra Courage
tors into my life. I had done that with Tehching Hsieh
4. Linda Lee 4th Chakra Love
5. Dr Jane Gooding 5th Chakra Communication and the rope, but I saw that I could continue doing
6. Nadia Grozmolov 6th Chakra Bliss that-and with a woman. I had lived with Pauline Oliv-
7. Hilda Mahler 7th Chakra Union eros who had influenced both my life and my work - her
work with listening and using long tones certainly in-
I had to modifY this For the "7 Years of Living Art" spired my use of a drone in a piece I did for my ex-
project. husband who was killed. Pauline's the real mother of all
• AJ: What color are you in now? women composers-a totally avant-garde, wild, pioneer-
• LM: I'm in white, the crown. And as the years went ing electronic musician. She plays accordion and com-
on the accents dropped, the sounds dropped - I had to poses meditation music. And we were partners (and
break my own rules, although I kept the basic structure lovers) for years. Pauline and Maryanne Amacher are
together For 3 years - I never once broke the Jre,'" coJe. the most devastatingly wonderful female composers in
People would say, "Well, you didn't sit in your room the world.
today!" I noticed that I was fighting too much, that I was The next year's color was green for the heart chakra. I
/orcin.f/ it to happen, that I was messing around with my moved into Maryanne Amacher's home which Pauline
Will, and that liFe was starting to mess around with me. I was renting, and I sublet it from Pauline. I said, "Okay
was trying to stick to my original plan, but LiFe told me, heart-open!" because in that year my mother died, my
"Okay, try doing it under these circumstances -go ahead brother-in-law died, my dog died and I had no place to
and see if I care!" I could not keep going-life won. live. All that was quite a test of the heart, like: "Okay, you
• AJ: In the Red Year, did you find that you re- asked for something-here it i.J1" It was like dynamite, a
solved issues of sexuality? volcano erupting and an earthquake all combined. That
• LM: 0, but in the yellow year I met Annie Sprinkle was the hardest year.
and it's like I opened the door to unconscious sexual That year I "manifested" a house for myself in mourn-
imagery and sexual issues. I've been dealing with that ing for my mother's death. I worked like a zombie creat-
ever since, and it's still not resolved, although it's getting ing the "Art/Life Institute" in a building that had been
better and better. I'm much more comfortable with where empty for 20 years and was totally trashed (I filled two
I am sexually, but there's still more to be said and done. 25x25-foot dumpsters with refuse). I brought this "vic-
When I opened the "door," I found the reluctance to tim" back to life-recycled this building, recycled my-
leave was so great that I decided I needed 7 years for each self, and cleaned out all the confusion (not all!) and the
chakra-that I had made a mistake-the piece was wrong- pain of loss.
ly developed. It needed to be a -i9-year piece. When I was living in San Francisco I had the "Living
• AJ: Do you still think that? Art Museum" because I get uncomfortable if I have to
• LM: I really don't know ... The second year was live in a "home" -a home means nurturing, food, securi-
orange for Jecurity, and one of the issues of being a nun or ty, and raises issues about family and communication. So
being in any institution is security, because there that's a no matter where I'm living, I call it a museum or an
given. The horizontal plane is taken care of by them, so institute and that makes me happy, because then I am art
you can go up and live in the "spiritual" -and I wanted living in art. Doing this also gives me permission to make
to get a handle on that, because some people hide out in a place a "work of art" instead of a "home." The "Art/Life
institutions so they don't have to deal with the nitty- Institute" is divided into two equal spaces, one of which
gritty of everyday life, and that's an issue for me. I want is completely empty and painted the color of the year I'm
to be able to handle the everyday life, because that',} "in." The other space is for living, with a kitchen and
where the real saintliness is. People who maintain their bathroom; upstairs is for sleeping and storage. And it's
clothes, their tastes, their cars, their relationships, their wonderful-very minimal and nun-like. It's a work of
mothers, their Fathers, their shoes, their things, their art-a monument to mourning and a monument to a
relationship to money, their relationship to food -with- woman doing a really big sculpture. It's a great feat, and

60
I'm proud of it.
People can come study with me. That was part of the
structure I'd envisioned, because I was living alone in
Kingston, without a live-in relationship; without Jtimula-
tum. When I first moved here it was like a North Dakota
outpost on a winter day-intensely isolated. Now it's
becoming very Soho. During the past 7-year piece I've
gone once a month into New York City to do Art-Life
Counseling at the New Museum, as an extension and
testing of my "inner work." Also, once a year I have
someone live with me for a couple weeks and work and
collaborate, or I give workshops to them.
• AJ: Annie Sprinkle described attending your
workshop with Veronica Vera, doing performances
about her life and discovering things about herself.
She said she learned to appreciate toilet paper - only
using one square ...
• LM: Yes, the workshop is like living in a convent for
2 weeks-everything's regulated, it's very strict. I don't
let them rustle through the icebox, you know.

SAMPLE SCHEDULE

1. All lights off when not in use.

2. Silence most of the time.
3. Use very little water, dish soap, toilet pa- Photo: Pauline Oliveros
per.
4. A performance every evening based on a LIVING ART
chakra. The Annual San Francisco Christmas 1975

5. All is subject to change.

Wed. [Ching, Tarot, Pendulum. Orientation.
III
For four days, Pauline Oliveros, Nina Wise and I lived
Thur. 1st Chakra: Sex, Earth.
together and called that time art. Each of us had a
8:30-9:30 Exercise separate environment and we laid motionless for long
9:30-10:00 Tea periods of time in the environment.
10:00-12:00 Meditation, chant, visualization.
12:00-2:00 Do interview
2:00-3:00 Lunch Instead of feeling creative, human and spontaneous, I felt
3:00-5:00 Meditation like a harried hostess during this event, probably because
5:00-7:00 Free the complexities and paradoxes of relating were too
problematical- I decided to go back to life.
7:00-8:00 Snack
8:00-10:00 Meditation and performance.
Fri. 2nd Chakra: Security, water.
Sat. 3rd Chakra: Power, fire.
Sun. 4th Chakra: Heart, air. We will do a 6-
hour Vision Quest.
Mon. 5th Chakra: Throat, ether.
Tue. 6th Chakra: 3rd Eye, ether. give her the attention she needs-you reveal her "sins" in
Wed. 7th Chakra.;.. Top of the head. public so that she can get on with her life-i.e., Ji.Jappear!
So that the next time you make love to your favorite
lover in the world, there's not that little snickering 7-
• AJ: In your workshop, your intention is to get year-old there to create static amidst your ecstasy-you
people to make performances out of very deep and know what I mean?
personal past experiences ... to get us to externalize So ... it's really to our advantage to houseclean our
our deepest personal shames and fears - in order to interior soul, and bring what we found out into visible,
get control over them, instead of them controlling 1M. witness-able form, and have other people say, "That's not
• LM: If inside you is a little girl who's snickering at so bad!" or "That's great! -you really did well with that
something you do, then you bring that little girl out and sludge!" Someone might say, "Oh wow-now let me

61
 Each year r had an ail-

ART /LIFE ment that corresponded to

the chakra of the year-

ONE YEAR PERFORMANCE whether it was head or my

eyes or heart trouble. By
then r knew that it wasn't
just me. r thought, "Okay
life, let's play together-if
you want me to do some-
thing, go for it. I'm going
to see what you want."
Last year was really a
whirlwind for me; it in-
volved screening out el'-
erything; obtaining clarity
of vision -c!earJight. This
year has been extremely
angelic, pure, scary. I'm
all in white and living at
an ashram where all is
light. Then when r go to
Kingston, I'm like in the
movie WaLL Street - I get
on the phone and buy a
car and make arrange-
ments to go to my next
teaching job.
Now my life is about

1983 -1984 integration. I'm trying not

to judge anyone as good
or bad or white or black;
Linda Montano and Tehching Hsieh together day in and day out for a solid year.
I'm not trying to be the
good girl or the bad girl,
show you mine!" Everybody should do this some time in or to judge something as better or worse ...
their life: look at your sexual history, and if you have no I'm planning another 7-year project. I'll be going four
public place to do this, then definitely at least do a times a year to the United Nations, giving myself as a
performance privately for yourself. Living art object, because the United Nations is filled with
• AJ: Annie Sprinkle had such praise for your work- gifts of art from other countries. So I'll be an "unofficial"
shop- American donation. I'm also going to Texas to teach-
• LM: I feel Annie is extremely and importantly bound that's how I've survived for the past 20 years: teaching
to my process and my "good" sexual self. Our finding freelance-6 weeks here, 6 months there ... whatever.
each other was a boon! And we constantly trade infor-
mation. Annie told me, "Look, Linda-you're really
sexy ... have fun with it!" Sex is her glft.
• AJ: Tell us about your "Blue Year"- In the yellow year I met Annie
• LM: During the "Blue Year," I lived like a total bum. Sprinkle and it's like- I opened the
I had no water, no gas heat-only electricity. Given what
I was thinking about, I think I needed to suffer-I was in
door to unconscious sexual imagery
such heavy mourning that I didn't want to "nurture" and sexual issues. I've been dealing
myself, I had to do it this way - this was the best "nurtur- with that ever since ...
ing" I could give myself. Tehching had showed me how
to pee in a jar and [shit] in a bag-he'd had to do that
when he lived on the streets of New York for a year. So
life was reduced down to the "nitty-gritty." Yet it was a • AJ: You're in direct contact with students; do you
really satisfYing experience; I was Katherine Hepburn see any evolution in how people are dealing with things?
that year, and the chakra was the throat or communication. • LM: I think that role models for women are gaining
My persona was Meridel LeSeur, 90-year-old poetess momentum; I think we're fired up now. We can go for
and incredible ex-stuntwoman. whatever we uniquely need to do, and we also have

62
permission to fall back ... permission to be pre-wom- they overcame. And for thousands of years women's
en's movement and pre-consciousness raising. I'm find- rights and their more personal mode of living have
ing that we can have it all; that we have permission to/fill been negated-yet without their integration, there can
and to be floundering humans. Maybe that's more impor- never be a lasting revolution. Anyway ... your per-
tant than "making it." I think what I'm trying to say is: sonallife and art have become transparent models for
there are days when I feel trapped, and [ still need us: watching your growth is like watching our own
support. There are times when [ need nurturing and [ growth ... you're making personal evolutionary
have to ask for help for my next step -which might be no changes puhlic-
step at all. • LM: As artists, in the Bohemianyears we did/ooo-it
was bread, wine and cheese, and that was all because of
lack of money. In the '60s and '70s, artists did ,Ie.c, with all
these live models and alternate role playing. In the '80s
In the '90s we artists are doing we did mOlley - rich artists; much money being made
(Andy Warhol started that). And now in the '90s we
deatb-it's the great preparation
artists are doing oeath -it's the great preparation for
for letting go completely. letting go completely and going to the next cycle. We're
going into a leehllologu:al cO/went (or something) because
of AIDS and the gay world who helped us with sex ...
who liberated sex so that now we can have a liberatioll of
The goal is to relax into my true lIature. Menopause has death . .. now that death has become like the common
come and gone, and as the political arena gets messier cold and it can't be hidden anymore-now it has to be
and the world gets more desperate by the moment, I try acknowledged; it can't be lied about. So I have a piece
to tap into my own clarity and spiral away from my own where I ask everyone to say the word "death" 4000 times
confusion. Actually, I think illle/vie"". give me a chance to a day; to talk to it, to start making friends with death,
learn more and appreciate myself-maybe the moral of because that's the nell' ll'ord. We've taught each other
the story is: we all need to interview ourselves once a everything else; we still have to teach each other about
week ... death. It's been romanticized, it's been disguised, it's
• AJ: With all the pain that's going on in the world- been camouflaged, it's been watered down -everything
well, how do you deal with pain? but dealt ll'ith . .. and it can't be denied anymore.
• LM: I don't have a TV and I don't open a newspa-
per - I'm a ",imp! I won't look. And now I run to a
therapist and live in an ashram because I just can't take
it - I'm not strong enough; it's too milch. And [ don't know
if that's correct, but right now [ need all my resources Death has to be acknowledged; it
just to get through the next day. It's a weak time and I'm can't be lied about ... we have to
coming out of it- I'm being kicked out of it because soon start making friends with death,
I'll have to teach publicly for a period of time. But one of
because that's the new word. It's
my survival modes has been: as much isolation as pos '-
ble. The revolution is not just in the world; it's taking been romanticized, it's been
place inside yourself. disguised, it's been camouflaged, it's
Something strange is going on -people are acting been watered down - everything
very odd, and things are happening that you would
but dealt witb ... and it can't be
llel'er think would ever happen. It's the breakdown of

the nuclear family and the political world and the denied anymore.
world itself-so I'm just clinging to the side of the ship
in the only way I know how. But I think everybody's
trying to find their way of makill.q "en,le before every-
thing sinks ...
• AJ: I'd like to think we're on the brink of an Karen Finley's doing the Death of the Good Girl; Annie
incredible new consciousness and human evolution- Sprinkle's doing the Death of Taboo. I also hope to be
but it's like a birth, it's most painful. And it's personal, contributing; I have my own need to understand the aging
too-you can't even have a "revolution" without per- process. I want to be a ,Ieientt;,t uncovering all I can about
sonal healing. Actually, how can there be a revolution death and the fears surrounding death -that's my next 7-
when two people can't even have a personal relation- year scheme. I've done the martyr work; the next 7 years
ship without lying to each other almost every day? will be about the appreciation of the chakras in the body-
Without total personal transformation, you'll just be not opening, not pushing, not fucking, but appreclaflizg
perpetuating the same authoritarian bullshit ... where them. And in that desire for the fullest possible apprecia-
the revolutionaries become just like the oppressors tion, I'm inviting a dialogue ... with Death.• ••

63
 BriefBiography: "Life I.f Art"

Jan 18, 1942,7:35 AM: Born Capricorn with Aquarius I needed in my life: confidence, courage, stillness,
rising. 3 days old, a minor operation for an inverted endurance, concentration." Begin Yoga. Marry Mitch-
nipple. Congenital heart murmur. Got shoe and foot ell Payne. Honeymoon in Niagara Falls. Move to San
caught in toilet bowl. Francisco, car accident on way. Belongings all over
1942-48 Played with brother & sister; insist on being the highway.
Virgin Mary 1971-75 Study Yoga with Doctor Mishra; study acu-
1949 Had worms. All 3 of us have 2 enemas a night until puncture. Yoga Therapist at St Mary's Hospital. Buy
worms are gone. nurse's dress and wear it on the street. "In 1972 I
1952 Played doctor under the house. performed a chicken dance in 9 different outdoor
1953 Took tap dancing lessons. Took piano lessons. places in San Francisco. The suicide prevention squad
1954 Won a drawing award for picture copied from picked me up for dancing on the Golden Gate Bridge
magaZIne. and said that I was holding up traffic for 5 miles on
1955-59 High school. Devised a smell patrol-friends each side and if any accidents occurred while I had
who would tell me if I smelled or not. Wore ten differ- been dancing, that I would have been liable. I quickly
ent deodorants at one time. realized that art had a 'public ethic.'."
1957 Work at father's shoe store, bus girl at resort, sand- 1973: Do "Handcuff' piece with Tom Marioni: "The
wich counter at Thruway Hot Shoppe, child care at piece with Tom was wonderful. We moved together
resort. immediately. As soon as the handcuffs were on, we
Late 50s. Grandmother dies. Introduced to Italian op- started moving together. That continued for 3 days:
era. See movies: Joan of Arc, BernaJette, Seven BrUJe.J for going places, getting up, eating, changing, going to the
Sellen Brother.!, Annie Get JOur Glin. bathroom.Whatever we did was absolutely synchro-
1959-60 College of New Rochelle, Art Major. Spike nized at all rimes. It just seemed so easy-he was so
heels. easy and I was so easy-and the kinds of closeness
1960-62 Maryknoll Sisters. "I wanted to be the female that happened and the Siamese twin feeling of the
Albert Schweitzer and cure leprosy." Leave weighing piece was amazing; the kinds of things we didn't have
82 pounds. to say because we had become so bonded just by
1963-65 Back to college. "Did short, impromptu plays doing everything together. So for 3 solid days, every-
about college life, shaving legs, dating, etc. Like Cath- thing we did was with awareness."
olic rituals, the skits also seemed to be the prototypes 1974 Begin going to therapy. Fix up house at Shotwell
for performances I would do years later." Street. Dog "Chicken" dies Nov 2, All Souls Day,
1965-66 Villa Schifanoia, Florence, M.A. degree in sculp- during performance of me lying in a crib listening to
ture. "I had a 'happening' at my opening which seemed my mother talk about me as an infant.
more provocative and spontaneous than my sculpture. 1975 Scream uncontrollably after Motion performance.
It was then that I began questioning the need for Kindness of friends makes me want to come back.
permanent object making." Separated from Mitchell Payne.
1966-69 Univ of Wisconsin, MFA degree. Agriculture 1976 Move to San Diego & live with Pauline Oliveros.
school with chickens. 1977 Took refuge with Buddhist Lama Kalu Rimpoche.
1970 Car accident, car turns over. I "die" and leave body He lived in a cave for 13 or 16 years. I experienced
but experience coming back in. being a Catholic, Yogi, Buddhist and have done EST,
1970-71 Do first performance in Rochester with dead Gestalt, TM, Mind Dynamics, Zen, Rolfing, Polarity
chickens: "everybody who saw it was shocked. People and Acupuncture. Become saint in Universal Life
wondered if it was about Yoga or Vietnam or Vegetar- Church. Mitchell Payne is shot Aug 19 and dies in-
ianism or whatever." "The Chicken Woman was born- stantly in Kansas City. Mourning. Begin Karate class-
she was a nun, saint, martyr, plaster statue, angel, es with Lester Ingber, founder of Institute for the
absurd snow white dreamlike character and the chick- Study of Attention. First real taste of discipline.
en became my totem and twin. I began a series of 1978 Teach art.
experiments with myself that allowed me to explore 1979 Teach performance at San Francisco State & SF
physical, spirituaL psychic spaces which had been Art Institute. Cut my hair so I'll appear punk. Hike 45
previously taboo, frightening, or obscure. To intensify miles in the Sierras. Collaborate with Pauline Oliv-
these events I would alter my consciousness with hyp- eros.
nosis, duration, sound or repetition. My work was 1980 Begin small business, Art-Life Counseling.
now giving me the freedom to practice the things that 1983 Begin one-year performance with Tehching Hsieh

64
 tied to 8-ft rope by waist. LIVING ART, then that time will become ART and
1984 Begin 7-Year Performance, 7 YearJ of Living Art. not time.
1980's The Swter ROJita Summer Saint Camp. Come to Sis- Section 4: The Contract:
ter Rosita's Summer Saint Camp and learn discipline, '" The contract is an agreement made by the artists
how to look for miracles, talk in accents, wear a habit before the event. It states that the time together and
(all yellow clothes), get up early, exercise into one- activity performed will be ART.
ness, take pilgrimages to sacred places (tour Wood- Section 5: The Activitiu:
stock and swim in the Hudson); take cold showers The activities are anything that the artistlnonartists
and prepare for next winter, eat sparingly (rice and would like to perform together. These activities, when
beans); fast one day a week, research stories about the documented and performed together as ART, can
saints (performance artists). Here, structure gets sub- change the vaLueJ and perJonaL vwwn of the artist.
stituted for worldly success, dreaming for TV, walking Section 6: DirectwnJ For Pe10rming Living Art:
for cars, and awareness for entertainment. In 7 days 1. Choose a person/persons with whom you wish to
we visualize and experience the 7 chakras, one a day, perform LIVING ART.
and then "perform" from that chakra each night, after 2. Select an activity that you would both like to per-
having spent the day coming from that particular en- form.
ergy. 3. Draw up a contract stating what the activities are,
At the successful completion of these hardships you time it will be, and place/places.
will receive saint papers and a performance certificate 4. Decide on a mode ofcfocumentation for the LIV-
from the St. Rosita ArtlLife Institute. ING ART event.
5. Spend the designated time together and perform
the events.
6. Present the result of your experiment to one or
Lil'ill.9 Art: Time SPeIlt Artjitlly Alolle or Not Alolle
more friends, either with documentation, talking or
Section J: PurpoJe d Intent: live performance.
Friends often intend to collaborate but rarely find the Section 7: Documentatwn
opportunity. The purpose of LIVING ART is to allow The document of the time can be in any mode com-
artists/nonartists to designate specific times; hours, fortable for the artists. Record making should be done
days, weeks or months to work and live, together or without dtrud so that the process of the art itself can be
alone. This time then becomes ART. The intention of fully experienced.
LIVING ART is to redefine relationships by living
together in a marathon fashion after having drawn up
a mutually workable contract. The contract lasts as
long as the ART.
Per.fOllal Lil'l·Il.9 Art Hi.ltory
Section 2: Living Art Defined: 1973 Home Endurance. Home for a week.
Living Art is any work/play which artists/nonartists 1973 Handcuff to Tom Marioni. Three days.
are willing to perform together or alone. The rules can 1974 Garage Talk. Available to others for 3 days.
be determined by the needs of the participants. For 1974 Husband-Wife Fashion Show. Modeled resort
example, they may explore silence, fasting, psychic clothes.
discoveries, eating, basketball, etc in the search for 1975 Listen To Your Heart. Three days living in a gal-
new styles of relating. LIVING ART becomes LIV- lery wearing a stethoscope.
ING ART when the times and activities which the 1975 Living Art. Anza-Borrego Desert with Pauline Ol-
artists perform are intended to be art. The announce- Iveros.
ment may be public or private. 1976 When I was Young I Thought that I was Going to
Section 5: Time Defined: Die when I was 34. Living on Leucadia beach for
LIVING ART divides time into actual time and ART. three days.
Actual time is divided in terms of seconds, minutes, 1983-84 Living tied to 8-foot rope without touching for
hours, days, months, years. The artists may choose as a year with Tehching Hsieh.
much of this time as they think they need to tral1.Jform
and change themselves. When it is intended that a
specific time together will be designated as time for

Q Thrift; how to walk and smile like a nun; how to live without hot water, art, or
sex; how to remember to turn the lights off when leaving a room; how to make a
hair shirt and enjoy wearing one; how to live on air when hungry; how to live
without the use of your refrigerator over the Christmas holidays; how to spot a
martyr.

65
 Photo, Chris Buck
66
 Since the early '60s Carolee Schneemann has been a pioneering, taboo-
breaking performance artist, filmmaker and writer on the subjects of
feminism, sexuality, and the ec.:!tatic~ erotic body as a source of knowledge.
Investigating denied aspects of the unconscious, she has created hundreds of
solo improvisations and multi-media "happenings" which incorporate dance,
film projections, poetry, painting and sculpture.
In 1962 she transformed her New York loft into a kinetic environment in
which she did a series of "actions," thus anticipating the "Body Art" movement
of the '60s and '70s. She choreographed the Judson Dance Theater (whose
members included Meredith Monk and Yvonne Rainer) exploring the use of
anti-gravitational devices and emphasizing intensive physical contact and
ruk. By 1964 she had established her Kinetic Theatre, a racially mixed
group whose performance Meat Joy mingled blood, fish, chicken parts and
raw sausages with the naked bodies of the celebrants. Her infamous film,
FlUe.:! (1965) revealed transgressive images such as a penis transforming
itself into a vagina, and a penis stained with menstrual blood. During the
Vietnam war, public screenings of her anti-war films Snow.:! and Viet-Flake.:!
were harassed by police. Since then Carolee has done more performances,
including Up To and Including Her LimiU (in which she was suspended from a
rope harness); Fre.:!b BloOd -A Dream Morpbology (exploring taboos of female
sexuality); and a major installation, Cycladic Imprint.:!~ at the San Francisco
Museum of Modern Art.
As Carolee put it, "I've always been amazed when I create a scandal. I
don't do it on purpose, but you do get an instinct for where tbe repre.:!.:!wn i.J
and you go for it. I always thought that my culture would be gratified that I
was putting it out, but instead they want to punish you." Her latest works
have not stopped critiquing bodily taboos. She currently resides in New
Paltz, NY.

,~-----
_ _ _ _ _ _...r~
.. ~

• ANDREA JUNO: Where did you grow up? film. I also started keeping notebooks-not only of
• CAROLEE SCHNEEMANN: In rural Pennsyl- dream notes, but of dream Jrawing.!.
vania. My earliest inspiration was my godmother who Early in life I recognized that there was a certain
always arrived wearing furs and smelling of perfume- ecstasy (akin to the sacred and holy-orga.Jln, even)
she was an actress who'd run away to New York City. involved in creating images within a frame. I discov-
She gave me the most exquisite attention when r was ered this was a place where r could go for a "higher"
four years old, and was the first adult who encouraged integration of where r was and what I could feel. So for
me in a visionary way. I was drawing before r knew roe, drawing and the erotic had this early bond -when-
how to talk-drawing was like breathing for me. All ever the adult world would try to inhibit or discourage
kids draw, but I drew in sequences like stills from a or confuse me, I would recognize that they were trying

67
 tenacity where an image could be both imprinted and
released, like a film image in motion. That book gave me
something which is still a key to my method ...
Actually, my main influences were Jecret- I had lived
in and absorbed and survived and even done well within
male culture, but what truly inspired me was what I
called "double knowledge": the existence of a secret,
separate history to research and investigate (for exam-
ple, Maria Bashkirtseff's diaries from the turn of the
century). She was an impassioned young Russian who
went to Paris and studied with the best teachers before
dying of tuberculosis. Her journal chronicles this incred-
ible struggle and turmoil about what she's painting, what
she's sculpting, what she's etching, how she's struggling
to keep her strength, and how much blood she's cough-
ing up ... And she died at the age of 22!

. at the end the performers (who

were mostly nude.- if they'd been
totally nude they would have been
arrested) were smearing each other
"Eye Body," 1963 Photo: Err6
with dead fish, chicken parts and
to separate these two realms. raw sausages in an absolute frenzy!
• AJ: In the '60s, you made a statement that "Paint-
ing Was Dead" -
• CS: Yes, that was a real crisis for me. What I was
trying to find was a way to-in effect-paint with words,
with video, with film, with the body, with extended struc- The more I research, the more this terrible pattern
tures in space. So I'll probably die saying I'm a painter, emerges-all my favorite female predecessors seem to
even though there's no brush or paint around. As a meet a terrible end! Margaret Fuller drowns; Paula Mod-
young artist I had to overcome all those Western culture ersohn-Becker dies after giving birth; Virginia Woolf
standards of "how to see, how to draw, how to hold the drowns -others are simply ignored by history, or worse-
chalk ... " And back then the term or the idea of "Per- absorbed into a body of work done by their male lovers
formance Art" did not exist. (or fathers or associates). For example: Judith van Ley-
ster, who painted an enormous number of the works
attributed to Franz Hals. Marie-Joseph Charpentier's
most significant works were re-attributed to David, be-
cause then they'd be worth a lot more. There's a whole
What truly inspired me was what I litany of histories like this. I was an amateur digging this
called "double knowledge": the stuff up in the early '60s; now, thank goodness, there's
existence of a secret, separate "feminist research ... "
history to research and investigate. When I started really developing my own work such
as "Eye Body" (1963) and "Meat Joy" (1964), the impe-
tus came from a combination of the writings of Wilhelm
Reich, Antonin Artaud, and Simone de Beauvoir's Secono
Se.\". "Eye Body" was a performance in my New York loft
• AJ: Who else influenced you? which I had transformed into an "environment" -with
• CS: Virginia Woolf-when I was 14 I found a book 4x9-foot panels, broken mirrors and glass, lights, photo-
by her in a bookmobile van. You'd go meet the book van graphs and motorized umbrellas. Then in a kind of sha-
and rent books for two weeks, then the van would return manic ritual I incorporated my own naked body into the
and you could get new ones. I remember reading The constructions-putting paint, grease and chalk on my-
WalJ&! in a barn, with a huge spider web next to me, self. At one point I had live snakes crawling over my
crying because I knew T wanted to do things with this body! Only later did I realize the affinity of this to the
kind of density and fragmentation, this slipperiness and famous statue of a Cretan goddess whose body is deco-

68
rated with serpents.
• AJ: Your performances show your own life-
• CS: But I mistrust intensely whatever you might call
your "own life" because whatever it is, it might already
be colonized by principles and aesthetic ideals that soci-
ety offers you. So my work has to do with cutting through
the idealized (mostly male) mythology of the "abstracted
self" or the "invented self' -i.e., work involving another
kind of glorification/falsification where you direct JOI1U-
one eLJe to do an act you wouldn't do yourself ... so you
retain power and distancing over the situation. In my
work in performance and film, nothing happens that I
haven't first tried myself-usually with a lot of fear and
uncertainty, because I need risk-I need to push my own
boundaries.
• AJ: Your book, More Tball Meat Juy (1977) seems
so contemporary, although it includes writings from
the 1960's-
• CS: We live in a cuLture of oblivion that perpetrates a
kind of JeLf-induced deniaL in which the meaning of the
recent past is continually lost or distorted ... much like
feminist history was always lost or distorted. The cultur-
al history each generation creates is immediately turned
into waste: "That's oLd Jhit!"Whereas my work is address-
ing issues involving 3000 years of Western patriarchal Photo, John Haynes
"Meat Joy," 1964
imposition. So if I'm fighting with some younger artist
about the past 15 years-I'm already suspicious: those
are not the right stakes! had to have a lot of rehearsals. It was performed for Jean-
My performance "Meat Joy" came from a dream. It Jacques Lebel's "Festival for Free Expression" in Paris
was a celebration of the flesh as well as an assault on and caused a scandal-at the end the performers (who
repressive culture. The performers were untrame ,so we were mostly nude-if they'd been totally nude they would

"Meat Joy," 1964 "Meat Joy," 1964

69
 have been arrested) were smearing each other with dead of what I "m" would have any correspondence to what I
6sh, chicken parts and raw sausages in an absolute frenzy! jelt-the intimacy of the lovemaking. It was almost a
One man came out of the audience and tried to strangle Heisenbergian dilemma: will the camera distort every-
me, but three older women realized this was not part of the thing? (There was no camera person present.)
performance and came up and saved me!
• AJ: In FU<Je.J you were filming your lovemaking
with your partner. What themes were you exploring?
• CS: That's a silent film. One issue was: the permi.J-
.lion to dee. As the daughter of a rural doctor, I grew up In my experience men would
seeing first-hand blood and guts and limbs that were rather tear a relationship apart
chopped off-there was no eJiting-when there's an ac- than adjust, adapt and change
cident, body parts "you're not supposed to see" are
what needs to be changed in
sticking out! Then I worked in animal husbandry where
ifyou're artificially inseminating a cow, you don't put a their psyche. They prefer the
drape over it or close your eyes and hope that the "herOICS ." 0 f evtUiwn. .
syringe finds the right spot ...
As a painter you have to .lee. I always felt there was
something in a fruit that was as taboo as genitals were - -
where the stem comes out. You were never forbidden to
look in a concavity or convexity of anything that was The camera brings back very strange hallucinatory
animal or mineral or vegetable ... only humanjracture.l imagery, and it's not real -its representations are imprint-
were explicit and therefore taboo. So when I made the ed on this material and then projected. And to imagine
film of my longtime lover [composer James Tenney] and that it's "real," and therefore can be censored, seems to
I lovemaking, basically I wanted to see if the experience me almost a depraved attitude, because it's not reaL it's

"Infinity Kisses," 1981-87. Ongoing performance with Carolee's kissing cat.

70
 "Axis in Parallel" Photo: Shelley Farkas

film, and mine in particular is baked, stamped, stained, desk!" and come tearing up the stairs. Then he'll sneak
painted, chopped and reassembled. And I wanted to put up and perch on my shoulder while I'm typing and
into that materiaLity of ftlm the energies of the body, so suddenly there's this cat tongue in my mouth and I say,
that the film itself dissolves and recombines and is trans- "Oh -where did you come from? VeJperl" and he's purr-
parent and dense-like how one feels during lovemak- ing and his little ears are down and his paws are on my
ing. Even though the film doesn't fulftll a pornographic cheek. I have a lot of cat-directed, cat-inspired work...
expectation in terms of its editing or rhythms or organi- • AJ: How did you develop your performances?
zation, everything normaL-which is to say everything in • CS: Performance, for me, developed from the place
heterosexual lovemaking - is there. It is different from where I had to extend the principles of painting and
any pornographic work that you've ever seen-that's construction into reaL time, out of a pressure of imagery
why people are still looking at it! And there's no objecti-
fication or fetishization of the woman.
"Up To And Including
• AJ: How did people react?
Her Limits," 1973-76 Photo: Henrik Gaard
• CS: Women would come up after a showing and say,
"Thank you for restoring me to my whole body; I have
always been in some alienation from my own genital
self-thank you!" Some people said, "This makes me
sick-I want to throw up!" Or, "I don't get a hard-on-
this isn't really about sex!" The Jungians discerned the
Aphroditean aspects of the "return to water" and "the
light streaming from the window" in the house I still live
in. And there's also the presence of the cat, Kitch, who in
some sense was the medium through which the fum
evolved - or was it the director? - because it was this
eat's pure pleasure, her shameless attention watching us
make love, that made me want to see what Jhe saw!
I love cats; I had one kissing cat, Cluny (they're very
rare). He died, but just recently came back into another
carnate form; his name is Vesper. And he's an obsessive
kisser. In front of the house there are acres of fields and
squirrels and mice, and he'll poke his face out the door,
then suddenly think, "Wait- I think she's upstairs at the

71
 built up an incredible mo-
mentum and started to
turn me, like a pendulum.
Suddenly I was in mo-
tion-but I hadn't shift-
ed my body or doneanythU7g!
And sometimes it was
wickedly fast.
Basically, my work
deals with the "sacred
erotic" or the "ecstatic."
And the body is not in-
jured or terribly stressed
-even in its most ener-
getic, intense physicality
it's not concerned with
deformation or violence
or denial of pleasure-
the body is enacting
something eC4tatic for me.
Thatdwhere I want to go!
• AJ: Your work in-
volves eroticism, the
embracing of the body,
whereas Stellarc calls
his hanging the "Obso-
lete Body," the denial of
the body-
• CS: Well, that has to
do with endurance, pun-
ishment and fragmenta-
tion. Nevertheless, aLL of
these approaches are
valuable in a society
which has denied the in-
telligence and the prima-
cy of the body. Some
"Body Collage," 1968 Photo> Michael Benedikt artists want to explore
guilt, shame, repression
or revulsion with the
and didactic information that could only be vitalized in body; I don't choose that role. And this is used against
that way. Because the body, taking that energy into imme- me; critics complain, "Oh, you make it too easy!" or
diacy, has a value that static depiction won't carry, repre- "This is fluffy" or "sensualist" or "regressive" or ...
sentation won't carry-it has to actually be in real time. • AJ: To dismiss that as "fluffy" indicates sickness
When you're submerged in your material you have to in this society-
have intense concentration; here entrancement involves • CS: Yes, it's still working within the patriarchal con-
repetition. In one trance piece, "Up To and Including Her structs but taking them to another degree of suppressive-
Limits," I suspended myself in a harness from a rope for ness, because to the degree it refuses to address the
8 hours. I got on the rope when the space opened and ecstasy of the body, and to the degree to which it denies
when it closed I stopped, so it was like a day's labor the particularity of female sexuality and insists that it's ?-
frame. And the ecstatic anti-gravitational sensation of COI1Jtruct-weiL there's no wa that female orgasm is a
being suspended -like floating free in space - required a "construct" for me! /'
lot of muscular balance so I didn't tip over or fall down. In one performance, "Interior Scroll," [1975] I stood
The concentration was totally on the rope-the harness naked in front of the audience, extracted a paper scroll
was very light, very free, but it also required a lot of from my vagina and read a text on "Vulvic Space"-
strength. And this piece had to do with getting rid of about the abstraction of the female body and its loss of
intentionality or repetition - trying to change my own meaningsVsaw the vagina as a "translucent chamber of
habitJ. Because I was a point of weight on this rope which which the serpent was an outward model." I related the

72
 womb and the vagina to
"primary knowledge" by
which our woman ances-
tors measured their men-
strual cycles, pregnancies,
and lunar observations .
• AJ: That whole
mindset which would
dismiss your work as
"fluffy" would also dis-
nllssenvironIOentalcon-
cerns: the earth body-
• CS: Let's call it "trivi-
al" instead of "fluffY," be-
cause even to use the word
"fluffY" confuses the issue

7 ... The dominance of the

sex-negative imagination
fuels itself on the denial
of the body, its denigra-
tion, its split from spirit,
its split from nature-the
whole construct as really
a techno-metaphYJI.cJ where
the godhead is so strange-
ly devitalized, his form it-
self is a crucified body that
no longer speaks or acts
or moves but is fUled with
genital suppression. You
worship this dead genital
figuration with its exclu-
sionary propriety of be-
ing "male" ... so that the
authenticating source of
vitality is a distanced male
god, a Holy Ghost, a cru-
cified phallus. And all the
female attributes are com-
pletely distorted so you
get this demented mythol-
ogy where the god is born
from a Virgin [!] or from
a god's forehead or from
an underarm. . . any-
thing that can lMurp the fe-
male primacy!
Not only do we have to "Interior Scroll," 1975-77
live out this male schizo-
phrenia culturally, but we have to live it out in our their psyche. They prefer the "heroics" of eVaJion.
personal lives. First the truth is sacrificed, then you're • AJ: How do you maintain your relationships with
next. It's a mess - it's sad and wasteful. And the patterns men?
of male self-aggrandizement, low self-esteem and castra- • CS: Well, my primary bedrock relationship with the
tion fantasies fulfill themselves in endless adventures and composer/musician James Tenney confirmed and inspired
penetrations - then ()eniaL of what they have built up with me to take risks, because I had this one loving, compre-
a partner that might become "coherent." In my experi- hending partner who knew what the conceptual and
ence men would rather tear a relationship apart than erotic truth was behind the work; we did a lot of parallel
adjust, adapt and change what needs to be changed in intellectual research. And I realized recently that when
 on. But I crawled out of
that ... we're aLL doing it!
It's difficult to find a really
intelligent man who shares a
commitment to feminist issues
and practice, who reads the
same material I read ...
someone who knows what's
happening with this reinves-
tigation of "inherited culture."
• AJ: A lot of men just feel
guilty and offended by the
information -
• CS: -as if personally
they're responsible ... or will
lose some "self-definition" by
dismantling 3000 years of crap.
Give us our daily bullshit!
"Thames Crawling," London, 1972 • AJ: This is the first time
I know of in history where a
large group of women are de-
I've lost a primary relationship, I usually stop perform- fining their own roles, their
ing. But that's a pattern - I see that now. own genitality, their own eroticism, and their own
• AJ: Is it because the sexuality and eroticism are- rules-
• CS: -yes, energizing. Also, it means that I can release • CS: -and their own language and their own reposi-
this energy into the universe without feeling I'm going to tioning of lost history. However, some very remarkable,
be aume with the reactions-whether depraved, unpre- essential feminist research has been done by male schol-
dictable or positive. But now I've been learning that I ars. Bram Dijkstra's [()ou of Pervlr<Jity is an extraordinary
have to do it all alone, because I lost a very loving partner- examination of misogynist genitalphobia in the history of
ship - he left. And I had a magical inspiring cat - I felt the past 100 years of Western painting. There's another
that as long as I had "Cluny" with me I'd be okay-but book all about the penis, The DurabLe Fig Leaf by Mark
he died from a rat bite. Then my best friend died; I slit my Strage, which contains a cultural analysis of the male
thumb in half-the list of misfortunes just went on and regard, and depictions and distortions of the penis. And,
of course, behind all this is
"Dirty Pictures," a performance with slide projections Photo by: Lisa Kahane Bachhoven and those early
r-------------------------, Victorian pioneers who read-
dressed the aspect ofthe myth-
ic feminine, and the pioneering
examination of misogyny, The
Dangeroll.J Sex by H.R. Hayes.
• AJ: Do you read theo-
rists such as Derrida?
• CS: I find him female-
phobic also, with a very elab-
orate "re-construction" which
involves repossession ... a
way to dominate and reincor-
porate the female principle.
Baudrillard is equally creepy!
Lacan, Freud, Jung, Engels-
they all have to be subjected
to a more thorough analysis.
Derrida's language is exclu-
sively. male: he only has one
pronoun!
• AJ: You've tried to truly
remake your language-
• CS: I've fought about lan-

74
guage from the beginning-what I called the "Missing me things I never forgot, such as: I was only half a soul,
Pronoun" and the "Missing Genital." In college back in and that there was a little boy who was my other half
the '60s I wanted to study Simone de Beauvoir in philos- wandering somewhere in the world, and we would find
ophy class. And my teacher was a very gracious, charm- each other. And she told me about herding sheep in
ing Southern gentleman who said, "Why Carolee, you Scotland with her brothers - they would sleep out in the
don't want to study the writings of the miJtreJJ; you want open huddled next to the bodies of the sheep when it was
to study the writings of the MaAer. You can read Sartre." cold, and eat dried meat and cheese-that freedom and
And it was the same with wanting to study Woolf-no, connection with the "animal self' seemed so clear and
you could read Proust, Joyce, Mann, or Kafka! For me,
unearthing the female mind has really inspired the use
and meaning of "the body." I research non-Western cul-
~::e $
tures to establish connection to other forms of depiction HIs this what you're so scared of:
of the body.
this moist pussy? Is thiJ the
• AJ: Art is not divorced and alienated from life;
when exteriorized in performance it can become a Terrifying Other -- the clitoris
healing for the audience or the society- that has to be excised or chopped
• CS: A healing or a shock; an imposition; a slicing. off or rendered mute?"
The healing may be slower but sometimes there's a glimpse
of feelings and conceptual connections that take off ...
• AJ: Who else was influential in your life?
• CS: When I was four years old, my Scottish nanny appropriate to me. And she taught me my first Zen joke:
would wake me up at 4 AM and take me to a window "Do you know what's inside your knuckles? Little nug-
where we would look at the moon. She taught me to gets of gold!" So if you're ever all alone in the world and
study it and to pray to it, so that my grandfather, who had feel helpless, you can get a hammer, crack open your
recently died, would appear and speak to me. She taught knuckles and retrieve that gold. What a dilemma!

Carolee directing the film Water Light / Water NeeiJle, 1966

75
 told about this Gulf War
were psychotic.
• AJ: To have any
awareness, man or wom-
an, you can't help but
be, to some degree, an-
gry.
• CS: That courage de-
rived from righteous en-
ergized anger; it was part
of the energy to change
things - to challenge the
closed suffocating forms
... Now the goddesses
are back and no one
knows what to do with
them! And we ask, "Is this
what you're so scared of:
this moist pussy? Is thiJ
the TerrifYing Other -
the clitoris that has to be
excised or chopped off or
rendered mute?"
• AJ: Back in the '60s,
you had a whole genera-
tion ofwomen that need-
ed-
• CS: -to masculinize
and neutralize ... but
now in San Francisco
women are aJorning - I've
never seen so many amaz-
. .
mg earnngs.
• AJ: You did an in-
credible performance re-
cently-
• CS: - based on the
"vaginal orgasm": that
suffusing, intense energy.
I've read a lot of descrip-
tions of orgasms, and
some women will say,
"The vagina was sensitive
enough." Different wom-
Photo, Chris Buck en have different physi-
calities; if you don't have
• AJ: That's a devilish one ... You made the obser- vaginal orgasms you might think it's an invention or a
vation that women probably made most of the early lie or another masculinized deformation. The clitoris
artifacts that have been discovered- really iJn't a correlative to the male, because the male
• CS: I assume those ancient "goddess" figurines were orgasm is so propulsive, intensive, with tremendous
made by women. acceleration. Whereas the clitoris is really a very subtle,
• AJ: You also wrote that women need a base of delicate organ. The idea that it's like a penis is wrong;
strength, self-confidence and validated achievement male and female genitals are not homologous.
to have a directed anger- • AJ: You did a political performance, "Snows,"
• CS: WelL rage and hllmor are two of the reins-I which was based on the Vietnam War-
don't want to let go of either one! They fuel your ability • CS: I've done another work on the destruction of
to take the next step; they advance you. We have a Palestinian culture in Lebanon, which displays a series of
tremendous base of outrage: all the lies and destruction paintings and a sculpture with a video, "War Mop." It's

76
an ordinary mop moved by elegant plastic gears; it slaps ristic Western "culture" was destroying all these ancient
a video monitor every 10 seconds. On the monitor is a goddess sites with no overt consciousness that tbiJ was
very seductive pan through this village that looks vague- being obliterated. We don't know if the Hanging Gar-
ly like Santa Barbara, with a shimmering sea off to the dens of Babylon or the Gate of Ishtar, the largest ceramic
left ... then there's all these JmitbereellJ: fragments of arch in civilization, still exist. Key archeological sites are
colored glass, wrought iron and ancient stone ... and in areas that our tanks moved through.
then it pans down a totally desolate road with some • AJ: You said this war is too much for you-
burnt-out automobiles into the house of a Palestinian • CS: It's a phallocentric mania, it's psychotic, and the
woman who's screaming at the camera-her living room language of this war has all been about "creaming them,
is behind her, and it almost looks normal until you see surrounding and killing them, pounding them relentless-
birds fly through it. and you realize it's been bombed ly" ... it's the jerk-offlanguage ofmen who can never cum.
apart-half of it's intact, and the rest is gone! There's a It's like a gang-bang, an endless rape with the heaviest
lamp and a bookshelf and a sofa there, but no walls. battering ram, the battering cock.
I studied the history of Lebanon, the history of the • AJ: Someone sent me a newspaper clipping claim-
Palestinians, and charted day-by-day the systematic de- ing that Air Force pilots were being shown porno fihns
struction by the Israelis. 1 went to the Lebanese tourist prior to the bombings-
bureau the day before it closed and they gave me all their • CS: -A displacement whereby orgasmic energy be-
touristic slides of people weaving nets, making pottery, comes pure destructive energy.
fishing, skiing, swimming ... I had all this "before-and- • AJ: It's thought there may be as many as 300,000
after" material in my hands, and then did this slide lec- Iraqis dead, yet this has been referred to as a "blood-
ture which was the most despised piece I ever did-people less" war using "surgical" air strikes.
just did not want to acknowledge this information. Be- • CS: Well, now they're saying they overestimated
cause Lebanon really had no equal armaments, no so- the damage ... it's all just one confabulation after
phisticated defense systems, no air force! another. The few bizarre reports that come through are
The Gulf War was so carefully calculated and the so horrific: blasting away at thousands of camels be-
news such a video masquerade that - I can't deal with it. cause they saw "something" moving and didn't know
And it's no accident that the most technological, milita- what it was, so they obLiterated it ... There's just that
increasing degree of tecbnoLogicaL abJtractwn, so you have
Photo: Chris Buck no vision of what you're affecting-no concept, no vi-
sion, no contact.•••

EarLy d Recent Work. NY: McPhersonIDocumentext, 1983.

More Tban Meat Joy: Complete Performance WorkJ d SeLected
WritingJ, NY: McPherson/Documentext, 1979.
280pp, illus.
Ci=nne, Sbe Wad a Great Painter. NY, Trespass Press,
1976.
200 Mattre.1JeJ. Catalog, Wash, DC, 1975.
PartJ of a Body Howe Book. Devon, UK: Beau Geste Press,
1972.
umerous interviews & articles have appeared in peri-
odicals such as Interview; Act: JournaL of Performance Art;
Peiformance; Red BadJ; HereJleJ 25; Tbeater in Sigbt; EncLitic
(U SC); Ro:quiJite CorpJe; Guardian (London); MiLLenium Film
Journal,' Afterima.c;e 7; Performing Artd JournaL; Ear Maga-
zine; and in books such as NotatwllJ by John Cage; Fan-
tadtic Arcbitecture (eds. D. Higgins & W. Vostell); Tbeater
of tbe FemaLe BOdy (ed. Dianne Hunter); EJtbetud Contem-
porary (edited by Richard Kostelanetz); A CriticaL Cinem.a
(inliv by Scott MacDonald); Down and In: Life in tbe Under-
ground by Ronald Sukenick; PS.1 CataLog, 1985, etc.

77
 ~~,~
hell hoolu has pushed feminist theory to new limits in her wntmg-
integrating postmodern speculations, cultural criticism, neglected literature
and autobiographical disclosure. Slashing the superficial platitudes which
typify these ahutorical times, she calmly and dispassionately revises
"politically correct" views on issues such as racism, male supremacy, and
female separatism. Seeking the broadest possible philosophical base for
reforming our nihilistic, terrorized world, she has written, "There is such a
perfect union between the spiritual quest for awareness, enlightenment, self-
realization - and the struggle of oppressed, colonized people to change our
circumstances, to redidt. .. We must focus on the importance of domination
and oppression in all it.l formJ in our lives if we are to recover ourtJelvu.
Resisting oppression means more than just reacting against one's oppressors-
it means envisioning new habits of being, different ways to live in the world.
And I believe true ruutance hegintJ with people confronting pain-whether it's
theirs or somebody else's - aM wanting to do domething to change it. "
A professor at Oberlin College as well as a writer, hell hoolu has published
Ain't I a Woman: Black Women aM Feminum; FeminiJt Theory: From Margin
to Center; Talking Back: Thinking Feminut, Thinking Black; and Yearning:
Race, GeMer aM Cultural Politic.J (available from South End Press, PO Box
741, Monroe ME 04951. 1-800-533-8478). She has written numerous essays,
plays, novels, short stories, poems, and regularly contributes a bi-monthly
~am ""z'
co Iumn, "S'Isters 0 f t h e 'V" to .
magazIne.

- - - - - - -...~r;jrr; ~ ,~ _

event I really remember was: my grandmother dying in

Part! the bedroom next to mine. My mother put all of us
children to bed (allegedly "to take a nap") because she
• ANDREA JUNO: How did your childhood lead did not want us to lenow. So there was this incredible air
you to your present position: fighting political, racist of mystery about this, and I for one was not going to go to
and sexist oppression? sleep...
• bell hooks: Well, it's funny-I've been trying to as- I got to witness the men from the funeral home com-
semble a collection of essays that are both autobiograph- ing in with the stretcher, and - it's funny, but one of the
ical and critical about death. Because when I think about things I deeply remember is the way they JmeLLe() -and to
my childhood - the kind of early experiences (or what I this day I have trouble with men who wear sweet co-
think of as imprints) that have led me to be who I am lognes. But the most amazing thing was watching my
today, they really revolve around the death of my father's mother closing my grandmother's eyes. Because I saw
mother, Sister Ray. In our work we use autobiographical this and thought, "Wow-if this is death and it can be
experience from our childhood. I wrote a detective novel looked at and faced, then I can do anything I want to in
entitled Silter Ray (my grandmother's name is Rachel, life! Nothing is going to be more profound than this
and that's the name of the detective) and a childhood moment!" And I see this as a moment in time that Jhape()

78
'I'ho 1 became . .. that al-
lowed me to be the rebel-
lious child I was-daring
and risk-taking in the
midst of my parents' at-
tempts to control me.
• AJ: They thought
they could control death
by keeping it hidden-
• bh: Absolutely. It's in-
teresting to me that this
intercession of death and
the death of a foremother
(the women who go be-
fore us) is tied to my
development as an inde-
pendent, autonomous wo-
man. My father's mother
lived alone; she was a
powerful figure. And I
talk a lot with other wom-
en about our experiences
as women working to be
artists-and in my own
case, working not only as
an artist but as a cultural
criticlintellectual in a
world that still isn't ready
for us ... that still hasn't
adapted to who we are.
• AJ: We're all strug-
gling to make these parts
fit together into a whole.
Your writing is not only
philosophical and theo-
retical but also informed
by your personal life.
One of the barriers we're
trying to break down is
that artificial separation
between the so-called
"objective" and the "sub-
jective," the personal and
the political-
• bh: People have writ-
ten to me about my new Photo: Jane Handel
book (Yearning: Race, Gen-
der and Cultural PoLitU:.J) saying, "It's such a heartbreaking past performance, but it's also a moment of autobio-
book ... it's so sad." I think that a lot of what's going on graphical sharing that is a kind of Jtepping out:
"There was a time in my life when I liked to dress
in my work is a kind of theorizing through autobwgraphy or up as a man and go out into the world. It was a form
through storytelling. My work is almost a psychoanalyt- of ritual, of play. It was also about power. To cross-
ical project that also takes place in the realm of what one dress as a woman in patriarchy meant, more so than
might call "performance" -a lot of my life has been a now, to symbolically cross from the world of power-
performance, in a way. lessness to a world of privilege. It was the ultimate
intimate voyeuristic gesture.
In an essay I wrote about Jennie Livingston's film
"Searching old journals for passages document-
PariA IJ Burning, which is about black drag balls in Har- ing that time [ found this paragraph: 'She pleaded
lem, I reminisced about myself cross-dressing years ago. with him: "Just once-well every now and then-I
I was thinking about this as a kind of re-enactment of a just want us to be boys together. I want to dress like

79
 you and go out and make the world look at us have to know when to let go and when to pull back - the
differently and make them wonder about us, make
answer is never just to completely "let go" or "trans-
them stare and ask those silly questions like, 'Is he a
woman dressed up like a man? Is he an older black gress," but neither is it to always "contain yourself" or
gay man with his effeminate boy/girl/lover flaunting "repress." There's always some liminal [as opposed to
same-sex out in the open?' Don't worry, I'll take it subliminal] space in between which is harder to inhabit-
all very seriously. I won't let them laugh at you. I'll because it never feels as safe as moving from one extreme
make it real 'Keep them guessing' ... do it in such a
way that they will never know./i,r,IIlre. Don't worry:
to another.
when we come home ['II be a girl for you again. But • AJ: There are lots of paradoxes to deal with; where
for now, I want us to be boys together." are our Lack of differences?! In a "z" magazine article
[reprinted after interview] you wrote about seeing
Then I wrote that "Cross-dressing, appearing in drag, your father beat up your mother - can you talk about
transsexualism, are all choices that emerge in a context that, and your feelings of murderous rage and terror
where the notion of subjectivity is challenged ... where mingled together?
identity is always perceived as capable of construction, • bh: It's funny-when you reminded me of that I felt
invention, change." really "exposed." I know that my mother and father don't
I was thinking about this a lot, because today, even read "Z" and would probably never read it unless some-
before we can have a contemporary feminist movement one sent it to them, but they would be very devastated
or a discourse on postmodernism, we have to consider and hurt that I was exposing something about their
"positionaliries" that are shaking up the idea that any of private life to the public. At the same time I deeply
us are inherently anything-that we become who we are. needed to express something, I was also frightened by
So a lot of my work views the confessional moment as a the kind of "construction of difference" that makes it
transformarive moment-a moment of performance where appear that there is some space of rage and anger that
you might step out of the fixed identity in which you men inhabit, that is alien to us women. Even though we
were seen, and reveal other aspects of the self ... as part know that men's rage may take the form of murder (we
of an overall project of more fl/lLy becoming who you are. certainly know that men murder women more than wom-
en murder men; that men commit most of the domestic
violence in our lives), it's easy to slip into imagining that
those are "male" spaces, rather than ask the question,
There was a time when I liked to "What do we aJ women do with our rage?"
dress up as a man and go out into I've found that most children who have witnessed
parental fighting (where a man has hurt or hit a woman)
the world ... to symbolically cross
identifY with the woman/victim when they retell the
from the world of powerl&Mne.:M to event(s). And I was struck that what 1 didn't want to
the world of privilege. retell was the fact that I didn't just identifY with my
mother as the person being hurt, but I identified with my
father as the hurting person, and wanted to be able to
really hurt htin! My play daughter (who's an incest survi-
• AJ: This is very important. You write about how vor) and I were talking about this recently-
separatism or exclusionism really reinforces the older • AJ: What do you mean by "play daughter"?
patriarchical hierarchy - therefore we need to analyze • bh: When I was growing up, that was a term used in
all the processes of separation operating within the Southern black life for informal adoptions. Let's say you
black community, the women's community, etc. You're didn't have any children and your neighbor had 8 kids.
talking about reintegration with a whole new set of You might negotiate with her to adopt a child, who
rules- would then come live with you, but there would never be
• bh: -as well as a different vision of expanJionwm any kind offormal adoption -yet everybody would rec-
(and not that imperiali.lf expansionism that was about, ognize her as your "play daughter." My community was
"Let's go out and annex more land and conquer some unusual in that gay black men also were able to informal-
more people! ") but about allowing the self to grow. I ly adopt children. And in this case there was a kinship
think of Sam Keen's popular book, The PaJJwnate L~(e: structure in the community where people would go home
Stage,l of Lo"ing, which declares that one wants to grow and visit their folks if they wanted to, stay with them (or
into a passionate human being, and that to some extent what have you), but they would also be able to stay with
having fIXed boundaries does not allow that kind of the person who was loving and parenting them.
growth. In my case I met this young woman, Tanya, years ago
I really shudder when people tell me, "I only want to when I was giving a talk, and I felt that she really needed
associate with [this little crowd]," because I think, "Well, a mother. At the time I was really grappling with the
what if what you really need in life is over there in question, "Do I want to have a child or not?" And I said,
another group? Or in another location?" It's interesting: "Come on into my life; I need a child and you seem to
the way in which one has to balance life: because you need a mother!" And we've had a wonderful relation-

80
ship; I've watched her become more fully who she's sense of empowerment when I realized I didn't bave to
meant to be in this world. From her talking about the identify with the victim-
experience of incest, a theory emerged: if you were in • bh: Certain feminist writings by lesbian women on
some traumatic moment where you felt a particular emo- SM discuss what role playing is in terms of power. A
tion, and then you repressed that emotion (let's say, for woman can take on ritualized role playing in terms of
IOyears), and didn't allow yourself to feel anything ... con/ront/jzg a dragon, and realize that in the confrontation of
then, when you open the door to those emotions you've that dragon (through the role playing), it no longer has
closed off, you "till have to work through that last emo- power over you. I think it's been really hard ..for some
tion you were feeling. In other words, this is not like feminists to "hear" that the ritualized role playing in
some other kind of emotional coming out - it's like: you've eroticism and sexuality can be empowering . .. because
made that emotion incubate by locking it away, so when there's such a moralistic tendency to only see it as a
you reopen those doors, the emotion that first emerges is oL.lempowering reenactment of the patriarchy's sexual poli-
IIwn"tro/i<I - tics. Whereas: in all forms of ritual and role playing, if it
• AJ: Like facing "the belly of the beast"; facing is empowering and if one is truly only engaged in play
incredible rage- acting, so to speak, there's the possibility of re-enacting
• bh: Absolutely. I still think men have not fully named the drama of something that terrifies you ... of working
and grappled with the dorrow" ofboyhood in the way femi- symbolically through it in a way that touches back on
nism gave us as women ways to name some of the trage- your real life, so that ultimately you are more empowered.
dies of our "growhood" in sexist society. I think males are
just beginning to develop a language to name some of the
tragedies for them - to express what was denied them. If
I imagine myself as a boy witnessing the grown father I still think men have not fully
hitting the mother-well, what "positionality" does the
named and grappled with the
boy feel himself to be in? Clearly he doesn't think, 'Tm
going to grow up to be a woman who will be hit." So does tforrowtf of boybooiJ in the way
he then have to fear: "I will grow up to be this person feminism gave us as women ways to
who hits-therefore I'd better live my life in such a way name some of the tragedies of our
that Ine"ergrow lip"? Like a lot of women, I feel that I've
i/ growhood" in sexist society.
loved men who made that decision to never grow up
"because then I'll become that monstrous Other." I think
that's why so many men in our culture don't allow those
doors to ever be opened: because there's domethi/~r; in the
experience of boyhood they witnessed- • AJ: I think that so many women really need to do
• AJ: -which is just too traumatic . . . Beyond this: confront those fears.
merely polarizing the men as "victimizers" and leaving • bh: In an essay on the construction of "whiteness" in
it at that, we have to recognize that men are just as the black imagination, I wrote about black people really
crippled as women. What's very liberating here is the being fearful of white people, and how it's really become
whole notion of not identifying with victimization- a cliche or a "no-no" to talk about having that fear. I gave
that there could be an empowerment ifyou would just this paper recently at a university, and a young black
feel that rage, instead of merely shutting down and man who was my host said that my paper really dis-
being victimized- turbed him - finally he had realized that he really oid feel
• bh: In Toni Morrison's The BI/te.Jt Eye (one of my a certain fear ofwhite people, without ever having thought
favorite novels), there's a moment when the little girl, a about (or faced) that fact.
victim of rape/incest, says to another little girl whom she In our culture, black men are constructed as such a
wants to be angry, "Anger is better-there is a predence in threat: they can pose on the street corner or on the street
anger." I was always moved by that contrasting of victim- as people who are in power, in control. And the culture
ization vs. being victimized; it's important to maintain the doesn't ever give black men a space where they can say,
kind of rage that allows you to redL.lt. "Yes -actually I feel dcared when I see white people com-
• AJ: Yes. When I was a young girl I was petrified ing toward me." When we think of an incident like
of horror films, particularly the psycho/slasher ones, Howard Beach [where a mob of whites killed a young
and I'd even have dreams that they were "coming to black man who had "invaded" their neighborhood], we
get me." So I'd force myself to watch Halloween-type recognize that here were these black men who were not
films where usually a male figure kills hundreds of positioned in people's minds as being potentially afraid-
women (or men, whatever). And I decided to try to that it might be deary for 3 black men to be in the space of
identify with that male ... and it gave me such a dominating whiteness. Instead, all the fear was projected
sense of power. Of course this is in the "safe" area of onto them as objects of threat, rather than as people who
creative expression (film)-so it isn't like I'm going to might inhabit a space of fear. . .
go around killing people! But there was this incredible There was a whole controversy around the fact that

81
these men said that they wanted to use a telephone, and the larger white culture that says, "Color is not important
that they passed by a number of phones (which is what ... don't use that as a basis for bonding." And the fact is:
the opposition cited to prove that they weren't really the person may imagine that by adopting that behavior
being "honest"), and yet there's no suggestion that maybe they're safer, they're moreparto/the.qroup ... when in
they bypassed a number of phones because they were fact we know that they're not necessarily safer, and that
looking for a location in which thtsy would feel greater their safety might actually come from bonding with the
safety. We have so little understanding about how black other person of color.
people fear white people in daily life... I think the same can be said of women who enter
Recently I was staying in New York. Sometimes I spheres of power, and who feeL "It's important for me
would get in the elevator and then see a white person never to show bonding or allegiance to another woman,
approaching-so I'd try to hold the elevator ... and most because that will show I'm weak." Whereas the irony is:
times they would brush me away! I would just be amazed we're more strengthened when we can show the self-love
at the idea that possibly they were afraid to go up in the expressed through bonding with those who are like our-
elevator with me because I was black. And I thought selves.
about how afraid I am to go up in elevators with white • AJ: It's always threatening to the male power struc-
people. ture when women get together and are friends.
• bh: And I think right now we're at a historical mo-
ment when we all have to talk about, "How can I be
bonded with other black people in a way that is not
A woman can take on ritualized constructed to be oppressive or exclusionary to other
role playing in terms of confronting people?" I think that this can be viewed as a ma.qU:af
moment: "What does it mean to try to affirm someone,
a uragon7 and realize that in the without excluding somebody else?"
confrontation, it no longer has I just gave a talk at Barnard College in front of a large
power over you. It's been really audience, and a black woman came in late who seemed
. . to I/h"
hard £or some £emlnlsts ear somewhat distressed. I wanted to reach out to her and
say, "Hey, you're really welcome here, I'm glad to see
that the ritualized role playing in you!" (and I always think about: "How do you do that in
eroticism and sexuality such a way that you don't make other people feel that
can be empowering . .. somehow her presence is more important than anybody
else's?" because it isn't-all the presences are important.
So I always try to give off a real aura of warmth and
welcome to everyone.) When she came in, I walked over
• AJ: Well, in a way blacks and other people of and stuck out my hand to her and ... I got this sweet
color become the disembodied shadows of the power letter from her saying that this action meant so much to
structure; they symbolize the guilt the power struc- her: "I was stunned by the spontaneous lovingness of the
ture can't acknowledge that is then projected on to gesture you made toward me. It will take some time
them as fear. before I fully internalize the lessons of relatedness and
• bh: And I think it's really dangerous for us if we sisterhood it showed me."
internalize those projections, because it means (and I Part of what I try to express in my work is that racism,
think this has particularly been the case for black men) sexism, homophobia and all these things really wound us
that we then shut off those areas of vulnerability in in a profound way. Practically everybody acknowledges
ourselves. It's a kind of defense to imitate those who have that incest is wounding to the victim, but people don't
wounded you, because: to the degree that you become want to acknowledge that racism and sexism are wound-
them, you imagine you are ,fare. (Or rather: to the degree ing in ways that make it equally hard to function as a Self
that you become the way they ,fay you should be, you in everyday life. And ... something like having a person
imagine you are safe.) So I try to talk about the process reach out to you with warmth can just be healing...
of "assimilation" as a kind of mask, as an amulet almost, • AJ: I think a lot of people need integrating philos-
whereby you feeL "I can ward off the evil of this by ophies now. Things are so alienated, fascistic and po-
becoming it, or by appearing to be it." It's a kind of larized- it's very sad that we're all sort of "Displaced
cammlfa.qe. Others"... Everyone who really wants to change the
• AJ: Can you give an example? world needs so much to be bonded together with our
• bh: When I enter a room where other black people differences, instead of separated.
are present, I might want to speak to another black • bh: That was one of the ideas I tried to express when
person and acknowledge them -and that person might I chose Yearning as a book title. At dinner last night when
look away as if to say, "Don't think that just because I looked around me across differences, I wondered, "What
we're black we have something in common." To some is uniting us?" All of us across our different experiences
extent that person has decided to imitate the behavior of were expressing this longing, this deep and profound

82
yearning, to just have this domination end. And what I And it's those positionings that make it hard for Asian
feel unites you and me is: we can locate in one another a women and black women to come together ... but I
similar yearning to be in a morejwt world. So I tried to think we have to be more public in naming the ways that
evoke the idea that if we could come together in that site we dare to cross those boundaries and come together.
of desire and longing, it might be a potential place for
community-building. Rather than thinking we would
come together as "women" in an identity-based bonding,
we might be drawn together rather by a commonality of Black men are constructed as such
feeling. I think that's a real challenge for us now: to think
a threat: they can pose on the
about constructing community on different Da.Je.I.
Eunice Lipton, a woman art historian, said, "What
street as people who are in power,
would it mean for us to look at biography not from the in control. Yet the culture doesn't
standpoint of people's accomplishments, but from what ever give black men a space where
people deJired." I thought, "Wow -what a different way they can say, uYes-actually I feel
to conceptualize life and the vaLue oflife." Again, this goes
away from the imperialist model where you're thinking
clcared when I see white people
of life in terms of "who or what you have conquered," . toward
comIng "
me.
toward: "what you have actualized within yourself?" So
her question concerned: "What if biography were to tell
about deJire, not achievement-then how would we tell a
woman's life?" I think that's really powerful. • AJ: Right. Wanda Coleman said that when she
• AJ: Our identities are so constructed that you hit goes to a party and is the only black woman there,
a brick wall if you attempt to say what women "are," suddenly she has the burden of being the "representa-
because one can always think of exceptions. All con- tive of black culture," particularly with well-meaning
structed identities such as "Black" or "Chicano" are "liberal" types, and that this was exhausting-she just
sort of negative identities against the world of white wanted to have a gOOd time!
Wasp "ideals." For many women, what bonds us is: • bh: Right-you may think of race as just one facet of
what is againJt us. "who they are," but that facet doesn't mean they inher-
• bh: Right, and that's not enough to build community ently know the "collectivity"! I went to a dinner party
upon-one has to build community on much deeper where a young white woman who seemed to be an admir-
bases than "in reaction to." You heard about the Korean er of my work wanted to sit next to me ... but immedi-
woman shopkeeper and the young black woman she ately she said, 'Tm having problems with my black woman
murdered? In Los Angeles, this woman came into the roommate, and I just wanted to know ifyou could tell me
store, took some juice and put it in her backpack, then why she's behaving this way?" I replied, "You know-if
held out the money to pay for it and was shot to death by you wanted to know about Buddhism, would you grab
the shopkeeper (who claimed she was being attacked). the first Buddhist priest you met and say, 'Really tell me
But when the video was replayed, people could see clear- all about it in the space of a half hour'?"
ly that she was not being attacked. And this can become I think that often, when it comes to race or meaning
the way relations between Korean!Asian women and acrOJJ difference, people just lose their rational capacity
black women are projected. Those of us who have had to know how to approach something - I think a lot of
very different kinds of relations (where we've learned white people give up their power of knowing. As soon as I
about one another's cultures) haven't been vocal enough said that to this young woman, she knew she should
to propagate a representation that counters this - so that learn more about black culture and black history her-
we see it for the individual moment of madness it is, self-not think she should go to some other black person
rather than a representation of Black!Asian relations. to solve this problem. I asked her, "Why would I under-
When Trinh T. Minh-ha [Vietnamese author/theorist] stand this situation better than you, when you're in it?"
and I come together in love and solidarity, it's usually in But on her part there was this whole sense of: "As a white
private spaces-in our houses, where we talk about what woman, I couldn't possibly understand what a black
we share, the cultures we come from and ways they woman is going through," when in fact (as Thich Nhat
intersect. And one challenge I put forth is: it's no longer Hanh says) understanding comes through our capacity
enough for us to do that-we need to also come out of to empty out the self and identifY with that person whom
those houses and name our solidarities puhLicly with one we normally make the Other. In other words, the mo-
another. ment we are willing to give up our own ego and draw in
I became fascinated by how a lot of the stereotypes for the being and presence of someone else, we're no longer
Asian women ("passive," "non-assertive," "quiet") are "Other-ing" them, because we are saying there's no space
just the opposite of the stereotypes that plague black they inhabit that cannot be a space we can connect with.
women ("aggressive," "loud," "mean"). It's like we exist • AJ: These days relationships are so superficial,
in 2 radically different poles in the economy of racism. cliched, and stereotyped ... but if anyone really talks

83
to somebody, after 10 minutes one forgets or loses by his involvement in black music! A lot of what's hap-
one's self in that other person's emotions- pening now with Madonna and black culture is also
• bh: When people ask. "How do we deal with differ- raising those kinds of questions.
ence?" I always refer them back to what it means to fall • AJ: When I saw Lee Atwater with Chuck Berry,
in love, because most of us have had an experience of there was such an implied colonialism - a certain "slum-
desire and loving. I often say to people, "What do you do ming" quality as he was "playing the blues" with these
when you meet somebody and are attracted to them? black musicians. You felt that the power structure had
How do you go about making that communication? Why not been breached whatsoever.
do you think that wanting to know someone who's 'ra- • bh: Andyet, when I read recently of his death from a
cially' different doesn't have a similar procedure?" It's brain tumor, 1 kept wondering as to what extent his
like: if I saw you on the street and thought you were cute, inhabiting that dchiwphretlu pOdl"tionality had affected his
and I happened to know someone who knew you, I physiological well-being-
might say to that person, "Oh wow, I think so-and-so's • AJ: When he found out he had brain cancer, ap-
CIlte. What do you know about them?" I think that often parently he had a genuine realization that he was
the empowering strategies we use in the arena of love going to die, and tried to apologize to all the people he
and friendship are immediately dropped when we come had hurt.
into the arena of poLituized d(flerence -when in fact some • bh: One of the myths of racism in this society and
of those strategies are useful and neceJJary. patriarchy is: "Those who oppress, do not suffer in any
I mean - how many of us run up to somebody we are way." Yet if we just look closely, we see that this-the
attracted to and say [breathlessly], "Tell me all about most materially luxurious country on the planet-is be-
yourself right away." We usually try to Jeel out the situa- set by all forms of disease and ill health. This in itself is
tion. We don't want to alienate that person; we want to such an interrogation of the price people have had to pay
approach them in a manner that allows them to be open for what has been taken in conquest.
to us ... giving to us. I think it's interesting that often
when Jiffermce is there (like a racial difference or some-
thing), people panu and do crazy, bizarre things ... or
say crazy, stupid things. Racism, sexism, and homophobia
• AJ: Within any politicized group that is formulat- wound us in a profound way.
ing a platform for social change (claiming "gayness" or Everybody acknowledges that
"political correctness")-well, what does that really
mean? For example, if you're in ACT UP, you can have
incest is wounding, but people don't
less in common with a Republican gay than with a acknowledge that racism and
"straight" political anarchist- sexism are wounding in ways that
• bh: Absolutely. I said something similar about the make it equally hard to function as
film Pari.! !J Burning: even though the subject matter
appear.! "radical," it doesn't necessarily mean it's radical.
a Self in everyday life.
Just to portray marginalized black gay subculture is not
necessarily to be giving a portrait of subversion and
oppositional life. One has to question more deeply what
authentic terms of opposition might mean for any of us in • AJ: And people are so profoundly lonely. I saw
our lives. this commercial that struck me like a brick-about a
• AJ: Particularly in this society which has appro- hospital outreach program for alcoholism, drug abuse
priated all the forms of rebellion ... where you have or addiction in general. It cited this statistic: "One out
Lee Atwater playing the blues- of four people will have a mental breakdown." I thought:
• bh: Absolutely. My friend Carol Gregory made a "What a claim for this society!"
video of Lee Atwater [now-deceased campaign manager • bh: And of course we never know about black peo-
for George Bush, responsible for the blatantly racist ple or people of color who are breaking down (in some
Willie Horton commercial], which contrasts him talking way or another) every day, because the political forces
about how much he loved black music, with examples of we contend with in everyday life are so grave that they
the political racism he generated. The separation was so render us helpless. There's no way to even chart those
intense ... breaking-downs, those dysfunctionalities, those moments
• AJ: He fomented the most flagrant racism- when people just feel like-as black woman law profes-
• bh: Yes. She said, "This is what's so tragic ... that sor Patricia Williams wrote in an essay, "There are days
he was not able to allow his fascination with black music where I jlldt Jon't know . .. I look at myself in a shop
to alter his perceptions of race." This also reminds us window and I think, 'Is this crazed human being me?' I
how easily we can appropriate and commodity an aspect don't know who I am." And she talks about how all the
of a people's culture without allowing any personal trans- effort it takes -the forces involved in just JeaLing with
formation to take place - I mean, he was not transformed sexism and racism and all those things -can just destroy

84
our sense of grounding. on the nuclear family emerged.
• AJ: You were talking about black women profes- In fact, the whole focus on "yuppiedom" was really
sors and hair loss? like a public announcement: "If you want to be cool,
• bh: It's interesting that while a lot of professional black you'll return to the patriarchal nuclear family!" And we
women in this society have achieved a great deal, a major know that small alternative communities of people still
factor undermining that achievement is stress. One of the exist, but they don't get a lot of attention. If I think about
things about stress as a response to racism, homophobia, the communities that have gotten a lot of attention from
sexism ... is that it's not something you can chart. I think the mass media (such as the Rajneesh town in Oregon),
about a black woman in a high-powered job who may be it was always negative ... never attention on shared
losing her hair - she may start wearing scarves or hats and worship, shared eating of vegetables (and not being meat-
nobody sees that-nobody registers the crisis she may be eaters), or being peace-Ioving-thatJ not the attention it
in. But it may be made visible by all kinds of physiological got. But whenever something goes wrong-
breakdowns that are happening to her.
• AJ: In the nuclear family structure, dysfunction is
intrinsic. Women in the '40s and '50s were always
having "nervous breakdowns" -that was part of the A lot of people took the failures
"culture" - of the '60s as a sign that, IIS ee _
• bh: In her film, Privilege, Yvonne Rainer shows how
the white medical establishment dealt with menopause
you cannot really make an
and how women were constructed as hysterical, sick, . space. "Whereas I' m
a IternatIve
breaking-down human beings. She also ties that to: how convinced that you can.
we look at race and difference.
• AJ: As a response to this society which is so un-
healthy, anyone with any sensitivity at all has to em-
body dome form of madness- • AJ: - The media are right there to report it. How-
• bh: Absolutely, and I've written a lot about the ne- ever, many "alternative" societies in the '60s brought
cessity for black people to decolonize our mindJ. One of the their same dualistic oppressional thinking to their
things that happens when you decolonize your mind is would-be "paradise" - they just inverted it a little, but
that it becomes hard to function in the society, because it became just as oppressive-
you're no longer behaving in ways people feel comfort- • bh: Even then though, the question becomes: "Do
able with. For example, white people are often much you give up on making the beloved community ... or
more comfortable with a black person who doesn't ask do you realize that you must make it a different way?"
any direct questions, who acts like they don't know Because I feel what happened was: a lot of people took
anything-who appears dumb, in the same way that men the failures of the '60s as a sign that, "See-you cannot
are often more comfortable with a woman who doesn't really make an alternative space." Whereas I'm convinced
appear to have knowledge, strength, power, or what that you call ... if, as you say, you have changed your
have you -who assumes a positionality of [timidly], "Oh consciousness and your actions prior to trying to create
I don't know what I'm doing." And when that person that space.
becomes empowered, it can totally freak out the people I think that when we enter those new spaces with the
that they're with, and around, and work for. same old negative baggage, then of course we don't pro-
On the other hand, when you begin to move out of the duce something new and different in those spaces! It's
dysfunctionality (as we know from our movements of like - I remember going to this town and working with a
recovery) ... when you begin to change toward health number of other black women. I said to them, "We
in a dysfunctional setting, it becomes almost impossible should buy a building together. Why should we all be
to remain in that setting ... yet here we are in a whole paying rent to some nasty white landlord?" And they all
dysfunctional society with nowhere to go! [laughs] So I feel looked at me and said weird shit like, "Why would we
that we have to create what Thich Nhat Hanh calls want to live in the same space? What about privacyl" They
"communities of resistance" -so that there are places raised all these negative issues and I realized, "These
where we can recover, and return to ourselves more fully. people would rather be victimized than think about tak-
• AJ: Can you explain this more? ing some agency or control over their lives." And all the
• bh: Well, he's created this village in France called values that were being raised (such as "privacy" or "indi-
Plum Vtllage. It's a place where different people go and vidualism") were really myths-I mean, what privacy do
grow things, and live a "mindful" life together. Some- we really have? I didn't feel I had any privacy in my little
times I get really distressed by the extent to which we, in building where my landlady watched my comings and
the United States, have moved away from the idea of goings like a hawk. I didn't feel I had any autonomous
commllnitieJ - ofpeople trying to have Jifferent world views existence there. Because this wasn't a help/ul watching-
and value systems. In the '60s there was a lot of focus on it wasn't like someone who cared about me was watching
such communities, but that sort of died out, and a refocus me, wanting my life to be richer and fuller, you know?

85
 • AJ: Right- "privacy" in this country is usually is who I am." There's something very cathartic and
just a euphemism for extreme loneliness, alienation transformative in accepting all the victimizations we've
and fragmentation- gone through - somebody described their incest as a
• bh: And privacy becomes a way of saying, "[ don't "wall ofshame." It's incredibly liberatory to "come out" of
want to have to attend to something outside of myself." the closet of shame-
So it really becomes a screen for a profound IIl1rCl.A,l../II1. • bh: That's why r like that book Shame: The POll'er of
And people "privilege" this narcissism as though it repre- Carin.q [by Gershen Kaufman] because one of the things
sents the "good life." A lot of people will say to me, "How the author says is: There's no experience that we cannot
can you live in this small town of 8,OOO? It would just heal there is no space where we cannot be recon-
drive me nuts for people to klloll' me, and to run into ciled but we can never be reconciled as long as we
people." And I say, "Well, you know, ifyou live your life exist in the realm of deniaL because denial is always
in the open ... " about in<lI/nily. And sanity is so tied to our capacity to face
I love that pulp book by M. Scott Peck, The ROlle) Le<", reality.
Tral'eled. He has an incredibly fun section on lying, where
he says that if you are dedicated to truth and you live
your life without shame, then you don't really have to
care whether your neighbors can see what you're doing If you are dedicated to truth and
... I feel I don't really care if people can see how I live,
you live your life without shame,
because I helieve in how r live. r believe that there is
beauty, and joy, and much that is worthy of being wi/- then you don't really bave to care
ne</Jed in how I live. And I consider it a sign of trouble and whether your neighbors can see
confusion when r start needing "privacy," or to hide. what you're doing.
r think about how privacy is so connected to a politics
of domination. I think that's why there's such an emphasis
in my work on the confeJ,Ilonal, because I know that in a
way we're never going to end the forms of domination if
we're not willing to challenge the notion of puhlic and I remember when I was really struggling around my
private . .. if we're not willing to break down the walls own issues with men and ~ith my father. One day r
that say, "There should always be this separation be- called up my mother (l think I was 22) and was crying,
tween domestic space/intimate space and the world out- "Daddy didn't love me!" Usually my mother would say,
side." Because, in fact, why shouldn't we have intimacy "Of course he loved you; he did this and that ... " But
in the world outside as well? this time, after an hour of torturous conversation, she
• AJ: I really believe in the idea that people break suddenly said, "You're right-he dUJn't love you, and I
down the power structure through the confessional never understood why." And that moment of her ac-
... that just telling the truth in a society that's based knowledging the truth of what I had experienced was
on lies, is a radical act- such a moment of relief! The moment she affirmed the
• bh: Yes-a culture oflies. reality of what had taken place, I was releaJed, because
• AJ: And truth is alwaysliberatory. The very thing somehow what we all know in our wounded childhood
one lies about is usually something one is cuhamed experiences (what the Swiss psychoanalyst Alice Miller
about. And this shame basically enslaves people to the tried to teach us) is: it's the act of living the fictuJIZ that
status quo. For example, in the '50s blacks were trying produces the torturous angst and the anguish ... the
to be white; they were actually ashamed of their black- feeling that you're mind-fucked. I was watching Hitch-
ness-whereas racum should have been the thing to be cock's Spellhound again and I love it when that moment of
ashamed of. Or, take a woman who is ashamed of truth - breaking through denial and re-entering one's
being sexually active and feels "used" - true reality - becomes the hopeful moment, the promise:
• bh: Also, I think that only in a truly supportive envi- when we can know ourselves and not live this life of
ronment can we know the real meaning of privacy or running in flight from reality.
"aloneness." Because the real meaning is not about se- • AJ: When you were talking about being raised in
crets or clandestine activity; I think that "real" (I'm strug- the black community, I was reminded of Philip Aries'
gling with the word "real") 01' "authentic" privacy has to Centuriu of Childhood-
do with being capable of being alone with one's self. And • bh: One ofmy favorite books in the world-
one of the sadnesses of a culture of lies and domination is: • AJ: In the Middle Ages, children weren't raised in
,'0 lIlany people cannot he alone with themJel"e<', They always a nuclear family, but in a healthier extended family-
need the TV, the phone, the stereo -<,omething ... be- • bh: Something I think a lot about is the question of
cause to be alone with the self is to possibly have to see all de,lfiny. It seems that this technological society tries to
the stuff we spend so much of our time trying not to face. wipe out cultures who believe in forces of destiny ...
• AJ: Right-it's the things we don't want to face who believe there are forces moving in our lives beyond
that enslave us. So it's very liberatory to say, "Well, this ourselves. Because such beliefs suggest that one could

86
never be confined to the realm of one's skin, or one's that I grew up in a caring black community-again, we
nuclear family, or one's biological sexuality (or what don't want to get stuck in false essentialisms ... I don't
have you), because one has so much awareness that there want to suggest that something magical took place there
are forces beyond at work upon us in the universe. And I becawe everyone was black -it took place because of
think that part of what man's technological society tries what we did together as black people.
to do, is to deny and crush our knowing of that, so that we
lose ourselves so easily.
I think that ironically, despite all its flaws, religion was
one of those places that expanded our existence. The One of the sadnesses of a culture
very fact that in Christian religion Jesus made mira-
of lies and domination is: people
cles -well, kids growing up in the Christian church may
learn all this other reactionary dogma, but they'll also cannot be alone with thefflJe[vu.
learn something of an appreciation for mystery and mag- They need the TV; the phone,
ic. I was talking to an Indian Hindu woman friend whose the stereo,- Jomething. . .
son is fascinated with Christianity, and I said, "Yeah,
because to be alone is to see all
those stories fascinated me too!" He's into David and
Goliath; Moses parting the Red Sea... Not only are the stuff we spend so much of
those stories fascinating, but they also keep you in touch our time trying not to face.
with the idea that there are forces at work on our lives
beyond our world of "reason" and the intellect. So this
turning away from religion (in black culture: from tradi-
tional black religion) has also meant a turning away from I was in Claremont, California, with a black cultural
a realm of the sacred - a realm of mystery - that has been critic from England. Every day we would take walks,
deeply helpful to us as a people. and be the only people on the street. I felt like we were in
This is not to say that one only finds a sense of the the Twilight Zone, because there were all these grand
sacred in traditional Christian faiths, because I find this houses with lovely porches, but we never saw any peo-
in the realm of spirituality and in the realm of occult ple. And I was reminded of growing up in a small town of
thinking as well. It just seems to be a very tragic loss: black people (Hopkinsville, Kentucky) on the black side
when we assimilate the values of a technocratic culture of town where ifyou went walking you would always be
that does not acknowledge those high forms of mys- able to greet people on their porches and talk with them
tery-nor even tries to make sense of them. and spread messages. Some elderly person might say,
Part of what people like Fritjof Capra (author of The "When you get to so-and-so's house, tell them I need a
Tao 01 PhyJlc.:l) are doing is reminding us that a true cup of sugar!" There was this whole sense of being
technological world has rupect for mystery. I think they're connected through that experience of journeying, of tak-
trying to reclaim the aspect of physics and science that in ing a walk.
a sense was suppressed by the forces-the mentality- But where I live now, when I walk to my friend's
that would only dominate and conquer. house I won't see people out. Even though this is a small
• AJ: "New science" seems to almost be confirming town and everyone has these grand porches, people will
older occult postulations. The newest physics, astron- not be outside-the whole bourgeois notion of "privacy"
omy or "super string" theories sound so much like caba- means they don't want to be seen -and they particularly
listic notions- don't want to have to talk to strangers. Yet at least we
• bh: Absolutely! Historically, when we study the lives have more communication around issues of "race" and
of someone like Madame Curie, we discover that in fact "difference" than in most Midwestern towns, because of
it isn't just "logical" scientific methodology that allows the Underground Railroad [Civil War] having gone
her to make her "grand discovery," but the work of the through here, and the old black community that still
imagination. And with Einstein we can see the role of exists in Oberlin, Ohio. Nevertheless, a lot of people
nzyJtery in the discovery of things - as opposed to this who come here to college from New York City or other
notion that everything can be worked out in a logical cities just think it's horrifYing to be seen daily by the
paradigm. same people.
• AJ: Some of the writers like Evelyn Fox Keller • AJ: Yet ifyou walk through a lot of ethnic Jewish,
(ReflectioIU on Gender and Science) and Donna Har- Hispanic or black neighborhoods in New York, usual-
away discuss how the philosophy of science has been ly the older people still take their chairs and sit out on
informed by a patriarchal colonialist mentality, and the street with their coolers-that's their living
how that's being reformulated by different perspec- room. They talk to people, and it's really quite won-
tives like feminism ... I wanted to talk more about derful and relaxed.
black community- • bh: I struggle a great deal with the phone, because I
• bh: One of the more important things I want to say think the telephone is very dangerollJ to our lives in that it
is: it wasn't just that I grew up in a black community, but gives us such an illusory sense that we are connecting. I

87
always think about those telephone commercials: "Reach they might start saying, "Why should any of us work 10
out and touch someone!" and that becomes such a false hours a day? Why shouldn't we share jobs and work 4
reality -even in my own life I have to remind myself that hours a day and be able to spend more quality time for
talking to someone on the phone is nol the same as having ourselves and our families? Why shouldn't workers who
a conversation where you see them and smell them. don't know how to read be able to go to a job where you
spend 4 hours working and another 4 hours looking at
movies and having critical discussions?" [ don't know of
any industry that has tried to implement those kinds of
I think the telephone is very self-actualization moments in the experience of workers
engaged in industrial work in this society.
dangeroUcl to our lives in that it
• AJ: What do you think are the underlying mecha-
gives us such an illusory sense that nisms of the "Drug War"?
we are connecting. • bh: I think the mechanisms of the Drug War have so
much to do with the mechanisms of capitalism and mon-
ey-making. Also, many people have shown the ways in
which our state and our government are linked to the
I think that the phone has really helped people be- bringing in of masses of drugs to pacifY people-starting
come more privatized in that it gives them an illusion of with drugs like aspirin which make people feel like "you
connection which denies looking at someone. Telephone shouldn't have any pain in your life" and that "pain
commercials can be "great" because they actually let us means you're not living a successful life. " And I think this
see that person on the other end -see how they respond is particularly hard to take. Black people and the black
and give off this warmth that is never really conveyed community have really been hurt by buying into the
just through the phone, so that we're not just having a notion that "If I'm in pain, I must be a m[,)eraMe person,"
diminished experience of the non-person you don't really rather than, "Pain can he a /ruitjid place 0/ tran4"ormation. "
see on the other end. And it's hard to always remember
this-because we're seduced. I love Baudrillard's book,
Seduction, because he talks a lot about the way we're
seduced by tec/JI7%gie.r 4 a/lenatllm. We know that all In this society it's easier for us
technologies are not alienating, so I think it's good to
to build our sense of
have a phrase like "technologies of alienation" so that we
can distinguish between those ways of transmitting knowl-
/I
communIty
."
around sameness,
edge, information, etc, and other ways of knowing that so we can't imagine a gay rights
are more fully meaningful to us. movement where 80% of the
• AJ: Don't you think that in our addictive culture,
people might be non-gay!
these seductions set up addictions which can never be
satisfied? The telephone gives this impossible promise
of connection; its "900" numbers promise a simulation
of friendship and community (like a long-distance
nightclub) which can never be fulfilled. An incredible I think that early on, in the black communities I grew
sense of longing and desire is evoked- up in, there was a sense of redemptive suffering. And it's
• bh: Absolutely. When I spoke at a confet"ence on the really problematic for us to lose that sense. James Bald-
"War on Drugs," I tried to talk about how a culture of win wrote in The Fire Ne;r:1 Time that "If you can't suffer,
dominattlll1 is necessarily a culture of addictioll, because you can never really grow up-because there's no real
you in fact take away from people their sense of a.9ency. change you go through." Back to M. Scott Peck who tells
And what restores to people that sense of power and us that" All change is a moment of loss." And usually at a
capacity-well, working in an auto factory in America moment of loss we feel some degree of sorrow, grief-
right now gives few workers a sense of empowerment. pain, even. And if people don't have the apparatus by
So how do you give them an illusory sense of empower- which they can bear that pain, there can only be this
ment? We could go to any major plant in America and attempt to avoid it-and that's where the place of so
look at what people do. And a lot of what people do when much addiction and substance abuse is in our life. It's in
they get off work is: drink. Many of the forms of "com- the place of "let me not feel it" or "let me take this drug so
munity" (set up to counteract the forces of alienation on that [ can go through it without having to really feel what
the job) are tied to addICtIon-because the fact is: it's I might have had to feel here." Or, "I can feel it ... but
simply not gratifYing to work fuckin' hard 10 hours a day I'll have no memmy of it."
for low wages and not really be able to get the things you • AJ: And ultimately we go back to the whole issue
need materially in life. of anger: to "not feel it so I won't erupt with the kind
In fact: if people weren't seduced by certain forms of of anger that pain has caused."
addiction, they might rebel! They might be depressed, • bh: I think that's it, precisely. What I see as the

88
 promise is: those of us who are willing to break down or the language of people who are imprisoned - especially
.qo through the walls of denial ... to build a bridge with regard to that sense of what one has to recover after
between illusion and reality so that we can come back to a period of confinement...
our selves and live more fully in the world ... • AJ: I like your idea that theory can be liberating,
but that so often it's encased in a language dO elitist as
Part II to be inaccessible. In the lecture I saw, the ideas you
presented seemed so understandable-plus, it seemed
• AJ: What do you write? you brought your heart and soul to the "lecture" for-
• bh: I started out writing plays and poetry, but then mat-
felt I'd received this "message from the spirits": that I • bh: That's where I think performance is useful. In
really needed to do feminist work which would challenge traditional black culture: if you get up in front of an
the universalized category of "Woman." Years ago certain audience, you should be performing, you should be capa-
ideas were prevalent in the feminist movement, such as, ble of moving people, something should take place-
"Women would be liberated if they worked." And I was there should be some total e.Tperience. If you got up in
thinking, "Gee, every black woman I've ever known haJ front of an audience and were just passively reading
worked (outside the home), but this hasn't necessarily something-welL what's the point?
meant Liberation. " Obviously, this started me posing ques- • AJ: Right-why not listen to a tape recording?
tions: "What women are we talking about when we talk • bh: There has to be this total engagement-an en-
about 'women'?" gagement that also suggests dialogue and reciprocity
So I began doing feminist theory challenging the pre- between the performer and the audience that is hopefully
vailing construction of womanhood in the feminist move- responding. I think about theory; I use words like "de-
ment. I wrote Ain't I a Woman: BLack Women and Feminifm, construction." Once someone asked me, "Don't you think
which initially met with tremendous resistance and hos- that these words are alienating and cold?" and I said,
tility because it was going against the whole feminist idea "You know, I expect to see these words in rap in the next
that "Women share a common plight." I was saying that few years!"
in fact, women don't share a common plight solely be-
cause we're women -that our experiences are very, very
different. Of course, now that's become such an accepted
notion, but 12 years ago people were really pissed. The less we engage in denial, the
I remember people being enraged because the book more we are able to recover our
challenged the whole construction of white woman as de[veJ. Hope lies in the possibility of
victim, or white woman as the symbol of the most op-
a resistance that's based on being
pressed .. or woman as the symbol of the most oppressed.
Because I was saying, "Wait a minute. What about cLa,JJ able to face our reality aJ it u.
differences between women? What about racial differ-
ences that in fact make some women more powerful than
others?" So that's how I started out. I continued to do my
plays and my poetry, but my feminist theory and writings In my new book, Yearning: Race, Gender and CuLturaL
became better known. PoLitU:J, I talk about going home to the South and telling
• AJ: And you're also a professor? my family that I'm a MinimaLift ... explaining to them
• bh: Yeah, although I'm on a leave of absence. It's what the significance of Minimalism is to me (in terms of
funny-lately I've been thinking a lot, because I'm hav- space, objects, needs and what have you). Because mean-
ing this life crisis right now and I'm just trying to pause ings can be shared - people can take different language
for a moment - I call this a "pause-itive life crisis" [laughs] and jargon aCrOdJ class and across experiences - but there
... I'm taking this time to focus more on creative work has to be an intermediary proceJJ whereby you take the
and on questions of performance. I have a desire to write time to give them a sense of what the meaning of a term
little mini-plays and performances-dramas that can be is. You've got to be able to express that complicated
acted out in people's living rooms. meaning in language that is plainer or translatable. This
I'm really into the de-in.JlitutwnaLization of/earning and doesn't mean that people can't grasp more complex jar-
of experience. The more I've been in the Academy, the gon and utilize it- I think that's what books like Mar:Tfor
more I think about Foucault's DifcipLine and Pllnifh: The Beginnerd had in mind: if you give people a basic outline
Birth of the Prifon and the whole idea of how institutions or sense, then you are giving them a tool with which they
work. People have this fantasy (as I did when I was can go back to the primary text (which is more "diffi-
young) of colleges being liberatory institutions, when in cult") and feel more at home with that.
fact they're so much like every other institution in our • AJ: Do you feel that you as a black woman are
culture in terms of repre,'Jwn and containment-so that changing things in the Academy?
now I feel like I'm trying to break out. And I've noticed • bh: Black women change the process only to the
the similarity between the language I've been using, and degree that we are in revolt against the prevailing pro-

89
cess. However, the vast majority of black women in people in America can be in solidarity with young black
Academe are l10t in revolt - they seem to be as conserva- youth if they stop seeing them as "young black youth" and
tive as the other conservatizing forces there! Why? Be- look at them as Americans, and declare," 0 American
cause marginalized groups in institutions feel so should have to live this way." So it's a whole notion of: "If
vulnerable. l've been rereading Simon Watney's Policin,q you can find yourself in the Other in such a way as to wipe
De,lire, and thinking a lot about how I often feel more out the Otherness, then you can be in harmony." But a
policed by other black women who say to me: "How can "grander" idea is: "Why do we have to wipe out the
you be out there on the edge? How can you do certain Otherness in order to experience a notion of On(/l&ld?" I'm
things-like be wild, be inappropriate? You're making it sort of a freak on the left in that I'm really dedicated to a
harder for the rest of us (who are trying to show that we spiritual practice in my everyday life, yet I'm also interest-
can be 'up to snuff') to be 'in' with the mainstream." ed in transgressive expressions of desire-
• AJ: So it's like an assault from both sides. You • AJ: Like what?
were talking about the "internalization of the oppres- • bh: "Like what?" she says! Well, for example, I just
sor" in the minds of the colonized- had this fling with a 22-year-old black male. A lot of
• bh: Simon Watney was talking about marginalized people felt, "This is politically incorrect. This person isn't
communities who will protest certain forms of domina- political; he's even got a white girlfriend. How can you be
tion (like a notion of "exclusion/inclusion" whereby they non-monogamous in the Age of AIDS?" Likewise, ifyou
are excluded) but then invent their 011'11 little group where- say you have a spiritual practice, people immediately
in the same practices determine who is allowed into their think you're plugged into a total goodlbad way of read-
"community." We see that happening now with the re- ing reality-
cent return to a black cultural nationalism where a new, • VALE: Or that you can't have a wild sex life ...
well-educated, cool, chic, avant-garde group of black You're 38 and he's 22, so you're breaking an "age"
people (who perhaps five years ago had lots of white taboo?
friends or mixed friends) now say, "I really want to • bh: Actually, less the taboo of age than the taboo of
associate ol1ly with black people" or, "... black people being involved with somebody who isn't involved with
and people of color." my work. who doesn't talk, and who's not politically
I'm very much into the work of the Vietnamese Bud- correct-
dhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh; I consider him to be one
of my primary teachers and have been reading him for
years. He talks a lot about the idea of resistance to the
construction of false frontiers - the idea that you make or
I'm really into the de-
construct someone as an enemy who you have to oppose,
but who in fact may have more in common with you than institutionalization of learning and
you realize. However, in this society it's easier for us to experience. People have this
build our sense of "community" around sameness, so we fantasy (as I did when I was young)
can't imagine a gay rights movement where 80% of the
of colleges being liheratory
people might be non-gay!
I was working from Martin Luther King's idea of the institutions, when in fact they're
"beloved community" and asking, "Under what terms do just like many other institutions in
we establish 'community'? How do we conceptualize a our culture in terms of repre.Mwn
'beloved community'?" King's idea was of a group of
and containment.
people who have overcome their racism, whereas I think
more of communities of people who are not just interest-
ed in racism, but in the whole question of domil1atwl1.
I think it's more important to ask, "What does it mean
to inhabit a space without a mlture of dominatwl1 defining • AJ: Almost as if you could be the exploiter?
how you live your life?" In Thich Nhat Hanh's book The • bh: No! -rather, "You're letting us down-how could
Raft j,1 Not the Shore (1975) he says that "Resistance at you be involved with a sexist terrorist?!" Because from
heart must mean more than resistance against war. It ;iunp I wasn't trying to pretend that this guy was a won-
must mean resistance against all things that are like war." derful person - I said he was a "terrorist" - referring to
And then he talks about living in modern society ... people who are into "gaslighting," that great old term we
how the way we live threatens our integrity of being, and should never have abandoned: men who seduce a wom-
how people who feel threatened then construct false an, and just when you think you're in heaven, they
frontiers: "I can only care about you if you're like me. I suddenly abandon you. The syndrome of: seduce and
can only show compassion toward you if something in abandon; seduce and betray. This theme really was pop-
your experience relates to something I've experienced." ular in Hitchcock movies.
We see an expression of this in Richard Rorty's book, I like that term "gaslighting"; I want to recover it. It
COl1tli~qeI1CY, IrtJl1y, d Solidarity, where he argues that white makes me think of emotional minefields, of someone you

90
might actually have this ecstatic experience with, some- cinema. For example, we think a Spike Lee film is "good"
one who inspires in you feelings of belonging and home- because it has different images from what we've seen
coming-you're walking along and suddenly you get before. But we need more than merely "positive" imag-
blown up! Some part of you falls away, and you realize es-we need chaffenging images. When people say to me,
that all along this has been part of the other person's "Well, don't you think that at least Spike Lee's telling it
agenda: to give you a sense of belonging and closeness- like it is?" I say, "You know, the function of art is to do
then disrupt it in some powerful way. Which is what I more than tell it like it is -it's to imagine what is pOJJw!e."
think sexual terrorism does ...
In a more general sense: in this country I always relate
terrorism to the idea of Jugar-coated/a.Jci.Jm: where people
really think they are free, but all of a sudden discover Martin Luther King said that
that ifyou cross certain boundaries (for example, decide the black revolution is not just
you don't want to go fight in that Gulf War), suddenly
you find you can be blown up-some part of you can be
for black people, but also to
cut off, shot down, taken away. . . expose systemic flaws in
I think about the soldiers that people were spitting society: racum7 mi/itarum7 and
on -the ones who don't want to happily get on the planes materia/um.
and go kill some Iraqis ... just how quickly their whole
experience of "America" was altered in the space of, say,
even a day. If you juxtapose the notion of "Choice"/
"Freedom of Will" (that mythic projection) against the
reality of what it means to say, "Well, I really would like • v: - to tell what cou[J be.
to exercise my freedom in this democracy and say that I • bh: Yes. And I think that for all people of color in this
don't really support this war, and I don't want to go to culture (because our minds have been so colonized) it's
it!" then WHAM! You find out there really was no such very hard for us to move out of that location of reacting.
freedom, that you really had signed up to be an agent of Even if I say, ''I'm going to create a drama where Asian
White Supremacy and White Western Imperialism glo- women's sexuality is portrayed differently than the racist
bally-and that you get punished quickly if you choose norm," I'm still working within that sense of, "We only
against that! respond to the existing representation." Whereas actual-
• AJ: This really was a White Supremacist war, yet ly, we need some wholesale re-envisioning that's outside
the way it was presented on TV sidestepped that real- the realm of the merely reactionary!
ity. I'm fascinated by the appearance of transgression in
• bh: It's funny, because I was just talking with a friend an art form that in fact is no transgression at all. A lot of
about DanceJ With WolveJ. We were disturbed because so films appear to be creating a change, but the narrative is
many "progressive" people had been seeing this film, always "sewn up" by an ending which returns us to the
crying, and saying what a wonderful film it is. And while status quo-so there's been no change at all. The under-
it is one of the best Hollywood representations of Native lying message ends up being completely conservative.
Americans, the fact remains that the overall package is • AJ: Can you think of any examples in mass media
completely pro-war, completely conservative. that work in a positive way?
I was interested in this because I've written a new • bh: We haven't seen enough. Black heterosexuality
book, Black Lo00: Race and RepreJentation, with an essay in cinema and television is always: basic, funky and
that examines the whole history of Africans coming to sexist, like in Mo' Better BLueJ by Spike Lee where noth-
the so-called "New World," and the kind of bonds that ing different takes place-even though we know that
developed between Africans and different nations. All of people's real lives can have far more complex construc-
a sudden we began to think of Native American Indians tions. For example, nobody says, "Let's have different
as light-skinned people with straight hair, whose cultures arrangements-I don't think I want to be monogamous.
have nothing to do with African-American (or any Afri- Let's reorganize this." A location where one can imagine
can) culture ... when in fact, in the 1800s and early possible different constructions is performance art: we
1900s, there was still lots of communication -a lot of think of Whoopi Goldberg's early performances when
black people joined Native American nations legally. she took on many different identities, such as the "bag
You could declare yourself a citizen of a particular na- lady" she gave voice to.
tion. There was a point in my life when I needed a thera-
• AJ: Do you have any thoughts regarding the pre- pist. I was involved in this horrible, bittersweet life with
sentation of people of color in mass media? a black male artist/intellectual. There was no one 1 could
• bh: I think one of the dilemmas in film or perfor- go to and say, "This is what's happening to me, and I have
mance for people of color is: it's not enough for us just to no apparatus for understanding it." So I invented this
create cultural products in reaction to prevailing arche- figure: this therapist, this healer, and I could get up and
types-we must try to create the aDJenceJ in Hollywood do an improvisational performance on this persona. I

91
realized you could invent something you need. When we thinkglolJally, we're able not only to see how
I was just reading a quotation from Monique Wittig's much we have (compared to others), but also to think
Le,' Guirdlere,l: "There was a time when you were not a about what goes into the production of what we have. I
slave," which evokes the idea of remendJerin,q who YOllwere. tell my students, "In the first two weeks, in order to not
I was thinking about being in that emotionally abusive, think with a First World context -if you eat a steak, you
bittersweet relationship, and was trying to remember have to take out your pen and paper and write down
when [ was not in a matrix like that. But coming from a what goes into producing that steak." Thus you have a
family where I had been routinely tortured and emotion- sense of being part of a world community, and not just
ally persecuted, it was hard for me to even imagine a part of a First World context that in fact would have you
space where r wasn't involved with people who seduce deny your positionality as an individual in a world COJJ1JJ1U-
and betray-who make you feel loved one minute, and nity. It's not enough to just think of yourself in terms of
then pull the rug out from under you the next -so you're the United States.
always spinning, uncertain how to respond. The point is: Even friends on the "Left" would rather not discuss
performance art, in the ritual of inventing a character the Gulf War in terms of cballen,qing materia!i..'JJ1i using so
who could not only speak through me but also for me, much of the world's resources-exploiting so much of
was an important location 0/ recwery for me. the world's resources. Because then we might begin dis-
cussing what it would mean to change our way of life
... to realize that being against war also means chang-
ing our way of life. In his Nobel Prize speech the Dalai
It's like having a sickness that Lama said: "How can we expect people who are hungry
to be concerned about the absence of war?" He also said
gets more fierce as it passes on
that peace has to mean more than just the absence of
to wellne~M. We donIt have to war-it has to be about reconstructing society so that
view that period as an invitation people can learn how to be fully self-actualized human
to despair, but as a sign of beings - fully alive .
• AJ: Possessions become substitutes, covering up
potential tran.1formatwn in the
for a loss of meaning and connection (you are what
very depths of whatever pain we
are experiencIng...
. . you own). The things I love most don't cost that much-
yet have special meaning for me, such as gifts that link
me to certain people or objects that remind me of a
certain time period. Whereas Western Industrial soci-
ety promotes items whose original function has been
forgotten: a car isn't just a box on wheels that gets you
• AJ: As far as the position of women or people of around-it's this expensive commodity you buy to
color goes, it seems that the deception levels are get- "communicate" status.
ting far worse. The illusions are so much tighter, and • bh: I think our materialism is often totally discon-
the grip of control- nected from the idea that aesthetics are crucial to our
• bh: There's an incredible quote by Martin Luther ability to live humanely in the world. To be able to
King in his last essay, "A Testament of Hope." He says recognize and know beauty, to be able to be lifted up by
that the black revolution is not just a revolution for black it, to be able to chooJe the objects in your surroundings
people, but in fact is exposing certain systemic flaws in .. , I've always been interested in Buddhist room ar-
society: rac/'HJ2, militari.Jm, and materiali.ll11. And while there rangement: how do we place something in our house so
are a lot of progressive people on the Left who oppose that we can be made more fully human by glancing at it,
militarism, many do not oppose material/;,m. or by interacting with it? And there's,lo little of that in our
One thing we can learn from Thich Nhat Hanh, who culture.
lived through the Vietnam War, is how much this culture For example, for some time I'd wanted this expensive
is so profoundly materialistic ... people think they coffee-table book on Amish quilts. And I was really sad
need JO much. When I teach a course on Third World when I got it and discovered it was just about the EJprit
Literature, I spend the first few weeks trying to get collection! On the one hand, we're made to feel "grate-
people to unlearn thinking with a First World mindset, ful" that these wealthy people who are buying these
which means: when you watch a show like "Dynasty" quilts are making them "available" to the public. But no
and see all this material opulence, you measure your own one talks about how yuppie consumers have turned quilts
life by that. You might say, "Oh God, I don't have any- into something that totally abandon the homes of the
thing- I only have an old car and an old stereo, but just people who had them as historical or family legacies-all
loole at this opulence!" Whereas if we think about the rest in the interest of money. There's nothing that tells us,
of the world ... I remember myself as a naive teenager "Well, this is how we acquired this quilt." There's noth-
going to Germany and finding out that everyone JiJn't ing about the process of acquisition in the context of
have a stereo! capitalism -nothing about that whole prOCed,l of collecting

92
(and what it implies)- ity for exploitation, what intervenes is recognition of the
• AJ: -which takes it out of the community. In Other. Recognition allows a certain kind of negotiation
certain American Indian tribes, spirituality and a pro- that seems to disrupt the possibility of domination. If a
found community sense would be deeply integrated person makes a unilateral decision that does not account
into the making of objects whose function was also for me, then I feel exploited by that decision because my
necessary for the survival of the tribe ... I grew up in needs haven't been considered. But if that person is
New England where old ladies used to have sewing willing to pause, then at that moment of pause there is an
bees which gathered women together and provided a opportunity for mutllal recognitwn (what I call the "sub-
valuable sense of community. And then suddenly for ject-to-subject" encounter, as opposed to "subject-to-ob-
this community craft to get shunted off into a collector ject"). This doesn't necessarily mean the person will
status -you've just alienated and cofl<lumed that spiri- change what they intended to do, but it means that (at
tual, cultural reservoir ... least temporarily) I am not rendered an Object by their
• bh: I know that when I have the money to buy a carrying forth with their objective.
thing, I struggle a lot with the question the meaning of To have a non-dominating context, one has to have a
that thing in my life. Do I want to possess somethingjllJt lived practice of interaction. And this practice has to be
because I have the money to buy it? What would be the conJcwlI<!, rather than some sentimental notion that "you
way that I or EJprit (or any group of people) could own a and I were born into the world with the 'will to do good
collection of something, and not be participating in this towards one another.''' In reality, this non-exploitative
process of cultural alienation? EJprit seems to think that way to be with one another has to be practiced; resistance
hanging the quilts in their offices is a way of Jharing. to the possibility of domination has to be learned.
I was trying to analyze why I felt violated when I got This also means that one has to cultivate the capacity
this book titled The Ami.Jh Quilt-thinking I'm going to to lliait. I think about a Culture of Domination as being
learn something about Amish quilts, only to realize that very tied to notions of efficiency-everything running
what I'm really learning about is this EJprit collection of smoothly. I mean, it's so much easier if you tell me, ''I'm
Amish quilts. This brings in the question of repackaging, leaving!" rather than "I desire to leave and not come
as well as the question of this fantasization of Amish life back-how does that desire impact on you?" and I reply,
that's taking place in the United States. I think it's not "Is there a space within which I can have a response?"
untied to White Supremacy, because if we think about All this takes more time than the kind of fascism that
the Shakers or Mennonites or other groups who have says, "This is what I'm doing - fuck you!"
welcomed people who are non-white into their midst, we I often think: What does "resistance" mean (our resis-
find that one of the groups which has stayed more solidly tance against war, sexism, homophobia, etc) if we're not
white has been the Amish. And when white people are fully committed to changing our way of life? Because so
looking at them with a kind of nostalgia and evoking this much of how we are is informed by a Culture of Domina-
ideal of "the Amish way of life" -whether we see them tion. So how do we become liberated within the Culture
being grossly exploited (as in the movie WitneJJ) or in the of Domination if our lived practice, every moment of the
many books that have been published recently ... day, is not saying "No!" to it in some way or another?
And that means we have to: pallJe, reflect, recollJiJer, create
a whole mOl'ement ... and that is not what the machinery
of capitalism in daily life is about. It's about "Let's do it all
swiftly-quickly!"
This culture is so profoundly I hope that what's happening now for many people is:
materialistic ... people think a lot of the denial is being cut away, because denial is
always about inJanity. So we know that the less we en-
they need riO much.
gage in denial, the more we are able to recover our
JellleJ. Hope lies in the possibility of a resistance that's
based on being able to face our reality {41 it i.J.
• AJ: And yet I see the denial getting more and
There's a new book by a white woman who went to more fierce, building up-
live among the Amish; it describes the peace and serenity • bh: There's one way you can look at this: it's like
she found. I think we aff have something to learn from having a sickness in your body that gets more and more
the Amish way of life, their habits of being and thought fierce as it is passing on to llieffneJJ. We don't have to view
... but it's interesting that this particular group which that period of intense sickness as an invitation to despair,
is most white is the one that gets fetishized. but as a sign of potential tran.Jjormatwn in the very depths
• V: How can exploitation in general be prevented? of whatever pain it is we are experiencing...•••
• bh: I always think that whenever there's the possibil-

93
 Challenging Patriarchy Meand Challenging Men to Change
by bell hookd

Almost forty, when I chart the journey that moved hurting women but about ending sexism and sexist op-
me -a southern black girl who had been raised to be a pression and being able to confront head-on the "enemy,"
"lady" at all costs, to be a victim -into that space where I no matter what form the enemy might take -man, wom-
could embrace revolutionary feminism as a liberatory an, child, state, church, school, friend, lover, and most
politic, I always return home. I return to that hot summer frightening, "the enemy within."
night when I first heard my father's angry voice threaten- Within me there will always be ayoung girl who fears
ing to kill mama, to that moment when I saw the blood men and male power indiscriminately, a hurt and fright-
trickling down her mouth where he had struck her, to the ened girl who has no ability to be selective, to choose
strength of his words as he repeatedly yelled, 'Til kill among men as though she had the power to intuit, "These
you. I'll kill you." I do not forget the sense of helplessness men are the enemy, and these comrades." That young girl
that I felt standing there, making my presence bear wit- holds the memory of pain and rage so intense it can burn
ness (my siblings were all willing to retreat from the flesh, like the heat of that summer night, when she should
scene) and I do not forget the fear. Yet what stays with have stood bearing witness, watching her father domi-
me most is the memory of the intense violence that surged nate, humiliate, and brutalize her mother, watching a
in me. I wanted to kill this man, my father whom violence man dominate and hurt a woman. That young girl who
had turned into a stranger. If someone had to die, I did still lives inside me was "traumatized" by all that she
not want to see mama sacrificed to this male rage. There witnessed. She spent years of her life reliving that night.
was no question in my mind that if there had to be a In her dreams she heard again and again the voice of her
choice, I would choose her over him. Intimately, I shared father saying, "I'll kill you. I'll kill you." She grew up to
with him at that moment the overwhelming killing rage be a women who would lie next to a man and wake up
that can lead to the taking of another life, that makes screaming with a fear so naked and raw that the dream
blood sacrifice possible. The memory of my rage has became reality. Ultimately, it changed. It was no longer
stayed with me, a constant reminder of the violence I am the mother who was being attacked. It was her life the
capable of, a violence just as strong, just as intense as that man was taking, her death she witnessed. The nightmare
of any man. of patriarchy, the ritualistic drama of male domination
over woman, reenacted in her sleep, served as a constant
reminder of the horror that sexism and sexist oppression
make possible.
What stays with me most is the My mother and father reconciled after that night,
memory of the intense violence that living an uneasy peace. It was within me that the terror-
surged in me. I wanted to kill this izing fear lingered. Working for self-recovery, corning to
grips with this past, I have had to face and claim both the
man, my father whom violence had terror and the rage of that night, to see them as intimately
turned into a stranger. linked -that moment of separation when I felt I had to
choose the mother over the father, the female over the
male, and that moment of connection when the rage I
shared with the father linked me to him, denying our
My rebellion against patriarchy, like that of many difference, making us one. That terrorized young girl
Sister and Brother comrades, began in the home of my who lives inside me no longer dominates my life. I no
childhood. I can still remember the stunned look on longer watch everything through the lens of her fear,
mama's face when I turned to her one day walking up the looking at the world through her terror. I do not see men
stairs to my bedroom and looking down yelled: "I will through her eyes, even though I understand the forces
never marry, I will never be any man's prisoner." that shape and determine the nature of her gaze.
Perhaps I would have thought believing in revolution- Intimately k'nowing both the terror and the rage, the
ary feminism was all about a struggle against men, if T fear of abusive male domination and the will to meet it in
had not spent my childhood struggling with mama. with kind, has been the lived experience that has not allowed
her violence against her children, with her sense of wom- me to naively imagine that men hold all the power to act
an's place. with her sexism that was at times deeper and in ways that dominate and hurt. That recognition has
more entrenched than dad's. With insight honed byex- been redemptive for me. It has enabled me to be ever
perience, I left home knowing that the "real" feminist mindful of the need to construct feminist theory and
deal was not just about the struggle to stop men from practice so that it addresses females and males, so that it

94
will be a revolutionary political movement that is funda- or undermine it.
mentally committed to ending sexism and sexist oppres- Radical feminist demands that women choose the rep-
sion in all its forms. resentation of innocence over recognition of experience
In most of my work I have been critical of a lifestyle and agency posits a world view that ultimately makes
based on a radical feminism that sees feminist movement separation from men a necessary component of female
as primarily being for and about women. Thinking about liberation. By inverting the logic of misogyny and phallo-
feminism in this way, women cling to notions of hierar- centrism that has socialized males for centuries to believe
chy, privileging the experience of women as being more their safety can be maintained only by staying away from
important and more worthy of attention than the experi- or dominating females, we in no way advance our under-
ence of men. Such logic is not essentially a radical cri- standing of gender. It is fundamentally rooted in a denial
tique of domination but more a rebellion against a politic of reality. Most women cannot choose lives where they
of domination that makes women its victims. Embedded have little or no contact with men. Vast numbers of
in its standpoint is the assumption that if men were the heterosexual women continue to seek and desire such
sole victims of patriarchy and male domination, there contact. It belittles women for any radical feminist to
would be no need for women to challenge and resist this assume that all these women are mere dupes, victims of
abuse of power. Concurrently, by evoking a gendered their internalized sexism. Since so many women are in
rhetoric that holds to notions of good and bad, innocent daily contact with men whether that contact is chosen or
and guilty, one that places women always on the winning not, it is dangerous for privileged groups of women-
side, radical feminists avoid the call to accountability and who need not have contact with men because of class,
responsibility that would signal a fundamental break race, or sexual preferences that position them where they
with the logic of Western metaphysical dualism that un- have options-to promote the notion that the "real" fem-
dergirds the politics of domination. inist is a woman who has no need or desire to be in
Remembering my own past, and linking it to the many contact with men.
autobiographical narrations of women who have been
the objects of male violence that has known no limits or
boundaries, I understand fully and know intimately the
impulse, usually rooted in essentialist rage, that can lead Refusal to think in either/or terms
feminist thinkers to see all men as the "enemy" and all
women solely as victims, or potential victims. Yet when
empowers feminist activists to
women accept such a simplistic account of female experi- search for and invent strategies
ence, what are we called to suppress and deny in our- that address the complexity of
selves? Raising this issue in The OppOJitionaL Imagination, feminist movement.
Joan Cocks urges a critique of an instrumentalist ap-
proach that denies woman's capacity to be self-determin-
ing: "Radical feminism's romanticization of women as
essentially innocent or good may be more benign than
the dominant culture's degradation of women, and it may Many radical feminists assume that any feminist wom-
be more well-meaning than the culture's idealization of an concerned about male domination who desires a fem-
women in a backhanded way that suggests they are inist agenda that includes a focus on men (note the
really the weaker and less dramatic sex. Still, it is abso- emphasis on include rather than centraLiu) is somehow
lutely infantilizing and embalming. It implies that wom- failing to fulfill her true feminist mission, and worse,
en aJ;e not complex enough in desire, sophisticated enough betraying the cause. This brand of "guilt tripping" has
in imagination,and dynamic enough in will to act in pushed many women away from feminist politics be-
vicious as well as virtudus ways, out of passions, predi- cause it has demanded that they devalue or deny their
lections, and motive forces that are not men's but their ties with men. Years ago in a women's studies class filled
own." with women of all ages and races, many of whom were
Accepting a version of female experience that sees us lesbians, sex radicals, or consciously choosing celibacy,
solely as victims, as the dupes of men, enables us to we hotly debated whether one could be woman-identi-
ignore both the violence we do to other women and fied and remain involved with men. Rather then deny
children and to less powerful men. Most importantly, it female agency, we chose collectively to acknowledge that
acts to obscure the extent to which females can assert it was indeed possible, and that the degree to which
autonomous agency and therefore have the power to women understood that contact with men need not cor-
c~oose whether to support sexism, patriarchy, and male respond with solidarity or allegiance to patriarchy would
domination. The danger of this simplistic account of stand as testimony to the power of trans formative femi-
female experience should be obvious. By denying female nist thinking. We made this choice with full awareness
agency it implicitly disallows our capacity to rebel, to that the vast majority of women would need to unlearn
resist, to act in a revolutionary way. A despairing vision, internalized sexist thinking before this could be a con-
it acts to reinforce patriarchal power; it does not subvert crete possibility in daily life. We also acknowledged that

95
separatist space often facilitates coming to feminist criti- while we journey west to help form a Lesbian/Feminist
cal consciousness, even though it is not a precondition of vision of the future world in which we can all survive and
sustained feminist commitment. flourish. I hope we can continue this dialogue in the near
Given the politics of patriarchy, feminist agendas that future, as I feel it is important to our vision and our
include a focus on men must be formed with full under- survival."
standing that most people have been socialized to assume Stating clearly in her essay that both as a black person
that the experiences and concerns of women are not as and as a women she has, at times, the need for noninclu-
important as those of men. This reality makes it neces- sive space (a need many of us share), Lorde does not
sary for us to vigilantly centralize women's experience in privilege this longing over the desire for collective space
ways that critically intervene and disrupt conventional where difference does not prelude the possibility of soli-
ways of thinking about gender. \Vhen considering ques- darity. Refusal to think in either/or terms empowers
tions about the place of men in feminist movement, or to feminist activists to search for and invent strategies that
what extent feminist agendas should include a focus on address the complexity of feminist movement. There has
males, feminist activists must creatively develop strate- not been enough fruitful dialogue between women who
gies that do not reinscribe a focus on women as second- would exclude focus on men from all feminist agendas
ary. Those radical feminist agendas that dismiss a focus and those of us who believe such focus is necessary if we
on men avoid addressing these issues. While woman- are to end sexism and sexist oppression.
only space makes it easier to generate a sense of solidari- Black women/women of color feminist activists have
ty among women, if in such settings all focus on men is brought to feminist theory and practice some of the most
deemed reactionary and anti-feminist, then they become insightful ways to think about questions of inclusion and
sites where feminist revolution that acts to eradicate exclusion. By sharing with white women the meaningful
sexism and sexist oppression, that empowers women to solidarity we have forged with men of color in struggles
challenge and confront patriarchy and men, that offers a to end racism and class oppression, we have demonstrat-
trans formative vision, is undermined. ed by our lived experience that it is possible to maintain a
woman-identified commitment to feminism even as we
work with, alongside, and for the liberation of our broth-
ers. Recognizing that race and class domination chal-
lenges any monolithic construction of a universal category
My father was dying. That the only we can call "woman," we have maintained ties with white
time I would feel free to touch him women, growing and learning in struggle, even as we are
without feeling threatened by his ever vigilant in contesting and challenging racism. Con-
power over me was when he lay currently, knowing the ways black men/men of color
perpetuate and maintain male domination, we maintain
dead-it's unbearable to me. ties even as we continually resist and challenge sexism.
We advocate coalition because domination affects us all
and we know that it can only be effectively addressed by
collective struggle.
Often white women active in feminist movement, par-
In keeping with conventional patriarchal notions of ticularly individuals with class privilege, feel no such
allegiance, it is often sexual preference that shapes and bonds with white men. Indeed, white female struggle to
informs individual feminist response to issues concern- break complicity with white male abusive power may
ing men. The assumption that choosing lesbianism auto- fuel an anti-male standpoint. Separating from men, and
matically means that one is no longer male-identified most specifically from white men, may be the easiest way
remains popular within feminist circles. And not surpris- for these women to project the image that their political
ingly, it is often individual separatist lesbians who most allegiances have been radicalized, are different, even if
outspokenly oppose making space for men on feminist that is not truly the case. Often these women are most
agendas. Audre Lorde addresses this issue in her essay fierce in their condemnation of any group of women who
"Man Child" and grapples with what it would signifY if want to make a feminist agenda that includes a focus on
she attended a lesbian/feminist conference that would men. They are the women who can be heard stating that
not allow boys over ten to participate. With her partner, they "refuse to give their energies to men."
she wrote the conference this insightful message: "Ten Revolutionary feminist activism must avoid at all costs
years as an interracial lesbian couple has taught us both investing in simplistic forms of gender separatism that
the dangers of an oversimplified approach to the nature offer women the luxury of not having to engage in ongo-
and solutions of any oppression, as well as the dangers ing confrontation and struggle with men. Most women
inherent in an incomplete vision. Our thirteen-year-old do not have the option to choose. Black women, whether
son represents as much hope for our future world as does we are revolutionary feminists or simply beginning the
our fifteen-year-old daughter, and we are not willing to process of examining sexism and its impact on our lives,
abandon him to the killing streets of New York City collectively share the awareness that there must be femi-

96
nist education for critical consciousness for black men if about women's responsibility for radicalizing men. Speak-
sexism and sexist oppression is to cease in black commu- ing of her father's death, Deming confesses: "It was on a
nities. weekend in the country and he'd been working outside
Recently, I was invited to speak at a benefit for the with a pick and shovel, making a new garden plot. He'd
opening of a day-care center by an Afrocentric group had a heart attack and fallen there in the loose dirt. We'd
with black male leaders. An atypical event, the audience called a rescue squad, and they were trying to bring him
was extraordinarily racially and ethnically diverse, many back to life, but couldn't. I was half-lying on the ground
more black men were present than is normally the case, next to him, with my arms around his body. I realized
and there was a definite presence of individuals with that this was the first time in my life that I had felt able to
diverse sexual preferences. Indeed, the audience appeared really touch my father's body. I was holding hard to it-
to be the lived embodiment of the feminist vision of a with my love-and with my grief. And my grief was
diverse movement. partly that my father, whom I loved, was dying. But it
was also that I knew already that his death would allow
me to feel freer. I was mourning that this had to be so. It's
a grief that is hard for me to speak of. That the only time
It is possible to maintain a I would feel free to touch him without feeling threatened
woman-identified commitment to by his power over me was when he lay dead-it's un-
bearable to me. And I think there can hardly be a woman
feminism even as we work with, who hasn't felt a comparable grief. So it's an oversimplifi-
alongside, and for the liberation cation to speak the truth that we sometimes wish men
of our brothers. dead-unless we also speak the truth which is perhaps
even harder to face (as we try to find our own powers, to
-% <: --~ be our own women): the truth that this wish is unbear-
able to us. It rends us."
As I began speaking there were problems with the That wish to see men dead, felt by me so long ago, on
sound system. Men of color and white men tried to that hot summer night, surfaces every time I hear about
remedy the problem. The audience laughed when the any horrific act of male violence against women, of male
problems did not disappear. Yet when black women rose domination. When this visceral response passes, my zeal
to help, segments of the audience cheered. During the to make my feminist life and work critically intervene in
question period, the first speaker was a South African the lives of men in such a way that it serves as a catalyst
black man, who said he was troubled by seeing white affirming and promoting male feminist transformation is
people in the audience laugh at men of color while ex- renewed. Unlike some women, I do not feel the luxury of
pressing through cheers their solidarity with black wom- choice. Not only does patriarchal power continue to
en. He wanted to know whether this display could not be affirm the use of violence as a means to subordinate and
seen as affirming the notion that feminism is not only subjugate women, the resurgence of antifeminist back-
anti-male but is a movement that seeks to divide women lash also exposes the extent to which antifeminism is
and men of color. As he spoke he was mocked by seg- pushed as an appropriate response to feminist movement
ments of the audience. This experience highlighted for that is perceived as anti-male. As a black woman, I know
me the way in which continued investment in sexual that we continue to be the objects of sexist violence that
hierarchy informs feminist movement, undermining the knows no boundaries. Black communities are in crisis.
possibility that there will be a mass conversion to femi- Revolutionary feminist theory and practice indicates that
nist thinking. Until women committed to feminist move- the inclusion of a focus on men within feminist agendas is
ment fully accept men as comrades in struggle who have necessary if we are to fully challenge and confront sex-
every right to participate in the movement (and no right ism and sexist oppression. I willingly give my energies to
to dominate) and recognize that they (men) would then work with men who are committed to feminist change,
be called by political accountability to assume a major who want to make a world where women no longer
role in feminist struggle to end sexism and sexist oppres- suffer patriarchy's heavy hand, where transformative fem-
sion, the transformative vision of revolutionary feminism inist visions are daily realized in the way women and men
will not be concretely actualized in our lives. live with and among one another.
Women cannot accept men as full participants in fem-
inist movement if we cannot address the depths of our
anger and fear of them. One of the most moving confes- Reprinted from "z" Magazine February 1991. For subscrip-
sions of such fear is expressed by Barbara Deming in tion rates contact "Z," 150 W. Canton St, Boston MA 02118
(617) 236-5878.
Mab Segrest's book My Mama J Dead Squirrel as they talk

97
 Performance artist/playwright Holly Hughes gained nationwide attention
when her grant was revoked by the NEA in election year 1990 (along with
grants to Karen Finley, John Fleck and Tim Miller). She said, "I think the
reason my work was overturned is because it is chock full of good old
feminist satire, and secondly, I am openly lesbian."
Since 1983 Holly Hughes has written and performed plays and
monologues. She grew up in Saginaw, Michigan in a very Republican, upper-
middle-class family before moving to New York and agitating in the
underground performance art/theatre scene. Prior to becoming a playwright/
"lesbian scientist exploring the polYmorphous perverse," she was a feminist
painter and sculptor. To date her performances have included Well ofHornineJ';,
Lady Dick, Dre.;.; Suit.; to Hire, World Without End, and No Trace of the Blond
(in collaboration with Ellen Sebastian) ...

_ _ _ _ _ _ _.-nr;;ji., C. ~-....r;;:::~::::;:~~ _

• ANDREA JUNO: You were in the eye of the hur- ty, and how they're going to be represented. A lot of
ricane when your NEA grant was revoked and you got lesbians have told me, "This is e;r:act!y what we thought
massive nationwide publicity- would happen: that you would be humiliated because
• HOLLY HUGHES: I keep wondering, "Who will be you were cheeky enough to be openly queer."
the new scapegoat?" There's a part of me that wantJ to be • AJ: -meaning that you're not supposed to be
the enemy of the White Patriarchal Class Structure. On 'lout"?
tbe other hand, when the machinery is turned against • HH: Right, and I've always made the decision to go
you, it's ,Icary. This reminded me of '50s McCarthyism. ollt,lioe. I feel that the coffee table art books of the future
All this builds on a certain hysteria in the culture should not be exclusively about white male upper-mid-
about sexually explicit materials-if you're aCCIL.leO of dle-class artists. Yet I think it's very difficult to work
being a pornographer, then you are one. This was the outside the lesbian community on your own terms -it's a
only time I agreed with Richard Nixon: he said how minefie!d out there. Everywhere I go people tell me I'm
difficult it is to turn something around once it's been the first openly lesbian performance artist they've seen-
publicized. yet I can't represent the whole smorgasbord of lesbian
• AJ: Why were you targeted by the NEA? experience. I'm just a white girl from the Midwest and
• H H: The mere whiff (ifyou will) - the;e ne ,mil qlloi of that's what I talk about ... let's have some diversity of
lesbianism wafting out from my work-was enough. In experience here!
the summer of 1989 Congress equated homoeroticism I often am told, "You're not like those ugly angry
with obscenity. To the heterosexist imagination, all gay dykes!" And then I show them that they're wrong-that
and lesbian experience is assumed a priori to be oversexu- I am very ugly and very angry! [laughs] One of the
alized. If only that were the case! [laughs] current issues is: whether you're inside your ghetto or
There are not that many openly gay or lesbian artists outside it. Outsider artists face pressure from the domi-
making work about their experience who receive fund- nant culture to make their specific experience universal
ing. I think lesbians tend to be legitimately terrified of and risk watering their work down. There's always that
what might happen to them outside their own communi- seduction to make work that's not about your own expe-
rience - pull a Tennessee
Williams, as it were. Yet
artists like Truman Ca-
pote and Edward Albee
successfully used their ex-
periences as gay men to
illuminate the oppression
of others.
There's a "pyramid"
scene that often happens
in the art world. If you
look at a performance
place, you '\I see they pro-
duce mostly white men
(generally straight or
closeted), one or two Af-
rican-Americans, one or
two lesbians (or one les-
bian and one gay man),
one Latino, and you 're en-
couraged to think that's
diverdity. Any person who
gets produced is encour-
aged to think -another
trap-that the cream al-
ways rises to the top, and
the reason there are no
other women around you
(or it's so white) is be-
cause you're the but! Who
can't fall for that: "You're
the best, babe!"
• AJ: That's tokenism
in action-
• HH: Right. And on
the other hand, if you do
achieve some visibility,
does that mean you've
sold out? No- I think you
can use your visibility in
beneficial ways. And so-
ciety wants all Outsider
Artists to be each other's
enemies. They want het-
erosexual feminists and
Photo: Dona Ann McAdams
dykes to be enemies; they
want white people and people of color to be enemies; and certain privilege in this culture, and that's important to
it's very easy to fall into those traps. Just within the acknowledge .
queer community, people of color are asserting them- • AJ: This complicated web of awards and privileg-
selves and wanting power, dominance, and visibility. I es, ranking and hierarchy, ultimately falls apart be-
think this mirrors some larger cultural change: America cause we're all really victims. Society tries to prevent
is no longer primarily white. The white male heterosexist you from getting a larger picture of what victimization
middle class privilege is being eroded, so now there's a means. Even the most macho white dude is to some
huge amount of anger and backlash. extent a victim, but since he has a more privileged
One woman said to me: "You know, I'm a white lesbi- position, he can't see that. For example, if he's in the
an, but I don't/eel privileged-even though people de- army he may not realize that he's just "cannon fodder."
scribe me as such." Yet her white skin dO&.I buy her a What is your art about?

99
 • HH: Well, all of my pieces deal very specifically and style feminism. I would never have believed in ,leparati."7l
exclusively with le.lbian de,lire, with trying to uncover or because it seemed too white and too bourgeois for even
recOl'erwomen's sexual power in a fucked-up context. My me to participate in-originating as it does in privilege.
performance ranges from the slapstick to the Theatre of On the other hand, I wouldn't be here without years of
the Absurd - hopefully it's not overly pretentious! lesbian separatism. Now nobody has to apologize for be-
ing a lesbian or for being a person of color or whatever.
• AJ: There's a big problem with the linguistic pro-
cess of labeling. You're this "lesbian" or "feminist"-
yet what do these terms mean? Everyone has a different
The mere whiff (if you will) - the je interpretation.
ne Jau quoi of lesbianism wafting • HH: Well, lots of lesbians will tell you I'm not a
out from my work-was enough for lesbian! I guess I'm not hardcore enough for them.
the NEA to target me. • AJ: There's the idea that those linguistic defini-
tions take away from the wholeness of your being.
Oversimplification (for example: you being labeled as
a "spokeswoman for the lesbian community") is a fre-
quent form of abuse. But at your last reading you were
Doyou know the work of Joanne Llewellyn, a lesbian talking about really universal experiences - such as
therapist who's written a number of books on lesbian being a waitress at the "Red Lobster." Within a dispos-
sexuality? She talks about how de-erotici::.ed the women's sessed community somehow the totality of life gets
movement was. Perhaps this was the only way we could defined in a really artificial way-
get some distance on sexuality, in order to be able to re- • HH: That's another one of those traps you get stuck
i/lllent what it meant to us. I know that when I was in. In performance, I rarely feel I have the luxury to be a
"coming out," the lesbian movement meant something human being-l have to always present content explicit-
very painful to me. With butch-femme identity polariza- ly linked to sexual identity. Only straight white men have
tion, the lesbians sort of fell for a heterosexist view that had an extended period of experience where they aren't
was an aping of male-female desire, rather than a very continually hit in the face with how their sexual identity
specifically lesbian experience. Then came a whole de- sets them apart - because their identity is seen as norma-
sexualization toward androgyny. Now thatJ completely tille. The "good coplbad cop" of any kind of liberation
changed: women are really getting into pussy in a big movement is "assimilation vs autonomy."
way, and it's great.
• AJ: And embracing the notion that makeup is not
just for seducing men, it's for themselves. Also, it's not ?7tt
even for another woman; it's for the tribal act of adorn-
ment-
They want heterosexual feminists
• HH: It's true. I really do feel that I can wear makeup and dykes to be enemies; they want
(whether I'm lesbian or straight) and determine what I white people and people of color to
think it's about for myself, more than any previous gener-
be enemies; and it's very easy to fall
ation could. My piece "World Without End" deals a lot
with my relationship to my mother. She was an incredi-
into those traps.
bly fucked-up person, and I think much of that just had
to do with the choices available (not to absolve her of
responsibility) - but what choices did a woman born in
Michigan in 1917 and growing up in an upper-middle- • AJ: On that level there's a power in the reclaiming
class WASP family have at that time? process ... proclaiming, "I'm a lesbian!" or, "I'm a
I clearly felt the conflict in her. She wanted to be whore!" -taking those once-negative labels and turn-
sexuaL she wanted to be creative, but none of that dove- ing them around. Our culture's language structure
tailed with her notion of what it meant to be a "good alienates us. Part of our legacy from the Industrial
woman." She feared she would not be loved; to her the Age is: widespread fragmentation and compartmen-
love of a man was something that redeemed the life of a talization of our psychic and bodily life-
woman-it almost made up for this huge waste of her • HH: Right. For example, even though I'm a self-
potential creative life. identified femme, when I'm fucking my girlfriend a lot of
• AJ: The reality is: she probably IvtUn't loved, and my fantasies are about being a guy fucking a woman. I've
this man's "love" was equated with her economic sur- finally gotten to a certain point in my life where I don't
vival. ;itdge that anymore; I've accepted that because it workJ for
• HH: Right. While I feel my work involves a critique me-J halle a dick and J know what to do with it. But there
of certain branches of feminism or where the movement remains that critique in the lesbian-feminist community:
is going, nevertheless I wouldn't be here without 1970's- that there's no language for female deJire ... And perhaps

JOO
I'm so saturated by heterosexual images that I can't
conceive of something that's uniquely my own and lesbi-
an. That might be true, but my feeling would still be, "So?
So can I still have my dick?"
I continually feel the poverty of the words and lan-
guage that supposedly express women's sexuality. There
are a lot of descriptions of what happens to a man's dick
from the moment it's flaccid to the moment he shoots his
wad - minute descriptions that are part of our collective
unconscious. But what happens to woman's genitalia?
There's no language-and I think about that.
One of the things 1 like about being a lesbian is: 1 do
feel freer in my sexuality. If I wanna penetrate someone,
I can do that. And I can fuck in any orifice. I can take my
imaginary dick off, and there are less values attached to
it, because if I'm a lesbian "top" or "bottom," those roles
don't translate to the rest of the world, whereas male/
female ones do. And what happens in bed gets mirrored
in the world, and values-positive and negative-get
attached.
• AJ: You're forced to reinvent language, because
women's sexuality has largely been delineated by male
writers-
• HH: I know. The other day I was sitting around with
my girlfriend and we were talking: "You always say I
have a big clit, but I have a tiny clit, it's so hidden!" Then
we realized the male referent: about cfit Ji=?! This was
like a humorous remembrance of times I had been with
guys who had anxiety about their penis size. It didn't
seem like the same thing, yet-! I realized that since 15
years ago when I first fell in love with a woman, I spent
far too little time really thinking about female sexuality:
sizes of clits, characteristics of vaginas ... what it was I
Liked. I spent far too little time really inventing or being
inventive. So much of my own shame and lack of imagi-
nation kept me from really exploring and defining ...
Women's sexuality' in this culture, in any of its specific
permutations (gay, straight, ambidextrous, of various
classes and races) has really been invisible or has been
lied about. It's interesting to think about coming up with
a new language for lesbians ... so women can express
the reality of their own experience- "World Without End" Photo, Dona Ann McAdams

• AJ: -without referencing to men ... What are

your thoughts on the Gulf War?
• HH: I feel angry that we could effortlessly come up 10 people called GANG in New York. It's mostly lesbian
with a billion dollars a day to spend on the War, yet and gay visual or performance artists including people
nothing, ever, for education. And that a $5000 NEA who've spent time in direct action groups like ACT UP.
grant to a lesbian performance artist is a threat to Na- We've been doing guerrilla postering and some guerrilla
tional Security. Congress passed the AIDS-Care bill, but performance, and it's been really exciting. First of all, as
there are no funds to implement it. The homeless and the someone who has mostly done personal or autobiograph-
environment are completely neglected. Obviously we ical work, it's such a relief to work on something else ...
have the money to kiL! people, but we don't have the to sit around over coffee and collaborate and fight (in a
money to do anything else! really good and productive way) about projects with
I feel so far outside of this culture, yet I know this is an people you respect, and come up with something and
illusion - I am part of it. There's that whole temptation to then do it.
just drop out. I keep wondering what the strategies are In Sheridan Square in the West Village, right across
so I can remain sane, have an impact - but not burn from a big Marlboro billboard, we put up a billboard of a
myself out. One thing I've done is join a group of about cowboy with Bush's face superimposed on it, and in the

101
 was completely about mYJe;~ualidentity. Why was this so
difficult to grasp? After all, the art world's riddled with
queers - it's a fruit bowl! Ask any woman in the art
world who tries to get a date on Saturday night! But why
is there so little art that speaks about that experience?
So we did this whole piece: everyone thought I was
supposed to corne out on stage, but the curtains opened
and I didn't corne out and I didn't corne out-finally they
got the joke. Then a gay man and a lesbian carne out and
talked about why I'm not speaking ... and that this is
what the right wing would like to have happen: they'd
like artists of color, lesbians, and gay men to simply
disappear 1 Then we asked all the queers in the audience
to stand up -a huge number rose to their feet. Then we
asked anybody who'd ever slept with a person of the same
sex to stand up, and there was a whole other wave ...
and then, anybody who'd done work that contained les-
bian or gay content to stand up, and there was another
wave.
We talked about the issues of community: why some
people were sitting or standing, and what did it mean?
... about putting your body on the line in terms of what
you care about. Then we tried to address this trickier
issue of: people who say that their identity, race, class or
sexual preference has nothing to do with their reception of
the work (because we'd like to tell the right wing that it
has everything to do with that). And it ended by us saying
to the people who were still sitting down, "If you're
uncomfortable with being identified as 'lesbian' or 'gay',
let's remind ourselves that we can talk all we want about
"World Without End" Photo: Dona Ann McAdams homophobia, but unless you're willing to put your body
on the line, it's not going to end. So if you're uncomfort-
same typeface as "Marlboro" it said, "AIDS CRISISl" able, and have a need to relentlessly assert your hetero-
and in the "Surgeon-General's Warning" box it read, sexuality, there's a word for that discomfort: homophohia."
"WARNING: WHILE BUSH PLAYS COWBOY We had various "plants" in the audience corne onstage
THERE'S ONE DEATH FROM AIDS EVERY to pick up these bags of pink triangle badges while this
EIGHT MINUTES INTHE UNITED STATES, AND Jewish faggot told this story: In 1940 when Denmark Wa.1
37 MILLION AMERICANS CAN'T AFFORD anne,~eJ to Germany, Hitler told the King of Denmark to order
HEALTHCARE." aft the JeWJ to Ivear yeftow JtarJ. The Danuh King '.1 ruponJe
WaJ to put on a yellow dtar! ThoUJandd of Danuh citizenJ auo
put on yeftow dtaN; aJ a ruult Denmark Wa.1 the only country
who Jidn't hape I1U1<1d e.~portation of JeWd. Then we said,
"Would everybody who's a gay or lesbian please stand
Even though I'm a femme~ a lot of
up," and we passed out pink triangles.
my fantasies are about being a guy Now the amazing thing is: we already had about 98%
fucking a woman --I have a dick compliance. But there were still a lot of people in the
and I know what to do with it. audience who were just furious; they wouldn't get into it.
They knew what was being asked of them but weren't
willing to stand up, and were angry. At intermission I
heard all these people complaining, "What are these pink
triangles about?" and somebody saying, "I think it's some
We also did a piece at the BESSIES (the GRAMMYs sort of ACT UP thing." And this is the arts community in
of Performance Art), which is just as bloated and preten- New :York City!
tious as the GRAMMYs. So much of the NEA contro- I constantly wonder, "What can I do to really become
versy focused on the individuals, whereas in my case I an ally with people of color?" It's the responsibility of
felt it could have been about any lesbian performance white people to cash in their privilege chipJ and really put
artist. The reasons why I was the one who was chosen their foot down. There's a way the lesbian/gay movement
are complicated, but it was so transparent that the issue could really be important - because it's so inherently

102
 It's m ulticultural- male and female queers are
1Iz/:1.yd. Hider! We're all Hitler! We all could he Hider!" Let's
everywhere and in all economic classes, ages, races and start from that point, because we all have that capacity
countries. for fascism -that egomaniacal potentiality, that desire to
On the other hand, we're all infected with a sensibility extrapolate from personal pain into a horrific external
which is so uncomfortable with "the Other" and with manifestation, and label that "politics" -whereas really
"difference" -this is baked into our religion. In our Judeo- what it is is an armor against per,wnal pain.
Christian tradition, you take what you can't understand
or incorporate about yourself and project it onto a ,'cape-
goat, so that then you're "free" (i.e., no longer responsi-
ble). It used to be an animal or a young human sacrifice
I've always resisted in feminism the
(as in the story of Abraham & Isaac). We've built a whole
culture on the psychological foundation of the ,Icape.qoat; notion that women are innately
IQ"
we evade responsibility by relying on this mechanism oetter or more " nurturmg ."
or
that is projecting rather than lilte.qrating- H cI N " b
oser to ature, ecause t IS h·
• AJ: -like projecting onto the "devil" all our re-
shows signs of the Bamhi mentality.
pressed desires.
• HH: Also, we can talk about patriarchy and power First of all: Is Nature gooo?
in terms of being too successful predators who are pro-
ceeding to do ollrJell'e,f in. We can talk about how human
beings can be better in the future, but perhaps these
impulses of aggression, territorialism and all that aren't
necessarily male-perhaps they're not lidJilman. They may Something that I've always resisted in feminism is the
really be in our blood and in our flesh; it may be horrifY- notion that women are innately "better" or more "nurtur-
ing and yet very normal for us to kill other humans over ing" or "closer to Nature," because this shows signs of
territory and resources. Maybe through admitting how the Bam/;[ mentality. First of all: Is Nature good? No-
normal this is, and how this is something we're dril'en to nature is u'ithollt flaLlie. If you look closely there's a lot
do ... maybe through acknowledging that under the that's horrifYing, offensive and not pretty in "Nature"...
grip of this "animal nature to control a turf" we're power- • AJ: The Civilization vs. Nature duality is a projec-
le,lJ, we might reclaim some power. tion of the Judeo-Christian idea that "Man" (that is,
"White Men" - blacks and Indians weren't considered
human) alone possesses a living soul which could re-
turn to God; everything else is condemned to hell.
With butch-femme identity Now certain scientists are claiming there's not only a
continuum between Man and Animal (chimpanzees
polarization, the lesbians fell for
can learn language) but between man and the machine.
a heterosexist view that was an For instance, no longer can we in good conscience feel
aping of male-female desire, separated from the other "animals."
rather than a very specifically • HH: Feminism, in associating women with "nature,"
has sparked some very complicated considerations. A
lesbian experience. Now tbatd
feminist friend of mine who's in her '50s says, "I used to
completely changed: women are be more of a conventional feminist, but now I'm a socio-
really getting into pussy in a big biologist by avocation. I feel that we're a primate society,
way, and it's great. and if you look at primate societies they're all male-
dominant. .. "
• AJ: But there are female-dominant "animal" soci-
eties, like bees-
• HH: Right. But I worry about any liberation move-
• AJ: A premise of our Judeo-Christian society is ment putting on blinders -that maybe we're not going to
that humans are gods not beholden to "animal" crea- "save the world" because we refused to face some un-
tures. Men think they are Juperior to animals. And this pleasant idea or fact. As a queer, I don't want to be
refusal to accept the animal (or devil) nature in man imbued with any "divine" qualities. I think there are
has created the psychotic serial killer - a creature who great deeds or events or people in queer culture that have
hasn't accepted his own animal blood, predatory na- been hidden or erased, and that it's important to reclaim
ture and territoriality - in a sense, the devil inside them. And I think that all Outsider cultures have some-
him. Yet only through acceptance can one become thing that the dominant culture really needs. But we're
integrated, whole, and creative again- not going to save the world by pretending that we're
• HH: Rather than say that Saddam Hussein could be more "divine" or more "natural" or more "archetypal" or
the next Hitler, I'd rather say, "We all could have been more truly thi.1 or that - ......

105
 let's go beyond the sanitized YMCAlLearnin.9 Anne;, term
"assertive") then I wasn't being "nurturing."
As a woman I really like children, although I don't
want to hal'e them; I have a lot of problems with all those
soft spots, plus their floppy necks. I suppose it's good for
the species that there seems to be an overalJllnoance of
people who think that babies are the cutest things in the
world. I'm sure my negative attitude derives from ways I
was neglected as a baby, etc. As a "woman," as a mark of
my "humanness," I'm supposed to be ol'erwheLmeJ by ba-
bies. But I'm much more overwhelmed and moved by
pre-pllDe.Jcence -young people caught in puzzling inter-
sections of childhood and adulthood. Yet as a woman I'm
supposed to be able to bake bread, love babies, and-
• AJ: Isn't that the dominant culture's definition of
how a woman's supposed to be?
• HH: But the feminist movement, in a lot of ways,
certainly emphasized nurturing, cooperation, ways of
relating to people other than war and abuse -and all
these were important values to assert in the world. But-
I just don't want to assign agenoer to them. I can't assume
that just because someone is a woman, they're going to
be more nurturing or more understanding or more hu-
mane in their administration of power than if they're a
male. We do ourselves a disservice if we make such
generalizations -
• AJ: A word like "nurturing" is quite meaningless
until you get into specifics. We have to beware of a
tendency toward aftUci.!m of laheling. For example, I
Photo: Dona Ann McAdams
really love certain horror filins that are filled with gore
and blood. As much as I think the Gulf War was totally
• AJ: It's a trap for women to think they're that evil, I have certain "male" likes: I loved watching those
separate. If you start defming what you "are," you planes swooping down on the CNN news broadcasts. I
start getting so many exceptions that any argument feel insulted if anybody's going to tell me what I as a
can be whittled down. Actually, there's nothing you female am supposed to enjoy or not enjoy-
can say that women are, that men aren't (and vice • HH: I think everyone's afraid, because all those val-
versa). ues that were successful for such a long time are now
• HH: In the '70s, feminist art criticism got lured down being threatened. In this horrifYing spiral that the world is
a CllL-oe-dac attempting to define qualities that "women's in, what are some values worth holding onto? I think the
art" had. Absurd generalizations were aired: "that it re- word "values" is just a buzzword, a euphemism for very
sembled their mother's tuna-noodle casserole," etc- white, very Christian agendas. During the whole NEA
controversy I was told over and over again (by people
who should know better), "This is a ChriAian country." But
the First Amendment guarantees us freedom from reLigwn
The prevailing view in this country and establishes our government as a democracy, as a re-
is that the role of art in this culture public withollt a state religion. This clear-cut separation of
is not to {}i.1turb anyone. church and state is really /leWd to people. And this separa-
tion is really being eroded by the current Supreme Court,
as is the part of the First Amendment that guarantees free
speech and the right of assembly.
• AJ: Or showed more "gentleness"- Really, the prevailing view in this country is that the
• HH: It's more useful to go into the actuaL work, than role of art in this culture is not to oi.JtllrD anyone. And
to make theories about how you can separate women's another serious problem is coLLectil'e amne.Jia: Nobody re-
art from men's art. There's a certain dcapegoating mentali- members anything. George Bush can make a statement
ty that happens in all liberation movements. I was in ... deny he said it six months later, and nobody ever
consciousness-raising groups in the '70s, and any time I confronts him on that. But we all know: it's not just what
was a pain in the ass I was told I was "acting like a man." you say, it's who you are ... and what you can get away
When I was competitive and assertive (let's sayafJ.9reddive; with . . . • • •

104
 A thorn in the side of the performing arts establishment for over 15 years,
Lydia Lunch is a "confrontationalist" whose musical onslaughts and spoken
word invectives ravage middle-class, male-oriented morals and dogmas.
Starting at age 16 as primal screamer/guitarist for the seminal New York
punk band, Teenage JedUd and the Jerkd, Lydia has continued her assault on
complacency via music, film, video, theater, spoken word, and writing.
Besides doing hundreds of performances, she has appeared on over 30
records, starred in a dozen films or videos, written 4 books, and produced!
written a play (South of Your Borde" with director Emilio Cubeiro in New
York City). Over the years she has collaborated with numerous musicians
including Nick Cave, Rowland S. Howard, Foetlt.J~ Sonic Youth~ Ein<iturzende
Neuhauten, Henry Rollins, and Michael Gira. Her own bands have included
Eight Eyed Spy, 13.13, Beirut Slump, and Harry Crewd.
Legendary underground filmmaker Richard Kern worked with Lydia to
realize her personal vision of the roadmap of sexual violence and desire in
the classic shockers The Right Side ofMy Brain and Fingered. She starred in
Beth and Scott B's films Vortex and Black Box and also appeared in Penn &
Teller's The InviJihle Thread and BBO Death Squad. Recently Lydia completed
KiM Napoleon GOOdbye, a film for Dutch TV co-authored by herself and also
starring Henry Rollins and Don Bajema.
In 1984 Lydia founded Widowspeak Productions to release her work and
the work of other cultural instigators with whom she tours-such as Wanda
Coleman and Hubert Selby Jr. Many of her early rare recordings are now
back in print. For a catalog offering incendiartJ in<ipiraHon, send $2 to Lydia
Lunch, Widowspeak Productions, PO Box 1085, Canal St Station, NY NY
10013-1085.
--- . . .W'~
~ _ ~;.~:::;;:~~ ------ .....
to accept-to take for granted-astounds me. It doesn't _
Part! seem like there's going to be any reversal of that ... so
exploitation, ownership and greed prevail.
• VALE: Do you think it ever will be possible to • AJ: But isn't that disrespect exclusive to a male-
have a society without exploitation? dominated society? Would that be transferred to a
• LYDIA LUNCH: No. Absolutely not. Because I woman-dominated society?
think it's man's nature to exploit power, position, author- • LL: At this point still (which is astounding to me), I
ity, money, and it stems basically from greed. Exploita- don't see the improvement of the position of women in the
tion and greed are tied together. socia\, political. or economic echelons. I don't see the
• ANDREA JUNO: You mean "maIlJ"nature-lit- "equality" at all. I still see chronic domination by white
erally. So far the history of our planet has been- middle-aged men in positions of power who will remain
• LL: - Male-dominated! Cllllp!ete~v IT)ale-dominated. there forever, because t!.Jey decide ",ho ,get" to decide. Nothing
And the general di.srespect that human beings have come short of tota! II'(//' between the ,'e,w,, is going to eliminate that!

105
 as standards: we have this
woman in a position of
power, so we don't need
another. I don't soon fore-
see equality of the minor-
ities, of the races, of the
sexes -and that's all in a
certain order! I don't see
any closing of that gap. I
see a widening all the
time.
Where I grew up,
Rochester, New York, I
saw black-and-white race
riots outside my door in
the '60s. But now, instead
of people in a community
banding together to pro-
test their position in soci-
ety. people are going,
"Fuck you, man, I know
I can't get ahead-I'm
gonna get mine." Not,
"Let's bind together and
show them we can't take
this shit!"
• AJ: How can the
position of women im.
prove?
• LL: I like the concept
of the CO!1<Jpiracy of Wom-
en; of a political party run
by womenforwomen. I'd
like to encourage other
women to become more
political, to bond togeth-
er, and to spread commu-
nication outside of their
Photo: Jane Handel small circles. 1'd like to
see more organization-
Equality hasn't happened - not in the past ten years; women encouraging others: putting out books, newspa-
and just examine the "progress" that's been made in the pers, magazines, TV shows, radio programs, videos, and
past twenty or forty! I don't know when that generation branching out in all media networks. Women have to
will finally die out: of the men who think like dinosaurs, find their own realm of politic, which doesn't necessarily
and behave like their ancestors. play any of those male games, or go by those male rules
• V: A woman like Margaret Thatcher behaves just or use those male formats, but which can somehow unite
like aman- and cause change and enlightenment! And that's what
• LL: - but using a single example like Margaret the hope for my future is - I know that!
Thatcher is irrelevant. It's like, how many Ronald Re- • AJ: We don't have the luxury of being thoughtless
agans and George Bushes and KhadafYs and Saddam about the earth anymore.
Husseins and Fidel Castros, Manuel Noriegas, Charles • LL: We're at the breaking point.
Mansons, Ted Bundys - how many of these can we name • AJ: We used to have a lot to kill: you could kill
to one woman in a position of power who acts like every- many people, animals and plants, but the earth
one else? That example means nothing! wouldn't die.
• AJ: Also, it's the male power structure that allowd • LL: But now it's the opposite: they're killing too
someone like Thatcher in - a women they know and much of the earth and not enough of the people! Another
trust will play by their rules. relierJaf of inteffigence.
• LL: Yes; she is useful as a token. Tokens are often set • AJ: So how do you view yourself regarding all this?

106
 • LL: Merely as the in..,tl:9atOl: Merely as the cattle prod. insecure; they hate themselves or they hate their parents
Instigation can be a fine art in itself! I never claimed to (or both), because they don't know what love is, and
have any answers or solutions to the world situation; I don't want the love they never knew. And that lack or
merely report on it as I see it. But a common complaint void (which they've never dealt with) has twisted and
about me is: "offers no solutions." Just because I call demented their entire reality. So much of the problem is:
what's going on "disintegration" or "apocalypse now," fear 0/ intimacy . .. not knowing how to love or be loved
rill supposed to provide the salvation?! or nurture or encourage without controlling, manipulat-
lIJil answer the fuckin' question ... and answer it for ing, hurting, perverting. I think this stems both from just
yourself. Politicians offer solutions - they never work. the repetitive cycle of abuse we had to withstand, and
My job is just to question the roots of the madness. also a reaction against the '60s Love/Hippie shit. Two
• AJ: We all live in a brutal world, yet some people forces that converge on the same generation to really
see this more clearly than others. I think everyone on make people cruel, mean, and unconcerned ... not only
some level is brutalized by existence- about themselves and others, but about the situation.
• LL: Absolutely. And that's why when people ask me, Hence: apathy, lethargy, destruction, mayhem, boredom,
"How can you tell those really perdonal stories to every- drug abuse and death.
one?" I reply, "These are unillet<Jal stories. Merely be- • AJ: Yet you've used your art as a catharsis to not
cause I use myself as an example ... " only speak for other people, but to heal yourself.
First of all, you shouldn't feel shame about the abuse • LL: From the time I was about 10, I was writing
you've incurred because -first rule, to all the victims -it poetry and stories. So I had started to channel that
l.., not your fault. Too many people take that guilt and painful energy while quite young. But also ... I think
shame upon themselves. Secondly, I'm only using my the way most victims perpetuate the cycle is by e;'l:peri-"
own example for the benefit of all who suffer the same menting on others and turning them into victims to relieve
multiple frustrations: fear, horror, anger, hatred ... I the pressure of their own pain. And I think I began doing
speak for those who can't articulate it, that's all. And the that very early as an ou tlet - at 1I or 12. I became the
stories aren't just personal-often they're very political, "Bad Seed," like so many of us were. I kept notebooks or
too. But the sexuality, the politics, the abuse-it's all journals of these "experiments." I considered every rela-
interrelated, it's so historical. It goes beyond and before tionship from the time I was 11 as a pdychologual tedt of
my lifetime - it goes back to the fucking calle. strength, will, power, control, and pain.
• AJ: Your childhood was pretty wretched, right? • AJ: For a woman, that isn't exactly a conventional
You were sexually molested by your father- outlook; it's an inversion-
• LL: It's quite brutal to realize at the age of six that • LL: But it's just the other side of the victimization;
one is no longer a child. You feel that something has the mirror image. Instead of turning it around, this merely
snapped that will never return to you. And you can perpetuated the cycle of abuse. But I think you can
rationalize this, without the intelligence to truly under- divorce yourself from that repetitive cycle of pain and
stand it. That's the biggest obstacle to overcome: the victimization and channel the negative energy into cre-
point when you realize everything has suddenly changed, ative outlets so that you don't have to continue to experi-
and will never go back ... until . .. you return the ment on people. That's the growth process: to understand
power to yourself that has been stolen by that other your psychoses and neuroses by spending enough time
person -and that's very difficult, and takes a long time to by yourde~f ... to know yourself, and IOlle yourself (not
master. needing anyone else, of course, to love you). Yet also: not
being in a position where you reject love because-god
forbid, it's the four letter word!
Victimization steals the capacity to love or be loved,
and that's a waste - in fact, many genera tWILl' worth of
I like the idea of a community
waste. Defensiveness, insecurity, ego and inadequacy
sense. I like the concept of the plague the people of our country, because that's what
COn.Jpiraey of Women; of a political they're taught: they're not good enough, they're not rich
party run by women for women. I enough, they're not white enough, they're not smart
enough. And that's inbred, generation after generation.
like the idea of this threat
The thing is: with patterns and cycles of abuse, the
rhythm of the psychology and the drama behind these
occurrences is what pumps the adrenalin through most
people, because otherwise their lives would be unbear-
Because no matter how petty or how intense the abuse ably numb and deadened from the pain they've wit-
that a child has to go through -physical or psychological nessed before.
or self-induced environmentally, financially-everyone To be free of these negative, self-defeating, painful,
feels as if something has been "tolen from them, or that alienating, lonely feelings, is to really accomplish agreat
they have been battered beyond repair. People are so achiellellunt. Because "they" don't want you to feel any-

107
thing but what they've drilled into you; they want to • LL: I think Emilio Cubeiro started doing the first
steal your pleasure-your pleasure zones; they know performance art/poetry at CBGB's in '72; he lived right
that when you're miserable you're not as effective or around the corner from there - he still does. When I first
strong as when you're happy. And when you as a wom- arrived in New York I stayed with some hippies includ-
an can makr yourJe/fhappy, empowered, strong, loving, ing Lenny Bruce's daughter, Kitty Bruce. She was mov-
concerned, nurturing and encouraging (especially to- ing out of this loft and I took her room. Then I met James
ward other women) ... when that empowerment can Chance ... and then my band started. But his "tage
be restored or regenerated in a loving fashion without antUJ - he was jar too expressive to be in Teenage JeJUJ
threat, abuse, violence, cruelty or ego ... that'.! when and The JerkJ. Because I wanted a very rigid regiment of
you start developing. almost military precision -this band was not to be a
spontaneous combustion, it was about uncompromising,
percussive stabs of pain. And his was a much more free-
floating, lugubrious expressiveness. Finally we had to
decide, "James, you have to do your own thing, pLeaJe.
They're killing too much of the You shouldn't be held back. I'm not going to tell you not
earth and not enough of the people! to do that-just don't do it here!" Other bands like Mard
Another reIJerJal of intelligence. and DNA were already rehearsing at my house-since
everybody knew each other, the whole scene quickly
bonded together ...
• V: It must have been like punk rock in San Fran-
cisco, 1977-it wasn't just about music~peoplewere
Instead of being a flaky blonde who works for some- remaking and rethinking everytbing. It was a complete
body else, I'd rather be a shrewd businesswoman any day, cultural rebellion.
thank you very much. I know how to get IVhat I want done- • LL: Yes! It was a very good time. It was the up-
that's my job. swing. It was still riding the crest of the '60s "liberation."
• V: Actually, how did you become a shrewd busi- • AJ: What ideas from those days do you still hold?
nesswoman? By demanding that every detail of every • LL: First and foremost: no compromi.1e. As soon as I
contractual arrangement be brought to light? started writing, doing a band, recording records, going
• LL: Exactly-instead of just agreeing with whatever to Europe, touring ... all that just made me realize (as I
was proposed. By organizing. Conceive, execute, document, had always known): "YoulVant to do Jomething, YOU DO IT
deJut, go on. That's being a shrewd businesswoman. Make Luten to no one but yourdelj. DO IT" I think that's the most
sure that everything you do is documented to your satis- important lesson. Being able to do something at such an
faction. You don't take No for an answer-whatever it early age intensified in me the idea: "Don't take No for an
takes, you get it done! answer. If you want to do it, you get it done. You've got
• AJ: What was it like back in the beginning of punk to do it yourself. Don't listen to them; don't listen to
rock? You were a pioneer~ anyone else. Do it the way you want it done."
• LL: "Annie Oakley of the Wild East." The manifestations of these themes have changed ...
• AJ: How old were yon when you moved to New have gone from one pain, one heartache, one broken
York? bone, one mood swing, one emotional dystopia, one stab
• LL: Just turning 17, I think. in the dark ... to another. Well, that's just part of the
• AJ: Did you run away from home? developmental procedure of examining yourself and try-
• LL: Of course. I just left. The End, Chapter One. I ing to get over your personal story ... then looking at
had been going to New York since I was 14; I'd run away the greater picture. Because until you're over your per-
from home a few times to check out the CBGB's sonal problems, you are so self-obsessed, so wounded-
scene - that was happening. The sense of community was animal-in-the-cave, that when you finally salve the
very strong; people were having a good time and feeling wounds: admit, eLiminate deniaL, go to conjedJwn, get over it
good-it was before the big self-destructive binge when · .. when you can see the bigger picture-you realize
punk declined into death, destruction, and drugs. It was that not only are you not alone, but there's even less hope
more positive. for the whole picture than there was with you just crying
When I first started going to New York, people went in your bedroom with the gun in your hand! Now you
to these wild discotheques-5 stories, with incredible need tlVO guns-'-one in each hand!
"happenings": just people performing-gays, lesbians, • AJ: -and they're no longer aimed at yourself.
blacks, drag queens, glam rockers, whatever. All differ- You wrote two of Richard Kern's films, Rigbt SUJe of
ent types-all the sexual minorities-were blending to- My Brain andFingere{}-two very powerful films. How
gether in these huge discotheques which were left over do you feel about the impact they've had?
from the late '60s. • LL: Well, I'm very happy with the way the first film,
• V: The punk scene started with poetry as a focus, Right Side oj My Brain turned out. It was made for only
somewhat like the Beatniks started. $500, I believe. It's very black-and-white noir, with a soft

J08
poetic explanation about the cycle of feminine abuse and crashing down whenever a heavy emotional confronta-
violent relationships and why possibly that carries on tion might threaten to force some deeper communica-
· .. how the energy connected to that, and the adrenalin tion. Yet that's when they become men and no longer act
that goes along with that, is what abates all the pain. I like boys, because boys are the frightened ones that don't
look at it in the same way r think Polanski's RepuLlLoll is a want intimacy because they fear it ... because they
romantic film: it's tragic in a way, but it's not sappy-it's might get hurt-as if anything is going to hurt ... and
very sad. so what if it does? -you'll live.
Fin/Jered is an uglier rendition of a similar theme. It • AJ: Exactly. To shatter your ego-do wbat? What
shows again how the cycle of abuse turns the victim into are you losing? Just your previous sense of your Self.
the victimizer - someti mes completely accidentally Hopefully you can learn and get wiser. You can't learn
through being a "victim of circumstance" -through be- about yourself in a vacuwn - only by taking risks can
ing willing to "go along with" the situation to see what you gain valuable lessons that increase maturity.
the end result of the experiment will be. The thrill of the • LL: What amazes me is that people feel it's better to
kill. shut down and not experience something, than to experi-
• AJ: The intensity in Fingered is an achievement in ence possible pain. Women deal with chronic and con-
itself. It's like looking at the world through the eyes of stant pain throughout life: physical, emotional,
a psychotic. psychological-living in our society as the second-class
• LL: It's not meant to be erotic, or pornographic-it's citizens they still are.
just reality-and that meansponll~9raphy!Most people don't Fear of rejection and possessiveness often go hand-in-
want to take that chance ... to test or learn. And that film hand, and that's where things really get dangerous and
was a leanulzg proce.t.t: to try to show that sometimes ugli- unattractive. People fear rejection because they really
ness and pain, when they're in your face, are very attrac- need to possess (or be possessed by) someone else. Be-
tive from a close distance. We were trying to show how the cause basically they dOll 't want to be alone. They don't want
rule,! of attraction may be quite different from the way they to be with themselves. They're frightened to be alone.
seem -well, there are no rules. Fir,1f rule: no rule.J! They don't know how to live with themselves; therefore,
they always have to be living with someone else ...
throll.9h someone else. I really don't think people should
live together; I think they should live separately-com-
pletely. Because that freedom is so important. Even if
So much of the problem of the you're working on separate creative projects, you still
generation I speak for is: fear of need time to be alone in order to cente/~ I think that
intimacy . .. not knowing how to "codependency" is the first bullshit that has got to go.
Society chronically reinforces the notion that you need a
love or be loved or nurture or
mate, you need a partner, you need a husband, you need
encourage without controlling, a lover, you need a mother, you need a father, you need a
manipulating, hurting, perverting. fuck-or fuckyou!
• AJ: Let's get on to another subject. You did the
screenplay, "Psycho-Menstrum," based on your study
of female diseases. You learned how there's really very
little research being done on them-
• v: Do you think it's possible to have a personal • LL: I'll talk about my diseases if you talk about
relationship without exploitation? yours! LetJ play doctor. PID interests me incredibly, be-
• LL: I don't know. I have to admit that exploitation cause pelvic inflammatory disease first publicly reared its
(in my own personal experience) was part of the learning head in the early '70s, mostly because of the Dalkon
process-there was no choice. Because I'm not writing Shield lawsuits. This was an IUD which a lot of women
fiction; I'm not dealing with oil-reality. So in order to could have been suing for if they read the one article
stop the exploitation that goes on in my personal rela- printed in the paper last year, because Dalkon was hand-
tionships ... every character that goes through my life ing out $6 billion dollars to women who had been injured
ends up in a story. They're interesting characters that by their IUD. And any woman who has had an I UD has
need to be documented, because they won't do it them- no doubt suffered in one way or another. I don't know one
delveJ and their stories need to be told. Exploitation al- mall who would allow a copper rod to be inserted into the
ways has a bad and negative connotation given to it. But tip of his penis and left there to rust for years ... and
it just depends on how it's done: willingly, secretively, continue to function as a sexual human being.
against one's will, or with full approval for therapeutic or • AJ: PID is an intense "set" of diseases that they
educational purposes. know nothing about. The AMA would never tolerate
• V: One antidote to exploitation is cOllllllunication knowing so little about a male disease that affected the
or honest confession- male penis - .
• LL: And here a lot of men shut down; the walls come • LL: -and that affected so much of the population.

109
At least 25-30% of the female population have suffered gesterone, causing an imbalance which causes her to
from PID, because it if sexually transmitted. And once start acting like a man-not the desired effect! She be-
you have it, you tend to get it again - under stress, bad comes extremely sexually aroused and bLooJthirJty, acting
diet, no sleep, or different sexual partners. Every time a out fantasies [which have been illustrated by cartoonists
new unprotected partner is introduced into your femi- Robert Williams and Charles Burns]. Each fantasy is
nine body (we forget how raw and exposed the feminine experienced not only as a hallucination but as an actual
genitals on the inside are; how close they are to the inner chemical imbalance which causes indescribable mood
organs; they're the gateway to the whole body) pollut- swings-just like premenstrual tension -only e.o:aggerat-
ants run rampant-whether they're something that you ed under the influence of the drugs.
notice and smell or not. Very unhygienu! All sorts of femi- I'm hoping that with a caricatured, slightly comedic
nine cancers (which they don't want to call feminine portrayal leaning toward futuristic sci-fi Je.O: horror, some
cancers, like PID) are transmitted sexually through un- controversy may be instigated (if at first as a joke). At
protected contact that women pay the cost of. LadieJ, least the fum will pose the question, "Why isn't there
invest $ I .99 - get yourself some condoms, please! (Or: if research being done about this?" What if women ()UJ
men are too fuckin' cheap to afford 'em, they're outta begin taking hormones and steroids and acting like men-
luck! You don't need "it"!) what would the consequences be? Women should start
pioneering ... experimenting with different drugs and
hormones, to find a remedy that is not harmful and that
possibly could be administered holistically.
That's the growth process: to • AJ: It's amazing that PMS and PID are still tit-
under.Jland your psychoses and tered about. If you talk about prostate cancer, no-
body's tittering about that. But somehow PMS is
neuroses by spending enough time "funny": "She's on the rag," and it's not taken serious-
by your.Jelj • .. to know yourself, ly. The whole field of women's gynecology-
and love yourself. • LL: -is 50 years behind the times. And the lack of
holistic research -well, holistic medicine is not an abu-
sively profitable business, so that's why there are no
holistic cures. It's practiced by individuals who are not
To me AIDS is not as frightening as all the other necessarily linked to medical associations - therefore they
things that lead up to it. People have a/oclld on AIDS, but usually can't charge too much for a given herb.
no one is talking about the twenty other common sexually • V: There are over 9,000 "medicines" in pill form.
transmitted diseases which plague mostly women (which Think of all the profits-
men do transmit, but have no symptoms of) like chlamy- • LL: At $15 to $35 a bottle, or more!
dia, which many people have, and which can also go into • V: They're an ideal capitalist commodity: cheap to
the bloodstream and cause what is commonly known as manufacture, invested with a mystical aura-plus you
"Yuppie Disease" -chronic fatigue. can charge whatever the market will bear.
• AJ: In a performance you cited a litany of these • AJ: Also, most drugs don't really heal, they just
diseases that sounded so poetic- relieve symptoms, so you have to constantly come
• LL: -just like a Greek chorus: Chlamydia, Candida back for more-
Albicans, Condyloma Acuminata (genital warts), • LL: Absolutely. Drugs often relieve one problem and
Trichomonas, Vaginitis, Endometriosis, Pelvic Inflam- replace it with another. Antibiotics often eliminate one
matory Disease, Herpes, Syphilis, Gonorrhea-to name form of infection just to make the body vulnerable to
a few. Let us not forget non-specific urinary tract infec- another-which they can treat you for again. Thus they
tions (NSU) ... perpetuate your cycle of sickness and discomfort and
• AJ: In your screenplay you're also talking about weakness and suffering. But I'm not a doctor; I can only
PMS: another underreported- complain about this. I'm not inventing any new cures; I
• LL: -problem we all suffer from. [laughs] It's about can only ask, "Why aren't you doing something about
a biology student who's dissatisfied with the lack of this?"
research about many ills, but especially the monthly mon- It's unbelievable, but before 1970 the American medi-
.Iter: premenstrual tension. Unable to comprehend how cal society. would not admit that women actually had
half the population could possibly suffer from this every cramping every month-it was a figment of your imagi-
JingLe month (the cramping, the bloating, the weight gain, nation! During the Victorian era it was, "Don't get out of
the irritability, the insatiability, the mood swings) she bed!" God forbid-she might get crazy, she might do
sets out to experiment on herself with steroids and hor- something horrible, she might become violent - so Jtay in
mones in order to discover a solution hopefully beneficial bed. But during the Depression women were out in the
for the entire female population. fields working, because female manpower was needed.
Her experiments come to unfortunate ends, because Cramps? -you worked through them-"it's all in your
she tries injecting steroids, hormones, estrogen and pro- head!" So society has treated the menses differently

110
throughout history: hiding women in huts when they're then I won't be able to go to sleep.
menstruating (Rastafarians did that). • AJ: I read that statistically at lea"t one out of
• AJ: The menses is a very powerful time, when three women have been victims of incest as children -
you're connected to your deepest sense of self ... but • LL: And what about men?
we're not in an inner-directed world, we have to be • AJ: Well, they don't collect statistics like that be-
external; we have to answer the phone- basically we're cause they want to protect male sexuality, right? But I
thrust into this frenzied capitalist world- wouldn't be surprised if it's high for males, too. Little
• LL: All the stress, the caffeine, the work, and the girls and little boys are basically-
pressure make the menses all the more uncomfortable. • LL: Fodder for abuse.
The fact that you have no time to go illio yourself and • AJ: Yeah. Passive, powerless receptacles. But I
actually rejuvenate makes it worse. And of course cramp- think there's a lot of self-empowerment coming out of
ing and frustration are just going to feed off each other. that now. People are really starting to deal with that
Everything is compounded; there's no time to just allow issue-deal with that rage.
the menses ritual to take its time for regeneration, like • V: You mentioned an idea for a seminar?
animals do who are more in tune with themselves -who • LL: To do a seminar for women only, that would
are not blinded by the 9-to-5 paycheck chase. bring together a lot of concepts about reparation, self-
• AJ: ... Why did you choose "Widowspeak" as a empowerment -getting over addictions, co-dependency,
name for your record company? self-destruction, and loneliness.
• V: -like the Black Widow Spider? That's why I moved to ew Orleans: to do a lot of
• LL: More like the woman without a husband who research, reading, writing, and pull together different
doesn't lleed the man ... or who's olltti"er} the man. I sources of information to try to arrive at some kind of
think it sums up a philosophy: the "ilte/~' are doill.fJ itfl1/" "non-school-of-philosophy" basic hOIl'-toguidelines to help
them,lel"e,'. yourself lIot continue doing the same things you've al-
ways done ... holding yourself back in the same ways.
Part II I'd also like to set up a women's art coalition -an art
therapy house where women artists and writers from all
• V: Do you always get up at 6 AM? around the country (or the world) can come to just relax
• LL: I like to, because the first four hours of the day or work. So that they can have li/Pllt from other women
are the most peaceful. No one's calling you on the who are also doing progressive and creative endeavors,
phone, I can assure you of that. No one's knocking at and also try to get over their own personal disabilities.
the door, and even the mailman doesn't come 'til noon. • AJ: What are some of the philosophies you'd ini-
So I like to get an advantage on everyone else; have tiate?
some peace time. Also that's just my natural rhythm- • LL: Well, to get over all bullshit 11011', and to quit
that's when I wake up. I'm not really a night person like harboring pain from the past. Now is the time to take
,10 lIIallY arlitt" [sneers] - fuckin' clowns. (Yeah, the cir- your stand and to empower yourself. We all have been
cus happens at night, too!) I prefer to rise with the sun. beaten down repeatedly in every relationship that in-
That doesn't mean I go down when it goes down - if only volves another person -to one extent or another. The
I were so lucky. So many of the nights of my childhood seminar would be just for women to be able to look to
were based around fear and apprehension of night which themselves, empower themselves, and need only them-
has to do with the fact that my night life was "tolen from selves. Instead of looking for another person to make
me as a child at a very early age. your life happy, have the potential in yOIlI'"el!, to make
• AJ: What do you mean: that your nights were other people happy - not to satisfY them or cater to them,
stolen from you? but to be secure in your own desires and intentions so
• LL: Well, by an intruder in the form of the father that you can inspire other people to get their act together.
figure. I think that's the priority.
• AJ: And this started when you were really young? • AJ: How did you achieve this for yourself?
• LL: Yeah; I think that's when my whole "night sick- • LL: Thirty-one years of crawling through the shit
ness" came in. And that's why I'm probably much more ... slowly and surely eliminating all the destructive
active in the day. Because at night I would have to-as a patterns, habits and rituals, one by one. Trying to ana-
preservation or a survivalist tactic -"hilt dOIl'II. When I lyze where they came from, and where certain attrac-
lived in L.A., I was in a constant state of night panic, tions, addictions and patterns originated.
because it's such a violent place. It seemed like people I asked myself, "Who am I? Where the hell am I, and
committed the most random violence just for pleasure, at this point why aren't I further along the road than
and I really felt I cou Id be the next target ... thl;'?" I think people have got to give up the fear of being
So it might seem that I would be so panicked at night alone, e,'pecial!y women - and especially when after twen-
that I wouldn't be able to fall sleep until 6 AM. But it's ty-five they start feeling that already they're too old.
the oppo.fite-if I can get to bed before midnight, ]'11 be They don't realize that they're reaching their peak at
okay. But if I don't get to bed until 3 in the morning, thil'ty~fl'"e or even older - not twenty-one, not fifteen. If

111
 Photo: Birrer

women could just be strong enough, secure enough, and allow themselves to just give it up. They have to chroni-
happy enough to live by themselves-JattJ(yln.'1 them- cally OD,leJJ on what they're going to do next, or what just
selves-ultimately they'd be satisfYing other people as happened. As opposed to just sitting back, shutting
well. This is a very important lesson. Most people are down, shutting up, and letting it out. This is such a basic
more lonely with someone else than they are when they're concept, you know?
by themselves. I mean - physical exercise is good for that. Bike riding
• AJ: That's for sure. A live-in relationship leads to is good, taking a walk-anything that puts you out of
a daily dose of dulling ritual- contact with everyone else and into contact with your
• LL: It's a pattern -and patterns are not good. What I Jetf I think even just breathing and physical exercise
originally started dealing with was my own personal helps you concentrate more. Improving your physical
internalization of the abuse of the world, because you condition can have a powerful effect on your mental
have to externalize your frustration and anger in order to health - just through the oxygen intake you can improve
see it and get over it. You can't just keep it bottled up your outlook. Look at someone who's neurotic, hyper-
inside, because eventually that will drive you InJane. ventilating, panicking-meditation could be a necessary
• V: What ifyou're not a painter, writer, or sculptor? I11lt.lt!

• LL: There are other forms of expression. Even the • V: You were talking about "letting go" - I think
ability to just confide in other people, and get things off that's easier said than done: to let go of past pain, guilt
your chest-that's in the oldest tradition of storytelling. and unresolved trauma from childhood-
• V: Would you work with meditation? • LL: The key is to resolve them and let them go. To
• LL: I think meditation is a good thing. Meditation distance yourself also-
gives you that twenty or thirty minutes where you don't • V: You mean forgive yourself?
think about anything else ... except for energy and • LL: Yes - to not take the burden. Most victims take
healing. I think that has a very positive effect - because on the responsibility as if they caused the problem. That's
you need that free time, that free space. the whole syndrome with child abuse: they always feel
People don't give themselves that time; they don't that they're the ones that brought it on, they're the guilty

112
party. They take on the guilt because usually the violator gets the adrenalin going) than a "peaceful, happy, loving"
does not. And the guilt has got to go somewhere. relationship-which to most of us sounds pretty fuckin'
I think the flrst step in self-recovery is to be able to boring (although it doesn't have to be).
say, "I am not the guilty one. It was not a personal thing I think the basic key to a long-lasting relationship is to
against me. I was just the convenient battering ram. I was realize that that person is not there to satisfy your desires
just used as the receptacle; I am not the receptacle." I and goals, but to satisfY their Oll'n. And ifyou at the same
think that's a big key to getting over personal pain over- time are clear on your goals and desires and satisfactions,
load -to distance yourself from personal responsibility then you can coexist (and I don't say cohabitate). And
about the act that was committed against you without then, if two people share so much in common that they
your desire -when you were either too young or too can continue in a relationship for an extended period of
weak to defend yourself. The flrst key is to forgive your- time ... freedom and respect for the other person have
self and to take back yourself, reclaim yourself, and to got to be the priorities: "You want to do that? Do it!"
heal the self-hate that these situations have forced you
into. Because that's the biggest plague of our generation
anyway: Je(f-hate.
Also, people propagate their own abuse. They get Women are denied
stuck in that pattern, it's all they know, it's what they can
masturbation even more
respond to, it's what they know how to deal with. A great
quote from Bataille's GuiLty: "The greatest desire is a severely than men ... that's
wounded person's need for another wound" -very true. another method of control-
Because that's what you know, that's what you can deal they're not taught to please
with, that's what you understand, and that's what you
respond to - because through pain you have blocked out
tbenuelve.1. It takes most
just about everything else. women a while to warm up to
" b
I think that feeling of dislocation, limbo, and disorien- t h e I IsItuation,
· •
ut once t hey
tation is the first thing that's got to be healed or clarifled get into it, they1re hooked-
in a victim's life: "You are here now! That shit happened,
well everyone I know is!
but now it's over!" Easier said than done, but-you first
have to realize that the paJt i.1 the paJt. And in order to
prevent the future from mirroring and mimicking that,
you have to take control immediately and focus on your I think that's where most relationships begin their
emotional conditions which are not intrinsic to your true downfall: when one person tries to please the other-one
self, but that were ground into you. person tries to live for the other, satisfY the other - be
So many responses that you have are not real respons- the ideal of the other. Why not be the ideal of yourself?
es - they're conditioned responses. And that's the first thing Why not make yourself as satisfied and happy and full as
that's got to be given up: ''I'm acting this way because possible? And if the other person can enjoy that ride,
they did that, and this is the conclusion." Also I find in the there's a sidecar - "Strap yourself in! Put your helmet
communication between people (especially two pained, on-it might be rough!" But I think people are too
frustrated, unwhole people) that between intention and dependent on other people for their happiness, their
interpretation there is so muchperverJion. Because people satisfaction, or to alleviate their loneliness.
take a communication or response and then start twisting I also think women are denied masturbation even
or perverting it to mesh with their own cycles and abuses more severely than men, and that's another method of
and patterns. And that's very dangerous. That's also what control- they're not taught to please themselves. Whereas
locks people into cycles that propagate themselves in a men jack off from the time they're nine years old! Most
relationship: so many things just keep getting misinter- women - it takes them a while to warm up to the"situa-
preted, become cyclical and destructive: "Well, you said tion," but once they get into it, I'm sure they're going to
that, and you did that, but you must have meant thi.J. So get just as hooked as -welL everyone I know is! I think
I'll act like that.}} PAIN ATTRACTS PAIN. The more if women were taught to love themselves from masturba-
capacity you have for pain - welL when your pain thresh- tion on upward, that would make the whole sexual con-
old is your greatest accomplishment, that's not much of flict a little easier to deal with. If women could really take
an achievement! And being the Queen of Pain, I can tell themselves as their own lover, and enjoy their bodies and
you: There are other things that are more important! their sexuality, with and to and by themselves-that's
• V: Aren't we always striving toward the goal of 50% of the battle. My favorite line is: "Masturbation
being nonexploitative in our relationships ..with our satisfies what reality cannot withstand."
friends? • AJ: [laughs] That's a good one. Most women don't
• LL: Absolutely. However, I do think most people are even know their own genitals!
more interested in conflict, because it's more interesting • LL: It's not like they don't have mirrors in the house,
and it's what they're familiar with. It's more exciting (it honey. They're all over the place. Get down there and

113
 been pounded into them,
and have taken their own
stance - it's beautiful.
Women should find en-
couragement in the fact
that there are men out
there that are capable of
rising above the bullshit.
I wouldn't shoot 'em for
the world!
I'd also wipe half the
female population off the
face of the fuckin' earth if
I could - because they're
not doing their job; they're
buying the game; they're
swallowing it whole-
they're fuckin' choking on
it! What makes them bet-
ter? Just because they're
not running the fucking
game -why should they
get more credit? They're
allowing it to continue in
the same fashion too. So
it's not as if this side is
good just because they're
women -that's bullshit.
You can't just cut the pop-
ulation in half. It's not that
easy.
• AJ: One of the dan-
gers in a separatist com-
munity is that through
hatred and conflict to-
ward men, they internal-
ize the very attributes
they are against, thus
perpetuating the same
Photo: Beth B. old game-
• LL: Absolutely.
start doing a little investigative research -unlock those • AJ: What do you think about pornography in gen-
mysteries. Because 98% of the men out there aren't going eral?
to able to. • LL: I think the problem is not getting rid of what's
• AJ: So what do you think of the lesbian separatist there-just expanding the boundaries of what exists.
view that men are incorrigible-that this world has Mine is not to dictate -it's to encourage.
gone too far, and men really cannot be coped with? Men have these concepts of female submission in the
• LL: I don't think we have to disregard half the popu- first place, and pornography caters to that. Pornography
lation just because 75% of them are chronic assholes. is a symptom of the problem which is sexual inequality.
We've got to think about the ones that are willing to Eliminating one of the symptoms doesn't solve the prob-
change, and the ones that are capable of change, and the lem. You've 'got to go to the root cause and redress the
ones that are really fighting (in their own way) for the imbalance.
right side, anyway. I don't think all men are bad, or that • AJ: It's very important to distinguish what is fan-
aU men are evil and stupid. I'm not a lesbian and have no tasy and what is reality.
desires of becoming one in the near future. I don't think • LL: Absolutely, because denying women pleasure
it's that simple-to just wipe out half the population. It and making them feel guilty about it, is to deny them
would be nice, but I'd miss a few of the buggers myself. I power-that's the bottom line.
think they're lb.leful. When men have gotten over what's • AJ: Right. If people really gave pleasure a top

114
 priority, who in their right mind would go into an my notebooks when they were finished!
alienated office and sit and type aU day - 40 hours a • V: Really?
week (plus commute time) - for some corporation that • LL: Yes, like: "Well, I knowthatnow-timetotorch!"
doesn't give a damn about them? How do you keep an I don't think that you need a specific artifact to express
iMane system like that going-in which people will- what you know, or what you're going through, or what
ingly consent to the taking away of their own lives? you're doing, or what you're creating. I think you just
• LL: If the American white male-dominated society have to be able to open the floodgates-to be able to let
is based on violence and war, then if women really want that out in a way that's going to heal . .. whether it's into
to get ahead, that's the only route they can take. They a book, into someone else's face, into a tape recorder, into
can't try to reason. We've been trying to reason with a typewriter, onto a canvas- I don't think the/annat is so
men for thousands of years, and it doe."1 't work. Men are important as the fact that you just have to be ready to let
not reasonable people, for the most part - they're too it out ... give it up. And also, if need be, open that
territorial. So now it's time to say, "Well, this is our wound to scrutiny by other people (as opposed to the
fucking planet. We gave birth to it, and it is in our "male thing" of just closing down, shutting up, and keep-
likeness that it is created. You are fucking with us-so ing it inside). Women "naturally" tell other women what's
fuck you." Because that's the only language they can going on - they don't seem to have that inhibition. They're
understand. They're not going to understand reason- more open to expounding upon the di.JelUe 0/ the oay.
ing. Tot at this late a date. • AJ: Shame is what the control system's all about.
• AJ: How do you see women evolving-getting to- The power system wants you to feel ashamed and
gether and organizing? secretive. For decades women's sexuality has been a
• LL: I think there's no choice -.'omeone:' going to have source of Jhame and denial- and that has just perpetu-
to start organizing coalitions. What would I like to pre- ated the status quo. Secrecy and keeping things inside
dict as the ultimate outcome? A complete overthrow. are all part of a mechanism to keep you down and
And real revolution, and for women to just ..hut the whole powerless.
ii/cking country oown. Just say No. Don't pay the rent. • LL: Absolutely.
Don't pay the gas bills. Don't pay any insurance. Just • AJ: Where do you think you derive your strength
say, "No, I'm not working anymore!" But it has to be from?
done totally- I mean, people have all got to be ready to • LL: I always gathered my strength from knowing
take that stance. It can't be ten isolated people or you'll that it was the redt of the worlo versus me. I took comfort in
get squashed. It can't be just a few women here and there that fact-as opposed to other people who feel so alone,
sneaking into positions of power. It has to be done in the and get buried by it. I know that every problem I speak
only way they understand, which is to dominate them about (no matter how personalized it is or how unique
and to completely overthrow them. Because otherwise the details are) is univerdal.
it's not going to happen.
• AJ: So what would you like to see right now?
• LL: I'd like to see a women's army storm into the
White House with Uzis and shotguns and eliminate at
least half the population who work in politics. They're We forget how raw and exposed
killing you slowly-what's the alternative? Kill them the feminine genitals are on the
quickly, kill them now - before they kill everything else,
okay? That's the only choice. Sorry- I didn't make it up,
inside; how close they are to the
you know? Revolution is not a new concept-it just inner organs. Every time a new
hasn't been practiced for a long time in this country ... unprotected partner is introduced
not in the way other countries are willing to practice it. into your feminine body
And there i.J no time left.
- pollutants run rampant!
• AJ: So what are you doing?
• LL: I'm rallying the troops. That's my job. Everyone
should assume a position in the ranks of this army, be-
cause it I., war, and that's it. As I've said before: if 1% of
the population controls 80% of the money, that ..hit had got No matter how well I knew anyone else or how well
to change. anyone understood me, or how well I got along with
• V: . . . Would you advise women to keep journals anyone, still: you .Itano by YOllrde(f, at the end of the day
and diaries? and at the end of your life. So why not get used to that
• LL: I think diaries and journals serve a function, at fact? Why not grow to become your best friend, your
least to be able to have something (if not someone or biggest confidante, and your staunchest supporter?
somewhere) to put thoughts that totally plague you. But Maybe that started because within my family struc-
you've got to be willing to learn from the repetition that ture, I felt as though I didn't belong to them. I didn't look
will be written in those pages. I always used to burn all like them, had nothing in common with them - I felt I had

115
been exchanged in the nursery-which my parents had his creative powers, he understood the basic fearJ. And
told me and I always belie"ed! So feeling separate within he displayed them in horrifYingly graphic, exaggerated
the family was a good introduction for me to the rest of terminology, which made it obvious where they were
the world. I felt isolated from the time I could walk, coming from-every atrocity was excused by the fact
think, and talk -and with the abuse and all of that reli- that its origin was manJ human nature.
gious insanity compounded with incestuous alienation- • AJ: What do you think women'.! human nature is?
well, at a very early age I just took comfort in the fact that • LL: I think it involves nurturing, growth and devel-
I didn't belong. opment, and I think for the most part it's a very peaceful
nature -when it's not pounded out of them, and when
it's not perverted in them. Find me a woman that hasn't
been perverted by the powers that be, and I'll show you
one that hasn't been born yet!
People have aJocUcl on AIDS, • AJ: You have a warrior mentality, but you also
have grown beyond that. You aren't going to fuck
but no one is talking about the over other victims, or derive sadistic pleasure in-
twenty other common sexually • LL: -eliminating the weaker. I get more power from
transmitted diseases which empowering weaker people than I do from obliterating
plague mostly women. them. It's the ones that think they're so strong that need
to be obliterated. Why pick on the weaker?
• V: Do you think that men wage war because they
haven't really come to grips with death itself?
• LL: WelL I have a quotation: "Men are so afraid to
die that they have to kill everything in sight."
I grew up in Rochester, New York, which is a fairly • AJ: Exactly. Men are so chuken dhit-they are so
large industrial town. There's a ghetto of every breed in scared of death-
every corner of the city: bike gangs, gangsters, and hard • LL: -and losing control. And having to submit.
boys-the work,}. I loved it. • AJ: And the ultimate submission is to death-
But by the time I was 13, I knew I would get out of • LL: -a very natural progression, I might add. Thank
that reality. I knew that I needed to get out on the road god for aeathl It will one day be over - at least thi.J version
and start experiencing what lay beyond. of it.
• V: Did the movies have any formative influence on • V: Do you believe in reincarnation?
you? • LL: I don't really like the term "reincarnation." Kar-
• LL: As a young teenager I went to the drive-in mov- ma -that's another tricky one. I think things are recycled
ies a lot. One of the first films I saw was LaA HOlUie on the to some degree - I think energy gets recycled. Reincarna-
Left-probably at age thirteen. And that was a good tion? - I don't know.
education - it's a small tale of psychotic revenge on three • V: Well, maybe you'll be reborn-
rapists who end up getting their own deaths served on a • LL: No. I hope to not be reborn, actually. I think I've
platter in a very grisly fashion. It was fascinating to me reached the limit of my endurance for this reality. I
at the time - far more so than it is now. would like to think this is my final life-that doesn't
But I think that music influenced me more-and writ- mean I feel it may have been my only one, but I would
ing. I was reading Freud, Sade, and Hubert Selby at 14 like to feel it is the laA one.
or 15, and those 3 writers probably influenced me the What we do with our lives is basically squander as
mOJt-more than movies and more than music. Music much of them away as possible, until we get so near to
influenced me to get out of Rochester and go to New the finish line that we panic. But in my own personal life,
York, because I saw and heard what was happening I hope that thi.J i.J it. I have no faith in reincarnation for
there at CBGB's and Max's. But reading those books- myself in the future, and I would prefer it didn't happen,
especially LaA E-cit to Brooklyn and the books by the thank you "ery much. I look forward to the relief of death.
Marquis de Sade-made me decide there was more to I've never shirked it. That it hasn't greeted me at my
reality than the one I was functioning under, so ... til1u front door yet is a miracle - I've left the door wide open.
to e.r:pand. • V: But you don't tempt death, do you? You're fair-
• V: In Sade's books, did you identify with the males ly prudent.
who are torturing the women? • LL: No, I've just lived in about 42 ghettoes in my
• LL: I could identifY more with the philosophy be- life, where I was surrounded by maniacs of every dimen-
hind Sade-that behind all the actions was human or sion, from every walk of life. No, I do take precautions-
animal nature. And that "nature" is the intrinsic driving I do wear clothes in the street. [laughs]
force behind murder, rape, domination, fear, and insecu- • V: What do you think about women studying mar-
rity. Because Sade, more than anyone, understood human tial arts, self-defense, and handgun skills?
nature. Even when he was exaggerating to the fullest of • LL: Absolutely - more power to you. Whate"er it tak&!.

116
Whatever it takes to make you feel better, and better able
to defend yourself. Hand-to-hand combat and the ability
to do so is an important issue, but more important is the TEENAGE JESUS & THE JERKS: various records
ability to protect yourself from all the other traps that including songs such as: Orphan,,; Led,1 of ;tie; Baby
"they" set for you - the more insidious pitfalls. That's Doll; Freud ill Flop; The CLo,Iet; My Eyed; Race Mi.'ing;
more important. Burning Rubber; Red ALert; I Woke Up Dreaming. On
influential NO NEW YORK LP.
BEIRUT SLUMP: Try Me; Staircase.
LYDIA LUNCH: LPs: Queen of Siam; Con,'piracy of Wom-
en; Oral Fl:.. . atwlI; HYdterie; The Ullcen,lored Lydia Lunch;
III Limbo. Plus "The Agony Is The Ecstasy." "Twist-
Men are so afraid to die ed/Past Glas."
that they have to kill EIGHT EYED SPY: Diddy Wah Diddy; Dead You Me
everything in sight. Beside
13.13: LydiLz Lunch; 15.15 LPs.
HARRY CREWS: Naked in Garden Hi/ld LP.
VARIOUS COLLABORATIVE RECORDS with:
Rowland S. Howard (ShotgUll Wedding); Ein.lfur-
,:;ende Neubauten; Die Haut; Michael Gira; Lucy Ham-
Of course, as violence becomes more predominant, ilton; No Trend; Birthday Party; Thurston Moore;
one has to be equipped to face that reality, because it's Clint Ruin; Don Bajema, Henry Rollins, & Hu-
becoming an urgent issue. It 1.1 civil war thatwe are living bert Selby Jr (Our Father" Who Aren't In Heaven).
in. Just because one's safe little reality isn't confronted (Note: some of the above available from Widowspeak
with it every day because of blind spots, blinders, and Productions, PO Box 1085, Canal St Station, NY NY
defense mechanisms, doesn't mean it's not right there. It's 10013-1085. Catalog $2-make checks payable to "Ly_
there. You're just safe for noll'. dia Lunch.")
• AJ: Rape is up 50% over the last 10 years-even Film d ViJeo.'lraphy
taking into account the fact that more women are
reporting it. With James Nares (1978): Rome (1978). With Beth &
• LL: I think if more men started becoming the victims Scott B (1978-81): BLack Bo", The Offenderd, Vorfe".
of rape -or castration - that might help redress the im- With Beth B (1990): Thanatopdu. With Vivienne
balance of sexual violence. Dick (1979-80): She Had Her GUll Already, Beauty
One of the points in my "Capital Punishment" speech Become.I the BeaJt. With Babeth (1990): KUJ Napo-
was that since women only commit 13.3% of all crimes, Leoll Goodbye. With Richard Kern (1984-86) The
they should have their own subways, their own streets, Right Side of My Brain, Fingered. With Penn & Teller
their own cities, their own countries, their own conti- (1986-1990): The Invl:,ibLe Thread, BBQDeath Squad.
nents, and eventually their own planet-ye,'! Run by and With Merrill Aldighieri & Joe Tripician (1988):
for women. Just for a change-just to see if it makes a The GUll I" Loaded.
(Note: Fingered & Right Side o/My Brain available for $26

...
difference. I think that in the past there hape been matri-
archal societies that have been completely unacknowl- each ppd from: Richard Kern, PO Box 1322, NY NY
edged or unrecorded by "history." 10009.)
• V: In Bangkok, so many women complained of
being harassed by men on crowded buses that they
instituted busesjUJt for women. AduLterer:, Anollymow, with Exene Cervenka. Grove Press,
• LL: Great. Excellent. Why should I be forced to 1982.
mingle with the other 87% of the population? lllcnininatin.q Evidence. Last Gasp, 2180 Bryant, SF CA
94110.
• AJ: What do you mean?
• LL: WelL if women only commit 13% of the crime- AS-FlX-E-8 (comics by Mike Matthews, Lydia, Nick
• AJ: Yes, and that crime is usually prostitution or Cave)
white collar crime or something relatively victimless. My FatherJ Daughter. Unpublished autobiography.
You certainly don't really have to walk down the street Film Sen;,t d Play
in fear of a woman-
P"ychomenJtrllll1: The Ca..'e of the PMS Murder". Film, 1991.
• LL: No. Not yet! •••
SOllth of Your Border. Play w/Emilio Cubeiro, performed
NYC, 1988.

]]7
 A native of Los Angeles, during the past two decades Wanda Coleman has
written two thousand poems, a hundred short stories and given over three
hundred dramatic poetry performances. Her voice - exciting and hypnotic-
has been captured on several recordings: Twin Silter.; (with Exene Cervenka),
Black Angefu (with poet Michelle Clinton), and most recently, Black and
Blue NeWd (produced by Lydia Lunch's Widowspeak Productions). Her
books include MtUJ Dog Black Lady (1979), lmagoed (1983), Heavy Daughter
Blued (Poems & Stories 1966-1986), A War ojEYed and Other Storied (1988),
andAJrican Sleeping Sicknedd (1990), available from Black Sparrow Press, 24
10th St, Santa Rosa CA 95401. Currently she hosts a poetry interview
program, "The Poetry Connexion" on Pacifica radio KPFK. Wanda Coleman
can be contacted c/o PO Box 29154, Los Angeles CA 90029.

_______.-nr4irI ?
~------
• ANDREA JUNO: You grew up in L.A.? so I started wearing a wig. People will accept a wig
• WANDA COLEMAN: Yes. I was born and raised before they'll accept your natural hair-even a natura!
in Watts. Then aLL of South/Central L.A. became Watts wig, because the real thing-authentiCity-is a threat.
after the riots in August '65. Until 15 years ago I lived in • V: What were your parents like?
that area. • WC: My parents were petit bourgeoisie. My mother
I have some college, but college and I did not get along was a domestic-she came to California from Oklahoma
too welL so I dropped out. I had a hard time - I was when World War II started and jobs opened up for
taking workshops, and my lifestyle was usually working blacks here. She worked in movie stars' homes, and in
two or three jobs, including waitressing on weekends. I fact worked a year for Ronald Reagan when he was
had two babies by the time I was nineteen, and they were married to Jane Wyman-she quit when he wouldn't
being shuttled from one babysitter to another. give her a raise! [laughs]
All of the problems that are "trendy" now, like child- • V: "Inflation-what's that?"
care-see, I was avant-garde for that. How do you deal • WC: Even then! [laughs] My father moved here from
with childcare? -how do you build a survival unit? To Little Rock, Arkansas in 1931 after a young black man
survive, I was networking with girlfriends in "everybody was lynched from the church steeple. They just left the
eats when you have money" kinds of situations. When I body hanging there... Some people with California
divorced my husband at the end of the '60s, I was still license plates were passing through town; he offered
thinking, "There's so much liberation going on -ofcourJe them $15 for a ride, and they brought him to Los Ange-
I'll be able to get a good job." Little did I know! I les.
discovered I really had a hard time getting a job, espe- • V: And he got a job-
cially since I wore my hair in a natural- • WC: Well, his aunt was a domestic who also worked
• VALE: White people were getting naturals, then- for Ronnie Baby as the washerwoman who would come
• wc: Oh no they weren't! I applied for a job with a do the laundry. She invited my mother to church and
Mack employer who told me, "You're a very striking that's how my parents met.
woman ... but you've gotta do something about that • AJ: I think people don't realize how recently black
hair!" [laughs] I never went back! And because I was people were getting lynched-
working 2 or 3 jobs, my hair was too hard to maintain, • WC: Well, it's still happening! Just like the drug

118
 Photo: Olivier Robert

problem - no one tells you that the drug problem was the • WC: You're spread so thin trying to survive or make
creation of the federal government from the start. Blacks ends meet that you have no voice. This is true of women
were targeted and drugs were put into the black commu- in this society, and particularly women with kids - I
nity by the federal government of these United States, think it takes a genill.J to be able to write amidst this! Yet
and the drug problem didn't become important until it there are more of us than you think - have you seen the
spilled over to the dominant culture. Then suddenly it Breaking Ice anthology? There's 52 writers in there-
became a problem, just as with LSD. And where did LSD most of whom rile never heard of, and most of them have
come from? The government. 5 or 6 books out. And they range in age from 25 to 70.
• V: I saw a photo of a black man who had been But it's hard for us to get in the mainstream of literature
lynched in San Jose (near San Francisco) in the '40s- because our books are seldom reviewed, and we're sel-
not that long ago. I thought that oply happened in the dom interviewed. This society has what we call the "Nig-
Deep South. ger of the Minute syndrome." Only one token nigger is
• WC: WelL in downtown Los Angeles they lynched 9 allowed at any given time, regardless of regionality or
Chinese gentlemen in the '30s. Ah -"America the Beau- differences in style.
tiful!" It's strange, but in recent years there's been quite an
• V: There's a lot of hidden history- increase in "artificial opportunities." All ofa sudden you're
• WC: And you won't get it if you don't look for it- in demand, but this demand is really tokenistic: "Hey, it's
you're certainly not going to be taught it in JchooL. [laughs] Negro History Month!" So the only time you'll get work
I remember being in high school in '64, taking World wi.ll be during Negro History Month-the rest of the
History and reading, "The negro race has made no major year you'll be ignored.
contribution to the history of the world." Uh -right! • AJ: As if you don't have something to say about
There's a whole lost history, and as a writer, I constantly the human condition in general-
think about the fact that no one's ever written, say, the • WC: Well, according to the gentlemen who put to-
history of Black Los Angeles... I've written 6 books gether the Great BookJ of the WeJtern WorLo-we don't.
and feel it might have been 16 books if I'd· had the quality Whatever literary prizes that may be available to us are
time to just do that. doled out tokenistically: you have to fit into a certain
• AJ: That's how they keep you from having a voice- mold, you have to be .la/e.

119
 • V: How did you start writing? class became 80% black and 20% "others" (Latino, Fili-
• WC: Even as a kid I tried to keep diaries, but I was pino, etc) with maybe one or two poor, lower-class whites
so full of hate and rage that when I go back and look at left.
them, they're nothing but bursts of anger-very little else. In class there were so many ugly situations. I remem-
But my parents encouraged me; I had my first poems ber one time the kids called our white male teacher a
published when I was 13 in the local "fishwrap" throw- homosexual (you didn't do that in those days), and he
away newspaper. went ber"erlc and proceeded to tell us how superior he
I was the kid who always got an "A" on the Father's was! I remember teachers getting beaten up by kids or
Day poem - I was sort of an egghead, but a dumb egg- parents or uncles because of some racial incident or
head! [laughs] I was always daydreaming and reading slur-they would wait for them after class and beat the
literature other than what was given me in school. At that shit out of them, or destroy their cars. These were mostly
time books were segregated -you had bOYJ' literature white teachers.
and girlJ' literature. When I went to the library, I could • V: After high school, you had two kids before the
read Cberyl Cralle, NUNe, books by the Bronte sisters, and age of nineteen?
Nancy DreuJ myJterieJ - yes, tb'Me horrible things! But I • WC: Blame it on the Civil Rights Movement! [laughs]
wasn't allowed to read Sir Arthur Conan Doyle or H.P. My first husband was a trouble-shooter for SNCC [Stu-
Lovecraft - the boys' books. So I would have my fatber dent Non-violent Coordinating Committee, a civil rights
go to the library with me; I would pick out what I wanted group] who came to Southern California with Jesse
and he would check the books out. Jackson and Stokely Carmichael. He was a white guy
who was part of Martin Luther King's inner circle; he
had been in several early protest marches. He was from
Georgia (and called himself a redneck), but he was a
My father moved here from Little very unusual person-very unique for that time. He
Rock, Arkansas in 1931 after a came out here for a fund-raiser and stayed.
young black man was lynched from • AJ: So you were getting politicized then?
• WC: I would say that he politicized me. Interestingly
the church steeple. They just left enough, his politicizing brought our marriage to an end-
the body hanging there... because I began to outgrolV our relationship. I still wanted
to be a writer for the "revolution," but I knew I was being
treated patronizingly-the men didn't take me seriously.
Because ifyou don't have something to offer-either sex
Then I could read to my heart's content! And I was or money -you're of no value for the most part ... ,Itifl!
reading way beyond my years: when I was ten I had read [laughs] The roots of this haven't changed.
the complete works of Shakespeare. I read Sir Richard Also, my father had given me a lot of ideas, even
Burton's Tbe Une.cpurgated Arabian NigbtJ -in fact I had a though he didn't have a college education-he had
gorgeous leatherbound copy of the Arabian NigbtJ, but dropped out of school when he was eight years old.
left it in the trunk of the car one night, then came down Nevertheless he taught me a lot about graphics, advertis-
with encephalitis for two months (there was an epidemic ing and the media- I know how to dummy a newspaper,
going around) and while I was sick my father sold the for example. He tried for years to get a black men's
car! It was beautiful-it had all these colored plates in it. magazine going in the '50s, but Johnson Publications
And it was gone ... (who controls the circulation of Ebony, Jet, etc) stone-
In high school I began reading the heavyweights: walled any competition.
Nietzsche, Sartre, Heidegger. And my teachers started • V: - the black media establishment. How did they
getting UpJet. One of them actually told my parents that react to the emergence of the Black Panthers? Did
these books were bad for me; that they were making me they even cover this?
rebellious, and that my parents should forbid me to read • WC: Well, those publications have a policy: unless
them. By then I knew I wasn't getting a good education, it's sanctioned by the white media-unless you're recog-
because I had done all this reading. Also, I was on the nized or sanctioned by the pop culture, you're not going
debate team. So I would go from inner city black schools to appear in their pages. Because they're not about ex-
to white schools in Beverly Hills and look at ~ther kids' ploring or finding out about anything.
books and compare them to what I was reading-and I • V: So for them the '60s never happened? The Black
Icnew they were getting a better education! Panthers and SNCC were never covered in their pag-
This was when the "white flight" was beginning- es?
when whites were fleeing the inner city of Los Angeles • WC: Only after they became big names and received
and moving elsewhere. When we first moved to our national attention. My first husband and I were involved
house, the neighborhood was white, but by the time I in "US" when Ron Karenga and his group [of black
had graduated from high school only two white families militants] were photographed for the cover of Life. There's
were left on my block-and they were old people. So the a picture of my son in the magazine; I still have it. It's

120
funny-my husband was so in tune with the movement of the excitement! We were always crashing concerts
that he was able to sit among people like Ron Karenga and doing things like jumping up on the stage. 1 remem-
and Huey ewton -and he was white. ber when B~q Brother and the Holding Company came to
• AJ: Those were exciting times- L.A. and did a concert in one of the parks, and 1 jumped
• WC: Very exciting, because I was living in two worlds. up onstage with Janis Joplin and was dancing-me and
We were living in the world of the black militants, but we my brother and a guy with a banana in his crotch -I'll
were also living in the world of the hippies. So we would never forget it! And they wouldn't push you off the stage;
go from Love-in.! to underground meetings plotting the they would let you dance. You can't do that now. But
overthrow of the government! My husband and I were back then you could get up onstage and then go back-
on our way to becoming members of the weather Under- stage and get high with them, or whatever. And when
ground when we split up. At the time we belonged to a you went to Griffith Park, the families (there were sever-
para-military organization. We went from group to group al "families" there, including the Manson family) would
(starting with the NAACP Youth Council) just getting pitch tents, and you could go inside and sit and talk with
steadily more and more militant. We had heard about the them or share their food -it was great! Everyone was
Symbionue Liberation Army, but decided to join the weath- young and beautiful, and drugs were free, and it was a
er Underground. Then I decided I wanted to become an fabulous time.
artist-that was more important to me. So we split We went to San Francisco during the Summer of
up - I decided 1'd had enough of being married, any- Love. We had a '58 Studebaker convertible and one day
way . . . we jumped in it and headed north to the Haight-Ash-
• V: You'd begun to see inequities in the "revolution- bury, in and out of crash pads and head shops-we just
ary" underground? did the whole trip. It was a wonderful experience -like
• WC: Definitely! Plus, there was a strong anti-intellec- an endless series of parties and meetings-it was really
tual climate - if you saw through somebody's game, you Jomething to go through!
had to keep your mouth shut. You couldn't caLL them on 1t's funny, because 1 was going through all of this with
it. There was a subtle group pressure to conform to the one eye open and one eye wary - 1 was cynical even then.
party line. You didn't ask questions-you didn't question 1 felt that people were underestimating the enemy-and
your leadership, so to speak. And there was a lot of I was right. 1 thought a lot of the leadership was extreme-
intimidation ... ly naive, if not downright stupid. During the Poverty
Program, they were handing out all this money, and it
was like the program was designed to fail. People were
being trained on obsolete equipment; money was being
The drug problem was the stolen right and left by young hotshot accountants (black
or otherwise) who got in there and started ripping off the
creation of the federal
money, driving around in gold Mercedes while blacks
government from the start. and Hispanics weren't getting anything. These old,
Drugs were put into the black "churchified" preachers who didn't know what they were
community, and the drug doing were getting paid to "teach" young people -it was
all an immense disaster.
problem didn't become
• AJ: But now things are so much WOrde!
important until it spilled over to • WC: Of course! When you talk to a lot of blacks,
the dominant culture. they reminisce about how wonderful the March on Wash-
ington was (when Martin Luther King gave his famous
"I Have a Dream" speech). Well, that march was sup-
posed to be violent,. it was supposed to be angry-not a
If you reaLLy Looked at some of these people ... if you giant love-in! What happened was: when the government
were bright enough to see through their "mac" [con found out that blacks were going to be furious, they got
game] and say, "WeLL, 1 don't necessarily feel like doing on the horn and contacted black leaders and told them to
that; that doesn't make sense to me," weLL-! I'd always get the militants outta there. They got all these old "bis-
thought the Panthers were wonderful theater, but 1 didn't cuits" like King to turn the march into a giant love-in.
think they were revolutionary. But when they'd come into And that'~ one of the reasons things are the way they are
a room dressed in black leather and carrying those rifles now.
on their shoulders-if there was any grumbling in the • V: You called King a "biscuit"?
room, it would cetUe [snaps her fingers] -everyone would • WC: 1 was never in his camp. I always felt that what
just snap to attention! So it was an exciting period. There happened in the South was fine, but that it didn't have
was this feeling that, "Wow -we reaLLy are going to make universal application to all the problems that blacks face
a difference!" Little did we know. . . . .. that you had to use different strategies in other parts
We also spent a lot of time in Griffith Park at the love- of the country, particularly in the Northern cities and out
ins. That was the other thing-the mUJU: was such a part West where racism wears a different face and is much

121
more sophisticated ... where people kill you with kind- jigaboo pictures on the wall. I don't know who put them
ness-they'll be grinning in your face, saying "Oh, yes, up-a black artist could have painted them, for all I
brother!" while they're stabbing you in the back. But know - but I found them insulting.
who was going to listen to a 19-year-old female? I had no The paintings were recent-they weren't old. I didn't
power, no influence. Usually people would just look at need to see this shit, so I tried to ignore it. My husband's
me and tell me to shut up. Jewish; he's from Brooklyn. I was trying to pretend I
• AJ: Now things are so bad that there's no hope of didn't see them, but finally he said, "Wanda, look at those
mobilization. Do you think rap music will- jigaboo pictures on the wall!" I saw the owner, a French
• wc: Aslongaswe'redancin',weain'tfightin'!When Jew, sitting by the counter, and I said, "Matt, ifyou want
blacks were rioting, a song by Martha and the VandeLLa..1 to file a complaint, go talk to the owner over there." He
came on the radio: "Dancin' in the Streets!" I think that went over, and all of a sudden she couldn't understand
song was deliberately promoted by the government, dur- English -kind of convenient, you know? [laughs] I was
ing that long hot summer, to distract blacks from taking listening to him trying to explain, and finally I went over
care of serious business. and said, ".YeJ! As a black person, I can testifY to the fact
Did you know we have never had a major black that these paintings are offerklive. In fact, they make me
actor? Sidney Poitier and Harry Belafonte are not Amer- feel like getting an ax and putting it in the head of the
ican black men -they're islanders. [laughs] They're from first white person I see-youl" [laughs] The owner went
the West Indies; they're not American black males. And into shock . _. then started snatching pictures off the
the ones that we've had have been comedians or comics. wall! I mean-if I had put swastikas upon her walls, I'm
See, the-clowns and the gangsters always have work. In sure she would have understood that. For her not to have
the black community, those are the people who make the understood-give me a break. Let's get reaL.
money-the clowns and the gangsters/sharks. Every- When I was a kid, my first experience of being called a
body else suffers. "nigger" involved a white kid. My Jon:, first experience
• V: What do you mean by gangsters? involved a NicaraguLln kid-see what I'm saying? There's
• WC: I mean just that. And you can make those ap- a real lack of understanding about: when you go to
pellations as broad asyou want. By "clowns" (and I don't another country, you buy into whatever the Lie is ifyou're
necessarily want to demean some of these people, but I'm going to survive there economically. People who emi-
talking about how they're viewed by the dominant cul- grate to America buy into the lie of American racism,
ture): Michael Jackson would be a clown, Oprah Win- which means keeping blacks at the bottom of the society.
frey would be a clown, Bill Cosby would be a clown, People emigrate here and their psyches are whoLe. They
Eddie Murphy would be one. These people are allowed haven't been oppressed on that racist level. So when they
to make money in the system and in the society because come here, they don't underJtand black Americans-who
they're no threat, no danger. we are or where we're coming from. And they're not
• AJ: And very rarely do you ever have a black male going to get enlightened by our history books, psycholo-
lead who's a sexual, romantic figure- gy books, newspapers or TV These people have no way
• WC: Exactly. Here we are on the verge of the '90s, of understanding us when they get here. So you end up
and they're censoring Whoopi Goldberg kissing a white with conflicts between communities: the blacks and the
guy out of a fJm -give me a break! But you have to Koreans, or the blacks and the Vietnamese, or the blacks
remember this is HoLLywooo, the entertainment capital of and the Cubans ... as an outgrowth of this lack of
the world. Women have made inroads in science, in information and understanding.
politics, but they haven't made any inroads in Holly- • AJ: And of course the white estabIishment-
wood. It's the same old Jame oLd. • WC: - feeds off that and encourages it. In the '60s I
• V: Women are sometiInes film editors, but rarely would encounter people from Nigeria or Kenya or wher-
directors- ever, and the first thing they would say is, "We have been
• WC: You have a few... And the men are hip to the told by your government that we're not supposed to
game - if feminism becomes trendy, all of a sudden they're associate with you; otherwise they will cancel our visas."
writing feminist scripts, too! [laughs] Blacks also have • V: Did they also feel superior because they were
been tied into this "artificial liberation" -this illusion Mricans?
that blacks have achieved all of their goals-and women • WC: Yes-and rightly so, because they're coming
too! That's right. Therefore, whenever you have a spokes- here the same way a European would-they're immi-
man for the so-called "black point of view" (there may be grating into the country. They have been subjected to
5 different attitudes within the black community), they'll colonialism, but even colonialism did not erase their cuL-
pick a cOllJervative black. ture. Even South Africans have their identity as a tribal
Perhaps I'm particularly sensitive; maybe you could people -they didn't have their language taken away;
talk to somebody else black and they'd say, "I've never they weren't forced to intermarry the way Aborigines
experienced prejudice. I've never experienced racism." were, or the way blacks were in the breeding plantations
Recently I went to hear a friend read at a punk rock in the United States.
place called the Anti-CLub in L.A., and there were these The victims are constantly blamed for being victims in

122
this society. Historians will tell you, "Well, you black "literary" person, because I felt that's where the changes
people sold each other into slavery." But actually that originate-the popular or "low" culture always cannibal-
wasn't what happened: one tribe might have sold an izes the "high" culture. Also, working in television I got
enemy tribe into slavery, but that isn't the same thing- tired of being told what I could say and couldn't say - so
that's tribaLi.Jm. Whereas raci.Jm is a unique American I went to book,}.
product. Throughout the history of the world you always • AJ: Do you feel hopeless or enraged?
had one tribe, regardless of what race they were, fighting • WC: My anger knows no bounds; my anger is un-
another. There was warfare, and one culture would ab- limited. I'm a big lady, I can stand up in front of almost
sorb or cannibalize or be parasitic upon the other. To the any man and cuss him out and have no fear-you know
victor went the spoils-that was the way of the world. what I'm sayin'? Because I will go to blows. But when I
But Black Americans are a whole new animaL -we are get older, I'm not going to be able to do that, and with my
unique in the history of the world. Our situation is not temper-I'm going to have to start carrying a gun! And
comparable to what happened in the West Indies, in if I'm going to carry one, somebody's ass is going to be
Africa or in South Africa. shot! Because at the rate things are going ... I won't
• AJ: Your writing is giving voice to a stifled cul- tolerate this bullshit (contrary to some of my colleagues
ture- who have mellowed with age). I'm not among them-
• WC: If I had left L.A. for New York in 1969, I might yet. Maybe I have to go through some kind of biochemi-
be nationally well-known. But I had 2 kids so I had to cal change or menopause-I do not know! I'm trying to
stay here and make a living. I was invited to be a member come to terms with this, because I'm tired of dealing with
of the first black delegation that went to China, when racial incidents on a daily basis. Why can't I just leave my
China opened up to United States citizens, but I couldn't house, go shopping, do my thing and come home? Why
go - I had to work. do I always have to deal with some bullshit?
• AJ: So how did you manage to raise 2 kids and
survive?
• WC: I went without sleep! [laughs] I would go 2 or 3
days without sleep ... and without the assistance of
drugs, and I didn't drink coffee in those days, so it was song as we 're d
Al · ' we am
anCln, .,t
really hard. And most of the time I wasn't eating. I would fightin'! When blacks were rioting,
sleep on my break; I carried an alarm clock in my car and a song by Martha and the VandellaJ
would put it on the dashboard and sleep in the car until .,.In t h e
came on t h e r adi0: UD anCln
the alarm went off.
• V: But you managed to keep your writing spirit Streets!" I think that song was
alive- deliberately promoted by the
• WC: When I was a child I was reading all these government, during that long hot
tomes by these so-called "great" writers, and every now
summer, to distract blacks from
and then I would stu b my metaphorical toe on the word
"nigger" or "negress." And the hunger was always there taking care of serious business.
to present my world view, because my world view didn't
exist-it didn't even exist when Simone de Beauvoir
wrote The Secono Se;r. She wrote about women all right,
but what she wrote didn't apply to me.
• AJ: You felt that the Feminist movement omitted • AJ: What do you think the future will hold?
black culture? • WC: I don't know.
• WC: Well, I thought that it mainly belonged to rich • V: Don't you think things are getting worse?
white women who were not interested in my concerns - I • WC: Well-times are tough. Ifyou ask a young per-
saw that right off. What did I need to do-trade one son today, "What do you want to be when you grow up?"
oppressor for another? And they were using tactics that the assumption is: you're going to live long enough to
blacks had pioneered in the Civil Rights movement ... grow up; someone's not going to drop a bomb on you, or
that people from the Left had pioneered in the strong you're not going to be shot by a cop. I have a 12-year-old,
Labor Union movement in the United States. and what is his future going to be as a black male in this
• AJ: So ... what are some of your goals in your society when a third of the black men in the state of
writing? California have records, have served time, or are serving
• WC: For awhile I was writing for television, but time in jail. Now unemployment for black males is in
finally I decided to leave the world of popular culture. I excess of 60%. So what's the future? I don't know. All I
was on the staff of Day,} of Our LiVed, and they got the can do is try to arm him-give him psychological and
Emmy award; then the writers got the ax, and I never emotional armament, so he will be ready for whatever
went back - I disappeared and didn't keep in touch. And they throw at him!
what did I want to do? I decided I wanted to be a • AJ: You've got the warrior mentality-

125
 • WC: Because it's a war! Certainly we're being warred choose that language deliberately, because I'm talking
against. In my books of short stories, all the stories are about a downright nasty situation, which is: my experi-
about this constant self-conscious confrontation that hap- ence in literary workshops - how I was treated. I start
pens the minute you meet a black person. Because in out using the metaphor of a circle jerk, and it gets nastier
order to have any kind of constructive dialogue, there from there. So I'm deliberately using sexual imagery, but
has to be a context. And often that context is music, like I'm talking about writing poetry and my workshop expe-
jazz or rap music - which gets to be a drag! rience as a poet. The subject matter is not really sexual at
When I go somewhere like Atlanta, I get really excit- all-the imagery is!
ed because I am not used to seeing so many black When I moved to Hollywood, little did I know that it's
people - I start staring! I go into a restaurant and it's now a hardcore ghetto! When I was working in the
amazing; I go into the street and the police are black- entertainment business, my associates were afraid to come
everybody who's doing things is black. You don't have here. I live right on the borderline between Hancock
that experience in Southern California. So for me, when Park (wealthy homes with real mahogany and crystal
I go to D.C. or Philadelphia or even Chicago, I get and beautifully kept grounds), and a lot of drug activi-
really excited- ty - there's a heroin dealer down the street, and
• AJ: Because here you can never forget you're gangs. There are 80 different languages spoken here. To
black- the northeast is the Armenian population; the Korean
• WC: And it gets to be a chore. Every time you go to a population is just south; the Chinese and Japanese are
party, you're an i.J,flle just because you're there; I don't further; and there are a lot of Thai and Vietnamese ...
have to say a word. It's hard to have a good time! Even The ghettos have changed a lot. In South-Central
socializing on a minimal level gets to be a pain -why L.A. people are dying-sitting in their living rooms watch-
can't it just be a party?! But somebody always opens their ing TV and catching stray bullets. So there's no haven,
mouth and says something wrong, like, "Well, Wanda- no sanctity-I worry about my mother living there. Be-
your people have sure made a lot of progre,J.i, haven't cause the new school of gangsters are sociopaths-they
they?" And then I have to say, "Wait a minute ... " don't respect anybody. They don't care who you are:
• AJ: They say that now? "Oh, you a great poet?" -they don't give a fuck. If they
• WC: Oh yes-in fact, that happened a month ago, want your car and they got an U zi and a bicycle, they're
baby-here in the 1990s! Ignorance yet abounds ... gonna make you get out ofyour car and give it up. If they
And the other side of the coin is: I get tired of being think you have some money and you don't, they might
"Wanda the Explainer." I get tired of giving people an shoot you because they're mad 'cuz they took their time
education on racism-have my brain picked for free. I to hold you up and you ain't got nothin' -so you're dead
feel like saying, "Motherfucker, if you can't handle it- either way! There's no respect for anything.
tough!" [laughs] • AJ: Did there used to be?
• V: "Read my books!" • WC: Yes, when I was growing up, gangs had their
• AJ: Do you get hassled for being sexually ex- turf and they respected "civilians." They wouldn't shoot
plicit? a woman unless she did something-stepped on some-
• WC: [laughs] So far I haven't. If anybody's denied body's toes - she would have to do something to a gang-
me anything, I don't know about it. I've gotten my share ster to be the victim of gang activity. Now you don't have
of grant money, because not everything is a diatribe, and to do anything-just be in the wrong place at the wrong
not everything has four-letter words. I like communicat- time, and you're in trouble!
ing with mature minds, and you need a certain life expe- • AJ: How did that develop?
rience to really appreciate the bulk of my work. So I • WC: We can thank the federal government for put-
don't talk to a junior high school audience without giving ting drugs in the black community. These young kids
them a certain context. And I have enough work (I've know that if they work at MacDonalds -they know the
written a couple thousand poems and a hundred short American dream is a lie elf you work hard in this coun-
stories) to select from, so we can come to a real good try, you'll succeed!") because they saw their parents do
understanding without having to blow their lids! I don't that-and look what happened! They know that you
need to do that, nor am I interested in doing that, be- cannot count on a job being there for 25 years, and ifyou
cause I'm about communicating. I'm not about shock; if decide to retire, you cannot count on your retirement
any shock is present it's the shock of recognitwl1 ... or funds being available, because they may have all been
the shock of wzder,Jtanding which might just go with the lost on Wall Street, or turned into junk bonds, or other-
turf. But I'm not deliberately out to just shock people- wise been embezzled.
I'm not about being sensationalistic. • AJ: But that's been happening in the black com-
I wantfreeoom when I write, I want the freedom to use munity forever-
any kind of language -whatever I feel is appropriate to • WC: It's happening to the whole culture now! And it
get the point across. There's a piece in African Sleeping haJn't been in the black community all the time, because
SickneJJ where I use very pornographic images, blatantly before integration there was this big hope: that once the
sexual imagery-I'm just downright I1aJty ... but I doors opened, we would be allowed in! Now that hope is

124
gone - black people Icnoll' their lives are of no value. shoot up a liquor store!
Twelve-year-old black boys know that our government • V: There's a literary tradition celebrating (if that's
wants to fry them - boys my son's age. They want to put the right word) black criminals or black underworld
them in the electric chair or gas chamber or in prison for activity, by writers such as Melvin Tolson in the '30s,
life. up to Donald Goines. How do you feel about the
You see, black people were believers back then- Iceberg Slim books?
they're not anymore. They know the American dream is • WC: 1 got an autographed copy! I've got about 4
a crock of shit, because they saw what happened to their autographed books by him. 1 knew the real "T" -which
parents who were believers, who can't get insurance we will not discuss today! [laughs] As far as myself-
coverage (or when they do get insurance, they're charged well, 1 consider myself in the tradition of LVe.,tem Litera-
unfair rates because they live in a certain community). ture! [cackles evilly] W.E.B. DuBois is my man -he wrote
Now they know it's all jive and bullshit; they know their The SOIlU 0/ BIaclc Folic. And even though the language is a
lives have no value. And if their lives have no value, why little stiff and archaic, he's important because he identi-
should they value anyone else's lives? No matter what fied our context: that we live in 2 worlds simultaneously.
age they are-whether they're 5 or 105, whether they're Everything in the dominant culture is ours also; there's
a preacher or a pauper, if their lives have no value, no one this 2-way mirror effect: you can see their world, but
else's do either! somehow they can't see yourJ! So you have your world as
source materiaL but you also have access to theirs. And
they refuse to see your world because they consider their
world to be the only one of value.
Before integration there was So you're bicultural-and if you're smart enough,
you're bilingual. Because there's definitely a difference
this big hope: that once the
between writing with a black sensibility and what 1 call
doors opened, we would be writing "white." And if you want to succeed in this cul-
allowed in! Now that hope is ture, you learn how to write "white" -1 mean I've writ-
gone - black people know their ten ad copy and done other kinds of writing; 1 can write
about another poet's work without necessarily having to
lives are of no value.
be "Afrocentric" or "Afrocultural." I'm able to do that,
but 1 doubt if a white writer could read my work and
<: divorce himself from his culture - that would be an im-
possibility! Because he wouldn't be bicultural.
The generation before them believed that the white 1 can criticize a movie or piece of fiction because 1
boy would let them play the game. Now we all know that belong to both traditions. I'm affected by the literature 1
the white boy has no intentwn of letting us play the game. grew up with, which is: Edgar Allan Poe, Nathanael
And you cannot afford to wear gold chains around your West, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Evelyn Waugh, Somerset
neck if you're working at MacDonalds 12 hours a day. Maugham, Albert Camus, Andre Malraux, Chekhov ...
You know you will never make enough money to be these are all people 1 read, they're all my influences. 1
driving a Maserati or an Excalibur or live in the Holly- was privy to that literature; 1 read Plato, Aristotle, Kant,
wood Hills. And you will never be sitting in the front row Emerson - all of them. But 1 also listened to the blues; 1
at Trump Towers watching the Mike Tyson fight ifyou're also know who my culture is. 1 read Richard Wright,
working at MacDonalds. And these young guys know it. James Baldwin ... although 1 came to black literature
They also know that not everybody has the smarts to late because 1 didn't have access to it until I became an
get a PhD or the money to buy that education. And adult.
education is being undermined left and right; the ad- Ifyou ever want to read my biography, read The Street
vances made in the '60s are being reversed: blacks have a by Ann Petry-my biography's already been written. Do
higher dropout rate across the board. So on every level you know what it's like to discover that your biography
you look, where do you go? You can't even go to church was written the year you were born? You can probably
anymore-church used to be .1trong in the black commu- find this book in the library-she was one of the first
nity. The preacher could actually protect a young man black writers to be treated in this tokenistic fashion.
and keep him out of jail- he can't do that no more. • V: Still, she got her message across-
There's no more dialogue; the preacher can't protect • WC: 1 don't know-you'd have to ask her! [laughs] I
your ass anymore-hid ass is being shot up, too! He came across that book in my early twenties and it had a
doesn't get the respect from the community he used to very profound effect on me-as profound as listening to
get. Billie Holiday ... or Nina Simone or Etta James or
• AJ: Were you part of a church when you were John Coltrane or Jimi Hendrix.
growing up? • V: How would you context Iceberg Slim?
• we: Yes. But these young people don't respect the • WC: WelL he does not give up as much game as you
church anymore -they'll shoot it up just as soon as they'd think he's giving up! He doesn't really give you the full

125
"T" in his books. I used to go to young black guys' houses time constructively- I always have a book to read, or a
and that's the first thing I saw on the coffee table: a copy book to write in. If I'm in the bank standing in line, I
of Pimp. Well, I read Pimp, and if you've had experience have a notebook to write in. That's how I do it.
with pimps you know he ain't telling all the game. Ifyou • V: How do you regard your sense of humor?
follow that book you might end up dead somewhere • WC: My humor is a weapon. And as far as my taste
rather than as a successful pimp, because there's differ- goes-I went to see Good FeffaJ [ultraviolent gangster
ent kinds of pimp "macs" ... and he lays down one, but film] and I roared! To me that was one fucking funny
that's not necessarily the style you might use if you were movie - I thought it was hysterical. I was laughing; I was
going to go that way. trying to control myself because I knew I was probably
interfering with other people's experience-the audience
was being horrified [gasps] while I was going, "Hee hee
hee!" You know what I'm sayin'? So as far as my sense of
humor goes - for a long time people told me I didn't have
I have yet to kill anyone - I have one, or that I was too serious ... I think they just didn't
exhibited great re.1traint! appreciate or understand where I was coming from, or
how my sense of humor operated.
I love irony-that's my favorite. I love satire. And
when I laugh, I laugh loud, and long, and hard ... and
mean! Sometimes I can be a little sadistic: "Oh -did that
• v: But you do respect him? hurt? Want some more?!" I can sometimes be cruel, but
• wc: I like the man; I met him. And I know some then again - I haven't been spared. So if I can dish it out,
things about him that are not public knowledge, so- I can take it-and I don't dish out anything I can't
what can I say? I understand who he is-I have the take ...
proper conte.:1:t for him. Other people who read him The pop culture in America romanticizes every bloody
wouldn't necessarily respect him. Okay? So because of thing-when you live in a culture that can romanticize
that I like him. But I wouldn't consider him an influence an ax murderer-what can one say? Give me a break! To
on my work. And on my Top Ten list of black writers he me those are the true obscenities: movies like Haffouleen.
would not appear - neither would Chester Himes, whom I Because to me that's part of the dehumanization process;
don't like because of all of his shame; all his bootlicking; to me that's an extension of what racism does. Because
all his catering to white racist conceptions about blacks. you're dehumanizing these people so you can just kill
Cotton ComeJ to HarLem; Crazy Ki!! -awful stuff! Even one after the other: these are not human beings who are
though the language and some of the descriptions may be falling - they're props in a movie! So you can hack them
interesting, nevertheless all that hatred is there and it's up, you can butcher them, you can have all this disgust-
sick - from my point of view it's very unhealthy. And he ing shit happening on the screen, and it inureJ. So that
was not a great writer by anyone's standards-black, when you really see someone killed, it's not as exciting as
white, or otherwise. He was a mediocre writer; he did his they saw it on the movies. And usually not as gory, either.
job - probably the best he could. I never met the man so A girlfriend of mine killed her old man-she served
I couldn't assess that, but what he has left behind, I think about 3 years in jail and was let out. I remember talking
is awful. to her at the time, and she was absolutely amazed that
• V: But you don't feel that way about Iceberg Slim? what little she did could actually kill a person - there was
• WC: Well, I can see how some people could evaluate no loud music playing when he was shot! Whereas the
him that way, but I've had personal contact with the man movies build up all this sound and drama.
so . . . • AJ: Do you think you're angry?
• V: How did you discipline yourself to produce a • WC: If you're sane and you're perceptive, you have
couple thousand poems and a hundred short stories? no choice! Maybe the word "perceptive" has to be wed-
• WC: Just by .1heer/orce 0/ wi!!. It's harder now than it ded to the concept of anger, because you have to be
ever was; I've never been able to have the luxury of a perceptive to see what's reaffy going on - there are people
routine. There was a time when I could get up at 4 in the who have blinders on, and who don't see it.
morning and my kids were little, but I've never had a lot • AJ: Have you ever seen anyone die?
of "golden time" or peaceful time -it's always been catch- • WC: I have seen people in the process of dying, but I
as-catch-can. When you're poor you spend a lot of time haven't actually been present at the moment of death. I
standing in line and waiting for service-and it's usually haven't seen anyone killed, and I have yet to kill anyone.
not good service, either. Like getting your car fixed- I have exhibited great reJtraint! • • •
you're sitting in the shop cooLing your aJJ. So I use that

126
 Avital Ronell is an "ivory-tower terrorist" who has disseminated Jacques
Derrida's work on "deconstruction" throughout the United States in an
attempt to make his potentially subversive philosophy "mobilizable" ...
i.e., close the gap between theory and action. The first theorist to write a
philosophic essay on AIDS before it had scarcely been recognized (1983),
Avital has consistently investigated the implications of the emerging technology
of duhjection in articles on war, feminist philosophy, Walter Benjamin,
Nietzsche, and in her books Dictationd: On Haunted Writing; The Telephone
Book: Technology, Schizophrenia, Electric Speech; and Crack Ward: Literature/
Addiction/Mania.
The Telephone Book has been described as "the first political deconstruction
of technology, state terrorism, and schizophrenia. It offers a fresh reading of
the American and European addiction to technology in which the telephone
emerges as the crucial figure of this age ... her highly original, multifaceted
inquiry into the nature of communication in a technological age will excite
everyone who listens in." One of Avital's primary concerns is language
deviancy: "To try to limit language is always a kind of right-wing desire. The
idiom of Nixon was always, 'Let me be perfectly clear.' The idiom of any
totalitarian use of language is always under the sign of absolute clarity. Life
resists that kind of clarity-and it would be crushed by the attempt to pin it
down to a single meaning. Deviancy in language is something that doun't
say: obey me, follow orders, imitate me - rather: ruut me."
Avital Ronell was born in Prague and lived in Israel, New York, Berlin,
Paris, etc before moving to the Bay Area. Currently teaching at UC Berkeley,
she lists her principal interests as "technology, anti-racism, state torture,
and electronic culture." Her books have been published in France, Germany,
Japan and Spain. Recently she affirmed, "I think it's absolutely essential to
resist the catastrophic shutdown of knowledge in America. America's being
emptied of the duire to know. "

- - - - - -__~~r~

Part! to reactive, mimetic and regressive posturings. So the

problem is: bolV call you free yourJelj? How can you not be
• ANDREA JUNO: What's "wrong" with feminism reactive to what already exists as powerful and dominat-
today? ing? How can you avoid a reJJentimentaL politics? Is it
• AVITAL RONELL: It's dependent on what mall does. possible to have a feminism that is joyous, relentless,
Feminism today has aparaJituaL, secondary territoriality, outrageous, libidinally charged -
and if you respond to present conditions, you're subject • AJ: -humorous, ironic, with all the layers ofprivi-

177
 certain nutaphyJic.J onto
which she's already Im-
printed?
• AJ: For me, an ex-
ample of the flipside
would be Andrea Dwor-
kin. Though claiming to
be a women's liberation-
ist, she's perpetuating an
oppressive, status-quo
stereotype: that women
aren't supposed to be in-
terested in things like
pornography. Then ugli-
ness intrudes - that re-
pressive grimness that
one thinks of as not fun
or ironic-
• AR: WelL the ugliness
has to be taken seriously, I
think, because it's part ofa
whole politics of demask-
ing or denuding, and get-
ti ng to a Purilan core -Iike
the ban on makeup. All
that is part of a poLilir.! 0/
JeLj-preJentatwn which is
still ruled by a nutapbyJir.!
of self-presentation that
doesn't consider current
Photo: Bart Nagle thinking about: artifice,
technicity and so on ...
lege that the male status quo has always enjoyed- • AJ: I felt guilty even u..Jing the word "ugly"-
• AR: And do women have to be grim and humorless • AR: Yes-one of my mentors, the French feminist
in their response to an admittedly appalling situation? writer Helene Cixous, came to America years ago, and
This grimness isn't necessarily the most noble response; one of her first gestures (which horrified American fem-
it's often fed by values of resentment and anger- inists) was to point out what ugly shoes they wore. And
• AJ: -with the male constructing the question and this completely scandalized everyone! Helene is an in-
the female responding. credibly beautiful Egyptian lioness-she's splendidly
• AR: That's why I was interested in telephone an- dressed. Somehow the lines between pragmatic Ameri-
swering machines: how the feminine becomes a kind of can feminism (of course, there are other branches) and
answering machine to the call of the male metaphysical French theoretical feminism were drawn along eyeLiner
subject. So the first question is: Could there be a femi- marks: artifice, Jeduclwn (that a lot of French feminists still
nine intensity or force that would not be merely "subver- believe in; seduction as the power to create distance, to
sive"? Because subversion is a problem-it implies a dw-iJentify with one's self, to mask and play around, and
dependency on the program that is being critiqued-there- to perform different versions of oneself).
fore it's a paraJile of that program. Is there a way to The whole power of miming-which makeup has to do
produce a force or an intensity that isn't merely a reac- with-would be an interesting history to trace, because
tion (and a very bad and allergic reaction) to what w? In women were always considered creatures of the simula-
other words, could feminism be a pointer toward a/uture cra who were fake or false-therefore not "readable" or
o/juAice that isn't merely reproducing what w, with small reliable. So it's very odd for a European (with another
reversals? notion of history than Americans have) to note this de-
• AJ: These are central, key concerns. Historically, sire (which is a totally male desire) for absolute self-
revolutionaries seem to always end up being the new presentation without artifice, makeup, lying and
oppressors. How do you terminate this cycle? How do deception. Now certain philosophers revalorize deception
women stop being the flipside of the coin-and start a as a playful honoring oflife's multiplicity, rather than as a
whole new currency? subjugation of the lie to truth -
• AR: How can woman avoid being the flipside of a • AJ: In most ancient magical myths, behind the

128
masks there's so much power in the artifice- least could note that, "Every end is a beginning," and
• AR: I think that the artifice has often been on wom- that it's imperative (morally imperative in a new, intellec-
an's side. And the rejection and demonization of the arti- tually fanatical sense, because we're being throttled) to
fice is a very strange but basic gesture of American really think this through, to take time out. We're certain-
ideology. For me, feminism, as a perturbing interlfention ly beinggilfen time out-nothing is happening now!
into what l.J, has to be very suspicious of anything that • AJ: Right. We're facing death. All the philosophi-
coincides with American ideology. For example, this pro- cal foundations we live by have to be re-thought.
paganda about "sincerity" and "honesty" which the Right • AR: It's not to be understood (with the optimism of
propagates, is always in the service of the greatest .,erlfili- the Marxists) as a "crisis" -they always say, "A crl.Jl.J-
ty to the law, and docility. oh, something good will happen!"
• AJ: Of course, we should define our terms- • AJ: Or like a catbarJu/ the Freudians love you to
• AR: I'm just referring to the way "sincerity" and have a major catharsis so that you can then rebuild-
"honesty" are used in common circulation as American • AR: So it's not that kind of optimism -a crisis out of
values-this myth (or mystification) that things could be which a reversal will erupt. Nor is it of an apocalyptic
presented without frames, artifice, or interpretation. This nature where a revelation of truth will take place. This is
reflects an American nostalgia for an original state of why there's probably a great, pervasive depression, be-
things, that would be immune from copies ... cause there's no revelation forthcoming-thatJ the reve-
In "The Critique of Violence," Walter Benjamin said lation! There's no sudden revolution or reversal to be
something very curious: Only where lying and deception hoped for (nor necessarily to be desired).
would be promoted as a sign of the flourishing of art and Also, what we're calling "Woman" has to be rethought,
intersubjectivity, would there be a possibility for peace- because first of all it's something that feminism has per-
this is very enigmatic. The minute lying became a prob- haps 1lI1COIldCioll.Jly borrowed or left uninterrogated; it's a
lem of the law, and became affiliated with fraud, conflict hal2d-me-doolfl2 that was inherited through our phallic lega-
was inevitable- cy. Whenever anyone has tried to define "Woman," it has
• AJ: Co.J>yright as opposed to appropriation. If always been mystified and presented as a series of symp-
you're drawing something to look "real," you have to toms-as the Other to man. And this is something that
"lie," otherwise the perspective will appear distorted. has to be interpreted-if not rejected. We have to get
Here, a deeper truth can become manifest only when beyond this inheritance. An inheritance isn't something
one acknowledges there is no single "reality." you simply ignore-it's part of you, it's part of the tranJ-
• AR: [laughs] Reality is so complicated, yet our cul- ml.JJion JyJtem. But you have to negotiate with it and
ture wants to simplify it into one total (or totalitarian) recognize its history-where it comes from, what it im-
truth. A lot of political movements still hang onto a single poses on you, what kind of a frame it traps you into-
shred of truth as if it were "the" truth - this has to be
abandoned. That's why one rarely uses the word "revolu-
tion" anymore-or rather, "the revolution." I think we're
in a very mournful and depressed era right now, because Is it possible to have a feminism
all revolutions have disappointed us. The Third World, that is joyous, relentless,
for reasons we understand, can no longer offer a model
for revolution-
outrageous, libidinally charged?
• AJ: Neither can the Communist example-
• AR: We have to get back to the basic question of:
Can there be a community? A community that isn't based on
fusional desire, and fascistic projects or goals (and their • AJ: Like the label "gay," which is essentially use-
attendant dangers)? Even the so-called Sexual Revolu- less since there are so many variants: from a Republi-
tion largely ended up fucking with women. can gay to a lesbian separatist commune member. On
I think we're in a historical depression right now, one level we seem to need these labels to mobilize and
because everythif.lg has failed so entirely. This could be a bring about "real" political effects ... yet we must
great moment, because we have to re-think everything: avoid the dogmatic traps those labels impose-
"Okay, we're at absolutely a dead end -an absolutely • AR: You're exposing political and real effects ofsheer-
devadtating impasse." Which means that one has to think ly linglll.Jtic phenomena - the way certain words are appro-
one's way out of it. priated -their usage, circulation, and how the
One can no longer talk about simplistic polarities- appropriation is often a reappropriation, which is to say
we have to get beyond oppoJitionallogic. In Europe, World that very often a word that tries to pin down an identity
War II started with a left wing revolution (the Commu- comes from an AggreJJive Other. Very often this aggression
nist-Bolshevik one) and a right wing Nazi (National is accepted (with a bit of irony), and it goes through many
Socialist-or rather fadcl.Jt) one. Now, oppositions are permutations. So word wage is already something (if one
shifting (West vs. East to North vs. South) and certain is attentive to it) that is extremely politically inflected.
stand-offs have collapsed. If it's the end of history, we at That's why the High-Rising of Illiteracy is a very politi-

129
cal problem in America. People are no longer reading, no be without theory is simply in the grip of an older,
longer speaking, no longer existing In and {kf language, unacknowledged theory."
no longer enjoying the perl'er<flon that an adherence to • AR: Right. I was at an international conference on
language always promotes. They're not being liberated feminism in Tokyo. Now I believe in making trouble-if
into linguistic spaces that really do produce effects of self- women have any dUty at all, essentially it's to be a pain in
transformation. the ass. So I said: "Women have never invented any-
In the '60s, with one 'hand people were forming fists, thing." This shocked a lot of people. Then I said: "Wom-
but in the other hand there tended to be a book - prefera- en will never invent anything." Then I said, "Nor will
bly a philosophical book, whether it was Herbe"rt Mar- there ever be a woman genius." And suddenly it seemed
cuse's influence- like: Who WaJ /? Was this some Kabuki performance-
• AJ: Or Mao's Little Rei} Book, or Marx- was I just wearing the l71aJk of a woman but was really a
• AR: Right. There was a rapport to the "book" which man? What was speaking here-what kind of outrage
has now been broken. The fact that censorship right now was being committed? Then I said, "This is good IUlVJ!"
is so powerfully deployed on language and general in- Because this isn't something that women should aspire
scriptive usage is very important: there i.J a dUIre to Jhut to-concepts such as "genius" and "invention" always
down the freedom that language alwaYJ pOlntJ to. And it's a have a single male signatory. Genius is related to genitals.
freedom beyond "transcendental essences," beyond the Evelyn Fox Keller has shown how a woman's invention
repetition of traditional images, values or aspirations. in physics can't be received-there's no "admission policy"
Language always has a random element, a secret track or for the discovery that a woman might make.
rebellious provocation. Lan.9uage i.J not beholden to tradI- • AJ: You mean "woman" as the label rather than
tional truth l'alue. The fact that there's a growing dUIre for the biological woman, because you do have the exam-
illiteracy is also part of a general libidinal political shut- ple of Madame Curie-
down. And this is never mentioned (to my knowledge): • AR: She is the exception; the one self-poisoning sac-
the fact that the '60s was also a reading period with a reading rificial inventress-
li.Jt-actually, a nwnber of (and a proliferation of) reading • AJ: Right. She's even denied heroic status because
lists. There was a real power generation going on through she poisoned herself with her own radiation-
the raising of philosophical questions- • AR: Exactly, the excessive -who also (obviously)
worked with her husband...What I meant by the state-
ment that a woman can't be a genius is: some women still
aspire to be canonized or recognized as a genius. Recog-
nized by whom? Historically, genius has signified a priv-
The High-Rising of Illiteracy is ileged relation to "nature" involving male subjects. Yet
a very political problem in genius also tends to bear marks of Otherness - in Kant's
third Critique, genius is considered a monstrosity of na-
America. People are no longer
ture and a glorious aberration. Woman is already consid-
reading. There is a desire to ered kind of monstrous - but not in this privileged,
shut down the freedom that sheltered and sanctioned way that male genius has al-
language always points to. ways been regarded. In a genuine feminist intervention
what has to happen is a Will to Rupture -a Will to Break
with these phantasms and divinizations. Women don't
need a secondary and pious rapport to the possibility or
goal of being recognized as a genius -
• AJ: Which was keyed to the reading of books- • AJ: Male genius is typified by megalomaniacal
• AR: Now, even among so-called "intellectuals" there's denial, as in the case of a technology-worshipping
a real hesitancy to mobilize a more philosophical or nuclear power plant engineer who is incredibly un-
abstract idiom. There's an unfortunate distinction being emotional (Fatber KnowJ But), and proclaims: "No,
drawn between "practical" and "intellectual" there is no danger. We have logically worked all this
movements, and even though I don't trust intellectuals out." These men are worshipping technology as an
for one minute (whenever they mix into politics all my escape from their own feelingslbody/death. Since they
pJycho-alerts go on) nevertheless I don't think there's a identify with technology rather than humanity, the
possibility for true change without some sort of very madness is: they think they can escape their own
carefully drawn out Intellectlwl surge -despite the say- mortality-although the real madness is: the moment
ing, "Never trust an intellectual!" (or certainly, "a Ger- you separate from the body, you'll (Jie.
man with an idea!"). I don't know of any revolutionary • AR: That's true. The only "hope" for surviving your
instinct that hasn't been fed by so-called "abstract" no- deadline is a separation from the body-the Christians
tions. People who are distressed over what they call figured that one out by negotiating an "afterlife!"
abstractions or theorizations are too impatient- • AJ: The male has been constructed as the head!
• AJ: As Walter Benjamin said, "He who claims to mind, while woman is the body. . . the emotional,

130
mindless creature of instinct. • AJ: PMS provides a displacement from a linear,
• AR: I think that what's important now is to mobilize rational world. In some tribal cultures, during men-
bv"teria as a quasi-revolutionary force. Helene Cixous struation the women went off together into the huts;
i~sists it is an inherently revolutionary power: it inter- this was a time of spirituality, a time of going inward.
venes, breaks up continuities, produces gaps and creates Sometimes I feel that if I could just isolate myself for
horror - refusing conformity with ",bat i.,. Feminism could three days or so, then menstruation might actually be
benefit from an 4f1rl1latioll 4 hy"teria; hysteria as a re- sort of wonderful. But the world imposes its obliga-
sponse to what is unacceptable and intolerable in life ... tions on you, forcing you to remain "external," thus
as a response to eme':qenry. causing all the negatives: irritability, depression, etc-
Very often my women students report that when they • AR: \Vhat's interesting is that it p""he,' a remapping
start writing their PhD dissertations, their intimate friends of relations; it provides a sudden disruption of any con-
begin to create problems domestically. Usually someone tinuum. At Princeton my exams were scheduled for the
will say, "You're being hysterical!" And I say, "What's day I would suffer most severely from PMS. So I had to
wrong with that?" If you read Freud, you find that go in and ask for a change of schedule, and the professor
creativity and hysteria are linked. Hysteria is stimulat- was extremely nasty, ultra-conservative - in other words.
ing-it's not to be repressed. And it's funny that women a "gentleman." He asked why I was requesting a re-
have illternali::eo that ren,'or"hip 4 hy,lferia as though it scheduling and I replied, "I have medical reasons" (which
were an unwelcome disease ... whereas it should be was the conventional euphemism). Then he wanted to
",elcomeo as part of the work force. know the exact content of these so-called "medical rea-
• AJ: How many thousands of conversations have sons" and I was surprised - he's a married man; couldn't
there been where the woman know.; something's wrong he have guessed? But when I told him it was PMS (that
and asks the man to open up. When he doesn't re- I suffered enormously; felt almost deranged and wouldn't
spond, she starts to "nag." Then the man reproves her: have mastery over the material) he threw me out of his
"You're just being hysterical; I don't want to discuss office! Then a colleague said to me, "If/ell, are you going
this now." Here the male takes the stance of holding it to regulate your entire life around this? You've got to get
in, being autistic, and the woman, who is trying to used to these impersonal schedules."
elicit communication, becomes the scapegoat or is "hys-
tericized" with a pejorative evaluation ("What's wrong
with ber?"). Yet the truth of the matter is: it's the nuUl
who has the problem-and the woman takes the heat!
• AR: I1fale autwm is possibly one of the biggest prob- What we 're caII·lng ""vvToman " h as to
lems we face on every level of existence. And hysteria- be rethought ... it's a hand-me-
including PMS which has a very genuine rapport to time down that was inherited through
and to repetition in time, communicates a rapport to
death, an anxiety about Being. Let's digress for a mo-
our phallic legacy.
ment. Women's bodies take out mOllthly mortgage.;; wom-
en have a regular relation to blood. Men - I don't mean to
just produce binary oppositions, but this recent desire
for a "bloodless war" has shown us that men's horror of Then I realized that one's life was organized around
blood has got to be dealt with. Here again Walter Ben- this kind of disruption, and 1 tried to "read" this "unread-
jamin already predicted that the desire for a bloodless able" event that recurs monthly, yet each time arrives as a
war would take on all sorts of "divine" modalities, and ,JUrprt;" attack . .. which no calendrial mastery can ade-
now our high tech war is obviously a denial of body and quately deal with. So a politics that might articulate this
bloodshed. rapport to time and death would be very interesting ...
If someday I were to become Empress of the World (I • AJ: The book Fear oj Women by Lederer describes
am waiting for the call!) and could begin remaking the the relationship women have always had with birth,
world, I would start with the relation to time, to finitude, death and blood, and men's fear of the vagina denta-
and to the 6/000 which separates the sexes. I would inject ta-the fear of falling into some fluid, mucous-filled
men with a monthly relation to their own finitude. The death world. One counters this fear by keeping every-
PMS syndrome-the tension, the despair, the relation to thing clean and sterile. The author also shows how
death, and the suicidal recognitions that take place -are women have been regarded like those jrauveldt statues
not something I e.·mlt (I've been tortured by it all my life). of the beautiful woman whose back reveals decaying,
Yet at the same time I must say it's produced an under- worm-eaten pestilence. This book makes some won-
standing of Being that has ontological resonances - just derful points, although the last third is unreadable.
the way you fade out periodically, and the fact that there's • AR: Recently I read an essay in which Derrida asked
no refuge. There's a pain that's not strictly physicaL but the question: "What is e,cpo"ed in photography?" Then I
which never allows you to subtract the body from this read the Comml.''!liJller:' Report 011 Pornography (prepared
sudden abyssal opening and exposure to your limit'!. by Meese in 1988). Essentially it says that sex itself (as if

131
there were a purity, a stability, an identity of "sex") is not ka's CMtLe, where the castle (a metaphor for the Law)
a problem, no matter how it's performed or who con- sends out signals which are very important, but "K"
ducts it. The problem lies in the repre.Jentatwn of sexuality. doesn't understand what they mean.
Even Aegally sanctioned sex, once it passes into an in- We have to ask, "What's the status of an e;r:ampLe? How
scripted form, is immediately pornographic. So, what is can an example cover how you're supposed to behave in
being censored ... what is the problem here? every situation -take over the whole field? Is an exam-
ple primary or secondary?" And in the Report, the exam-
ple given is "procreative vaginal intercourse." Clearly,
this sexuality needs to be interrogated! Because sudden-
ly the law is saying that true sexuality is vaginocentriJ:-
True feminism has to investigate
the law has become a kind of JpecuLum entering the vaginal
& encompass biotechnics, area in order to legally sanction sexuality.
biogenetics, & all fields of • AJ: So tbat tells us what is legal? It's not even
technology. A true feminism will mentioning the phallus at this point-
stop being phobic about these • AR: No. This is all about protecting art, protecting
women (a "cause" which, as you know, came up again in
areas, because it's crucial that this Gulf War).
women be involved in • AJ: And this Meese Commission was using the
investigating, exploring and right wing fundamentalists aM the Andrea Dworkin-
shaping the technological type feminists to form a coalition - again, ostensibly to
"protect women."
realities of the future. • AR: Exactly. The whole question of protecting art is
one that shows the extent to which Woman has become
law's Jymptom. But I ask: Is woman an example, or the
central field according to which sexuality has to be ad-
The first question would be: what does a photograph justed?
expose? This is an ancient problem: the difference be- Again, according to this report, sex itself (as long a~
tween form and content. And on one level Kant already it's not publicly exposed) is absolutely outside the reach
liberated us from this-he said that that the content of a .of this law. The "damage" comes when it l<Jn't sex, but
"work of art" cannot have a determinate value (i.e., have repruentatwn - sex must not in any way be inscribed or
defined limits). It's only the form we should be attentive transcripted, and I quote: "The alleged harm:here there-
to, as we cannot judge the content. But what's happening_" fore is that as soon as sex is put on a screen or put in a
here l<J precisely a judgment of content. magazine, it changes its character, regardless of what
So, what does a photograph expose? It exposes, says variety of sex is portrayed." Now this is interesting,
Derrida, the relation to the law. What he means is that because you could then say to them: "So homosexual sex
every photo poses itself as this question: Are u:e aLlowed to in ltJelj is okay, but if it's depicted, then it changes its
view what l<J being e;-CpOJed? character and it's not."
• AJ: This brings up the question of ... take the
example of being gay. In Yemen, sleeping with people
of the same sex is very common; both the men and
women do this (as long as they don't do it in the street
and frighten the horses and children). Yet on another
Every photo poses itself as
level there is oppression of women and homosexuals, this question: Are we allowed
grounded in very archaic customs. Also, before the to view what iJ being expOtfed?
labeling that emerged in the '60s in America, two
"women friends" or "bachelors" could live together
and not be subject to condemnation for their sexuali-
ty-yet their behavior was technically illegal and sub-
ject to repression. In both instances, society hadn't yet • AJ: Essentially, their definition of sex is strictly
taken the "photograph" (or been labeled)-the repre- heterosexual-
sentation hadn't been concretized. • AR: Yes, but they're not saying that-this Report is
• AR: This COmml<JdWnerJ Report is very smart on this from 1988 and they don't yet know that word! I continue
point: it says that the law is sending out "signals" about the quote: " ... And to the extent that the character of
how you're dUppOJed to behave; it's just sending out sex as public rather than private is the consequence here,
signals about what in censorship is nece.JJary, and what it then that, to many, would constitute a harm."
can let slide. It's not going to deliver a discourse, because Here I ask, What constitutes private and public spheres
if it were to take that risk it would find itself in a contra- with guaranteed borders? If the police intervene in the
dictory situation. This is like the paranoid world of Kaf- bedroom of a gay couple, then it's not clear when an

132
image or an utterance ceases being private and becomes there's a Garden of Eden where sex exists "naturally"
public. So the difference between private and public has (as long as we don't inscribe it or take pictures of it)-
to be reflected upon. If the law says that the problem is • AR: And that's a very dangerous phantasm: that pure
the representation in pubLic-not the act itself- de.Y itJe(f is a possibility, prior to any interference of
• AJ: In the case of 2 Live Crew who were acquitted language. Any reader of Freud would realize that these
of obscenity charges, ultimately it was a matter of: are pre-OedipalfantaJiu
"We don't mind if you have your black culture, as long
as you don't talk about it ... or put out a record!"
• AR: Also, there's a whole logic of contagion involved:
you might expose people to something that contaminate.J
bye;mmple. Here we have the problem of mimesis: art is
What's important now is to
mimetic-it has to do with an imitation of reality, and mobilize by.Jteria-it's an
even though art is fiction, doesn't it produce the deJire to inherently revolutionary power
imitate? So it would be incumbent upon the law to think that intervenes, breaks up
about mimesis and imitation -whatJ imitating what?
continuities, produces gaps and
One of the destabilizers of art's private integrity is
democratic reductionism to an average person. Because creates horror - refusing
the Report refers to the "average person" and "communi- conformity with what i.:J.
ty standards," and in the name of the average person
(which art has never claimed to care much about), the
law has permitted itself to pornographize art. In reality this
shows a lot of Jcorn for the average person. The average
person and community standards - really, these legalfic- • AJ: We have to constantly remind ourselves that
twnJ are unacceptabLe vaLueJ for art. Right now I have to the Nazi fascists were heavily into the "nature" myth-
say that I don't support a "culture of art." But I have to the myth of an "innocent" world, and that they also
protest this situation in which we find ourself defending burned books. All this goes hand-in-hand with the
rights that should have been set in stone years ago. It is fear of language, fear of artifice-
necessary to take sides with full clarity. f • AR: Hitler said that "A true German woman does
One great ancestor of this whole censorship delirium not wear makeup" -i.e., does not "inscribe" herself
was the example of William Burroughs' Naked Lunch, with makeup. The woman is supposed to be part of this
which of course was initially censored. Before that, there ~natural" world that hasn't been interfered with by cos-
was James Joyce's ULyJJeJ. Here, the judge had let all his mopolitan or "material" (i.e., Jewish) influences. His-
friends who were upright gentlemen read ULyJJeJ in the 'torically, the Jews have always been known as the people
privacy of their own bedrooms, and these were men (he of the book . ..
wrote) who were not prone to sexual arousal in arbitrary • AJ: We need to examine how the uncritical ideali-
and unacceptable ways. It was stunning when the judge zation of "nature" leads to the fascistic. Because to
proved in his argument that James Joyce had produced even think there is a world without language is delu-
a novel which had nothing to do with sexual arousal, but sionary-we create our world by language, literally.
which produced nausea-it only made you want to throw • AR: Allusions to "nature" are always secondary and
up! Then the judge declared that ULYJJe.J was hereby a projection backwards-usually a very dangerous pro-
admitted into the United States of America. This was jection. All Edenic projections of plenitude have proven
such a sublimely grotesque moment. dangerous.
But, I submit the law forgot how closely disgust and • AJ: The hippies had a reverence for the "natural";
desire are linked! Bataille showed that a woman's geni- they had that idea of "Let's go back to the earth" -
tals are frightening because they have the smell of death • AR: There are still hippies in Berkeley, of course,
and all sorts of disgust that sexuality is linked to. But but they're largely scorned for their failure. Some of the
anyway, this ULyJJeJ case revealed a charming but very '60s hippie initiatives still command some respect,
disturbing form of legalization. Because one can imagine but . . .
a society in which something that makes you want to • AJ: There were some wonderful things that hap-
throw up would not be considered legal. It's as if UlyJJeJ pened, too: the courage, the enthusiasm, the righteous-
were defended with an insurance policy, in that the law ness to change the world.
implemented a JeLf-inJtaLLatwn of censorship. Because if • AR: One of the major problems with the hippie move-
ULyJJe.J produces these horrible effects, then it has al- ment is: it couLJn't reillJcrwe Love. Their concept of "love"
ready censored any Jel1<fllllL rapport to this book. Howev- still reverted to a Christian communion of love that still
er, the law never questions what reading is, what relation had a "transcendental" essence, and maybe that was their
we have to reading, nor what arollJaL is . . . failure. As a matter of fact, it could be that historically
• AJ: This relates to the problem of the "natural" love is no longer possible. In the Western world love has
and the "artificial." The implication is that somewhere always involved the promise of eternity conjuncting with

IT}
 derived some major pit-
falls; the pitfalls of many
historical revolutions de-
rive from that idea of
"nature."
• AR: Feminism as a
force or intensity has to
disrupt all officially chart-
ed maps -it calls for the
remapping of relationships.
Everything has to be called
into question, including
the possibility oflove. This
is a big, ambitious, crucial
project that breaks with
what is traditional or ossi-
fied. Therefore it can't
harken back to a "natu-
ral" state which you've
been rightly criticizing as
a very dangerous image,
fantasy, or nostalgia.
Just to get back, I think
th~t the failure of the hip-
pies is still something that
we have to interrogate-
because something did col-
lapse with their collapse.
And I don't know what it
is. I have no desire to oi-
villw them in any way. but
through their arising some-
thing was seen to be pOdJi-
Me. They did articulate a
certain limit (or lack there-
of) of social being, and a
certain democratic spread-
ing of what they called
"love." They demonstrat-
ed a certain opening of
the libidinal economy
(and all that implies), and
a breakdown in cLaJJ
differences. Their adher-
Photo: Nina Glaser ence to Marcuse and
Hannah Arendt and even
terrestrial being. The hippies tried to render "love" trans- a certain reading of Heidegger and Freud was very
parent-wasn't that what they promised? And wasn't interesting, too.
that the word they destroyed, finally? What got busted there needs to be understood, too,
Also, they probably didn't take into account narcw- because now the grim reality of drug wars, the war on
,,1..11/1, which as a very violent reaction is what created art, the war'on the homeless, and the war on the sick is
things like the '80s "Me Generation" - this re-narcissiza- somehow the legacy of that failure. We don't have to
tion of the poLity. That's why I suspect that the hippie remind ourselves that Reagan was the governor of Cali-
generation's failure was to embrace this Christian com- fornia at that moment, and that there's some sort of
munion of love which hadn't yet been mediated by Ni- belated relation to that repressed "revolution" that is still
etzsche and the Will to Power! being worked out by the unoeao presidents that we're
• AJ: To recap another point: it's in the idea of dealing with now ... who are completely struggling
"nature" and "woman as nature" where feminism has with phantom"~.

154
 • AJ: I often think about the failures and the prom- • AR: Absolutely. Did you notice that this censorship
ises of the '60s - so much was unleashed that we have business is totally out of synch with the sexual politics of
to analyze. It's hard to get the whole picture, and see the nation -it seems to have started when the "TeleChris-
the forest from the trees. The hippies were exploring tians" discovered their own sexuality-
new frontiers and territories with no language struc- • AJ: Rather belatedly, long after the '60s-
ture. Drugs, Sex and Rock'n'Roll are perfect examples • AR: Remember when Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker
of an original intention to re-spark the nervous sys- and all the others were found to have these Jecret Je."r:uall-
tem - to shock new neural nets or pathways; new trains tl.eJ? They were forced to denounce themselves, and as a
of thought through altered states. The lack of analytic self-defense tactic suddenly they lashed out against art!
faculties ("Hey man, don't talk so much, let's just Basically they shouted, "Where's the sexuality?" and
listen to the music") resulted in communion (drugs, then started locating it elJerywhere.
sex, music) without community. And that was a major
failure.
If the Washoe Indians participate in a peyote ritual,
it's to provide an experience of "communion" to bind
the community together in a collective search for truths, If someday I were to become
insights, new language or poetry, and myths to inte- Empress of the World (I am
grate into the culture. But in the society of alienation waiting for the call!) and could
that is America, if you take a drug, you get further and
further away from the community, because this is not
begin remaking the world, I would
a communal journey with a shared language. The drug start with the relation to time, to
experimentor who becomes an addict doesn't find com- finitude, and to the blooiJ which
munion or enlightenment, but becomes sicker and more separates the sexes. I would inject
alienated from the community - stealing from friends,
etc. So - how do you envision New Worlds which stim-
men with a monthly relation to
ulate fresh inner perspectives? The promise of the '60s their own finitude.
was to remap such a frontier community, but unfortu-
nately the remappers came burdened down with the
baggage of our linear-brained, alienated mind-set-
• AR: In Cracle WarJ: Literature, AdJu:tWIl, alld Mallia, I
was dealing with this promise of a sheer Otherness, a In the meantime we had punked out. It had been years
new frontier that didn't have an idiom yet. I dealt with since the '60s; we were no longer into sexuality-AIDS
the War on Drugs as a War on Creatures of the Simula- had been acknowledged, etc. We (meaning people who
crum - I started writing it before there was a War on Art. are "creative," on the "cutting edge" and all that bullshit)
And I argued that these are co-related; that there can't be were completely divested from the notion of sexuality as
a War on Drugs without a War on Art and in fact a War that privileged force which could create the "revolution"
on every conceivable type ofju:twllai deJIre- and other new economies. Now, years later, these Chris-
• AJ: A war on dreams, a war on the imagination- tians have discovered their own transgressions-now
• AR: - on the productivity of the unconscious. I would that we're no longer in an Age of Transgression. So
say America's waging a War on the Unconscious ... be what's weird about all of this recent censorship hysteria
it South America, or wherever. is that it's totally out of synch-they're out of touch!
• AJ: A war on whatever the construction of the Meanwhile we're "post-punk," cool and calm about sex-
"Body" is. This War on Drugs is so reprehensible uality-
because it's so hypocritical- • AJ: To us sexuality is no big deal, it's a vital part of
• AR: I was reading a German who wrote, "Leave it to life-so what? Whereas to a preacher like Swaggart,
the Americans, the true nihilists, to call it 'intoxicant', sex is still really "filthy" -something to be hidden and
because it always has the 'toxic' prejudice in it. Why denied. And it's this denial which creates true perver-
can't they have a more pleasant, ecstatically inflected sion - his relations with a prostitute were pathetic.
word?" In America there's always that emphasis on the Apparently he didn't even penetrate her; he would
"clean" -it's a very obsessional, neurotic culture. That's hire her to dress really sexy - but mostly he got his
why it always wants to clean the borders and frontiers rocks off yelling and swearing at her. That's so sick-
and demarcate them clearly- • AR: These exhibitionist Christians love to exhibit
• AJ: Another Either/Or dualism: America has this their repressed "love." They're totally promiscuous (be-
shadow world of alcoholics, drug addicts, crack us- cause they love everyolle!) yet they repress their sexuality.
ers - and fundamentalist Christian teetotalers who • AJ: Have you ever watched those fundamentalist
have repressed every impulse of the body. These are Christian TV broadcasts? Their confessional format is
two sides of the same coin-one that's in denial of the similar to that of AA meetings. All these Christians
body. confess in livid detail: "I was a drug addict, child

155
molester, pervert ... until I found God." If you watch • AJ: Because this reinforces the myth of the artist
this program you'll get an amazing dose of titillation as some inspired "genius" who doesn't even work-
with incredible detailing. like a priest or something-
• AR: I have a friend who observed, "What could be • AR: That's a crucial part of the mystification ...
more pornographic than a crucifix?" Here you have this You were saying that the "Either/Or" is a simplistic
virgin body that is totally S&M'd, wounded, bloody, structure. WelL what we can't tolerate these days is the
crushed against a restraint and naked in pure offering- Both/And structure: a totally incflbJil'e movement.
in a sacrificial ceremonial. What's odd is the widespread • AJ: In all of our would-be "revolutionary" move-
non-recognition of the completely S&M culture that Chris- ments, there are all these exclusionary distinctions
tianity has always embodied (even if the Protestant ver- made. For example, a lot of women who should be
sion is more austere and tries to get away from the feminists aren't - because of Either/Or constraints such
voluptuousness of the suffering, self-flagellation and de- as the notion that if you're a true feminist, you can't
tailing of the sacrificial idiom, the purity of the pain that wear makeup-
Catholicism insists upon). Nonetheless, at some point • AR: Absolutely. We were talking the other day about
one has to confront its S&M origins, or at least try to the astonishing lack of narcissism of our bOdy politic, m
understand the relationship of S&M to Christianity- that it thinks it could dispense with art-
• AJ: Also, colonialism and imperialism has always • AJ: Lack of narcissism?
been the legacy of Christian do-gooders; master-slave • AR: Well, for example, the French think it's crucial
relationships and political oppression have always fol- to their future that they be monumentalized by artistic
lowed the initial, "friendly" intrusions of the so-called innovation. In fact, every government in Europe wants
" .. ."-
miSSionarIeS to monopolize the best artists, in order to celebrate itself
• AR: In this censorship controversy, both sides are and constitute itself as an art work or a remnant of some
active in the same"clean-up" project of art. Those de- sort of artistic insight. I was surprised to discover that
fending art from the position of Freedom of Expression America didn't feel that need. And I still don't know how
are redlAing the excremental, improper, dirty, disgusting to interpret this, unless there was a "transference of
neceJJitieJ of artistic expression. I think a lot of this is a accounts" from art into technology. Maybe high tech is,
question of Fame: What are the limits of art? What are for Americans, an art form -like Livermore Lab, Bio-
the formal restrictions? What constitutes art? What is sphere II, and the fighter jets that airmen often paint and
obscene? All these are controversies over property m/lleJ, name. Perhaps America has gone back to the very ori-
it seems to me, or "propriety." gins of art (which were in the technf or the artifice) by
Basically, all cultures of art have depended on a "reli- moving into technology-
gious" thematic of art aJ a tranJcendental eJdence. They tend
toward an aestheticized politics which historically we
associate with the Nazi state. This has always been dan-
gerous as it involves a politics of exclusion, a politics of Feminism as a force or intensity
"purity" following the logic of "natural" endowment, "nat- has to disrupt all officially charted
ural" production of a national essence-
• AJ: Basically Hitler was an artist with a grand
maps"- it calls for the remapping of
scheme for all of society- relationships. Everything has to be
• AR: So we should be infinitely suspicious of any called into question, including the
"culture of art," because the most politically dangerous possibility of love.
events have arguably always gone under the name of art
and not politics.
• AJ: But let's define "art" -again, here's this prob-
lem of lumping together many different meanings into
one limited word- • AJ: I've often thought that - besides in art, real
• AR: That's true: this has to be differentiated. One creativity and imagination is being expressed in sci-
needs a situation in which one can, with infinite pa- ence. Physicists and other scientists are truly reinter-
tience and suspicion, examine each word and its nuanc- preting how we view the world-
es, and locate the contested sites of subjectivity, of • AR: One of France's greatest philosophers, Jean-
creativity-as we've been trying to do. For example, one Luc Nancy, just underwent a heart transplant (and it's
must understand that art is the last "transcendental working). I saw him in France and our visit "scripted"
essence" related to creation. Also, art still embodies a like De Quincey's "The Last Days of Immanuel Kant" -
notion ofwork which is not common labor - it belongs to a not that I feel I'm Thomas De Quincey. Anyway, I visit-
different kind of economy. That's why the grantmg ed him on August 2nd: the day Iraq went into Kuwait
body which grants the gift that allows the artistic "ge- and the U.S. started its high tech fabulations. Hence, the
nius" to produce an economy that breaks the larger coincidence in my life of what is too quickly called "good"
economy, is so crucial- and "bad" technology: the same time a friend got a new

136
heart, George Bush set the mortality timer for the Iraqi still want to be indUJe this signified art-
people. Due to the technology behind both the "surgical" • AJ: Now there's a kind of postmodernist move-
strikes and medical science, my friend's body is accepting ment that takes very visceral, "unaesthetic" things
this new and highly-philosophically-invested organ. It's from TV or "trash" culture (like a Jim Thompson
amazing-apparently they find this to be among the novel) and incorporates them into painting, or what-
ea..,ledt of transplants. Once completely drained, dilapi- ever. And maybe it's bullshit for the most part, but at
dated, exhausted and visibly expiring, he's now (and I least it's inspiring people to buck the status quo and to
am fervently hoping this is not another empty promise) reevaluate aesthetic fascism.
incorporating a youthful, vigorous heart.
I was feeling personally heartbroken and wound-
ed ... and when Jean-Luc had this transplant, I sud-
denly thought, "Okay, I'm going to have a transplant,
I believe in making
and myoid, wounded heart is going to be exchanged at
the same time." I don't know what kind of metaphorical trouble -- if women have
imperative I forced upon myself- I'm not saying that my any dUty at all, essentially
new heart is absolutely resistant to new woundings or it's to be a pain in the ass!
inscriptions, but I really got the sense that things are
reneu'able-and I borrowed the possibility of renovation
from a technological structure.
• AJ: For me, a priority is the rethinking of the
body away from an outdated Luddite, Thoreau-ean I've always hated institutionalized "art culture," yet
mythology which only conceives of technology as hos- when this censorship hysteria began, I realized that
tile to "nature." In the future our bodies will increas- grant-giving institutions like the NEA did spawn art
ingly interface with cyborg technology. And it's this galleries like the Kitchen in New York which put on
same Luddite mentality which only fifty years ago the Annie Sprinkle performance that Jesse Helms
refused to consider the photograph as art. I think of attacked. And these galleries were manned by illegiti-
Walter Benjamin's "The Work of Art in the Age of mate offspring of the Academy-what I call "Trojan
Mechanical Reproduction" and wonder about all the horses" -who simply exercised the values that society
implications of the photograph-was the photograph purports to uphold, such as literal "freedom of expres-
"art"? sion." These are the unanticipated products of a white
• AR: In the case of Mapplethorpe, it's as if he (or his male imperialist culture-the suburban '50s society
legacy) were clinging to membership in the art world. had no idea it was producing a generation which would
I've heard people lecture on his work, and they never let reject its own values.
go of the word "art." Yet if that legacy would let go, a • AR: What I think we're agreeing upon is the Both/
much more radical impulse could be communicated. And structure -incLwive movement. This kind of think-
• AJ: Society does not want to eliminate pornogra- ing is both low-tech (reproducing, copying things) and
phy. They want to keep it illegal, just like they keep very high-tech in terms of analytical, laser-like interven-
prostitutes in the shadow world of crinllnals who can tions. Certainly our communication has to be more intri-
be controlled and whom they can profit from. And it's cately configured; the people who have said, "Let me be
the status quo who are the johns. If they raise a fuss perfectly clear" [Nixon] or ''I'm telling a transparent and
now, it's just to redirect the flow of money in their evident truth," have always been the worst types of pow-
direction. er brokers ...
If Mapplethorpe photos can just be clearly labeled You mentioned playing with language. The history of
"homosexual" or "S&M" and put into this "box," then the pun is very interesting in this regard, because the pun
there's no transgression; they cease being an issue. was always considered "loose" or "on the loose": double-
And the artists themselves aren't brave enough to ask, meaning, double-faced, and somehow always anally at-
"What's wrong with pornography?" They just want to tached in the figurations and metaphorics that attended
say, "No, this is art!" the pun. So the desire to repress double meanings is very
• AR: Exactly - it's their vanity that's directing the fight. interesting ... and the promise (or threat) of one total-
Because if they'd say, "Art? - I don't want to have any- izing or totalitarian meaning is a very serious one. You're
thing to do with art! This is a protut against all art; against absolutely right to want a society that could play with
all the appropriations in the West that art has meant-" language-there's something radically attractive about
• AJ: Yes; aesthetics themselves are a form of elit- that; something that equally draws all sorts of repressive
ism-there's this horrible fascism of aesthetics; about measures to itself. So the pun has always been slightly
what is artistic and what isn't. feminized, homosexualized, having to do with anal eroti-
• AR: These protesting artists are all somehow a little cism, being two-faced ...
stupidly beholden to some paternaL metaphor that legis- • AJ: This brings to mind our dualistic Judeo-Chris-
lates what constitutes "art" and what doesn't. And they tian structure of GodlDevil, where God is all good and

157
the Devil is all bad. In many other cultures where • AJ: And therefore it can never embrace a revolu-
punning and wordplay predominate, there is a more tion for all of us.
integrated complexity of GodfDevil, such as the trick- • AR: One of the Japanese women at that conference
ster/coyote in American Indian mythology. In our so- said to me, "How can your abstract thinking ever lead to
ciety, what did the Devil become?-pure evil, to be revolution?" And I replied, ''I'm very sympathetic with
cast out-not to be integrated. So what you're saying your question - because I have to ask my,'elf that every
about the pun is perfect, because we threw out the morning!" But in fact the most "abstract" notions are
trickster (as a creative integrated force) who speaks responsible for the most virulent and recurrent persecu-
truth in roundabout, playful terms- tions. The causes, motivations and justifications behind
• AR: I tend to be associated with writing which is apartheid, the persecution of women, blacks, minorities
considered "morally wanting" because it indulges in word- and so forth is in the first place ab,llmctly JetermineJ. And
play. Recently I was routed through a whole discussion that continues to legitimate these aggressions-
of "language abuse" (a strange displacement of "child • AJ: What's more abstract than saying what a
abuse") as if language were something that one shouldn't "black" person or a "woman" really is?
push -that has something pernuiow to do with desire. So • AR: All of these distinctions are based on Western
there's a whole moral imperative not to play around ill metaphysics -therefore derived from so-called "abstract"
and with language, and to be "straightforward" ... to be systems of thought. So, a housewife who feels particular-
expressive in the most simple (or rather, simplistic) ways ly depressed and wonders what is wrong with her is
without artifice or rhetoric. facing the question of theori.::ing het" preJicament. Precisely
because we haven't found the answer and are only barely
beginning to pose the question, we can't ignore the fact
that this must have been institutionalized in sery rigor-
What could be more pornographic ous, systematic types of Ji.'clII~/il'e oppre..',fioll.
• AJ: Absolutely. And the more one delves into and
than a crucifix? Here you have this Ji<Jcu.JJe.J the underlying "abstract" assumptions that
virgin body that is totally S&M'd, have oppressed life, the more one can map out strate-
wounded, bloody, crushed against gies of what to do in reality.
a restraint and naked in pure • AR: I'm very often at odds with institutional femi-
nists (or with institutionalized /Orl/"l.! of feminism) be-
offering, in a sacrificial cause feminism as it's practiced (and it is diverse, yielding
ceremonial. What's odd is the incredible knowledge, information and data) hasn't yet
widespread non-recognition of the in the university fundamentally perturbeJ the JyJtem. In
completely S&M culture that practical terms it's not providing any nell' guidance, any
serious optimistic abundant "revolutionary" hope. It's
Christianity has always embodied. just relocating the Woman as the specular mirror image
of the Man. But considering the way neo-conservatives
are attacking tenured radicals, deconstruction and femi-
nism, at least feminism is part of a felt provocatio/l to the
There is such a denial of the rhetoricity or the inscrip- right. Maybe this is one of those viruses that travel an as-
tion of what is said or done-as we saw in the recent yet unmapped trajectory.
censorship hysteria. A so-called "honest" language would In practical terms, feminism has to be granted regions
involve (and you objected to the American abuse of the beyond legal cliches -equality, to my way of thinking, i.f
word "honesty") the negation of language." on-decep- not enough. It's just not that desirable - it's a computation,
tive"language would have to give up figurality-in other it means "one equals one." I don't think that humanity
words, deny its dimension of play and experimentation. I can be computed in such an equation. The question that
suppose we are returning in a circular way (how Joy- might be raised is, "What JoeJ a liberateJ "'Olllan want?" And
cean!) to questions of makeup, artifice. I feel that, for example, my female colleagues tend to
• AJ: So - how does one formulate a politics of reproduce forms of autonomy and self-expression that
revolutionary feminism? Because feminism has are merely the counterpart-therefore parasitic-of"phal-
to change-it can't be exclusionary to race, men, lic" literature. They simply reverse certain values with-
whatever . . . out fundamentally Ji.Jplacing them and perturbing the
• AR: By choosing woman as its fully-formed subject systems of power.
it's always had to receive reproaches of being partial and • AJ: That's a Male Question, based on the a priori
therefore not being about justice. f(femil1l;f/17 1./ anything it assumption that you're the "Other." The male's not
haJ to be a call-and a rigorOIM call-forjiMtue. As long as it asking, "What does a liberated man want?" We need to
excludes certain people, animals and even plants (I am reformulate the question, because what i<J necessary to
thinking of Hegel's work on plant-life in the Phenomenolo- ask, is: "What does the liberated human want on this
gy), it's not delivering its promise- planet ... if we're to survive ... and even evolve?"

138
 Photo: Nina Glaser

that we can't even represent what justice i.J?

• AJ: In the '70s, Foucault, in the bookPowerlKnowL-
• AJ: \Vhy have all "revolutions" failed? eoge, was telling a group of Maoists that the very
• AR: We've already said that traditional revolutions structure of the court system already defeated the
haven't worked -even the sexual revolution. And to do notion of justice. And the Maoists countered, "But the
diagnostics, one has to enter areas that are not covered Chinese Revolution was just!" Well, we know in retro-
by the insurance of "political correctness." One has to spect that China hardly became a society of justice-
posit theories that appear unacceptable or problematic- just look at Tienanmen Square! \Vhat are some
it takes the courage of indecency to figure out why things examples that will lllake this idea of justice come
have been so massively defeated. Why is it that "revolu- alive?
tion" as a signifier has seemingly been obsolesced? Let's • AR: Of course there are examples of heroic justice, of
review what has gone wrong, because it's very hard to selfless care. Nevertheless, justice does not have a recog-
admit: "Look, it ha.m't worked-we've lost. Justice has nizable history. Does that mean that justice cannot take
lost." place? That's possible-in Hegel's sense of history,
Now what about "justice"? Ju.Jtice dON not have a recog- progrNJ, for example, is always brought about by war.
nizable hi.Jtory. We can't even point to a moment in history War is the midwife to history. Here war had this meaning
and say, "This is an exemplary or 'just' moment (or and value ascribed to it where violence i.J recuperated by
country or figure)." In fact, the figures of justice we have reMon. Now if our concern (whether it goes under the
are rather frightful: King Solomon whose justice was name of "feminism," "leftism," or whatever) is indeed to
instantaneous, prepared to cut the body of a child in bring about justice, we need to think about where to
half ... Justice always has involved the reiteration of locate it, what it might mean, what values it mobilizes,
this cruel cut. and what kind of violence in history it has depended
The problem is, first of all, to try to understand justice. upon so far.
Yet if we ask, "What is justice?" we find it is already • AJ: I think people mostly think in terInS of what is
contradictory-doesn't it always imply brutality, war, or "unjust."
a decisive "cut" (as in the case of King Solomon)? If • AR: And most utopian societies proposed in litera-
"revolution" is that which i.J to bring aboutju.Jtice, why is it ture or non-fiction have been based on an e.r:cLu.Jionary

139
operation . .. some regulative mechanism dependent on of their greatest art works - the way forms of alienation
a powerful sense of what cannot take place in that "post- have been translated and inscribed on the American
political" space. Such utopias may not be based on justice body.
but on a naive notion of pleasure -or plenitude, where • AJ: Actually, I think the people in our MOdern
capital would be.1o present that it wouldn't be a problem. Primitivu book, who play with piercings and tattoos,
A utopia might even involve a kind of tran.Jcendental capi- were trying to form a community agairut the alien-
talism, for all we know. Different utopias have made ation.
claims for pleaJure and a cessation of agony. But they've • AR: There's a Logic 0/ the vaccine at work here: If soci-
only rarely made their goaljuAice. ety appropriates alienation as something to be "read
Now to get more down (or up) to earth: what about about," then the very condition of alienation itself (which
the prospects for revolution? Recently Eastern Airlines could mobilize a widespread powerful reaction to it) is
cut health care for the families of workers (while of somehow, by this displacement, neutralized through an
course the top brass are still riding around in limou- ane.1theti.zed acknowLedgment of its existence. Modern Primi-
sines.) Some employees have wives or husbands with tive.1 involved a playing with forms of alienation and a
cancer who need expensive treatment. And when inter- radical embrace of artifice by which the body might be
viewed, these workers said, "WelL I guess we'll have to regained, rather than remaining in existential districts of
bite the buLlet" -in other words, let their spouses die! And di.1avowaL.
I was shocked and perplexed by this dociLe response ... • AJ: In Migraine, Oliver Sacks gave the example
by their interpretation of something so criminally unjust of a genius mathematician who would be catatonic
as a de.1tinal occurrence . .. with depression for 4 or 5 days, then pass into a
• AJ: Workers even accept pay cu& just to keep manic phase where he would be absolutely brilliant
their jobs. Nowadays, the contemporary equivalent of as a mathematician, then descend down into the de-
a raise is: not getting fired! pression phase again. As part of a "cycle," perhaps
• AR: One has to reflect on why nothing will incite our current social depression is a prelude to some
people to become outraged. You may recall the Washing- major breakthrough-
ton, D.C., riots caused by police brutality in the Latino • AR: I see your point, but my fear is that these cycles
community, when the city started going up in flames. I are subject to values that are becoming scarier and more
thought, "Now's the time for everyone to come to the ·regre.1.Jive. (Also, what's taking place is the Death of Death,
nation's capital and join in solidarity; it's essential that meaning the death of the JinguLarity of each death.) If our
this become a locus of public outrage." Of course, this "depression phase" was the Vietnam Syndrome, then the
idea didn't occur to anyone, whereas at least there was "manic phase" was the Gulf War: taking uppers, launch-
some mobilization against the Gulf War. It's as if Ameri- ing a million sorties, spending excessive sums of money
cans freeze when the time comes for local agitation. Even for each piece of "collateral damage" and in general
with people who are in principle mobilizable, a certain taking great libidinal pleasure in high tech destruction.
paralysis and blindness rules. These Washington, D.C. This is the way America has regulated its cycles-with
riots had the potential to evolve into something much war.
more turbulent-and powerful-
• AJ: Obviously, society's "control process" has
nipped such potentials in the bud. It seems that the
American people have an infinite ability to accommo-
date any abuse. If feminism is anything it has to
• AR: At first glance what you see is an extremely
depressed country-no one can "get it up" to deal with
be a rigorous call for justice. As
these things. But the question is also: whom do you ad- long as it excludes certain
dress yourself to? What LoCll.J 0/ power do you appeal to people, animals and even plants
when authority is so diffused? There seems to be this (I am thinking of Hegel's work
contagww complacency-the populace seems tranquilized.
A crisis is supposed to provoke a breakthrough,. it's
on plant-life in the
supposed to reveal what's wrong. Unacceptable situations Pbenomenology)? it's not
are .finally no longer permitted. But the tolerance for delivering its promise ...
alienation and political bludgeoning has become so great
that, far from being recognized as an oppression, it's
being somewhat uncritically applauded. Alienation has
been tran.1lJaLuated, in that David Lynch and others are
now celebrated as "artists of the alienated." Here I'm We've had to regard all past "revolutionary" move-
including all the genres of the "Living Dead" movies -in ments with a lot of suspicion because they've been reac-
general, the "post-punk culture." Americans are so deep- tive and dependent. Revolution so far has been based on
ly alienated that body piercing and tattoos might be some an oppoJitwnaL Li6idinalpotentiaLity: ifyou wage a war against

140
 the war, it's always according to the same values. As reference to an "enduring" peace. "Enduring" (as op-
fabulously as the Sixties may have liberated signs into posed to "eternal") has a certain range, but it's clear we
the public sphere and offered certain possibilities, never- have lleper maneuvered toward "perpetual" peace. Kant
theless this took place within the syndrome of the Viet- makes this clear in an incredibly lucid way. He very
nam War. What would be a genuinely affirmative ironically states that as a theorist he can fire his entire
movement that wouldn't merely be the excremental out- volley since no one cares what philosophers have to
come or the dirty underside of some appalling power say -already he is in a warlike polemic! He also says that
gesture? ThatJ what I think about. See, all protest has every government should consider having philosophers
been within the parameters of war and negativity-sub- advise them, because there's never a danger that any
ject to the law of the father, to mere trarMgre.t.fum-which philosopher will ever agree with another philosopher!
is just not enough. Come on -we hape to get out of this So there you have the guarantee of a felicitous" anarchy,"
infantile reactivity! where thinking is continually taking place ... where
What would it be to initiate an affirmative movement? there will never be a "unification" of ideas, because phi-
To affirm certain values-not merely in protest and an- losophers disdain one another. Therefore thinking peo-
ger, but in almost Jerene determination because we've spent ple ought always to be consulted - this, as you know, is a
some time reflecting on things? Our methodology has bit of a foreign policy to America!
been reactive - nothing has been affirmative. Is there the
possibility of a genuine displacement, realignment, reter-
ritorialization, that would not be so dependent on the
very values we abhor? This would have to come from
feminine intellJity- I don't see where else it would come What about the prospects for
from. revolution? One has to reflect on
To start thinking about, initiating and instituting a why notbing will incite people to
genuine peace (or "something") movement-again, we're
become outraged.
stuck with words that are paLeoLithic. Yet we can't just
coin new words each time we need new concepts; there-
fore we're stuck in a paleonymic linguistic trap. We saw
this in the peace movement: the nostalgia for an idiom
that was so rusty and obsolesced -nevertheless this is But you mentioned "love." I wanted to say something
our predicament as humans. This is why I think LinguLJtic about the right to Love and the Lope of right,l. The invention
revolution is the first order of importance -we need a of a new kind of "transformative grammar of revolution"
language change, which means, among other things, we would take us toward a relation to rights that would have
have to actively affirm matatlon. as its basis an understanding of finitude, or loving the
• AJ: That's key. We have to open up our language Other as mortal, fragile and finite. And this is what we as
to encompass many more complexities, because a sim- Americans have never been able to do; especially with
plistic language invites fascism. The word "love" is a our high tech ideology of progress in which everything is
good example: there should be at least 10 different infiniti::ed-you know what I'm saying?
words for the stages of a love relationship, with com- • AJ: When you say the "Other," who are you talk-
plex associations for each. Words like "peace" or "rev- ing about? Anybody who's not your Self? Or are you
olution" must be more action-inspiring- talking about blacks, women, minorities-all the dis-
• AR: Kant wrote a text called "To Perpetual Peace," placed people who are in the shadows?
which begins by saying that in the first place, "perpetual • AR: All of the above. Traditionally (historically and
peace" evokes agrapeyard (as in, "May one rest in perpet- philosophically) the Other has been viewed from the
ual peace"). He inquires into a "genuine" institution of position of a solipsistic (i.e., solely self-referencing) self.
peace which wouldn't be dependent on war or negativity, The Other is that which mayor may not be colonized by
and observes that peace treaties are completely in bad the Self, but is viewed from the position of the self.
faith, because a peace treilty always implies that force • AJ: America used to believe in the notion of
will be used if there's a breach of contract; a peace treaty "progress": that technology would take us to Outer
with another nation is already an admission that it's Space; that cars and houses and everything would
merely a oJwpellJlon of hOoJtiLitiu And Kant says, "This is continue to improve - basically that there would al-
not sufficient ... " ways be this linear ascension, which was essentially
• AJ: Implicit in any "peace" treaty with Russia is white imperialist evolution-
spying and surveillance-visually and electronically • AR: And the problem with the concept of a "high
invading and penetrating their territory to be sure of tech war" is that it still hangs onto the ideology of progress,
"compliance." There is a mistrustful and hostile legal- like: "We've made progreoJoJ in our ways of destruction!"
istic underpinning. America is stuck in the denial of death -witness the
• AR: Exactly; Kant says that we have never known a preoccupation with health clubs, vitamins, "scientific"
peace that would be "perpetual." Recently Bush made body building techniques, etc. If we refuse to recognize

141
and acknowledge the Other as /ra.qiLe, destitute, mortal, rehearsed) that he should prefer the lipiup dead, these
and finite -that:' when you start bombing the shit out of mummy techno-monsters and vampiric figures. That was
them! Does this make sense? the most important statement in the entire interview-
• AJ: Yes-ifwe cannot deal with death, we end up which is to say that he identified with these figures in
accepting the incredibly artificial and objectifying lan- particular. He certainly acted out a lJ1ul/1/111fieJ pre,lldency,
guage used by the media to describe the Gulf War- and now Son of Reagan (Bush) is following in the foot-
• AR: Like "friendly fire" -a full-on repression ofdeath. steps of his predecessor trying to engender life through
The minute Americans see "live" blood, they freak out. death -the death of social services, affordable housing,
They experience a denial of death which is absolutely etc. Of course, the Bushes have a retarded child - Quay-
profounJ-so that when death does take place, the vocab- le!
ulary shifts to "collateral damage" (or a similarly abstract The whole Bush family is extremely important, in-
euphemism). America became really anxious when they cluding the family pet, Millie the dog. When Bush was
thought there were Americans dead - but almost imme- elected President, one of the first staged" events" was:
diately this became translated into "friendly fire" which Millie got studded out, so she could have puppies. And
was within that syndrome of death denial. Americans this was a major propaganda ritual which was all about
cannot take blood -that's why censorship probably was proper breeding-it was a complete animal racism dis-
absolutely necessary from the government's point of view. course. I remember telling people, "Watch their rapport
That's why the Gulf War had to be bloodless, precise, to the dog, because here is where they articulate things
sutureless, high tech ... that are taboo, that are unconscious." About 3 months
later the dog's "autobiography" was released, in which
the dog ventriloquizes the "family history." The position-
ing of the family pet and all of the incestuous Oedipaliza-
The question is: Wbom do you tions implied are topics for future discussion ...
• AJ: Some people think Reagan was a war hero-
address yourself to? What locus of
he thought so himself-but his only war heroism
power do you appeal to ~when was in a Hollywood movie which was a bad '50s
authority is so {}iffLMe{}? docudrama ...
• AR: That's why I think that interpretations or analy-
ses that limit themselves to the media aspect of this war
are inadvertently aiding and abetting that "bloodless"
• AJ: The descriptions of this war were so hygienic fantasy. We still have to figure out in what ways this war
and anesthetized. No close-ups of bodies have been was part of the Western logos and a product of it. In
published-no photos of napalmed children running other words, how is it that values of national sovereignty
naked and screaming down a road. Suddenly I flashed have been rehabilitated, and war relepitimizeJ? Don't for-
on the Nancy Reagan biography, which contains beau- get that Vietnam was a war that rendered war a shameful
tifullittle details. She's typical of a certain generation activity-it was actually a "lapsus" in the logic of West-
of women, wanting money and glamor and clinging to ern metaphysics. The Gulf War wa.Jn 't just a media war-
an incredible denial of death. And when her husband that's part of the "logic" fostered by NintmJo with its
almost died, she banished words like "assassination extremely regressive values; this war, like any war, in7
attempt," saying instead, "The 'thing' that happened flicted barbaric, appalling ways of death. Postmodern
to Ron Reagan"! What an outrageous euphemism, readings of the war that limit themselves to its "high tech
like: "I don't want to talk about anything bad." She media aspect" may be interesting and merit some thought,
refused to let anybody around her mention that "nas- but they are complicit with the "enemy"-
ty" subject. And she is archetypal of that generation • AJ: Part of our alienation and depression comes
which came to power in the '50s. from the fact that we are so removed from blood,
• AR: The Reagans are a very important prop or met- death-rea/nu... I keep thinking that we didn't even
aphor. When Barbara Walters interviewed them, there see a real war - it was just a realistic cartoon. And no
was one off-the-script question that was surely meant as one can say they even felt it.
a pleasant diversion-a moment of joviality at the end of We're so anesthetized by seeing violence on TV
a rehearsed interview. But it caught Ronald Reagan by which is always done on this cartoon level, so no one
surprise, and for me his answer was crucial. She said, ever feels the shock of what brutality really is. You're
"Spontaneously, I'd like to ask you what your favorite not feeling that pain, you don't smell that blood, you
films are?" And there was a moment of panic because can't even mobilize your shock. And if suddenly this
this was unrehearsed! Then Ronnie went, "Well, Dracula Rodney King video is aired and the police are really
and" -then he had a memory lapse and gestured at the beating him up- you canfee/his bones being broken.
neck to Madame Reagan, saying, "You know -" and she I think we are so controlled by TV - is there any
replied, "Fran/w1.Jtein, dear." And he said, "Yes." other culture that watches more TV than we do? In
For me th is was incredible (precisely because it wasn't Europe they don't watch as much, do they?

142
 • AR: They will ! I think everyone will have this strange aims to attain a certain level of power and equality, even
displacement which is related to the post-political passiv- though equality is simply not enough -it doesn't even
ity and the loss of a public sphere. I'm sure that in a way, ll'ork, based as it is on that strange computational notion
you are trained as a spectator. TV might be the greatest that one equal.' one. But it's a reasonable start, given what
dispenser of tranquilizers ever invented; it almost cer- we have to work with.
tainly has a maternalizing function, no matter how vio- • AJ: Does one man ever equal another man, or one
lent it gets- man equal a woman? "'ho determines the ,jtandard by
• AJ: But it isn't "real" violence, like I said- which the equality is judged?
• AR: Depends on where it hits you. Still, we like to • AR: It's always in the name of "equality" and the
eat and act out in front of it; we don't like to stop the flow democratization of values that outrages are perpetrated.
of tranquilizing caresses - even if they tend to get a bit Equality is not enough; it's an insufficient concept- but
rougb. one we have to be very patient and careful in disman-
• AJ: Only rarely does something "real" break tling, because one would never want a rightwing back-
through, like that Rodney King video. That was prob- lash to take place while you're dismantling it.
ably the first time we ever saw real police doing some- It would probably be necessary to move in the direc-
thing so barbaric that a whole continent of people tion of/tllldamental d~'JYl11l/1etry, which is to say that the
were mobilized into genuine outrage- Other is de"titute. A responsibility without limits has to
• AR: And its timing was important; it was a partial acknowledge the Other's fragility, susceptibility to death,
allegory of the war. It was "wild," uncensored video. It and absolute destitution ... so that one responds not to
showed the whole unleashing of police/tJrce on a single that barbaric yet powerful myth dominating our exist-
man of color, exposing all the attendant rhetoric of raCL~1/11 ence-which is that the Other will kill, mutilate, devour
which was censored during the war. I think a lot of the and destroy you. Because traditionally, the Other has
response was the displaced response that would have been viewed as something that is threatening. It's this
taken place had the war shown its true violence. And in view which has to be neutralized.
the "real" Gulf War, the spirit of the combatants imitated A feminine displacement of values would tend to
that of a football game or the Fourth of July ... plus, view the Other in its destitution, helplessness, and in
they were bombarded by porno films before they soared terms of its mortality ... then the Self would nece,f,'arily
into the sky. So they were in a state of transfixion by have a relation to tbe Otber ill it" /;tlllleedine,l". The works
media - maybe it was that addiction to media that allowed of philosopher Emmanuel Levinas are a good place to
them to do their "work." This is something we have to start getting this together.
think about ... We can find examples of ethical concern in past mo-
ments of Liberalism -with Kennedy there was the Peace
Corps. One can say, "Oh, that was colonialist tbi.1 and
tbat, appropriation ... " but if one could momentarily
Justice does not have a halt those formulaic and tired observations, one could
see this as a moment in American history in which a more
recognizable history. In fact, the liLA relation to the Other was being at least, with all the
figures of justice we have are rather awkwardness of infancy, attempted. Here there was a
frightful: King Solomon, whose relation to the Other's fundamental destitution; a sense
justice was instantaneous, prepared of responsibility toward other countries.
• AJ: Perhaps our momentary relation to the desti-
to cut the body of a child in half. tute Other stemmed from an Aristocratic inheritance:
nobluJe oblige, the notion that one was obligated to help
those needier-
• AR: And that position has almost completely disap-
• AJ: How does the Denial of Death relate to the peared; on every level of "being" and "political vision" it's
failure of the feminist revolution? simply no longer there. I mean we've changed from the
• AR: This is very problematic; it involves a rhetoric of War on Poverty to the War on Drugs-or more literally,
empowerment - the War on POl'erty has changed into the War on Poverty
• AJ: That was a key feminist term which has now (the homeless, the sick. the uneducated, and so on). For
been taken up by Bush; everybody now says "empow- this war to have been successfully deployed, there had to
erment." have been a complete reversal of the previously legislat-
• AR: Yes, we haven't yet given up the "signifier" of ed American relation to "the Other."
power, the desire for power, or an understanding of • AJ: Americans no longer feel any obligation to
power as desire. What I expect from "true feminism" is a any other culture. Behind the Peace Corps' "generosi-
complete breaking up of old orders of language and ty" was America's ethnocentric belief that we were the
concepts and values ... a tborougb deconstruction of "best" and richest nation on earth-and to some ex-
power. Instead, Phase One of the feminist movement still tent we were the richest. But we don't feel that any-

143
 Photo: Nina Glaser

more-60% believe that the Japanese are economical- did a lot to whittle people's hope down.
ly superior- • AR: That was an extremely important event-the
• AR: We are becoming an underdeveloped nation; last surge of societal optimism that I personally felt.
there's no doubt about it. But the change in attitude took Because when that phallic ChaLlenger exploded, it trau-
place prior to our collapse as an empire. America's fabu- matized the entire nation. People were deeply shook up;
lation about itself, the "uppers" it took to feel good about suddenly this promise of a pe1ect (and morally unambig-
itself, had to do with a certain discourse which has now uous) technology was shattered LiteraLLy; all sorts of future-
been compLeteLy effaced: the discourse of the Statue of oriented openings were shut down.
Liberty CBring us your poor, your tired, your huddled Perhaps the "trade-off" was "fair" (if one can calculate
masses"). America used to get high on itself, thinking in this way-which is always obscene): seven people
about its exceptional position as a generous and open died; what were the consequences? Well, if this was
space of sublime moral"competence. indeed a metaphor for technological power failure, dis-
• AJ: When growing up, I remember people felt appointment and non-knowLeJge, then its lesson for hu-
superior to everyone ... mothers would tell kids, manity was in"JupenJahLe. People experienced great
"Finish your plate; think of all the starving kids in depression with regard to the coLlapJe of that technology
China, or in Europe!" Now America's full of homeless which was so sure of itself. It was to be this pe"JagogicaL
people wandering around- mUJl.on [it had a teacher on board]; it would open up
• AR: There has been a movement from the neighbor- space to ci"iLUzn passengers ... this was to be an extra-
hood Irish cop that everyone is supposed to love, to a globalization of incredible technological frontier-bust-
different kind of policing of the world. And I think this ing. Instead, it was a very bleak Jay of Jhock. I thought,
"responsibility" is making us feel profoundly depressed. "Well, this will truly shake up any optimism about the
Are people truLy buying into this foolish, infantile yellow- great, so-called 'high technologies'!"
ribbon-tying parade and circus of patriotism? I can't • AJ: -which Reagan had already started to dis-
believe there's really much affect behind ( at-it's more mantle or divert to militaristic purposes. The last time
like an avowal of total alienation. the country bonded together for something that wasn't
• AJ: Another factor is the death of the Space Pro- "negative" (not a war, not a crisis, not a death or
gram. Society's vast collective enthusiasm about this wreaking of death) was the Moon Landing which kin-
future high tech frontier just evaporated. I think this dled imaginations worldwide.

144
 • AR: "Community" and "bonding" open enormously • AR: Historically, the last systematic statewide at-
important dossiers. What aDout comJllunity? There's been tempt at community was communism. And with the fail-
two possibilities so far: 1) the "community with a project," ure of communism - I'm wondering what the after-effects
2) the "community of lovers." Very often when the project or after-shocks will be?
(or ideal) turns sour, there is a retreat to the "community • AJ: After the Russian Revolution of 1917 degen-
of lovers," where the lovers will bond and be at once erated into Stalinism, a lot of Trotskyites, Marxists
"finite" yet making promises of "eternity" -offering each and assorted le&ists in America still clung to their
other the possibility of an infinity beyond the present fantasies for decades. Even in the '60s and '70s there
moment. were still idealistic groups struggling toward that ide-
Now let's take this slowly. Would it be possible to al of a Marxist "community." But now, with the fall of
have a community without a "project" (by which I mean the Berlin wall, etc, it seems there are no more illu-
afaJciltic project) or a real or even fabricated crisis? Let's sions of some "sweeping revolutionary force" to hang
assume as a working hypothesis that "community" is onto-
what we need-and I think that's true. Now, unless one • AR: Also, what has been "let go of" is the illusion
wanted to be completely in some sort of psychotic isola- that the state is the site or locus for realizing or fulfilling
tion ... the need for community. Today, for example, a state like
• AJ: I don't think humans want that. Babies die if "Kuwait" can exist teletopically-which is to say, "long
they don't have enough personal contact. distance," based on foreign circulation of its funds. It's
• AR: There's a whole history of communities: reli- not simply a locality in the old sense of what would
gious communities, patriotic communities, fascist constitute a state.
communities. As different as they are from one another, So in terms of "community," a truly thoughtful, de-
they all "guarantee" their bonding by some sort of com- manding, relentless feminism would demand a re-chart-
munion or promise of communion, or a project, or a goal. ing of territorialities; the suspension of old-fashioned
Sometimes "community" is established in reaction to a boundaries of what constitutes a state. In this regard
crisis; but once the crisis is resolved, the community technology is on our side, because it charts new spatiali-
disbands. ties. I don't want to sound like a cheerleader for technol-
Now, is it possible to have "community" without fu- ogy, but what is required for the future is a remapping
sional desire, or without a project? Could there be a even of our 1IIlCOllJCLoll.J topology. Therefore, no one in their
feminism that would establish community without" 1-2-3- right mind is even going to hope that the .!tate will be the
4-5" as its demands and goals (because once you reach place where something grandiose will happen, communi-
your goals, that would be the end of feminism). I think ty-wise. Nor are they going to expect ;it..llia from the
this is a critical question: could there be "community" state - nor from any typical (or stereotypical) and scle-
without an agenda, a project, a fusional desire. rotic institutional models.
• AJ: Most cults have an exclusionary bonding; it
becomes "Us Against Them." Or a neighborhood tree-
planting project will self-destruct once the trees are all
planted.
All protest has been subject to the
• AR: The war produced the simulacrum (if not the
reality) of community; an incredible simulation of "pull- law of the father, to mere
ing together," supporting the "tropes" (as in tropism) and tran.19re~Mion. Come on-we have to
resuscitating all sorts of cliches that would allow a com- get out of this infantile reactivity!
munity to feel itself as something l'ital- that exists, that
desires, and has power. Another catastrophe example
was the earthquake, which produced a sense of commu-
nity in the Bay Area.
Here we have to interrogate our desires: what is it Earlier, I mentioned the "community oflovers." There
about war that we oe.Jire? This is part of that "indecency" you have a microcosm where justice is played out, ethics
we have to confront, because we can't continue to con- are revealed (there's always a question of wrongdoing-
sider war as an accident or simply unfortunate or inevita- what is a "just" way of behaving toward "the Other"
ble. Clearly, there's something about deJtructil'e p!eaJure whom you love?)-
that has to be brought into focus. • AJ: But that's very narrow-a "community" of
• AJ: Perhaps, but in the Gulf War the "destruc- only two lovers?
tion" aspect was anesthetized and whittled away to • AR: Yes, but we don't have that many communities
nothing. We never saw (or experienced) the death or to examine. Since we're diagnosticians, the advantage of
destruction. That war briefly provided the illusion of looking at the "community of lovers" is to see how it, in
community, but that illusion has evaporated as people its many differential modes, promises itself justice, makes
continue to lose jobs, and more "homeless" appear out promises for a future, draws up contracts ... plus the
of the woodwork everywhere ... way it reveals "acceptable" excesses of violence (show

145
me a couple without violence), and extreme volatility. people ... while precisely allowing for deviations which
Well ... do we have models for what it is we want? may fracture the group? Right now we're in this genuine
Because it's no longer sufficient to merely oJlerthrow. We impasse. We see what has paralyzed and neutralized our
have some models of elementary justice in mind that desires and our political engagement. By cultural defini-
should be immediately implemented: universal health tion, women are not satisfied; Lacan said that woman's
care, for example. But this certainly wouldn't be my only essential signifier is "encore" -more, more, more! So if
goal- it's nothing to get excited about because it's so there were an essence of woman, it would be to demand
primally neceJ,'ary. According to Kant, freedom isn't a more. And Lacan linked this to the traumatizing fact that
question; it is something that we are .9illen, granted, as women can have multiple orgasms or even fake them,
human beings. Freedom ought to be a given. Right now, and that women are on the side of what Deleuze will later
however, society is in the emergency ward, and urgent call "multiplicity; more; surplus." (Here I don't want to
measures have to be taken - but they're not being taken, essentialize the biological model- nor to repress it.)
partly because the fundamental question of "community"
needs to be explored; it remains a question. Then you can
Jtart talking about "justice" and what one rea//y wants.
• AJ: And this goes back to the possibility of human
What I expect from II true
revolution. So many things are almost forcing the
breakdown and remapping of everything we think of feminism" is a complete breaking
in terms of "territoriality." Historically, we've evolved up of old orders of language and
(if that's the right word) from the tribe to the city- concepts and values ... a tborougb
state to the "country," all of which has paralleled the
evolution of human consciousness. Now, (potentially)
deconstruction of power.
we're global information nomads, ready to wander the
world at will without moving our bodies from our
computer terminals. But we've yet to assume a "world
citizen" identity which bypasses the conception of What is the group psychology of the future? As the
earth without those "sovereign" borders. "community" or the notion of community disintegrates,
• AR: I think "in-mixation" would be the rule, and this we observe that the group today depends upon a mirror-
is precisely what freaks people who are still brandishing ing of appearances; thl.J identity or that ("black," "lesbi-
slogans of "purity" and all those racist notions of strict an," "Chicano," etc) which is in part an artificial label. In
separatism. Ice-T noted that racism is no longer to be psychoanalytic terms, it's all about the expansion of the
considered as the difference between "black" and "white" ego which is multiplied and endlessly reflected, like a
in America; it's now been reassigned according to other narcl.JJl.Jm. The group demands conformity and uniformi-
categories -such as the cO/lJerllatilleJ and the non-COl1Jerlla- ty so that the ego at its roots finds no opposition.
tilleJ. I thought that was pretty accurate, in light of other But I think what we have to find is the possibility of a
global and more local realignments going on, which if community of Jhattered egoJ-if that's possible. Until now
they just repeat and reproduce the structure of binary group psychology or military psychology (or any model
oppoJition, are surely not acceptable. for activity or action) has always been based on the "ego"
• AJ: I don't think they can be anymore. (which is a male ego, and, as Freud insists, a male libido).
• AR: Exactly-and that's the hopeful possibility. This ego has to be Jhattered. And Woman under patriar-
chy has faced an inhuman choice: to do without an identi-
ty, or to identify with what she is not. So there has been
no way of expressing her special needs ... Woman has
had to identify with what is only an abJeIlce.
• AJ: What would constitute a "feminist" revolution Laurence Rickles has observed that the group mem-
that would truly change the world? Right now, a big ber (which he identifies with a "Californian" or "Nation-
obstacle is the dogma involved in being "Politically al ~ocialist" ideology) wants to be "different, like everyone
Correct," which triggers feelings of guilt and repressed else he wants to be like"! The question is: how can we
desire. "Revolutionary" groups often impose strict ex- genuinely shatter the iron collar of group formations
clusionary guidelines for membership. For example, which demand conformity and uniformity? How can we
there are certain feminist or lesbian "guidelines" re- truly transform group psychology without violently "ap-
garding: which clothes are socially acceptable, how propriating"? How can depropriation (not being identical
you have sex and with whom, compulsory vegetarian- to others, or even Jeij'-identical) become a politically pow-
ism, etc. This becomes as oppressive as being in grade erful and compelling force?
Jchool- • AJ: In order to have this shattering of the ego
• AR: Somehow we have to find a conduit that will (which is more like recoflJtrtuting the ego) we have to
relibidinalize and realign our hope. We need a newly put a stop to a certain widespread cycle of abuse.
structured horizon. The problem is: how do you mobilize Basically we have a culture of severely dysfunctional,

146
abused people. The whole nuclear family upbringing
keeps recycling these crippling patterns of child disci-
pline and withholding of parental love. So throughout
life there's this desperate conformity and self-denial in
the hope of attracting the parental love that was never
given. Most people are bleeding, wounded souls who
think that if they join some group and look and talk
the same they'll find what they've always searched for.
This is a key fundamental cause to be grappled with.
• AR: Do you mean the abusive structure, or the
wounding?
• AJ: The wounding. On a deep personal level, peo-
ple have to want to break that ego shell, dismantle that
armoring (that was formed in our very dysfunctional
early upbringing) that keeps us from really being flex-
ible in life-having humor, irony, desire and pleasure.
In a society where people could actually feel true
pleasure, there might be fewer problems. I see ego
shattering as akin to going to the source of denial-the
irony is that letting go and experiencing the source of
Photo, Bart Nagle
pain paradoxically revitalizes the body and self to Andrea Juno with Avital Ronell
experience joy and life. Ego shattering to me would be
breaking down on a very deep level to build up again Minh Ha has a term, "inappropriated," which I use in
with more maturity and pleasure. Obviously, this is this way: that women need to be inappropriate, not appro-
simplistic, yet ... wounded, emotionally immature priated, not proper or part of a property value that can be
and crippled people just replicate the same oppres- clearly delimited. An example that's not an example is our
sions they were taught-the Women's Movement tried history. Women have always been appropriated-if they
to articulate this. exist at all in the major systems of thinking and desire
• AR: The task for women is unlearning self-repression and discourse and action, they're begrudgingly lumped
and reaching affirmation. How would that be possible? into "universality" or "humanity." If we're talking about
Everyone can probably identify the symptoms, although "equality" one usually says, "Well, women are the same
some people might resist that self-knowledge. Women as men; that's why they deserve equal rights." Whereas
are socialized to see more than one point of view at a it's never been the case that women have been given their
time, and certainly to see more than their own point of OtherneJd (note that "been given" is already a pa.JJive ver-
view. Women are absolute JpeciaLiAJ at seeing the view of bal construction!) .
the Other-whether it's that baby they might be carry- • AJ: In history, in science, in art, women have al-
ing, or a parent or a friend, etc. And if this ability could ways been appendages onto a male world. Even on a
be re-framed as a positive force, this could be extremely craft or folk art level, women's achievements were
important. never valued, although this is starting to change-
• AR: We have to overturn all of that. Don't forget
that democracy (based on this computational notion that
"one equals one," or "equality") is fundamentally ground-
We can't continue to consider war ed in fraternity-derived from the French Revolution's
"liberty, equality, fraternity." We have definitely inte-
as an accident or simply
grated that heavy and inappropriate word into our no-
unfortunate or inevitable. What is tion of "democracy." I don't think that's an accident or a
it about war that we iJuire? random incursion of historical negativity. The fact (and it
u a fact) that this is a fraternaL politics which we're still
calling a patriarchy (we're taught in school that George
Washington was the "father" of our country) has only
I'm not saying that men don't have a rapport to the recently been analyzed by Jacques Derrida and by Juli-
Other (in fact some of the best male philosophers have et MacCannell in her book, Regime ofthe Brother.
proven that they are obsessed with the Other). But with Now the "post-patriarchal" phase might be the frater-
very few exceptions men have initiated movements of naL one. And what's a "brother"? What's a "community of
appropriatwn of the Other, colonizing the Other to the brothers"? Freud (and others) had something to say
point of annihilating the Other. Whereas women are about this: a sister is completely secondary and derived
trained to try to clear abysses of difference without ex- from this fraternity of men. And this has to be ana-
pecting to assimilate the Other in any "total" way. Trinh lyzed-the fact that "one equals one" really doesn't cover

147
the aberration that we're calling woman. and "universality" is always a way to efface conscious-
Until now, social forms and cultural needs have been ness of what may be truly oppressive, to the detriment of
structured according to concepts that in one way or genders, classes, races, and difference ...
another derive from the concept of the "ego." Since the • AJ: When Bush says a "New World Order," it's
18th century the strengthening and the unifying of the more in terITlS of Nazi fascism: one body of oppression
Jelfhas been a major project of man. Here Freud pointed wiping out all the diverse cultural expressions humans
out a real cal'eat: Aggression has to be addressed. Aggres- have evolved. But if we are to survive, we absolutely
sivity is admired, even exalted; it's a libidinal force. It's not need a planetary "maturity" to be able to "come to-
something that can simply be discarded or phased out. gether" on a global level and yet not wipe out all the
Any true thinking about or remodeling of the "social" has African tribes or South American Indians to exalt
to take into account the human grounding in aggression, some sterile WASP ideal.
which Lacan then explains in terms of "paranoid map- • AR: I agree, but I'm just pointing out that most
pings of the maternal body." discourse about planetary unification is still a male dis-
course, is still an &o:cLtMiollary one -and one which mobi-
lizes the same logic of diJpLacement we've seen before.
Why do some of my students prefer to campaign on
behalf of Greenpeace rather than dealing with the ineq-
How are you going to make the
uities of that Oakland ghetto next door? I'm talking
world safe for true deviance, true about an actual apartheid situation where welfare mothers
play, a genuine expression of are injuriously deprived of dignity and funding. In gen-
aggression as desire, and sexual eral, my students who may be "PC" will far more willing-
ly engage in "global" levels of activity rather than the
expression that displaces
immediate, locaL face-to-face encounter with the "Oth-
aggression? This is very difficult! er" in the next neighborhood. Their "global" discourse
reflects the fact they see themselves as the cowboys who
are on the "good" side ... but I am very suspicious of
the ideology of good guys who are going to rescue a kind
of entirety of &l:iJtence rather than go help the ghetto-
Aggression has everything to do with the conquest of dweller next door.
space; it's primordial in that it is related to the infant's
rapport with the maternal body and the sense of territory
and conquest from having to be weaned from that first
body. It's no coincidence that for centuries "country" and
"cunt" have been linked etymologically; by Shakespeare's Ice- T noted that racism is no longer
time this was already established. the difference between '1>lack" and
• AJ: In any future society or organizational struc- " w h'Ite ".In Am' b
.,seen
erIca; It
ture, one cannot repress or eliminate violence or its
expression, but one has to rechannel it into more
reassigned to other categories-
constructive uses (in aikido, one can redirect an assail- such as the COflJervativu and the
ant's energy against them). In Bali, one of the most non-COflJervativu.
peaceful cultures on the planet-a place where art and
life are totally intertwined-entire villages regularly
stage dramas involving mock warfare and conflict; the
violent impulses are channeled and integrated, so to
speak, into more creative and "safer" outlets.
• AR: First of all, we want to &t:poJe patriarchy and its There's a movement to reintegrate objects, things, ani-
mutant offspring, "fraternal order." Under that undead mals and plants (which by the way I'm very sympathetic
President, Reagan, patriarchy proliferated like a disease. toward; I have never argued for the absolute strict differ-
But part of this "exposure process" which we have to ence between human beings and animals in philosophi-
undertake (and really think about) includes the way cal terms; I love plants, mineral life, etc-I'm sure there
certain images of ecological balance and planetary unity has to be a new ethics about ;it./tice to aLL Life on the planet)
are being exploited. Because any planetary, visionary but I still find this "movement" lodged in a kind of
projection tends to efface local differences which may 0pp0,litionaL Logic. It doesn't seem that people are able to
exact difficult demands, intellectually and politically. invest their engagement in both the black woman across
Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't engage in "lo- the street anJ in saving the whales. Everyone's saving the
cal" activities like recycling; I'm saying that the (JiJpface- whales while stepping over bodies in their own streets.
nunt to the "ecological" (even in the case of eco-feminism) This is a problem that really faces us now.
may be just a diversion from the "local" to the "whole"- • AJ: It's far easier-and less messy-to deal with

148
an abstract whale halfway around the world than to ety-yet it's nothing you can put your finger on. You
actually involve oneself in the lives of people next don't have the satisfaction of pointing to precise, evoc-
door. We live in a superficial culture of denial-death ative Amnesty International images of torture in Chile
denial is one of our societal underpinnings. that people can get passionate about-
• AR: This is very important, because the Gulf War • AR: Until now we've had one tyrannical gender's
was played out in a mode of forgetfulness -as if the war rule, and we have to ask questions about "post-patriar-
didn't attack us personally. It was zoned outside of the chy." And our discussion would include all the inflicting
American citizenry - the war was Ollt tbere, e!.'e",bere. Th is of epistemological damage to our language and culture.
is a very dangerous schizo-relation to what happened- It would include displacing and overturning all these
particularly because it is an effect of the projections of a images that have taken up possibly perlllanent residence
very disturbed presidency. in the imaginary-for example: "God the Father had a
• AJ: You're talking about human life being deval- Son Who" -r~tJbt, the son just popper) Ollt of the virginal
ued into meaninglessness: the fact that perhaps 300,000 vessel who was completely ,'econdary to that primal lin-
Iraqis were massacred in the span of two months. eage. Our discussion would include all sorts of difficult
Fifty years ago we felt "morally right" when we bombed overturnings - including turnings of one's "tolllacb - be-
Hiroshima - yet when that bomb dropped, as a human cause these subjugations are inscribed my deeply. To let
response our culture was Jbocked at the horror. It's go of the se/fL.lC1. ftU. structuring powers of tradition (which
amazing that now we've so detached ourselves from keep you glued to the old pathways, almost genetically,
human life to the point that there still is no mass so to speak) -we need the Will to Rupture. Because this
comprehension of this death. So our relationships to will be a hard task: it's not easy to open up a space where
other humans are very schizophrenic-we can invest the future will be something absolutely "Other" and
energy and enthusiasm in saving the Amazon forest, " ew" - not just a mutation or repetition or reproduc-
but- tion of the pa"t.
• AR: The Rain Forest and Save the Whales are all
non-conflictual, uncontested sites. Madonna (or is it /11111'-
DOllna, as a friend of mine says) can be for the Amazon
forest, and who's going to be against it? Once again this
is an example of a suppression of difference. Everyone Group psychology or military
agree,f to agree, therefore in a larger sense there's a sup- psychology has always been
pression of conflict. And this scares me; this "Let's all based on the ego (which, as
agree to agree" process. What can we all agree on - that
garbage should be recycled? Or to Save the Amazon - of
Freud insists, is a male ego). This
course we agree! But this is part of a numbing po/iticJ 4 ego has to be Jbattered.
Jcbizopbrenu. inveJtment usurping our energy to protest.
• AJ: I think people have suffered so much wound-
ing and abuse in their childhood that they're incapable
of maturity. So now the average marriage or even
friendship lasts 1-7 years, at most. Consequently one • AJ: Every past "revolution" has produced an au-
never deeply confronts oneself or any other person. thoritarian, guilt-ridden nightmare, with in-fighting
There's a continual erecting of ego walls, because if and constant pressure to keep your desires down so
you drop that ego, you're going to experience some you can be a good "PC" party member-
extreme pain of realization: the pain of our lives, the • AR: So when I call for ego-shattering politics, that
pain of our bodies, the pain of our planet, and the pain means entering a Danger Zone!
of our inevitable future death. Yet until you do that, • AJ: In a New Society, the aggmMion drive will be
you can't reconstruct a positive life. It's not "wiping widely acknowledged and consciously channeled into
the slate clean" so much as stripping down to an es- more creative outlets, such as theatre or art. Because if
sence. But people are too scared to look at the pain in you close your eyes, it's going to hit you over the head
our world. The suffering of people right now is so from behind.
intense, from AIDS victims to the rapidly increasing • AR: As finite beings in a finite world, how do we
poor-there's no medical care, no schooling-we're break with what seems to be an inftnite process of struc-
rapidly retreating back to a feudal order where only turing and tradition that people (who pretend things are
the 10% who can "afford" a life will have it. working just fine) are clinging to? The point is, as a body
• AR: We're probably returning to a schizophrenic, politic, we're not doing real well-
"cold" society: what Levi-Strauss saw as the neo-savage • AJ: Things now are like a manic St Vitus Dance-
world of parsimony, limits and the "end" -meaning not • AR: Exactly. And feminism as a 11200'Clluntofthought is
the end, but a world ending in sheer exploitation of man in a difficult position now, because Woman wants to be
by man, brute force, and cover-ups. detached from universalizing propositions; doesn't want
• AJ: This coldness and cruelty is emerging in soci- to be an essence that's ftxed, or the projection or the

149
symptom of Man. If women are inappropriate, and can't tion of absolute .Jhowdown, Armageddon: "This is it!" Viet-
be appropriated into a totalizing system, then you can't nam was: "No more Vietnams!" Every war has brought
generalize. That's where we find ourselves. the prorr.ise of closure and the promise that war will end.
How do women negotiate a contract with the future Every war has been explicitly self-hating, explicitly shell-
that would open up a "place" between the absolute singu- shocked by itself and its inability to contain its effects.
larity of each person, and a more general law or horizon And this Gulf War was to be yet another war of closure
of justice? One thing we've learned, at the end of the which would bring about a" ew World Order."
Millennium, is that we have not learned to be just. Why is Yet as the "closed" war it proclaimed, "In future wars
it that justice, which was a project and a promise from Il'omen are going to ... " -and this is absolutely shock-
the pre-Socratic era, could never be realized except as a ing! This is a total perverJwn of women's life-giving poten-
threat ("We will bring this person to justice!" is a very tialities: under the guise of "more freedom for women" to
violent promise) - justice itself appears as its own nega- engender a discourse toward a whole new offspring of
tivity. The question, ."Why have we not learned to be post-Gulf Wars?! I have never seen this before, because
just?" must co-appear with questions concerning why every war has looked into its own abysses with horror
women, racial differences, class and economic differenc- and has implored the higher powers that it be the last
es are still a "problem" -a world-wide problem. Don't war; that it was necessitated by absolute moral instiga-
forget that the Gulf War was a regre.fdwn - back to an tion: Jomebody had to deal with Hitler, Saddam Hus-
absolutely male-dominated conference table. seln ...
• AJ: This new fake tokenism issue about women • A.J: This is the first war without any shocking
fighting in the war pretends to be some breakthrough images of human death or tragedy. The horrors and
in women's freedom. This just exacerbates the confu- torturous deaths weren't reported in the American
sion that people feel- press. The European press revealed a few nightmarish
• AR: That's a great irony, and it brings us back to the news fragments, such as a report on these star cluster
problem of group psychology. This is about the literaliza- bombs whose fragments were so small they couldn't be
tion of uniformity and conformity; about appropriation. removed, yet in a few days your body would be shred-
For a woman to participate she has to be uniform with ded inside! This kind of death isn't like Hiroshima,
the "unisex" of the universal male. She hasn't yet been where you're walking along and suddenly you're va-
allowed to go to the killing fields, poor dear, but this is porized. Yet there were no reports about these bombs
absolute reduction to the same sorry level of "equality." in the paper. The much-touted "precision bombing"
And this is exactly what we're opposed to. apparently was only a small percentage of the total
bombing; it was a government PR scam.
• AR: When the war broke out, the American rape
rate rose dramatically. It unleashed this libido that was
kept in its cage: this male ego libidinal force. In other
Aggressivity is aiJmireiJ~ even
words, the effects of this war were very far-reaching and
exalted; it's a libidinal force. It's will continue to open up incredible areas of disaster.
not something that can simply be • AJ: Yet despite all the apparent passivity every-
discarded or phased out. Any true where, I think that people really do not like the state
they're in - just being couch potatoes watching a numb-
remodeling of the II social" has to
ing series of lies on Tv. There are many people who
take into account the human would love to be involved in multicultural groups, in
grounding in aggrurJion. political action. We need a structure by which all these
groups could be mobilized and allied-
• AR: WelL we don't have the acceJJ code yet, and
that's what we're trying to invent. People can always be
mobilized-that's the tragic lesson of the 20th century.
• AJ: The funny thing is: the issue of whether wom- They can be mobilized to gas Jews, they can be mobi-
en are going to be allowed in front line battles has been lized to lynch blacks. This is partly why we're such a
twisted into a question of "universal" (translation: depressed couch potato society-
f1Ul.Le) height and measurement requirements - mean- • AJ: But these are negative mobilizations based on
ing that very few women will be able to qualify ... hatred and exclusion-
• AR: The way women were appropriated by this war • AR: But don't forget that when they are mobilized,
machine is a little scary, because via the female body it's in the name of apoJitivity: "one nation, one Volk. "Even
they're now projecting.fltture wars. This is one of the first for the Gulf War, people were not mobilized to murder,
times that we're actually "lightly" discussing future wars. they were mobilized to be on a Mi.J.Jwn!rom GOd. Every-
World War I was supposed to be the last and total war: one from Madonna to Bush is on a mission from God-
the "war to end all wars." World War II was a totally people are always putting forth the "call of mobilization"
traumatic finality of war. Every war has had its articula- in terms of positive communion values. So we knoll' that

150
people can be mobilized, but we've been holding our/ire. volves: how can we posit values beyond questions of sexu-
How are you going to make the world safe for true al difference? Here we note that this already aJdlll1Ud a
deviance, true play, a genuine expression of aggression truly feminist location. Women are not the ones who
as desire, and sexual expression that displaces aggres- initiated these values that are making women rightfully
sion? This is very difficult stuff, and this is where we find and justifiably angry. Here I call to mind Nietzsche's
ourselves. Another problem is anger, because anger is a question: "How do we overcome our nausea about' man '?"
very strong, important, and "therapeutically correct" at- For Nietzsche, vomiting represented a rel'eNa! of assimi-
titude. Most therapies want you to render transparent lation by the digestive system (thus a reversal of dialec-
your anger as a moment in a larger healing procedure. tics and a way to attack Hegel); it was: "No, I won't
And this has something to do with the promise of the assimilate this; I'm going to reject this. I want to puke out
future. all the poison I've been fed by philosophy, by history, by
patriarchy." This is why Nietzsche tried to invent what is
falsely translated as "Superman"; the "Ubermensch" is
not necessarily a man-it's trand-human. And I submit
that its gender is not clear, because the relation Nietzsche
My students who may be "PC" will
had to women and to Lou Salome was so complicated.
far more willingly engage in When Nietzsche was puking out Woman, he was puking
"global" levels of activity rather out Woman aJ invented by Man (weakened therefore, and
than the immediate, local, face-to- ravaged by resentment), and pinning his hopes on a
Eace encounter WIt • h t h e "0t h er".In trand-human that would have overcome misogynist in-
scriptions of woman.
the next neighborhood. Everyone's • AJ: So what does the "trans-human" mean to you?
saving the whales while stepping • AR: It's a bridge to the future -something posited
over bodies in their own streets. beyond the values of sexual difference and the war of the
sexes (always initiated by the conquering male meta-
physical subject). To return to an earlier question, how
do we displace anger-that anger which eats up your
insides, yet must be positively valorized? Anger has to
How was it possible for one gender to dominate the somehow bypaJd conflict without duppreJdin.9 conflict-
other so tyrannically? How was it possible that this war because a true conflict doeJ exist. But how can anger
be perpetrated, that racism completely ravaged our un- come to term (and that is a feminine figure of speech:
conscious and our conscious lives? It is possible that, at "coming to term.")? How do we give birth to that which
best, we're a!! only recovering racwtJ. Perhaps we're so in- will ducceed anger- be the successor and the "success"?
scribed by these annulling, annihilating traditions that
we're barely going to climb out of the mess we're in.
This is why I'm trying to summon up such an old-
fashioned notion as the wi!!. We know that the will to
rupture, the will to break, might produce breaks and
When the war broke out, the
breakdowns. We have to examine how we can not be American rape rate rose
condemnatory while passing through the necessary mode dramatically. It unleashed this
of anger-not get Jtuck there. How can we affirm where Lihido that was kept in its cage-
we're going-affirm the multiplicity, the difficulties?
One question that's been raised is: could there be a
this male ego libidinal force.
"female" (or specifically "feminine") discourse? Here,
the problem is that women tend to speak about them-
selves as if they know who they are. Yet there are so many
unresearched areas of "non-knowledge" associated with • AJ: The only way a woman can escape an abusive,
Woman: for example, divination, witchcraft and other misogynistic relationship is through full-fledged an-
"occult" concerns. These areas of non-knowledge have to ger. Anger may also be the conduit by which women in
be liberated as they are crucial to Woman's understand- general can free themselves from larger social oppres-
ing of who she "is." This is a delicate operation, of course. sions.
For the domains of non-knowledge are hardly gender- • AR: Anger must not be confined to being a mere
specific, and we want to resist the pernicious trap of offdhoot of ressentimental, festering wounds, but must be
expulsing women (once again) toward extra-epistemic a channeling or broadcast system that, through creative
orbits. Does one need to be reminded that women are expression, produces a certain community. That image of
also thoroughly capable doctors, professors, publishers, a mythical, Medusan threat is wonderful-
etc? • AJ: Although historically, she's like a lot of these
Yet another (though related) area of questioning in- goddesses who became defamed, denigrated and vili-

151
 tained in the patriarchal
vocabulary while "juno"
(term for a woman's
soul) was lost. Yet how
could Juno not be en-
raged when her (and all
women's) roles had be-
come so repressed and
enslaved? Suddenly
Juno is the "property"
of Jupiter, inferior to
him-of course she'd be
mad and hysterical!
• AR: Helene Cixous
wrote The Laugh ofthe Me-
dll.la, which rewrites Me-
dusa's face, or rereads it
as laughter that is frozen
through history. It's a very
powerful work that op-
poses the whole "tradi-
tional" reading of Medusa
as the castrating abyss
that at once petrifies and
wilts the penis.
• AJ: How could the
Medusa ever have been
interpreted as castrat-
ing? The Medusa is a
very sexualized being in-
separable from the earth
and the body. Snakes-
how phallic, sexual and
libidinal can you get?
Snakes are associated
with kundalini energy
which is very explosive
and electric, producing
a surge that clears away
fog in the brain and in-
vigorates the spine - it
produces a rupture-
• AR: That's what Ni-
etzsche insists upon: to
Photo: Jane Handel bury what 1..1 dead. This is
the difference between
fied as the patriarchy took over-Juno being a prime destruction and devastation. Destruction is that clearing
example. In the lunar/matriarchal times she was a away, so life can be welcomed and invited to flourish.
multi-dimensional goddess who encompassed a wide Whereas devastation is the sealing off of any possible
range of activities: Juno Fortuna, Fate; Juno Lucina, advent of the future.
the Light; Juno Martialis, the Warrior-to name only When Medusa opens her mouth, this could be read as:
a few. Also, every woman had a "juno," which was the the body begins to speak, to ulcerate, to protest in all
name for her soul, just as every man had a "genius." sorts of ways from that "other place of latency" that
When the solar/patriarchal societies took over the speaks without fully knowing what it's saying. That voice
lunar/matriarchal societies, the goddesses became den- may be considered "hysterical" because it makes no claims
igrated. Juno became the jealous, hysterical wife-a for "mastery," for knowledge, for ego knowledge or epis-
bitch-figure forever raving against her husband temologies. That voice "lets go" of language as it courses
(Jupiter)'s lovers. Also, the word "genius" was re- through the subject; the subject "ventriloquizes."

152
 • AJ: Feminism has to remake the future as well as knew he was lying. So what is that ability in us which
the past- can recognize when somebody's lying?
• AR: True feminism has to investigate and encompass • AR: Certain women are worried about incursions of
biotechnics, biogenetics, and all fields of technology. A feminism into their "daily life," because they are afraid
true feminism will stop being phobic about these areas, their tricks of manipulation will be e,l:poded, thereby pav-
because it's crucial that women be involved in investigat- ing the way for nel(' (and worse) kinds of oppression.
ing, exploring and shaping the technological realities of Women's survival weapons have always been covert rather
the future. than overt, involving seduction rather than"open war-
• AJ: All of the implications of the coming bio-tech- fare" -
nological innovations have to be thoroughly analyzed:
the test tube baby (and the ownership ethics involved),
genetic manipulation, etc. As computers become more
interactive with humans, how does our language The question, "Why have we not
change? What happens when Artificial Intelligence learned to be just?" must co-appear
starts to have wider applications? What happens when
a "machine" has the capacity to make judgment calls
with questions concerning why
and to learn from its mistakes? women, racial differences, class and
If we can conceive of the "inanimate" world (that economic differences are still a
very word betrays our techno-rlUum) as a continuum problem.......- a world-wide problem.
to our "animate" world ... and "thinking machines"
(cyborgs) as a continuum to our biological bodies,
then maybe we can rethink who we are as gender, as
man and woman-as the entire planet. Then there can
be a global consciousness. • AJ: Yet seduction, secretiveness and manipulation
• AR: Historically, women have been associated with were a natural outcome of having no other options-
deviant forms of knowledge: sorcery, witchcraft, etc which basically, these were women's only power. Given a
are "the Other" to so-called "science." Even midwifery different environmental"set," a directness can emerge.
survived through the centuries as the Other to clinical I think these women's "tricks" really resulted from a
epistemology. There's always been this Other to accept- self-perpetuating cycle of socialized abuse.
ed bodies of knowledge which has been suppressed, • AR: And this is part of being "hystericized" or posi-
ignored or simply not researched. There yet exist myste- tioned into a corner, whereby you become a "trickster"
rious, uncanny technologies which have a secret relation and perform tricks in your own theater of hysteria. This
to divination; which break up classical taxonomies of experience at staging tricks and sleights-of-hand is some-
knowledge, and suspend what we think we know. Basi- thing that has permitted women, in certain situations, to
cally, all these dislocations are in the realm of the femi- become e.Jcape artitt.! - escape-ologists, even. Because in
nine. an environment in which honesty and sincerity may lead
to bodily harm -even death [e.g., Scheherezade in The
ThollJand and One Night.!i, one may be forced to take
recourse in trickery.
Destruction is that clearing away, • AJ: Honesty is a complicated word-it has to be
so life can be welcomed and invited incorporated into a paradoxical world view which ex-
to flourish. Whereas devastation is alts creativity, pleasure, fun and play. Honesty does
not have to be synonymous with dullness or plodding
the sealing off of any possible simplicity. As humans, we can create a playful mythol-
advent of the future. ogy and theater; as humans we have a need for creative
play. Honesty and truthfulness do not "exclude" the
playful use of masks, the playful use of artifice, the
playful use of technology. In Huysmans' AgailUt Na-
• AJ: What is the "feminine"? What is the "body"? ture the "hero" invents his own house, aesthetics, cus-
Residing in the body are truths that have been sedi- toms, etc. As evolved human beings, part and parcel of
mented over. In The Man Who Mutook Hu Wife for a our identity involves manipulating this wonderful
Hat, Oliver Sacks wrote about aphasiacs who couldn't world. In Mexico people take tin cans and old newspa-
proficiently comprehend verbal language, yet could pers and make beautiful, inventive artworks out of
understand body language and intent very well. They them; they create their own baroque, wonderful ex-
were watching Ronald Reagan read a serious speech pressions of creativity. If we really loved the material
on TV which they couldn't comprehend linguistical- world (which we don't), we would be creating art all
ly-yet they were laughing hysterically because they the time with our lives.•••

153
 British-born Suzy Kerr and American Dianne Malley met in 1986 and
have been fighting anti-abortion forces both on the dtreet and in their art ever
since. From the time of their first collaborative installation in Buffalo, New
York in 1987, they have endeavored to understand the roots of today's sexual
oppression by researching women artists and activists in the past, then
presenting their findings in installations or performances which utilize art,
photography and text. They place the current hysterical attack on abortion
rights in the context of the past two thousand years, arguing that the
Christian religion has alwaYd had as its goal the control of women through their
dexuality. A recent installation juxtaposed excerpts from the MalleUd
Maleficarum (the Inquisition's 1486 "Bible" used to condemn millions of
"witches" to death) with similar texts culled from the tract published by
Randall Terry's "Operation Rescue," the loose coalition of anti-abortion
religious fanatics who have tried to shut down every women's clinic in
America.
In the last five years they've organized over fifty installations and
participated in numerous street interventions as well as lecture/performance
presentations. Kerr & Malley can be contacted Shea & Bornstein Gallery,
2114 Broadway, Santa Monica CA 90404.

------_.-,.,~
~ .. ,~------

• ANDREA JUNO: Your work is a mix of art, po- Previously, we had already decided to relate the topic of
litical activism and the history of women's liberation- reproductive rights to the persecution of witches in his-
• DIANNE MALLEY: We first started doing work tory. And at our first clinic defense, there was one gentle-
that examined women's reproductive rights historically man who we've become very familiar with since-
and then related this to current issues-a historical basis • SUZY KERR: "Gentleman" is a little too polite-
is so important to understanding any subject. People • OM: That's true -Jlllg would be more like it, he was
don't feel so overwhelmed and depressed when they physically grOJJ. Anyway, he was barefoot, had a beer
realize that there have been attempts to control repro- belly, carried a bullhorn, and had a straplike harness
ductive freedoms all along. around his waist supporting this huge banner which
Our commitment sprang from the time we first began read, "Witches, Lesbians, and Basic Idiots: Repent-No
defending family planning clinics who perform abor- Choice Exists in Murder." (Another banner read, "Witch-
tions. Growing up in Philadelphia, I went to D.C. for es, Lesbians~ and RebelJ: Repent-No Choice Exists in
numerous demonstrations where everyone who was put- Murder.") And he has a van, which is his Bible-thump-
ting their bodies on the line basically agreed with one mgvan-
another. But the first time we defended a clinic, we found • SK: Which at first was just painted a regular color
ourselves face-to-face with the oppoJitwll-and that was like blue. But a few months later it had been painted
an amazing experience that affected us a lot. That's when white with orange, red and yellow flames rising to the
we both made a commitment to make our art deal with roof, and slogans like "Jesus Saves!" and "You will per-
this. ish in hell!" painted all over it-plus (of course) an

154
 Photo: Laura Aguilar
Dianne Malley & Suzy Kerr

American flag. Nowadays he climbs up on the roof and arm-m-arm with a few others and suddenly you'd be
parades around holding his massive banner. surrounded by all these religious zealots praying with
• OM: When we first saw him, we freaked out be- their rosaries. We saw people being "born again" right
cause of the "witches" connection -we had no idea any- before our eyes - cryi ng and falling down on the
one would make it so clear for us! This clinic demonstration street ...
was in an area of Los Angeles which is primarily black, • SK: And there were other characters-all men-
although most of the demonstrators were white. And thrusting huge color photographs of fetuses in your face,
they were very violent-their aggression was extreme. trying to shock you by how "awful" this is ... that thid
They would lock arms and break through your line, is what you get when you murder innocent babies ...
shoving and pushing you, screaming in your face- • OM: There were skinheads and "Bikers For Jesus,"
• AJ: What were they screaming? too-
• OM: "Lesbian witch!" or "You're gonna burn in hell!" • SK: People on "our side" got very paranoid because
• SK: People with rosaries would come and stand right a lot of the opposition looked like us - it was hard to tell
in front of you and pray directly in your face- who was who, especially when the opposing side crossed
• OM: -or try to encircle you. You'd be standing lines to get to certain areas. We started using badges so

155
 can go in or out. So the pro-choice people were trying to
beat them to it. Sometimes the clinics can afford to hire
security to keep the doors open, but it's still a battle ...
• OM: There was a sense of real absurdity as well-
some mornings people were defending clinics that weren't
even open that day!
• AJ: It's hard enough just being pregnant and need-
ing an abortion, but to have to fight to get in the door-
a lot of people couldn't even get in, right?
• OM: Yes-and would you want to walk in? Even a
determined person who believed in "the struggle" might
still be afraid that someone on the other side would do
something crazy-
• SK: Already, there's the assumption that every visi-
tor is going in for an abortion. r mean -some of them go
for very basic family planning services-
• OM: That's why calling them "abortion" clinics is off
the mark-
• AJ: When I was poor, a clinic was the only place I
could afford to go to for pap smears. Basically, these
fundamentalists are denying gynecological services to
the poor community-
• SK: These demonstrations always happen on a Sat-
urday morning, because that income group can't afford
to take time off work during the week. And we discov-
ered that basically all the clinics that had previously
performed abortions had quit-they were tired of being
picketed and boycotted, and dealing with all the trouble
that came with that. For most poor people, a private
Anti-Abortion Demonstrators. Photo: Kerr & Malley doctor is out of the question ...

we could really know who to listen to.

• OM: That first time, there was a long ramp leading ACT UP has been great in
to a basement. And 1 remember a mad scramble as peo-
ple on our side jumped ten feet down to get to the door
pushing the pro-choice people
first-so they couldn't block it. All this must have in- to be more radical-- instead of
spired absolute fear in anyone actually planning to go just defending rights that are
inside for services. slowly being chipped away,
• AJ: Well, the fundamentalists' agenda is to keep
women who want an abortion out-
pushing to expand them.
• SK: Right-their tactic is to get to a clinic first thing
in the morning and block all the entrances, so that no one

Pro-Choice Demonstrators. Photo: Kerr & Malley • OM: These anti-abortion demonstrators would go to
C":':'=,.,..,....-----------------....""..".. one clinic, decide that maybe they weren't going to be
able to shut it down, get in their cars and hit somewhere
else. On a few Saturday mornings, by 11 AM we'd been
at four sites-it was really a zoo. One particular demon-
stration led by Randall Terry [anti-abortion crusader]
was really intense-when we finally arrived, there were
twenty cops surrounding him, just to protect him. The
media were all there, and the whole street was closed off.
But now they don't hit in L.A. anymore.
• AJ: Because of your work?
• OM: Yes, and that of other pro-choice people - par-
ticularly the ones who always get up at 5 AM, which we
don't always do!

156
Anti-Abortion Demonstrators.

• AJ: Can you describe these anti-abortionists? to be more radical, because the pro-choice people basi-
• SK: For the most part they're very mainstream, white, cally only defend the rights that are being chipped away,
lower-middle class, slightly lower income, lower-educat- rather than push to &1i:pand them. And they're consis-
ed people from the suburbs-away from wherever it is tent -you see the same faces there regularly.
they're protesting. They're people who feel threatened • AJ: Well, they're also dealing first-hand with gen-
by the increase in Black, Latino, and Asian populations. uinely inten.Je issues surrounding Death. .. For
These demonstrations are usually organized by their awhile, after the '60s, it seemed like we could progress
churches, and they come out in mass groups-it's like toward deciphering even deeper concerns related to
their "work picnic." sexism and other aspects of liberation, but now things
• DM: And they bring their children - many times it's are going backwards. What are your thoughts on this?
a "family affair." • DM: Historically, we began relating the basic pre-
• SK: And they're predominantly male-there's a lot texts of the MaL/.ellJMalefirarum (also known as "The Witch-
ofyoung Jingle mell. Many are "Born Agains" rather than es' Hammer"; it was the Inquisition's "Bible"used to
churchgoers who grew up with a religion and maintained condemn witches to death) to the premises in Operation
it. It's all part of this"conversion" syndrome, and their Rescue's manual. The wording, the quotations, and the
minds are very simplistic. Even though you're instructed whole ideology turned out to be remarkably similar-
not to argue with these people, you can't help it, because • SK: Both were based on the notion of being "God's
they start baiting you and so you start to argue back- soldiers in the fight against Satan." The Operation Res-
• DM: And you try to use reasoning and find out cue manual was written in military terms: first you re-
there's no use-neither side is ever going to convince ceive training to be a soldier, then you go out on the front
each other of anything. But we all do it! You think you're lines as part of the troopJ/or God. The Maflew MafeJirarum
going to affect that one person- is more complex; its context is the Inquisition, with God's
• SK: Of course in their minds, pro-choice people are soldiers carrying out the fight against Evil and Satan's
sick deviants because we're all gay! Or so they think- influence. And the way the Inquisition defined and pin-
especially since ACT UP became involved, because they pointed what was evil was based on very superficiaL
brought in a large, conspicuously gay population that is surface signs on women, especially old women-
very good at organizing these things. In the fundamen- • DM: -as well as anyone who had connections to
talists' minds you're corrupt, you're a prostitute, you're a reproductive services or health; basically anyone who
slut-there's no room for the concept that a "regular had any folk knowledge of medicine-
person" might get pregnant and need an abortion. • AJ: During the Inquisition, male doctors attempt-
• DM: Speaking ofACT UP -they've been really great ed to assert their authority and get rid of all the
in actually being there in numbers, and in pushing people midwives-

157
 • SK: And there were other, deeper implications hav- is not available in America, particularly since USC [Uni-
ing to do with economic power-when a witch was tried versity of Southern California] was the major place where
and executed, all their property and goods were confis- research was conducted-and that was stopped. There
cated. That's why-after they'd used up all the "real" are so many problems, really.
witches, so many "regular" people were condemned. And • SK: It really pains me that our actual rights are being
I think that underneath the right wing fundamentalist diminished. Unfortunately, there's been a nasty shift in
movement are similar issues involving economic power, people's perception of women's role in breeding-
plus race - basically, they are unable to accept a chang- • OM: -like arresting mothers who are on crack. The
ing world order. powers-that-be view women as merely carrie/~1 for the
child. We saw this huge billboard of a baby born from a
crack-addict mother that said, "Don't take drugs ifyou're
pregnant." (So if you aren't pregnant, it's okay?!) But
Reproductive rights have that's the shift in the psychology.
nothing to do with nwrality.- • SK: We've been really horrified by people our age
(twenties to mid-thirties) who have become quite right
they have to do with business,
wing in their thinking, like: "It's okay for other people to
economics, medicine, and who have an abortion, but 1 would never have one." That's a
really controls it all. radical shift from the late '70s when I first became aware
of these kind of issues.
• OM: Also, Health Care should be a Number One
priority in this country, because without that, everything
• AJ: Their activity is rooted in a deep racism: that is affected - AIDS, reproduction rights, etc. It's amaz-
we don't have enough wbite babies- that we're getting ing- I was listening to a speech by Martin Luther King
too many black and Chicano babies. What percentage which could have been written ye.Jter()ay. He was saying
of these anti-abortionists are non-whites? how the war in Vietnam was a War on the Poor-
• OM: They're at least 85% white. However, in Los • AJ: There's been such a shift in people's expecta-
Angeles you will find Mexican-Americans coming out in tWflJ across the board. I grew up in the '60s and '70s
church groups, singing hymns in Spanish- convinced that you could never turn back the clock;
• AJ: Well, the white instigators know that the me- that abortion rights were Jecure. But now you see
dia would like to see that. hesitancy and confusion in women-
• OM: Absolutely. They've done a lot of Outreach;
they're very conscious of making it Look multicultural.
• SK: We went to a rally Operation Rescue staged on
the steps of City Hall, and aLI the speakers were white. A Underneath the right wing
couple of women stood up and testified about their expe-
riences as "political prisoners" (which is now how they
fundamentalist movement are
refer to jail time served for blocking clinic entrances- issues involving race and
thatJ a political prisoner?!) One of the women had thir- economic power. Basically,
teen children and was expecting her fourteenth. In her they are unable to accept a
speech she urged the crowd to go back home and procre-
ate, because, "We need more soldiers!"
changing world order.
• OM: She was unbelievable. "God" had told her she
should have 15 children, and even though she was hav-
ing morning sickness that day, God had wiLled it and she
was going to give her talk. She LiteraLly told people to go • SK: 'Tm all for women's rights, but I'm not a femi-
home, fuck, and have babies-it was really scary. nist myselfl" -that's the other line you hear all the time
What's most frightening is all the ways reproductive now. Or, "Of course women should be paid equal money,
rights in this country are being chipped away right noll'. but-ugh, these JeminI.Jt.J1" As though economics and
People have focused on the issue of abortion and access liberty were completely unrelated! The right wing is
to clinics, but meanwhile other rights are evaporating, really successful at keeping all these issues separate, so
such as the right to have access to RU-486, or to have a there appears to be no unifying philosophy or overview.
midwife. For black women in many rural areas of the It's not surprising that people see AIDS as quite separate
South-there's no doctor available ifyou have no money. from reproductive rights, environmental issues, and so
The state of health care in this country is outrageous. I on.
think that for most black communities the agenda is still • AJ: Also, economic issues are not perceived as
healthy babies and not abortion -that's why you still see being fundamental-
less people of color in the pro-choice movement, and this • OM: As though the Gulf War had nothing to do with
is not being addressed. And it's outrageous that RU-486 economics-it was all about "defending freedom."

158
 • AJ: The issues of re-
productive rights and
our health care system
are about economics - it's
totally class warfare-
• OM: We've tried to
examine reproductive
rights in relation to how
States use them to further
militaristic and imperial-
istic aims. And it's amaz-
mg-
• SK: Historically, wo-
men's reproductive rights
have always been given or
taken away to increase or
decrease population
growth, especially after
major wars. In France in
the early '20s or Germany
during World War II, Photo: Kerr & Malley

abortion was illegal be-

cause the population had been decimated and they need- and manipulated -at the mercy of the State.
ed to replenish it immediately. On the other hand, in this • AJ: And in both the East and the West there's a
country sterilization has been used to control the growth continuing dearth of feminine medical knowledge-
of certain ethnic groups such as Puerto Ricans- does anyone fund studies of PMS, or P.LD. (pelvic
• AJ: That's another major issue that's downplayed. inflammatory disease) which kills literally thousands
Even in San Francisco (which supposedly is an en- yearly?
lightened city) ifyou speak Spanish or if you're black, • OM: Right. At UCLA we've been researching the
one of the first questions you're asked is, "Would you history of medical illustrations that depict abortion, giv-
like to be sterilized?" But that's never mentioned if
you're white. Kerr & Malley's artwork-inspired by the photo above.
• OM: Absolutely. And it's not easy to find historical
records tracing any of this. In the past there have been
some odd situations: for example, the Black Panthers
were very much against some reproductive rights be-
cause they were emphasizing the idea of "power in num-
bers." It's depressing to see how both the Left and the
Right have used reproductive rights agaifldt women.
• SK: In America, there's an underlying assumption
that there shouldn't be many black (or Hispanic, etc)
women having children because they don't have the intel-
ligence to figure out what's best for themselves, and they
don't have the economic resources to raise these families
after they've had them.
• OM: The Soviet Union provides a really clear-cut
example of reproductive rights being given and taken
away according to the whims of the State.
• AJ: I read that essentially there is no birth control
over there. They have these metal diaphragms that
don't work, condoms that break easily, but the prevail-
ing attitude is: "It's just a woman's body-they can get
an abortion." So they have hundreds of free abortion
clinics-most women will have ten abortions in their
lifetime. They've taken things to an opposite extreme,
but it reflects the same repressiveness-
• OM: Exactly. You have the "freedom" to have a
hundred abortions - but you're still just being controlled

159
ing birth, caesarean sections, etc. And they're very re- active mail-order businesses became in violation of the
vealing. Then we moved on to examine certain women in law, because through his efforts birth control was de-
history who had been abortionists and had been perse- clared "obscene." And Comstock's law literally wasn't
cuted for their activities. We discovered Madame Rest- taken off the books till the 1970s, so we see the effect one
ell, who was an abortionist in New York City throughout zealot can have! He personally made the citizen's arrest
the latter half of the 19th century- of Madame Restell, posing as a man who wanted some
pills for his wife.
• SK: And she ended up committing suicide rather
than facing trial and going to prison for the rest of her
Dr. Madeleine Pelletier, an life.
abortionist, dressed in men's • OM: This was when the medical establishment be-
gan taking medicine out of hands of lay people and
suits and had short cropped hair, legislating all sorts of laws against abortion and birth
but actually was never known to contro\' where previously there had been none. Histori-
have lovers of either sex. Her cally, this is another instance of how reproductive rights
theory was: society did not grant have nothing to do with morality-they have to do with
business, economics, medicine, and who really controls it
an ambitious woman the all.
flexibility to have an • SK: The other woman we focused on was Madame
autonomous sexual identity. Pelletier, who was born in France in 1874 to a very poor
family. Her parents had a grocery business, and she had
to quit school at the age of eleven. Nevertheless, she
managed to educate herself; she became the first woman
doctor in France, while simultaneously becoming in-
• SK: Her real name was Anne Loehmann. She start-
volved in politics-
ed selling abortion pills by mail order. Of course they
• OM: -which wel'e socialist, anarchist, Marxist-
didn't work -none of those pills did at that time. They all
she was really radical.
contained a combination of ingredients that made you so
• SK: She published journals and attempted to influ-
sick to your stomach, you would probably go into shock!
ence political elections. She started writing novels to
These pills were in principle similar to other early self-
express her beliefs, then decided to practice what Jhe
abortion methods: drinking coffee containing bits of
preacheJ-so she became an abortionist.
lead, eating ground-up black beetles, or ingesting
mercury compounds ...
• OM: We began compiling lists of methods used his-
torically to induce abortions. We did an installation with
photographs arranged in the shape of crosses, with phras-
es like: "jumping off chairs," "throwing yourself down-
Dr. Madeleine Pelletier believed in
stairs," "a basket of yams" -all these "techniques" that the necessity of violence to further
we found reference to. The title of the show was "Milk of her cause. One of her favorite
Another Woman," a method which guaranteeJ an abor- quotations was, uFeminism can
tion!
Anyway-Madame Restell became very wealthy and
never go too £ar. "
opened an offlce in Manhattan. After finding out that the
pills didn't work, women would come in for a more
conventional treatment-be jabbed inside and have an
abortion that way. Her downfall came about because she
flaunted her wealth; she bought a carriage and horses
and rode around New York dressed in her finery- • OM: She was really amazing-looking. She dressed
in men's suits and had short cropped hair, but actually
• SK: She was arrested several times but managed to
avoid being sentenced until she was entrapped by An- was never known to have lovers of either sex. Her theory
thony Comstock, who made a citizen's arrest- was: society did not grant an ambitious woman the flexi-
• OM: Anthony Comstock was the early 20th century bility to have an autonomous sexual identity. She pre-
equivalent of Randall Terry. He was a self-appointed ferred comrades who were not bothered by the illegality
moral crusader who inaugurated the Post Office obscen- of her activities-
ity laws. He collected thousands of obscene drawings • SK: And she believed in the necessity of violence to
and photographs-he even went into art schools and further her cause. One of her favorite quotations was,
confiscated any nudes he found. Of course abortion was "Feminism can never go too far."
his biggest target, but anything relating to birth control • OM: She was active alongside other suffragettes and
was also attacked. As a result Restell and others who had political organizers throughout Europe then. But after

160
Dr Madeleine Pelletier, 1874-1939.faiieLMe de.! ange.! (maker ofangelJ), 1990
Kerr & Malley, Karl Bornstein Gallery, Santa Monica, CA

she started practicing abortion, she was arrested. When which are being pulled at by hands labeled "A," "B," "C,"
she went to trial at the age of 50, she had already had a etc. And a rope is attached to the forceps at a diagonal
stroke and half of her body was paralyzed, so the judge like it's going across the whole room, tied to a post and
deemed her unfit to stand trial and incarcerated her in a pulling down-
mental asylum where she died. • DM: That medical illustration was very telling!
• SK: One of her novels is The Education of GirlJ which • SK: Then we found an amazing illustration of an
she wrote in French - it hasn't been translated yet ... angel-but a warrior angel-who's emptying a basket
She was really amazing. down onto Earth of babies who are being born as sol-
• AJ: What are you working on now? diers -they already have on little helmets and uniforms
• DM: We want to deal much more concretely with as they float down! It's the wildest illustration.
the relationship between reproductive rights and States' • AJ: Do you think there's a link between the resur-
control to further their militaristic and imperialistic gains. gence of anti-abortionists (and even anti-birth control
• SK: We recently did a silkscreen print diptych utiliz- sentiments), and the revival of the warmongering men-
ing two found images: a mass graveyard in Northern tality?
France from the first and second World Wars -just rows • SK: Yes -add to that the inability to address AIDS,
and rows of crosses over the unnamed dead, and a sec- too, because all of this is outside "traditional family val-
ond image of Nazi soldiers goose-stepping. These were ues."
overlaid with a medical illustration of a woman giving • DM: "48 Hours" [TV Show] filmed a whole day in
birth- boot camp which ended with a Marine's wife giving
• DM: -or having an abortion. It's from the waist birth. A man in a white surgeon's gown turns around and
down, and her legs are being pulled apart by men's hands underneath he's wearing fatigues. And before they even
(you see a hand, a bit of cuff from a white shirt and a suit show what sex the child is, they say, "It's a boy! We'd
jacket) ... there's at least four sets of arms in the pic- love our son to be a doctor or a lawyer - but maybe he'll
ture- be a Marine, like his dad!"
• SK: And these huge forceps are going into her womb, • AJ: Another thing I wanted to talk about was: you

161
gain a real sense of power when you mobilize and status quo landscape. But still, people need a sense of
actually get some results-you did help push the fun- empowerment, because right now America feels like
damentalists out of L.A. People feel so helpless most those communist countries where apathy and lethargy
of the time-they don't think their actions can affect reign, because everyone knows the government is so
anything- corrupt ...
• SK: I think people immediately get a sense of accom- • DM: Some pro-choice people have felt such intense
plishment. But then there is no political party in this hatred and violence toward anti-abortionists that they've
country which you can become involved with to take had to reassess their own deepest philosophical bases.
things}ltrther. This absence is discouraging-people's en- Recently someone remarked, "You see these people week
ergy, motivation and interest just dissipates. So a mobili- after week and you're ready to o(/,Ih their heads in! How
zation can accomplish something, but it's very short-term do you channel that anger?" A lot of people are at a loss
because it's dependent on new people continually turn- as to how to deal with this-
ing out in massive n·umbers. • AJ: That feeling is common to any "Dispossessed
Others." If you're black, where do you channel the
daily dose of racism you encounter on every level?
And as a woman, you're constantly being buffeted-
• SK: There's a certain glamour to demonstrating in
We want to deal much more public that attracts people -the emotional rllJh that comes
concretely with the relationship from being in a big crowd. But it may be more produc-
tive to do something like speak out at your local Board of
between reproductive rights and
Supervisors' meetings, because so few people bother to
States' control to further their turn out for them. And because that seems more like
militaristic and imperialistic gains. drudgery, it's vel}' hard to commit to it.
• DM: But I think demonstrations are good -if they
do nothing more than motivate the people who attend
them. When I was in school. attending a demonstration
could be a high that sustained your morale for months
• DM: What's most discouraging is how our abortion afterwards!
rights are being chipped away at by people we elected • AJ: How do you see the future?
who claimed they were pro-choice! • SK: Political content has come back in a serious way
• SK: You can elect someone to power who says they're into artists' work. Meanwhile. the system of government,
pro-choice, but then they will assign money to programs corporate and foundation funding of the arts is being
as they see fit. . eroded very fast.
• AJ: Well, it's a fallacy to think we're in a democra- • AJ: Things are getting a lot tougher; things are
cy, because it's not a democracy-the vote is mind- going to be really bad doon.
controlled by ad agencies hired by corporations or • SK: We need more politicized art, and I think the
other monied interests (and it's not like we can elect place for it is not in the galleries but in publications, TV
the corporate heads who have a direct effect on our and movies. Because people do not go to galleries. You
financial, environmental and daily life). For decades can do Outreach until you're up to your ears, but people
there's been a pervasive sense of power!eJdneJd which don't relate to it-it doesn't touch their lives.
has had a snowball effect. Yet people still can effect • AJ: Do you have any hope?
change-just the threat of NOW boycotting Idaho • DM: I have hope (tentatively), but it may not be
potatoes (when they were about to pass that law re- because things are getting better. I just happen to be an
pealing abortion in Idaho) changed things totally optimist.
around! I think the Women's movement was strength- • AJ: Yeah-against all reason!
ened by that. • DM: I have hope, because I do see Issues being
• DM: One hopes that in the '90s people have awak- discussed, debated and questioned. I think women have
ened from the sleep of the '80s. Another problem is that a to align their struggle with the struggle against racism -
lot of people who were active previously aren't sure what which in turn is connected to all these other struggles,
to do anymore. I hear people saying, "No more demon- like ecology and economic justice. And I think enough
strations - that's not working!" A lot of people want to women now are at a point where they aren't going to let
do Jomething-but they don't know ,phat. any of these issues just Ji.Jappear. There are enough schol-
• AJ: That's the problem-the control system is so ars, researchers and historians uncovering crucial wom-
savvy. It's like the Pillsbury Doughboy-no matter en's history who know how important their work is for
where you punch, it just absorbs the shock. It's true the benefit of the next generation. History that is never
that demonstrations in front of the federal building reported and never read, just doesn't exist! • • •
against the Gulf War really have become part of the

162
 Sapphire is a New York writer whose poems and short stories describe
tragic, intense and unforgettable experiences ... while not abandoning a
sense of visionary hope. In performance her presence is electrifying as she
reads with a clear, beautiful voice. Her classic poem "American Dreams"
vividly evokes the nightmare of our contemporary social landscape, while
"Mickey Mouse Was a Scorpio" skillfully interweaves icons from our common
childhood with the reality of incest trauma.
Sapphire lived in Los Angeles, San Francisco and elsewhere before moving
to New York City. Although she has been published in several anthologies
and poetry journals, her uncompromising writings deserve much wider
publication. Sapphire can be contacted c/o PO Box 975, Manhattanville
Station, NY NY 10027.

- - - - - - -...""'~r~ ~------

• ANDREA JUNO: What are some ofyour themes? accepted." And really, what this is about is betilg LOileJ-
• SAPPHIRE: My peom "American Dreams" delves trying to find love through achieving this ideal. Yet this
into the l7l11tilatwll that society makes us go through - the ideal is nothing that reflects you or could elJer reflect
"never being good enough" syndrome -which is also called you-if you're black, you can never be white! And if
the "addiction to perfection". That's what surgical alter- you're a female, you can lift weights forever and still look
ation of people's bodies is about: you have an ideal in like a woman - so for all your energy to go toward trying
your mind which you keep trying to achieve by the most to achieve maleness is sad. Not wrong-just sad. Be-
destructive means-you cut off a piece of your nose, or cause there's so much else to do.
insert some silicone in your cheekbones. Watching some- • AJ: People have internalized self-hatred and they
one like Michael Jackson totally alter his face in search don't realize bow alienated they are from their true
of an "ideal" forces you to question this society. selves, their creativity and their power. We're all get-
Somehow there's a basic premise set up in people that ting mowed over-
they will never be good enough. Lifetimes are spent • S: It's all about power. If you love yourself, then you
pursuing the perfect body and the perfect face. This just don't give your power away to people who hate you and
seems so sad in the light of more pressing concerns: that want to annihilate you. I think that's what bealiag is
on the brink of the destruction of Western culture, peo- about: finding that person buried inside us who can
ple's energy would go into trying to obtain the perfect stand up to oppressive authority.
IlO.le. It would be nice if this would just happen and be • AJ: Let's talk about your background-
done with, but-Michael Jackson has had hundreds of • S: I was born to an army family in Fort Ord, a
operations; this is something ongoing- military base near Monterey, California. My early child-
• AJ: It's also a WASP ideal. M.ichael Jackson wants hood was spent on army bases in California, Texas and
to be one of the "Brady Bunch," eliminating all traces Europe. I was eleven when 1 moved to South Philadel-
of bis blackness- phia with my mother; my father went back to Germany
• S: Exactly; it's all related to Jeep .le(f-batreJ. This keeps and stayed there. Living on army bases was alienating
a lot of people's energy and creativity .lappeJ. The very enough for white children - but for a black child it was
forces that could be harnessed to fight fascism and impe- l'ery alienating. This lacked the benefits of middle-class
rialism are being drained off into "fitting in" and "being alienation -I wasn't in the suburbs getting a great edu-

165
 Photo: Chris Buck

cation. The whites in the army were underclass/working- here I was in the heart of fascism. My father would leave
class whites (they weren't middle-class), and the blacks the dinner table saying he was going out on "war maneu-
were people who couldn't make a living on the "out- vers" just like other fathers might say, ''I'm going to do
side" -they'd joined the army out of desperation. There some work at the office." Beyond my school playground
was a real feeling that people were in flight from econom- was a mock battlefield; while school was in session the
ic deprivation of all kinds. Army would be practicing field maneuvers and war
It wasn't a "Be All You Can Be" mentality; it was for games! Every week we had to rehearse diving under the
people who had been beaten by society and now just desk in case of enemy attack-shit like that! So I grew
wanted some economic security. Very little was available up thinking that's just the way life wtZ.t: that tanks rolling
culturally; it was a Donna RaJ/Father KnowJ BeJt ambi- through the village was normal ...
ence-I remember not being exposed to anything real. I • AJ: This was in the '50s?
grew up during the birth of Tupperware and TV -just • S: Yes, I was born in 1950. Besides Fort Ord, I lived
real shallow bullshit. We lived in a little house that was on an army base in Germany. After the War a lot of
part of a G. 1. housing project. working-class Germans, desperate for jobs, came into
At the same time I had no illusions about America- soldiers' homes to dust and clean -our housecleaner was

164
 Poetry hy Sapphire
MICKEY MOUSE WAS A SCORPIO this can't be true
M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-E
the night was no light, mother is house (we have a nice house, California
black. ranch style)
he came in brother is the nail we drive thru your heart
light cracking the night do it
stuck in the doorway do it to her brother
of dark M-I-C-K-E-Y M-O-U-S-EEE
deep hard. mouse is in the house
my father, running thru
lean in blue & white pajamas, myvagma
wild ignorant farm boy & out my nose.
throws my pajama bottoms saucer eyed buck tooth child
to the pigs, Betsy Wetsy
grabs me by my little skinny knees brown bones
& drives his dick in. electrocuted.
I scream
Tiny Tears
I scream
that never dry
no one hears except my sister who becomes hop scotch
no one cause she didn't hear hickory dock
years later i become no one cause it didn't the mouse fell off
happen the clock,
but it's night now & it's happening the farmer takes Jill down the well
a train with razor blades for wheels is riding & all the king's horses
thru myasshole & all the king's men
iron hands saw at my knees can't put that little girl together again.
i'm gonna die crooked man
i'm gonna die crooked man
blood, semen & shit gush from my cracked ass pumpkin eater
my mother comes in when it's over to wash me childhood stealer.
glad not to be the one,
she is glad glad
satanic glad.
she brings her hand up from between my legs & Excerpt from AMERICAN DREAMS
smears shit, semen & blood over my mouth,
"Now she'll know what it's like to have a One time when I was a little girl living on an army base
baby," she says. I was in a gymnasium & the general walked in.
drugged night so black & the general is like god or the president, if you believe.
you could paint with it, The young woman supervising said,
no moon no stars no god "Stand up everybody! The general's here!"
the night stick smashes my spinal cord Everybody stood up except me.
my legs, The woman looked at me & hissed,
bleeding bandages of light, "Stand up for the general!"
fall off, I said, "My father's in the army, not me."
let me go & remained seated.
let me go & throughout 38 years of
don't tell me about god & good little girls bucking & winging
i want to live grinning & crawling
i want to live brown nosing & begging
my cells crack open like glass there has been a quiet
my bells are tolling for me I 0 year old in me
my name disintegrates in the night who has remained seated.
God's a lie She perhaps is the real American dream.

165
a Nazi. Both my parents had been in World War fl, and So in some kind of way [ wasn't totally destroyed. I
we had books describing the horrors of the camps which guess that's the nature of a dysfunctional family: on
I had read as a little girl- I'd learned how to read early. the one hand, they tried to kill and destroy everything
For whatever reasons - perhaps because my parents were I was; and on the other hand, they-in little pieces-
wholeheartedly econom ic victims - there was a facade of gave that back.
belief which they played out to the end; a certain kind of • AJ: Perhaps they recognized, in a way, that they
patriotism. Of course there was no talk of dissent. were fodder. You have to be very courageous to go
Nevertheless, there was a deep "place" in them that against society-
didn't beliepe. J remember being sent home from the First • S: Especially without any support. I'm sure people
Grade because [ wouldn't stand up for the Pledge of around them weren't saying, "War is wrong," but some-
Allegiance. On the way home I was preparing myself for how 1 feel they kllell', and that must have contributed to
a beating-certain things you got beat for (for example, their self-hatred - participating in a system like that. My
my mother put all this energy into making dresses like mother never told me, but one time she was talking to my
those bitches wore back then on Father KIlOll'" Bed/ and ex-lover about when America dropped the first atomic
the DOllna Reed Sholl', and to mess those up meant a beat- bomb, and how the Army had lied to them. So in 1986
ing). I was an impulsive talker, so to get a note sent home when my mother was dying of leukemia, I asked if per-
that [ wouldn't stop talking also meant a beating. haps her cancer was related to being exposed to atomic
war games in the '40s when she was in the army. She lay
there for a minute and said, "[ just really don't know.
They never told us the truth about ally/hin.g. "Later r put
it all together: no one in our family had ever had leuke-
Deep delf-hatred keeps a lot of mia-yet out of nowhere carne this leukemia that killed
her.
people's energy and creativity For the first ] 0 years of my life, my parents were
dapped. The very forces that functioning under severe "post-traumatic stress." My fa-
could be harnessed to fight ther had been incarcerated as a prisoner-of-war in Ger-
fascism and imperialism are many (1 never got the full story). He and my mother
married in the army; r know that after Germany fell my
being drained off into "fitting mother had to guard Nazi prisoners, then she got preg-
."
m and ULuemg
• accepte d". nant and went straight from active duty into '50s Fanta-
syland with these bouffant dresses, trying to raise kids.
• AJ: Was your father brutal to your mother?
• S: Later r found out that he had been, but] never./all'
it. We were one of the few black families on the base. My
I was walking home very slowly, knowing I was going father had distinguished himself in the War, and he and
to get beaten for not reciting the Pledge of Allegiance my mother really played out a role. My mother is a
... but when I got home, as trivial and petty as my beautiful woman and very social; they did a lot of enter-
parents could be, my mother read the note and didn't say taining-there was a lot of front going on. Later she
allYthing. Then my father came in (he was a regular rage- confided, "He beat me." Even though r didn't see the
aholic) and the two of them whispered ... and nothing beatings, I did see a coldness and distancing, a ridicule
else was said! I went back to, school the next day and still and disdain she displayed toward him. I never saw any
didn't stand up, and the teacher didn't bother me. So, in brutality, but now r know it existed.
all of their nothingness, in all of the damage my parents My father played the role of the "good parent," but he
did, and in all their oppressiveness, in some way they had been abused by his parents and he passed this legacy
made a space for me to be this rebel! Given who they on to me. Also he was a split personality and could
were, they should have killed me! It was kind of like: change abruptly-while we were going for a "drive in
letting that part of me lipe, because they had killed it in the country" he would suddenly turn into a monster. And
themselves. So on that issue, they left me alone. my sexual abuse happened when I was very young: there
I remember another time me and my siblings (we were was no fondling or touching-it was a brutal rape, and
all raised Catholic) sat down and decided we were no then it was like it had neper happened. It was very war-like.
longer going to attend church. Again, [ was waiting for a Ha ve you ever read The COllra.ge to Heal by Ellen Bass?
beating. I hadn't yet realized that my parents were dy,,- It's a book for rape survivors, and in the back are person-
functional,· I still thought that getting a beating for break- al testimonies. I read them all-you know how you're
ing a glass "made sense." Anyway, we came in and always looking for your own story? I really couldn't
announced, "We don't want to go to church anymore!" relate until] carne to one woman whose father had been a
and to my surprise, my father replied, "You have an Colonel in the Army. They had lived a "normal" life
absolute right not to go to church anymore" -he was (whatever that meant; everything was "peachy-keen")
talking like a liberal or something. until one day he came up to her room (she was 3 years

166
old; catatonic expression
on her face) and raped
her. He was a surgeon. He
split her body apart, and
then without anesthesia,
sewed her back up ...
left the room, washed his
hands, and JaW it neller hap-
pened. Denied it 'til the day
he died, and life went on
"as usual." And that was
similar to my experience.
Some women describe
their abuse as a "relation-
ship": on-going, "Daddy's
little girl," with ice cream
and presents almost to
adulthood. But mine was
really a Dr Jekyll/Mr
Hyde thing in the middle
of the night. And nothing
happened; it was a lifetime
of denial for my father. He
never ever on any level
copped to what he had
done.
• AJ: This was all part
of a cycle of abuse. He
was abused, so he
abused you. Incidental-
ly, "pedophile" wasn't
even in the dictionary
until recently ...
• S: All I can say is: the
level of awareness I had
to ascend to, in order to
accept what had hap-
pened, was conJllInmate.
He and my mother di-
vorced; I lived with him
afterward as a teenager,
and he never bothered me.
Nothing ever happened
again. So: Number One,
he was a real pedophile-
Photo, Chris Buck
I understand that now.
And that's not a common
pattern among black men:
to focus on the under-six-year-old. (My sister also had it's almost like I'm shoved back into being a little girl,
memories of sexual abuse, independent and separate from having to smile, function, and go along with the murder-
mine.) 1 first began to suspect my father had abused me ers-hold hands with the perpetrators. But when I'm
when I wrote my poem "Mickey Mouse" in which I felt writing, I know that they've dropped napalm on little
compe/Leo to use the word "pedophile" in connection with children in Iraq and that they've polluted the water for
him. And this revelation is part of the reason why 1 trust centuries to come and that the earth will never be right
my writing so deeply! 1 believe in it, because that's when again. ThatJ when I know the truth -when I'm writing.
the memories first surfaced - from the writing. But the rest of the time, life looks like my family in
When I'm writing, I know what lies are-I know that photos from the '50s. We had a new Chrysler, wall-to-
Bush and all these "leaders" are murderers. Other times wall carpeting and life looked pretty good, e.wept. . .

167
this man came into my room at night and almost killed Of course, within the white community there was a
me ... then left, and the next morning we had pancakes refusal to see these young males as children, a refusal to
for breakfast. see them as human beings. They kept calling them "dogs"
Early childhood experiences shape the way we look at or "animals" because that's much easier than thinking,
the world. Many times I've had to descend into the heart "Here's a human being who's been so damaged by society
of oark./1e.l.l or plunge deep into the heart of society in that at 12 years old he's a murderer." If you call him an
order to seize some dark truth or insight. Other times, "animaL" then he's totally ('esponsible for his behavior:
I'm back chewing bubble-gum or whatever, so it hasn't "He grew up in a vacuum; he has a genetic coding that
always been a consistent, clear view for me. But when makes him crawl on 4 legs and bark," as opposed to: "he
things get clear-it's through my writing. When people was a little baby, just like that jogger was a little baby
tell me my writing's powerful and that it goeJ to the core- once, yet by the time he was 12 his life was so llothill.9 that
that's what they're talking about. The rest of the time my all he had was rage, anger and the urge to kil!. "So those
mind can dwell in a world of illusion, but that other side were some of the operative thoughts in that piece.
is pretty strong, and it keeps pushing me through the
illusion.
To me, more than any other time, the '50s was the
wor[O of il[wwn -just horrible. In no other era had such
pallid and ugly denial existed, where the men came home
to these women on tranquilizers, and these houses with Early childhood experiences
lawns, and forgot all that war. And World War II was an shape the way we look at the
ugly war-yet they were able to couch it in righteous- world. Many times I've had to
ness - able to shift the burden of the holocaust onto the
Germans, rather than look at what we did.
descend into the beart of darlcne.:M
The '50s were simply the biggest whitewash you've or plunge deep into the heart of
ever seen. And look what it produced -that's where society in order to seize some
Reagan and Bush came out of. That's what I grew up in, dark truth or insight.
and a lot of that informs my writing: "Mickey Mouse,"
"American Dreams," and even a recent poem like "Rab-
bit Man" is still coming out of that era: trying to see
through water all the way down to the depths where
truth dwells ...
• AJ: We all know we're being lied to; that's why The first time I read this poem was to a group of black
people love your insights- mothers with children who had been in jail. I thought
• S: Unless they blatantly misunderstand me, most peo- they were going to crucify me; I thought I was setting
ple are appreciative of my work. I wrote my "Wilding" myself up to have rotten eggs thrown at me ... but they
poem about an incident which took place in October, were very quiet and very appreciative-I was really
1988, where 40-50 black and Hispanic males were run- shocked. Interestingly, the few people who ever gave me
ning through Central Park attacking people. They at- static about this poem were people totally removed from
tacked a guy on a bicycle, they were throwing stones at it - I remember a couple of white women coming up to
people -a male rampage was going on. They came across me and saying, "We just think that poem's horrible!"
a female jogger and raped her and beat her almost to • AJ: Like, "Don't talk about horrible things!"
death -evidently when they found the body, three-fourths • S: Yeah. But whenever I've read it to actual people
of her blood was gone, her skull had been fractured- who could've been involved in something like that, I've
they thought she was going to die. She's .lti/[ brain-dam- never had people go into nutsvilJe or denial. I was trying
aged; she has double-vision so that for the rest of her life to enter into the heart of this darkness, but a [iping heart
when she looks at someone, she sees two people; when ... and just present what I had seen. As a poet I go
there's two people, she sees four. And her memory is where my heart and soul takes me; I still may not have a
never going to be right, even though she returned to her totally accurate analysis of all the class issues within the
job. But she survived because of her wil[ -she was sup- black community-maybe people can nitpick one or two
posed to die; these kids evidently meant to kill her. things. I remember Audre Lorde commenting that I
I felt there was a lot of denial on both sides, so I wrote needed to do a deeper analysis of "the mother" ... but
a poem about that. I felt some black people were denying in general the response was: "Go with it-go further!
that these kids were murderers: it own't happen, it was You're on the right track!"
false arrest, they were jacked-up, they're making "too big • AJ: You were taking on the persona of a "wild-
a thing of it" -just all kinds of weird denial like that- ing" boy in a very honest way. There was a lot of
• AJ: Because there iJ a racist interpretation there- brutality there, but the attackers were human beings.
• S: Exactly. And people do get arrested falsely for all Was it cathartic for you to look at the world through
these things. Yet somehow this just wasn't the case here. their eyes?

168
 • S: It was neceJJary for me. Number One, I couldn't victim role; her story shows how we play all roles.
view this group like I did my father/victimizer. I was These are role.•, that's all. \Ve are people and we will
viewing them through the eyes of a woman old enough to play out these roles. As much as those children learned in
be their mother; at the time I was teaching kids their age. one mle to be a victim, and went on to play out their
I was looking at potential lost and denied; I was looking other role as victimizer - neither of them is necessarily
at kids who -there was no doubt in my mind, would do who they are. They're not animals, they're human beings
something like that. I couldn't distance myself the way who chose a certain way to deal with their oppression.
people "downtown" could; I was liking the horrible little For me, one of the ways out of oppression is to find all of
sexist bastards. Some of them I was even loping; I could my selves. And part of myself was this Oppressor.
see why a few mothers needed so badly to say," ot Illy That was when r came out of denial: when I realized
son!" I could see what was good in them, and I could ze (and I had blocked it for years) that when I was a child I
them being destroyed by the culture they lived in. was going to stick a lit cigarette up a eat's ass. r thought:
This was very different from looking at adult black "So this is lIZe? lin into peace; 1'111 a pacifist; I'm into
men, because I was realizing that adult men (black or talleing it Ollt. " And if this is what I was going to do, no
otherwise) have a choia. Children don't have a choice. As wonder my father did what he did. And my father had
a child, once the pattern of victimization is in you- been through two wars, not one: World War II and the
unless you have therapy, or unless you are one of "God's Korean War ... under fire, in the trenches. So-of
Chosen" (some children have awareness at a very early cOllr,'e he did it. There's nothing else a person who's been
age, but most don't), then you are a victim. There was no su bjected to that type of stress can do. That's part of why
other way I could look at those kids but as victims- rape is encouraged on the battlefield - rape and drugs
victims who were leiller,l. are encouraged. That's part of how soldiers can deal with
I think I was able to enter into this subject with the stress of battle. Yeah - my father did that-
empathy. When I was writing, I could feel myself run- • AJ: The military eroticizes violence and killing-
ning-I was feeling what is denied women. Here's this • S: Exactly, and they view their own death as a big,
white middle-class jogger who's "free" to run through the heroic orgasm. Finding that darkness in me made me able
park, and here are these black males who are free to run to clearly see it in other people.
through the park ... yet very few black women are
going to leave Harlem and go running anywhere, because
we wouldn't even make it to the fuckin' park-you know
what I mean? So I didn't have what either of them had,
but I could feel it - that joy of just running.
And I could feel the camaraderie of that gang (50 of Incestuous abuse is the
them), with the moon full in Scorpio that night. I could underpinning for our culture-
just feel them throbbing and running ... the joy of this is what we're built on.
blood on their hands - it wasn't like a judgment or any-
We're a rape culture.
thing. And the feeling was: knowing that I could have
done that, too. It just so happened that the nature of my
"acting out" as a teenager did not include that type of
thing-and I'm not a male.
• AJ: And as a female you're not even given that
form to express yourself in- • AJ: As a child you were doing a symbolic act;
• S: If I had tried to get out there and run, they would weren't you also raped in the ass, too?
have raped me -I would have been the first rape they • S: Exactly; it was a repetition for me. When that hap-
discarded at the corner, before they went on to rape their pened to me, I had no frame of reference-anal sex had
"real" love. But ... I could feel it. I wasn't looking not been part of my sexual behavior; it was like it was
through a microscope; r felt I'd merged with them-that coming from nowhere. And not only was I going to pene-
while I was writing I llIaJ that kid; r ilia,! that anger; and I trate this animal but I was going to I'lolently penetrate it.
"'aJ that jogger. That's what I was trying to do. Now why didn't I think to tear its legs off, or chop its
• AJ: This is an incredibly healthy process that wom- head off? Why did I automatically proceed to that behav-
en need to do: to be able to really underdtand the ior? Well, I really do believe that the compuLlLon to repeat is
feelings of their oppressor, their enemy. Because in not just psychological-it's almost coded into your neu-
the setting up of these polarities, power is given to the roreceptor senses, and on a certain trigger you will act
oppressor. Both parties-victim and victimizer-are out that behavior again.
dim.inished by this scheme. So it's important to work So, it was really/reeing to see what I was doing; what
yourself out of either identification. had happened to me. I realized who I was and what I was
• S: Exactly; that freezes you in your victimization. And capable of doing-I was just a woman who had been
that's what I think is so powerful in Alice Walker's work raped, and this was what I would do to a fucking cat. So
(The Color Purple). She refuses to freeze black people into a what would a man do to a 1lI0man-you know what I

169
 er than the other
slaves?" and some-
body would say, "Be-
cause the Master's
your daddy!" Then
you might get an ex-
tra lump of sugar at
Christmastime, and
by the time you're 14
and have some
breasts, here comes
daddy to fuck you!
One of my great-
grandfathers was a
slave. In the '90s, most
black people are 5 or
6 generations out of
slavery; I'm three. My
father's father was a
sharecropper who ev-
Photo, Chris Buck idently was psychot-
ic - all the other
mean? Society is not even for abusing animals, but they people would be out there doing their slavery routine,
are for abusing women, and they tell men, "This is your but my grandfather would be out there receiving visions
property; do what you want with it." from "God" (not "good" visions, but visions telling him to
Now it's easier for me to see things like that and go hit someone over the head). He brutalized his family;
understand that we're a culture built on this type of he wasn't all there.
abuse. I don't go anywhere and listen to women and • AJ: Of course, how could anyone enslaved have
think that they're ly-
ing; I believe it is only
40% who remember
their child abuse ...
and far from what
we're taught (that this
tears the family apart),
actually it seems to
hold it together! So we
have this archetype of
the incestuous or dys-
functional family: the
alcoholic father com-
ing home from work-
ing in the factory who
rapes everybody ...
Incestuous abuse is the
unJerpinning for our
culture-this is what
we're built on. U7e're a
rape cuLture.
I'm also working
on how for black peo- Photo, Chris Buck
ple, this incest dates
back to slavery. From the very beginning, the Master been "all there"?
would come and fuck the "bitch" and she would have • S: So, early on: instead of the pattern his neighbors
the baby, and later he would come back and fuck that acted out (womanizing or alcoholism), madness was part
baby. However he was able to dissociate himself, never- of my heritage. This was a direct result of some kind of
theless the chiLJ knew: "That's my daddy!" Maybe the ilZl'a.Jwn. When people talk about slavery, it took me
child would look around and ask, "How come I'm light- understanding my life around gay people to realize how

170
one-sided the picture
was ... to realize:
"Hey, if the Master
was strolling through
the field and spotted
Caledonia and told her
to bend over, how
come he didn't tell Otis
to bend over too?"
Men were being
raped, too, but you
never hear a bou t
that-it's what they
cannot cop to.
Now I believe that
just as many men were
raped as women. And
there is nothing else to
do with such behavior
but act it Ollt. Both of
my brothers -and Photo: Chris Buck
they were very oppo-
site-acted this out. One is dead, but he was the scape- neighbor knocked on my door with a copy of the New
goat, the madman -he became schizophrenic and York Time,': "Have you seen the paper-James has been
dysfunctional, but he was very beautiful and very talent- busted!" I said, "What?!" I kneJl' he was a misogynist, but
ed. And the other brother literally went on to make he was the Father's Son who had recreated the pretty
$100,000 a year playing football; I can turn on the TV picture of "the Nuclear Family with the Three Cute
and see him. He was the one who had everything; he Little Kids."
graduated from Stanford with honors, got an engineer- I had heard things but hadn't wanted to hear them.
ing degree and went on to play pro ball, have the "pretty One time the sister-in-law of the brother who died (well,
little wife" and buy into the whole fantasy. He was at a they were never married) said something odd about one
dinner with the Mayor and they were giving him an of James's children taking off all her clothes and acting
award for-you know, being a "good negro" and piling out something bizarre sexually. And I thought, "NO-it
up all these "social achievements" -and the police came can't be happening with Mr Pe/fection!" But then he got
and arrested him for rape! arrested for this rape. He had enough money to buy his
His whole hero image crashed in '87. My next door way out; it involved a white woman. As racist as this
country is, he was able
Photo: Chris Buck
to be acquitted -this
shows the power he
had even as a black
man. He had the best
lawyers, and his stu-
pid wife was there-
she's an ex-beauty
queen, a Vanessa Wil-
liams type. She was
standing by her man
[meek voice]: "I know
my husband didn't do
that," (this is on TV)
"I know that he would
/leI'erdo that. The night
of the alleged ... " -
you know, lying for
him and everything.
But another sister
had told me that on the
night of the offense,

171
James was gone! The wife had told some woman that think it's very interesting-that in terms of his maleness,
she was at home playing out her "enabler" routine, mak- his interest in athletics, his hatred of homosexuals, ha-
ing costumes for her kids for some party and wondering tred of anything weird and his extolling of male myths in
where James was. So he dU) it! I don't know all the general, he wasn't even a fucking "man" by his (}1I'/1 defini-
details of the actual case, but one of my goals is to find tion.
that woman and talk to her. Because nothing but the • AJ: So many exhibitors of male bravado are impo-
truth breaks the cycle; nothing but coming out of denial tent or premature ejaculators ... or else literally do
and copping to "who you are" and "what the fuck did you not get much pleasure from sex- to them, this is an act
do?" breaks the cycle of lying - nothing else. in which they are trying to conquer the thing they fear
... How did you decide to write?
• S: For years, while I was attending various colleges,
1 was constantly bouncing between these two identities:
''I'm a writer!" "No-I'm a dancer!" Butthe writing kept
I feel that my father's getting stronger; this was what I was being asked to do-
death is allowing the male being paid to do. No one was paying me to choreograph
or to dance, yet people wanted to hear the writing. That
part of me to live!
made me take myself more seriously.
I mean - I'd always taken myself seriously in terms of
telling the truth as I saw it, but I also realized that I had a
gift as a performer. And I was astute enough and had
I understand my brother even went to therapy-he enough integrity to know that I didn't want to use that
has that kind of money and mentality - but it was a "put- charisma to mask bad writing. I was able, just with the
himself-back-together" kind of therapy because the team cadence of my voice, to clean up a bad poem, but I
had sold him. It was the trauma of "not being on the realized that I wanted to be able to really write! I didn't
team" and maybe not being a millionaire anymore. So the want to get out there and just "sell it"; it's much more
therapist put him back together so he could rise back to wonderful to get out there and sell work that's good! I
the top: he's risen, he's healed his career, and now all the didn't have a formal education in writing, but I started to
people who were against him are for him and they realize put in the time to try and develop a craft.
that maybe they made a mistake and he could never have • AJ: The academic system perpetuates narrow for-
done that-you know, he did that kind of "fixing," but malistic approa.ches to writing, whereas real creativity
nothing on the order of admitting, "Yes, I did it." involves remaking everytbing, not emulating other peo-
• AJ: In a way he'd already made a bargain with the ple. Society really needs a better language system-
devil: buying into the nuclear family and all the • S: -a JymboLic language. We've tried to make every-
"straight" societal values-to be afootball player?! To thing concrete to the point of our death: "Can you pralle it?"
be that, you have to deny so much of your creativity
and your uniqueness-
• S: He's like my father; part of him is so dead, and
part of him is so vital and alive. What I find with a lot of
I'm not trying to be another
perpetrators like my father is: they have a deep fear of
"'omen, and this manifests itself as a/ear a/death and a/ear
Shakespeare or Henry James~I'm
o.faging-all this is deeply imbedded in our culture. Fear trying to find the blackest,
of the natural process of death and getting old and power bloodiest, female-est form of
dissipating is accompanied by fear of female blood, gore,
expression I can!
and the dankness of earth ...
I feel that the way my father and brothers reacted to
this culture was with an exaltatiol1l of the"super-dick" that
is actually very linpotent. Later in life I found out that
with adult women my father had been impotent most of • AJ: And it's so obvious that the system emphasiz-
his life. I don't know how I was conceived, but I must ing linear scientific thought has not worked.
have been - because I look like him. Also, my mother is • S: They don't want lLJ to understand that they under-
extremely small and passive-very tiny. I remember she stand their system doesn't work! And that their "theo-
looked up at me after we had been separated for many ries" are just that: unproven hypotheses. They have sold
years, and I said, "Gee, I never knew you were so short!" us their theories. Most people never fully realize that
Shocked, she replied, 'Tm not short-you're tall!" Since much of the so-called "reality" that's sold them is based
she was very doll-like and dimill1utive, maybe that had on thoughts that are not even true, yet we can literally be
something to do with my father's attraction to her. Any- locked up in nuthouses for not accepting "reality" as it's
way, I would hear over and over again that he was presented to us. But I don't want their language; r don't
impotent; that he couldn't function with women. So I want their linear male "murder mind." I'm not trying to

172
be another Shakespeare or Henry James - I'm trying to
find the blackest, bloodiest, female-est form of expres-
sion I can! I'm not aiming to be as good as a white man;
I'm aiming to find the Heart of Darkne",', the very thing
they've tried to suppress ... which they claim is ugly
and valueless, then spend half their time imitating and
murdering- I'm trying to find that. That's what I value.
There are things I I/1lldtdo. Jung said something beau-
tiful: that his fate was merely toji"nd his fate and follow it.
I feel this is what astrology does for me; it's not like
everything is clear, but I use the insights from astrology
to try to determine what it is I'm supposed to do.
• AJ: I've studied astrology for 15 years. It's a very
deep and rigorous subject which seems to integrate
hwnans into the fields of experience, and maintain an
elegant empirical system as well.
• S: There's joy in finding your fate and submitting to
it. Besides studying Western astrology, I want to study
Egyptian and Mayan astrology. And fundamentally, it's
all about accepting a force greater than myself-which is
what white male culture has refused to do. They have
said, "We are God; we are over Nature." Not "in conjunc-
tion with," not "at the mercy of" - no, "We are opel' Nature."
There is a part of astrology that says, "God is opel' us, and
ill us," and I love that. That's true power to me. We've Photo: Chris Buck
inherited a lot of ways of thinking which -once we real-
ize the bigger picture -we can discard. We hold on to a
man because we think we'll die without him -like I paying my own way for years, but never totally Letting
thought I would die without my daddy, even though he m}j<lelf take care of my ,1el/ Because I had been taught that
was killing me. But once we let go, a new life appears in Jonuone eLie was going to do that for me. It had never
front of us-this pasture of green grass-and we just occurred to me to do those things for my Jeff, because I
have to go for it! So at the age of forty, that's how I see had never seen my mother do that-she had been taken
myself: as a child running through a field of flowers, care of. She had played out a role as a very passive, weak
being born again! woman ...
Now I feel I'm strong enough to go back to college I feel that my father's death is allowing the male part of
and get a Masters Degree in writing; that I can stand up me to live! My female selfis alive-sometimes I feel it's
to "the father," go through whatever it is that faces me, too alive for this culture - but it hasn't been able to move
and still have my integrity. I want to do the work, the forward in the world the way I've wanted it to, because
discipline - I want to "train" almost like a boxer prepares my male Jelf wasn't there. But now I feel I'm becoming a
for his calling. whole person-not overnight, but... So that's where I
• AJ: Maybe you'll reclaim authority from the white feel myself at, now: that I'm going to take this healing
male power structure as a confirmation of your own deeper, beyond just detailing the victimization and tell-
self-sufficiency - ing the truth about it. I feel I'm moving toward regenera-
• S: Exactly. In other words, the father can't destroy tion ... transformation of this pain into full human
me anymore, because I don't identify with that authority. he-ing. Society cuts off your limbs and leaves you a "hu-
It's interesting: the day my father died (we hadn't had a man torso," but now I feel that" starfish" quality: that you
relationship for 20 years), I started to take control of my can grow new limbs-that's where I'm at now.
life. I began making arrangements to payoff these debts- • AJ: Most people never even get that far; they're
I realized that I was free. totally crippled on all levels -
Most black women grew up in female-dominated fam- • S: Most people live for 50 or 60 years as the living
ilies, but I grew up in a male-dominated household (which dead.
is not the norm). My father controlled the money; he • AJ: Do you define yourself as a lesbian?
controlled the transportation - to this day I feel ashamed • S: I do. I don't run from that; I embrace that defini-
that I don't drive (he took me everywhere). But literally tion of myself-even though I have loved men and may-
the day he died I started looking in the phone book for be will again. I don't define myself as a bisexual or
driving schools; I called this financial planner; I started heterosexual; I'm just a lesbian. There are straight people
to take control of my life. Not that I hadn't been doing who go with gay people every now and then. My sexual-
this before; I had been putting my art out there and ity has never been that rigid or boxed in, but the minute

173
I loved a woman, I knew I didn't want to run from that was defined by the act with not a lot of theory behind it:
fact. And that meant proclaiming I was a lesbian; accept- "This is who I'm fucking. I'm with a man now, so I'm
ing the term "lesbian" and defining it for myself. Just in the 'straight' ... Now I'm fucking Susy, so I'm a lesbian."
same way that I was shocked (after living all my life as a If J wasn't fucking anybody, then I was a nothing-a 110-
black person in the United States) when an African told ,le,mal. It was really hard for me to be in that space,
me I wasn't ('eally "black" -that black Americans were because a part of me knew that what I needed to heal
something else -like hyhri(}d.' myself "vas celibacy. And there was a part of me that
• AJ: "'hat do you mean? craved social acceptance (on some level it must be impor-
• S: This African told me that he was a "real" black tant to me), even though I hate to admit it!
person - "pure" ... and that as far back as time began
his ancestors were black. I know that one of my great-
grandmothers was white and another was Indian -nev-
ertheless, I don't define myself by hi.., definition; the
lightest-skinned black person is "black" to me. The Su-
preme Court proclaimed: If you have 1132 black blood,
We hold on to a man because we
you're black and you have to remain a slave! think we'll die without him-
Now, several women have come up to me and said, "I like I thought I would die
am a 'real' lesbian-I've never had sex with a man; I without my daddy, even though
never will have sex with a man. I live on a commune in
Oregon, and we are working toward the eradication of
he was killing me.
all men-we are going to drown all male babies in wells.
And you -you're just a bisexual"lllt and a whore; you are
not a true lesbian." But I can't let them define lesbianism
for me any more than I can let this African define "black" I think it's very hard to be anything other than what
for me: by lI1y definition I am a "lesbian" in that I have this culture tells you: which is to be passive and to be in a
loved women and will continue to love them sexually, relationship with a man ... or to be in a relationship
politically and spiritually -it's very much a political state- with a woman that recreated hetero,'e,Yua!ity. But to be some
ment for me, it's not the rigid limitations of some kind of type of "free" sexual being-even if it means 110t being
biological choice, like: "I ol1ly sleep with women." sexual-is more than most people can handle. And part
It's not like I ever felt like an imp(Mtu; but I need to of my struggle comes from defYing my father, even though
start defining what I mean when I say I'm a "lesbian." I J didn't have a relationship with him as an adult. Yet
think this will help give other women room, too, like: "If from him I got ideas about male and female sexuality:
this is how Sapphire defines herself as a lesbian, and she that the woman was supposed to he Ihere for the man;
lives as a lesbian, and she takes flak as a lesbian, then there was something wrong with the woman who with-
"lesbianism" is much broader than this other concep- held herself; that she was frigid or sick, and that this was
tion." If I were a heterode,<:llal, J wouldn't define my het- "'rol1.IJ. So when I was being celibate, I had to fight a part
erosexuality that old, narrow way. I requi re a much more of me that still didn't regard myself as a sexual being
open and freer identity, so it's not like walking some de,.erl'il1.CJ of getting what I needed instead of just being
narrow line where ifyou ever deviate (whether it be into there for other people .
celibacy, or a relationship with a man, or whatever) • AJ: Society tells women they're just a part, not
you're no longer a "lesbian." a whole; to be fulfilled they have to be "part of"
• AJ: There's a real empowerment in reclaiming neg- somebody else.
ative terms that society has conferred on oppressed • S: Yes ... For a long time I didn't write about
groups. But it's sad when some lesbians or blacks then sexuality because I was writing so much about abuse.
apply the most rigid definitions and constraints, be- Then I got a call from a woman who said, "Sapphire, I
cause then they become exactly like their oppressors- think I'm going to have a baby; come to my birth." And
particularly in the area of sexuality. Very few people we weren't really that close; she was a closer friend with
in the world are anyone tbing. These are docietal my ex-lover. I remember saying, "Look, I have a tai chi
definitions anyway-in reality we are so much more class this morning, but thanks for inviting me." J was on
ofa mix. my way to the class when something like a bolt of light-
• S: Exactly, and I'll never find al! of who J am if I have ning hit me: "Go to this birth!"
to go by other people's definitions. A big part of dealing So I went. It was at a birthing center, not a home or
with my incest trauma had to do with a long protracted hospital. and I was assigned the job of cooking. The
period of celibacy. And some people actually had the mother had once been at my house when I'd made this
nerve to comment on this - it made them uncomfortable! split pea soup she really liked, so she asked me to make
Because ... they weren't able to "place" me anywhere- some. So everybody's running around while I'm in the
if! wasn't actively involved in a sexual relationship, how kitchen making soup and I hear, "The pains are coming!"
would they define my sexuality? Becaus.e their sexuality Then the midwife calls to me: "Come here and hold her

174
legs!" And I'm right there holding her legs apart where it's been there to kill you. Sometimes, when I would hear
the doctor is supposed to be, watching this baby come this more "limiting" version oflesbianism, I would feel so
out, and of course, it was the most wonderful thing I've killeJ in "~lienee that I would just have to shut the fuck
ever seen. I'm feeling all these emotions and I don't know up ...
what I'm feeling, but all of a sudden I go home and start • AJ: It's so sad when groups of "Outsiders" fight
making split pea soup. Later on that night I sat down at amongst themselves.
my desk and wrote two of the strongest erotic stories I'd • S: There have to be more of us who refuse togive in to
ever written, combining them with a woman's journey rigid definitions. It's interesting: I've worked in the sex
through the South (I've never been through the South) industry and have done a lot of writing about this. When
and Blues music. I would identify myself as a lesbian, this would upset
One story, "Looking for Robert Johnson," featured a people -this was l1otwork lesbians were supposed to do.
woman my age who was doing research on the blues But I found out that the industry was flooded with gay
down South, finding these older black people and drain- women; every other woman I met would turn out to be a
ing the life out of them like researchers do. She meets a lesbian -yet we couldn't talk about it. I went to England
man who has known the famous blues guitarist and starts and my performance piece, "Are You Ready to Rock?"
asking him all these nerdy questions. Suddenly she asks, had a lot to do with that. I would give a reading and
"Were you there when your first child was born?" (In afterwards 1 almost couldn't take it: people would come
other words, she discovers what she really wants to find up to me and confess, "I was a prostitute." "I was a go-go
out about is about life, and that somehow she's missed it girl." And these would be the squarest little English
in the city.) Then the two of them have this affair which things I'd ever seen! It was like this horrible secret-
is very healing for her; they share one night together even more so because they were gay. They had broken
under a full moon and she's convinced she has become the taboo about sleeping with women; they felt they were
pregnant. (At the rime I was thinking, "Am I ever going "whores," too, so this guilt had been pushed deep down,
to have a baby?") Then she goes back home ... and her down and down ...
period starts. In the process of crying about her period
starting, she gets her voice back and begins to Jing. So
this encounter brought her agift.
Further on down the road she meets an older woman
who also knew Robert Johnson, and has a sexual rela- When you take an individual
tionship with her. Then she asks, "Can I stay?" As inti- like Twiggy and hold her up as
mate as she had become with the man, there had been no
question about wanting to stay or be "his woman"; she'd
an ideal, you're holding up
wanted to have this experience and to heal herself, but death. This is not what it u to be
not to bonJ. But she asks the older woman if she can stay, a woman, and to hold that up
and the woman says, "No!" -she has to return to her for people who can never be
work.
I think that witnessing that birth inspired in me an
that is to hold up hate!
eroticism and a power of narrative which was a harbin-
ger of where I could go in my writing. I think when you
pass through these healing experiences, you feel hope-
as opposed to: "You're permanently damaged and you're • AJ: Society controls you through whatever you're
going to remain so forever-" ashamed of-
• AJ: -as if life is static and not in flux. • S: So when we release the shame we discover a new
• S: Exactly. So these two stories I wrote were kind of source of power: "What's wrong with this?"
a way out, affirming that my sexuality is a choice - I can be • AJ: In previous eras, blacks used to be ashamed
with a man or a woman. As in the story, I choJe to be with they were black. Whereas the shame should have been
a woman, because that was where the woman got the directed toward white society's racism-
greatest gifts. When I was dealing with the man, the • S: Exactly; shame involves buying into a value sys-
woman wasn't in the picture. I didn't leave him just to be tem that does not belong to you. For example, that whole
with a woman; lleft him to continue on down the road- dogmatic condemnation of prostitution - I get angry when
you know what I mean? It wasn't a rejection of him for a other women define "prostitution" for me; it's like "black-
woman, it was: whatever it was I got from him, I got it ness" which needs to be defined by black people. 1 was
and then moved on. telling a transsexual: ''I'm not here to define your reality;
• AJ: I think women have to have a very strong you'll have to do that. But until you do it, other people
COlTIITIuruty if our planet's going to survive. And we will do it for you. Edward Albee will be there to write
can't tolerate separatist labels- about it for you if you don't write about it for yourself."
• S: 1 feel that way, and I'm gathering more courage to 1 feel that because there's such a denial of women's
voice that view. Because the other view has been so strong; economic reality, many women think that other women

175
are free not to be prostitutes (or whatever the degrading refuse to forever remain the walking wounded-
economic role in question is). Lesbians also share this • S: Exactly; I refuse to accept that image of myself. 1
kind of snobbery-that's why there's so much denial refuse to see black people as a race of victims anymore; 1
about the sex industry in the lesbian community. Yet refuse to see women - half the world -as victims. We
where do we gel economic autonomy? have been victimized -that's what we have to open up
We have not created an economic base in our commu- and heal from-but I'll be damned if [ admit to being a
nity that provides jobs for women. So to survive, a lot of victim. I'm a ,III/'l'iI'O/: I lived. That was part of what my
lesbians have to leave their lovers, get out and go-go father dying meant for me: I ollilil'ed the motherfucker. I
dance, and come back to be a "butch." This is what you am a survivor. And what I am ultimately about is: to live.
have to do to play out being a "man" with your woman; I'm moving out of death Il'or"!.?li'.
and the denial of that is a way to deny our economic
powerlessness. It's too painful to admit that with all our
"enlightened" attitudes, we're no different-we're sub-
ject to the same pressures as other women: to make money.
All of us can't be construction workers; some women have
This culture wants us obsessed and
to get out there and take sexist jobs. So there's still a lot to
do in terms of just 1lI1peiling "hame and .fJiving it back! addicted-they don't want us joyful
Sometimes in my writing I've felt I was re-I'ICtimi::::in.fJ and happy. What kind of culture if
myself by exposing so much! But I know that I hadn't this-that breeds materialism,
done anything wrong and had nothing to be ashamed of;
misery and depression?
that I ll'aJn't re-victimizing myself-it just /elt like that.
The reality was: I was handing back shame that wasn't
mine.
• AJ: We're trying to heal a wound, but the wound
has to be uncovered and exposed first. Those of us who
had horrible sexual experiences with men in our I think I used to be unhealthily narcissistic - romanti-
youth-why should Ive feel ashamed? They should be cizing death and suicide and mourning. I saw myself as a
ashamed. And this can be extended to all areas where victim; I had my victim fantasies, and of course, some-
society makes us feel shame- times life would fulfill them for me -you know what I
• S: Can you imagine waking up in the morning, look- mean?
ing in the mirror and not likingyour nose? But we accept • AJ: But that's the process: you may find yourself
that it's common to wake up in the morning and hate your there for awhile, but then you move on. Now you're a
nose, your thighs, your this-and-that ... What kind of warnor-
culture is this: where we can't love how we look? • S: That's what I see, too. Part of my process is to go
• AJ: To think that somebody as emaciated as Twig- all the way down and delve into my deepest depths. The
gy could be a physical ideal! other part of my healing involves eventually coming into
• S: That's a worship of death, in a way. When you the light - not just the examination of darkness.
take an individual like Twiggy and hold her up as an This culture wants us obsessed and addicted; they
ideal, you're holding up death and the antithesis of what don't want us joyous and happy. The tarot card of the sun
femaleness is. This is not what it iJ to be a woman, and to with the child naked and joyful-well, I feel I deserve
hold that up for people who can never be that is to hold that, too! Whether I get it at forty, fifty or whatever-l
up hate! deserve that kind of joy. I see animals happy; why the
• AJ: You cannot split the Mind from the Body- fuck can't I be happy? And by happiness T don't mean
• S: -without grave consequences: "We're building "having everything." What kind of culture is this that
our house next to a nuclear power plant. What do you breeds materialism, misery and depression? How come [
mean: there's radiation in the air? What are you talking can't be happy? I think that's part of healing: not just
about? We have a great life. No, we would never move; saying "I survived; I made it," but somewhere finding an
we trust the government's reports entirely. We tra"" our aAa,IY in my heart.
government." Well, you'd have to be totally lI1J/l/1e and • AJ: And communicating that to people is a power:
out of your mother-fuckin' mind to believe that - but taking that personal pain, drawing out the poison and
many people do. putting it into an art that speaks for all of us-and in
• AJ: The entire culture's based on denial: "You can the process, healing yourself. I think the Donna Reed
cut down the rain forests and don't worry about it, types in the nuclear family are certainly not happy-
we'll patch it up later." that's a very difficult act to pull off-
• S: "There is no karma; we can replace the land with • S: I think Donna Reed died of cancer! She was the
asphalt; there's no problem." This is massive denial. Jtou type; I think she smiled every day under chemothera-
• AJ: Basically, all you can do is reclaim your cre- py and denied the pain while she cheerfully fought it.
ativity and put it out to the world, and try to heal. We She went out like a real Donna Reed! •••

176
 Born in 1948, avant-garde novelist Kathy Acker hung out in New York
with the FLUXUS group and underground filmlllakers in the '60s. At
Brandeis University she studied with Herbert Marcuse, following hilll to
UC San Diego. Back in New York she studied with JerOllle Rothenberg and
hung out in the early punk rock scene while writing art criticislll, book
reviews and prose pieces. Her libretto, The Birth ofa Poet, was produced as
an opera at the Brooklyn AcadelllY of Music.
In the past two decades Kathy Acker has written thirteen novels, whose
sexually explicit language, llluitiple personas, plagiarislll and sheer linguistic
inventiveness elllbody a subversive sensibility: The Childlike Life ofthe Black
Tarantula; FlorUJa; I Dreamt I WM a Nymphomaniac Imagining; The Adult Life
of ToulolUe-Lautrec; Hello, I'm Erica Jong; Kathy GOeJ to Haiti; BloOd and Gut.1
in High School; Great Expectatwlld; Don Ouixote; My Death, My Life, by Pier
Paolo PMolini; Empire ofthe Selldele.M; In Memoriam to Ii:Jentity and Hannibal
Lecter, My Father. During lllOSt of the '80s Kathy lived in London and Paris.
Currently she lives in the Bay Area and teaches performance at the San
Francisco Art Institute.

- - - - - - _. .I"""l~r
~

• ANDREA JUNO: How has sexism affected your intuitively "right." But I think the reason was probably
l·C?
llle. my hatred ofgender . .. a hatred of the expectation that I
• KATHY ACKER: All thingJ are Je.-'Cut! Pornography had to become my womb. My hatred of being defined by
is sexist, books are sexist, magazines are sexist. For many the fact that I had a cunt. And as a kid I really resented
historical reasons, there is this fear of sex - in women. It the fact that I couldn't be a pirate! There were these
was a big step when women said, "We'll start making great lesbian or bisexual pirates who would disguise
pornography; we'll take over those areas." It's fantastic themselves as men -like Annie Bonney, whose gender
that women are doing this! And men just can't deal with was only discovered after her death.
it-that's what all this recent censorship is about: the • VALE: How did you actually lose your virginity?
men are freaking out! • KA: I grew up during the days of the Double Stan-
• AJ: In your writing, an inversion of gender some- dard, so you weren't supposed to have sex, but what
times occur where you become the male role. Can you happened was: all the boys we dated (who went to boys'
talk about that? schools) would go to Europe and get seduced by older
• KA: Actually, it's different in different books. In ear- women, then come back and seduce 11<1. I was easily
ly books, the characters (to the extent that they were seduced-it didn't take much! I was 13.
"characters") changed gender a lot: I never got "his" and My parents were so anti-sex that they never gave me
"her" right! And the dumb reason was: I just didn't any sex education - how I avoided getting pregnant I'll
remember, I didn't care, it meant nothing to me. Until I never know. I remember the time this boy and I were
met Sylvere Lotringer [Semwte;,t(e) editor], I didn't un- fucking in a cemetery. I was having my period and he
derstand a lot of the reasons I wrote the way I did. I did thought he had taken away my virginity, so he got all
things without any theory- I did whatever just seemed romantic. I couldn't tell him otherwise, because he was

177
 Pboto: Chris Buck

really into this High Romance of Virginity! But that was illegaL in those days-there was one doctor in Philadel-
my first orgasm-right away I understood: "Wow, this is phia and we all used to chip in whenever somebody
what it's all about! Shit!" needed an abortion. I remember hearing horror stories of
When I started going to college, it was CQol to fuck, illegal abortions: women taping irons to their bodies and
because that was the beginning of the hippie days. So throwing themselves down flights of stairs, and then
then I had no guilt whatsoever- I mean, my girlfriends they'd have the baby in traction! Of course, there were
and I would go out prowLing every night. We'd pass 'em countless coat-hanger stories.
on to each other ("You have him next!"); we had charts • V: Didn't you work in the sex industry?
of the lengths of cocks; we were reaLLy into de;,! One girL • KA: When I was in San Diego I worked as a strip-
Susie Sampson, was the only virgin in our freshman per. There were these 3 clubs in San Diego and you went
class. So we all decided: "Susie, you gotta Jose it!" The around in this pink Cadillac from club to club. They're
guy was picked, they got along okay, and during her first burlesque clubs, you do your act, and you don't have to
time she got gonorrhea! serve drinks or talk to customers. You would dance, get
• AJ: Now AIDS has changed everything. off stage and into the pink Cadillac and be driven to the
• KA: Oh god-my first roommate at college ran an next club; you would go around and around all night. So
orgy in the room. I think her father was a trustee so she you'd spend all your time with the other girls.
got away with it. She covered the whole room with green Those were the days when everyone did drugs; these
carpet and mattresses and it was like orgy-time! I moved women would take anything-the most amazing combi-
out after 3 weeks because I never knew who was going to nations. I wasn't a big druggie, so I was always ending up
be in my bed, and it was hard to study. She had a dog having to work hard at the end of the night, because
named "Magic" who just Loved genitals (both male and someone would be passed out. Anyway, these women
female) -she had trained it with pieces of meat. You'd be would tell great, incredible stories - especially once the
sitting at the dining room table and-all of us had holes drugs got going. So what I did was: I copied them down.
in our blue jeans between our legs so that Magic could go But I didn't want to be like a sociologist, so I would retell
from person to person. I guess those were the good old them in the first person, then put in some of my dreams. I
days . . . had all this text consisting of these great stories plus my
• V: When did the pill come in? dreams-there was a murder story; some things were
• KA: I started taking it in college. Abortions were pretty wild!

178
 • V: Were you ever married? • KA: I think this is a bit how art is created. Julia
• KA: r was married twice. The first time r got married Kristeva has written a book, PowerJ 0( Horror, about this:
because that was the only way r could get money from art doesn't come from a gesture that resembles one man
my parents. But it didn't mean anything; we were hip- going to hit another man; art comes from a gesture of
pies - I was 19 years old. The second time I got married power turned against itself. She calls it "ejection": when
was because I'd lived with this guy for 6 years and you take that emotion and turn it in on itself-which is
thought I was dying. I had this lump in my breast and the what tattooing does, or what women do. And I'd say
doctors said it was cancerous, but it turned out to be just women are almost "natural" artists-we're just trained to
this cyst. do that over and over, so we have an amazing sense of
Actually, getting married fucked up the relationship. beauty. And we decorate ourselves; we constantly walk
It was sick, because before we'd had kind of a good around the world finding patterns of sensuality.
relationship worked out; we'd lived together for six years. Makeup isn't frivolous; it's another form of art. And
We didn't have sex anymore; it was just a family thing, what we've done with our bodies is a form of art through-
we both had our lovers. So I just thought we'd be part- out the ages ... yet it's always been put down. Whatev-
ner,' - besides, our families expected this. But after we er we do-that we learn how to dress well, or decorate
got married. he got jealous of my lover-all that baggage our bodies a certain way, or walk a certain way ... that
came in. So now I think it's a bad idea to get married- we learn how to be elegant and charming and how to
besides, everyone starts treating you like this "couple." please people -all this is ridiculed, yet it's a form of art-
• AJ: When you first started getting tattoos, was a very high art! Again, I think a certain range of femi-
this as an expression of reclainllng the body? nists have been scared by this, so they say, "Oh god-1
• KA: Well, when I first got tattoos I did so because I won't wear makeup." And that's absolutely ridiculous.
just thought they were so beautiful ... Tattooing seemed • AJ: Underlying all that is the denial ofthe boJy, the
to be a real form of art -an ill/1a:::ing form of art, because denial of what women have excelled in. Going back to
it's art that's on your flesh. So you have a certain relation- your tattoos: how do people react to them?
ship to the artist that's very close -it's magical, really.
Some people see me as a bit weird because I have
tattoos and I'm a woman (you know: if a woman has a
tattoo, it's supposed to be a very delicate little one that's
hidden on her breast or somewhere; you're not supposed
My first roommate at college ran
to do these things). I guess I thought, 'Tm old enough - I an orgy in the room. She covered
can start doing what I want. I'm over the age of beauty the whole room with green carpet
anyway, so what the hell!" After the age of 30, you're not and mattresses and it was like orgy-
supposed to be "beautiful" -so then you can start having
jlln!
time! I moved out after 3 weeks
If, every day I thought about all the things I'm not because I never knew who was
"supposed" to do because I'm a woman, and all the ways going to be in my bed, and it was
in which I'm not supposed to be-1 cOlllon'te;\:l.Jt. What hard to study.
I've done is: I've buried all that in my mind. And there's
an amazing strata of anger in me -when it's touched, it
just comes ripping out! So I don't think about tattooing
as a way of asserting control over my own body-al-
though it obviously ii-because I can't touch that anger • KA: Most people tell me they like them. I've never
every day. It's not that I dislike men - I don't at all, but I gotten anything negative from a guy ... only women. I
dislike the fact that because you're a woman, you can't do think it's the women who are more scared, because what
things ... that the word "N O!" is the very first word women have done is to internalize this bad girllgood girl
you learn and it's burnt in your flesh. distinction, and out of fear say. ''I've got to be a good girl;
• AJ: I think most women really have to deal with I'm not going to be a bad girl." So they're the ones who
that bedrock of rage and anger. really get down on the so-called bad girls. I think women
• KA: Well, we were taught to channel anger, rage, are really scared of taking control of themselves, and the
feelings of insecurity - to channel what would-be" nega- men-well, there seems to be some crisis; the men seem
tive" energy I/1{L.lochl~lticaffy. We were taught not to do it to be absolutely j/nunJering about: "Should they be strong?
oirectly-not to go out and hit someone, for example- Should they be weak? How should they act? Maybe it's
but to do it so we'd hurt ollf'Jell'&l. And that's a typical better to hide in a hole." Men don't know what to do at
feminine ploy to deal with power ... in a way it's all-they don't want to appear to be the macho pigs they
because you don't have power, but you're /noking for are. So everybody's walking around in fear these days,
power. because the roles are absolutely not clear anymore.
• AJ: At the same tiIne this gets inverted when you Now in the battered wife relationship, it seems to me
make a beautiful artwork on your skin- that to begin with: something is done to the woman

179
against her will. Usually it's in a situation of dependen- not talking about huge amounts of pain. And I'm just
cy -there's economic dependency, or children - for what- talking about my own experience; I know that many
ever reasons, she feels she can't leave this man who's people have done other stuff-there's a realm of S&M
been beating her. So she take,/ it- she does not leave at relationships that are very dangerous. But I think there's
that point. But this is definitely against her will; she's not a way in which you play with what you most fear in order
a"kill.q to be beaten. And when you're in a relationship (it to learn how to deal with it-that's one thing you do.
doesn't even have to be one in which you're being hit) Another thing is: you're curious about your body-how
where the other person starts doing bad things to you, will your body react to this? And it's not only just pain,
but you're scared to leave the relationship, you can start it's also how you react in terms of being COil troLLed. So you
to think that paill £../ pLea../Ilre. . play with various areas.
Sexuality and play are very elose, and when people
start repressing and denying that play aspect, it's abso-
lutely silly. I used to be terribly scared of cigarettes and
fire, and this German boyfriend said to me, "Look, Kathy,
I dislike the fact that because
I'll show you a game German kids play." And what they
you I re a woman, you can I t d 0 do is, they take lit cigarettes and just toss them back and
things ... that the word "NO!" is forth from hand to hand. And they're doing it so fast that
the very first word you learn. it doesn't burn. But I was frightened out of my mind; it
took ages before I'd trust him enough to play this game
with him. So I think it's all very complicated ...
• AJ: There's a continuum between pain and sexual-
ity. Even "normal" sex includes biting and scratching.
• KA: Well, my body is such that-it's very personal,
We're very adaptable. It's well-known that some of but I have a tremendously overactive elit that can almost
the Jews in Auschwitz adapted to the concentration not bear to be touched - I'd prefer to be touched on
camp, which is probably as hard a form of adaptation as almost allY other part of my body than to have my elit
you can do. Some women who are in a situation which is touched! So the average man who wants to be a non-
terrible for them don't see a way out, so they adapt. And macho pig wants to go down on you, right? But I go,
one way to adapt is: to find pleasurable what is not, "Don't do it; absolutely do Ilot do it! Spank me, do
because you can't live in total pain all the time. Even anything-here's a whip- but do not go Ilear that!" Now
physically, if you undergo a lot of pain, your endorphins that's not like I'm some victim or I'm being submissive;
will switch around and start interpreting it as pleasure. this is my body-I've got a weird body! [laughs] That's
Or you'll just numb out ... what I mean: sex is so unique from person to person. And
Look- I don't know why various people want pain. I from what a lot of my girlfriends tell me, I'd say about
think there's a huge number of reasons. Let's say we 50% of them don't cum from being fucked. No one's ever
divide "sensation" into: pain and pleasure. Everyone gone into this one, like: holl' do you cum? And if we talk
thinks they understand why you would want pleasure, about all the different ways we have to play, what we
but not pain ... but pain can be illteredtillg. First of alL have to do to cum, what really gets us off-all this is
whenyou body-build, in order to really build you have to forbiddell. Yet this is the realm of pleasure!
go through pain -you burn. If you don't burn, you don't • AJ: And there's that continuum between pain and
build. The first time I burned, I wanted to run away, but pleasure-
my trainer said, "No! Just go thrOl~qh the pain." And I • KA: That's what I mean: it jmrtJ me to have my elit
learned how to relax and not fight pain, and I think that's touched. Whereas if I get spanked it doesn't hurt as
not a bad technique to learn. In certain tribes, rites of much, and I'll cum much faster! That's just the way my
passage (when you go from one stage to another) involve body is.
a great deal of pain. That's another kind of pain, and that • AJ: If you let a person spank you, can someone
would be to physically shock you into another level of accuse you of being traditionally submissive?
awareness (I've never done a rite-of-passage, so I don't • KA: No one who knows me calls me submissive; just
know). There's a quote from Nietzsche: "That which people who read my books get on this track: "All the
does not kill you, will only make you grow." women are so submissive." Well-not really! [laughs] A
I don't know how to talk about a utopian world. We typical scenario goes: some guy wants to go down on me,
live in thi.! world and there's a lot of suffering. Ifyou learn and I go, "Don't do it! Don't do it!" And they feel very
how to deal with physical pain, maybe you can deal with hurt, because guys now have this grand thing in their
what's really much greater pain. Now if we're talking mind that if they do this wonderful thing of going down
about an S&M relationship-the ones I know about are on you, you should be eternally grateful, and how can
just play, really, which means if there's some pain it's you deny this to them-it's as ifyou told them they had a
"scratch pain"-little razor blade cuts which every kid small cock or something. I try to suggest, "Why don't you
does, a little play with dangerous weapons-toyJ! We're spank me a little?" and they go [gasp], "I couldn't do

180
something like that!" And I go, "Oh
yes you could!" "Oh no, I can't!"
Here I'd say I'm not being submis-
sive at all! I'm trying to make them
submissive to what I want, and try-
ing to figure out how to connive them
into doing precisely what I want.
They always say the masochist is
in control, and to some extent that
has to be true. Because if the mas-
ochist isn't controlling, then it's rape
or some horror story or it's a crime. I
once asked this German boyfriend,
"Why does a sadist do it? I don't get
it. Why does anyone want to go to
all that trouble? J get off so much
more than you do. You don't get any
pleasure out of this. What do you
get out of this? What do you like?"
And he said, "It's the tension." Yet
the masochist is controlling that ten-
sion-there'd be no tension other-
wIse.
This boyfriend just loves situa-
tions of more and more tension. And
it's not like I'm controlling- he's con-
trolling, really. It just gets into this
incredible amount of tension so you
don't know who:' controlling; you just
keep pushing the situation so you
can get the most tension out of it. It's
like you set up an area of play and
you just see how far you can go.
Then it gets a little addictive so you
have to stop, because it can get a
little dangerous. It's like playing,
"Let's go out into the street and see
if cars will run us over!" It's kids'
games, and I'm just a big kid; I've
Photo, Jill Posener
just never properly grown up. So I
like motorcycles, 1 like kids' games.
1 don't really see this as being su b-
missive at all. If we playa game about being submissive, done everything by the rules and it hadn't done him a
it's just to get the tension going ... to see how far goddam bit of good ... he had nothing to hold on to.
everybody can get pushed. You do that in friendships; Because he didn't have any values-all his values were
you push each other and see how far you can go. the values of society, they weren't his. There was nothing
• AJ: Here one word is covering two very different in him.
situations. I think the other choice is: to find what your value is
• KA: Actually, submissive women freak me out; I like ... to find who you are and where your energy is,
women who know what they're doing ... I guess ev- where your ground is, where your guts are, where your
erybody makes a choice, somewhere down the line: that centers are - however you want to put it. People are
they're going to abide by society's rules and hide in their searching for their centers (be they centers of pleasure,
nice suburban house and do just what they're told and pain, whatever) but really in a way it's a search for "god."
they're not going to step out of line -and maybe, just And in this search -that's when someone starts being
maybe, they'll be "safe." (1 don't know what they'll be interesting, and stops being like jello. There are various
"safe" for, however.) My father made this type of deci- ways of going about this search for "god."
sion; I saw him get a heart attack and suddenly he Those of us who don't want to split the mind and the
realized that he wasn't safe-he was about to die. He had body go through ways that are considered abnormal, and

181
pLay is definitely an area where you can investigate cer- outrageous as you wanna be!
tain things with some realm of safety. Because you've • KA: Well, I'm not much of a moralist that way. I
seen various artists who have died in this attempt-and have a friend who's always getting lipo-something, or
you don't want to die! But it's a dangerous search, obvi- getting her face changed -she does that. But tattooing-
ously, because there aren't many guidelines. I think that's to me, it's a form of art and I'm dealing with a tattooer
what we're really talking about, and I don't want to take who's putting hislher art on my body. Whereas if 1 got
sex away from that. But really, it's all about this Jearch. Ii po-whatever, it would be to conform to an image that's
And we're being denied it by our repressive society. presented in Vogue or Co,lIIwpoLitan. A lot of women my
• AJ: It's about facing death, which your father age are heavily into dieting-to me that's another form of
couldn't do- that lipo-stuff. They're basically anorexic. Whereas 1 eat
• KA: Yeah! We're all going to die; that's the onegiveI1 like a pig, but I body-build -so I don't eat enough. I can't
we've got. We know it, but what we don't know is what stand surgery-it drives me nuts. 1 once had a little cyst
this life is about! in my breast taken out, and I said, "Nel'er a.t!,lli/! Even if I
• AJ: We try to keep the mind/body together and get cysts in my breasts- I don't care!"
not have that repressive split. Because in order to get I saw this film by Jennie Livingston, Paril IJ Burning,
illumination you cannot deny the body. about Puerto-Rican and Black queens who dress up to
• KA: Well, there were ways in which nuns and monks be whoever they want, and they have contests. By my
denied the body in order to get farther. I think there's a standards it was very radical, because they'd want to be
way in which the energy comes up another way, but the richest man in the world, or they'd want to be the
that's very radical ... head of the Pentagon, or they'd want to be a fashion
A gay friend of mine said something interesting model-there was no irony, it was like Postmodernism
to me. I asked her if she differentiated between gay without the irony. They wanted to be just whoever they
and straight women, and she said, "Yes, women who wanted to be without any politics or idea of "Left" or
are gay are really outlaws, because we're totally "Right" or whatever. And they went in and sort of showed
outside the society -aLlI'ayJ. " And I said, "What about off; they did these kind of Vogue-like dances [like Vogue
people like me?" and she said, "Oh, you're just queer." models going down a runway]. It was hot!
Like-we didn't exist?! [laughs] It's as if the gay When interviewed, some of them said, "Listen, we
women position themselves as outside society, but know that in this society a gay black man is a piece of
meanwhile they're looking down on everybody who's shit, and a gay black man isn't anything, so we've done
perverse! Which is very peculiar. this because we know this is how we're going to get what
we want. This way I can be anything and people are
finally going to accept me because I'm going to be fa-
mous!" I mean, they weren't dumb. And if plastic sur-
gery were like that - I can see it. It's the sense of pLay that
In a relationship where the other
I like - I like the art, I like the play, I like the extremity of
person starts doing bad things to it. But just women going around getting their thighs
you, but you're scared to leave the skinny so some guy'll fuck them - ugh!
relationship, you can start to think • AJ: We're talking about two different things. If
you really are obsessive and have this creative idea to
that pain i..1 pletUure . . .
remake your body, then doing it by any m.eaIU (lipo-
suction, facelifts) could be a creative art form. But
most people have actually given up their creativity, so
this kind of remaking of the body is used for societal
• AJ: This happens a lot to .outlawed minOrItIes, control. Sometimes a woman might like her breasts,
who try desperately (in a denial fashion) to gain some but her husband dONn'!, so getting breast surgery is
sort of acceptance. In the tattoo world, there used to not even for herJelj-
be almost this hatred of piercing, because the tattooers • KA: -they're like puppets or zombies. These PR
were trying to make tattooing "respectable." Queens who were doing the Vogueing were definitely
• KA: Everyone makes these arbitrary "definitions" in searching; they weren't puppets ...
order to establish how "straight" they are. • AJ: The key factor is the motivation behind it,
• AJ: It was like: "Tattooing'.! pretty normal ... that searching"':'"
but god forbid you have a pierced nipple!" • KA: The difference between the liposuction/anorex-
• KA: When I used to work as a stripper, all the strip- ic behavior of certain women, and women who get tat-
pers didn't want any whores in the club, right? So these 3 tooed or do every extreme body modification, is: the first
transvestite whores came in one night, and the strippers class of women are just looking to come as close as
were screaming: "Get them out of here; we don't want possible to certain norms that they've internalized.
women like that in here! We're gOOd women!" [laughs] They've taken an image out of a magazine or they've
• AJ: You're still damned-you may as well be as taken a number of images and thought, "This is how I

182
should look; this is how I
should be." Whereas the
second class ofwomen are
actively searching for who
to be, and it has to do with
their own p!efMure, their own
feeling of identity-
they're not obeying-
they're not obeying the
normal society. They're
looking - it's very differ-
ent. And when you look,
you know you're"failing,"
you know you're "inferi-
or." You're inferior be-
cause you're Looking;
there's always something
mi.Ming. And it's intere.Jting
when there's something
missing - it's not interest-
ing when people think
they're "gods" in that very
stupid way. It's interest-
ing when there's suffering
there, and people are full
of feeling, and they're full
of life, and they're con-
stantly making choices.
• AJ: There's some-
thing moving about peo-
ple who are really
searching: who have the
honesty to face up and
admit, "I am inferior."
It's a continuum: facing
inferiority, facing death,
facing who you are ...
• KA: Yeah! All of us
have had these choices. I
mean: you could have
married and had a nice
suburban house and two
dogs and a cat and three
children (or whatever
they have these days). But
Photo, Dona Ann McAdams
you've made the decision
not to do that. to fully heal.
• AJ: Another thing: liposuction and facelifts are • KA: You're really messing your body up, then. I hate
very different from going to a tattoo artist. Getting a pain!
tattoo is a participatory experience. It is not like being • AJ: Okay, if you hate pain, how does getting tat-
anesthetized and flopped on a table like a cadaver who tooed feel to you?
has just given up her body and soul for a period of time • KA: I hate it! It's not a high for me to get tattooed; I
to this medical "institution" -usually a male au.thority just love the tattoos! My idea of a good tattoo is one that
figu.re-and getting plastic padding inserted under- doesn't hurt while it's being done. I'm really not into the
neath your nipple. And liposuction is far more pain- pain of tattooing. It's one thing to control 2 or 3 minutes
ful; for months afterwards you feel "wrecked," you of pain, but after an hour of pure pain I think, "Fuck it!"
can't exercise, and you have to keep your body wrapped A tattoo that takes 20 minutes-that's a kind of high. But
up. Surgery is pretty serious; it takes about 6 months 2 hours - forget it!

183
 It's one thing to play with pain in an S&~\ context have nothing-nothing that gives us any wisdom, that
where: you play with things you don't like because gives us any way of dealing with death, that gives us any
you're scared of them. I really hate pain, so when I play way of going from one stage in life to another, or even
with it I'm just seeing if I can endure it. It's like building telling us what a stage in our life l.." We just grow up and
muscle: you see if you can do another repetition. And I earn money and have babies! And work! A holiday is
really have this thing about: "Go another step! Just go degenerated from what should be ecstasy into sort of
farther! Just go over another hill-there's another hill. CLu6Meo! We don't have any language with which to talk
Just go one little step farther!" I love doing that sort of about these things.
thing. But if something gets boring and it's just about • AJ: That's why we're tripping over words all the
repetitiveness or unpleasantness ... if you're tattooed tirne-
for 2 hours, all it is for me is unpleasant, and I'd rather • KA: Yeah! And then we make up these activities-
not feel it. Because there's no play there, I'm not learn- tattooing and piercing-which is the nearest we get to a
ing anything- rite of passage. I mean, it's our way of doing it-that's
what we're l~oking for.
• AJ: Looking for what?
• KA: Well, we're looking for a society that allows us
thefullnedd of what it l.., to be human, I would think -it's hard
I think you'd agree there are to know because I've never been there! But I read about
various things in us - not all of societies in which ecstasy and joy and certain areas of
which are kind, gentle, and tender. sexuality are venerated (not just in individual situations-
or maybe it can be even individual experiences that go
But you can explore these things
further). And: a whole range offeelings-really, afuLLer
without becoming a mass murderer L~fe! I keep thinking: what we know of as "life" is so thin
... without causing real damage, and juiceless and boring, frankly-we're ground into
without turning to real crime. nothing before we even start out! I mean, take tattooing
(which has been denied us for so long): it's beautifuL the
colors are gorgeous, the images: if you have the tiger on
you, you have the spirit of the tiger in you - that's Jome-
thing: to find out what it is to be an animal! We forget
• AJ: Can you talk more about rites of passage? everything; we forget all of this!
• KA: From what I understand, a rite of passage means • AJ: Really, what we're talking about is: the quest
a real change; you go through intense trauma or intense for creativity, the quest for illumination-
modification. The nearest I experienced to that was when • KA: Well, I think that's what we want! We don't want
I studied with a Korean Zen Master for about ayear and to just work like oog.'-
then did a 3-day session with him. That was probably the • AJ: Or live on the surfaces of life.
strongest experience I've ever had in my life! Basically, • KA: A "normal relationship" is usually a surface thing
we just sat in a room for 3 days; we didn't do anything where you wake up and say to your husband, "Hi, hon-
(although we got up and went to sleep in the evening. I ey!" and have breakfast together and bitch a little and at
don't like to talk about these things too high-falutin' night get into bed and think, "Oh, I gotta fuck again."
because of people's reactions). And at the end I had an • AJ: But there's also a societal control process to
interview with him. It felt like he just put his hand into get rid of creativity in people, because that can be very
my mind-literally! It IVa.! the most incredible experi- dangerous: people exploring creativity, then taking
ence I've ever had; the most radical. Is that a rite of power in the world.
passage? I don't know. I was very high afterwards; I was • KA: I guess there's always this argument about wheth-
walking into cars - nothing happened to me, I was total- er humans are naturally good or naturally have evil or
ly safe, but I wanted to come down, so I called him up very destructive things in them. Obviously we have some
and asked, 'Tm too high - how do I come down?" and he destructive urges in us. The feeling is that humans aren't
said, "You're supposed to enjoy it! Oh-go get drunk!" totally good; they have to be controLLeo or else their violent
So I went and got drunk, and that took care of that ... destructive natures will come out. There are also liber-
We don't have anything in our society that allows us tarians who argue, "Humans are good; it's society which
to do a rite of passage communally; we do everything is repressive."1 think you'd agree there are various things
individually. Our own search is all done individually; in us - not all of which are kind, gentle, and tender-
now and then we might tell each other about it, but we readers of de Sade and Genet would probably agree on
always have the feeling we're being a bit "outside" the this point! But I think you can explore these things
society when we tell each other. I mean, ecstasy - be it without becoming a mass murderer ... without causing
sexual (or some other kind of orgy) should be taking reaL damage, without turning to reaL crime.
place somehow in our "community" -and it's not. Our One way of exploring these things is through art;
dOCiety give.J 1l.J nothing. We have no rites of passage -we there are various ways of doing this. We have to find out

184
how to have a community where the highest priority is to
explore these different paths-to find out what it is to be
human -and yet not wreak total havoc on the society!
How can we have this freedom, so that society's not
repressive, and yet it's not a society of mass murderers!
And I don't think it's worthwhile making the problem too
simple - I think if it were simple, it would have been
solved long ago!
• AJ: In Western society, the body tends to be iden-
tified with women and children and with uncontrolla-
ble forces of "nature" that are dangerous-therefore
they have to be repressed.
• KA: It's like Nietzsche's "Myth of the Eternal Re-
turn": you can view the world without "god" as "demon-
ic" (in which you make the "demons" or the "horrible"
forces of the body). Whereas: if you simply accept the
Eternal Return, then the body becomes the area of joy,
and you value life and you value all the changes and all
tbat is in flux. So, how we can institute a society where
tbat searcb is botb individual and collective at the same
time?
What society has done is: tried to make the search
simply individual; also, label those individuals who are
searching "'itb tbeir bodie., as "weird," "evil," "freaks,"
"queer" -whatever words you want to use. But we could
proclaim, "We're normal!" because we are normal! It's
normal to love your body; it's normal to bape a body; it's
normal to see through the body and feel through the
body. And during ecstasy, the body and the soul are
united. So that's where the discussion about S&M ends Photo: Vale
up, really-
• AJ: -and any discussion about body modification
as well. We don't have a community; there is no com-
munion; we're doing this individually ... and yet self bleed a little is hardly as unhealthy as a man who
there are attempts at making extended families, little beats up his own wife. What so-called "normal" people
communities-among many tattoo people there's cer- do is so disgusting, that-! Someone who deliberately
tainly a bond. puts a few cigarette burns on their body is so much more
• KA: And among certain artists there's a network that's healthy-welL at least they're trying to deal with it-
been going on ... • AJ: The body really is the only thing that you can
• AJ: And this network has to support individuals control, and if you put a mark on your own body, it
in their search for self-knowledge- will heal-at least you own it.
• KA: Of course! You get through trauma by re-living • KA: I used to cut my wrists, and I didn't do it just to
the trauma, be it in fiction or in play. You don't get die. I think (if I can remember the emotions) it was like:
through trauma by burying it and not saying that it hap- "Look, this incident has really hurt you - just look at
pened. Ifyour attitude to "evil" or to something bad that how it's hurt you, and stop it right now!" It was a mo-
happened is to just say, "Oh no, it didn't happen" -to ment of Jelf-co'!frontation; a way of telling myself, "Cut it
shove it away-that just throws away an opportunity to out!" Or else, I'd do this to freak out somebody: "Look
grow. So ifyou want to say, "Women ar~ totally equal to how you're hurting me! Stop it right now!" So this
men; how can you say that women are submissive?" (in probably was not the most direct way of dealing with it,
other words: you can't be a feminist ifyou say women are but . . .
"submissive"), that's just shoveling it underground. Of There's a story about James Chance-he did a gig at a
course women are submissive: they've been traineo to be Mafia club in New York. Afterwards he asked to get paid
submissive-that's the problem! And we get nowhere by and they said, "Fuckyou -we're the Mafia and we're not
not announcing the problem! It's like when black people going to pay you!" So he took out a razor blade, and they
decide to use the word "nigger," it's terrific in a way. We took out their guns ("Is this guy going to go for us?") and
should take the word "submissive" and write it on the he just held it to his wrist and started cutting ... They
sky! were so freaked out that they just threw the money at
A woman who does a cutting on herself and lets her- him and yelled, "Get outta here!" • • •

185
 A Viennese radical performance artist well ahead of her time, Valie
Export was one of the fIrst to use the female body to critique the male gaze.
While working in the same environs as the Viennese Aktionists, she formulated
her own philosophy, expressed as "Feminist Actionism." For the past 30
years Valie Export has produced Body Art, performance actions, photographs,
screenplays, fIlms, installations and important theoretical and historical
writings such as "The Real and Its Double: The Body," and her manifesto,
"Aspects of Feminist Actionism." Currently she divides her time between
Vienna and Milwaukee, where she teaches in the fIlm department at the
University of Wisconsin.

________ I""'l~r
~

• ANDREA JUNO: Where did you grow up? • AJ: Describe what you were doing-
• VALlE EXPORT: I was in an Austrian convent un- • VE: At that time I was experimenting in different
til I was 14. I was quite obsessed with religion and media. For example, 1 poured colored waters and liquids
thought of Jesus as the man I really wanted. I liked into a mirror and projected this onto a screen. creating all
making confessions, even though I had nothing to con- kinds of abstract patterns and moving images in reality,
fess, because this was so exciting. I thought sins were not mediated by celluloid or through the camera-
good-they meant to be againdt something. so I made up • AJ: But what were some of the iiJell<l?
fantasies to confess. • VE: The main point was to question the materials,
After that, I went to an art school. I was married for 2 question the medias, question what could be done in art,
years. had a daughter, then I divorced. I went to Vienna question the society. In other words, question what the
and continued my studies in design school: p'ainting, "aesthetic of art" means. Second, was to integrate how
drawing-this was 1960. At that time Ernst Fuchs and society reacts to these questions. Third. was the political
Hundertwasser [members of the Viennese Fantastic message - art was not done to pLeade society. In those
Realist Group] were really prominent. 1 met a group of days this kind of activity was called Anti-Art, or No-Art.
Viennese poets (the Wiener Dichter Gruppe) and a bit This was not art that bourgeois people could look at and
later met the Viennese Aktionist group and saw their feel satisfied with. Art was a political tool to react against
performances. society. or what we called the "Establishment." The goal
At that time I did drawings and painted a little. I was was to build up an anti-aesthetic of art, an anti-ideologi-
interested in Constructivism but wanted to work in new cal art.
mediums. so I started working in photography and "ex- in my expanded cinema performances I used mostly
panded cinema." With expanded cinema I wanted to the Body, along with media like film, photography, video
liberate celluloid from its constraints - to free celluloid and "reality." For me the Body was the most important
from plots and objects. I wanted to expand the bound- material: it showed my identity or my non-identity. I
aries of the image. so I asked, "Where does the image started asking what identity means: "Where is my bodily
begin? .t:I prLori with the mirror, or on the screen?" What identity? Where is my mental identity?" The body was
was important to me wasn't the materiality of the image, an artistic tool to communicate my feminist points of
but its shifting significance-liquidity in running water,' view: "What does it mean to use the body?" I was con-
its reflection - the light. cerned with the relatedness of: the Object, the Image and

lR6
its Meaning. The body is
a territory for itself, for
society ... for the pri-
vate sphere as well as the
public sphere. It's a terri-
tory where the self-por-
trai t and portraits of
society affect or determine
one another.
In my body perfor-
mances I tried to make my
body "inhabitable" for
me - I wan ted to create or
produce what I would
consider an "inhabitable"
body. I wanted to suspend
the ideological dogma of
the body, and to make
clear the relationship of
inner reference to outer
reference. The resistance
that reality offers to the
ego always reveals the
power of the ego's utopia.
I knew all the paintings
by Surrealist women; my
favorite painter was Dor-
othea Tanning; I also liked Leonora Carrington and Kay on the floor and arranged electrical wires in the shape of
Sage. I knew how they used the female body: to disap- a man in the wax, then I laid naked in the outline. My
pear, to be transparent, or to be "decoded" (they didn't body heat molded the wax around me into my shape. I
use that term then). was naked, yet because of the danger in the situation I
was not "provoking" the men in the audience.
In 1968 I did a performance called the "Touch Cine-
ma" at a street fair. I had strapped on a box enclosing my
naked breasts, with holes that spectators could stick their
I felt it was important politically to
hands through. I said, "This box is the cinema hall. My
use the female body to create art. I body is the screen. But this cinema hall is not for looking,
knew that if I did it naked, I would it is for touching-it is tangible." I went out on the street
really change how the (mostly and announced, "This is the 'Touch Cinema.' The state
doesn't allow pornography, but you can feel free to expe-
male) audience would look at me.
rience the 'Touch Cinema' - but only for 13 seconds. How-
There would be no pornographic or ever, when you do this, you will be seen and watched by
erotic/sexual desire involved---so everyone." So whoever came up and participated was
there would be a contradiction. interacting with the "screen" by touching it.
In Vienna· I had won a prize for my film, Ping Pong,
which countered the idea that you're never "free" when
you're at the cinema-you always have to react how the
director tells you to. If the director wants you to laugh or
My body was the most important tool; I felt it was cry, you have to do it. So my film showed dots appearing
important politically to use the female body to create art. which you played with as in a game of ping pong- it was a
So when I did my performance work. I usually did it game between the director and the participant/consum-
naked. I was concerned with the male gaze: I knew that if er. This was a kind of "theoretical" film; it forced interac-
I did it naked I would really change how the (mostly tion with the screen-you "had" to play with the screen.
male) audience would look at me. There would be no Then I was supposed to show my new film -my "Touch
pornographic or erotic/sexual desire involved - so there Cinema." I went onstage with my "box" and described
would be a contradiction. what my new cinema was: that the audience could partic-
For example, in 1973, I put a large plate of melted wax ipate. I said that this was a feminist film, a "mobile film,"

187
Body and street action performance, "Touch Cinema," Munich, 1968. Photo: Werner Schulz

and that you should come participate, and that you lVtl! be audience shouting, "This isn't cinema -this is nothing!
.Jew when you do that (that was the interesting point: This shouldn't be allowed!" People started to fight, the
that everybody could see you while you touched the lights were turned off, and the whole audience started
chanting, "Export Out! Export Out!"
• AJ: But did people actually touch your breasts?
• VE: Yes, but not very many because then people
I strapped on a box enclosing my started to fight onstage. They hated this contradiction:
that the object of desire is standing in front of them and
naked breasts, with holes that you can have it- but you have to do something for it. You're
spectators could stick their hands not in an intimate sphere now, you're in a public sphere
through. I said, "This box is the and thatJ where you can have it. So 1 offered my body in
cinema hall. My body is the screen. the way 1 wanted to.
• AJ: It's so wonderfully confrontational: for a man
But this cinema hall is not for to have his object of desire so "boxed in" -defusing
looking-it is for touching." any erotic potential-
• VE: The newspaper declared, "We cannot burn witch-
es because it's forbidden now, and we cannot burn cellu-
loid because it doesn't burn well, so we also cannot burn
Valie Export." The next day I repeated the "Touch Cine-
breasts). This actually was a very strong experience be- ma" on the Munich streets and people liked it-they
cause, while participating, everybody stared into my eyes thought it was really great. Fathers with kids did it first,
and 1 stared into theirs-everybody was afraiJ, really, then let the children do it. Mostly men participated, but a
during the encounter. A small riot broke out with the few women did, too. The police were standing there and

188
they just laughed. This was reported in newspapers and
magazines as a joke; it was even incorporated into a
mOYle.
• AJ: This is an amazing experiment-
• VE: Mostly it was against the state notion of sexual-
ity; it was a political action for sure. I used cinematic
terms: "It's a cinema halL and the body is the screen
which you can touch. You will be seen; the gaze will be
on you." And it was a political action to do this on the
streets.
• AJ: How did other performance artists react?
• VE: Most of the men didn't accept it and were against
me-they laughed at me or said, "That's feminist shit,"
or, "There's no need for that." I didn't have support from
men or from women. Other women didn't like me be-
cause what 1 did was too "suspect" for them: to use my
own body, to be naked in front of an audience, and to get
the audience involved in what you're doing. So I had a
lot of enemies - female enemies, too; they really hated me
when I did that.
At the time I was divorced; I was independent, but in
the midst of this group of Viennese artists. I never partic-
ipated in an Aktwnl.Jt performance because they had a
different concept, but perhaps the most important thing
was the feeling that everybody was in revolt against the
status quo. The climate in those days supported every-
body, including me.
I performed and called my performances Media Ak- Valie Export cigarettes
twnl.1m, because I used media - this was the great difference
between me and the Viennese Aktionism. What I did was
"Genital Panik," 1969 a kind of "feminist" Mtwl2lJm, using the body but in a
different way than they did. When 1 worked with the
body, I used it as a code or a sign, in a semantic way-I
never used it in a spiritual way or a biological way.
I was born in 1940, and in the '50s when I was curious
about sex and the body, people would say, "Don't talk
about that! 1 hate that!" This was a post-Nazi Austrian
society, which really hasn't changed much from the way
it was before World War II. I wanted to react against the
rules and the order of society with its notions of how you
"should" be; and against "art." So it was always "against"
or "anti" behavior. But later on I realized that this had
something to do with the rime when I grew up. I used
religious materials occasionally in my work, in protest
against State Authority and Church Authority, and I
discovered how much my identity was involved or in-
vested in this society, and how I have to change. . .
I did one performance which is an example of how
you can really change the male gaze (or cannot; I don't
know!) ... use the naked body as a sign, as a code; put
something in a new context. I put a glass window on the
floor next to some broken glass. 1 rolled my naked body
on the window and the audience was very quiet. Then I
rolled on the broken glass and the audience started yell-
ing at me to Jtop, that they couldn't stand seeing this, that
it must hurt-they hated it! I wasn't bleeding because I
used very small panes of glass; this wasn't masochistic. It
was a "context variation": I was using the same material

189
 that I wanted to live on my own, not in a close relation-
ship. I wanted to make my own decisions and be respon-
sible for myself. Since my divorce I've lived alone; it
doesn't mean I don't have relationships, but r don't want
to ever again have this feeling of dependence.

Maybe this was the goal of human

beings from the very beginning: to
kill themselves. Maybe the whole
nature of the planet is summed up
in the one word: cJuiciiJal.

I did a performance with a dead bird in which I

poured liquid wax over this bird and over my hands. But
in my description and photographs of it I said I had a
/il'in.9 bird. So everybody thought I killed that bird - I
did not; this was trick photography. This was also an
example of the fact that photography can lie; that repre-
sentation can be a fake. And this inspired a huge cam-
paign against me; I was labeled an animal-killer, a witch,
and a feminl.Jt! I lived alone at the time and felt that no
man was behind me to defend me. Some people called up
and said, "We're standing right in front of your door-
we're going to break in and killyou now!" I called a friend
to come over. Then, when I got more threatening phone
calls, he picked up the phone and got a different reaction
entirely -then the callers asked why he was with this terrible
woman. But when I picked it up, they said they wanted to
kill me or "do something" to me-kind of pornographic
threats.
People put signs on my door and I got a lot of letters
with skulls and things like that on them. I had to change
my phone number. But I knew that if I had had a man
behind me, the threats wouldn't have been so terrible-
"having a man around" made a big difference.
• AJ: A woman acting as a free agent is far more
Body Sign Action Tattoo, Photo, Gertraude Wolfschwenger
Frankfurt, 1970
Stills from the film Man e3 Woman e3 Animal, 1973

In different contexts-first I used normal glass, then

broken glass. And I used my body to "research" what the
difference was, for this kind of analysis of the male gaze.
• AJ: But wasn't the audience horrified because of
the iInpIications of the glass cutting a naked woman's
body and producing blood-
• VE: That was the purpose: to change the male gaze.
The man can see you naked ... yet he cannot see you
the way he wantJ to see a naked female body.
• AJ: How have your personal relationships
evolved?
• VE: At that time I lived alone. It was a conscious
decision. I was married for two years and figured out

190
threatening to people.
And ifyou're with a man,
the implication is that
you're some man's prob-
lem; you're not the prob-
lem. The man IS the
intermediary.
• VE: So if you live
alone you can gai n a lot of
power in that men really
are afraid of you.
• AJ: And if you lived
with a man you would
actually be more protect-
ed, but it wouldn't be
your power-the power
would belong to the man.
That's the bargain wom-
en make.
• VE: I had to live
alone, because if I do
something and some man
is behind me, it means I'm
not really doing the real
truth. Ifyou live alone, it's
more courageous. I didn't
live alone just to COI1.JCioll.:l-
Ly be more courageous,
but when I live that way
truth seems stronger to "Erosion," Body-Material-Interaction, Amsterdam, 1970
me-stronger than when
you live in a "family way."
• AJ: For the past 20 years you've lived alone? problem is: how to act and react in society when you
• VE: Yes. Sometimes it's hard, but I think it's more have this gender-crossing. Ifyou're no longer "female" or
honest, more true for me. My art became more congru- "male," should your life be determined by your biological
ent with my life. gender? Whether your relationships are man/man, wom-
• AJ: Don't you think life and sexuality are more an/woman, or heterosexual, there should be a kind of
conservative now then in the "wilder" '60s and '70s? interaction between aLL the genders. So for me this is a
• VE: All around it's much more conservative. Right main point: to have both female and male qualities in
now I'm working on a script involving a transsexual myself. My identity in society should not be determined
gender-crossing. This is very interesting, because then by gender-therefore, society should be changed.
you don't have an identity of only one sex. For me, the • AJ: I'm very enthusiastic about the notion of

191
 lation that's positively
suicidal-
• VE: That's why I
want to work out this gen-
der paradigm toward an
inter-gender model: not to
be determined by this du-
alism, /lot to be determined
by this gender in which I
may have been born bio-
logically, but inJteaJ have
this gender-crossing.
• AJ: How would one
define being female or
male, anyway? Where do
you see our world going?
• VE: If it goes like it's
going, a lot of people will
be killed. This Gulf War
was not a real killing war;
it was a small e:cercwe in
how to do that. If our
planet proceeds, it means
a lot of minorities will be
killed by the majority, be-
cause the majority think
they have the right to do
Body Action, 1973.
that - and they want to do
it. And not only kill by
bombs, but by denying ed-
gender-blurring and subverting traditional gender ucation: not giving people the right education, so they
roles. This is one of the key liberating ideas of our cannot really grow, and have to live in inferiority and
time. For several thousand years we've had a biologi- slums. In Peru there's an epidemic of cholera-it's easier
cal imperative to multiply and fertilize the earth with to let the disease kill them, just as AIDS is killing people
very structured gender identities-men "seeding" and in Africa. A lot of people will be killed in the next decade,
women bearing the children, but now with overpopu- but this doesn't mean that the planet really will survive.
People not only are killing people, but people are also
killing the planet.
Body Action, 1973. We're in a state of permanent war, however you turn
around. The planet has alwaYJ been at war; war has never
stopped. Even ifyou have peace, peace is just part of the
war that never stops.
• AJ: At least war makes it clear what's really going
on, whereas during "peace," death, cruelty and de-
struction are going on everywhere anyway.
• VE: Maybe this was the goal of human beings from
the very beginning: to kill themselves. This is very cyni-
cal, right? Maybe the whole nature of the planet is
summed up in the one word: JuuiJaf. Because the urge
seems too strong now. I don't know how to change this.
• AJ: I think the only way we can change things is to
delve deeply into our most underlying philosophies
and original myths-they're responsible for what's
going on now-
• VE: The planet is dying - the time is over. This could
mean it goes for 200, 300 or even 500 more years, but
maybe not. It's not because of the atomic bomb-that's
not the threat now. It's the "human being" phifoJophy-

192
that's the underlying structure that's making the planet
die. Because this structure has yet to change.
• AJ: But that's where I have a glimmer of hope,
because a handful of people are trying to analyze all
our belief structures, from the bottom on down [laughs]
· .. Even though the planet resembles a train going a
hundred miles an hour with only a couple more feet of
rails left before the cliffl
• VE: Yes, so I don't have so much hope. We don't
exactly know the whole history of this planet, but after a
certain point the human being changed into a suicidal
being whose only goal was to create suicide. That's terri-
ble, but that's the way it seems to be. Maybe an intense
consideration of the problem of cross-gender could help Restricted Code Performance, Photo, M. Schuster
us break up our rigid belief structure. But maybe the Munich, 1979
group of people who want to consider problems like this
is too small. Although-who knows what determination
can accomplish? after 10 or 12 years doing performances I felt I had said it
• AJ: In gender-blurring, certain gays and lesbians all. I had to take the next step, so now I do mostly
really are "pioneerd" oftbe new worf;)- filmmaking: feature-length films and avant-garde short
films on video and celluloid. These days there are a lot of
good films and videos dealing with gender issues or with
"anti" issues~whether it's filmic language or political
issues or a video about AIDS.
• AJ: Can you talk about your tattoo?
An intense consideration of crotftf- • VE: I felt that my body is skin, but it's also a page.
gender could help us break up our And I drew something on my page-my own drawing,
my own sign, my logo, and it stays there forever, and
rigid belief structure. The uphallic when I die it's over. I got it in '71.
society" is dead. • AJ: Your tattoo is shocking because it seems so
contemporary-very few people conceived of an ab-
stract black-and-red design back in '71. Did you say it
was also a garter belt? It looks more like an abstract
representation of one, and that's very pioneering. What
did this garter belt mean to you?
• VE: They give hope for the future. The "phallic" • VE: It's a symbol of the fact that you have these
society is JeaJ. It's still alive, but only because everything stockings and this kind of erotic paraphernalia ... and
hasn't been destroyed yet ... it can only work as long as it's also a symbol of a definition of a woman that's now
there's something left to destroy! obsolete. Because the garter has to do with a kind of
• AJ: And in the United States, schools are clos- stockings which are connected to a certain definition or
ing-that's shocking; it's so barbaric. I think there's an identity; that you belong to a certain "type" of woman.
underlying agenda: to make the U.S. as much of a But now that's over; you have your own identity. So it's
third world country as possible, so life will be like it like carrying around an old historical antique with you -
was in the feudal age where only 10% of the popula- • AJ: But that tattoo marked a changing point for
tion had the money to get educated. you?
• VE: As I said before, their intention is to deny • VE: Exactly, it's like a vestigial tail. I have this tattoo,
education-or give the wrong education. but when I die I won't need it anymore - it's over with.
• AJ: We're exploring the liberation and enlighten- And a vestige refers to something that takes a long period
ment that comes from having the toou of education to of time to change. The guy who tattooed me refused to do
liberate ourselves creatively, because only through cre- the design the way I rea!!y wanted, which was to have a
ation are we truly alive to create new thoughts-and snake wind around my back up my shoulders and onto
they want to stamp that out... Are you connected my cheek; he said, "If I did that, you could never get
with other female performance artists? married !"
• VE: Mostly filmmakers; sometimes also performance • AJ: Some people use tattoos as historical markers,
artists, and more with females than males. But I'm not in to mark time-
a group with anyone. I stopped doing performances be- • VE: So you can look at your body when you're sixty,
cause I thought if I repeateJ something, then it's not really and see all that's gone on in your life. You can remember
"true" anymore. My special theme was feminism, but all these significant events ... It's true . . . • • •

193
 Susie Bright is the best known lesbian sex writer in America. She was
editor of the pioneering feminist erotica magazine, On Our Backcl (whose
editorial policy proclaillls, "Entertainlllent for the Adventurous Lesbian!")
and Herotica: a collection of women;' erotic fiction. Known as the "X-rated
intellectual," she has packed theaters across the country with her workshops,
lectures and lesbian safe sex demonstrations. Some of her articles - delving
into rarely discussed topics such as vaginal fisting - have been published in
her recent best-seller, SlMie Sexpert;' Luhi£Ln Sex World. Besides writing five
books, numerous articles, X-rated fik reviews (for PentbolMe Forum)~ and
appearing in a dozen T\1, fik and video productions, Susie has given some
classic sex-educational presentations-particularly, "How To Read a Dirty
Movie," which was illustrated with sizzling fik clips. Susie Bright lives in
San Francisco with her daughter, Aretha. She can be contacted at 3311
Mission St. #143, San Francisco, CA 94110.

- - - - - - -. .~r;lr 17

My parents lived outside America during the '50s and

Part! then returned. They were very interested in the Civil
Rights movement and the Beatnik movement and the
• ANDREA JUNO: Tell us about your back- Folk Music movement ... all of the qu£.:!tioning of the
ground- U.S. establishment which was taking place in the "all-
• SUSIE BRIGHT: Ifyou knew what it was like to be American way" -my parents were not the most radical
ten years old in 1968 in Los Angeles, I shouldn't have to people on earth. As the "counter-culture" grew, I felt
explain further! My family was influenced by the counter- very affected by it in a revolutionary way, like: Jomething
culture and the politics of the '60s. At the time I was WaJ ~ery wrong here. It's no accident that by the time I got
going to a parochial school, and my parish girl scout to high school and started meeting radicals and under-
troop collapsed because of Beat!enulI2ia-this was when ground newspapers and socialists and Ylppies and acid-
John Lennon was saying the Beat/£.:! were more impor- dropping freaks, it was right up my alley - I had been
tant than Jesus. In meetings, all we wanted to do was waiting to grow up to be part of that group.
play Beatfe./ albums and scream and get sexually excited I wanted to change the world; I wanted to be in a big
until we peed in our pants! circular waterbed with all my friends, sharing the "Bohe-
It was a time when people were dressing up as hippies mian" ideals of sexual freedom and imaginative social
for Halloween. Reagan was the governor of California, welfare.
and I was so vehemently against his administration, his • AJ: Tbere was something in the air then; changing
treatment of student protestors and his attitude toward the world was not disconnected from changing sexual-
the Vietnam War that I did my own neighborhood cam- ity in the world-
paign. I used a crayon that Crayola has now discontin- • SB: If you're raised Catholic, you get a lot of very
ued - "Red Orange" -and made several posters against explicit information about the "Do's and Don'ts" of sexu-
Reagan's election campaign, signing them, "Concerned al morality. And if you're up for questioning any of it,
Citizens of California." I made about 9 signs and couldn't you're going to have a field day! When I started mastur-
spell "Concerned Citizens of California" right, even once! bating I didn't even know the word until years later. I
I stuck them surreptitiously on people's mailboxes. thought the devil had gotten inside of me, but I was

194
 Photo: Jill Posener

somewhat accepting of that-like, there wasn't a whole she was always making fun of the church and its hypocri-
lot I could do about it. One thing I oiJ do was: I stopped sy. She would tell me stories about when she was little
going to confession, because I couldn't imagine talking and you were never supposed to look at your body, and
about this to a priest. The only people in the church I how patent leather shoes would reflect up your dress and
could relate to were nuns who were taking off their reveal something ... and how the nuns put talcum
habits and letting you see their hair for the first time, powder in your bath water so you would not see your
organizing anti-war ma.JJ&J outdoors with painted ban- body as you were bathing. She told me these stories to
ners. show how silly and stupid these ideas were.
At that age, if there was a God, it was Mom -and my However, when it came to talking about sex itself, my
mother was divorced. She would never take communion mother was shy. Once I was listening to the NellJ LoJt City
because she'd been "excommunicated," and she was real- Ramblml sing about when God discovers that Adam and
ly mad about that! Eve have pinned fig leaves over their genitals. I asked,
• AJ: \Vhy-because she had been divorced? "Mom, what does 'pinning leaves' mean?" And she turned
• SB: Yes! Consequently she would go to church with really red and couldn't tell me. The next day she gave me
me, not take communion and make sarcastic remarks a little pink book called A Baby IJ Born. She wanted me to
about the priests the entire time. So I was getting these have a scientific, rational approach to sexuality so I
mixed messages: even though we went every Sunday, wouldn't be scared by it like when she was growing up,

195
 ground can be used to justify a person becoming a devi-
ant. a pervert, or a Bohemian. If r said, "I came from a
white-bread, 2.5 children WASP family," then my rebel-
lion would be a "textbook example." Yet if 1 had "liberal"
or divorced or otherwise unusual parents, that also would
explain why "she became the raving queer she is today"!
• AJ: You can twist anyone's background to support
any theory you want. Like you, I grew up in the '60s
and think something very special happened then that
to some degree I'm lamenting, because the next gener-
ations won't have that feeling that you can change the
worlJ. I think this generation feels so defeated that
they don't realize they have the right to get outraged;
they're just .fLlrviving!
• SB: I know; that feels really sad. It's funny because
those of us who were influenced by the radical politics of
the '60s -we were rejecting everything. We were reject-
ing a two-party system; we were rejecting the nuclear
family; we were rejecting "job security" -all these things
that other people had embraced as part of the future. We
had optimism; an attitude of "Why the fuck !lot?" We felt
we would "Bring the War Home" to this country; that
political issues were meaningful. organizable and that
you could do something about them. In the '70s by the
time I was old enough to participate as an adult, r thought
the movement was over. But compared to what's happen-
ing now. it was thrilJing.
Yet things have come quite a ways since 1 came of age
sexually. The Gay Liberation movement grew, sexual
minorities of all kinds began making their presence known
(both in erotic and political ways). That's very exciting.
Traditional left politics never knew what the hell to say
about sex (except, "If it's under capitalist society, it must
be bad"). Plus, our culture is so easily titillated by sex
that it's hard to get beyond the shock value.
Susie's first performance, Berkeley, 1963
r think people are interested in doing art or political
work on sexual issues-they want to have a sense of
but she couldn't taLIe to me about it-so she gave me a humor and they want to seize the state! They want to
book. turn things upside down, but they refuse that pedantic
My parents gave me the gift of reading. When I was a approach that politics had before. Now they insist on the
kid. the only thing 1 got punished for was reading too necessity for beauty; they want a sense of the surreal;
much - I got my books taken away, because I wouldn't do maybe they want a sense of the spiritual; maybe they
my chores. Reading introduced me to a lot of grown-up want a sense of the visceral. They just want a multi-
ideas at a young age. Also, my mother was (and still is) dimensional approach to social change, and sexuality is
very theatrical and loved to dance and malee-beLielJel so I so complicated that it really spits in the face of people
always had a big bag of clothes, high heels, pearls and who want to dogmatize their political issues.
hats to dress up in. • AJ: How did you start to identify yourself as a
We moved a lot. Not having any continuous real-life lesbian-or do you?
friends, I had a major make-believe world. 1 had my sack • SB: I started identifYing with all kinds of sexual
of clothes and dolls and that was my only consistent fantasies by just reading about sex. I didn't have any
social life: my little world. I would put on these little sexual experience at all- not even a kiss; not even hold-
exhibitions and performances. My mother was my only ing someone's hand. It was just me and my sexual fanta-
dependable audience, and she loved that. Lots of moms sies and my masturbating (although all that was very
want their little girl to learn to dance and sing and make powerful) until I was 16.
music and just be "Little Miss Vivacious" -my personal- My first sexual experience was with a man and a
ity was potentially that, anyway. woman, and in one afternoon I went from no kissing to
I often wonder about the question, "What'syour back- elJerything! I was very pleased with myself, and also felt
ground?" because either a normal or an unusual back- this was an omen that r was bisexual (to me, "bisexual"

196
was more of an anthropological than a political term). I really paused and thought about that; I just loved my
was aroused by both the man and the woman and felt group and was very loyal to them.
comfortable with both. I was so overimpressed by the I'm proud of the fact that I was a member of the
"flrst-timeness" of it all that I really can't say what specif- longest-lasting high school underground newspaper ever
ically stimulated me; I was just excited to be doing some- published in this country: The ReJ TiJe. It fought a very
thing. It all felt like the most natural thing in the world: to important court case: the right of high school students to
kiss her, to kiss him -to be with two people at the same publish anything without prior censorship (just because
time. I had my utopian dream then: I imagined that they're minors), and I was the plaintiff in that case (it
everybody was bisexual ... and that if everyone would wasn't settled until long after I was out of high school).
just get over their "hang-ups," we could all be having We won, although in a practical sense the victory was
such a good time! rather hollow, because ever since I graduated, high school
Then I became introduced to lesbian politics and the students have more and more become prisoners in a little
idea: "Why be with a man when you can be with a cage ...
woman?" And there were all these reasons why. Now I
completely disagree with the notion of having retLJonJ why
anyone goes to bed with anyone else, because myattrac-
tions have led me down so many strange paths with both
I wanted to change the world;
men and women that there are no rational justifications I wanted to be in a big circular
or explanations. This is a perfect example of people waterbed with all my friends,
trying to mix linear-brained politics with sexuality. Even ·
s h anng theliB
o h emlan
. "·d1 eaI s
though it was stimulating to ask: "Why do you feel you
need to be with a woman?" or "Why do you need a man's
of sexual freedom and
approval to be an exciting, successful woman?" Political- imaginative social welfare.
ly, those questions were very arousing, but sexually, they
didn't necessarily ensure gratification.
• AJ: This is a key issue: taking a political stance,
yet not being dogmatic about the varieties of sexuality • AJ: When did you graduate?
which defy facile categorization- • SB: I would have graduated in 76, but I left a year
• SB: I was seduced by the feminist ideal of lesbian- earlier. By that point I had joined a grown-up socialist
ism - it made perfect sense that a woman would know organization which had come out of the "New Left." Our
best how to please and care for another woman. It was plan was to merge the student movement with the work-
appealing because of course I loved women; women are ing class movement ... to organize important unions
fantastic; and anything that promotes women and loving and industries until we could do like the "Wobblies" had
women is where It'.J at! So those ideas were very easy to done, and force a General Strike I
embrace. I enjoyed confronting the way I'd been raised So in the mid-70s I got a solid, first-hand introduction
to be a "wife" or "mother" ... how I had been invested to trade unionism. It was hard to just attend high JchooL
with certain notions of "femininity" that didn't fit me, and when I was on the ground floor of starting a teamster
that I was longing to throw off my shoulders. I was happy rank-and-file group -at five o'clock in the morning I'd
to rebel. At the same time I was having affairs with be leafleting every teamster bar in L.A. county. Then I'd
women that didn't follow any particular lesbian-feminist get a bundle of Reo TideJ and distribute them to other high
prescription, but I wasn't taking myself to task for it: this schools in the district (because we had our own politics:
was Life. I had my political ideas and tried to incorporate "Narcs in the Schools!" or our "Gay Liberation" issue or
them into my personal life, but when they didn't fit I our "Free Palestine!" issue -whatever was going on, we
lacked the insight to understand why; I needed to grow had something to do with it). I'd get to school around 9
up a bit. AM and be e.-r:hawted. The idea that I was just supposed
Sometimes I think, "What else could I do?" - I was to sit there and discuss something like Alvin Toffler's
16. I still don't understand myself, and now I'm 33. Future Shock - I thought, "Are you kidding me?" I had a
Because I was too young and too scared to go to bars (I taste of influencing reaL Life politics; I was writing propa-
didn't know anything about gay bar life or the old gay ganda o;important issues of the day, and didn't feel like
world), the only lesbians I had contact with were women writing term papers on "Caste Systems in India." I was in
who all wore a certain "uniform" and carried a certain set Marxist study groups 3 nights out of every week, and
of politics-and that's what I thought "lesbian" was. I didn't have time to participate in high school buL!.Jhit -so
didn't know any gay men whatsoever. I left.
There was so much excitement uncovering the things I wanted to start ReJ TiJeJ all over the place. Red Tide
we were fighting for, that I didn't stop and think, "Why is was in Los Angeles and we joined forces with this incred-
it that at my underground newspaper every woman in- ible group in the Bay Area called the "Contra Costa
volved in this collective has slept with each other, and Socialist Collective" which was formerly the "Red Polar
none of the men have?" [laughs] For a long time I never Bear Party." It was a group of kids at St Ignacio Valley

197
High School-you never know where some band of Southern California) came to speak, and basically his
radicals is going to emerge - but these kids turned things position was, "Bomb Hanoi!" He and his wife were raving
upside-down there. They did guerrilla actions against lunatics. \Ve were attracting a lot of attention, and Ron
tract homes, they did environmental zap actions before Kovac (the Vietnam vet against the war who wrote Born
Greenpeace was even on the scene- 011 the Fourth 0/ July) and other members of his veterans'

• AJ: These were high Jehool kiiJJ- group showed up. They were right in front in their
• SB: Yes, and a lot of us were living outside our wheelchairs heckling Bob: "Look atme, bud - I served in
parents' homes in communes-high school student flop- this war and J don't agree with you!" And Dornan's wife
houses. I left home when I was 17; I was lucky in that my lost it-she started beating on these guys in wheelchairs
father encouraged me. Some kids ran away and others- with her purse! That kind of stuff I just don't see happen-
well, their families didn't care. We were busy little bees; ing in high schools anymore ...
after joining forces with the Contra Costa group, we We had "Women's Week" which was our alternative to
decided to branch out to the Midwest. Realizing we were the "Girls' Week" that was sponsored by our idiotic girls'
predominantly white, we wanted to have a more multi- dean (who was a dyke, of course). The Red Tide women
racial organization, so a group of us moved to Detroit got together with all the other feminist union women and
and started the first Red Tide to hit the urban Midwest. formed this women's group. We decided we wanted a
That was really incredible: you'd write about every- birth control information seminar, a lesbian panel, self-
thing unfair going on in your high school- from the non- defense classes, a Holly Near concert, a "Women's Histo-
union lettuce in your hamburger to the fact that the ry Day" ... all to counteract the "Powder Puff" football
principal was expelling anyone who wore a hat because cheerleading brigade and the "Mother/Daughter Bake
it meant they were a gang member ... to lies told in Sale." And we did all that!
U.S. History class about black history or Indians ... to This was before I ever thought I would have chil-
criticizing the sexism in the school-you name it. We dren-at that time I didn't think it was "right" to bring
critiqued how some of us were being trained to be jani- children into such a shitty world. I knew people couldn't
tors or to be unemployed, while others were being tracked believe that teena.qerJ could be this politically active and
to go to college. intellectually aware, and have the brains and the know-
how to pull these things off-yet we did. This whole idea
of the empowerment of young people was no small thing to
me; we did it and were very effective, very powerful.
People are interested in doing art From that point on I was very excited: working with
or political work on sexual young people and knowing the potential that's just Jitting
there-they have an enthusiasm that-when you get old-
issues - they want to have a er, you just can't recapture ever again.
sense of humor and they want to So ... four of us white kids from California went to
seize the state! They want to turn Detroit to organize an all- black chapter of the Red Tide in
things upside down, but they the inner city schools-this was in the '70s when Detroit
was the first city hit by the Recession. And we weren't
refuse that pedantic approach doing a "Just Say No" campaign-we danced and fucked
that politics had before. and smoked dope all the time! A couple of us were the
most talkative and best-informed about the "politics" -
the rest were better at making small talk and selling
dope! The combination of the two would bring people
• AJ: It's amazing that high school kids could do around - both the ones who were ideologically attracted,
things like that. I remember when I was in high school and the people who went, "Hey-cool party, check it
we stopped school for a day to have a moratorium out!" But the combination worked. It was a very exciting
against the Vietnam War. I don't think that would group of people in a much more repressive environment
happen nowadays- than Los Angeles.
• SB: We had a high school strike against the war! We I remember when we had a Midwest "teach-in" for
brought Jane Fonda to our high school in '73 when she high school students on apartheid- before that became a
was fresh out of Hanoi, and her talk was so intense that household word. We arranged for some wonderful speak-
after the school bell rang and they yanked her micro- ers from South Africa to show up, and planned all kinds
phone, a whole group of us just walked out of school to a of other events. In order to provide an excuse for kids to
nearby park to continue doing a teach-in against the war. get out of home, we printed these fake forms advertising
And this was when Nixon was in Cambodia. some liberal "YMCA" kind of program, but in reality the
Our high school administration was so angry that kids were coming to our Red Tide anti-apartheid sympo-
they said the only way Jane Fonda could speak was if we sium. At the end of the day everyone was tired out and
had an "opposing view." So Bob ("B-1 Bomber") Dornan came to my house to have spaghetti.
(one of the most successful right wing politicians from Like I said, we were a pretty hard-partying group, but

198
at this point everyone was
so pooped they were just
lying around on sofas
waiting for the spaghetti
to get cooked. All of a sud-
den there was a hideous
pounding at the door-it
was the cOPd!'I was trying
to gather my wits about
me; the police were so an-
gry and violent-it was
obvious that, to them,
something was a really big
deal. I stepped outside the
front door and asked,
"What's going on?" and
they sneered, "None of
your fuckin' business!"
They were swearing at me
and being really abu-
sive - it was one of those
events you need a video
camera for.
I asked, "Why should I
let you in my house with-
out a warrant?" and one
of 'em took my arm amI
twisted it behind my back,
pulled his gun on me and
said, "Open the fuckin'
door!" So I opened the
door, feeling responsible
for everyone sitting inside
(who ranged in age from
13 to 20). And I saw the
fear in the cops' eyes and
realized that they weren't
afraid of me the way I was
Susie (right) just out of high school with best friends Kim Anno (left) and Rebecca Hall at
afraid of them. I was
a Pro-Choice Demonstration in Los Angeles, 1978.
afraid of their guns and of
them assaulting us, but they were afraid because we were disperse. Of course I got in a lot of trouble because it
an interracial group of young people just sitting around wasn't my apartment-it was some older grown-up's,
peacefully-and they couldn't comprehend that. Some- who was not too pleased at the turn of events during our
body had called them because they saw black and white "spaghetti dinner."
teenagers sitting together in a living room-that'.J why • AJ: What happened after the Detroit organizing
they had come. group?
Then they blustered, "We have information that you • SB: Well, our teamster organizing in particular was
are holding a kidnapped police officer inside!" -yeah, successful- so successful that it split apart the group and
right! Luckily, because it was such a totally innocent I was expelled!
situation, I think even they saw that their fears were • AJ: Why?
overblown -there was nothing going on. But it made • SB: It was just hordeJhit. We didn't know what to do
everybody-the whole establishment in Detroit-very with the success we had with the teamsters-we had
upset to see this group of black and white teenagers just created a rank-and-fue group that set into motion the
socializing (and organizing) together. This caused the first national strike in the history of the teamsters, as well
most incredible sexual terror and security panic. And as a union reform group called "Teamsters for a Demo-
this kind of social reaction happened over and over cratic Union." People were arguing about the best way to
again - this raid was just the most vwLent manifestation of approach this. Some felt we should fit in with "main-
it. The police went away after ordering our group to stream" teamsters as much as possible - therefore every-

199
one should sew an American flag on their jacket, get trust. When it ended, a lot of people felt abandoned.
married and listen to Country & Western music and sort Suddenly it was like: "You're on your own now!"
of "put on the dog" to impress these "working-class" • SB: Right. So 1 went to college in Southern Califor-
people. Others felt that tho,li' are not the teamsters who nia and sought refuge in Women's Studies and Theater,
are interested in socialism or revolutionary feminism or and it was very exciting because it turned out I was in
sexual liberation or fighting racism -the kind of people one of the most radical Women's Studies departments in
who support that are young people, part-timers, blacks the country, with rootin' tootin' lesbian feminists. Even
and women. So there was this real "What approach do though my Marxism made me critical of some of their
you take?" quandary. positions, I needed this; I needed a good dose of some-
Success was looming large-in fact, I would say that thing other than what I'd been feeding on.
success was what broke up the group! At the time it was It was exciting to see that commitment and expansion.
over issues that in retrospect seem very petty now. But I This was a time when the Feminist Women's Center was
think the break-up had to do with not knoll'in.q holl' to beginning in Los Angeles, and we were doing the whole
handle ,fUCCeJ,I. Everyone had put this "trust" in one central "Do your own speculum," "Do your own birth con-
body and thought that we all agreed with each other- trol" - "Do your own i'1'erythin.q!"We were exploring "the
but we dit)n't, really, and we didn't know how to cooper- Body"; self-help groups were really popular, and self-
ate and work with our differences. defense classes were really popular. This was right when
Andrea Dworkin's anti-pornography "issue" had started
to become known. But it hadn't completely dominated
the women's movement yet; other things were in the air.
In theater class, the very first collective project we did
was on lesbianism, and I was the only person who actual-
I found out everyhody has some kind
ly had some lesbian experience. That was my first experi-
of gay history -- either gay people ence as "Susie Sexpert" - [ knew something that nobody
in their family, or they've had a else knew; I had handJ-ol/ experience. This show was
homosexual experience. particularly memorable because of the prettiest girl in
the cast-a blonde princess, the only one among us who
had had the perfect romantic sexual awakening with a
man on a sailboat and a sunset. The rest of us had
experienced more squalid initiations -one person had
I had to get out of Detroit because politically it be- been raped, someone else had done it in the dark and
came really ugly-I was part of the "opposition" and I hated it ... but hers sounded "picture-perfect." Yet she
had to leave. So I went to Kentucky where busing had became the biggest dyke in the entire group!
started only the year before, and the sole white people Years later, "Mary" is still the most committed dyke 1
defending the black community were Communists. When know-right up there, a Kinsey "6." Everyone can empa-
I arrived in Louisville I was taken to a house where thize with the excitement of bringing someone "out" for
someone greeted me with, "WelL you're gonna need the first time or being someone's "first." And I was the
thi.J!" and handed me a shotgun. I asked, "Where should first woman she ever kissed! She had the reaction every-
I keep it?" and the reply was, "I'd ,Ileep with it if I were one wants when you kiss someone for the first time: she
you!" Like: WeLcome to Loukfl'iLle! fell back on the sofa, turned bright red and her eyes
When the group broke up, the guy who'd given me his rolled back in her head. She let this incredible sigh come
shotgun was on the other side. When he came over to out and breathed, "I've never felt anything like that be-
take back his gun he was so tense - I know there was this fore." She could barely catch her breath, yet all I did was
tiny part of him that wondered if I was going to blow him kiss her! I felt like Prince Charming waking up Sleeping
away-we'd been fighting so passionately. And when I Beauty; it was a devastating experience.
handed him the shells (which let him know that the gun In Long Beach, which is on the edge of Orange Coun-
was empty) -welL all the blood just drained out of his ty, I was attending a college which was a little hotbed of
face! radicalism. 1 worked as an extra in Hollywood movies,
After that, I talked to my dad and said, "All right, I and also was in an experimental theater group called the
guess I'll go to college." I didn't know what to do; my "Frankenstein Theater," doing "demolition derby" ver-
world had been broken apart. Being in this group had sions of Greek myths. For money we would act out Mark
been so intense, like being part of an ultra-ultra cadre; Twain stories at senior citizen nursing homes and insane
there were some "cultish" aspects to it, where you think asylums. I was "The Jumping Frog of Calaveras Coun-
you could never fuck anyone outside the group, or that ty" at every funny farm in Southern California.
nobody on the "outside" could possibly IlIzder,itand you. This was when the Briggs Initiative in California was
And it was terrible-when the group fractured, a lot of being promoted. Briggs, a conservative Republican, was
people felt very debilitated and depressed. trying to outlaw anybody in the public school system
• AJ: The '60s had that sense of community and who would say a decent word for gay people. His posi-

200
tion was: ifyou were gay, you should be fired; and if you and was thi.! and that and that she loved sex; she felt part
support people who were gay, you should be fired. This of her sexual politics was to embrace "free love"! When I
marked the birth of "Gay Power" as we know it in the read her memoirs I thought, "Nothing has changed - I
state of California, because people started coming out of feel exactly the way this woman does! I am a free love
the closet and demanding that the public know who the enthusiast!" That's what they called it then; that's where
gay community WiLl. For the first time I went from door- I'm at now. She was promoting a very strong, exciting
to-door saying, "Hi, I'm gay. My name's Susie and I want vision of women's sexuality.
to talk to you about this initiative and why you should On the other hand, there were always feminists who
vote against it." in the old days were epitomized by Carrie Nation; she
This was a very powerful experience for me. I had felt that women were moral guardians and that feminini-
hundreds of conversations with different individuals, and ty was a Vice Squad! Sexuality to her was "male"; and
found out that everybody has some kind of gay history- maleness was almost equated to a rapi.Jt mentality. And
either they have gay people in their family, or they've had that idea really appalled me, because it took all the sensi-
a homosexual experience themselves. So this is an issue tivity and diversity and power behind what drives mas-
that anyone can talk about. That was a big change for culinity and femininity and just reduced it to really ugly,
me; in terms of issues gay politics and gay liberation ugly stuff.
provided a much bigger framework than the lesbian-
feminist scene I had been exposed to. And I got intro-
duced to bar life for the first time, and working with gay
men, and all this was much to the better in terms of my
understanding of sexual politics and a sexual liberation
In every culture, whatever is taboo'
philosophy. I began to realize that the sexual liberation gets eroliJ:izeo. In this country, it's
message had something in it that feminist theory didn't black-white relations, incest and
have, just as feminist theory had something that Marxist rape. ~y taboo subject is often a
theory didn't have. So I was piecing sections of theories
/well of sexual dynamite.
together- /
• AJ: What does feminism lack in terms of sexual
liberation?
• SB: Well, feminism is a discussion of gender and
oppression based on the premise that men are "better" • AJ: Well, Andrea Dworkin's conception is similar;
than women. Feminism's position on sexuality is: women when she teamed up with the fundamentalist Chris-
have a right to control their own bodies; women know tians against porno-
what is best for our own bodies; our sexuality is as • SB: If you understand that Andrea Dworkin is the
powerful and lustful as a man's; and our sexual integrity reincarnation of the Marquis de Sade, her whole thing
is right "up there" with a man's. This might be a legiti- makes sense! She's a severely repressed sadist. I just
mate feminist "take" having to do with an idea of equality have to say: read her novel Ice and Fire as a companion
(not sameness, but prerogative, initiative, dominion, pow- piece to Sade's JUJtine, and you'll realize that they are the
er-and control, too)- exact, same story: a woman who tries to be virtuous, who
• AJ: Back then, the Andrea Dworkin-types were tries to do the right thing, and what happens? She gets
very influential in the feminist movement. You were a fucked in the ass in a really mean way, over and over
pioneer in bringing porno and erotic issues out into again. Not in a nice way, but in a mean way! And when I
the open- read in the New York TimeJ that Andrea Dworkin has a
• SB: The Separatist point of view put patriarchy as the special place for dishes that her partner hasn't cleaned
core issue the world revolves around, whereas the "Sex- properly (so he can re-scrub them), I thought, "This is all
ual Liberation" message was about differences based on too clear and too painful! Why isn't everyone noticing
sexuality; the idea of undermining a sexuality based on this?"
procreation and the maintenance of the nuclear family. It Recently I compared myself to Andrea Dworkin, be-
went further, in not just criticizing the fact that stereotyp- cause she's the one other person in America I can count
ical sex roles were restricting, but advocating that sex on to look at any situation and locate the sexual politics. I
roles had erotic possibilities if you .1Ilbverted them! Eroti- really appreciate that about her: the fact she fmds the sex
cism gave a spin to some of feminism's lessons, and that in any issue. She has a radar for the masculine/feminine,
made a lot of sense to me. top/bottom confrontation in life, and you can bet she'll
I knew that from the time of the suffragettes, feminism fmd it. And her research is brilliant. Of course, the two of
had always been split between-well, Emma Goldman's us deviate in terms of what we consider the outcome or
a perfect example when she said, "It's not my revolution conclusion.
if I can't dance to it!" (and here she was clearly talking For example, she wrote an article on Israel for MJ.
about fucking). Now we can read her love letters and magazine. She talked about growing up Jewish; her
learn that she had "G spot" ejaculations and was bisexual early feelings about Zionism; her departure from it; visit-

201
Virgin MQ£bine, a film by Monika Treut.

ing Israel. And then one thing she talked about (that no violent, unequal, and cruel ...
other travel/tourism writer would ever discuss) was: por- One could have these fantasies and perhaps feel inse-
nography in Israel. I was fascinated - I want to know cure about them, like, "Am I a cruel person?" or "Do I
everything about pornography all over the world. She believe in these stereotypes and prejudices? Do I sup-
said, "They don't have porno magazines as such; it's more port these fears that manifest themselves in my fanta-
a part of everyday life. It's in magazines you can pick up sies?" And you may get to a point where you feel quite
anywhere." And she revealed that popular symbols, styles, confident and say, "Well, as a matter of fact I don't." I'm
locations and props recall images of the holocaust, citing sure that for people who find themselves sexually moved
"Trains, showers, long dark tunnels, very skinny women, by some of the awful history of the holocaust-it's quite a
weirdo doctor-nurse garb" -she had this long list of contradiction to deal with; you can't just sit back and
"evidence." Essentially she was describing a Night Porter think, "Why am I, a Jew, turned on by any of this? How
scenario of all these different elements that one might call can I be? Am I self-loathing?" Although -that's one way
holocau.Jt jeti.Jhi.Jm (an eroticization of the holocaust, but to handle it.
not in a blatant way). Then she went on to say how Another way to deal with this is to feel confident
much this ofickened her. I'm sure that what she observed is about what you believe in, your understanding of histo-
quite true, in terms of those images. ry, and your sense of right and wrong, and realize that
Where I go from there is: I see that in every culture, your sexual fantasies are not some kind of McGuffeyJ
whatever is horrifying, whatever is beyond sane social Reader on how to live-they're .lex. And sex takes anxiety
comprehension -all that is considered "taboo" gets eroti- and prohibition and all these things we become numb or
cized. In this country it's black-white relations, incest and rationalist or linear with - sex takes them and just rips
rape -everything that is beyond "typical" understand- them out ofyour dit! It handles that kind of material in a
ing. Any taboo subject is often a well of sexual dynamite. completely non-rational manner. I'm not ofurpri.Jed that
Sexual taboos involve catharsis; they are not about but- holocaust imagery would be the hot porno topic in IsraeL
terflies and daisies and pretty walks along the coast anymore than I'd be surprised that religion and history
(those are all very "nice" and you might have great sex and war in any culture you visit has had a tremendous
involving any of those) but typically our most powerful impact on the sexuality and what is considered"exciting"
fantasies have to do with images that are dominating, and "titillating" in that culture.

202
 • AJ: Didn't you write a column for PentboUJe? photo of me that was taken before I joined the navy.
• SB: For over two years I wrote a column called "The "He said, 'Your mom's been sending me pictures of
Erotic Screen" for PenthoLl.Je Forum. It was a nice oppor- you all these years. I have pictures of you and your
tunity. Penthowe had a "radical" editorial staff at the time siblings.' "Well, the son/reakedj he tore out of the bar and
who loved 011 Our BackJ and decided they wanted to went on a bender for a week because he just couldn't deal
include a video column. They asked me, "Would I take a with it. But at some point he came to and went back to
crack at it?" I was nervous at first, because I didn't know that bar and sure enough, there was his dad ... who
a lot about video, and I was very critical of what I knew asked, "Do you want to go into business with me making
to be out there so far. Not for those typical Oworkin-ite gay porn movies?" The son answered, "Yes," and that
reasons, but for my own. was all she wrote.
I felt most porn videos were mediocre and they conde- I soon discovered that fathers and sons are very im-
scended to the audience; they were supposed to appeal to portant in this business. Family is important, because the
your sense of guilt and your assumption that all such family are the only people who support you and love you
videos are "crap, but I'll get off on it anyway." Most of and know you as human beings instead of as "pornogra-
them were completely oriented to what the male rain- phers" -which is how the media views you. Customers,
coat-wearer is supposed to be preoccupied with. They after all, have no sense of "you." Pornography exists in
were iI1Ju!til1g! such a twilight zone that the only people who see you for
I didn't have a VCR so I had to go to adult theaters who you are, is your family. So there's this embrace of
and watch them, and I made some incredible discoveries. one's children th,at's really powerful.
In these disgusting stinko theaters, every once in a while
on the screen something would happen that would just
make my mouth hang open. Sometimes because it was so
sexy, and sometimes because it was moving or conscious- There i.1 no commercial chiUJ
ness-raising in a way I could never have foreseen. I pornography7 period. That's just
treasured those little moments, and was thrilled to have
the opportunity to write about them.
been the battering ram of the right
I quickly realized that I was not able to give "erection- wing to close down 1) legitimate
ratings" to movies and write in a facile way about what sex education of young people, and
was being ground out of the porno factory that week. It 2) the whole media of eroticism.
was much more interesting to write essays about life and
use pornography to illustrate my point. So if I wanted to
talk about war or guns, I'd talk about pornography where
all the women carried high-powered weapons. Or if I
wanted to talk about prostitution, I'd include some porn When I had my child, Aretha, no one sent more senti-
movies that had that as a theme. If I wanted to talk about mental greetings and bouquets than my friends in the
incest, I'd talk about incest on the screen. porn business. They were the ones who were like the
Sometimes I'd do behind-the-scenes stories, like the Italian grandparents-they just went bananas. They
father-son relationship in the porn industry which I be- would say, "There is nothing more precious than your
lieve is the heaviest family bond in American business! I children." [laughs] And that's part of the reason they get
know stories that would break your heart. My favorite so upset about accusations of child pornography - be-
one is about the young man I met at a porno convention cause they're parel1td. They're very protective of their
who was selling gay tapes; he looked like a young street kids .
hustler himself. I began talking to him and he said, • AJ: Is there child pornography in-
"Yeah, I'm in business with my dad." I said, "No kidding! • SB: There i.J 110 commercial child pornography, period.
How'd that come about?" He said, "Well, I didn't know That's been used as a hideous "pink herring" or some-
my dad growing up; I was raised by my mom and never thing! Every despicable act that humankind has thought
saw him. I got in a lot of trouble; I got into drugs; I joined of is probably on videotape somewhere, now, and it
the Navy but kept fucking up so they kicked me out. doesn't have to involve a child for it to be ugly. Really
"I ended up in Hollywood hustling and doing bullshit sick things have happened and sick people have profited
scams. There was this bar that catered to rich, soft queens and gloated and god-knows-what over them. But these
looking for people such as myself. One night I walked in things that really spark our sense of horror and evil are
and saw this blonde, balding guy at the end of the bar. I 110t really available on the commercial market-you just
went over to talk and he took a special interest in me; he can't walk in and get them anywhere. And that includes
kept delaying me. He didn't go for what I thought he was child pornography-that's not something that has ever
going to go for; he kept wanting to talk, and kept looking been readily available.
at me in this very Jtrange way. He kept drinking and I kept On the other hand, this country is so sex-negative that
drinking and I was getting really bombed when he pulled a book like ShOll' Me was virtually run out of the country.
his wallet out and said, 'You're my son!' and showed a The photos showed little children, young adults and

203
adults in the nude; it showed genitals, bodies and differ- of sex act in the first five minutes? Why do you see the
ences between men and women; what men and women same sex acts in the same positions over and over? Prob-
look like when they make love; what a pregnant woman ably the most famous question is, "Why does the man
looks like, etc. This was a children's book which was always cum on the outside?" What's the point - I believe
produced in Scandinavia- he came!
• AJ: I saw it; it was an incredibly hmnanistic, al- Some of these "rules" are like vestigial remnants from
most New Age presentation- the early days of porn: "they're realLy doing it; this isn't
• SB: Very New Age, yet it was hQunded out of this simulated; see, he's having an orgasm, there's the cum-
country. I know I started having sex when I was a dee, dee, dee ... " All they needed was to throw a wet hanky
teenager; I know that sexual feelings among children and at you! These "rules" for a "successful" porn movie by-
young people are very powerful and vital. and to say that passed certain basics: good acting-who cares? Good
they don't exist is appalling! It's just as appalling as an script-who cares? Women's sexual satisfaction-who
adult exploiting a kid's sexual inexperience and lack of cares? None of this was that important.
power. It's sick to be l£712orant-people get taken advan- Nevertheless, you do have real people having real sex
tage of because they're ignorant. So when people say in these movies. You also have directors who work in this
"child porn" to me, it means nothing but poLiticaL rheto- medium for a lot of different reasons. Some of them want
ric - because in practical terms it simply doesn't exist. very badly just to make movies and are using this genre
An individual's story about someone using or abusing as a way to work. Others are sick of the hypocrisy in
a child -that mean,} something to me. But don't talk to me Hollywood, plus they want to day domething about sex.
about "kiddie porn" because that's just been the battering And thOde kind of directors and actors who were more
ram of the right wing to close down 1) legitimate sex sincere (as to their own sexual energy) I would find
education of young people, and 2) the whole media of fascinating to watch; I'd really look forward to watching
eroticism. When progressive-minded people (erotic art- them and I'd become their fan.
ists, whatever they call themselves) are trying to create I began to develop some ideas: "A lot of feminists want
new words, pictures and ideas and bring diversity, cre- to know: What do women want out of erotica?" And
ativity and quality to this medium, it really hurts us to there is a certain "list" of requirements, such as: we want
have critics and nay-sayers saying, "Well, we don't know to see women cumming. That's so far ahead of everything
if we can buy this; after all, you may be chiLd pornographeNI" else on the list, it's hardly worth it to get into anything
That kind of instant condemnation terminates discus- else. I would rather see women getting turned on and
sion; there's nothing more to say once that label has been cumming and seeing the look on their faces as they come
dropped down from their orgasm - I'd rather see that than almost
any of the other criteria on my list, like: "Nice looking
people," "nice looking location," "inventive dialogue,"
"meaningful plot" -all that I could take a bath on if I
could just really vicariously Live through the woman's
In porno movies, why does the man sexual arousal.
But the question is not just, "What would women like
always cum on the outside? What's to see?" -it's what el1eryone would like to see. I think
the point,.......... I believe he came! there's a gross underutlination of what the male viewer
would be interested in. I mean, after you've seen a few
pussies and a few breasts -after you're over your "nudi-
ty threshold," well, there's more to it than that. At first
you may just be amazed to see the act being done, but
• AJ: So what are some of the discoveries you made? then that gets a little wearying . ..
• SB: I learned that pornography employs a language I remember a group of us gals from On Our BackJ were
of directness that is like four-letter-words: it shows ev- in Times Square for the first time. We'd heard that in
erything without comment. It's like, "Here it is. People New York City it was legal to show men and women
try to color this a certain way, but here it is. Here's a cock having intercourse on stage, and we wondered, "What
and a vagina jumping up and down on each other. This is did that look like? How would they perform?" So we
what sucking looks like. And this is what somebody's big went to one of those huge sleazoid showplaces where
fat butt looks like." It's all rightthere; it doesn't try to make they have hundreds of booths with seemingly all pre-op
it be anything other than what it is. transsexuals behind door number one, and a dyke with a
It's like yelling "Fuck!" in a crowded theater-it's a whistle around her neck supervising the entire floor, and
language everyone knows but no one wants to admit to. a headliner somewhere who's doing a striptease number,
What's hard to understand about porn movies (when and peep show movies, and it's all organized around
you're new to them) is: there's all these mLe.t that you taboos and voyeurism and seeing body parts, and this is
begin to real ize are de rigueur - that on the face of it what the big hit is: taLking dirty. We're having a field day;
doesn't make any Je/ue. Why do they have a certain kind we're the only women in there ...

204
Susie with Christian Mann, one of her mentors in pornography. Photo: Honey Lee CortreU

• AJ: Was the place sort of sticky? whereas everyone else would be so deathly quiet, except
• SB: They have lots of janitors with mops who are for the occasional "heavy breathing thing" - but even
constantly running in and cleaning up. Some guys clean that would be quite subdued.
up after themselves, and some don't, you know ... but So ... the first song came on. I was used to striptease
these mop-up crews keep pretty busy-at least in the being a variety act in that something different happens
better places they do. When I first started going to adult with each song, in terms of how many clothes come off or
theaters I had this/ear oj/LuWJ. But it wasn't as bad as I what the dancer reveals. This sleepy, soft, round, plump
thought. Some places have this unaccountable odor- I black woman came out who reminded me of a koala bear.
don't know what causes it! I thought she might be reaLLy tired-but perhaps that was
Anyway, we finally found the room with the male- her way of being sexy. Slowly she took off her clothes to
female love act. Five of us went in, and there's a small one of those Marvin Gaye "Fuck me, baby" songs-and
circular stage about 6 feet in diameter, with folding chairs that was all right. Considering the setting, it was pretty
that aren't even unfolded leaning against the walls. The sensual.
room is painted black. We got the folding chairs out and Then the guy who had taken our tickets walked on-
sat down. It was cold -no heat in the room. A few other stage, dropped his pants (but left his shirt and Nike
men trickled in. It was dead quiet except for us talking- shoes on), and the woman started sucking him. I realized
that's one of the things I hate about porn theaters: you're that this was partly to show off an oral sex act, but also to
not supposed to Jay anything-even carry on a normal get him hard. The ticket-taker had a nice build, but it was
conversation. rather distracting that he hadn't taken his clothes off for
• AJ: Why not? us, the same way she had. Then, there was this critical
• SB: You're supposed to be inyour own private world. moment when he got it up, and she quickLy scooted into a
The unwritten law is: "Don't let anybody intrude!" and position where he could slide it inside her. There was a
"Don't bring the real world into your private fantasy little bit of pumping and then all of a sudden (it seemed
world ... just let everyone be all by themselves; imag- to happen simultaneously) he pulled out Jojt, and the
ine it all alone, with no laughing, no giggling, and no song (it was a record) went Jcratch! Someone just boom!
gossiping" -and that's just not fun! I was always the lifted the needle up, the lights went on and the show was
person who would be reacting out loud in a porn theater, over! Basically: he lost his erection, they yanked the song

205
off. and the show was over. The harsh fluorescent over- dent directors in mainstream movies who are demanding
head lights came on, so all of us girls got up, the male more. They're the ones that got "NC-17" instituted, and
pulled his pants back on and started being the janitor! who say, ''I'm not going to change my whole script and
cashier again. my whole idea because some Puritan thinks I can't show
We left wondering, "What kind of a love act was that?" this in my movie!" And they're right!
We're lesbians-I'm sorry, we were dissatisfied. So we • AJ: There seem to be different erotic "require-
gave the guy a hard time: "Hey, we wanted more from ments" for men and women. If this cinematic formula
you! You have a nice body but you didn't do anything hadn't worked so well for men, wouldn't they have
with it! You didn't even bother to take your clothes off. changed it?
There was no foreplay, no grace - I mean, all of a sudden • SB: I think men don't speak up and demand what
you lose your hard-on and the show's over?!" And he they want. I think men accept this Faustian bargain: that
was completely mystified by our criticism; he just said, they can have all the sexual entertainment and thrills and
"Well, what can I say? You do 7 shows a day-you're chills they want ... but only if they agree to keep their
just tireJ!" And I'm sure he Wa.J tired. But you can see that mouth shut and accept guilt and shame. There's the
this whole set-up was designed around the idea that underlying guilty thought that: "If they were a better
"Now you're going to Jee it-and it's going to be 'shock- per,lOn, they wouldn't need this. They must be awfully
ing' or 'lurid' or 'gross' or 'outrageous'!" Not: "This is lonely; they must be awfully ugly; they must be awfully
going to be a truly erotic e:r:perience." insecure to have to resort to this terrible vice. "
So it's like being a cripple. The product is designed for
cripples, and the audience is treated in this most patron-
izing way. But I don't buy that; I think, "There are plenty
of men who are looking for something more" - I meet
When I first started going to adult those kind of men all the time. I met them when I worked
theaters I had this fear offluUJ-J. at the "Good Vibrations" store selling vibrators, and I
Some places have this met lots of them when I was writing my porn columns for
unaccountable odor --- I don't know Forum. There are plenty of men who, without shifting
their masculine point of view, will ask for what women
what causes it! are asking for.
I can't tell you how many letters I get from men saying
they want to see women cum in movies-of courJe they
do! If you like it in your life, why wouldn't you want to
see it in a movie? There's nothing as exciting as feeling
• AJ: Do you think it was erotic for the guys sitting that your partner is reJponJing to you. There are lessons to
in the audience? What was their reaction? be learned from gay men's porn, which has been a better-
• SB: Mute. I don't know. The first time I ever saw a made and more sophisticated product overall. Of course,
photo of people having intercourse it stimulated me-it many tapes are total crap, but because gay men place a
was both scary and exciting. But it didn't take long higher (Jteem on porn as both sex and cinema, there have
before photos of body parts in certain positions had very always been more ambitious artists involved in it, and
limiteo arousal potential. I mean they're okay as an open- more respect for what it's all about. Yet those lessons
ing, but I want more. And I get angry that just because have been lost on straight pornography.
something like this has beenforbiJJen to me, it's supposed • AJ: Is there good porno now?
to provide enough excitement for the day?! • SB: The people who are trying to produce more and
I'm much more excited by something that gets me on a give more are so oppressed by the political climate that
wt of different levels. I'm not trying to sound high and they can barely operate. For example, On Our BackJ can't
mighty-I mean, I've used pornography as a vibrator get the minimal distribution that any braided rug manu-
sometimes. There've been times when I go, "Get out the facturer could get for their products. We're denied loans
'All Anal Action' tape and let's watch it!" and just focus from banks because they say the nature of our business is
really hard on certain pictures and get my own fantasy "corrupt." Can you imagine a Sa"ingJ ano Loan telling us
machine going to just supplement all the other atmo- something like that?! You can't get a credit card or fire
spheric elements I might want ... and get off on that. insurance because the nature of your business is "cor-
There's a place for that that's sexually legitimate. It's just rupt"? !
... what's so frustrating about commercial pornogra- • AJ: You've actually been told this?
phy is that it doesn't have a lot of aspirations, it doesn't • SB: Yes - everyone's been told this! Part of the rea-
have a lot of ambition, it accepts the stigma and the son porn became so insular, and certain publishers bought
Twilight Zone that porn is put into. their own printing presses, etc, is because of problems
In some ways I fully expect Hollywood, rather than getting material printed. So I end up back with my
the pornographers, to be the ones that bring explicit Marxist viewpoint: "Freedom of the press belongs to
sexuality back to the cinema, because it's the indepen- those who own one."

206
 So, when you have "institutional" pornographers be- • SB: Debi Sundahl started On Our BaclcJ in 1984, and
ing so conservative and disinterested in innovation I contributed my writing and sold ads for the first issue.
(they've had a formula that has made them a certain The second issue I became the editor.
amount of money and they're not really interested in • AJ: Where did the title On Our Back.i come from?
changing) and then you have the mainstream that dis- • SB: In its classic sense, On Our BaclcJ is sort of the
dains de.T -well, the innovatorJ find themselves in a really perfect expression of how subversive sex is, because
difficult position because they're told that what they're having sex is about the only time you get to be on your
doing is quasi-legaL is socially ostracized, and that in back and calling the shots. Usually when you're on your
just trying to do "normal" business you're going to be cut back somebody's got you at a disadvantage. But sex is so
off at every turn. wonderful: because positions and situations that might
I mean, how many people have asked me, "What's a be unfortunate to be in (outside of a sexual arena) can be
smart, attractive, talented person like yourself doing in very powerful and exciting when they're in a sexual
this business? You'll ruin your life!" And I know what setting. So On Our BaclcJ is kind of a humorous, tongue-
they mean, because to some people being involved in the in-cheek reference to the power of being on your back
sex industry is like pushing heroin (although I think and getting fucked, and how fabulous it can be!
heroin pushers have a better time of it!). I feel sorry for It was also an ironic rebuttal to the feminist slogan,
those of us in the sex business who are trying to do "Off Our Backs!" A feminist news journal called Off Our
something new. Because the public has such an urge to BaclcJ has been around for years; I read every issue and
say No - to be critical and say, "Well, this isn't what I had still have piles of them saved up. Off Our Bac!cJ, unfortu-
in mind!" or "I just don't find anything you do sexy at all!" nately, took a very classic Dworkin-ite anti-porn position
I really could care less what people don't like about a and really ruined their sexual politics as a result of it.
porn movie-do you know how easy it is to turn to any
stranger and say what you don't like in a porn movie or
sex story? It would take quite a bit of vulnerability on
your part to turn to someone and say, "This excited me!" There's nothing written about
Then you would have to reveal something about yourself.
All our lives we've been hearing pejorative opinions on
vaginal fisting-why? People
sex, and no one has even 3 minutes to talk about what have been doing it for years.
they do like about it.
• AJ: Are you working in video now?
• SB: Well, myoid partners in On Our Baclcd, Nan
Kinney and Debi SundahL were interested early on in • AJ: What's your slogan?
creating lesbian-made videos because they didn't exist. • SB: "Entertainment for the adventurous lesbian!"
The two of them are responsible for a small crop of new • AJ: On Our Back.i contains such irreverence and
movies in which the actresses can be identified with humor and fun and pleasure mixed with some very
lesbian culture and authentic lesbian sex. That's really serious deciphering of power inequities ... Do you
thrilling, but these efforts are tiny. More and more books ever get shocked at how this country has devolved since
of women's erotic short fiction are coming out, but that's the '60s-slid backwards in terms of sexual conscious-
just a beginning-there's so much more material. ness? How do you analyze what's going on?
When I edited my essays on lesbian sexuality into a • SB: Earlier we were talking about this nervous break-
book, SWIe Se.1:pertJ wotan Se.-rwor[(), I had to laugh be- down among radicals in the 70s where those of us on the
cause so many of the topics I included are not mentioned inside suddenly felt isolated and alienated from every-
in print anywhere else in the world. I mean: there's thing. All of a sudden we couldn't take "consensus" for
nothing written about vaginal fisting - why? People have granted. As for the ideas we initiated in the '60s and
been doing it for years -why don't they day anything 70s-well, we never did convince the whole country
about it? Why did I fmd myself being the first "lesbian" that we were "right."
mother-to-be talking about sexuality and pregnancy in Those of us who were genuinely interested in "break-
an open and honest way? It blows my mind. I wanted to throughs" have become more and more sophisticated.
read everything under the sun when I was pregnant, and We've brought new people in who didn't have to go
I could not find information about sex and pregnancy through all the prior stages (and in some cases we've lost
except advice like, "Well, ifyou don't feel like having sex, a few). But our evolution has had unanticipated re-
we completely understand" and "After awhile, the mis- sults-I mean, who would have guessed how popular
sionary position will become difficult." Or, "Perhaps you vibrators are today? This doesn't show up on any kind of
might raise the subject of oral sex with your husband, Gallup poll as an index of sexual openness in this coun-
although he will probably throw up when you mention try, but it is!
it!" I mean, this is all so sex-negative-I hate it! So my Meanwhile, people who objected to '60s radicalism
work's cut out for me. and 70s New Age ideas have also become more sophisti-
• AJ: When did you start On Our Back.i? cated. At first they may have just been taken aback and

207
Susie pregnant, with Lulu in back. Photo: Honey Lee Cottrell

thought it was all some sort of horrible generation gap, able in any mom-and-pop video store (although big chains
but both sides have come a ways, and have developed like Blockbuster who only carry "family" videos are kill-
constituency and ideas and analysis and a far-reaching ing these little stores-don't patroni= them!). Those two
social agenda. It used to be, "You young people are realities exist side-by-side. You have tremendous homo-
getting out of hand!" (like, you're questioning things and phobia along with an unprecedented presence of gay
in general just being 'naughty', but when you grow up visibility that is unbelievable. And the more outspoken
you won't feel like this anymore.") But these people grew sexual life is, the more you're going to hear the thunder
up and some of them got even more out there. Then the and the lightning. The "enemy" isn't going to admit, "Oh,
people who were critical had to say, "Well. obviously it's gee, I guess we were wrong!" There is going to be a
not just a matter of being 'naughty'; we have UJeoLogi.cal confrontation.
differenceJI" And this is what I miss about no longer being You have the social phenomenon of something like
in Red TUJe: really intelligent people would sit around and AIDS which creates a context for anal sex to be talked
talk about ideas all night long until we came to some about on the 6 o'clock Evening News, and for people to
incredible (or dismaying) conclusions. I don't have those have to negotiate and speak about sex in a way that isn't
kind of discussions anymore. I miss my Jtudy groupJ- a '50s prom date sensibility. Things are changing in tech-
• AJ: I think we all do! I think that's a widespread nology and medicine, in our lifestyles, in women's inde-
problem now: we all miss the dialogue, the conversa- pendence and enforced economic freedom - now, whether
tion, the getting together in cafes and hacking .Qut you like it or not, you have to support yourself. These
topics 'til dawn over espresso or god knows what, and sexual issues are not going to be suppressed-they're
reaIly having the community to talk things over. just going to get more and more livid and viviJ, I think .
• SB: I don't feel pessimistic in the sense of "We lost!" Today in the paper there was an article about how rap
because we have made gains. On the one hand there's this music is being diluted (its politics, its lyrics), and how
phenomena of pornography being persecuted by the fed- Vanilla lee is a perfect example. They say his lyrics are
eral government to an insane, unbelievable degree ... about women and partying and getting high. But I read
but on the other hand you have sex movies readily avail- some of his campy lyrics about "Check out this girl/I take

208
her home/she shows up in handcuffs and tall leather rnent) also a trap within the gay community?
boots ... " and thought, "There you go - it's that fabu- • SB: .fe", I find that to be true. Declaring that
lous S-M consciousness that's sweeping the nation!" you're gay is very important for a Civil Rights move-
There's not a sitcom or popular song around that doesn't ment, because you have to be able to identify your-
contain some tongue-in-cheek humor about kinky sex! self and announce what freedoms you seek. The
Kinky sex is so popular now ... one stop at Macy's problem is: we want the privileges that heterosexu-
lingerie department tells the whole story! There's a lot of ality bestows-legally and socially, in terms of rec-
playful embracing of sexual hi-jinx ... people aren't ognition and empowerment, plus being able to have
necessarily calling it "S-M" and proclaiming, 'Tm into your family recognized -that's what it's all about.
leather sex!" and joining leather clubs and going the And-to not be discriminated against-just a basic
whole political nine yards, but there is this openness anti-bigotry, pro-fairness message. So in that Civil
about sexual subjects that we've never had before-at Rights sense, calling oneself "gay" is very impor-
the same time they're being condemned. tant.
Something like the MeeJe COmml.lJIOn Report is the per- But when it comes to describing who you are, what your
fect example: I masturbated to that report until I just erotic identity is, who arouses you, what your sexual life
about passed out - it's the filthiest thing around! And has been all about-then saying you're "gay" becomes
they know it! They made bondage a household word; more and more meaningless as every minute passes. The
everybody knows what bondage is now because of the more people who come out of the closet, the more mean-
Meese commission -you read all about it in the papers. ingless it becomes. We can't just say, "Oh, we're all
The right wing's tactic is to titillate -show you the thing together here on a yellow submarine." That's like me
they want you to get mad about-thus triggering your being in my little socialist group and thinking that we all
shame and guilt feelings but discouraging deeper, con- felt exactly the same way about everything. How stupid!
textual analysis. Well. that works with some people, but Yet that's a common sentiment in small gay communities:
for other people it's like, "Hey, check it outf" They're a really intimate -incredibly intimate - feeling. Usually
amused, intrigued -whatever, with the result that it then people never feel that way except when an earthquake
becomes an open subject instead of a closed one. While comes -then suddenly everyone identifies with each oth-
on the one hand we're having attempts at censorship that er-but oppressed minorities feel like that al! the time.
are ugly and hard to believe, at the same time the list of And that feeling gets shattered when your group gets too
topics that one cannot discuss seems to be getting smaller. big, and the differences become better-known.
Certainly sexuality has become a wide-open issue to be In some ways I've come full-circle from my early idea
talked about. And it's no longer just doctors or professors that everyone was bisexual. Now I don't believe every-
pontificating - the hottest new "product" is amateur home one is "an equal mixture of this and that" -an equal
porn videos. mixture of masculinity and femininity. I think sex has a
• AJ: But is just talking about sex equal to sexual spectrum like the color spectrum, and that it isn't as
liberation? important to say "I'm red" or "I'm yellow" or ''I'm green"
• SB: When topics like safe sex and sexual risk are on or ''I'm purple" as it is to shatter stereotypes and mislead-
everyone's mind before they hop into bed with some- ing information.
body, that's a sign of the times that shows sexual fear-
but it also shows that these are topics everybody feels
free to bring up. The fact that anyone can rent a porn
video and take it home without guilt implies a democratic
notion that el'eryone can talk about/express opinions about I've come full circle from my
sex, not just academics or authorities... early idea that everyone was
The right wing mind-set thinks: if you put a certain bisexual. Now I think sexuality
image or thought out, everyone's going to take it one way;
has a rfpectrum . ..
that somehow everyone's going to have a single, identical
reaction. And that accusation gets put to "pornogra-
phers" all the time. If you show a picture of two people
fucking-then ohmigod, the whole social fabric's going to
unravel, and people are going to do hideous things to When it comes to sex, people telling me what they
each other!" I really hate that kind of belittling of basic "are" means less than nothing-they might as well say
intelligence. So talking about any taboo topic, especially they're a Communist or a feminist as to tell me that
on a popular culture level, must have Jomething to do with they're gay- I have no idea what that means anymore. It
liberation, because the more diverse points of view and was supposed to mean something Je,l:uaL at one point; it
contexts and interpretations that get expressed, the more was supposed to mean somethingpoLiticaL at another point.
the idea of authority in any area oflife gets shattered ... If you're a woman and you tell me you have a powerful
• AJ: Are strict definitional labels of gays and lesbi- attraction to another woman, and describe what you did
ans (as important as they are for a political rnove- in bed with her, and how that felt to you that night-well,

209
 idea that you can expect a
certain kind of "sexual
life" from someone be-
cause of what they call
themselves in front of the
"establishment." Like,
'Tm in Queer Nation!"

OTJC ER
Well-Jo what? Politically
that means a lot to me,
but sexually it's mislead-
ing-I'm not sure what
you mean by that. Does it
mean you're uninhibit-
ed?-if so, I suppose
that's pretty good! But I
honestly don't know what
it means. And it's very dif-
ficult to talk about what's
at the core of our sexual
identities. Because there's
Photo: Jill Posener probably not a group or
movement around that to-
on a kind of "Be Here, Be ow" basis I can understand tally speaks for you-that you can wholeheartedly join
or empathize with that experience. without reservations, and create a political platform. Sex-
I can also see what the gay community as an oppreJJeJ uality's still quite personal.
community has created, because every oppressed com- I remember an old study group in which we had this
munity always has the best culture going on -the best long Lenin lesson on "bending the stick" ... how you
music, the best clothes, the best parties! To overcompen- have to take a certain position to an extreme for awhile,
sate for the fact that we are denied more boring parts of not because it's the "true" position, but because it has to
legitimate life, we prosper in the illegitimate and the be done in order to end up in a "middle" or "correct"
imaginative parts of life -and that's exciting! I like that position. It's very important to put forth a "community"
heritage - it's very powerful. And lots of so-called straight idea of being gay- I've contributed to that; I've worn the
people are just dying to be part of that aesthetic, that "Dyke" button to make that point. And now I find myself
sense of humor, that gay "thing" that is just so irresistible bending the stick in the opposite direction and saying,
and attractive. Instead of being "possessive" about it and "Labels are misleading; they encourage false assump-
saying, "No, you can't come in; you have to be gay, and tions, and are not a very sensitive or accurate way of
gay means A, Band C," I think we should display more talking about sexuality. Don't try and pin me down. I
ulI:geJJe:This is ours; we created it; it's very powerful; it's have lesbian sex, but to call me a 'lesbian' doesn't mean a
very attractive; and people who understand the point of whole lot anymore."
view or the aesthetic or the 'Bohemian' qualities of it Of course, no one wants to be called "straight" be-
should be embraced. And whatever their sexual life is cause that just sounds like the squarest thing on earth-
will hopefully add to it all. no matter how fiercely you may be attracted to the
So ... these kind of discussions are one thing, and opposite sex! Since I'm single, people always ask me,
talking about a woman's right to control her body in "What do you think your next partner will be: a man or a
countries where women are considered entirely and com- woman?" And I'm always hoping that my friends will ask
pletely second-class, is quite another. me some really brilliant question that'll help me in my
• AJ: You have to reclaim what society's taken from quest to find love and romance. But that question is so
you, and that means reclaiming the labels used against disappointing-because I've never fallen in love with
you, from "bitch" to "slut" to "dyke" to- anybody just because they were a man or a woman!
• SB: Sure-that political power of language is very That's never been up there with what got under my skin. I
important. But let's change the context for a minute. If suppose people are trying to help me "narrow it down,"
I'm looking for a sexual partner and someone tells me so they know where to put my "personals" ad or which
she's a political lesbian, this is absolutely meaningless to club to send me to-like some sort of efficient match-
me in terms of whether I'm going to have a good time making device. But that depresses me. I feel most at
with her, or find intimacy with her. I mean -we might be home with people sexually who enjoy the distinction of
able to have an interesting poLiticaL discussion, but that's masculinity and femininity; who don't want to merge it
not necessarily going to translate into an erotic infatua- or blend it all into some kind of bland soup. If there's any
tion. And this in itself has become a political issue: the sexual politics that I identifY with in my cunt right now,

210
it's genJerfuck - that probably appeals to me the most. bad and should be disowned; people who had leather sex
I'm always threatening to get out of the LeJDian maga- were equally disreputable. It was OK to be gay-as long
zine business and into the Dutch-femme magazine busi- as you were sexually bland. and as unprepossessing as
ness-there really should be a magazine for people who possible.
are attracted to butches, and another for people who are
attracted to femmes. Sometimes this just seems like the
classic way the cake is cut: instead of having to endure all
these letters from people saying, "Oh, everybody inyour I masturbated to that MeeeJe
magazine's too hard and cold and masculine for me," and CommueJwn Report until I just
other people saying, "Ifyou show one more woman with about passed out-it's the filthiest
lipstick, I am going to throw your magazine into the
trash." Let's just make it reallY<limpLe for the whole world,
thing around! And they know it!
and say, "You want to look at this kind of person-here
you go. You want to look at their opposite, here you go."
For me, sexual tension means masculine and feminine
confrontation and confusion-that's what's exciting. For • AJ: That's just transferring conservative, status
other people "top" and "bottom" scenarios are the most quo values to-
important kindling-what starts the fire. And others will • SB: Yeah! The idea was to convince straight people
insist that "warm, sunny days on the beach" are the that we eat just like you do; we comb our hair; we go to
kindling for their sexual desire-but I don't believe it! the dentist; we do all these things just like ordinary
Because I like making love on the beach more than people-to try and make us seem less like monsters. But
anyone - I like ali those "vanilla" activities a lot, but gay will always mean de;\": to the public, and for gays to not
that's not where my sexual taboos are at. That's too nice! acknowledge this sexual perspective seemed crazy to me.
Some people wish that nice things were what pulled I was very interested in us not dividing ourselves between
all of our sexual triggers (and some nice things do-I who were the "good" gays and who were the "perverts."
mean tenJerneJJ is an aphrodisiac to me), but you wouldn't At first this was more from a political position, but as
feel all the soft and tender things if you didn't have time went on I realized that I was more of a pervert than
something else to compare them to. They wouldn't have I was some sort of Middle-American "gay mainstream-
the cachet and the charged meaning they have if you er."
didn't compare them to their opposite. So I started meeting other people in the Gay History
Project here - all sorts of artists and activists who were
interested in sexual liberation. Sal7wu, the lesbian SM
group was just starting, and absolutely every lesbian
who was at all interested in sex was joining up. However,
• AJ: Can you talk about Good Vibrations? interest in SM was almost secondary to just plain being
• SB: I was working at Good Vibrations, the feminist interested in Je:-c and wanting to be in a pro-sexual envi-
sex shop in San Francisco, after I left college in '81. In ronment - because the lesbian social milieu had for so
college I'd been very fortunate in that I'd gotten in on the long been unsexual. Discussion of fantasies and erotica
last "experimental" year of a university (DC Santa Cruz) had been pushed under the bed way too long. And Sam-
that was reorganizing itself back to "the three R's." But ou was this huge breakout-an e:dreme breakout-and it
previously it had offered a wide latitude of studies for polarized the community very quickly.
student investigation, and i'd told them, "Look, my ma- You also had people talking about "butch" and
jor is Sexual Politics." 1 had spent my last two years of "femme," which meant that talking about masculinity
school mostly living in San Francisco working in differ- and femininity was rearing its little head (instead of
ent political groups, and the focus of these groups was everyone being in this androgynous mudpile). Suddenly
more and more on the politics of sexual liberation inside people were talking about "differences" and "opposites
the gay community. How did we talk among ourselves attracting," and the excitement and importance of having
about sex? What did we present to the straight world a sexual or erotic identity-we all didn't want to just look
about sex? and act like Mister Potatohead in bed.
There were a lot of battles between people who felt All this was going on when I left college. Like every-
that gay civil rights would be ruined if we put our sexual body I knew in San Francisco, I didn't have a job and
liberation message out there (we'd ruin our chances for was having a hard time finding work. One of my idols,
acceptance from the mainstream) ... and other people Amber Hollibaugh, broke up with her girlfriend who
who said, "If we don't bring out Sexual Liberation now, was another idol of mine, Honey Lee Cottrell. Honey
we're going to be cornered later on." And sure enough- Lee worked one day a week at Good Vibrations. And she
this was already happening: different aspects of the gay was so unhappy about her break-up with Amber that she
community were being labeled as "bad" and other as- left California, and I got her job working one day a week.
pects as "good." People who had sex in the park were Honey Lee had sold me a vibrator at Good Vibrations

211
a couple of years back and it had changed my sex life couple of old books by Anais Nin like Little Birds and
forever - I was very pleased to be working there. The Delta 0/ Vellll<l - and that was it. There was no modern
owner, Joani Blank, had started the store as a way for women's erotica; the only thing that was contemporary
women to be able to buy things like vibrators that would and by women was SamOlJ' book, Coming to POlller; which
help a woman reach orgasm, without having to go to a was about a specialized topic. Women were really upset
sleazy adult shop. You could be in a women:, environ- to come in and not find any women's erotica- because
ment. there WaJ no women's erotica. At this time the store was
The shop was very tiny and nobody knew about it. If I only selling vibrators, a few other sex toys, and a handful
had a couple of customers come in all day, I felt very of books.
lucky. But what was great about it was: people would • AJ: I went there in '79 and was so impressed that I
come in and talk at length about their sex lives with me, wanted to make a film documenting it. But then I left
perceiving me to be an expert-even when I was very school. It had a little museum of antique vibrators-
new on the job. And I just ate it up! I read every book in • SB: People would always look at the museum first if
the place, and I would talk and talk with people - I was they were really nervous, because anything from the paJt
so grateful they would be candid enough to describe doesn't seem as threatening as something that's happen-
their sexuality to me. And I could see that I had a talent ing right now ... that you might actually ll<le inyour sex
for communicating about sex, that I was at ease discuss- life. But I tried out some of those museum relics in the
ing anything. I wasn't judgmental- I mean, the last thing try-out room and some of them worked splendidly.
a sex educator does, is say, "You WHAT?!" When some- • AJ: That's right; there was a "try-out" room, too!
body describes their fantasies you listen - that's one of • SB: That's probably the mark of a successful sales
the best things you do: you li.Jten and you accept that how clerk at Good Vibrations: being able to convince some-
people feel and fantasize is "natural." The whole idea of one that they can go use the try-out room and nothing
"perversion" really doesn't fit into my point of view. terrible's going to happen -I'm not going to peek through
There are people who don't have compassion or empathy the keyhole, and they'll be able to walk out and not have
for how others feel, and who tread on other people- everyone burst into laughter or ,Itare at them. It's hard to
that's what the issue of COIL.lellt is all about. But there's tell someone what a vibrator feels like if they've never felt
nothing that anyone would think of erotically that would it; it's like asking, "What does milk taste like?" You have
shock me, or that I would think is harmful. to try it. And in fact, the sensation is so strong you can
• AJ: To even have a concept of "perversion" is to feel it through your clothes. Only once in six years of
subscribe to the Christian belief that the body is evil. working there did I ever see someone just come into the
Christianity defines "perversion" as any sex that isn't store, disappear into the try-out room, and come out 20
for procreation. Anyone with any liberation - gay, les- minutes later. ThatflooreJme! This woman just "dropped
bian, feminist-has to re-evaluate ue.Jire in the body. in" to have an orgasm-then left.
And it becomes no longer a question of what's "per- My mouth was open, because usually people say,
verted" or what's not. "Okay, all right, I'll try." And they run into the try-out
room and all they're doing is touching it to their pants for
two seconds and going, "Oh, that kind of feels nice," and
then they run back out. But to have someone actually
lu:wriLzte and moan behind the door-that was unbeliev-
Joani always thought the able!
vibrator addiction paranoia • AJ: Was she moaning?
went straight back to the fear • SB: Yes.
that hair would grow on your • AJ: By the way, did you make a sale?
• SB: Oh no! She was a total weI'. She just came in,
palms if you masturbate too used my try-out room, and !eft. But this fits people's
much. Thered a tremendOlLJ fantasy of what it's like to work at Good Vibrations. One
fear of liking .lex too flUUh. time I had some underground comix folks including the
late Dori Seda come in-she was this wild girl who
looked exactly like Olive Oyl out of the Popeye cartoon.
She said, "I want to do a shoot here-will you close the
store? It's gonna be this scenario where this girl comes in
• SB: Well, when I started working at Good Vibra- to try out the vibrators, and the vibrator clerk ties her up,
tions there was very little for women to read ... about and then there's a whole bondage scene, and ... " She was
the sexual feelings we have. There were a couple of so goofY, I really wanted to do it! And sure enough,
books by Nancy Friday about women's fantasies, and I Robert Crumb and his assistant and the girl models came
read them and realized, "My god, I do fantasize; it's just in and we did a "photo funny." I got to do the vibrator
that these things are so naughty and taboo I didn't even bondage since no one else really knew what they were
admit to myself that I thought these things." There were a doing, and I said, "This is what people think goes on here

212
every day of the week" -and of course it doesn't; it's • SB: Well, orgasm is the Number One thing for wom-
much more serious. en. One of the most intense cases for feminism is: not
Actually, people often come in really concerned: some- being able to orgasm is not a man's complaint. (I have
thing is not right with them, and they feel very secretive yet to meet a man who couldn't achieve orgasm.) And to
and isolated about what worries them -when in fact think that so many women can't ... and to think about
everyone has about the same five concerns! With wom- what that means - to have never experienced a sexual
en, the top question is: "Why is it so difficult for me to climax in your life?! To me that's worse than getting 59
orgasm?" Either they never have, or they can only have cents to the dollar; it just shows how women are divorced
it under certain circumstance, like, "I could only do it from their sexual capacity, and how passive our lives are
with Harry," or, "I could only do it with my shower supposed to be. On any given day in Good Vibrations-
massage," or, "I could only do it with thi.J, that and the that could make me cry.
other thing." And this means that people are afraid to try
something new, are afraid that it won't work, or are
afraid that the vibrator wiLl work and then they won't be
able to have an orgasm any other way.
I wanted to tell why vibrators
But there is something really wonderful about or-
gasm, which is: the more you have it and the more were the best thing that had
different ways you have it, the more versatile you be- happened since sliced bread!
come! And it's hard to change; you really do cling to one
particular pattern that will give you pleasure. But to find
another way by which you can achieve that same satis-
faction or even greater satisfaction - this only opens your Men are concerned about being able to get an erection
body up to break the habit again and again. People who when they want ... and being able to cum when they
change their eating habits notice this too: at first it's so want. I would describe it that way rather than use words
hard not to eat the same things, but once they start like impotence or premature ejaculation, because those
experimenting, then they want to try more and more! are terms that have just been used to deva.Jtate men - they
• AJ: We have such a paucity in our language about don't describe what's really going on. I visited the Kinsey
how to discuss the body and orgasm. There is that Institute recently and one of the librarians pointed out
myth about the vibrator: that you'll just get addicted that in Victorian England, the onLy reason a woman could
to it- divorce her husband was if he were impotent. So if a
• SB: Well, Joani always told me that she thought the woman actually brought a case to court, she would have
vibrator addiction paranoia went straight back to the to bring charges that he could not perform. And this is one
fear that hair would grow on your palms if you mastur- of the oldest, most profound insults in this Puritanical
bate too much. Thered a tremendou.J fear of Liking oJe.-r: too culture that anyone can think of: that's it-he cannot
much. When we make love, as much as everyone wants to perform.
cum and see stars and feel the world turn, we reoJi.Jt I started On Our BackoJ with Debi Sundahl and Morgan
intense sexual experience more than we embrace it. And Gwenwald because there was nothing for lesbians ...
it's very difficult for us to Let go. The idea of "letting go" because lesbians are so invisible. But truthfully speak-
makes people think they're just going to Lode it-they ing, there's nothing for anybody. There's very little sexual-
won't get up and go to work the next day. I think that ly meaningful literature for men or women, gay or
sexual repression really is key to the work ethic: the idea straight-for any sexual persuasion. There's only a few
that ifyou pleased your body, you wouldn't be compelled precious things - most of which have been censored or
to bring home the bacon, or wax the floor anymore-all forbidden at one time or another. There's only one book
those things that you make yourself do because you have for men, Male Se.-r:uaLity, by Bernie Zilbergeld -one book,
to. And I think that in a romantic love culture, we some- and he did this in the 70s-about the demands this
times have brushes with that, because often people will culture puts on men for work and sex, and why this
have a romantic experience where the rest of the world screws men's sex lives up. I would think there would be a
blacks out and you can't concentrate on anything else- miLlion books on this subject-and there's one.
you're in such a state of euphoria. With masturbation • AJ: What about The Juy ofSex?
you don't have that "romantic" part, but you certainly do • SB: That was horrible! I can hardly believe that was
have a euphoria and a satisfaction and a fack of inhibition such a popular book. You can open up any random page,
that is incredible. read one of the questions, and want to bury your head in
• AJ: Well, if people really were loving or revering shame. The author, Alex Comfort, is the guy who said
their bodies, and really enjoying themselves with or that lesbians don't fuck, they don't do penetration -it's
without a partner-this would probably change the essentially the same as that book in the '60s, Everything
world. People would think twice about going to a job YOu Ever Wanted To Know About Se.-r: But Were AfraLJ to Adk. I
they're totally alienated from ... You were saying remember being in grade school and hearing about that
there were about 5 things women want- one . . . somebody had tried to steal one from their

213
 Photo: Mariette Pathy-A1len
Susie with Honey Lee Cottrell

parents' bed-table. That turned out to be fIlled with sizes; it's a potential space, and it's closed all the time. Its
inaccurate information ~same thing with The Joy of Se.:'C. vaginal walls are muscles, and when something enters it,
It was a great marketing ploy-to promote something to it opens to receive JiMt that much and then closes again.
mainstream American couples answering questions about People act like it's a pinball machine that you throw
your sex life, and it certainly promoted the idea that sex something in and see how long it takes to come out. And
was a wonderful thing to have-but it was fIlled with you can have strong muscle tone or weak muscle tone.
inaccurate and prejudiced information. During childbirth you use incredible muscles to push
• AJ: What about Dr Ruth? that baby out ~ I mean, that's quite a feat. Childbirth is
• SB: She's contemporary, and also she doesn't pub- the biggest sex act of all- having just had a child, I can
lish books. She's a celebrity. She's another subject. talk about this. And afterwards, you might want to do
This is another subject, but women would come in to these exercises called KegelJ, which somebody originally
Good Vibrations and say, "My husband doesn't want to thought of as a remedy for urinary incontinence - for
have sex with me anymore, and I think it's because my women who were having a hard time controlling their
vagina's too big." This is another complaint that would bladder. But they also strengthen your vaginal muscles
send me into a total rage. Everyone, including women, ... and this is the same muscle that squeezes when you
knows much more about male genital anatomy than they have an orgasm. So actually, having lots of orgasms will
do about female genital anatomy-in fact when I give also improve your muscle tone! When you squeeze off
talks to groups of lesbians, fIrst I show them a picture of your pee when you're going to the bathroom, that's a
a penis just to orient everyone, because everyone knows Kegel. You can do them all the time and they will improve
what a penis looks like, but people don't really know your muscle tone and they will make you more orgasmic.
what their clitoris or vagina or clitoral structure looks In fact if you do 20 in a row, you'll realize that you've
like-that's why when something comes along like the made yourself wet, and that you feel slightly aroused - it
"G Spot," everyone thinks it's some kind of joke-be- automatically does that.
cause they don't know what women's sexual organs look But the idea that you should do these exercises be-
like. If we knew, we wouldn't be so ignorant and say so cause your pussy isn't tight enough is crazy. Most of the
many bigoted, stupid things. guys who bring that up - if the truth be known, that's not
First of all, a vagina is not a hole that comes in various what their problem is in terms of getting turned on or

214
getting off- but it's an effective way to stop arguing just because we've accepted this dishonesty that there's
about having sex. In other words, maybe he wants to get nothing physically pleasurable about fucking -and there
his cock sucked. Maybe he wants to get fucked in the ass, is! It's very stimulating; people aren't just doing it be-
or maybe he wants to fuck his wife in the ass. Maybe he cause they've been "brainwashed by the patriarchy" -it
has homosexual fantasies. Maybe he feels weird about feels good! And some people have these gender-bending
her body in general since she had a child. Maybe some- fantasies -who knows what everyone's reasons are, but
thing about seeing her as a mother has changed his they want them." Joani and I would laugh a lot about the
fantasies about her-who knows? fact that f (supposedly the radical lesbian) was taking the
• AJ: These attacks are usually about a man's lack of pro-dildo position, and"he (the suburban straight house-
honesty regarding what he truly desires. Usually this wife-she's not really, but she likes to pretend) was tak-
is a whittling-down attack to make the woman feel ing the reverse. But eventually that gave way ...
bad-it's about control. A real common event would be: the lesbian couple
• SB: It's a very effective way to ruin your sex life! that would come in the store and start circling closer and
And it's the same thing if a woman tells a man, "You can't closer to the cupboard displaying the dildoes and the
satisfY me because your penis is too small." That's like harnesses. And it was usually up to me to "break the ice"
saying, "You can't satisfY me because you have red hair," and start talking about them in a very normal way, be-
or " ... because you're only five-foot five." If the "rea- cause a lot of people are there buying something like that
son" has something to do with your body, there's not a for the first time. Also, if you buy a harness, it's obv1ous
whole lot you can do about it. you're going to experience this malce-beliel'e of having a
• AJ: It's basically dishonesty about the fact that cock-and usually when you first put one on, you burst
you have problems in the relationship with that per- out laughing! Or you cover your hands and you blush-
son, and can't directly communicate. you feel so silly. Nevertheless, just to have something
• SB: So it's this dead end maneuver ... Also, women dangling from you in that part ofyour body is an extraor-
would come in and ask, "I heard that using ben lI'a balls dinary experience.
will help strengthen my vaginal muscles." Well, ben lI'a And then to begin using it with your lover -at first it's
balls are the pet rock of sex toys -they don't do anythin.q! awkward, because you don't have any sensation in the
If you put them inside you, you'll forget they're there- plastic, so it helps to be really familiar with your hands to
again, because the vagina's a potential space. It either begin with. Accept that the first time it's new, it's embar-
hugs them or it doesn't hug them; they either sit there rassing-mostly because of your own inhibitions. Once
and you forget they're there, or they fall out and -! your inhibitions are down and you're not either hav1ng
Whatever they do, they give you no sexual pleasure. performance anxiety (that you're not going to do it
So I say to women, "Ifyou want to practice exercising "right"), or feeling, "What kind of a woman am 1-
and have some fun at the same time, use a v1brator and strapping on this enormous lavender cock?" Once that's
make sure you're having an orgasm at least five times a done away with, you could start having a really good
day!" or, "Get this dildo; you might enjoy using it, and time!
practice hugging and squeezing the dildo as you're play-
ing with your clit (or whatever you do to get of£)." And
when I start talking to them in terms of, "If you really
want to do something about this, you're going to have to
start cllming more often," this just blows out their whole I feel sorry for any man who has
"My boyfriend doesn't want me anymore!" preoccupa- never been penetrated . . . . . . again, it's
tion because I'm talking to them about their sexual plea- that fear ofintelUity.
sure. And initially they didn't come in because they wanted
to have orgasms - they came in because they felt bad that
their lover had rejected them-
• AJ: They felt self-denigration instead of righteous
indignation over the fact that tbey're not being satis- • AJ: In your lecture, "How to Read a Dirty Mov-
fied- ie," you showed a film clip of two women with a dildo
• SB: Some of the questions that would walk into the that was very hot-
store wouldn't even be said out loud; they'd be kind of • SB: Sexcapade.J) with this older woman producer and
JiLent questions. We had a big controversy with the own- this younger woman actress on the casting couch.
er, Joani, who didn't want to have dildoes in the store • AJ: There's something very liberatory about the
because she was so exasperated with everyone adoring blurring of (and playing with) gender identities. You
"the phallus" -she just wanted to get the phallus out of have these two feminine women going in and out of
her store entirely! And I had to say to her, "Look, I've got "male" roles; the older woman's saying, "You bitch,
lesbians banging down the door for dildoes! I know you bitch, fuck me!" and the younger woman with the
that's not supposed to be what lesbians want, but that's dildo strapped on is playing the "male" role. Some-

215
thing in us is released (in the sense of a desire system) easy and fast and don't have any morals and anybody can
that is challenging to our fixed notions- do anything they want to you -you're trash. You would let
• SB: Lee Carroll is dirty-talking Sharon Kay through somebody touch you in such an unladylike way -ladies
her first dildo experience. And the way she instructs aren't supposed to be interested in that kind of thing."
Sharon to use the cock-stroke it, fuck her, tease her So, that about covers the top ten concerns at Good
with it (all these things that she wants) -in a sense she Vibrations .
could well be instructing a man to do the same thing. Not • AJ: How did you Jtart On Our Backs?
all men are that sexy with their cocks - in fact, I think • SB: As 1 was saying, all the staff at Good Vibrations
too many of them take their sexual identity and their were painfully aware of the lack of contemporary erotica
masculinity for granted. Of course, when women start for women, and the lack of any literature for lesbians-
playing with masculine sexual energy, well- first of all literature which emphasizes sexual identity. Lesbianism
it's taboo. But once you start playing with it, it had better had become a political stand, not a sexual preference,
be erotic -it's not part of our "natural" body, so the only and it was time to bend the stick the other way.
reason to use it is to turn yourself on ... learn some- First we had Samol.J who put out their book, Coming to
thing about yourself you didn't know before ... put Power-political essays and erotica, including the first
yourself in a different sexual position than you would lesbian story I ever got off on reading: "Girl Gang Bang."
ordinarily be in. That story did.Jo much for me - I was beginning to think I
would never be able to find a "home" in a lesbian erotic
scenario, but thanks to that story I did! Now previously,
when 1 lived in Los Angeles I had been doing theater,
My first attempts at 8M were more and all my friends would be trying to win an audition for
a Burger-King commercial-that's what theater was about
like a Laurel e3 Hardy film than
in L.A. But when 1 came to San Francisco, 1 discovered
either evil or liberation! that you could have the most obscure poetry reading in
the world and people would come to it! You could do
performance art and total strangers would come see you
and appreciate your work. So I was in heaven. I put on
this show called "Girls Gone Bad" which was very con-
The same thing (regarding dildoes and harnesses) troversial at the time. 1 think about what we did -we
would also happen with a lot of men-and-women couples talked about Catholic school, we read from pulp novels,
that would come in. This is what I call one of the biggest we wore lingerie and tore it off- now all of that would be
secrets of the last two decades: the popularity of anal sex just so much Madonna-videos-under-the-bridge, but at
has become outrageOlbJ. And this despite AIDS which has the time it was really exciting!
really dampened a lot of anal sex interest in the gay What this show was really about was a contemporary
community, but among men and women it's incredibly take on the "damned if you do, damned if you don't"
popular-particularly with men who want their female rivalry between madonnas and whores, and what hap-
lover to fuck them in the ass. And they're always very pens when women speak frankly about sex and defY the
shy when they come in, too, and need extra-special atten- prejudices and the sexual script expectations. I loved
tion, because ... of course for a man to say he likes anal doing that show. (This is embarrassing to admit, but so
sex-to be penetrated-well, socially the stigma is: he's often my sexual adventures have begun with, "Oh, I read
saying that he's really not a man, that he's effeminate-so this in a book," or some other inteLlectuaL idea I want to try
then, what l.J he? Of course, most of the men who want to out. Sometimes I think I'm very unoriginal; I have to read
get fucked put out a very "masculine" facade -they're about it before I get the idea.) Anyway, after reading
not the kind of person who walks into a room and you what Samoi.J was putting out and hearing these debates
say to yourself, "I know that man wants to get fucked in about SM, I went to my lover and said, "We have to try
the ass! " - I mean, you would never know! this, because I have to find out whether it's evil incarnate
The stigma attached to this is just a stupid prejudice; (like some of my friends say) or whether this is the new
in fact, being entered by somebody is a very profound sexual liberation."
psychological (as well as physical) experience. Submit- Actually, my first attempts at fetishistic SM were more
ting to someone else's fingers or cock and letting them fill like a LaureL d HarJy film than either evil or liberation. At
you up is really intimate-who wouldn't like that? 1 feel Modern Times bookstore 1 had been reading some of my
sorry for any man who has never been penetrated before, poetry where 1 talked about threatening my lover with a
because they haven't experienced something sexually knife in bed (erotically). Somebody heard me reading
that's 010 powerful- again, it's that fear ofinten.Jity. these poems and a few days later I got a letter saying,
For a woman to say that she likes to be fucked in the "Hi, we're ~ gals starting a magazine called On Our
ass doesn't have anything to do with homosexuality. No Baclc.J ... " When 1 read that I burst into laughter be-
one would think you were a lesbian, or think you were cause 1 knew e..:actLy why they were making fun of the
any less of a "woman." It's more like: "you're cheap and feminist newspaper Off Our Baclc.J which had been den i-

216
grating the sexual voices coming up in recent years. This addressing. By and large this press said [about us],
particular paper had been condemning all the discussion "They're racist, they're anti-Semitic, they're anti-femi-
about SM, butch-femme, kinky sex-saying this was nist, they're woman-hating, they're sick, they're objecti-
"wrong" and "anti-feminist." And here were a couple of fYing, they're demeaning" -we were called every name
women starting a magazine that turned that title on its in the book! Or, people who were being "objective"
head. would like ol1e thing in our magazine but tear apart
They said they really enjoyed my poetry-well, can everything else. Nevertheless, the reaction of your aver-
you imagine? My poetry was so obscure that out of all age-dyke-on-the-street was, "Give me one 1101l'!" Obvi-
twenty people who heard it, I couldn't believe I would ously lesbians were starved for some kind of ,If.clla!
get a letter like that. And it continued, "Would you like to recognition.
submit some of your writing?" So I sent in some erotic We started discovering things we hadn't been real-
work I had done, and also offered any help I could give. I ized. For example, before 011 Dill' Back.l, you rarely saw
had been doing "commie" papers, underground papers, lesbian faces in print unless they were dead: a photo of
trade union papers and other radical propaganda since Gertrude Stein. You just didn't see pictures of contempo-
high school- I knew a little bit about how to make it rary women who were gay. But in Oil Dill' Back,! that
happen. started happening on a regular basis: you could look at
Eventually I called the phone number on the letter all these different girls and say, "Migod - she's gay and
and asked, "What's up? I've been waiting e!'ery day for she lives in Iowa!" (or wherever). Secondly, there was no
you to publish this magazine!" And they invited me over national lesbian magazine-there was nothing that lesbi-
to meet them. When I did, I realized they were new to all ans all over the country could connect to and read, that
this. They had some great material, but no money. The was like Oil Dill' BackJ. Also, our production standards
first contributors to 011 Dill' BackJ included people who were wildly slick compared to anything that had come
are some of the most popular lesbian writers today. I out of the lesbian community before.
think about Joan Nestle's story in that first issue; about There's always been this talk that lesbians don't have
Tee Corinne; Honey Lee Cottrell did our first center- as much money, but it's not like lesbians as a whole are
fold - a take-off on Playboy which we called "Bull Dyker below the poverty line. That isn't the reason the lesbian
of the Month." I did my first "Toys For Us" column press never had anything that looked professional or
because I wanted to tell why vibrators were the best slick ...
thing that had happened since sliced bread -there were
a lot of really great contributions to that first issue.
One of the founders, Debi, was a stripper. She knew
so many gay strippers that she said, "Let's have a'Lesbi- I finished a lecture and someone
ans Only l' strip show to raise money for the first issue"-
asked, UHow come you dykes are
and that's exactly what we did. I sold ads to everybody I
had met through Good Vibrations; we sold advance sub- all so fat and ugly?!"
scriptions to people on the Samol.J mailing list, and Debi
organized this incredible strip show. The first one was at
the Baybrick Inn, a lesbian bar here, and the second was
at Caesar's Palace, which resembles a lost Havana night-
club. • AJ: I think that's true of a lot of fringe groups:
It was so much fun having those shows -the strippers basically, they internalize and perpetuate their own
were so excited to be performing for women. And the ghetto-ization.
lIJomel1- it was like taking kids to Disneyland for the first • SB: Working on 011 Dill' BackJ, you had to learn how
time, because women are not accustomed to gathering to become a journalist, a graphic artist, a business per-
together for a !ll.Jtjll! purpose ... to be enjoying some- son -which is always shocking to artists and revolution-
thing Je;r:ua! together-that never happens with women. aries who don't think of themselves as having much
(It happens subliminally when you're with other girls at going in the left brain. You don't think of yourself as a
pajama parties, but not on purpose 1) bll.,il1eJd perdOIl, you think, ''I'm trying to smash the state
Then we took our first issue to the Gay Day Parade and destroy sexual inhibitions!"
and hoped it would sell enough so we could pay the • AJ: Taking responsibility is important, regardless
printer the other half we owed -and fortunately it took what you do creatively. Our society is so full of these
off. sick dichotomies: either/or syndromes where either
• AJ: So this struck a real nerve in the community? you're a sterile business person, or you're a creative
• SB: It was incredibly popular. In terms of the variety nut who can't function-
that can be found in the lesbian community, the lesbian • SB: 011 Dill' BackJ offered a voice for a lot of incredi-
feminist press reflects a very minority point of view- ble talent that had no place to be expressed before. I also
there probably has never been a press which is so pre- found that my columns, 'Toys For Us" (in which suppos-
Jcriptive rather than deJcriptive with regard to whom it's edly I was dispensing sexual advice: I might visit a lesbi-

217
an community in Chicago and describe what it was like, this sentence: "Some of the most beautiful stars in our
or tell about how I got pierced, or write about fisting) Hollywood galaxy are secret lesbians." I always loved
turned out to be "milestones"! I mean, no one had ever reading that sentence, because the other side of the dyke
written about vaginal fisting before, and they still who doesn't get her hair styled, doesn't wear makeup,
haven't-to the best of my knowledge. There were so and has a beer gut ... is that: many lesbians are totally
many things to write about. I'd always loved to write but entranced by beauty and glamour. Some people call them
had never had such a devoted and diverse audience as I "lipstick lesbians," but this has been going on a long
found in On Our BackJ. And what I learned at Good time - Greta Garbo was one of the most beautiful wom-
Vibrations talking to people about sex, I channeled into en in Hollywood; so was Marlene Dietrich-all these
this column. I found I could use humor to make every- women have passed away now, so we can taLk about
body let their hair down about issues that otherwise no them. But just imagine who the contemporary stars might
one would talk about. be who are bisexual or gay, and the answer to that
students question is both 1) you don't comprehend the
diversity oflesbians; how many different kinds of women
they are, and the different kinds of "looks" they're into;
2) is the idea that: if you aren't into men, you must not
Don't you shudder if have any personal aesthetics or care about your looks?
somebody calls you IIstraight" (Do I have to mention that the person who asked this
because they see you with a question must have weighed 200 pounds, didn't comb his
hair, and wore really ugly, mismatching clothes? It was
man? The fact is: nohody wants
like the pot calling the kettle black-that was an outra-
to b e II stralg
• ht " anymore.
geous question.)
So I did lectures; I kept doing my performance art,
but more and more just getting out the next issue of On
Our Back,} was the performance-I didn't have time for
anything else. We went from quarterly to bimonthly; we
• AJ: Didn't you also begin lecturing in the school created the idea of a lesbian pictorial. When we started
system about sex instruction for children? out, there were three women who had done lesbian erotic
• SB: I always did that. Some of my friends who worked portraiture: Honey Lee, Tee Corinne, and Morgan Gwen-
in the public school system were instrumental in setting wald-and that was it. We put together pictorials of
up programs where "Dick and Jane Homo" come to sex couples or single women, sometimes in a documentary
education class and talk about themselves (both in high style or sometimes to 'create a fantasy. It was thrilling-
school and college). Here, essentially you're laying your- we were looking at every gay and straight men's maga-
self open to anything anybody wants to say, because in zine to see, "How do you layout a pictorial? What's a
general young people won't hold their prejudices back. pictorial all about?" and we were also completely reject-
Plus, you tell them, "Please don't try to be polite." So if ing the "standards" for those pictorials. Our women were
you've finished your lecture and someone asks, "Well- very diverse and individualistic in their looks, and we
how come you dykes are all so fat and ugly?" instead of were very excited to see the reaction to these women.
saying, "Well- I never!" and stomping out, you have to I remember with Honey Lee's centerfolds, "Bull Dyke
stand there and reply, "Do you think I'm fat and ugly?" of the Month." She got 3 responses: 1) the people who -
(When that happened, for a second I was so crushed.) wanted to call her up in the middle of the night and talk
But what that student asked reflects a fairly common dirty; the people who had found their dream dyke. 2)
prejudice: that the reason women turn lesbian is because people who asked, "What is this ugly dyke doing in the
they're too fat or ugly to attract a man. "If you have to middle of On Our BackJ? I'm so disgusted. If you want to
turn to women, you must be so unattractive that a man know what a good-looking woman looks like, I suggest
wouldn't be interested in you." On the one hand, women you look at PenthollJe. " And that was a very strong lesbian
who are lesbian aren't worried about whether their pussy reaction: "I do not like looking at butch women, thank
is too big or not, or whether they're blonde, or whether you very much. This embarrasses me; I don't identifY
their bust is big enough -lesbians do not impose the with it, and get it out of here!" 3) (and this happened
kind of sexual demands or pressure that straight culture mostly among lesbian feminists) women who would say,
puts on women. That's a very pleasing and comforting "Wow! This is really great: to show a woman who is not
part of lesbianism - not to always have to think your the conventional pretty babe. But it doesn't turn me on,
makeup's on trial, in order to find a partner. But ... and I don't know what I'm supposed to do."
lesbians are just as attracted to beauty as anybody. And This sounds so young and innocent now, but a corner-
we certainly have our standards about what we do or stone of lesbians exploring sexuality is: we had a political
don't find attractive ... point of view informed by feminism about' how "we
I remember I had this book from the '40s which gave should accept ourselves, and love ourselves." And then,
"secret" insights into lesbians. One chapter contained when we had to talk about our fantasies and what turned

218
us on -well, granola didn't necessarily turn us on! Even peer pressure within a politically dogmatic milieu; it's
though that was what we ate in the morning, that isn't because your mama told you not to do it-and that's the
what we wanted to look at pictures of. And to this day, bottom line.
this issue still bothers people. I think about all the silly things I didn't do when I was
• AJ: It bothers people who really want Playboy first sexual because I thought they weren't "politically
types? correct." I remember not fucking my girlfriend because
• SB: Some of them might have wanted Playboy types; that would be "patriarchal" and "objectifYing" her. I re-
some of them may have wanted James Dean -who knoll'd member the first time a man ever spanked me in sex-I
what they all wanted?! Honey Lee's centerfold was erot- had an orgasm and I remember thinking, "Ohmigod!" As
ic but it was also making a point: you could enjoy the soon as he had stopped, I pulled myself up in a very
"political" point and not get o//on it, or you could get off pristine way and said, "Don't you ever, eperdo that again!"
on it anJ enjoy the political point. It was startling to and made this little note to myself that "he was probably
realize that a lot of women weren't accustomed to look- mentally ill." This was after my orgasm! Now I'm so
ing at pictures with an attitude of dubjectificatwn. People embarrassed - I wish I could write him a "Thank You"
would say incredible things like, "How can I look at this letter now (but who knows where he is?): 'Tm sorry- I
picture and masturbate? For all I know, this woman was so wrong, you were so right!" And I was objecting to
might be a racut. She might be a child-beater. She might that because of peer group pressure. When I really think
be a meat-eater. She might be mean to her cats. How do about my most serious resistance to sexual exploration, it
we know what she's really like?" isn't because of the things I learned in the '70s from my
This is like the foundation of an education in the arts, political idols, it's because of my Catholic Girls' School
or when you grow up as a child and learn about what's education, and the kind of little girl I was brought up to
"real" and what's fantasy; what's "pretend" and what's be.
"not pretend." You can look at a picture and imagine
anything you want; it doesn't matter who the person in
the picture "is" or what they "really" do-that's beside
the point. I think part of our consciousness knows that The first time a man spanked
very well-but there's part that's troubleJ by it. I think
this issue comes up for our models who aren't profession-
me - I had an orgasm, then said,
al. Almost all the models who posed for On Our Back" liD on I t you ever, ever d0 t hat agaIn.
. '"
were amateurs, first-timers, who had to learn and realize
that people would look at that picture and imagine any-
thing they pleased. That's very difficult for a newcomer.
And if you're a feminist, it's even more difficult because
there's this idea that someone is going to "exploit" your • AJ: I believe we have to position ourselves outside
image and think something about you that you don't of the society for political gain and strength and mobi-
want them to think! lizing, such as taking on a lesbian moniker for political
• AJ: We have a whole phallic Judeo-Christian mind! reasons: proclaim "I'm a lesbian!" or, "I'm gay!" or,
body split culture that also is very afraid of creativity. ''I'm in ACT UP!" or whatever. But when we get to
Creativity, fantasy, eroticism, playfulness, artifice, and areas of sexuality and desire, what do we want a
all the arts are interconnected to social change or revolutionjor? It's to have a more enjoyable life.
"revolution." A lot of women who should be involved • SB: I've come full circle on these labels. At first I was
in feminist/planetary revolution aren't, because of the so angry about lesbianism being devoid of any sexual
pressure of "Who's more feminist than thou?" Or, "If I content, but now I feel that to tell someone you're "lesbi-
actually have desire that's not 'politically correct,' then an" or "gay" says so little about what your Je.T life is about
that it's almost useless. I'd rather just have it be apolitical
• SB: As On Our BackJ developed and I began to travel label now. I can't believe I've come that far. When I was
and meet people in other cities that read the magazine, I 16 I remember being very excited when I got my first
started to realize that this ideology that people call "polit- "DYKE" pin. I wore it to a demonstration and I wore it
ically correct" was maintained by so few people -the to school, and I fucked both boys and girls. I did that
ideology itself is hypocrisy. These few people (who then and I do now. Putting a "DYKE" button on chal-
couldn't even live up to it) were the only ones who even lenged all those people who thought that I was straight
believed in it; meanwhile, everyone else could really care (they neper think there's a gay person around them); it
less. I mean, if a person isn't being sexually open, it's not challenged their idea of what a dyke "looked like" or
because some important lesbian is telling them they "was" -and this was worth el'ery JeconJ of it! I'd do it a
can't-it's because of very simple, powerful inhibitions million times over. This was an example of a political
and taboos you've had since you were a child. Which is a statement that I couldn't possibly regret.
much more honest depiction of why people aren't more As far as finding women I was attracted to - I'm not
out there about their erotic identities. It isn't because of attracted to all lesbians; I'm not attracted to all women.

219
You know what I'm talking about-there's this thing: "Doing things for the '90s!" And my Number One de-
"Well, if you're gay, it's a wonder I haven't ripped your mand was: "Do not tell me what you are, tell me what
clothes off!" Just as homosexuals are supposed to be you do. Because your labels mean nothing to me any-
compulsively attracted to anyone of the same sex ... more."
• AJ: That's such a homophobic attitude: If you're a I remember when I would tell people I was a socialist;
lesbian (or gay), you sexualize the world. Whereas we it was totally hopeless -what the fuck does that mean
don't assume that every straight woman wants to fuck anymore? Ifyou tell somebodyyou're a "feminist" -very
every man that walks by. Somehow with gays there's little meaning is clear. Labels only work when there's
the myth that you're not only assumed to be "avail- about 5 people who are using them -as soon as anybody
able," but also "desirous" of anyone else who's gay. else starts agreeing with you and using that label, it
• SB: You have to be a nymphomaniac-yes! So of becomes more and more meaningless. The thing that's so
course it's helpful to be able to say you're a lesbian, or funny about the gay movement is: the more people that
introduce yourself as a lesbian as a shortcut, because lots come out of the closet and say, ''I'm queer and I'm proud
of times it's not appropriate for you to say, "Here's what and I'm out of the closet and I could give a damn what
my erotic identity is all about. It won't be in one word; anybody thinks about me anymore!" -the less "inclu-
it'll take a paragraph or two" -ifyou can even describe it sive" our gay label becomes. And there's kind of a mourn-
at all; it's hard. Lots of times it's largely unconscious; ing of that passing, like, "Gee, we all used to be in this
most people haven't given it a lot of thought. Everyone's family and know each other so well, and understand
supposed to be straight; boys are supposed to be attract- what we could expect from each other, and now we can't
ed to girls and want to do a certain thing in bed (and vice do that anymore." You can't assume that the gay person
versa), and to deviate from that at all puts you in a sitting next to you shares your political point of view, or
"queer" category. your family background, or your sexual interests.
• AJ: We have to have a different structure if we're
going to survive as a human species. Can't we conceive
of a gay or lesbian movement that would include
"straight" people?
I can't think of another • SB: But the fact is that nobody wants to be 'straight"
subject that binds people anymore. Don't you shudder if somebody calls
together as clearly as .1ex. you "straight" because they see you with a man? Because
you don't/eeL straight; you feel you're much more com-
plex than the word "straight" would indicate to anybody.
• AJ: To somebody like Jesse Helms we're all going
to get locked up anyway. The question is: how do you
To tell people about the Kinsey scale, and that we're have a revolutionary movement that's inclusionary rath-
on a continuum from 0 to 6, and that most people are not er than exclusionary?
O's or 6's but are somewhere in the middle-that's one • SB: A sexual liberation movement, in order to be
thing. But the other thing is: why is that so unpopular as a truly integrated and at its most powerful, would be a
way to describe people? In fact, the labels people use movement that aLready took gay civil rights for granted.
(lesbian, gay, bisexual) depending on the time, place, bus And as long as there is institutionalized homophobia and
stop you're sitting at, and words you use, mean a lot more gay discrimination in terms of jaiL housing, jobs, mar-
than who you fuck. riage and all that-as long as that exists, the sexual
For example, a recent issue of Bay Timed reported this liberation movement is going to be dtlllzted, because those
raging controversy about bisexuals in the gay movement. things are so important-they're like a big boulder lying
One fellow who was just being very candid said he on top of everybody's face-you can't breathe.
thought men who called themselves "bisexual" were real- The people who are most interested in the sexual
ly saying that they liked men and women - but they like liberation aspect tend to be people who are living in
women a little bit better. He qualified this, "Well, maybe Bohemian communities where they aren't often faced
dome people don't mean this, but that's what everyone with the State sticking its morality up your ass, right? It
understands you to be saying." And I thought that was a only happens every once in a while, where suddenly we
good observation on his part: that when we call ourselves realize, "Ohmigod, my partner just died and I'm not
these various names, we're not speaking "clinically" or being allowed into the hospital!" Then, when things like
being understood clinically; we're being understood with that happen to you; when you've been totally out of the
whatever's in the air; whatever our peers are deciding closet for year.f, your mind is blown! You can't beLie,'e
this label means politically and culturally. Language can you're being treated like this, because that's not where
be very frustrating! you're at intellectually, and nobody you know .fociaLLy is
I remember for my 1990 New Years Column I decided like that.
I wanted to be like Jeanne Dixon or Andy Rooney and When we're among ourselves and we're writing and
make all these predictions and demand that people start talking and discussing, we feel like, "Oh, give me a

220
 break - I don't care about the Equal Rights Amend-
ment." Our mind and our sexual desires and our sophis-
tication about our culture has gone 'way ahead of fighting Su"ie Se.\fJert VollI
Jesse Helms; we're on another planet! And it's hard to Herotica II (editor)
be patient - I get exasperated with the mainstream gay SIt.Jie Se;>:pert'" Le,lhian Se.l: World
political movement because being out of the closet is Herotica: a collection of women's erotic fiction
How to Read a Dirty IIfopie.· essays on erotic film & commercial
such olJ news to me. But when I travel, I can see how
pornography
much of an issue it Jtill is for so many people for whom
that just isn't possible. When I go to Arkansas to speak, Periodicall
they don't even put the word "gay" or "lesbian" on the
On Our Back,l (Editor, Summer 1984-May 1991)
flyer advertising me because if they did, none of the gays
Penthowe Forum (Film Columnist; Contributing Editor)
or lesbians would come! Because no one would want to
Young Lwt Comic: 20th Anniversary Edition (Co-Editor)
be deen going to an event that proclaimed "gay" or "lesbi- Good Vwration Erotic Video Lihrary Catalog, 1989-present
an" on the leaflet-that's how crazy things are!
This is difficult for me to accept: the fact that I'm more
interested philosophically in sexual liberation and in push- "Masculinity in the 90s," EJquire Oct 1991
ing artistic boundaries than I am in joining the Demo- "Lesbians in the 90s," The AJpocate Jan 1990
cratic party and trying to get Mr XYZ elected. That's not "1968-1988,20 Years of Erotic Film," Forum Jan 1989
my bent politically or artistically - I don't want to do "Contemporary Women's Erotica," Lamhda Ri.'lizg Book Re-
that. Yet I know that my chances for a really broad port 1988
sexual liberation movement are hampered by the fact "When Women Talk About Sex," Utne Reader, Fall 1988
that basic civil rights are not, and have never been, "Profile of Chris Rage," The Adl'ocate Sept 1988
secured. "The Bloom in Women's Erotica," Whole Earth ReP. Fall 1986
• AJ: I keep thinking that the crisis is so deep in this "Safe Sex Behind the Green Door," Forum 1986
culture, and the polarizafon between the rich and the
poor so deep, that in order for any dispossessed groups
to make any ground, we're all going to have to band "Reading, Writing and Rethinking Erotica" I-Day work-
together somehow. It was so disheartening to read shop
"How To Read a Dirty Movie," a film clipllecture presenta-
recently how blacks pressuring for Civil Rights legis-
tion
lation were so upset about gay and lesbian demands-
"Politics of Sexuality," a semester-long program, UC Santa
it's like, the resources are so scarce that all the Cruz
disenfranchised groups are fighting each other over "All Girl Action: the history of lesbian eroticism in Holly-
these pathetic crumbs. Then, of course, the power wood, hardcore and alternative cinema," a film clip/
structure wins. Take your typical white WASP Repub- lecture presentation
licans-they are very bonded together; they don't have "Sex in Public Erotic Expression, Censorship, and Sexual
much in-fighting. So how can all us dispossessed cre- Repression," lecture
ate a place where we can all work together? "The Bloom in Women's Erotica," lecture
• SB: Well, sex is a great common denominator. I've "Reading, Writing and Rethinking Erotica," sex-wrItmg
had people come up to me after my talks and ask if I felt workshop ("Learn how to write a killer orgasm
scene. , .")
that some of my observations about men, women and sex
roles only pertained to whites, or to the middle-class, or
to an "American" point of view. It's funny because I
thought, "Ifyou knew me and the way I grew up - Irish- Phil Donahue Show, May 1991
Gay d Le.Jhwn Erotica in the US, BBC Documentary by Clare
Catholic working class, but education was a big deal-
Bevin, Fall 1991
and the kind of schools I went to, and the kids I grew up
People Are Talking, talkshow produced by Nina Sullivan,
with ... then yeJ, a lot of my observations come from 1989
that point of view." But women's sexual oppression, un- Nell'd at 10, special documentary feature on women's erotica
fortunately, is so worldwide that there's really no one by Abby Sterling, 1988
who could get up and say, "Well gee, with the way / grew Peril or PLea.mre.' feminMm d pomography, video by Andrea
up as a woman I couldn't possibly relate to the kind of Torrice, 1989
sexual oppression you're talking about." Forget it! I'm StrippeJ Bare: women in the de.l: indwtry Jpeak out, video feature
crossing that barrier because women have more in com- by Caitlin Manning, 1988
mon about sexual denial and invisibility than we have The Virgin Machine, feature film by Monica Treut, 1988
differences. I can't think of another subject that binds Articled eJ /Iltervielll,l
people together as clearly as .lex. That's been essential
and key to my work. Everyone I meet who tells me have appeared in PlaybOy, LA Weekly, SF Chronicle, Rolling
something about the way they grew up and their sexual- Stone, Mother Jane,}, SF Emminer, Toronto GlObe d Mail,
ity is letting me in on another piece ofthe pu.;:.:::ie. • • • Fri.,ko magazine.

221
For the psychoanalyst, ignorance and fear are not two A woman, especially if she have the misfortune of know-
separate things. There's an ignorance that exists through ing anything, should conceal it as well as she can.
fear. We hide certain things from ourselves to defend -Jane Austen
ourselves against them. With sex, this is precisely the
case. - from Pasolini's film, Love MeetingJ
•
Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read histo-
•
I know nothing that is beyond the reach of the human
ry, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience and
rebellion that progress has been made.
mind -except truth. - Lautreamont - Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man Under Socialism
•
Love is not Happiness.-Lautreamont
•
There is no surer way of subduing and oppressing the
•
The spiritualities of male and female mystics were differ-
woman than with repeated pregnancies. The demands
this makes on the woman occupy and wear her out till she
ent. Women were more apt to somatize religious experi- cannot make any demands for herself.
ence and to write in intense bodily metaphors; women - Dr. Hedy Porteous, Sex and Identity
mystics were more likely than men to receive graphically
physical visions of God. The most bizarre bodily occur- ARE MEN REALLY THE ENEMY?
•
rences associated with women (e.g. stigmata, incorrupt- (1) When I am yelled at in the street I am (a) flattered (b)
ibility of the cadaver in death, mystical lactations and annoyed (c) astonished (d) sure I have been recognized.
pregnancies, catatonic trances, ecstatic nosebleeds, mi- (2) When I am yelled at in the street I respond by (a)
raculous inedia, eating and drinking pus, visions of bleed- lowering my head and walking quicker (b) smiling sweetly
ing hosts) either first appear in the twelfth and thirteenth and nodding (c) addressing myself to the specific content
centuries or increase significantly in frequency at that of the yeller and replying appropriately (d) pretending it
time. The body, and in particular the female body, seems was not I who was yelled at and that I am not in that place
to have begun to behave in new ways at a particular and that he is not real and I am not real and thus simply
moment in the European past. The question is: Why'is extracting myself from the situation.
this so? -Caroline W. Bynum, "The Female Body & Reli- (3) Most rapes are committed by (a) women (b) children
gious Practice in the Later Middle Ages," ZulU (c) men (perverts) (d) I am unable to distinguish rape
•
The Surrealists handed out leaflets in the streets before
from ordinary sexual relations .
(4) If I could do away with anything I wanted, the first
every new project and assured everybody that they, too, thing I would do away with is: (a) the family (b) the state
could be artists if they would only release the hidden (c) private property (d) menstrual periods (e) all of the
creativity in their own unconscious minds. above. -RAT women questionnaire (NY underground pa-
- Helena Lewis, The PoLitieJ ofSurreaLiJm per taken over by women in 1970)

Men created civilization in the image of a perpetual

•
All the pursuits of men are the pursuits of women also,
erection: a pregnant phallus. - Phyllis Chesler, AbouL Men but in all of them' a woman is inferior to a man. - Plato
•
Our modern society is engaged in polishing and decorat-
•
No healthy male is ever actually modest. His conversa-
ing the cage in which humanity is kept imprisoned. tion is one endless boast-often covert, but always undi-
- EnLigbtelUd AnarchiJm luted.-H.L. Mencken
•
Pleasure is nature's test, her sign of approval.
•
To build a revolution It IS necesary to break all your
- Oscar Wilde interior chains.-graffiti, May '68

222
The weakness of their reasoning faculty also explains Among theologians, lawyers, and philosophers, discus-
why women show more sympathy for the unfortunate sion of women was almost always linked to marriage.
than men.-Schopenhauer, "On Women" Thinkers seemed unable to imagine a social role for
•
How can a revolution be made without executions?
unattached females. This psychological blind spot is one
way to explain why a disproportionally high number of
-Lenin accused witches were widows and other unmarried wom-
•
Becoming masculine does not involve simple "imprint-
en not under the rule of men .
- Joseph K1aits, Servanu ofSatan: The Age ofthe Witch Hunu
ing." One has to dare to do certain activities which are
dangerous and can be painful. There is nothing automat-
•
Can man be free if woman be a slave? -Shelley
ic about fighting.-Norman Mailer
•
•
Revolution must happen inside us before it is achieved in
By 1600 advanced medical opinion, spurred by improved
understanding of female anatomy, led most leading phy-
reality... A cop sleeps inside each of us - it is necessary sicians to discard the Platonic image of the migratory
to kill him! -graffiti, May '68 uterllJ . .. "Woman's unnatural, insatiable lust," as the
•
Action must not be a reaction bu a creation ... Speak to
medically learned Thomas Burton put it, was proverbial,
and her well-known capacity for multiple orgasms
your neighbors; open the windows of your heart . . . prompted the belief that she habitually exhausted and
Mind your ears, they have walls ... We are reassured: ran down her mate in satisfYing her carnal appetites.
two and two no longer make four. -graffiti, May '68 - Joseph K1aits, Servanu ofSatan: TheAge ofthe Witch Hunu
•
When men and women agree, it is only in their conclu-
•
Mae West's sexuality, the most overt in the history of the
sions; their reasons are always different. cinema, could only be tolerated on the screen because she
- George Santayana I did not arrive in Hollywood until she had reached the age
• of menopause. - Angela Carter, The Sa()eian Woman
Being a woman is a terribly difficult task, since it consists
principally in dealing with men.-Joseph Conrad
•
An astonished eyewitness at Salem recounted how the
•
Don't liberate me - I'll do it myself! -graffiti, May '68
Puritan Cotton Mather publicly exposed and fondled the
breasts of a seventeen-year-old girl as she lay writhing in
•
'According to Fred Lawrence Guiles' biography of her,
a fit of ostensibly demonic possession .
- Joseph K1aits, Servanu ofSatan: The Age ofthe Witch Hunu
Norma Jean, Marilyn Monroe's agent told her in 1946: "I
have a call for a light blonde-honey or platinum." In this
•
Art is the most intense mode of inJivUJuaLwm the world
world, women may be ordered like steaks: well-done, has known. - Oscar Wilde, The Soul ofMan Under SocialiJrn
medium rare, or bloody.
- Angela Carter, The S~eian Woman
•
The male is completely egocentric, trapped inside him-
•
Free love -as iflove is anything 6ut free. Man has bought
self, incapable of empathizing or identifYing with others,
of love, friendship, affection or tenderness. He is a com-
brains, but all the millions in the world have failed to buy pletely isolated unit, incapable of rapport with anyone...
love. - Emma (;Qldman, Marriage and Love He is a half-dead, unresponsive lump-consequently he

•
Where is the ebullient infinite woman who-immersed
is at best an utter bore... Eaten up with guilt, shame,
fears and insecurities and obtaining, ifhe's lucky, a barely
as she was in her naivete, kept in the dark about herself, perceptible physical feeling, the male is, nonetheless,
led into self-disdain by the great arm of parental-conjugal obsessed with screwing; he'll swim a river of.snot, wade
phallocentrism - hasn't been ashamed of her strength? nostril-deep through a mile of vomit, if he thinks there'll
Who, surprised and horrified by the fantastic tumult of be a friendly pussy awaiting him. He'll screw a woman he
her drives, hasn't accused herself of being a monster? despises, any snaggle-toothed hag, and furthermore, pay
- Helene Cixous, quoted in Surreali.Jrn and Women for the opportunity. Why? - Valerie Solanis, S.C.U.M.

•
God recognizes as freedom only that which is extended
Manifesto (Society for Cutting Up Men)
•
to 60th sexes and not to one alone. All the seeds of social In the barbarian order it is necessary to brutalize women,
abominations such as savagery, barbarism, and civiliza- to convince them that they have no souls, so as to dispose
tion have as their sole pivot the subjection of women. them to allow themselves to be sold on the market and
-DeJignfor Utopia, Selected Writings of Charles Fourier shut up in a harem. - The Utopian ViJion of Charw Fourier

•
It is upon women that civilization weighs; it is for women The anarchist is the observer who sees what he sees and
to attack it.-IbUJ not what it is customary to see. - Paul Valery

223
There is a permanent conspiracy against anything that is When we consider the phenomenon of witch burning in
original-that's what you have to get inside your head. Europe, we know that for every man burned at the stake
- Flaubert, letter to Louise Collet as a witch, thousands and thousands of women were
•
Although they are housed on her person, from the mo-
burned. Women were burned at the stake, accused by
men, tortured by men, tried by men and executed by
ment they begin to show, a female discovers that her men.-Jeffrey Masson, A Dark Science
breasts are claimed by others. Parents and relatives mark
their appearance as a landmark event, schoolmates take
•
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when
notice, girlfriends compare, boys zero in; later a husband, they do it from religious conviction.-Pascal
a lover, a baby expect a proprietary share.
-Susan Brownmiller, Femininity
•
All the statistics-whether they come from feminists, or
•
Civilization, that great fraud of our times, has promised
the LoJAngefeJ Tim.eJ, or the government-are frightening
in their implications: one in three women, before the age
man that by complicating his existence it would multiply of eighteen, will be the victim of sexual assault. If we add
his pleasures. .. Civilization has promised man free- to this figure rape and sexual harassment, there is hardly
dom, at the cost of giving up everything dear to him, a woman growing up in our society who, at some time in
which it arrogantly treated as lies and fantasies ... her life, will not be subjected to unwanted sexual aggres-
Hour by hour needs increase and are nearly always sion. -Jeffrey Masson, A Dark Science
unsatisfied, peopling the earth with discontented rebels.
The superfluous has become a necessity and luxuries
•
Women's Studies are a force that could revolutionize the
indispensable. - Isabelle Eberhardt (Tbe Life ofIJabell.eEber- very structures of knowledge ...
bardt by Annette Kobak) -Jane Gallop, Reading Lacan
•
Do not waste your time on social questions. What is the
•
Political revolution will come about through Jexual libera-
matter with the poor is Poverty; what is the matter with tion and therefore through the liberation 0/ wom.en. That is
the rich is Uselessness.-George Bernard Shaw why contemporary societies, under pressure of public
•
There can be no doubt that, historically, psychosurgery
opinion, are only making a show of liberating woman and
tolerating the kind of sexuality that is not much more
has been used predominantly against women ... wom- than a safety-valve. -Jean Markale, Women of tbe CeLt.!
en are more than twice as likely to be subjected to lobot-
omy and electroshock as men. "The fact that she is
•
I have never been attracted by fecundity. It is the refusal
returned to being a satisfactory housewife and mother is of utility: participation in the continuity of the species is
again typical of psychosurgery studies. Not only have the an al/Jication. In order to have children, a humility nearly
vast majority of patients been women, but the two most inconceivable in the modern world is necessary, a brutal-
in-depth pro-lobotomy studies have already told us psy- ized passivity or a mad pretension... Myself, I know
chosurgery is much more effective on women than men, that I belong with the idea of Lilith, the anti-Eve, and
because women can more easily be returned home to that my universe is that of the spirit. Physical maternity
function as partially crippled, brain-damaged housewives, instinctively repulses me. - Leonor Fini
while there are no social or occupational roles for partial-
ly crippled, brain-damaged men." -testimony of Peter
•
People wore eyeglasses for 4 centuries before a London
Breggin before Senator Edward Kennedy's Subcommittee optician named Edward Scarlett thought of attaching
on Health in the U.S., CongruJwnal Record them to ears in 1730.
•
Knock hard -life is deaf! - Mimi Parent
•
If two people who are attracted to each other by pure
•
The goal of sexual repression is to produce an individual
friendship wish to conclude brotherhood, the man and
not the girl first proposes it with the words, "I want to
who is adjusted to the authoritarian order and will sub- have a sister now." She agrees. In the presence of many
mit to it in spite of all misery and degradation. others they mutually cut a small wound in the palm of
- Wilhelm Reich, Tbe MaJJ PJycbology ofFaJckJm their right hand, near the thumb, and suck each other's
•
In Lancaster, Wisconsin, in 1982, Grant County judge
blood. They have then become brother and sister "as of
one belly." Now they must always stand by each other in
WJliam Rinecke sentenced Ralph Snodgrass, twenty- all matters, the brother must protect his sister. Valuable
four, convicted of sexually assaulting the hve-year-old gifts are mutually exchanged. Even prostitutes behave
daughter of the woman with whom he lived, to only tenderly, modestly and with consideration towards such
ninety days in jail, because the girl was "an unusually blood brothers. I repeat, coitus between them is out of
sexually promiscuous young lady. No way do I believe the question, it would be like incest. Such blood brother-
that Mr Snodgrass initiated sexual contact." hood can take place only between members of two differ-
-BoJlon Globe, February 11, 1982 ent tribes, e.g. the Kikuyu and the Nandi. - VOOdOO Brod

224
This is a government of, by, and for a bunch of tUJholu There is a crucial difference between the criminal and the
Men in government butt-fuck whoever gets in the way of outlaw. The criminal is a perverse rebel who acts out
their war games, their head trips, and their death trips. agaillJt the law, a subnormal person who is unable to care
Life is all about getting fucked-as in over, lip, and with enough about others to bear adult responsibilities. The
... I would inspire terrorism, assassination and snip- outlaw is a supranormal individual who cares about oth-
ing-but I'm not a politician.-Lydia Lunch ers too much to accept the limitations on erOJ that are
•
Do away with the motive and you do away with the
imposed by normal life. Thus the outlaw quest moves
outJlde and 6eyond, not agaillJt the law. While the rebel is
sin. - Cervantes merely rejecting the established, the outlaw is motivated
•
I am not interested in policing the boundaries between
by a quest for autonomy, self-government ... not rooted
in any undigested psychological need to rebel, but in a
nature and culture-quite the opposite, I am edified by passion for justice, dignity and freedom. The trans-moral
the traffic. Indeed, I have always preferred the prospect conscience of the outlaw is the inner voice of a universal
of pregnancy with the embryo of another species. community struggling to be born.
- Donna Haraway, Primate ViJiofld -Sam Keen, Tbe Pa.fJionate Life: Staged ofLoving
•
Animals have personalities like people and must be stud-
•
All naming is already murder. - Lacan
ied.- Walt Disney •
•
It is specifically the permanent tension between con-
To me naming is about empowerment. It is also a source
of tremendous pleasure. I name everything-typewrit-
struction and deconstruction, identification moves and ers, cars, most things I use -that gives something to me.
destabilization moves, that I see, not as uniquely femi- It is a way to acknowledge the life force in every object.
nist, but as inherent to feminism-and to science. Both Often the names I give to things and people are related to
feminist and scientific disi:ourses are critical projects my past. They are a way to preserve and honor aspects of
built in order to outa6ifize and reimagine their methods that past. - bell hooks, Talking Back
and objects of knowledge, in complex power fields.
- Donna Haraway, Primate ViJiollJ
•
Freud discovered that truth manifests itself in the letter
•
Life as human technological being is evolving toward the
rather than the spirit-that is, in the way things are
actuaffy said rather than in the "intended" meaning.
point at which the only energy on earth will be nuclear - Jane Gallop, Reading Lacan
energy, the simulation of the sun
practically out of the picture already
The humans are
Humans are the
•
Lacan teaches that language speaks the subject, that the
witnesses and agents-selective milieu-of an evolution- speaker is Jubjected to language rather than master of it.
ary mutation which will cancel us out or hold us in reserve - Jane Gallop, Reading Lacan
with "nature" as slaves to the nuclear machines we will
have synthesized to replace ourselves as "masters of the
•
The function ofrepresentation comes to griefwhen words
earth." This calls for consciousness and something more, lose their connection with things and come to stand in the
but what? -Peter Canning, "Here Comes The Sun" place of things-in short, when language represents it-
• self. - Mark Poster, Tbe Mode ofInformation
Only since the 18th century have there been special
clothes, games, and even books designed just for children
•
In [a better] world, children will not be taught epics
... Childhood thus developed out of the printing press. about men who are honored for being violent, or fairy
Only since the 18th century has there been a special tales about children who are lost in frightful woods where
children's language. Part stammer and part squeak, part women are malevolent witches. They will be taught new
private code, even that idiom of transference love - baby myths,· epics, and stories in which human beings are
talk -dates from the point of the printing-press child's good; men are peaceful; and the power of creativity and
emergence. - Laurence Rickels, "Subliminalation" love-symbolized by the sacred Chalice, the holy vessel
•
As de Sade has demonstrated, pleasure-the pursuit of
of life-is the governing principle. In this world, our
drive for justice, equality and freedom, our thirst for
pleasure -emerges only within the alliance between imag- knowledge and spiritual illumination, and our yearning
ination and conventional sign systems: the body is but for love and beauty will at last be freed. And after the
the limited analogue of a pleasure that always comes from bloody detour of androcratic history, both women and
another place always held in place by machined. men will at last find out what being human can mean.
-Sigmund Freud - Riane Eisler, Tbe Cbalice d Tbe BlaOe
•
Americans admit they're liars: 91 % tell pollsters they lie
•
There are no positive terms for a strong, sexual woman.
regularly, and 7% say they'd kill for.$10 million. _Whore or slut do not equal dtud. - Holly Hughes inter-
-S.P. Examiner, 4/29/91 viewed by Rebecca Schneider, TDR

225
No fewer than 74 million women alive today have been When Eve was created, Satan rejoiced.-Mohammed
subjected to female circumcision. In the worst cases they
have had their labia and clitoris scraped or cut away and
•
Is it not commonplace nowadays to say that the forces of
their vaginal opening stitched up with silk, catgut or man have already entered into a relation with the forces
thorns, leaving only a tiny opening for urine and men- of information technology and their third-generation ma-
strual blood. After the operation the girl's legs are bound chines, which together create something other than man:
together to ensure that scar-tissue forms and the condi- indivisible 'man-machine' systems? Is this a union with
tion becomes permanent. Later, when they marry, these silicon instead of carbon? - Gilles Deleuze, Foucault
females suffer the pain of having their artificially reduced
orifices broken open by their husbands ... A side-effect
•
[Women] are confronted virtually with the problem of
is a high number of deaths and serious illnesses caused by reinventing the world of knowledge, of thought, of sym-
the unhygienic conditions under which the operations bols and images. Not of course by repudiating everything
are performed. - Desmond Morris, Bo{}ywatching that has been done, but by subjecting it to exacting
•
The publication of International Archive,J of Booy Technu;ueJ
scrutiny and criticism from the position of women as
subject ... or knower.-Dorothy E. Smith, "Ideological
would be of truly international benefit, providing an Structure and How Women Are Excluded"
inventory of all the possibilities of the human body and of
the methods of apprenticeship and training employed to
•
Freedom is a mYJtery. Freedom depends on the very thing
build up each technique, for there is not one human that limits or denies it-fate, God, biological or social
group in the world which could not make an original determinism, whatever. To carry out its mission, fate
contribution to such an enterprise ... It would also be a counts on the complicity of our freedom, and to be free
project eminen t1y well fitted for counteracting racial prej- we must overcome fate. The dialectics of freedom and
udices, since it would contradict the racialist conceptions fate is the theme of Greek tragedy and Shakespeare,
which try to make out that man is a product of his body, although in Shakespeare fate appears as passion (love,
by demonstrating that it is the other way around: man jealousy, ambition, envy) and as chance. The idea of
has, at all times and in all places, been able to turn his conditional freedom implies the notion of personal re-
body into a product of his techniques and his representa- sponsibility. Each of us, literally, either creates or de-
tions. - Claude Uvi-Strauss,Introdu.ction to the Work ofMarcel stroys his own freedom -a freedom that is always
MaluM precarious.-Octavio paz, intv inPariJ Review #119
•
The society whose modernization has reached the stage
•
Learning to speak is like learning to shoot. - AvitaI Ronell,
of the "integrated spectacle" is characterized by the com- The Telephone Book
bined effect of five principal features: incessant techno-
logical renewal, integration of state and economy,
•
The degree of emancipation of women is an index of the
generalized secrecy, unanswerable lies, and an eternal degree of a society's emancipation.-Charles Fourier
present.
- Guy Debord, Corrunent.l on the Society of the Spectacle
•
In the Buddhist tradition, people used to speak of "en-
•
The future can only be anticipated in the form of an
lightenment" as a kind of returning home. The 3 worlds-
the worlds of form, of non-form, of desire -are not your
absolute oanger. It is that which breaks absolutely with homes. These are places where you wander around for
constituted normality and can only be proclaimed, pre- many existences, alienated from your own nature. So
JelZteo, as a sort of monstrosity. enlightenment is the way to get back. And they speak
-Jacques Derrida, OfGrammatology about efforts to go back -described in terms of the recov-
•
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the
ery of olZeJefj, 0/one J integrity. - Thich I\That Hanh, The Raft IJ
Not The Shore
process he does not become a monster. And when you
look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you.
•
It is common knowledge that women have historically
- Nietzsche, Beyond GOOd and Evil taken care of the dead in the home before there was an
•
Women who want to be equal to men lack imagination.-
established occupation of undertaking.
-American Funeral Director
graffiti
•
•
[Fashion is] a kind of machine for maintaining meaning
"Identity politics" regards the discovery of identity as its
supreme goal. Feminists even assert that discovering an
without ever fixing it; it is forever a ()i.Jappointe() mean- identity is an act of resistance. The mistake is to view
ing - but it is nevertheless meaning. Without content, it identity as an end rather than a means. Identity is not
then becomes the spectacle human beings grant them- merely a precursor to action, it is also created through
selves: of their power to make the insignificant signifY. action.-Jenny Bourne, "Homelands of the Mind: Jewish
-Roland Barthes, The Fl1<Ihion SyJtem Feminism and Identity Politics"

226
I've come up with a new theory about sex. There is a "Language is not merely a more or less systematic inven-
scale, and at one end is absolutely total ecstasy and sheer tory of the various items of experience ... but actually
enlightenment. On the other end is abuse, pain, suffer- Jejine.J experience for us because of our unconscious pro-
ing, rape, power-tripping-everything negative about jection of its explicit expectations into the field of experi-
sex. I guess married life or boring, routine sex would be ence ... the 'real world' is to a large extent built up on
in the middle. I've traveled virtually the entire line, made the language habits of the group." - Edward A. Sapir,
a stop at every single point. -Annie Sprinkle interviewed "Selected Writing in Language, Culture and Personality."
by Linda Montano, TDR •
•
There was one point, for about a year III my sexual
Aware that the public questioned her own sexual identi-
ty, Madame Pelletier suggested that she was essentially a
evolution, where I went to a kinky sex club. I would be in woman like any other, extraordinary only in refusing to
the center of the room, surrounded by 12 guys on their be exploited. Her fictional self, Marie, looking back over
knees, jerking off, then I'd go get fist-fucked by an ampu- a celibate life, reflects that "certainly she wasn't without
tee without a fist, then have a dog eat crisco off my pussy, sexuality; she also felt these desires, but she had to re-
then I'd fist-fuck a guy up the ass, piss on someone -all press them in order to remainjree. She didn't regret it."
in one night. It was the most liberating, mind-boggling, -European Women on tbe Left.. ed. Jane Slaughter & Robert
fabulous, fantastic time in my life. But today, you couldn't Kern
get me to do that if you paid me! -Annie Sprinkle inter-
viewed by Linda Montano, TDR
•
Most of all beware, even III thought, of assuming the
•
To whip someone now doesn't appeal to me, because r
sterile attitude of the spectator, for life is not a spectacle,
a sea of griefs is not a proscenium, and a man who wails is
somehow feel that it hurtd them deep down, even though not a dancing bear.
I whipped people with love. I'd like to take somebody - Aime Cesaire, Return to My Native Lan;}
who wanted to be whipped and show them what more
pure, direct love is like. And Tantra is the image that I
•
All experts serve the state and the media and only in that
have for that-Tantra and loving myself.-Annie Sprin- way do they achieve their status. The most useful expert,
kle interviewed by Linda Montano, TDR of course, is the one who can lie. Whenever individuals
•
We now know that our civilization too is mortal.
lose the capacity to see things for themfelvu, the expert is
there to offer an absolute reassurance.
- Paul Valery - Guy Debord, ConunentJ on tbe Society oftbe Spectacle
•
There are many women who want to have children. Our
•
Never before has censorship been so perfect. Never be-
planet is overcrowded already, so if a woman doesn't feel fore has it been possible to lie to citizens so brazenly.
like it, it is infinitely preferable that she abstain. A lynx Many things may be unauthorized; everything is permit-
needs 400 kilometers of territory, otherwise it dies. Peo- ted. Talk of scandal is thus archaic. "Once there were
ple need space and they haven't got enough. scandals, but not any more."
- Nelly Kaplan - Guy Debord, ConunentJ on tbe Society of tbe Spectacle
•
People who are evil attack others instead of facing their
•
In a 17th century execution fourteen cats were shut in a
own failures. - M. Scott Peck, People of tbe Lie cage with a woman who was roasted over a slow fire
•
For Madame Pelletier [see interview with Kerr & Mal-
while the cats in misery and terror clawed her in their
own death agonies.
ley], feminine clothes were signs of dervitude, of being a dex - Carl Van Vechten, Tbe Tiger in tbe HOUde
and not an individual. Her masculine attire, her short
hair, were exterior signs of liberty in a world which was
•
To protect yourself from sorcery by cats there was one,
essentially male and in which women don't believe in classic remedy: maim it. Cut its tail, clip its ears, smash
themselves - for they were taught from childhood that one of its legs, tear or burn its fur, and you would break
only men have personalities that count. Her male attire its malevolent power. - Robert Darton, Tbe Great Cat MaJ-
was thus not only a sign of liberty, but also a passport into Jacre aniJ Otber EpiJoiJu in Frencb Cultural HiJtory
the male universe, which from her earliest childhood had
seemed the only meaningful one.
•
The power of cats was concentrated on the most intimate
-Charles Sowerwine, SiJterJ or CitLzefld? aspects of domestic life: sex. Le chat, la chatte, Ie minet
•
The artist's imagination wards off the despair of the
mean the same thing in French slang as "pussy" does in
English, and they have served as obscenities for centu-
world; creation affords man the possibility of inventing ries. -Ibid
his own future, of imagining his own world and celebrat-
ing a ritual which brings him close to the collective
•
The worst egoist is the person to whom the thought has
unconscious. - Michel Ciment, Jobn Boorman never occurred that he might be one.-Sigmund Freud

227
Don't ever be completely masculine because a superior Dig it, this is a planet of women ... the men are just
woman is superior to her masculine colleague. In you as a guests here. They're the mothers, the ones who bear the
woman there are some exceptional qualities, but they life of new generations. It's like they have the greatest
would cease to be so attractive and so remarkable if you creative energy going for them. Women today are not
got too close to that other part of the human species that satisfied ... they want men, but all they find are little
is epoi.Jm perJol1lfieo. - letter to Isabelle Eberhardt quoted in boys.-Charles Manson
Annette Kobak's The Life of1.JaheLLe Eherharut. •
•
Television has glamorized war for us, whether the movie-
Americans love and hate sex. Sex sells products, fuels
popular novels and Hollywood's star system. And yet,
drenched jungle palette of the Vietnam War news or the when this commodification becomes literaL, when sexual
sinister black-and-white film relayed to our living rooms pleasure is bought and sold, Americans are terrified. Sex
from the nose-cone cameras of Desert Storm's smart professionals bear the burden of this fear. Prostitutes
bombs, which almost incite the television viewer to be- have historically been publicly vilified, leaving them vul-
come a cruise missile.-J.G. Ballard nerable to attack, abuse, and harassment from all sides.
•
Life is a comedy for those who think and a tragedy for
Yet they never seem to run out of clients. The criminal-
ization of prostitution denies them safe working condi-
those who feel.-Horace Walpole tions, and targets them for abuse and violence by johns,
•
All forms of eroticism are basically the search for emotion-
cops and criminals.. -Excerpt from MANIFESTO by
GRAN FURY (NY sex/activist group) WITH P.O.N.Y. (Pros-
al"hoc/e. - Isha Schwaller de Lubicz, The Opening of the Way titutes of New York)
•
The imaginary is that which tends to become real.
•
[From a letter written to John Adanu, who Wad attending
- Andre Breton the Continental CongruJ, by hi.! wife Ahigail, 1776}: In
•
Mastery of the physical body gives health and strength;
the new Code of Laws [our Constitution] Remember the
Ladies, and be more generous and favourable to them
mastery of the emotions prevents one from being con- than your ancestors. Do not put such unlimited powers
trolled by others, and opens the inward ear; mastery of into the hands of the Husbands. Remember: all men wouLo
the mind, by which the arising thoughts can be either he tyrantJ (f they coulo. If particular care and attention is
formulated or abolished at will, makes possible intuitive not paid to the Ladies, we are determined to foment a
vision. - Isha Schwaller de Lubicz, The Opening of the Way ReheL/ion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws

• in which we have no voice, or representation .

It's not the poet's responsibility to give other people
illusions of earthly or heavenly hope, or to weaken peo-
•
Eroticism is the magic of vitality, expressed mainly
ple's minds... On the contrary, the poet is supposed to through the awakening of sexual power.
keep on saying sacrilegious words and permanent blas- - R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz
phemies. - Benjamin Peret, The Dwhonor ofPoetJ •
•
The time has come to valorize woman's ideas at the
When Tarzan first meets La - if one can call it a
meeting - she is the priestess assigned to make him into a
expense of those of man ... In particular, it is the artist's human sacrifice by piercing his heart. She seems friendly,
task to give the greatest priority to everything that comes even enchantinp-she rescues him from unfriendly goril-
from the feminine system of the world. las, dances around him, sings in a soft and musical voice.
-Andre Breton, Arcane 17 Then she places a rope around his neck and leads him to
•
Of course, I understand that this is just a dream ... But
a bloodstained altar transformed by the fanatical zeal of
religious ecstasy into a wild-eyed and bloodthirsty exe-
if this artificial mind can sustain itself and grow of its own cutioner, who, with dripping knife, would be the first to
accord, then for the first time human thought will live drink her victim's red, warm blood from the little golden
free of bones and flesh, giving this child of mind an cup that stood upon the altar.
earthly immortality denied to us. - [talking about Artifi- - Marianna Torgovnick, Gone Primitive (on Edgar Rice Bur-
cial Intelligence] computer designer Daniel Hillis, Daeua- roughs'Return of Tarzan)
iUd, Winter 1988 •
•
BreakooW/k' playa central role in human understanding. A
Anti and pro are two facets of the same thing... I force
myself into self-contradiction to avoid following my own
breakdown is not a negative situation to be avoided, but a taste ... For me there is something else in addition to
situation of non-obviousness, in which some aspect ... yeJ, no, and ino~fferent- that is, for instance, the absence of
is brought forth to visibility. A breakdown reveals the investigations of that type. I am against the word anti
nexus of relations necessary for us to accomplish our because it's a bit like atheist, as compared to believer. An
task. atheist is just as much of a religious man as the believer is.
- Wmograd, in Edwards and Gordon, forthcoming - Marcel Duchamp

228
A CBGB's 108
Abbott, Jack 8 Central Park Jogger 8
Acconci. Vito 48 Centl/rieJ 0/ Childhood. See Aries, Philip
ACT UP 18. 157 Chance, James 185
A.qainA Nature. See Huysmans. J.K. Charpentier. Marie Joseph 68
AIDS 12-14. 18, 31. 45. 49, 63, Child Pornography 203
127. 158. 192. 193 Childbirth 214
Aktionists, Viennese 189 Christianity 135. 136
Amacher, Ma~anne 60 Cixous. Helene 128, 131. 152
"American Dreams" (poem) 163, 165. 168 Comfort, Alex 213
Amish 93 Coming to Power. See Samol."
Anti-Art 186 Commissioner's Report on Pornography 131-132.
Antin. Eleanor 9 209
Aries, Philip 86 Comstock, Anthony 160
Artaud, Antonin 15, 68 Contingency, Irony, eJ Solwarity. See Rorty, Richard
Artificial Intelligence 153 COl/rage to Heal, The. See Bass, Ellen
Astrology 173 Crack War,': Lilerature, Addictwn, and Mania 135
Atwater, Lee 84 "Critique of Violence. The". See Benjamin. Walter
Cross-dressing 79-80
B Cubeiro, Emilio 32. 105, 108
Baby IJ Born, A 195 Curie, Madame 87
Bachhoven 74
Baker. Jim 135
D
Baldwin, James 88 Dalai Lama 92
Bashkirtseff, Maria 68 Dance 14. 17. 122
Bass. Ellen 166 DanceJ With WoIl'eJ (film) 91
Baudelaire. C. P. 15 de Beauvoir. Simone 68, 123
Baudrillard. Jean 88 de Nerval. Gerard 15
Benjamin, Walter 129, 130, 137 de Ridder, Willem 28
"Black Leather Beavers." 7 Deleuze, Gilles 153
Black LookJ: Race and Repruentatwn 91 Derrida. Jacques 74, 131-132
Black Panthers 120, 159 Dharma BWnJ. See Kerouac, Jack
"Black Sheep. The" (poem) 43. 47 Dijkstra, Bram 74
Blank, Joani 212, 213 Dildoes 216
Bluut Eye, The. See Morrison. Toni Di.JcipLine and Puni.Jh: The Birth of the Pri.Jon. See Foucault,
Briggs Initiative 200 Michel
"Bull Dyke of the Month" 218 Dornan. Bob 198
Burden, Chris 48 DuBois, W.E.B. 125
Burroughs. William S. 17. 133 Duchamp, Marcel 53, 55-56
Bush. George 142 DurabLe Fig Leaf, The. See Strage. Mark
Dworkin, Andrea 128. 201-202
c
Capra. Fritjof 87
E
Catholicism 50-52 Educatwll of GirI.J, The. See Pelletier, Madame

229
Everything You Eller Wanted To Know About Se.. 213 Kaufman, Gershen 86
Keen, Sam 80
F Kegel 214
Keller, Evelyn Fox 87, 130
Fallaci, Oriana 8
Kerouac, Jack 48
FaAer, PU,JJycat! KiLL! KilL! 7
King, ~artin Luther 90, 92, 121, 158
Fear of Women. See Lederer, Wolfgang
Fire Ne••t Time, The. See Baldwin, James King, Rodney 149
Kinsey Institute 213, 220
Fonda, Jane 198
Foucault, Michel 89, 139 Kipper Kids 48
Kokoschka, Oscar 10
Fuller, ~argaret 68
Kovac, Ron 198
G Kristeva, Julia 179

Geldof, Bob 13 L
Goldberg, Whoopi 91
Goldman, Emma 201 Lacan, Jacques 153
Laugh of the MeOu.Ja, The. See Cixous, Helene
Good Vibrations 211
Graham, ~artha 17 Lebel, Jean-Jacques 69
Gregory, Carol 84 Lederer, Wolfgang 131
Gulf War 44, 49, 77, 149-151, 192 Lee, Spike 91
Guns 22 Led GuiriLlire.J. See Wittig, ~onique
Gwenwald, ~organ 213 Levinas, Emmanuel 149
Lipton, Eunice 83
H Living Theater. See Theodore, Luke
Livingston, Jennie. See Parid 1.1 Burning
Hanh, Thich Nhat 83, 85, 90, 92 Loehmann, Anne. See Restell, ~adame
Haraway, Donna 87 "Looking for Robert Johnson" (short story) 175
HegeL G.W.F. 138 Lynch, David 140
Helms, Jesse 37
Himes, Chester 126 M
Hippies 133-134
~cCannell, Juliet 147
Hidtory of SexuaLity, The. See Foucault, Michel
~adonna 14, 42, 149, 150
Hitchcock, Alfred 86, 90
Male Se..uaLity. See Zilbergeld, Bernie
Hitler, Adolf 133, 136
MaLLeu..} MaLeficarum 154, 157
HoLy Anore..Liz 52
Man Who Mi.Jtook Hid Wife for a Hat, The. See Sacks,
HoLy FeaA d HoLy Fadt 52, 62
Howard Beach 81 Oliver
~aniots 11
Hsieh, Tehching 56-57, 60
~applethorpe, Robert 137
Hussein, Saddam 11
~edea 11
Huysmans, J.K. 153
"Mickey ~ouse Was A Scorpio"(poem)
I 165, 167-168
Migraine. See Sacks, Oliver
Ice-T 152 Minh-ha, Trinh T. 83, 147
Iceberg Slim 125 Minimalism 89
IJoll ofPerver.1ity. See Dijkstra, Bram Mo' Better BLuu (film). See Lee, Spike
In the BeLLy of the Be{].ft. See Abbott, Jack ~odersohn-Becker, Paula 68
Incest 107, Ill, 166-167, 170 ~orrison, Jim 48
Interview With Hi.Jtory. See Fallaci, Oriana ~orrison, Toni 81
~otorhead 13
J Mur()erer: the Womand Hope (play).
Jackson, Michael 163 See Kokoschka, Oscar
Joplin, Janis 121
Joy of Se••, The. See Comfort, Alex N
Joyce, James 133 Nake() Lunch. See Burroughs, William S.
Juno 152 Nancy, Jean-Luc 136
Nation, Carrie 201
K Naumann, Bruce 48
Kant, Immanuel 141, 151 NC-17 206

230
NEA (National Endowment for the Arts) Shame: The Power of Caring. See Kaufman, Cershen
39, 42, 137 Show Me 203
Nichols, Les 28, 35 Si..lter Ray 78
Nietzsche, Friedrich 151-152, 180, 185 Slavery 170
NOW (National Organization of Women) 162 Soul! of BLack Folk, The. See DuBois, W.E.B.
Soviet Union 159
o Spel160lllzd (film). See Hitchcock, Alfred
Off Our Back,1 (magazine) 207 Sprinkle, Annie 60, 62
Oliver Sacks 153 Sterilization 159
Oliveros, Pauline 56, 60 Strage, Mark 74
01/ Our Back" (magazine) 207, 213, 216-217 Street, The. See Petry, Ann
On The Road. See Kerouac, Jack Sturges, Jock 38
Operation Rescue 154, 157-158 Summer of Love 121
Sundahl, Debi 207
p Swie Se,.pert'.J w6tan Se.•world 207
Swaggart, Jimmy 135
ParI.., IJ Burning (film) 79, 84, 182
Pasolini, Pier 11, 17 T
PaJJionate L~fe, The. See Keen, Sam
Peck, M. Scott 86, 88 Tao ofPhy,llcd, The. See Capra, Fritjof
Pedophile 167 Tattoo 140, 183, 193
Pelletier, Madame 160-161 Terry, Randall 154, 156
Pentholb.le (magazine) 203 Thatcher, Margaret 106
Petry, Ann 125 Theodore, Luke 9
PhenomenoLogy. See Hegel, C.W.F.
PID 109
u
Pimp. See Iceberg Slim UlYdded. See Joyce, James
Planned Parenthood 46 Underground Railroad 87
PMS 110, 131
PoLicing De,lire. See Watney, Simon v
POJt Porn Moderni.Jt Malu!edto. See Vera, Veronica Vaginal orgasm 76-77
Power/KnowLedge. See Foucault, Michel van Leyster, Judith 68
PowerJ ofHorror. See Kristeva, Julia Vanilla Ice 208
Privilege (film). See Rainer, Yvonne
Vassi, Marco 31
Puns 137 Vera, Veronica 23
Virginity 23, 26
R
Raft!J Not the Shore, The. See Hanh, Thich Nhat w
Rainer, Yvonne 85 War on Drugs 88, 135
Rape 7, 19-20, 22, 171 Watney, Simon 90
Reagan, Nancy & Ronald 142 WaveJ, The. See Woolf, Virginia
Red TiJe (magazine) 197-198 Weather Underground 121
RefLectiolld on Genoer and Science. See Keller, Evelyn Fox WHAM 45
Regime of the Brother. See MacCannell, Juliet "Wilding"(poem) 168, 169
Reich, Wilhelm 68 Williams, Patricia 84
Restell, Madame 160 Wittig, Monique 92
Rickles, Laurence 146 Woolf, Virginia 68
Road Ledd Tral'eLeo, The. See Peck. M. Scott "Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical
Rorty, Richard 90 Reproduction." See Benjamin, Walter
RU-486 45, 158
y
s
Yearning: Race, Gender and Cultilral Politicd 79, 89
Sacks, Oliver 140
Salome, Lou 151
SamolJ 213, 216
z
Second Se;r, The. See de Beauvoir, Simone Zen 55-56
Seduction. See Baudrillard, Jean Zilbergeld, Bernie 213

231
• Durango Root Datuca glomerata Gald.J Symptoms: Painful irritation of the lips and the mucous membranes
Toxic Part: Entire plant in flower or fruit. of the mouth and throat. [n extreme cases swelling of the throat is
Symptoms: Depression, diarrhea, increased respiration rate, and sufficient to cause choking and inability to swallow. Usually after
death. four days the swelling begins to lessen, eventually disappearing
after twelve days. The pain may continue for about eight days. In
• Gloriosa Lily GlorioJa rotbJcbildWIU1 Sprinkle addition, contact dermatitis commonly OCelll"S.

Toxic Part: The whole plant is poisonous, particularly the tubers.

• Morning Glory ConvulvulUJ Jepiunt RoneLl
Poisonings have occurred when the tubers were mistaken for sweet
potatoes. Toxic Part: Seeds.
Symptoms: Burning pain in the mouth and throat, intense thirst, and Symptoms: Used by thrill seekers because of its LSD-like effect, 50
difficulty swallowing occurs immediately, followed by nausea and to 200 powdered seeds from this climbing vine can produce mental
emesis. Abdominal pain and severe diarrhea develop after a two or effects which have led to suicides. Other side reactions have been
more hour delay. Extensive fluid and electrolyte loss may lead to nausea, uterine stimulation, visual distortion, restlessness, relax-
hypovolemic shock. Renal involvement is evidenced by hematuria ation, heightened awareness, increased rapport with other persons,
and oliguria. Can be fatal. and euphoria. Excessive use can result in complete dissociation
from reality.
• Daffodil NarcuJuJ pJeudOlU1rCUJUJ Finley
Toxic Part: Bulbs (often mistaken for onions).
• Baneberry Actaea rubra Kerr eJ Malley
Symptoms: Following ingestion oflarge amounts, symptoms include Toxic Part: Only the berries and roots are toxic.
nausea, gastroenteritis, vomiting, persistent emesis, diarrhea, and Symptoms: Upon ingestion there is intense pain and inflammation of
convulsive trembling which can lead to fatality. the mouth, tongue, and throat, often with blistering and ulceration.
Salivation is profuse. Bloody emesis and diarrhea occur in associ-
• Pawpaw AJimi.1U1 triloha Montano ation with severe abdominal cramping. About 30 minutes after
ingestion, central nervous system involvement is manifested by
Toxic Part: Entire plant.
dizziness, confusion, syncope. and, in severe cases, convulsions.
Symptoms: Causes contact dermatitis.

Schneemann • Chaparral Deathcamas ZigadenUJ fremontii Sapphire

• 0 leander Nerium oleander
Toxic Part: Entire plant, particularly the bulbs.
Toxic Part: Entire plant, green or dried. Smoke from burning wood
Symptoms: In humans, 'burning in the mouth, thirst, dizziness and
can also be toxic.
headache, persistent vomiting, slow heart action, low blood pres-
Symptoms: Sometimes, when a branch has been cut from an oleander
sure, and convulsions. Drowsiness and staggering progress to a
bush to skewer meat at outdoor barbecues, the poison is transferred
coma with slow and irregular respiration. These symptoms are
to the meat. causing nausea, depression, lowered and irregular
generally the same in livestock, although some animals may die
pulse, bloody diarrhea, paralysis, and possibly, death.
. within a few hours.
• Carolina Jessamine Ge!Jemium Jempervirend hooluJ • Iris (Blue Flag) Iru vmicolor Acker
Toxic Part: Entire Plant, especially nectar.
Toxic Part: Underground rhizome, leaves, and other fleshy portions.
Symptoms: Induces muscular weakness, dizziness, falling of the jaw,
Symptoms: Causes severe, but not usually serious, gastroentic pain.
visual disturbances, dryness of the mouth, slowed pulse, great
nausea, and pronounced diarrhea; also contact dermatitis.
anxiety. and convulsions. Its strychnine-like action paralyzes mo-
tor nerve endings, resulting in respiratory arrest and death. Hon-
• Balsam Apple Guttiferae CUuW rOJea Export
eybees are poisoned by the plant causing their honey to become
toxic. Toxic Part: The golden viscous sap and the fruit are toxic.
Symptoms: Profuse diarrhea occurs after indigestion.
• Carolina Rhododendron RhOdodendron carounwnum
• Naked Lady Amarylli.J hellaiJonlU1 Bright
Hughe.!
Toxic Part: Bulb.
Toxic Part: The leaves are toxic as is honey made from flower nectar. Symptoms: Ingesting fairly large amounts may induce nausea, persis-
Symptoms: Rhododendrons have caused serious intoxications in tent vomiting, and minimal diarrhea. This plant also causes both
children who chewed on the leaves. Poisoning also may result from allergic and irritant dermatitis, particularly in florists who are
eating honey made from rhododendron nectar. There is a transitory repeatedly exposed to these plants.
burning in the mouth on ingestion. Several hours later, salivation,
emesis, and diarrhea occur. and there is a prickling sensation in the • Lily-of-the-Valley Convallarw majalu Quote.!
skin. The patient may complain of headache, muscular weakness,
Toxic Part: Any part of the plant may be toxic, including the water in
and dimness of vision. Bradycardia is followed by severe hypoten-
which the cut flowers have been kept, but this species seems to be
sion. Coma and convulsions are terminal events.
less of a hazard because of its foul taste.
Symptoms: In humans, irritation to the mucous membranes of the
• Poison Hemlock Conium maculatum Lunch mouth followed by vomiting. dizziness, and abdominal pain caused
Toxic Part: Entire plant, especially root, seeds, and fruit. by the saponins. The digitalis-like glycosides, which have a variable
Symptoms: The primary action is on the central nervous system and latent period. have toxic effects on the heart.
is similar to nicotine poisoning. Onset of symptoms is usually rapid
with irritation of the mucous membranes of the mouth and throat, • Deadly Nightshade Atropa helladonlU1 Index
increased salivation, nausea and vomiting, abdominal pain or
Toxic Part: Entire plant; the shiny black berries are a potential hazard
diarrhea, thirst, nervousness, headache, dilation of the pupils,
particularly to children.
sweating, and dizziness. Convulsions occur in severe cases and may
Symptoms: On ingestion, dry mouth and difficulty in swallowing and
be followed by corna or death, the result of respiratory failure.
speaking, flushed dry skin, rapid heartbeat. dilated pupils and
blurred vision, and neurological disturbances, including excite-
• Calla Lily ZantedeJcbw aetbiopica Coleman ment, giddiness, delerium, headache, confusion, and hallucina-
Toxic Part: Juice of Jeaves and stems. tions. Repeated ingestion can lead to dependency and glaucoma.

252
 ,

New Titles! c..

DRIVING ME WILD
Nitro-powered Outlaw Culture!
By Leah M. Kerr
c:
z
"My first time was up against a corrugated fence in Bakersfield... fifty yards away from two
top-fuelers running over-rich with nitro, making me high and bringing tears to my eyes.
Every push of the throttle rocked my world.... 1 thought, Why didn't anybody tell me about
this before? It was like laying on the monitors at a Sonic Youth show... and it's like a drug:
once hooked, you always crave the rush again, to find yourself slammed against another
fence, nose wide open, ear drums pounding, inhaling nitro .... " -Leah Kerr

"DRIVING ME WILD is an
objective survey of America's
love/hate preoccupations with the
souped up internal combustion
engine and the modified vehicle it
goes in. Leah Kerr fully explores
the resurgence of fascination with
to.

--
e
today's auto fetish."
-ROBERT WILLIAMS, artist

"Leah Kerr carries the reader into

a parallel universe where the
atmosphere nitromethane!-
sustains edgy and sublime sorts of art and
ingenuity. There is great reading on every page.
and real passion. too, as when Leah decries the
o
»
"greed, commercialism and favoritism" that
"threaten to strangle the oul of car culture.'"
-BOB POST, author of HIGH PERFORMANCE:
THE CULTURE AND TECHNOLOGY OF DRAG
RACING, and curator emeritus. Smithsonian
Institution

"The best thing about DRIVING ME WILD is not

only is it a great book about Drag Racing, it also
includes everything that goes along with it: the
music. the movies, the whole experience. No
-I
»
one else puts you right in the driver's seat like
Leah does!"
-MIKE LAVELLA. editorlpublisher Gearhead
Maga:ille

r-
Think flames! Think passion! Think pleasure
that quakes your insides as you inhale addictive
blasts of nitro, mainlining the hazardous elixir of
speed and power! This is not your grandad's
c1as ic car book. Hot rods are America's god-given inheritance to freely partake in risky behavior. Meet wrench-twirling, retro-outfitted
tattooed babes who rev your pulse! Ogle neuron-twisting surrealistic lowbrow art! Discover the daredevil geniuses who invented drag racing!
Here's your introduction to visionary women and minorities and backyard mechanics who carry on the tradition of individuality and, Yes-

e
They Will Race For Food'

Also offered for your bench-racing pleasure: Piston-slapping break neck punk rock: Race-ready fanzines-Gearhead, Speed Kills.
Wagons of Steel; Misunderstood lowbrow art-Robert Williams, Coop. Von Franco; Long Lost 10 Movies: Glistening Custom Cars;
Smoking, Flaming, Tire-Squealing Racing Action Photos...

Ii
CARS/TV & FILM/MUSIC
Paperback, 8.5 x 11 inches, 184 pages, with a lot of pictures

C)
www.JunoBooks.com ISBN 0·9651042·9·X $20.99
New Titles!
BREAD & WINE
An Erotic Tale of New York
Written by Samuel R. Delany
Drawn by Mia Wolff
Introduced by Alan Moore

BREAD & WINE is a beautifully drawn graphic novel about the beginning of a moving and lasting gay
relationship, with all the complexities. fumblings, and excitement of two people coming together after a
chance encounter. Award-winning African American author Samuel Delany and Dennis, a white homeless
New Yorker selling books from a blanket, discover sexual joy and explode stereotypes while exploring the
possibilities for compassion and acceptance-all the more touching because it's true.

"Samuel
Delany is one
of the finest
I i v i n g
American
writers.... [His]
brilliance
shines.
It's filthy and
earthy and
beautiful, like
an orchid in a
gutter:'
- N e
Gaiman
author of
SANDMA and
NEVERWHERE

"Samuel Delany breaks all the taboos in

BREAD & WlJ'lE ....How Jean Genet
would have loved it!"
-Edmund White author of THE
FAREWELL SYMPHONY

Samuel R. Delany is a four-time

Nebula Award winner, two-time Hugo
award winner, and winner of the
William Whitehead Memorial Award
for Lifetime Contribution to Gay and
Lesbian Literature. He is the author of
DHALGREN (Bantam Books, 1975),
ATLANTIS: THREE TALES (Wesleyan
University Press, 1995), THE MAD
MA (Rhinoceros Books, 1996), and
TiMEs SQUARE RED. TIMES SQUARE BLUE
(New York University Press, 1999)
Delany is a professor of comparative literature at the University of Mas achusetts, Amherst. and lives in New York City.

Mia Wolff, author of the children's book, CATCHER (Fanar, Straus & Giroux, 1994), is a former trapeze artist and
martial arts instructor, and is now a painter living in upstate New York.

Alan Moore is one of the best known and respected writers in comix today. and is the author of THE WATCHMAN
(Warner Books. 1987). and FROM HELL (11 volumes, Kitchen Sink Press, 1992-1998).

AUTOBIOGRAPHY/EROTICA/GAY LETTERS
www.JunoBooks.com Paperback, 8 x 10 inches, 80 pages, more than 50 pages of line art
ISBN 1·890451·02·9 $14.99
New Titles!
c..
DEVIANT DESIRES
Incredibly Strange Sex
By Katharine Gates
c:
DEVIANT DESIRES is a lavishly illustrated guide to the most fascinating and obscure outposts of the erotic frontier.
Self-described pervert Katharine Gates takes us on an expedition into the latest sexual communities bursting forth at the
beginning of the new millennium. Gone are the pretentious black-clad S/M posers and humorless fetish fashion victims-
you'll meet the refreshingly funny and irreverent heroes and heroines of a do-it-yourself porn revolution.

Spurred on by the internet explosion,

z
e
these deviants defy all expectations as
they actively participate in creating
their own erotic entertainment, forging
new art, original literature and fluid
sexual identities. Come gIab a first
peek as they radically subvert mass
culture for their own nefarious sexual
purposes. Nothing is sacred and
anything can be sexualized. from
DisneyTM characters and B-Movie
monsters to baked beans, children's
birthday balloons and Thanksgiving
dinner. You'11 never watch TV the
same way again!

Katharine Gates has worked

extensively with Annie Sprinkle and
n
other sexual pioneers. Her collaborative
efforts in the domain of the perverse include Joe
Coleman's ORIGINAL SIN, and Maurice
Vellekoop's ABC BOOK: A HOMOEROTIC
PRIMER. She is the founder of Gates of Heck, an
»
----I
alternative culture press. Gates studied
anthopology at Yale University and lives in ew
York City.

"~atharine Gates is the

s~artest I

1his pook
sexiest I pestest I
freshest I coo(est I funniest
sex researcher in the universe.
is priWant,
thoroughty entertaining, and
»
r-
super-outrageous. FinaUy
so~eone has done so~ething
sexuaUy-oriented that is tru(y
origina(. I dare you to read it
and not get turned on!"
-A'l'lie Spri'lk(e, Queen of Xi'lk,

e
artist, author, a'lrJ sex pio'leer

"Fun pook! I>eep down, everyone wants to pe I (ook I pehave (ike so~e other
creature. I>EVlANT I>ESlRES gives us a startH'lg new (ook at a few of these variations."
-Fakir Musafar, Father of the MorJer'l Pri~itive ~ove~e'lt

C)
EROTICA/SELF HELP/GENDER STUDIES
www.JunoBooks.com Paperback, 8.5 x 11 inches, 248 pages, lots of pictures
ISBN 1-890451-03-7 $24.99
New Reprints!
FREAKS
We Who Are Not As Others
by Daniel P. Mannix
Originally printed in a small edition and withdrawn by the publisher Pocket Books after one month. FREAKs-out
of print for nearly 20 years-was brought back to eye-popping life, with many new photos, by the renowned
marginal culture press RE/Search, which became a dominant 80s publishing force. Juno Books, morphed from the
now-defunct RE/Search, is bringing FREAKS back into print.

In FREAKS meet the strangest people who ever lived, and read about:
-the notorious love affairs of midgets;
-the strange sex lives of Siamese twins;
-the dwarf clown's wife whose feet grew directly from her body;
-the mule-faced woman whose son became her manager;
-the unusual amours of Jolly Daisy, the fat woman;
-the famous pinhead who inspired Verdi's Rigo/etto;
-the tragedy of Betty Lou William and her parasitic twin;
-the 34-inch-tall midget happily married to his 264lbs. wife;
-the human torso who could sew, crochet, and type; ...
DANIEL
-the other bizarre accounts of normal humans turned into P.
freaks-either voluntarily or by evil design! MANNIX

Daniel P. Mannix. now enjoying a cult revival, is the author of such

enduring noir classics as MEMOIRS OF A SWORD SWALLOWER; THOSE
ABOUT TO DlE: THE HELL-FIRE CLUB: THE HISTORY OF TORTURE; and
many others. A former sword-swallower, fue-eater, fakir, and world
traveller, Mannix still lives on the family farm with his falcon.
miniature horses, and reptile collection.

CULTURAL STUDIES/MEDICAL CASE HISTORIES

www.JunoBooks.com Paperback, 8.5 x 11 inches, 124 pages with illustrations
ISBN 0·9651042·5-7 $15.99
New Reprints! c..
THE REISEARCH GUIDE TO BODILY FLUIDS
by Paul Spinrad
c:
z
Now in its third printing, this provocative guide sparks a radical rethinking of our relationship with our
bodies and nature, humorously (and seriously) spanning the gamut of everything you ever wanted to know about
bodily functions and excreta. Each bodily function is discussed from a variety of viewpoints: scientific,
anthropological, historical, mythological, sociological, and artistic.

Topics include constipation (such as its relationship to cornflakes and graham crackers!); the history and evolution
of toilet paper; farting (spotlighting the famous Joseph Pujol, a turn-of-the-century Fartiste who was so well known
internationally for his fart-singing and comedy routines that a street was named after him in Paris); urine (including
little known facts about urinalysis); earwax, smegma, and many other engrossing topics!

You think: you know shit? How about: Scatological Lives of the Greats; Thomas Crapper, Closet
Genius; Excrement in Psychoanalysis; Holy & Unholy Shit; Filth Medicine; Excretal Customs Worldwide; Bodily
Functions in Literature & Cinema; Historical Applications of Excrement; Excrement in Food and Drink; Sanitation
o
and Excrement Through Western History.

Spend a little time

getting to know
yourself! Read all about
Feces, Flatus, Vomit, Urine,
Mucus, Menstruation, Saliva,
o
Sweat, and more!

"A stunning new »

release ... THE
RE/SEARCH GUIDE
TO BODILY FLUIDS
-I
is a must buy ... "
-Bikini
»
r-
"This is an important work that
shouldn't be ignored, packed with
fascinating tacts on excreta.'-
-Loaded

o
www.JunoBooks.com
HUMOR/HEALTH/ARCANA
Paperback. 8.5 x 11 inches. 176 pages
ISBN 1-890451-04-5 $15.99
C)
Classics!
~--­ 1J:':~:;'i5,: l'E
DANGEROUS
DRAWINGS INDUSTRY.)
--------
SEX, STUPIDITY
AND GREED
Interviews with Comix
and Graphix Artists STUPIDIT Inside the American Movie
Industry
by A. Juno

"A must for any modem-comix

fan:' -Details

"A bold collection of interviews

~G [[ by Ian Grey

..... Ian Gre)'s SEX. STUPIDITY AND

GREED crankily explains what:S wrong
with American llickdom:'
-Entertainment Weekly
with 14 of the world's most outstanding pop artists."' -Vibe
"Essential reading for anyone who wonders about the chilling
"This often entertaining medium is revealed to contain many downward-spiral of big budget films in the last decade."' -Spill
complex and provocative ideas. and the serious trearment it gets
here makes this a worthwhile purchase."' -Ubrary }ollmal "Grey's interviews are hard-won ... porn-stars. gore film directors,
Grey's own shrink... .It's hard to disagree with him that Hollywood
"Based on the list of cartoonists and artists interviewed in the book, movie bite like dogs:' -The Village Voice
you know it's bound to be a great book. But as you pour through
the di cussions, you realize that it's far more than that:' "Several anecdotes about popular figure". such as Sylve ter Stallone,
-Amazon.com "Pick of the Month..... unpaid! are priceless. and an interview with the often maligned actress Sean
Young reveals her to be intelligent and savvy:' -Time OUI
"DANGEROUS DRAWINGS is required reading for anyone interested in
comix. The impressive collection of interviews and art is a "SEX, STLPIDJTY AND GREED gelS straight to thc ronen core. With
reliable and informative look at tbis increasingly popular field. It intelligence and biting humor. Ian Grey peels under the glamorous
provides both an interesting look at well known artists a.nd an veneer and hows us the guts of the American movie industry."
exciting introduction into the field's rising stars." -Spill -Revolt III Style

COMICS/ART/BIOGRAPHY FILM/POP CULTURE

Paperback, 8.5 x 11 inches, 224 pages with killer pics Paperback, 6 x 9 inches, 240 pages
ISBN 0-9651042·8·1 $24.95 ISBN 0-9651042-7-3 $15.95

"l ANGRY WOMEN INCREDffiLY

IN ROCK STRANGE MUSIC
by A. Juno by A. Juno & V. Vale

"[Today], indie chicks proliferate, ''The bible of lounge music is

a1llOusled and tight-trousered and lNCREDIBLY STRANGE MusJC."
signed to major labels. ANGRY -Newsweek
WOMEN IN ROCK gives us orne
portraits of women whose "Fans of ambient music. acid jazz.
'independence' is their substance ethno-techno, even industrial rock,
and not just their style:' -Seattle Weekly will find the leap back to these genres an easy one to make."
-Rollillg SlOne
"This book-stuffed with ideas. history. wise (and wise-ass)
remarks, and mo t importantly, hope for the future-will be INCREDIBLY STRANGE MUSIC is a comprehensive guide to little known
thumbed through often." -PlillcflIre yet amazing vinyl recordings-mostly from the 50s. 60s. and 70s-
like Muhammad Ali Fights Tooth Decay, Jayne Mansfield reading
"Creativity, sexuality, politics, fame, misogyny, strapping on Shakespeare, TchaikovsJ..·y and Me. Sebastion Cabot (ye , Mr. French
rubber phalluses, all this is clearly dissected in question-and- of Family Affair) "singing" songs by Bob Dylan, and Ion more!
answer format ." -Q
Impress your friends' Drive your roommates out! with· Brazilian
Includes interviews with: Chrissie Hynde (The Pretenders) Joan Psychodelic • Outer Space • Exotica-Ploitation • Singing Truck
Jett. Kathleen Hanna (Bikini Kill). 7 Year Bitch. Jarboe (Swans). Drivers • Yodeling • Abstract Female Vocals • Religious
Tribe 8 (the a1J-dyke punk band). Kendra Smith, Naomi Yang Ventriloquism' Sitar Rock· Theremin • Mallet Mischief· Phantom
(Galaxie 5(0). and much. much more! Surfers' Moog • Music for Bachelors' HOI Boppin' Girl • Eartha
Kill' "Where Did You Come From?" by Art Linketter • "Satan ls
MUSIC/WOMEN'S STUDIES/CULTURAL STUDIES Real" by the Louvin Brother ,. .S. Senator Robert Byrd. Mountain
Papetback, 7 x 9 inches, 224 pages, lots of photos Fiddler" • elc.'
ISBN 0-9651042-0-6

www.JunoBooks.com
$19.95
MUSIC/LOUNGE CULTURE
Paperback, 7 x 9 inches, 176 pages, lots of photos
ISBN 0-94<>642-21-2 $17_99 B
II
 c..
avorites!
I
I
CONCRETE JUNGLE BODIES OF
c:
z
A Pop Media Investigation of SUBVERSION
Death and Survival in Urban A Secret History of
I Ecosystems
Edited by Mark Dion & Alexis Rockman
Women and Tattoo

I "CO CRETE JUNGLE stands as one of the

finest works in urban anthropology to
by Margot Mifflin

"In this provocative work full of

I
o
appear in recent years. A plentitude of intriguing female characters from
provocative essays, bizarre photographS, tattoo history, Margot Mifflin
marginal quoles, and weird diagrams are 10 makes a persuasive case for the tattooed woman as an emblem of

I be found in this exploration of 'the intersection of urban living and Nature:"

-Fril/geware Review
female selt~expression:' -Susan Faludi. Pulitzer Prize-winning
author of BACKLASH

~
.. This wry and often grotesque look at the food chain shows just how active "An indelible account of an indelible piece of cultural history."
nature is despite our unflagging attempts to pave it over." -Ville Reader -Barbara Kruger. artist

"CONCRETE Ju GLE looks oddly like a high school science text book, "BODlES OF SUBVERSION is a comprehensive and clear-eyed account
but. .. the content is oozily compelling:' -Ariforwn of tattooing and women in Western society over the past century.
Margot Mifflin... furthers understanding of this complex art as it

o
"The next time you throw a dinner party. bring this provocative. compelling. exists among women. It is essential reading for anyone interested
and amusing volume to ule table." -Time Ow in the subject." -Don E. Hardy. renowned tattooi t and historian

I ECOLOGY/CULTURAL STUDIES/ART
Paperback 7 x 9 inches, 224 pages, over 260 line drawings
" ... An outstanding read. and long-overdue addition to the growing
body of literature on tattooing ... ,. -International Tattooing
I and halftone photographs
ISBN 0·9651042·2-2 $24.95 CULTURAL STUDIES/WOMEN'S STUDIES/BODY ART

I Paperback, 8.5 x 11 inches, 192 pages, over 200

halftone photographs

»
ISBN 1-890451-00-2 $23.95

I
L
J HORROR
Dangerous~' Drawings
contains these boss
comix artists'
HOSPITAL
UNPLUGGED
A Graphic Novel
by Dennis Cooper &
Keith Mayerson
-I
-Art Spiegelman
-Dan Clowes
-Julie Doucet
"Youthful angst is rarely
portrayed as this terrifying:'
-Library Journal

"This book will definitely become a classic:' -International

Drummer
»
r-
-Chris Ware ''Trippy and brilliant." -Attitude
-G.B. Jones
"Bound to reign in cult stardom status, HORROR HOSPITAL
-Diane Noomin UNPLUGGED is the ultimate generation whatever's coming of age
tale of Trevor Machine. the 90 answer to Holden Caulfield....
-Emiko Shimoda Filled with stimulating art and cynically amusing text. HORROR
HOSPITAL UNPLUGGED is a rare treat offering its readers intelligent
-Chester Brown

o
entertainment on every page:' -Cover
-Ted Roll
"Cooper's idiosyncratic morality meets cartoonist Keith
-Eli Langer Mayerson's manga-like style in this ruthless and totally rude book."
--Gay Times
-Aline Kominsky-Crumb
GRAPHIC NOVELS/MUSIC/GAY LETTERS
-Phoebe Glockner Paperback, 8.5 x 1~ inches, 256 illustrated pages
ISBN 0-9651042-1-4 $24.95

~II'I'I:
...
.--Matt
K.e.it.h_M.a.y.er.s.o.n
Reid •
www.JunoBooks.com
C)
 The Juno Books Individual Order Form for Caring Persons Not Living by a Great Bookstore!

BILLING INFORMATION

Your name Today's date:

I Your address

Tel Fax: E-mail:

Want to get special a-mail notices on private sales offers?

City State Zip

PAYMENT INFORMATION

Your credit card number: Exp date:

I Signature

D Check enclosed
------- - - - ---
-- ----,-------

--- --- --- --- --- ---------

I Name
SHIPPING INFORMATION

Address
D CHECK IF SAME

--- ------

I -- ---- - - - - - - -
City

Tel
------- ------
State

Fax
Zip
--- --- ---------

I
~
QUANTITY
r - ----.----
TITLE AMOUNT
HELP US THROW EVER MORE ELABORATE BOOK LAUNCH PARTIES
AND PROVOCATIVE, UNUSUAL PR CAMPAIGNS! ANSWER OUR
QUESTIONNAIRE AND RECEIVE A 20% DISCOUNT!

1) How did you first hear about us?

2) What do you love most about our books?

3) Which of OUf books are your favorites?

f---........---- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ~ - - - - - - - -

4) What's your sex? Your age?

~) Whal do you do?

6) How much do you make?

L
SPECIAL SHIPPING INSTRUCTIONS:
7) What kind of liquor do you dnnk?

~ r SUBTOTAl

8) What catalogs do you bUy from an a regular basis?

I add 8.25% tax jf you live in NY

DOMESTIC: SHIPPING & HANDUNG ($4.50
1ST BOOK, $1.50 EACH ADDITIONAL)
FOREIGN: $10.00 SURFACE, $25.00 AlA MAIL
1ST BOOK; $5.00 SURFACE, $10.00 AIR
I 9) Whal web sites do you buy from?

I
FOR EACH ADDITIONAL
I

Don'! worry! All this fnlo will be kepi confidential, and be used for
statistical purposes only! •
Please note that books will be sent when avarlable.

I
TOTA~L _ _

please now do one of these things:

1) Mail a copy of this form to: Juno Books Sales Desk, 180 Varick Street, Suite 1302, New York, NY 10014·4606
2) Fax a copy to: 2123665247

I 3)
4)
e-mail acopyto:[email protected]
Cali us toli·free at: 1-877-pH-is-joy