Discussion with Damiro & Abi

So as to the background/history of the SDA:

[NOTE: I took out what I had written about this and copied it below; here I will copy what
Damiro wrote and I will make a few comments by way of “tracking changes”…so they are
easy to see]
RP> I am not really intending to debate this history (it stands for itself); but I would be interested
in hearing from you on what the SDA says about its beginning.

DB< No it is fine, you are right; this isn’t about establishing the true origins of our churches or
faiths. My point was simply that Satan’s efforts to disrupt and confuse truth is obvious in every
aspect of life in this world, and that this would also be the case in finding the truth about my faith
and its origins. In the same way that I couldn’t expect to find the complete truth (or origin) of
your faith (or Buddhism, Islam, or any other) by searching anywhere other than within your
organization; you cannot expect that what you’ve been taught about the SDA, outside of
reaching out to or asking the organization directly, will be completely true. Of course, it must be
compared to what is known about the organization outside of its membership, but to understand
anything, one must start from within.

AH>> I understand what you are saying but the way to examine any belief would be to hold up
that belief (the official statement or claim) against what the Bible teaches. Sometimes that belief
is misrepresented even by those who claim to know it. And it doesn’t mean it is intentional.

DB< Yes, that is what we are doing now. Upholding what we believe to what the
bible says. Nothing better than getting to know our bibles for ourselves.
Before William Miller, there were many people worshiping on the 7th day. These people did not agree
with his idea of Jesus' Second Coming being in 1844.
I would also like some examples of this serious departure of truth if I may.

AH>> Ellen White was one who did believe in the second coming She also believed in the “shut door”
teaching, which she said she got from her vision of the “midnight cry.” In 1883, she explained that
“shut-door” teaching differently from her explanation in 1844

https://whiteestate.org/legacy/issues-shutdoor-html/

DB< Did you read the whole article you sent me?

Firstly, she believed in a lot of things, including Sunday worship, the closed door teaching and
that Jesus would come 1844. That was all before she received divine clarity on many of those
topics through visions and studying the bible.

RP> that is what I did in the “Basic Doctrines of the SDA”

DB< I suppose that, having shown you that some of your ideas of the basic doctrines of the SDA
are incorrect, you might have some more Bible-based examples of our serious departure from
biblical truth. I will respond below to those that you provided citations and verses to.
If I might correct you, we do not believe ourselves to be the only 'true' church, but rather the 'remnant'
church in Revelations 12.

RP> Fair enough; by “true church” I meant as over-against the “universal Church” but I see you
wrote about this below, so will comment there.

DB< Please emphasis on the ‘universal Church’ you attest to be a part of. Does it include all
Sunday-worshiping churches or is there a specific criteria? How do you differentiate between a
true church and an untrue church?

Meaning that  we don't believe that other churches, or bodies of believers, do not worship in spirit and
in truth; rather, that this remnant of believers are signified by 1. Obeying all God's commandments, 2.
Tasked with spreading the 3 angels message, 3. Have the Spirit of Prophecy.

AH>>So are these 3 the criteria of the True Church? As for prophecy, which other prophets (not
counting the ones in the Bible) do you hold to? I mean, Ellen White was in the later 1800’s. Was there
any before her or after her, whose works/visions/prophecies are quoted and held to by the SDA?

RP>So does this mean you accept the prophecies of Ellen White?

DB< Yes we do indeed accept the prophecies of Ellen White to be true, as well as her work to
reach all the world with the truth of Jesus and the Bible. Three examples of some of her
predictions are listed below; I will keep them short because there are many predictions that have
already come true. Also, I will keep the examples apart from those she prophesied for the church,
only including prophecies pertaining to the world.

Tobacco, Coffee, Sugar, and GMO will kill millions and lead to many diseases – In 1863, it was
revealed to Ellen White that Tobacco was a “slow, deceitful, and most malignant poison.” This
was a time when Tobacco was seen as healthy and closely associated with success, fashion, and
wealth. It wasn’t until the late 1940s that an undeniable link between tobacco and cancer was
demonstrated. She had a series of visions where many things were revealed to her, we now call
them the ‘Health Message’ (an actual fundamental belief). In these specific visions, predictions
include health prophecies regarding coffee, genetically modified organisms(GMO) in animal and
later vegetable products worldwide, and much more. It is a fundamental belief because what we
put into our bodies is a physical matter, but even more so, a spiritual matter as our bodies are not
our own, but rather the temple of God. The Bible speaks very clearly on that. Ellen White
ensured that Adventists preached and practiced this. She taught that Satan makes a point of
polluting our bodies and minds as much as he can, in any way that he can. Because of this
knowledge, what the SDA teaches biblically on health, no other church teaches.

AH>>By this argument, the vegans, who neither smoke nor drink but are slavishly health
conscientious are the most respective receptacles of God speaking to them? I am convinced we
are to stay away from that which would harm us but that list included just about everything in
this world. And even any were to stay away for all that would harm the body, it is still going to
take an act of God’s grace, an act of His gracious condescension to speak to me. Because having
stayed always from tobacco, coffee, sugar, GMO, I am still a wretched sinner who can’t know
the mind of God except His Holy Spirit helps me to see and understand what He has revealed. I
may excel in one part of the law, surpassing the Pharisees but I need the righteousness of Christ
in order to be saved. Romans 14:17, for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but
righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

AH>> Have you purposed to exclude alcohol and how many die from alcoholism? Or too much
oil or over-eating in general? Obviously, when Christ made the best wine, He knew it was
alcoholic. He, being very God, hates drunkenness and yet He made wine. Paul, knew God’s
commands against drunkenness and yet advices Timothy to stop drinking only water but take a
little wine for his stomach sake because of his infirmity. That very thing that can result in great
evil and destruction if used in moderation (take a little not bottles) and with thankfulness may be
used for good.

I don’t know if you are familiar with her vision of not eating meat. I have a hard time see that in
the light of Scriptures. The dietary laws of the OT never forbad the eating of meat. It did of
certain kinds. Eating of vegetables alone does not make one holier. As a matter of fact, the
Bible says that one who thinks that eating vegetables alone will make him holier is the weaker
brother. If a brother or sister chooses to eat only vegetables that view should be respected by not
commanded. Romans 14:14, “I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus Christ there is
nothing unclean of itself but to him who considers anything to be unclean to him it is unclean."

YES, we need to care for the body. Just like we need to care for everything that God has blessed
us with. Not just your body, but your family, your house, your ride it should be taken care of.
but we cross the line when we make the kingdom of God about eating and drinking

https://www.andrews.edu/~jmoon/Documents/GSEM_534/Class_outline/09.pdf gives a brief but

detailed idea of what the health message is and how it was introduced to the SDA through Ellen
White.

“The body, with the mind and its central nervous system, is the only medium through which God
can communicate with human beings. This may be the most important concept of the whole
health/lifestyle message.”

https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/659.816#818 here are a few examples of the visions and

when they were proven true.

The Civil War – Ellen White was shown in vision that the civil war would indeed begin, and that
there would be millions of dead on both sides and that slaves would be freed. During the time of
the vision few thought that the war would actually begin, and that if it did, that there wouldn’t be
many casualties before it ended. President Lincoln also didn’t start the war with the intention of
freeing the slaves.
 August 22, 1862, he wrote to Horace Greeley, editor of the New York Tribune:
“My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I
could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would
do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.’..

https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/756.792#792 information on her vision in comparison to

history and how detailed its prediction was.
9/11 - Now this one is quite something to me, considering all the other means by which 9/11 was
also predicted in media and video games before it happened and how long I had been wrapped
up in details surrounding the event. I never actually knew she had this vision until late last year,
when I started reading some of her work again. How I initially felt about 9/11 changed over the
year based on the information made available to me, but this blew my mind even more.
In 1901, she says she was in vision in New York and she beheld buildings rising story after story,
reaching higher and higher towards the heaven. They were erected to glorify their owners and
builders and money. She said she saw men looking in awe to the lofty buildings and saying they
are fireproof. The next scene she describes is an alarm of fire. Fire engines couldn’t be operated,
and could do nothing to keep these towers from being utterly destroyed. They were consumed as
if made of pitch.- Testimonies for the Church, vol. 9, pp. 12, 13.

https://www.ellenwhite.info/nyc_wtc_9-11_terrorist_attacks.htm this goes into more detail

regarding everything that happened in New York between the time of her vision and 9/11.

So much has been revealed about this major event alone, but I never considered she would have
had anything to say about it 100 years before it happened. I’m not saying she couldn’t be
speaking about something else..but it does sound quite specific, no? (Abi> ..especially if you
read further on in the site, I found.)

Also, our church speaks quite heavily on hell and of God's elect, being that one of the 3 angel's messages
is that Judgement Hour is ever nearing.

RP> OK, but my concern/question is about how “hell” and “God’s elect” is understood (and
defined). I think it comes out below.

Regarding your understanding of the SDA church's history, William Miller didn't start the SDA church. He
was actually skeptical of the idea of changing his day of worship and also thought that Ellen White was
simply deranged and looking for attention before he met her and saw her in vision.
RP> So he did accept White’s vision as inspired?
DB< Yes, it took a while, but he did. He also accepted that she was sent by God to do His will
and would not be capable of doing and understanding the things she did without divine
intervention. She convinced many inside and outside the church that she was indeed inspired.
Keep in mind that this woman had a 3rd grade education, and didn’t even finish due to an injury
to the head. She suffered from headaches and couldn’t even walk straight in her early life. How
does a girl like that become a woman that helps build a tiny community of scorned believers into
an international congregation of believers, schools, hospitals, natural farms, pharmacies and
much more? How could she even have knowledge of the things she ‘prophesied’ without any
resources? (Abi> I also think it’s pretty crazy the way she words things/writes, considering her
lack of education and head injury. But we DO serve a God that IS known to use the weak and
lowly for His purposes.. I think in order to grow in the truth, all of these things need further study
and continual testing against/studying along with the Bible.)
Her writings cover a broad range of subjects including religion, social relationships, prophecy,
publishing, nutrition, creationism, agriculture, theology, evangelism, Christian lifestyle,
education, health, and more. She was instrumental in the establishment of universities and
medical centers all over the world, wrote over 40 books and thousands of article compilations. In
all of her work she gives glory to God, and says that only He impressed the knowledge and
visions to her in order to spread it to the world and reveal to all that would hear. More
importantly, she always points to His word for salvation and challenges us to compare her words
to the Bible. Her work wasn’t only influential in the SDA, but without God’s work through her,
it wouldn’t be the organization it is today.

the same is true of Hiram Edson, who didn't in fact come up with the idea of investigative judgement on
his own because of a vision. He did indeed have this vision, but he and all of his brethren studied
together to understand what God was trying to tell them. Remember, they all just came out of the great
disappointment because of misinterpreting Daniel's  2,300 day vision. They were scorned and ridiculed
everywhere, only their faith in God and their fellowship as they studied together kept them.None of
them achieved any of this alone, but rather came together regularly to study and debate the Word of
God. You are incorrect when saying Ellen White was considered infallible in her writings and visions. In
fact she had constant criticism from believers and unbelievers alike. Many tested her visions, her
prophecies and her writings.
RP>I am sorry, I thought I was clear that the SDA considered her as infallible. Yes, I know she
had much criticism from “others.”
DB< No, she was tested then by everyone from doctors and physicians, to magicians and
astrologers, to pastors and church members from inside and outside the SDA organization. It’s
funny actually, even the SDA didn’t agree with many of the methods she said were revealed by
God. Instead of buying a church, the organization’s first purchase was a printing press, because
she received it in vision. The SDA church also didn’t want to invest in a piece of land she said
God told them to purchase. She bought it piece by piece with her own money. Years before, she
had prophesied it would be the first Adventist University and would reach millions. They made it
a reality a few years later. She had opposition inside and outside the church, but her decisions
were an example of her trust in God. Even now, some Adventist don’t accept her works.

“1. She is utterly unconscious of everything transpiring around her, as has been proved by the most rigid tests,
but views herself as removed from this world, and in the presence of heavenly beings. EGWC 52.4
“2. She does not breathe. During the entire period of her continuance in vision, which has at different times
ranged from fifteen minutes to three hours, there is no breath, as has been repeatedly proved by pressing upon
the chest, and by closing the mouth and nostrils. EGWC 52.5
“3. Immediately on entering vision, her muscles become rigid, and joints fixed, so far as any external force can
influence them. At the same time her movements and gestures, which are frequent, are free and graceful, and
cannot be hindered nor controlled by the strongest person. EGWC 52.6
“4. On coming out of vision, whether in the day-time or a well-lighted room at night, all is total darkness. Her
power to distinguish even the most brilliant objects, held within a few inches of the eyes, returns but gradually,
sometimes not being fully established for three hours. This has continued for the past twenty years; yet her
eyesight is not in the least impaired, few persons having better than she now possesses. 

https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/651.653 regarding her being infallible, this is how her

writings relate to the bible. A very interesting read with much evidence of how God worked
through her and how she praises only Him and glorifies only His Word.
She writes things like:
“I recommend to you dear reader, the Word of God as the rule of your faith and practice. By that
Word we are to be judged. God has, in that Word, promised to give visions in the ‘last days’, not
for a new rule of faith, but for the comfort of His people, and to correct those who err from Bible
truth.”
“Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light (her writings) to lead men
and women to the Greater Light (the Word of God).”
“You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God’s Word your study, with a desire
to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the
Testimonies. It is because you have neglected to acquaint yourselves with God’s inspired Book
that He has sought to reach you by simple, direct testimonies, calling your attention to the Words
of inspiration which you had neglected to obey, and urging you to fashion your lives in
accordance with its pure and elevated teachings.”

Certainly not written like a woman who has a 3 rd grade education and was basically disabled.

The bible tells us exactly how to test false prophets from God's prophets, where has she failed? 
RP>According to Revel. 22:18,19 (adding to God’s revelation in the Scriptures); also that, with
the completion of Scriptures, past forms of God revealing truth have ceased (2Tim.3:15; 2Peter
1:19; Heb. 1:1,2)
DB< Do you have any examples of what she added to or took away from the Bible?
God has never stopped and will never stop revealing truth. The Bible says that in the last days
knowledge will increase. We live in a world where a lot of what we believe is manufactured, not
just religiously; but also, what many believe about history, science, social constructionism,
technology, and major events is manipulated. Knowledge increasing wasn’t just about
technology and physics; truths are being revealed and perspectives are changing. Knowledge of
the truth of good and evil is increasing.

Ellen White actually encouraged us to test the word of prophets (including herself); and the SDA
continues to teach that to even young kids in their lesson studies.

The Bible tells us to test false prophets from true prophets in 4 ways: Comparing their words to
the BIBLE (Isaiah 8;20) “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this
Word, it is because there is no light in them.”
Observing their ACTIONS (Mat 7:16) “You will know them by their fruits.”
The RESULTS of their prophecies (Jer 28.9) “When the word of the prophet comes to pass, the
prophet will be known as one whom the Lord has truly sent.”
Their testimony of JESUS (1 John 4:2) “By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that
confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God.”

Its interesting to note that last week, Ellen White was The Catholic Church's 'Heretic of the Week'.
Hahah, I mean really. The woman has been dead for over a century, and in the first month of 2020, she
is the center of the 'catholic' church's attention, why?
RP> You need to separate “catholic” church from “Roman Catholic” (see below).
DB< We have reason to believe that time has caused all things to become more and more
evident. The Vatican has for a long time been calling Protestant churches back into its fold.
Church leaders are listening and, believe it or not, there are protestant churches already shaking
hands with Rome. Ellen White also prophesied this when she spoke of signs to look out for
before the International Sunday Law is passed, before this New World Order, Church and State,
Beast System of Daniel and Revelations is come. https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/39.768
Information on a lot she said would take place regarding Sunday laws and the churches unifying
once more under Rome when the stage is finally set.

And no, we don't identify as 'catholic/universal' for very good reason. 

RP>Well I do hope this is said out of a different understanding of “catholic/universal.” We use it
as Scripture teaches such a Church (Eph. 1:10,22,23; Eph. 5:23,27,32; Col. 1:18—and many
more), and it is the Church which holds to the “faith which was once for all delivered to the
saints” (Jude v.3). This is the Church of the whole number of the elect of all times and all
places, whose Head is Jesus Christ…etc. It is this Church that Christ said, “I will build My
church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it” (Mt. 16:18). For all these reasons
anything calling itself “Christian” but being outside of this Church is called a “cult.”
DB< I am in agreement that every verse here is pertaining to those in the body of Christ, being
His Church, the body of believers internationally - past, present, and future. This is the exact
Body of Christ I am a part of, along with many of those that share my beliefs. Simply because
we perceive certain scriptures differently (sometimes because of Ellen Whites clarifications,
sometimes otherwise), we are deemed as a cult and cut off from this ‘Universal’ Church?
I still have had no direct proof that would lead me to believe that the SDA has ‘seriously
departed from Bible truth’. I do see differences; where we can take scripture more literally than
you, and the other way around, but no departure.
The Bible speaks quite clearly about this universal church/state government that be in power
during the end times, and it is certainly not the Rock upon which Christ built His Church. It is an
abomination; the Bible describes her as a Whore that makes the whole world drink of the cup of
her fornication. Her fornication being her idolatry and blasphemy and corruption of God’s Word.
The SDA doesn’t label other protestant churches or followers of God as cults. We are taught that
there are people who really worship God, people who tell themselves they worship God but
really only worship what they are taught and what suites them, people that think they don’t
worship anything but really worship themselves, and people that worship the devil. There are
true followers of God everywhere, in every church; some who have only received parts of the
truth and await for more to be revealed, some who have only received a book and a testimony
and have yet to be taught, encouraged, or driven to completely submit to His Will. We are taught
that we all are brothers and sisters in the body of Christ, and that they only way to salvation is to
submit yourself completely to Him(His Word/Law). But also that there are also those that work
purposefully to destroy our work as believers, to cause confusion and chaos where God’s work is
flourishing.