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We've read Treasure Island that wonderful Robert Louis Stevenson book many many
times over the years and I remember once having that extraordinary moment where I
looked around and I thought this is it. This is the stuff I was reading the book. I had two
toddlers on my lap. I didn't have the fifth baby at that point so just four of them. My son
was stretched out on the back of the sofa behind my shoulders kind of like a jaguar. I
had another daughter my eldest daughter tucked in next to me. On the floor my
husband was lying there in his suit having just come home from work to join the story
and I thought I am really doing something real here. And I'm thrilled to discover through
the research from my book that that wasn't just a kind of gauzy impression. It's true we
really do something very significant when we read aloud. There is a physiological reward
in sitting down together with a book and a child or for the child with a book and a
parent. It's a chemical alteration that takes place. For instance stress hormones are
decreased and binding hormones increase. Just that simple kind of lovely sacrificial
moment of sitting down together. And then we also know that the picture book
experience for a child is immensely nourishing cognitively. There is research now that
shows us that when a child is looking at the pictures in a picture book, and listening to
the words the vocabulary, the cadences, the grammar, the voice of the loved one
reading the story all sorts of important brain networks are engaging in synchronizing in
a way that is very productive in developing a child's kind of cognitive capacities.

LL: More from that conversation with Meghan Cox Gurdon coming up Monday on The
Current. I'm Laura Lynch and this is the Friday edition of The Current.

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NEWSCSTER 1: You don’t have to look hard in [unintelligible] South Pakistan's militant
hot bed to find signs the Afghan insurgent leader Mullah Omar might be here.

NEWSCASTER 2: Five years ago, Afghanistan's president Hamid Karzai in an exclusive

NEWSCASTER 3: Today in a steep the office of Afghanistan's president, said Mullah Omar
died in 2013 at any hospital. An official said he had hepatitis.

LL: That was the conventional wisdom about Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar
who had apparently fled to Pakistan after the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001. Even the
10 million dollar bounty on his head didn't help U.S. forces track him down. And all the
while he was apparently directing the Taliban activities from deep in hiding. He was so
elusive a few people even know what he looked like, except for the fact he had only one
eye. The only news of Mullah Omar came in 2015 with the announcement of his death
that it actually happened two years earlier. Now a new book is casting Mullah Omar's
story in an entirely new light. It alleges Omar never left Afghanistan and lived for years
as a recluse. Surprisingly close to a major U.S. military base. Dutch journal Betta Dam
spent five years researching the life and death of Mullah Omar interviewing his long
time bodyguard and other Taliban insiders as well as Afghan officials. Her book is called
Searching for an Enemy better. Bette Dam joins me now from Amsterdam. Hello.

BETTE DAM: Hi.

LL: Can we start with this? Can you remind us who Mullah Mohammed Omar was?

BETTE DAM: Yes to me and I think to many in Europe in the rest of the world he was is
this most wanted terrorist some called him a monster who had this Taliban regime
where he destroyed Buddha’s. He helped Osama bin Laden to attack America on 9/11,
extremist Salafi leader close to Al Qaeda. That's what I knew when I started the research
who was actually operating from Pakistan, organized the insurgency.

LL: And how long did he actually lead the Taliban?

BETTE DAM: He lead it from 1994 until 9/11.

LL: Now how widely accepted was the notion that Mullah Omar ended up in Pakistan
after the coalition invasion?

BETTE DAM: I think it was widely accepted. It was a story that was told to us, journalists,
as were in Afghanistan from the good servers in Kabul, from political leader in the
pallace in Kabul, but also they were close to the American intelligence and the American
generals who also told us this story that he was always in Pakistan, actually closely
connected to the Pakistani intelligence and Islamabad organizing the insurgency against
us.

LL: How much proof had ever been offered for him being in Pakistan?

BETTE DAM: Yes. During this period of research I found that there was not much proof
of coming from Kabul. For example like maybe a good source who was with him in
Karachi you in the city Quetta or more maybe an officer, a Secret Service officer who
leaked that he saw Mullah Omar and maybe in a mosque or something. It did not
appear when I asked for it. It was not in the news. There was nothing on him being in
Pakistan or for example that he died in a hospital in Karachi, something the Americans
and the Kabal governments say. But there is no proof of that.

LL: So what about you during those years did you believe it too?
BETTE DAM: Yes of course. When I started this research I definitely was thinking for like
three, three and a half years that he was in Pakistan. In the beginning of this research I
began with his youth. I invested a lot of time in going to the people who met him when
he was young when he was fighting against the Soviet Union. For example when he was
the leader. I got more connections along the road, I was speaking to people who were
basically in Quetta who were actually hiding in Pakistan. Number two, number three
secretaries of high level leadership I was able to meet. And they all portrayed this
picture of him being super powerful. But when I asked to share some proof -- for
example letters, recordings, his decisions, for example, interventions in military strategy
of the Taliban or writing statements, there was nothing so that was the moment I
started changing my mind. I figured that the leadership of the Taliban hiding in Pakistan
did not have a lot of contact with Mullah Omar. Many actually had no idea where he
was.

LL: So when you started piecing this story together, the story begins when the coalition
captured Kandahar, what surprised you about what you found out about that?

BETTE DAM: It turns out that basically the new upcoming President, Hamid Karzai, in
December 2001 when the Taliban was toppled was reaching out to Taliban one
leadership and the Taliban leadership was reaching out to him and they were making
connection to have a surrender to organise a surrender, something Karzai was proud of.
He basically dismantled politically the Taliban. The Taliban leaders should have told him
you are now the new leader. We will back off and wait until you give us further
instructions.

LL: So what happens?

BETTE DAM: That historical moment for peace I think was not accepted in Washington
D.C. You see in the reporting that the next day after Karzai is happy to announce this
deal, that the Rumsfeld intervenes.

LL: Donald Rumsfeld who was the defense secretary at the time.

BETTE DAM: Yes exactly the defense secretary had the mobile telephone number of the
satellite phone of Karzai and called him. This is not going to happen. The Taliban is our
enemy. The Daily is like AL Qaeda and we will send troops. It's basically war. And Karzai
said to me that he accepted that hoping that he would later on restore this, but he was
never able to do that.

LL: \What happened to Mullah Omar after that?

BETTE DAM: It was of course unknown. Many people thought took the motorcycle to
Pakistan. That was the main narrative but he, together with his replacement, he
appointed a replacement and basically withdrew from that power and he said to
another mullah that he would be the new leader. But at that time it's important to
understand that there's nothing much left of the Taliban.

LL: So Mullah Omar at this point sort of withdraws from the from the herding up the
Taliban and gets out of Kandahar and essentially goes into hiding. Now before we find
out what happened, next tell us about Jabbar Omari because he's a key part of the story.

BETTE DAM: So Jabbar Omari at that time was governor of the Taliban regime in the
north of Afghanistan and the commander. He was selected to provide security to Mullah
Omar and he stayed with Mullah Omar all the time from 2001 until his death.

LL: And you found him. How did you end up finding him?

BETTE DAM: Yes. In 2018, end of 2017. I got the news that he was arrested and that was
a big opportunity for me because I knew that I had to speak to him. I did not know which
prison he was; Guantanamo Bay, Bagram, wherever the Americans had brought him. So
that was a bit of a job to find him. But I managed.

LL: And where was he?

BETTE DAM: He was in a safe house of the Afghan intelligence service.

LL: Still in Afghanistan.

BETTE DAM: Still in Afghanistan.

LL: Based on your conversations with him what did you find out about where Mullah
Omar had gone into hiding? Where he was living?

BETTE DAM: He chose to be in the House of the driver of Omari, Abdul Ustaz. And they
stayed there for four years and Omari, but also neighbors of that house told me stories
of how Abdul Ustaz told family but also neighbors like there's a very big important
Taliban in my house, don't come close, it's very dangerous but we need to take care of
him. And he tried to scare away people not to come. All those details are in the report I
wrote. But in 2004 when the Americans decided to build a very big base in that area, a
walking distance from that house they moved.

LL: So you're telling me he was living within walking distance of a U.S. military base.

BETTE DAM: Yes at that time the first location, the military base was built on walking
distance but Mullah, Omar, Omari and the driver - Ustaz - left because Ustaz is originally
together with Omari from a little district outside of [unintelligible]. It's only 30-40
minutes’ drive but he decided to go there. It's very much a pro-Taliban area. So it's really
a loyal group of people around them.

LL: So were they safe from the U.S. military in the second location?

BETTE DAM: No they were not, interestingly enough. When they arrived there the
Americans build another buis across the road so to say it's just like one hour walking
distance from the location of Mullah Omar hiding place which is the base of forward
operating base Wolverine. And they basically lived together until Mullah Omar died.

LL: So he was living under the nose of the U.S. military for years.

BETTE DAM: Yes. It's important to know the nation of the American forces where they
were in, in areas like this. For example they told us how difficult it was for them to
operate there. One intelligence officer said 'the only thing we were trying was to keep
the road open. That kept us busy every day. It was full of insurgents around us. So don't
ask me did you focus on capturing a most wanted or not. We didnt have time for it'.
Another one told me 'oh no no the most wanted, he would not be inside Afghanistan. It
was very much a tunnel vision in the camp on Pakistan'.

LL: But do you know why the Afghans would have announced that he died in Karachi?
Was there a moment for that?

BETTE DAM: Well I think there is a political need in Kabul for much longer this conflict
between Baghdad than in Afghanistan where Kabul is accusing Pakistan of intervening
by means using the Taliban to attack the Americans in Afghanistan to control
Afghanistan from Islamabad. And that’s what the big fear is from Kabul which is
understandable because so many Taliban are actually in Pakistan.

LL: There has been a lot of reaction to your reporting from people on social media, from
the Afghan president spokesperson who described your claims as quote "delusional".
And he also said that it is an effort to create and build an identity for the Taliban and
their foreign backers. And then also David Petraeus who is the former CIA director and
one time commander in Afghanistan responded to your work in a piece at the Wall
Street Journal and said he would be surprised if Mullah Omar would have taken the risk
of staying in Afghanistan. I am wondering what you make of all of this criticism youre
facing.

BETTE DAM: I did what I did. I’m sharing my report is extremely transparent. You can
see why I talk to. This is a news story its against the narrative. I realized that. I don’t find
it very easy to publish this, but at the same time I am calm. I know what I have done. It's
a long research. I think it’s important that the book will be published too. Mullah Omar,
the man itself his political views before 9/11 already explained that he would maybe not
trust Pakistan to go there anyway. He had a very apprehensive attitude towards political
intervention from the outside world and also from [unintelligible]. That is an interesting
new detail we need to know, the distrust of the Taliban towards Pakistan before 9/11
and how is that now. It's important knowledge.

LL: Okay but I want to play some tape for you now. They are some of the assertions that
were made about where Mullah Omar was. First, we'll here then Afghan President
Hamid Karzai speaking to Indian TV in 2007, followed by U.S. David Petraeus in an
interview with NPR in 2009, and then - then Pakistani president - Pervez Musharraf
speaking in 2011 with the BBC. Let's start with Hamid Karzai.

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HAMID KARZAI: Now I know for a fact. I know it from those who have met with him that
he is around Quetta. It's something that I know for a fact. I can say anything else. I'd be
lying if I say he was not there.

DAVID PETRAEUS: He is in fact the leader of the Afghan Taliban and the leader of the
Quetta Shura and indeed he is generally thought to be located most of the time, if not
all the time, in Pakistan.

PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: Mullah Omar has no reason to be in Pakistan. He's never been in
Pakistan. He has always been in Kandahar region all through his life.

LL: Okay so just again to recap. That was then Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf in
2011, before him, U.S. David Petraeus in 2009, and first of all we started off with then
Afghan President Hamid Karzai in 2007. Bette which of those three men were speaking
in good faith when they talked about where Mullah Omar was?

BETTE DAM: Well I don’t know. As a journalist I tried to just stay away from all of them,
in a sense that I don’t know what Musharraf knew. I do know that while I visited Pakistan
and asked for example high level Pakistani intelligence, but also the political leaders
about Mullah Omar. I found out that Pakistan was very sure that Mullah Omar was not
in Pakistan. But what does that mean? You always need to cross-check this. You always
need to find eyewitnesses. The same for Karzai. If Karzai meets people who met Mullah
Omar in Karachi or in Quetta I invite Karzai to tell the names and to have something
more than only claims. That is all I have to say. My experience of 14 years in
Afghanistan, 14 years in this global war on terror is that there has been a lot of spinning.
There has been a lot of framing. There has been a lot of claims. At the same time we
have not seen a lot of good journalism and what I find most important outcome of this
report actually.

LL: Some people who were listening to this may ask, because Mullah Omar is dead the
Taliban is under a different leadership, so why does it even matter what he was doing all
of those years?

BETTE DAM: First of all, I think we lack good knowledge on this insurgency movement.
And I am not supporting the terrorist if I support the idea of more knowledge about
them. There is now a strong idea of making me a Taliban sympathizer. That's not the
case I'm just worried, I'm worried about a war that has cost so many lives and there is so
much misunderstanding about all the partners in this war on terror theatre. So the only
thing is that I am trying to be an amazing journalist, trying to cross-check. That's all. So it
matters because the Taliban is only getting more powerful. If we wanted to or not that's
the reality. And do we know them? So by reading about Mullah Omar I think we get a lot
more knowledge on who they are, how to deal with them, what if they come back and
they will beat up women in Kabul again? What are you going to do with that?
[Unintelligible] cutting off hands, cutting off legs. Those things we all remember. Is there
a way we can have a diplomatic approach to this group of people now and can we talk
to them about this? Can I make this debate and have a new situation where these things
are not happening?

LL: Well then that raises the question that as the Taliban pursues peace talks with the
United States right now how should you report reported change our understanding of
the process?

BETTE DAM: I think from the book there is more openings to talk to the Taliban than
you might think. That is a short answer and that in a way creating more bridges between
the two groups than my might have taught me. It also gives you a little bit of grip on the
movement and who they are, instead of this faraway monster that is only against us. So
I think that is why it's good to have this out and to read about his life to learn for now.

LL: But you yourself just raised the specter of the Taliban returning to power and
bringing down horrendous treatment on so many people especially women. So why
would your book help to broach differences with the Taliban?

BETTE DAM: No I think you can do two things as negotiators. You can see them as the
monsters the ones who work with Al Qaeda and are against us and are they anti-
Western or like Salafi, do want to support terrorists on their territory. Those are
assumptions I all address. And there is much more room for a debate with them. There
are uncertain aspects, misunderstood because of an American narrative that is
interesting to read. How do field research how interviews would this insurgency
movement is creating new narratives that we never knew, just simply because the
American narrative is square dominant. And also journalism was mostly embedded in
Afghanistan. So we basically we flew in with troops or we interviewed the American
embassy or our naval officers there which created a lot of misunderstanding about who
they were.

LL: Well let's be clear then, you're suggesting that there could be a peace pact with the
Taliban that has them return to a role in governance of the country where they don't
practice some of the - as I said before - horrendous practices that they carried out
before?

BETTE DAM: I think there is not a question of 'if' any more. There was a question of if in
2001 to 2003. They were gone. They gave up. They were ready to play a minor role in the
country where Karzai would play the big role, Karzai and the Americans that didn't work
out. Karzai got the power. The Americans were with him. In short they created the
regime that was more and more corrupt. It created a lot of enmity towards the
government. Many Taliban are against the government because they lost their brother
or they lost their two sisters or their five family members. There are many many if you
speak to them. They join those movements because they are against the government
that doesn't mean they are ideologically very far from us. So I think now the Kabul
government has not much power at this moment. At the same time the group of day
government Taliban and all those people who support them is very big. Now I am
describing this group as not so far away as you think, not these only big monsters that
you cannot talk to. I am critical but I am also giving more information that gives you a
way to deal with them and understand them.

LL: And prevent them from being monsters.

BETTE DAM: Exactly. I think the harshness of the Taliban the way if they get power it will
also depend on the unrest in Afghanistan. If there is like today for example there is a
civil war nation in one of the cities from Mazar el Sharif where groups fight each other at
the moment well you speak. If that continues in more cities and people are insecure and
are robbing each other and creating unrest, the sanctions of the Taliban will be higher in
order to control this.

LL: Okay Better Dam I think you very much for your time.

BETTE DAM: Thank you.

LL: Dutch journalists Bette Dam is the author of a new book Searching for an Enemy.
She spoke to us from Amsterdam. That is our program for today. Stay tuned to Radio 1
for Q Live at the Junos. Join host time power in London Ontario for performances by
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She is the 16 year old Swedish activist who inspired the school strikes taking place
around the world today. This is part of her speech from the COP 24 climate negotiations
in Poland last December. I'm Laura Lynch thanks for listening to the Friday edition of
The Current.