Bulletin of Concerned Asian Scholars

ISSN: 0007-4810 (Print) (Online) Journal homepage: https://www.tandfonline.com/loi/rcra19

Women in North Korea: An interview with the

Korean democratic women's union

Jon Halliday

To cite this article: Jon Halliday (1985) Women in North Korea: An interview with the
Korean democratic women's union, Bulletin of Concerned Asian Scholars, 17:3, 46-56, DOI:
10.1080/14672715.1985.10409826

To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/14672715.1985.10409826

Published online: 05 Jul 2019.

Submit your article to this journal

Article views: 564

View related articles

Full Terms & Conditions of access and use can be found at

https://www.tandfonline.com/action/journalInformation?journalCode=rcra20
Women in North Korea: An Interview with
the Korean Democratic Women's Union

by JonH~liday*
Historical Background
From 1910 (formally, de facto earlier) until 1945 Korea of sexism which pre-dated both Japanese colonialism and the
was under extremely harsh occupation by Japan. During this advent of US imperialism. A particularly e m b l e m a t i c - - a n d
period, when every component of Korean culture was cruelly p r o b l e m a t i c - - i n s t a n c e is that in the period before the formal
suppressed, Korean women suffered specific oppression. Very imposition of Japanese rule in 1910 the Korean state, which
large numbers of Korean women were forcibly driven into was male dominated, executed by decapitation Korean women
prostitution, both in Korea itself and throughout the Japanese who "consorted" with Japanese m e n ? So far as I know, similar
empire. Many were forced into prostitution for Japanese troops punishment was not visited on Korean men who "consorted"
in appalling conditions, often in the front lines, and many were with Japanese women (or with Japanese men). Clearly here, a
killed in the trenches.' Within general Japanese sexism, there potentially salutary response to Japanese male sexism was
was a specificity to the attempt to degrade and exploit Korean transmuted into sexist retribution against K o r e a n women.
women. Certain aspects of contemporary Democratic People's This evasion may well be linked to a second one: the
Republic of Korea (DPRK) official culture must be understood conspicuous failure of the DPRK to come to terms with its
as attempts to combat the legacy of this colonial past. The
emphasis on " p u r i t y " - - f o r w o m e n - - w h i c h is articulated by
both men and women in the DPRK is justified officially by
reference to both the Japanese colonial past and the contempor-
ary degradation o f women in South Korea, which is usually 2. This male-imposedconcept of "purity" also involves the suppression of an
attributed mainly to US and Japanese influences, such as sex important part of Korea's cultural past. Gavan McCormack reports being told
tourism. 2 (falsely) by a DPRK historian in 1980 that Korea's tradition "was of a degree
However, the official DPRK position conceals several of purity superior to other East Asian countries" because it lacked any
equivalent to Japanese erotic paintings or Chinese erotic novels (Gavan
evasions. First, Korean society had its own autonomous forms McCormack, "North Korea: Kimilsungism--Path to Socialism?" Bulletin of
Concerned Asian Scholars [henceforth: BCAS], Vol. 13, no. 4 lOct.-Dec.
1981], p. 57). Contemporary male-imposed puritanism also seems to deny the
possibility of an autonomous female eroticism and of women's right to this.
The Cuban writer Carlos Franqui notes that Korean puritanism exceeds even
*My thanks to Bruce Cumings and Brett Nee for very helpful critical comments. that of other post-revolutionarystates, including not only the USSR and China,
Any errors are solely mine. I have done short bibliographies on North Korea but also Cuba, which had an extremely harsh experience of US sexism within
in Vol. 11, no. 4 (1979) and Vol. 16, no. 4 (1984) of the Bulletin. recent decades (Franqui, Family Portrait with Fidel [London, Cape, 1983],
I. Saburo Ienaga, The Pacific War: World War H and the Japanese, p. 21 l).
1931-1945 (New York, Pantheon, 1978), p. 159; cf. p. 184. See also the 3. Mikiso Hane, Peasants, Rebels, and Outcastes: The Underside of Modern
appalling account by Yoshida Kiyoharu, a former Japanese official involved Japan (London, Scholar Press; New York, Pantheon, 1982), p. 219, citing
in shanghaiing Korean women, in People's Korea (Tokyo), Aug. 21 & 28, Morisaki Kazue, Karayuki-san (Tokyo, Asahi Shimbunsha, 1976), p. 120-123,
1982. 127ff. (The word "consorted" is Hane's).
46
own Confucian past.' Whereas both China and Vietnam have Secondly, between October and December 1950 some 90
waged major campaigns of varying effectiveness against their percent of the territory and population of the DPRK were
Confucian pasts, the DPRK stands out among the East Asian occupied by the US and its allies. This is, inter alia, the only
post-revolutionary regimes by its silence on this score. time in history (apart from the marginal case of Grenada) when
Confucianism struck particularly deep roots in Korea, and it the US has actually occupied a Communist country. It seems
is not fanciful to suggest that there may be powerful links probable that the DPRK lost 12-15 percent of its population
between this Confucian past and the manifestly patriarchal during the war--a much higher percentage than the Soviet
present under the "Great Leader" Kim I1 Sung and the "Dear Union lost in the Second World War. Just over half the Korean
Leader" Kim Jong I1 (his son). dead were men?
Third, male sexism and violence against women have not These two factors condition official DPRK attitudes to
been a monopoly of the representatives of capitalism in the population growth. The historical conditions are further
modern era. The Soviet Red Army committed a large number aggravated by the high level of military preparedness on the
of rapes and other acts of violence against women in Northern Korean peninsula. Both North and South Korea have very large
Korea when it first arrived. These are neither included in the armed forces. In 1983 the South reportedly had 622,000 people
official account nor explicitly adduced as a cause of current under arms (all men). The North's armed forces (mainly, but
policies and attitudes. 5 not exclusively, male) are probably less than this, but the
Lastly, while the DPRK has adopted the standard rhetoric proportion of the North's population under arms is much higher
of Marxism common to all post-revolutionary societies, it, like than in the South. 9 This high level of militarization also
the others, has not come to terms with the incomplete legacy reinforces male domination in the DPRK.
of this tradition. 6 On the contrary, the DPRK and its leader
Kim I1 Sung have grafted this incomplete ideology onto their
own Confucian traditions without much questioning of the
inadequacies of the two strands, particularly as regards the
autonomy of women.
The position of women in the DPRK is also directly When I asked about women who might not want
affected by material factors. Among these is the ratio of to have children I was told: "All women in our
Northern to Southern population. When Korea was divided in country want children. Any woman who did not
1945-48 the Northern part had only about one-third the South's would be considered abnormal." I checked the
population. It now has about 20 million people, compared with word "abnormal" and was assured that that was
some 42 million in the South. This demographic disadvantage
indeed what had been said. When I asked if there
was exacerbated by the effects of the Korean War of 1950-53
in two major ways. First, the North was subjected to intensive was therefore any social stigma attached to women
bombing which virtually destroyed the entire DPRK. Within who did not have children, I was told: "All women
six months of the start of the war the US grounded its bombers have children."
because, according to the head of Bomber Command in the
Far East, there were no more targets left to hit (something
which never happened in Vietnam). 7 By the end of the war,
the DPRK had been saturated with high explosives and napalm.

The position of women is determined by three major linked

pressures, which partly conflict with each other: for higher
production of material goods and services; for a larger
4. On Korean Confucianism, see: Key P. Yang and Gregory Henderson, "An population; and for a long-serving, but largely celibate army.
Outline History of Korean Confucianism," Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 18, To achieve these goals the regime has pushed almost all adult
no. 1 (Nov. 1958) and no. 2 (Feb. 1959); cf. Munsang Seoh, "The Ultimate
Concern of Yi Korean Confucians: An Analysis of the i-ki Debates,"
Occasional Papers on Korea (Seattle), No. 5 (March 1977); Michael C.
Kalton, "ChOng Tasan's Philosophy of Man: A Radical Critique of the
Neo-Confucian World View," Journal of Korean Studies (Seattle), Vol. 3
8. A Soviet source states that between 1949 and 1953 the male population of
(1981). Lew Myong-gol, "A Critique of North Korean View of the Practical
the DPRK fell from 4,782,000 to 3,982,000, while the female population fell
Learning," Vantage Point (Seoul) [henceforth: VP], Vol. 6, no. 5 (May 1983)
from 4,840,000 to 4,509,000 (V. V. Martynov, Koreya [Moscow, Izdatel'stvo
has reference to DPRK criticisms of Confucianism--in the past.
"Mysl," 1970], p. 59, cited in Robert Ante, "The Transformation of the
5. Edvard Kardelj records that when he raised the same issue with Stalin about Economic Geography of the DPRK," Korea Focus, Vol. l, no. 3 [1972], p.
Yugoslavia: "Stalin said that Soviet soldiers did not do such things, but that 55). I have discussed some of the far-reaching effects of the US-UN occupation
if there had been an odd case here and there--which was only natural--well, of North Korea in "The Korean War: Some Notes on Evidence and Solidarity,"
they had not done any real harm." (Edvard Kardelj, Reminiscences: The BCAS, Vol. I l, no. 3 (1979). Two important further sources are: We Accuse!
Struggle for Recognition and Independence: The New Yugoslavia, 1944-1957 Report of the Commission of the Women's International Democratic Federation
[London, Blond & Briggs, 1982], p. 63). in Korea, May 16 to 27, 1951 (Berlin, WIDF, 1952); and Commission of
6. The fundamental source on this whole area is Maxine Molyneux, "Socialist International Association of Democratic Lawyers, Reports on Investigations
Societies Old and New: Progress Towards Women's Emancipation," Feminist in Korea and China, March-April 1952 (Brussels, IADL, 1952).
Review (London), no. 8 (Summer 1981 ); also in Worm Development, Vol. 9, 9. The Western estimate most widely reproduced is 784,500 in the services
no. 9/10 (Sept.-Oct. 1981). (1983); but no hard evidence has ever been publicly produced for this figure;
7. Major General Emmett O'Donnell, Jr., to U.S. Congressional Hearings on among the problems in accepting it is that the official Western estimate for
the dismissal of Douglas MacArthur, June 25, 1951, p. 3075. It should be 1978 was 512,000; an increase of over a quarter of a million in the armed
specified that at the period to which O'Donnell is referring the US was forces over five years in a country the size of the DPRK would involve a huge
occupying most of North Korea. strain on the economy which would be bound to show up in other economic
47
women into production outside the home, set up a very women in political affairs is a barometer of women's position
extensive network of kindergartens and other services, and and roles."" It goes straight on to give figures for women in
encouraged a high birth rate (partly by making contraception the relatively powerless assemblies, but it does not have a
and abortion difficult to obtain), but with very late marriage. single figure for women's participation in the political
Men carry more of the burden on the military front, but women organisation which actually runs the country, the Korean
carry a disproportionate amount of the total burden in terms Workers' Party (KWP). The regime's consistent failure to
of overall work and sacrifice. provide any information about women in the KWP bodes ill
for women having a major role not only in the present but also
Gains, Limitsmand Uncertainties in the foreseable future. This manifest under-representation in
the KWP and in its ruling bodies is aggravated by the equally
No foreign visitor on a short trip to North Korea can
manifest high military component in the party.
honestly claim to be sure how anything really works. Even
Doubt about the degree of real equality is reinforced by
less so can a male visitor, who does not speak Korean, like
the stridently patriarchal style (and substance) of the regime,
myself, give a comprehensive picture of the position of
most evident in the cult of Kim I1 Sung, along with the
women--or of male oppression--after a visit of only 10
promotion of his son, Kim Jong I1, as heir apparent and the
days. 1oThe regime provides only very fragmentary information;
attendant mini-cult of Kim Jong I1.15 Along with this goes a
it blatantly evades on many very important issues and adopts
whole gamut of authoritarian and patriarchal attitudes and
an extremely cavalier attitude to facts and statistics. And not
language on the part of the ruling group. All of this is reinforced
only are certain barriers between men and women strong, but
by blatantly patriarchal and phallocratic products. In addition,
there are also the barriers between Koreans and foreigners and
some of Kim II Sung's speeches, while rhetorically calling for
a strong division between the public and the private.
equality, in fact seem to blame women for errors and forms
On the one hand, with the above qualifications, it is
of backwardness which are actually the responsibility of men. 13
manifest that, compared with the past, the position of women
The question of male responsibility and women's freedom
has greatly improved in terms of standard of living, access to
also has to be confronted in the area of sexuality and repression.
education, health and the basic human dignities, life expectancy
It is hard to believe that the regime's steely attitude towards
and access to a wide range of jobs. The most extreme form of
late marriage, with enforced sexual abstinence before marriage,
exploitation of women, prostitution, has apparently (and I
does not conceal immense sexual misery. This suffering may
believe probably in fact) been eradicated; the same goes for
concubinage. This marks a major advance over both the past hit both sexes, but it is male-imposed. There is no sign that
women have been allowed an equal say with men in reversing
and South Korea. Similarly, it seems most unlikely that the
and reforming traditional attitudes in what is, after all, supposed
crudest forms of violence against women, such as male goon
to be a new society.
squads pouring human excrement over women workers, which
Any visitor on a formal guided tour in a post-revolutionary
do occur in the South, could possibly occur in the North.
society is inevitably subjected to considerable ritual, t4 It would
On the other hand, does the equality which the regime
be an illusion to think one is seeing "the real society." In all
loudly proclaims really exist? It seems most unlikely. First, it
the "social" situations in which we were involved, and in
is clear that women still have to do far more work overall;
everything involving "entertainment," women were always
almost all adult women work outside the home more or less
both serving men and not partaking of the goods offered, except
full-time, but the bulk of housework and looking after children
in the headquarters of the Women's Union.
at h o m e is (as e v e r y w h e r e ) d o n e b y w o m e n . S e c o n d , a l t h o u g h
Towards the end of our stay we visited a cooperative farm
the regime claims to have "enforced" equality for women for
at Ryongrim, near Anju (about half way between Pyongyang
four decades, including in pay, it is also clear that male and
female wages and incomes (see below) are not equal. Some
of this is due to different occupational structures (more women
in light industry and agriculture), but it is by no means certain
that the principle of equal pay for equal work is being enacted 11. Pak I! Bun, "Women at Work," People's Korea, no. 1,234 (March 23,
either. Evidence confirming that it was would surely be 1985).
forthcoming if this were the case. Third, in the key area of 12. I have a few preliminary observations on the specificity of Kim's cult in
political power women are enormously under-represented, my "The North Korean Enigma," New Left Review (London), no. 127 (1981).
even though what has been done undoubtedly represents a Excellent analysis and evocative quotations in Bruce Cumings, "Corporatism
in North Korea," Journal of Korean Studies, vol. 4 (1982-3). Interesting
major advance over the past. Thus a very recent text on women observations in Horst Kurnitzky, "North Korea as I Saw It" (Seoul, Public
(March 1985) explicitly starts out by stating: "Participation of Relations Association of Korea, n.d. [translation, with altered title, of article
originally in Kursbuch, no. 30 (1972)]); see especially section V ("Sexuality
and Political Power").
13. See the curious passage about what Kim calls "the disaster" during the
US-UN occupation of the DPRK in 1950 in Kim, "On Some Tasks Confronting
indices; yet no such evidence has been forthcoming. In 1980 Gavan the Women's Union Organization," speech to the 3d KDWU Congress, Sept.
McCormack was told by an official in the DPRK that the armed forces were 2, 1965, in Kim, On the Work of the Women's Union (Pyongyang, FLPH,
"about 350,000-400,000" (information kindly made available by Gavan 1971), pp. 45-6; and the passage from Kim's speech to the 4th KDWU
McCormack to the author). My own visual observation (in 1977) was that Congress, "On the Revolutionization and Working-Classization of Women,"
about 10% of the armed forces were women. (FLPH, 1974), pp. 4-5 (speech delivered October 7, 1971). In addition, one
10. I visited the DPRK for ten days in summer 1977, as a guest of the Korean can hard!y avoid stating the obvious: most of the texts on "the woman question"
Society for Cultural Relations with Foreign Countries, together with the late are by a man, Kim U Sung; most of the rest are by his wife, Kim Song Ae.
Malcolm Caldwell, whose account of this interview is in his "North 14. Brilliant material on this in Hans Magnus Enzensberger, "Tourists of the
Korea--Aspects of a New Society," Contemporary Review (London), vol. Revolution," in Enzensberger, Raids and Reconstructions: Essays on Politics,
233, no. 1355 (Dec. 1978). Crime and Culture (London, Pluto, 1976).
48
and the Chinese border). It was a Sunday. We had specifically nor any reference to whether or not the apparently important
asked to visit a farm and to meet farmers, but we naively did deficiencies which he had mentioned in 1971 had been
not spell out our desire actually to see a field. So we saw the corrected.
farm and met some farmers--but never got into a field. We The possibility must therefore be confronted that the im-
were entertained at dinner in a house which had been visited provement in the formal position of women manifest after 1945
by Kim I1 Sung. Women did all the cooking and serving, while may have come to a halt, or slowed down, well short of even
the men ate a great deal and spent a lot of effort trying to force formal equality. In fact, there is little evidence, other than
food on us. When we asked about the division of labor in the official rhetoric, that genuine equality is even a real goal of
house and the absence of women from activities other than the regime.
cooking and serving, the woman who seemed to live in the Not nearly enough is known about life in the DPRK to
house (it was not clear if she really did, as it was a very artificial come to definitive conclusions (which does not mean, as some
set-up) was brought into the room where we were eating and apologists for the DPRK claim, that one can not be sure about
sat down, but ate nothing, looked uneasy (maybe bored, too), anything). Two small examples at each end of the scale are
and soon returned to the kitchen. the socialization of youth and retirement. At the Ryongrim
On the occasions when alcohol was served, no woman farm we visited a middle school (on a Sunday). The boys and
ever drank alcohol in our presence. On several occasions girls (about 12 years old) were in separate groups in the same
women disappeared when men started drinking beer. One classroom. We asked if this was sexual segregation and were
woman said that women did sometimes drink alcohol, but not told that it ws n o t - - i t was simply because, it being Sunday,
as much as men, and would rarely drink in the company of the children were in their work groups (sort of organized
men. The same person also spontaneously expressed a strong hobbies) and that in regular classes they were not segregated.
dislike of male drunksmso they apparently did then still exist We were unable to verify if this was the case or not. In any
in the "socialist paradise." Obviously, drinking beer with men case, the implication was that boys and girls were engaged in
is neither a goal of socialism nor a higher form of human different hobbies, which is itself important.
existence. All the same, is there equality? Doubts on this score As for old age, women retire at age 55, men at 60. Life
are somewhat strengthened by the charge made by a expectancy has risen markedly since Liberation. The regime
Venezuelan Communist poet and writer, Ali Lameda, who claims that life expectancy for women has now reached about
lived in the DPRK and was imprisoned there, that a woman 77 (71 for men). If so (these figures are disputed in the West),
was sent to prison for smoking (about 1970). I' Again, while this means that women have on average over 20 years of life
men smoked a lot in public, women did not. after retirement, while men have only one decade. 'e What
Apart from the regime's systematic concealment of infor- happens to women over this long period? One recent text says
marion it does not want outsiders to know, and its manifest that "many w o m e n . . , remain on their jobs and are active
willingness to lie when it wants to, there are two particular after retirement a g e . ''19 This may be a very good thing, but it
problems in its mode of dealing with "the women question." may also mean that "retirement" does not mean what the regime
The first is that the official position now is that "the women usually claims. The very rapid urbanization of the societym
question" has been "solved" (or even "brilliantly solved . . . some two-thirds of the population probably now live in urban
by the Great Leader"). When the regime makes a claim of this areas--must have put tremendous strain on the old extended
kind, it is no longer open to question. Even though inequality family. Has the regime found a way to obviate, or lessen the
between men and women remains manifest, the regime loneliness which most societies inflict on their old people?
deprives both women and men of the grounds on which to Anyone who has tried to decode and evaluate DPRK
wage a campaign for genuine equality. Indeed, I would think propaganda knows that the regime speaks with two voices. It
it would be most unwise for anyone in the DPRK to suggest is quite capable of stating as a fact something which is only a
that such a campaign was still needed--and there was certainly goal. It is also capable of presenting sharply conflicting
no sign that it was underway, much less being vigorously information, without attempting to resolve the contradictions.
waged, in 1977. From the regime's published material, it is clear that women
The second problem is that the regime seems to be quite have not yet achieved economic equality, in spite of official
haphazard in its programmatic approach to the question of claims; and, above all, they have not remotely approached
inequality and the position of women. In 1971 Kim I1 Sung political equality in the body which matters, the ruling Party.
could tell the KDWU that there were very few women in Culturally, the society is still very patriarchal. Socially, women
positions of power, especially in the KWP, (something which have undoubtedly made enormous advances over the past, but
they presumably were well aware of). ~6But at the next KWP
Congress, the 6th, in 1980, Kim I1 Sung, in devoting exactly
14 lines of a 5-hour speech to the subject, described the position
of women as solely part of the "technical" revolution, and 17. An observer at the last (6th) Party Congress in 1980 told me that less than
made no mention at all of the massive under-representation of l 0 percent of the delegates, and probably closer to 5 percent were women.
women in the Party (manifest in pictures of the Congress) '7 18. Life expectancy figures are difficult to decipher. Most DPRK sources
claim that average expectancy reached 74 years (female: 77; male: 71) around
1980. People's Korea, March 9, 1985, p. 3, appears to claim that the figure
reached 77 in 1979 (it claims 79 for men and 75 for women in that year
[presumably the other way round?]--but this claim is different from the figure
15. Ali Lameda, A Personal Account of the Experience of a Prisoner of of 74 years (average) for 1984 published on the facing page (2) of the same
Conscience in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (London, Amnesty issue as the official figure at the end of the Seven-Year Plan. The DPRK is
International, 1979), p. 19. I was told that women made up 5-10 percent of not often given the benefit of the doubt, but it has only itself to blame if it
the prison population in 1977 (interview, Pyongyang, July 1977). publishes such radically conflicting data.
16. See quotation in note 27 below. 19. Pak II Bun, 'Women at Work,' op. cit.
49
whether they have achieved equality is another matter. was raised was the one about contraception. We were told that
this would be "embarrassing." We replied that people in the
The Interview West, both men and women, would like to know about this
question and that we had been requested to ask it by both women
The text below is an almost complete version of an inter-
and m e n - - a n d that we would like to hear any refusal from the
view with representatives of the Korean Democratic Women's
women themselves and not from a man claiming to interpret
Union, the KDWU. This organization apparently groups
together all adult women in the DPRK. 2~I have reproduced an women's reactions. We suggested that if the question was not
appropriate for this interview we would like to interview a
almost verbatim text for two reasons. First, it is one of the few
woman doctor.
on-the-record interviews in which DPRK officials have
During the preliminary discussion with our guides, a
discussed issues such as contraception, abortion and remarriage;
number of observations emerged which deserve to be reported.
information about women in the DPRK is conspicuous by its
When I asked about women who might not want to have
absence in most studies on women in post-revolutionary
children I was told: "All women in our country want children.
societies. Second, I hope the full text carries some of the flavor
Any woman who did not would be considered abnormal." I
and nuances inherent in an interview conducted by two Western
checked the word "abnormal" and was assured that that was
male intellectuals on a short visit, questioning official female
indeed what had been said. When I asked if there was therefore
representatives of a regime which prides itself on being
any social stigma attached to women who did not have children,
"monolithic" and carefully controls information.
I was told: "All women have children. ''2~ On the question of
divorce, I was led to understand that it was basically a private
matter between the two parties, but that they did have to go
to some form of court to get the divorce ratified formally. One
official said, "the courts only come in in a case of venereal
"As for wages, there is no difference. There disease." One (male) official also stated that contraceptive
is equal pay for equal work. Women fin fact] have devices were freely available to all women, but that they needed
more benefits than men. Women with three a doctor's prescription. According to him, anyone could ask.
But the criteria for approval were not clear, at least to me. We
children aged thirteen or less get eight hours'
failed to ask about the availability of male contraceptives. We
pay for six hours' work. There are women's san- saw no signs of contraceptives on sale or any other indication
atoria, rest homes, maternity hospitals and that information about them was communicated in a public
children's hospitals. way.22
As for birth control, there is no such policy." The interview below took place at the heaquarters of the
KDWU in Pyongyang, the capital of the DPRK. Our three inter-
locutors were: Yi Suk Yon, 23 Chairperson of the Auditing
Committee and member of the Central Committee of the
KDWU; Yang Gi Su and Ro Song Hi, officeholders attached
to the Central Committee of the KDWU. Two of the women
During our stay in Korea we were accompanied throughout wore traditional Korean dress; the youngest one wore Western-
by two (male) officials on behalf of the Society which invited style dress (and understood English as well). The interview
us. We made our requests in advance for meetings and inter- was conducted through a (male) interpreter, across a rather wide
views via the Society. If a particular interview appeared to be room. All participants sat in large armchairs set in rows down
a probability (or a certainty), the officials would ask us to give each side of the room. Lemonade and beer were served. The
them the questions in advance, both in writing and verbally. room was air-conditioned. A portrait of DPRK President Kim
It was not always possible to prepare written questions in I1 Sung hung at one end of the room.
advance and submit them in time. Further, we made it clear After initial formalities, we started out by stating briefly
that we preferred to have a freewheeling discussion whenever
possible. However, after a brief period in the country, it became
clear to us that we got more information, especially of a factual
kind, if we stated in advance what we wanted to ask. We
therefore communicated in advance the areas and issues we 21. We frequently encountered such "total" slogans and answers. Ritual use
wanted to discuss, while explicitly reserving the "right" to of them, of course, undermines all DPRK evidence. The possibility that there
might be a childless married woman in the DPRK is evident in the tale of the
pursue questions in the discussion. In the case of the interview woman worker at the famous Vinalon factory at Hamhung who was discovered
with the KDWU we did not submit written questions in by Kim II Sung to be childless after several years of marriage. The Great
advance, but went very fully over the ground several days Leader immediately endowed her with a gift of his personal supply of ginseng
ahead with our guides. The only question to which an objection root, whereupon she reportedly produced four children in the next four years.
"All women" may include those with children by adoption.
22. In other conversations with officials we asked about sex education.
Specifically, we asked if it was usually given in the family or at school. We
were told that it was not given by either, and that the state did not have an
20. In 1971, Kim U Sung said: "Every woman in our country now belongs explicit policy on it. When we suggested that it might be considered a lacuna
to her organization" (Kim, "On the Revolutionization and Working-Classiza- in state practice to fail to have a policy in such an important field, we were
tion of Women," speech given Oct. 7, 1971 to the KDWU lPyongyang, FLPH, told that sex education material was available at schools, but that each child
1974], p. 6). Some sources suggest that the KDWU is mainly for women who had to seek it out as best she or he could on their own. We were told flatly
are not members of the ruling Korean Workers' [Communist] Party. We failed that sex before marriage "does not exist in our country."
to get clarification on this. 23. Korean names are given surname first.
50
w h y we had asked for the interview. W e said that m a n y w o m e n into industry, leaving women as the majority of farm workers:
in the W e s t had asked us to discuss these questions, and that is this correct? And what are average wages for women and
m a n y people, both male and female, in the W e s t w o u l d like men throughout the economy?
to k n o w about the position of w o m e n in the D P R K and about Third, what is the current birth rate, and what is the
attempts to e n d male d o m i n a t i o n . W e gave a brief outline o f growth rate of the population as a whole? Is it correct that the
the w o m e n ' s m o v e m e n t in the W e s t and its political import- latter fell from the early 1960s to reach a figure of about 2
ance, e m p h a s i z i n g its radical and progressive nature. (This percent per annum in the period 1970-197426
appeared to be n e w s to our interlocutors, b u t their reaction Fourth, what percentage of the total membership of the
m a y have b e e n a form o f politeness, which I could not "read" [Korean Workers'] Party is made up of women? And in its
correctly). The K D W U officials indicated that they would be leading organs--e.g., the Central Committee; and in other
interested in receiving material produced b y the w o m e n ' s leading bodies, such as the Central People's Committee? And
m o v e m e n t in the West. in the cabinet? In his address to the 4th Congress of the KDWU
In order to try to avoid m i s u n d e r s t a n d i n g we said that in 1971 President Kim II Sung pointed out that while women
some o f the questions we w a n t e d to ask might be considered make up half the population of the country, they account for
delicate and asked the K D W U officials to say in advance if much less than half the leading cadres throughout the society. 27
there were any areas or subjects they did not w a n t to discuss. What concrete steps are being taken to rectify the situation?
T h e y said there were none. The text below has b e e n reproduced And what is the KDWU's policy for correcting the imbalance?
from notes I m a d e at the time. It has not b e e n checked b y the Are you vigorously combating male supremacy in the Party
K D W U . I have added explanatory notes and some additional and the state?
information. Fifth, what is the average age of marriage,for both women
The procedure adopted was that we read out a list of and men? What is the minimum legal age of marriage? And
questions at the b e g i n n i n g after our introductory explanation. are women in the armed forces allowed to marry?
Some s u p p l e m e n t a r y questions came up during and after the We would also be very interested to hear about the
K D W U replies. marriage ceremony here: is it a big occasion? Roughly how
many people, and what sort of people, would attend?
Sixth, we would like to ask about divorce. What is the
procedure for obtaining a divorce? Can it just be by mutual
Questions consent? And what grounds are necessary for obtaining it? In
what circumstances do the courts intervene? What is the
We would first of all like to get some idea of the place of divorce rate? And what is the situation as regards child
women in the economy of the DPRK. What is the ratio of custody?
women to men in the labor force as a whole? The last figure In addition, we would like to know about remarriage for
we have for the ratios in the population as a whole is women whose husbands are still alive. We have been led to
51.3:48.7--but this is for 1963.241s this still the same or not? understand that this is very rare or non-existent: is this so?
And can you give us precise information about the age distribu- Seventh, are birth control methods freely available? What
tion of the population by sex? is the procedure for obtaining contraceptive devices? Is a
Second, what percentage of women are actively employed? doctor's certificate necessary? Is there any difference depend-
And what is the distribution by sector--as a percentage of the ing on whether a woman is married or not?
industrial work force, and in the tertiary sector? The latest Eighth, is abortion legal? And what are considered legiti-
figures we have date from 1971, which show women accounting mate grounds?
for 45.5 percent of the industrial work force, and possibly 48 Ninth, we would be very interested to know whether the
percent of the work force as a whole. 2s Is this still the same, distinction between legitimacy and illegitimacy has been
or not? It has been suggested that more men are being moved officially abolished. Are there any single mothers in the DPRK,
and, if so, what is their social position? Is there any
discrimination against an unmarried mother?
Tenth, we would like to know about how work in and
24. Chong-Sik Lee, "Social Changes in North Korea: A Preliminary around the house is divided up. For example, who would
Assessment," Journal of Korean Affairs, Vol. 6, no. 1 (1976), p. 20. US
government sources indicate that the population imbalance resulting from the
Korean War had been righted by 1968 at the latest (see Rinn-sup Shinn et al,
Area Handbookfor NorthKorea [Washington, D.C., US GPO, October 1969],
p. 65).
25. Kim I1 Sung, in "On the Revolutionization and Working-Classization of 26. Lee, op. cit., p. 19; confirmed by M. Glebova and V. Mikheyev, "Some
Women," op. eit., p. 13, said that women were 45.5% of the work force in Aspects of Economic Development of the Democratic People'g Republic of
industry; Lee (see p. 20 of reference in n. I) cites an interview by Kim with Korea," Far Eastern Affairs (Moscow) [henceforth: FEA], no. 1, 1983, pp.
the Asahi Shimbun (Sept. 25, 1971) in which Kim is reported to have said 89-90. The World Bank's WorldDevelopmentReport 1984 (Table 20, p. 257)
that 48 percent of the industrial work force were women. Additional conjectures gives the crude birth rate as 30 per thousand (1982); the Asia 1984 Yearbook
in Lee Won-jun, "North Korean Labor Policy and its New Labor Plan," gives the birth rate as 32 per thousand (year not given) (p. 6). The World
Vantage Point(Seoul) [henceforth: VP),Vol. 1, no. 5 (Sept. 1978), pp. 15-16. Factbook 1984 (U.S. CIA, Washington, D.C., April 1984) gives average
The figures of 45.5 and 48 percent are given as current in a very recent text, annual growth rate as 2.3 percent (p. 125).
Pak II Bun, "Women at Work," People'sKorea, no. 1,234 (March 23, 1985), 27. "We have a very small number of women cadres today in view of the
p. 3. This text also states: "Especially, in light industry, women hold a majority. large number of women on the j o b . . . [a]t present the overwhelming majority
It is not too much to say that women are producing almost all products of light of [cadres] are men at both national and local l e v e l s . . . And even this small
industry, including daily necessities, which are closely related to living." And: number of women cadres are working mostly in the fields of secondary
"It is the power of women which has supported the country's agriculture. . . . " importance." (1971 Report cited in note 20, pp. 9-10).
51
 normally do the cooking? the shopping? and looking after the education, women account for 80 percent of all teachers. 3j
children? Is it normal for a man to share in these tasks or not? Women make up 48 percent of the work force in the
In his speech on the 30th anniversary of the Korean Workers' economy as a whole. In culture and the arts, especially the
Party [October 9, 1975], President Kim ll Sung said that the latter, women play a major role, and account for a very high
food industry and kitchen utensils must be improved so as "to percentage of Merited Actors and Actresses, and of People's
free women completely from the heavy burdens of household Actors and Actresses. 32
chores." The implication of this is that women, not men, are The relationship between the Korean Workers' Party and
doing all or most of the work in the house. Is this so, and what women [is that] the women's movement is a very important
changes would you like to see in relations between men and component of the social revolution. The Korean Democratic
women as far as this is concerned? Women's Union is the transmission belt of the Party," and
Eleventh, we would like to hear your opinion on the family. President Kim I1 Sung has said that the situation is like the
We are rather surprised at the emphasis you place here, in a pear which has seed and flesh: the seed is the Party and the
society which claims to be socialist, on the family. 28 As you flesh is the [Women's] Union. The main aim of the [Women's]
know, both Marx and Engels, especially the latter, were highly Union is to defend the policies advanced by the Party and to
critical of the family as an institution and did not regard it as implement them thoroughly.
assisting socialism in any way. Yet here you put tremendous The inequality of women was abolished since President
stress on it: why? Kim I1 Sung provided women with the Law on the Equality
Twelfth, we would be very interested to know why women, of the Sexes on July 30,1946. ~ That is why women are provided
but not men, continue to wear traditional Korean dress. with the practical conditions so that there is no inequality in
Lastly, we would be interested to know if you have any social status between women and men. Tomorrow is the 31st
information on, or have published any material on Korean anniversary of the proclamation of the Law and so I regard
revolutionary heroines. this meeting as [especially] timely.
Well, as you referred to the report made by President Kim
Answers I1 Sung on the 30th anniversary [of the founding of the KWP],
We don't know if we can satisfy all your questions. We that is precisely the main a i m - - o f freeing women, especially
will try to answer the questions as they correlate to each other, from the burdens of the family. As you said correctly, the
giving priority to the most important ideas. We would like to problem of sexual inequality was already abolished." We have
stress that women take a very important role in economic life, traversed the democratic revolution, the socialist revolution
and socialist construction?6 Women's status has been tremen-
in politics, and in the realm of ideas, so you may get answers
to your questions about the participation of women in the
economy.
First of all, what is the woman question? It is to free
women from oppression and inequality, and provide women
with all the necessities of life. In our country women participate by Kim II Sung in 1971, when he said: "Especially in the countryside most
actively in the institutions of power. Women account for 33 of those who hold the post of some sort of 'chiefs' or go about with brief
cases under their arms are men" ("On the Revolutionization... of Women,"
percent of all deputies--ranging from the Supreme People's op. cit., p. 10). The information given us also seems to be contradicted by
Assembly to local government organs?9 data in Pak, "Women at Work," op. cit. which states that 30 percent of the
Women account for a very high number of cadres in the chairpersons of farm management boards are women. What does "leading
national economy--especially in agriculture, light industry, personnel" really mean: just chairpersons, or all members of the boards, or
something in between?
public health and education. In agriculture women account for
the majority of the leading personnel in, for example, 31. Pak, "Women at Work," says women "account for 70-80 percent of the
doctors and teachers"--a typically vague statistic. Cf. note 55 below re doctors.
management committees and other organs [of power]? ~ In
32. Different grades.
33. This is a standard (and depressing) formulation; see, e.g., Kim, "On the
Revolutionization . . . ", op. cit., p. 29: "I firmly believe that the Women's
Union, our Party's transmission belt, will faithfully implement its revolutionary
tasks so as to meet the Party's expectations with credit."
28. Article 63 of the 1972 Constitution reads: "Marriage and the family are 34. Full text of the law in Appendix below. Formulations of the kind "the
protected by the State. The State pays great attention to consolidating the Great Leader provided us w i t h . . . " are now obligatory. They mask the real
family, the cell of society." The family is also used to define the goal of a history of mass struggle by Korean women, on which, unfortunately, detailed
socialist society: "Our ideal i s . . . a society where all people live united in information is very scarce. It is interesting that an interview two Soviet writers
harmony as one big family" (Kim I1 Sung, "The Duty of Mothers in the had with the then head of the KDWU, Pak Chong Ae ]given as Pak Den Ae],
Education of Children," speech at the National Meeting of Mothers, Nov. 16, by all accounts a most remarkable person, in the late 1940s does not contain
1961, in Kim I1 Sung, On the Work of the Women's Union [Pyongyang, FLPH, a single mention of Kim II Sung's name (Aleksandr Gitovich and Boris Bursov,
1971 ], p. 4); c.f. Kim I1 Sung, "On the Duties of Educational Workers in the Up- Mi Videli Koreyu [We Saw Korea] [Leningrad, "Molodaya Gvardiya," 1948],
bringing of the Children and Youth," speech at a National Conference of Active pp. 36-38). Pak Chong Ae played a prominent role in the 1951 investigation
Educational Workers, April 25, 1961 [Pyongyang, FLPH, 1970], p. 6). But by the delegation of the WIDF (see note 8 above).
cf. Lee, op. cit., p. 28, for condemnations of "family-ism'; Shinn et al, Area The only Western correspondent to visit the DPRK between 1945 and the
Handbook, op. cit., chapter on the family. start of the Korean War was a woman, Anna Louise Strong, but her reports
29. The Supreme People's Assembly is roughly the equivalent of Congress contain only fragmentary information about the position of women. See Strong,
or Parliament--i.e., the highest large assembly elected by universal suffrage. Inside North Korea: An Eye-Witness Report (Montrose, California, n.d.
As in all Communist countries, this body is relatively powerless. According [1951?]. This is a revised edition of the 1949 edition of the same title; cf. the
to Pak Il Bun, op. cit., women made up the lower figure of 30 percent of all articles by Strong in Soviet Russia Today (New York), October and November,
deputies at local levels resulting from the elections in 1979. Cf. note 53 below 1947; February and December, 1948).
re the SPA. 35. We did not say this.
30. If so, this would seem to mark a big change from the situation described 36. Standard phrases for the successive stages since 1945.
52
dously strengthened, and we have come through the final stage have traditionally done, and as their natural duty.
of freeing women. So we regard this measure as one of the Q. Did you say "natural" ?
important measures finally to conclude the freedom of women. A. Yes. Well, we see the family as the cell of the society,
The food industry is only one aspect. We have to improve the and as such the family should be healthy and the people in our
bringing up of children and other measures so that women can country--both husbands and wives--have enjoyed the great
in practice be freed from all burdens. During the anti-Japanese care taken by President Kim I1 Sung and they know how
revolutionary armed struggle President Kim I1 Sung worked important the family is. Husbands go to their work where they
out the plan for bringing up children and shortly after Liberation are constantly kept educated. Women the same. So they know
[1945] he instructed that kindergartens and nurseries be built. how important the family is. Family work is done on a voluntary
Now this problem has been tremendously solved. basis. Such problems as you have raised do not arise. There
As you said, Marx and Engels paid attention to the is nobody in the family who refuses to do something that should
question of the family. Our policy is to bring up children in be done.
kindergartens and nurseries and this is a Communist policy.
We have a thirty-year history of bringing up children in this
way. There are 3,500,000 children being brought up in
kindergartens and nurseries, of which there are 60,000
throughout the country.
The most extreme form of exploitation of women,
President Kim I1 Sung has called children "the kings of
the country. ''37 [We have enacted] many policies on children: prostitution, has apparently (and I befieve prob-
for example, the 6th Session of the Supreme People's Assembly ably in fact) been eradicated; the same goes for
carried a decree on bringing up children; and at the 5th Congress concubinage. This marks a major advance over
of the KWP [1970] it was said that in order finally to solve both the past and South Korea. Similarly, it seems
the women question, we should press forward with the program
most unlikely that the crudest forms of violence
to bring up children [sic].~ We have a principle of setting up
kindergartens and nurseries, and near the shops where the against women, such as male goon squads pouring
mothers work. There is a nationwide network like a fishing human excrement over women workers, which
net. This means that there is no such problem as the one you do occur in the South, could possibly occur in
have raised about the division of labor in the family between the North.
husband and wife. There is cooperation between them. If the
husband comes home first, he should do something. We hope
that this question when explained will be clear. Children are
brought up at state expense. If there is pressing and ironing
[to be done] it goes to the laundries. The foodstuffs industry
has been developed, so food can be bought at any time. 3~ So Now, as to single women. There are categories of such
what is there left to do in the family? Perhaps clean the family? women: a) who have no children; b) who have lost a husband
Or pack [away] things used during the night?4~ Or cooking who dedicated his all to the country; c) who have lost sons and
rice. These things can be done in a cooperative way between daughters who died by dedicating their service to the country;
men and women. As regards cooking, this is a job women d) and some others. These women have the benefit of compre-
hensive social services; they are cared for by the shop where
they work. Also the neighborhood units take care of them.
Thus, they are respected by the state and socially--therefore,
they have virtually no worries at all. If they are disabled, they
37. We failed to ask what the significance of this monarcho-sexist formula
naturally get state support. When they are old, they go to an
might be (neither of us understood Korean). Nor did we ask if girls were called
"queens of the country." Old People's Single Home.
38. Kim I1 Sung is on the record (not subsequently modified, so far as ! know) As for wages, there is no difference. There is equal pay
to the effect that bringing up children is primarily a woman's task; e.g., "By for equal work. Women [in fact] have more benefits than men.
nature, it is up to the women to bring up children." ("The Communist Education Women with three children aged thirteen or less get eight hours'
and Upbringing of Children is an Honourable Revolutionary Duty of Nursery pay for six hours' work?' There are women's sanatoria, rest
School and Kindergarten Teachers," Address to the National Congress of
Nursery School and Kindergarten Teachers, Oct. 20, 1966, in Kim, On the
homes, maternity hospitals and children's hospitals.
Work of the Women's Union, op. cit., p. 52). Cf. Kim in 1961: "Mother has As for birth control, there is no such policy.
to bear the major responsibility for home education. Her responsibility is
greater than father's." ("The Duty of Mothers in the Education of Children"
[Nov. 16, 1961], ibid., p. 16).
39. In 1977 shops, including food shops, were open late on weekdays and
open on Sundays in the capital Pyongyang. On random visits to shops in the 41. The law also provides for 77 days paid pregnancy leave for w o m e n - - 3 5
city center, it seemed to me that women were doing about two-thirds of the days before giving birth and 42 days after (V. Andreyev and N. Beryozkin,
shopping for food (in early evening). There is reportedly an extensive system "How the DPRK Deals with Social Questions," FEA, no. 1, 1981, p. 64).
of food ordering from home and delivery to homes; there were some The phrase about 8 hours' pay for 6 hours work reportedly means that women
"take-aways" (in American English "take-out"). But I do not have enough who have 3 or more children only have to do 6 hours work, but get a full
evidence to be able to evaluate how widespread or effective these services day's pay anyway. Women with three or more children under the age of 12
really are. also only have to work a 5-day week (all others work 6-day weeks) (Pak,
40. So far as we could see and find out, most (perhaps all) Korean families "Women at Work"). As for wages: it is very hard to know exactly what
sleep on a thin mattress on the floor; all the "'bed" gear is taken up each proportion of total income they represent; I have guesstimated a figure of
morning and stored until it is put down again for the night. roughly half (see my "The North Korean Enigma," New Left Review, no. 127
53
Q. What does that mean? The state does not have a policy of men it is 30. 45
actively promoting it? Or is there no such thing? According to the law, citizens are entitled to get married at
A. The former--because there is no necessity for it in view the age of "full 17" [17 years and 9 months]. Before Liberation
of the labor force and the scale of the economy [sic] and the the average age [of marriage] was 20 to 25, but it has changed
speed of the development of the economy; the state needs a as the years have gone by.
bigger reserve work force. But there are some cases where About women in the Army. For women, like men, military
women are not well and in such cases that is another thing. 42 service is not obligatory. '~ Women are engaged in hospitals as
And if the woman suffers any hindrance to her social activities doctors and nurses, and in communications; and women in the
because she already has two or three children, if she wishes, Army can get married, but not so many do.
then an abortion may be carried out. 43 There is no abortion for Q. Is there an age limit--high and low--for women in the
unmarried women because women are educated in our country Army? And what is the highest rank currently held by a woman
in Communist morality, and they know how to live in our in the armed forces?
society. There is no such condition that unmarried women can A. Women generally do two or three years service. I don't
have an abortion. know what woman currently holds the highest rank in the armed
Q. What about if pregnancy was the result of rape? forces. But some women hold the position of head of a hospital
A. We have no such instances so far [women laugh], though with the rank of colonel. There are many such women.
there are many in South Korea. About the wedding ceremony. Both men and women have
Q. Does this mean there is no rape at all in the DPRK? People the right to select their counterpart of their own will, but in
in the West may find it very hard to believe this, and can you that case they may have the agreement of their parents.
put a date on the statement? Can you say that there has not Q. What does that mean? Would it be unusual not to ask?
been a single case of rape in the DPRK since the end of the A. It is normal [to ask]. But men and women have the right
Korean War [1953]? [not to ask]? 7 The ceremony is generally attended by about
A. So far as I know, there is no such instance, and I am forty twenty persons from the family and the work place,
years old. 44 As for the age of marriage: the average age [sc. congratulating them on their marriage. It is a very simple
until recently] ranged from 27 to 28 because women and men ceremony.
graduate from colleges and universities between the ages of 23 In the past there were, apparently, cases where parents had
and 24. After graduation they work for two or three years, so the right to decide, instead of the children; they were influenced
naturally they get married about the age of 27 to 28. But these by Confucian ideas. These disappeared soon after Liberation .48
days we find it is even later--in the case of women the average Q. Do parents have any civil rights over their children after
age is 29; that is, they work more after graduation. And for the age of "full 17"?
A. According to the law, anyone can get married at the age
of full 17, but in practice they get married between 29 and 30.
The children who get married have an independent position,
so I don't think such a question as you have raised about parents
[1981], and "The North Korean Model," World Development, Vol. 9, no. exercising civil rights over their children arises; but parents
9/10 [1981]): i.e., a differential of 20 percent in male: female wages would
translate into a differential of only 10 percent in total income. Even the
well-informed Soviet scholars Andreyev and Beryozkin imply some difficulty
over this problem (see note 26 to their article, op. cit. above, p. 60). Cf. note
56 below.
42. In 1980 an American Friends Service Committee delegation was told that 45. The North Korean fisherman cited in note 44 said that a marriage could
no contraceptives were available (AFSC, Korea Report, no. 9, Feb. 1981, p. not be registered if the bride's age was below 26 and the bridegroom's below
3). On the other hand, in 1979 a correspondent for AP, Edith Lederer, reported 30 (p. 21). Edith Lederer was told that people did not "usually" marry until
that she was told by a member of the Central Committee of the KDWU, Kang they were 24-25 years old (op. cit., p. 69). In 1971 Kim I1 Sung told the
Chun-kum, that intrauterine devices were available. Birth-control pills, she KDWU: "Women on their part must strive to learn more and work more for
was told, were discouraged "because of possible long-term side-effects," i.e., the Party and the revolution even if their marriage is delayed a b i t . . . "("On
it was not clear if they were sometimes available (Edith Lederer, "Love and the Revolutionization . . . . " op. cit., p. 10).
Marriage," AP report dated May 6, 1979, in: Korea Herald. "Pyongyang 46. This is the official position. It is impossible to be sure. Western sources
Pingpong Diplomacy"--What Achieved and Not Achieved (Seoul, Korea insist that military service is compulsory. My own feeling after being in the
Herald, 1979), p. 69). Like most visitors to the DPRK, I got the impression DPRK is that it may be, but it is also possible that social pressures are so
(as suggested by our KDWU interlocutors) that there was a labor shortage. intense that it does not have to be: no one would dream of not volunteering.
But a recent (and well-informed) Soviet source states flatly that "the country Western and South Korean sources suggest that men are not allowed to marry
has a reserve of labour" (Glebova and Mikheyev, FEA, op. cit., p. 89). Some during military service, though full-time professional servicemen (and
reports have suggested that women are given special awards for having six or presumably servicewomen) can.
more children. 47. Edith Lederer was given a slightly different angle: she was told that young
43. Edith Lederer was told by the director of the Pyongyang university hospital people do (by implication always) ask their parents for permission (Lederer,
that abortions "are sometimes performed" but was not told under what op. cit., p. 68). The North Korean fisherman cited in note 44 says the state
circumstances they were permitted (Lederer, op. cit., p. 69). allocates some food and alcohol for a wedding celebration, but limits
44. We failed to ask the necessary follow-up questions: 1)Would our "attendants" (meaning not clear--J.H.) to five (p. 21).
interlocutor know if such a thing had happened? 2) If there had been a rape, 48. This version of events, apart from being inherently rather hard to believe,
and she knew about it, would she be allowed to tell us, if official policy lays also clashes with Kim II Sung's repeated stress on the long-term nature of the
it down "that there is no such thing in the DPRK." Although there might be struggle to eradicate old ideas. For example: "The material conditions of sociey
no way of evaluating with certainty the answer to these questions, especially determine the consciousness of man, and the latter changes slower than the
the second one, I think we should still have asked them. The Seoul magazine former." ("On the Duties of Educational Workers in the Upbringing of the
Vantage Point carded a text of an interview with a North Korean fisherman Children and Youth," 1961, p. 2). Cf. his remarks to the KDWU in 1971 on
who stayed in the South in 1978, Oh Ri-sop, who said he had heard of two the survival of old ideas: "There are some delinquent children n o w a d a y s . . .
cases of rape while he was in Nampo City and that the culprits had been [T]hey are mostly the children of unrevolutionized mothers." (sic) ("On the
executed in public (VP, Vol. 1, no. 5, p. 21). Revolutionization... , " p. 4).
54
still feel obliged to help children with wedding ceremonies and Well, the women's movement has a history of fifty years.
suchlike. Women played a great role in the Anti-Japanese Women's
Let me add something about property status. We underwent Association during the anti-Japanese armed struggle and
the war, which destroyed everything. Here there are no rich participated in armed struggle like men. 52
people or poor people; there are no people with more, or less, There are many cases of women playing distinguished
property. Everyone is more or less the same. merited roles.
As for divorce, there are very few cases. It is allowed only I hope my answers could satisfy.
under the following circumstances: (a) health conditionsmthat
the family cannot exist on health conditions. Supplementary Questions
Q. What does that mean? Q. You have given us the figure of 33 percent of all deputies
A. That they cannot have a sexual life. The other case
at all levels, but could you break this down between upper and
(b) would be referred to a court and the court may approve.49
lower echelons? For example, what percentage of the members
As for remarriage: women who have lost husbands through
of the Supreme People's Assembly are women?
illness can get remarried and the court [sc. the law?--J.H.]
A. The SPA has 541 members, of whom 112 are women. 53
allows them to do so. But old women, since all conditions are
Q. You gave us the figure of 80 percent of all teachers being
provided by the state, they have no worries. Such cases do not
women, but again, can you break this down? What are the
arise very frequently. If a woman wants to, she would be
percentages for universities, on the one hand, and schools, on
allowed. She has no inconvenience [sc. no obstacle is placed
the other?
in her w a y ? - - J . H . ] . She does not feel so [sic].
A. The figures are not available, I am sorry. ~ But in
There are no cases of women who have divorces from their
Pyongyang, for example, at the Institute of Light Industry, the
husbands and want to get married again? ~
Rector is a woman, and at the Institute for Foreign Languages
Q. It will be difficult for people in the West to believe that. both the Rector and the Vice-Rector are women. At Pyongyang
Can you put a time schedule on this?
A. There were very few divorces in the past. Since all
conditions are provided, and society is developing, [there are
no cases of this].
An under-age woman who wants to get married cannot. 52. At this point our interlocutor launched into a ritualistic recital of current
There are no instances of this here. mythology about the alleged role of Kim B Sung's mother, Kang Ban Sok,
setting up the first radical women's organization in 1926. There is no
And about women's traditional dress. This is four or five independent evidence that anything of the sort occurred. The role of Kim II
thousand years old, and it suits women very well, because it Sung's mother has tended to be inflated (and invented) roughly in tandem with
is convenient to work in, ~' and it suits the natural characteristics the mythologization of the past of Kim himself. Kang Ban Sok is called
as far as women are concerned and there is a very strong love "Mother of Korea" while Kim I1 Sung's first wife (and the mother o f
heir-designate Kim Jong I1), Kim Jong Suk, is called "Mother of Revolution."
for the dress by women. This is why women wear traditional
So far as can be ascertained, Kim Jong Suk did indeed play an active role in
national dress. But this does not mean that this is the only the anti-Japanese struggle. When I asked about her in front of a picture of her
kind. So the dresses are chosen by women according to the in the Museum of the Revolution in Pyongyang I was first told: "She gave her
conditions, the necessity of life. And women like to wear it, all for the Great Leader." When I asked what that meant, I was told (after
especially when they receive such distinguished visitors as discussion between officials): "She even dried the Great Leader's wet clothes
in her bosom."
today--and I believe that you find it very beautiful.
53. Pak U Bun states that the percentage of women in the SPA resulting from
Men have a traditional national dress, but this we feel is not the 1978 election was 20.8 ("Women at Work"). Combining this figure with
suitable for labor and is inconvenient to the activities that men the one given for women in the local assemblies (cf. note 29 above), there
do. So men have different clothes. was a slight decline in the percentage of women in all assemblies in the late
1970s. The Australian Myra Roper, who visited the DPRK in the early 1970s,
states .that 25% of the SPA were women then. If so, then the 1977 figures
indicate a decline in women's representation. However the reliability of
Roper's data is severely undermined by the fact that she can write in the same
paragraph that"Kim, like Mao, is a f e m i n i s t . . . "(Myra Roper, " D P R K - - T h e
49. There was no follow-up on this. The criterion of venereal disease Phoenix Country," Eastern Horizon [Hong Kong], Vol. 13, no. 5 (1974), p.
mentioned by another official was not mentioned here. 60). So far as I can make out, there is currently one woman in the DPRK
50. The same sort of bland reply was given to Edith Lederer about divorce cabinet, Minister of Finance Yun Gi Jong. There is (or was until very recently)
in general: "We can hardly find divorced couples because young couples marry one woman Secretary of the Central Committee of the KWP. The most
according to their own choice so there can be no quarrel between them." important woman in the country is probably Kim Song Ae, the head of the
(Lederer, p. 70). According to this argument, there should hardly be any K D W U - - a n d the wife of Kim I1 Sung. The fact that the DPRK refuses to
divorces in the USA or Britain. What may/must be different is the degree of release any information on women's participation in the KWP and in its leading
social pressure exerted against divorce--and, perhaps, the lessening of bodies bodes ill for women having a leading role in them. An examination of
expectation via the diminished chance of divorce and, especially for women, the Central Committee in 1980 made it appear that about 4 percent of that
the virtual impossibility of starting a new life, including a new sexual body was made up of women.
relationship, after divorce. In an earlier discussion with a male official, we 54. The figures for teachers probably include kindergarten workers, almost
indicated that the only way we could understand that divorces requested by all of whom are women. In a discussion later the same day at Kim I1 Sung
women were so low or non-existent was due to the enormous social pressures University, Pyongyang, the country's top university, we were told that 10
against women; in the end the official said, in effect, that no male in the DPRK percent of the teachers there were women and 25-30 percent of the students,
would marry a divorced woman whose husband was still alive. In 1961 Kim varying according to faculty. The group which hosted us there, made up of
I1 Sung reported that some men wanted to divorce wives who had not produced eight staff and students (in rigidly hierarchical relationships to each other),
sons. Kim called this "immoral." (Kim, "The Duty of Mothers . . . . " op. was exclusively male--but then so was our group of two. The AFSC delegation
cit., p. 14). reported that in 1980 20 percent of those with higher education were women
51. This is very dubious; it seemed to me most unsuited to work in. Reports (Korean Report, op. cit. p. 4): a major advance over the situation in 1961
on whether it is even comfortable for non-work vary depending on whom one when Kim II Sung said that no woman had yet received a doctorate (Kim,
is talking with. "The Duty of M o t h e r s . . . " op. cit., p. 31).
55
Normal College, the Kim Hyung Jik [Kim I1 Sung's tions carried out in the country have provided conditions for
f a t h e r m J . H . ] Normal College, the Rector is a woman. In freeing women from inequality of political, economic, cultural
colleges, polytechnics and universities, there are many women and family life, which they had suffered. With a view to
rectors and many chairs and faculties are filled by women. liquidating the remnants of Japanese colonial rule, reforming
Q. You have given us the figure for women as a percentage the old feudalistic relationship between man and woman and
of the total work force, and some indication of where they enabling women to take part in all fields of cultural, social and
make up the majority of the labor force," and you have also political life, the Provisional People's Committee of North
stated that there is equal pay for equal work. But it would be Korea decides:
interesting to know what is the average ratio of women's pay Article 1. Women shall have equal rights with men in all
compared to men's pay throughout the economy as a whole. realms of state, economic, cultural, social and political life.
A. There is no difference. Article 2. Women shall be on a par with men in the right
Q. But from what you have said, it is obvious there are more to elect or to be elected in the local state organs or in the
women in agriculture and more men, for example, in heavy highest state organ.
industry. It is also clear that wages are not the same in all Article 3. W o m e n shall have equal right with men in work
sectors of the economy and for all jobs. Therefore, it is clear and the rights to equal pay, social insurance and education.
that not all women are earning the same wages as all men. Article 4. Women shall have the right to free marriage
What are the averages for the whole economy? like men. Unfree, forced marriage without consent of the
A. I am sorry, I do not know in detail. I agree with you that contracting parties is prohibited.
there are differences between different occupations, and some Article 5. When conjugal relations get into trouble and
fields have more men and therefore there must be a difference cannot be continued any longer, women, too, are entitled to
[in the average wage]. ~ ,~ free divorce on an equal footing with men. A mother shall be
allowed to sue her divorced husband for the cost of bringing
up children. The suits for divorce and children's nursing
Appendix expenses shall be dealt with by the People's Court.
Article 6. The age of marriage shall be full 17 or above
THE LAW ON EQUALITY OF THE SEXES for woman and full 18 or above for man.
IN NORTH KOREA Article 7. Polygamy, a hereditary custom based on
(July 30, 1946) medieval, feudalistic relations, and the evil practices of
infringing upon the rights of women, such as selling and buying
For 36 years Korean women had been subject to incessant girls as wives or concubines, shall be hereafter prohibited.
insult and cruel exploitation by Japanese imperialism. They Both licensed and unlicensed prostitution, and kisaeng-girl
had neither political nor economic right, and were denied to keeping system (kisaeng call-office and kisaeng school) shall
participate in cultural, social or political life. Medieval, be prohibited. Those who violate this shall be punished by law.
feudalistic family relationship accentuated the political and Article 8. Women shall have the right of succession to
economic oppression of women. Maltreatment, insult and the property including land like men and, when divorced, the
illiteracy were the lot the masses of the Korean working women right to distribution of property including land.
had to suffer. The Red Army emancipated north Korea from Article 9. With the proclamation of this law, the laws and
the Japanese colonial yoke, and this brought about a change rules of Japanese imperialism with regard to the Korean
in the social position of women. Various democratic reforma- women's right are annulled.
This law shall become effective as from the day of its
promulgation.

Source: On the Socialist Constitution of the Democratic People's Republic of

Korea (Pyongyang, FLPH, 1975), pp. 312-313.
55. Roper states that 75 percent of doctors were women in the early 1970s
(Roper, op. cit., p. 60). This may be true, but two qualifications are in order:
1) the DPRK definition of "doctor" is not clear; 2)in most Communist
countries the increased access of women to such jobs can be--and often
is--accompanied by a downgrading of the job in both pay and status. In 1978
Kim lamentedrthe absence of women in finance and banking in rather strong
terms: "At present women make up nearly half the labour force in [the]
economy. But their number in the financial and banking establishments is not
large. This shows that our functionaries are not yeat clear of the tendency to
despise women. There is no reason why women are unfit to work in the
financial and banking institutions. Rather, they can work better [sic]than men. The Bulletin is indexed in The Alternative Press Index, The
From now on these institutions should take on a large number of women." Left Index, International Development Index, International
("Let Us Step Up Socialist Construction by Effective Financial Management," Development Abstracts, Sage Abstracts, Social Science Cita-
speech at the National Meeting of Financial and Bank Workers, Dec. 23, tion Index, Bibliography of Asian Studies, IBZ (lnternationale
1978, PyongyangTimes, Dec. 30, 1978). The tone of Kim's remarks is both Bibliographie der Zeitschriften Literatur), IBR (International
unmistakably dirigiste and somehwat magical.
56. The fact that there is not yet equal pay is clearly, if obliquely, stated by Bibliography of Book Reviews), and Political Science
Pak I1 Bun, who writes: "There is a growing tendency for equal pay for men Abstracts. Microforms of past issues are available from
and women for the sake of real equality of the sexed [sc. sexes]" ("Women University Microfilms International (300 N. Zeeb Road, Ann
at Work," op. cit.). This remark can sit right alongside the statement that Arbor, MI 48106, USA).
"Korean women have been under the equal wage system for 40 years." In
brief, they have been under an "equal wage system" (i.e., a system whose
proclaimed target is equal wages) under which wages are not yet equal.
56