Environmental Biology of Fishes 41: 121-125,1994.
O 1994 Kluwer Academic Publishers. Printed in the Netherlands
An interview with Eugenie Clark
Eugene K. Balon
Institute of Ichthyology and Department of Zoology, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario NIG2W1, Canada
Eugenie Clark who now lives in Bethesda, U.S.A. was interviewed at my residence near Guelph on 15 Febru-
ary 1993. The interview provides some revealing insights into the development of Genie's personality.
EB = Eugene Balon Genie = Eugenie Clark
EB: Many lifetime contributions to science are en- peering into the fish tanks, especially the big tank
couraged and inspired by personal relationships that held the sharks (sand tiger sharks) in water
and friendships rarely identified or explained in slightly murky green, where I could press my face
most short biographies. Having just finished com- against the glass by hanging over the railing. I
piling an account of your 'life and work' for this vol- couldn't see the back or sides of the tank and I pre-
ume, am left with some unanswered questions to tended I was on the sea bottom with sharks swim-
complete the historical record. Would you allow ming around me. I thought the sharks were beauti-
me, therefore, some more personal questions as ful, graceful, and magnificent. It was my dream to
concerns their effects on your work, choice of taxa, learn more about them and all the other beautiful
location of study, etc.? The questions are not meant and wondrous smaller fish.
to be condescending but, in view of this volume's I convinced by mother to drop me off in the
purpose, of quite some interest to communicate to aquarium in the morning and pick me up at noon
others. Let us start with a conventional one: What is instead of sitting behind her work counter at the
the most memorable event from your childhood? Club. It became our regular Saturday routine. On
rainy days the bums from Battery Park came into
Genie: At the age of nine I visited the old New York the free Aquarium and I made friends with them.
Aquarium at Battery Park on the southwestern end Soon they came in to meet me on sunny Saturdays
of Manhattan. My mother worked half a day on Sat- and I would tell them what I had learned from read-
urdays at the nearby Downtown Athletic Club tak- ing about the different fishes we watched together
ing care of the cigar, cigarette, magazine and news- alive. On Saturday afternoons my mother took me
paper stand in the lobby of this tall building. I used to nearby aquarium supply stores and soon I had
to sit behind the counter all morning until she was aquariums in my bedroom at home with my own liv-
free. Then we went to lunch at a Japanese restaurant ing pet jewel fishes - but no sharks, of course. My
'Fuji' where the owner (who fell in love with my dream to be underwater with sharks and swim with
mother and later became my stepfather) showered fishes came many years later. [Note: I wrote about
me with presents and exotic gourmet dishes. After the above in more detail in the first chapter of Lady
lunch was treat time when I had the undivided at- With a Spear and Ann McGovern rewrote it for chil-
tention of my mother and she suggested various dren in the first chapter of Shark Lady.]
things we could do, the movies, the zoo, shopping I have mixed feelings about keeping fishes in
etc. But when she took me to the aquarium I was glass 'cages' today but I realize my exposure to this
'hooked' on fishes. Every Saturday afternoon I as a child set the course for my life.
wanted to watch the fishes. Her attention span was
not as long as mine and I couldn't get enough of EB: You are now retired but still active, diving and
publishing. Can you identify a person who shaped school to start graduate studies, before I was qual-
your early career and especially your attitude to sci- ified for grants to study fishes. In 19484950 I made
ence, or who most affected your life and work? three grant applications as I was finishing my Ph.D.
on the genetics and behavior of freshwater poeciliid
Genie: When I was a child, William Beebe was my fishes: to the Atomic Energy Commission to study
hero. I loved reading his books: Jungle Days, Edge sperm physiology and competition in fishes; to the
of the Jungle, Galapagos: Worlds End, but above all Pacific Science Board to study poisonous plectog-
his books and National Geographic articles about nath fishes in Micronesia; and for a Fulbright Schol-
diving under the sea - walking on the sea bottom arship to study plectognath fishes in the Red Sea
wearing a diving helmet set on his shoulders con- where I first used SCUBA. All three grants were
nected to a hose that pumped air from a boat, and approved and these field and laboratory studies
diving deep into the sea in a bathysphere. I loved the combining my love for studying fishes and swim-
way he wrote about animals and his great under- ming, together with my basic experiences studying
standing about them. fishes under great teachers (Breder, Myron Gor-
My biology teachers and my family encouraged don, Lester Aronson) at the American Museum of
my enthusiasm for fishes even though my family Natural History in New York, launched my career
suggested I also study typing so that I might get a job in ichthyology.
as secretary to someone like William Beebe. They
were convinced I could never make a living study- EB: As a young woman scientist you joined a male-
ing fishes. But they loved me and wanted me to be dominated profession. Can you recall some rele-
happy so they bought me the books I wanted and vant details?
fishes for my aquarium and enjoyed my fascinating
'hobby' themselves, thinking this was enriching my Genie: Betty Kamp and I were the first women stu-
childhood, keeping me off the streets, and would dents in graduate school at Scripps Institute of
evolve into something more practical as a way of life Oceanography (1946). The great oceanographer,
and earning a living. Harold Sverdrup was the Director. He was char-
After majoring in Zoology at Hunter College I ming and gallant but did not allow Betty and me to
started graduate school with Dr. Charles M. Breder go on overnight trips in our oceanography class. All
who became my mentor, my greatest inspiration as day trips were OK. So we missed the trips on the
a teacher and confidant in ichthyology. He saw high seas and to the Galapagos but in all other ma-
nothing wrong about a young woman wanting to jor aspects we were treated as equals. We had to
spend her life studying fishes. I dedicated my sec- work extra hard, expecially on field trips, to prove
ond book, The Lady and the Sharks, to him (the first we could keep up with males; except with Carl
was dedicated to my mother and stepfather). In the Hubbs, who was married to Laura, and took it for
preface to the second edition of this book (publish- granted that females could carry the same loads as
ed by the Mote Marine Laboratory) I express in de- males and do the cooking and dishwashing as well.
tail what it meant to me and my children to know It amused me that when I did do some of the things
this brilliant ichthyologist, whose life was devoted (e.g. diving in caves with 'sleeping' sharks) consid-
to studying the behavior, morphology and ecology ered 'macho male accomplishments' that I was giv-
of fishes. He introduced me to plectognath fishes. en more credit than males for doing the same thing
they did. It helped to balance some of the prejudices
EB: How did you come to specialize in research on against females.
fishes? When I applied to graduate school at Columbia
University, the Chairman of the Zoology Depart-
Genie: When I graduated, World War I1 had started ment (a famous geneticist) told me, 'Well, I guess
and there was a shortage of chemists. I worked four we could take you but to be honest, I can tell by
and a half years as a chemist, while going to night looking at you, if you do finish you will probably get
married, have a bunch of kids, and never do any- 'You make good drawings', Breder commented,
thing in science after we have invested our time and 'Why don't you look at a pinch of that 'fat?' under a
money in you'. I went instead to NYU where the microscope in a drop of sea water?' It was swarming
Chairman, Harry Charipper, welcomed enthusias- with spermatozoa. I discovered where the 'males'
tic zoologists, regardless of sex and where I had the were, as Dr. Breder continued to be my teacher in
good fortune to come under the magical wing of his gentle way that pointed out my errors, as always,
Charles Breder and the wonderful professors and in a most complimentary way that made me feel
students there, so many of whom became part of my good while still learning. His great insight into the
lifelong friends in ichthyology. I took William King ways of fishes and his humble informal way of
Gregory's great course in the evolution of verte- teaching and encouraging me always touched me. I
brates, as a special student, and that was enough of worshipped him.
Columbia University for me. I was once called to examine a sea monster, a
strange creature that washed up on an out of the
EB: Can you remember any unpleasant events way sand spit. It proved to be a rare beaked whale,
which occurred because you were a female in com- the only one of its kind ever reported from the Gulf
petition with males? of Mexico. Dr. John Moore at the Smithsonian
identified it from photos I sent him of the skeleton
Genie: I already answered this but might add that we were cleaning and asked if I'd give the rare spec-
early in life, perhaps because of my intense desire to imen to the Smithsonian. The only thing missing
be an ichthyologist, I somehow sensed that it was was the pair of enlarged ivory teeth. We searched in
not wise to ever play up my role as a female or to the sand in vain, then advertised in the local news-
encourage flirtations, no matter how attractive, paper for them and learned a fisherman had found
with people I studied fishes with. It made it easier them and given them to his 12 year old son who con-
and less complicated to concentrate on my desire to sidered them the greatest treasure in his collection
learn more about fishes while keeping the respect of of animal oddities in what his parents (they lived in
my colleagues. To take advantage of my female- a crowded trailer) called their son's 'Junkorama'. I
ness, would be disrespectful to the great men I have asked the boy to bring in the teeth so I could pho-
held in awe and loved as ichthyologists. Perhaps I tograph them. Dr. Moore had authorized me to try
was just lucky that in my formative years my con- to buy them for any reasonable (even unreasona-
suming love of ichthyology did not coincide with an ble) sum of money so the Smithsonian could have
ichthyologist as the great love of my life. the complete skeleton.
I showed the boy and his parents around our
EB: On the other hand, which are the most touching Cape Haze Marine Lab and explained the work we
moments you remember from your early days as a did studying marine life and showed him the skele-
scientist? ton of the beaked whale we had carefully cleaned -
complete except for the pair of ivory teeth. He told
Genie: When Dr. Breder came to visit me in Pla- me how much he loved and was fascinated by all the
cida, Florida (1955) to see how I was coming along strange animals and how delighted he was to own
as 'Executive Director' of the tiny, new Cape Haze the rare teeth I had photographed. With some mis-
Marine Lab and I asked him about this strange little givings I told him about the offer from Dr. Moore
grouper colony I found where all the individuals and asked if he would consider selling them and
were females, their bellies swollen with ovulated what he would charge.
eggs and no males were around to fertilize them. I He conferred with his parents, then came back to
showed him a female, I had just dissected, with a big me. 'I don't want to sell them' he stated firmly 'but
bilobed ovary full of eggs, some oozing out of the I'd like to donate them to science'. He put the 2 pre-
oviduct. The ovary had a white wavy band around it cious treasures in my hands and smiled proudly as
which on my drawing I labelled 'fat?'. he left with his parents.
Dr. Moore was as touched as I was and told me to Genie: Not really. I don't consider any of my pub-
find out if there was anything they might have in lished books or articles to be significant contribu-
surplus at the Smithsonian that the boy might like to tions to human knowledge. In total my popular and
have as an exchange, 'thank-you' gift. There was no scientific articles have helped dispel some of the
hesitation when I phoned the boy. 'I'd like to have a myths about sharks that are so unfair to sharks, add-
grizzly bear skin' and Dr. Moore saw to it that a skin ed a piece to the puzzle here and there towards our
was soon hanging in the Junkorama. ultimate understanding about fishes, and inspired
young people, especially girls, to study sciences.
EB: Did some papers you co-authored reflect more
than a working relationship? EB: Scientists often dream, at least I do, about pub-
lishing a widely read popular book, a bestseller,
Genie: Yes, deep friendship and on my part love which would reveal also to the non-scientists the ex-
and admiration for many of my co-authors. Only citement and joy of our work. What did you do
once did I co-author a paper with a scientist who about such dreams?
was not an ichthyologist and get involved to a point
where we became engaged. I was recently divorced Genie: I feel my first book Lady with a Spear did
from a handsome pilot, my first great love affair and this in a way that has been very satisfying. I did not
I thought, the only one of my life. So I decided I dream it would be as successful as it was but was
should make an intelligent second marriage with especially pleased that, after I was criticized for ac-
someone I admired. Then I met the second great cepting a contract that would 'prostitute science7,it
love of my life who ultimately became the father of got good reviews and is generally respected.
my four children. I broke off the calculated engage-
ment, probably best for both parties. My co-author EB: Did you ever have contemplative ideas which
went on to be very successful in his own field of sci- go far beyond ichthyology? Did you join any philo-
ence, winning a Noble Prize, and took a wife who sophical school?
wasn't absorbed in looking at fish.
Genie: No, not like you, Eugene. I'm a simple ich-
EB: You published numerous scientific papers and thyologist who tries to get the facts straight, analyze
books. Which of these are your absolute favorites? my data as carefully as I can but I don't get philo-
sophical. Love fish. Love sharks. Keep the water
Genie: My first book because it was easy (based in and their habitats as clean and protected as possi-
large part on letters to my family which they fruit- ble.
fully saved) and was a joy to reminisce the delightful
experience of my formative years as an ichthyolo- EB: If it were possible to rewind the tape of life,
gist, and because it surprisingly made a lot of mon- which part would you choose to replay once, or over
ey, was a Book-of-the-Monthselection, and I could and over again?
dedicate it to my mother and stepfather. My first
major scientific article (on plectognath fishes) to- Genie: None. What's done is done. I don't like repe-
gether with Dr. Breder in 1947.My paper on instru- titions. A repetition is never as fresh and delightful
mental conditioning of sharks in Science (1959) be- as the first time. It's fun to write about it but not to
cause it showed that sharks were not stupid, mind- replay any part. There is still so much to learn and
less, man-eaters. experience. Even at 71. I look forward to my next
experience. And time is getting short. I don't want
EB: I presume that those you mentioned contrib- to replay any one part of it. So much of it has been
uted significantly to human knowledge. Would you wonderful to live through. Thinking about it is
mind explaining in what way? enough and there is not enough time for all of this. It
is almost more fun to discuss and analyze the past
with friends and family. To rehash it exactly as it Genie: Sure. I can't imagine a better life. But it's not
was, no thanks. I'd rather think ahead even to death as easy as it seems to many. There's a lot of hard
and the remote possibility of 'life' after death. work, many years of schooling, but it is worth it.
Wouldn't that be a surprise? It's tantalizing but how Don't give up the full life - marriage, kids, for sci-
could heaven be happy with 4 ex-husbands? And ence. You can have it all if you choose a mate that is
would there be whale sharks to ride? And how can equally busy and not jealous of your work.
you ever recapture the thrill of the first time.
EB: Maybe you would like to add and answer some
EB: In light of what you have just said, are you con- important questions I failed to ask?
tent with most of your life or would you like, given
the opportunity, to edit some parts out and add Genie: No, I'm bushed.
some new parts?
EB: Thank you most cordially for your delightful
Genie: I wouldn't want to change any of it. cooperation.
EB: Would you advise young women to become ich- Genie:Any egotist would cooperate for such a com-
thyologists? plimentary cause.
