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“We are confronted with a historic choice between falling
backwards into nationalism, misogyny, homophobia, and
xenophobia; or moving forward as a multicultural society
built on mutual respect, equality, and the widest possible
participation in shaping better social arrangements. Kim
and del Prado, in a gentle, loving tone that encourages
honesty, empathy, and risk-taking, provide much-needed
counsel as well as attainable steps that will greatly help us
transcend what divides us, grow fulfilling personal
relationships, and advance the struggle for social justice.
It’s Time to Talk (and Listen) is extremely wise and entirely
timely.”
—Terry A. Kupers, MD, MSP, professor emeritus in
the department of psychology at The Wright
Institute in Berkeley, CA, and author of Solitary

“It’s Time to Talk (and Listen) deals with clashes in cultural

values, incivility, interpersonal conflicts, and communication
difficulties. The authors, Anatasia Kim and Alicia del Prado,
have written an impressive guide to overcoming the
dilemmas experienced by people in an increasingly diverse
and varied environment. Through personal examples, case
studies, and cognitive behavioral notions, they outline tools
to enhance one’s well-being and functioning. Step-by-step
exercises and lessons are presented that clearly outline a
systematic way to help oneself. The book is straightforward,
engaging, and sensible. It has the potential for improving
the lives of those who want to more effectively function in
our diverse society.”
—Stanley Sue, PhD, distinguished professor emeritus
at Palo Alto University, and distinguished professor
emeritus at University of California, Davis
“At a time when our country is more polarized than ever,
with deeply felt traumas, fears, and pain preventing us
from empathizing with opposing viewpoints, Anatasia Kim
and Alicia del Prado’s intentional approach to bridging these
divides is vital. In It’s Time to Talk (and Listen), the authors
rightly emphasize the need to attend to one’s own
emotional reactions, and to allow for an openness to
another’s truth. With this, they bring hope for a more just,
less divided, and more authentically connected society.”
—Monika Parikh, MA, MPA, BS, cofounder and
board president of Partnerships for Trauma Recovery

“This is a must-read for anyone wanting to have productive

conversations about culture and diversity. Kim and del
Prado provide a step-by-step approach to engaging in
‘constructive conversations,’ using the Kim Constructive
Conversations Model. This book is perfect for anyone who
has struggled to manage awkward, possibly offensive
comments at the dinner table, on the airplane, or in the
office. A superb and timely contribution given the current
sociopolitical climate.”
—Claytie Davis III, PhD, ABPP, director of training
at the University of California, Berkeley, and chair-
elect of the Association of Psychology Postdoctoral
and Internship Centers (APPIC)

“It was a pleasure to read this timely book, in which Kim

and del Prado provide a thoughtful and practical framework
for respectful, value-driven, and compassionate
conversations about culture, diversity, oppression, and
privilege. Blending theory, research, and engaging
vignettes, the authors delineate a concrete and self-
reflective approach for constructive dialogue that empowers
us to participate in an authentic manner with diverse others
about salient yet divisive topics. Doing so will deepen our
understanding of other people, encourage us to embrace
differences, facilitate individual and collective healing, foster
genuine and close relationships, and lay the groundwork for
greater equity and inclusivity.”
—Nadine J. Kaslow, PhD, ABPP, professor and chief
psychologist at Emory University School of Medicine,
and past president of the American Psychological
Association

“Kim and del Prado are to be commended for their book,

which represents the best of George Miller’s call to ‘give
psychology away.’ They have provided a practical, step-by-
step guide to difficult conversations regarding culture, race,
and ethnicity. Using key principles derived from
multicultural psychology, they have created a highly
accessible guide grounded in the exploration of each user’s
values, motives, and needs. This book should be studied by
anyone who is interested in promoting constructive
dialogues with coworkers, friends, acquaintances, and
neighbors on potentially divisive topics. It is a very timely
contribution given the current schisms within our society.”
—Frederick Leong, PhD, professor in the
department of psychology and psychiatry, and
director of the consortium for multicultural
psychology research at Michigan State University

“Bravo to Kim and del Prado for clearly laying out pragmatic
steps to navigate difficult conversations. This is a very
timely book given the current sociopolitical context.… Their
model gives us hope that we can cross multiple divides to
see the humanity in others.”
 —Steven R. Lopez, PhD, professor in the
department of psychology and social work at the
University of Southern California

“I admire and respect the intentions behind Anatasia Kim

and Alicia del Prado’s It’s Time to Talk (and Listen).
Constructive conversations about difficult topics are, by
definition, very hard to have. Kim and del Prado, in my
opinion, treat the ability to have such conversations as a
skill that can be learned. The Kim Constructive
Conversations Model revolves around the topics of culture
and diversity, but the actual model can also be applied
broadly to other challenging topics—subjects that we often
avoid. Perhaps the most important takeaway for me, after
reading this text, was the authors’ heartfelt belief that we
can make difficult and painful situations better, especially
surrounding diverging views on culture and diversity. And
we can do this by following a model of sorts, one that is
grounded in our own values and integrity. Thank you
Anatasia and Alicia, for sharing your thoughts, suggested
instruction, and explicit bias that we can all improve the
way we deal with difficult topics.”
—David M. Lechuga, PhD, UCLA-trained clinical
psychologist, former president of the California
Psychological Association (CPA) and the Hispanic
Neuropsychological Society, and current chair of the
CPA’s Division of Neuropsychology

“Kim and del Prado create a safe space to examine one’s

authentic self without first having to apologize for gender,
ethnicity, identity, cultural norms, or economic status. In
doing so, the reader is invited to journey inward, and peel
away layers of self by identifying intentions, exposing
obstacles, and clarifying principles that inform how we act
on or react to conversations that may make us
uncomfortable. It is through the examination of the
nuanced self, that the authors are then able to guide the
reader on a path to constructive communication with
others.”
—Irene St. Roseman, EdD, cofounder/head of
school, Oxford Day Academy

“For too long, dialogues on multicultural issues turn to

debates, trying to prove why each person is right in their
respective positions. What I love most about Kim and del
Prado’s book is the use of their own lives to illustrate their
eight-step approach, while situating ALL readers to examine
our own ‘stuff’ as we attempt to honor ourselves while
listening to others. The book is practical, with case
examples and reflective exercises that can be used by
anyone. I love the book’s capacity to serve as a model for
constructive conversations both within and outside
academia. It is accessible, and while an easy read, they
challenge us to look beyond simple solutions to difficult
dialogues. Not an easy task, but a necessary one if we are
to truly affirm the humanity in others.”
—Miguel E. Gallardo, PsyD, professor in the
department of psychology; and program director of
Aliento, The Center for Latina/o Communities at
Pepperdine University

“Kim and del Prado’s It’s Time to Talk (and Listen) is timely,
important, and urgently needed. At a time when so many
Americans feel divided by issues that intersect with race
and diversity, it offers hope and invites opportunities for
healing through practical, step-by-step guidance on how to
talk about and understand each other as well as our
differences. The powerful stories and thought-provoking
exercises embedded throughout the text promote deep
personal reflection, astute self-awareness, genuine
understanding, and purposeful action and change.
Everyone can benefit from this book.”
—Rachel N. Casas, PhD, associate professor in the
graduate department of psychology at California
Lutheran University

“I’m ashamed to admit how many friends I’ve unfriended,

blocked, or muted on social media because I couldn’t have
a conversation with them about our differences. I wish It’s
Time to Talk (and Listen) had been published sooner. Its
practical approach to understanding who you are, sharing
what’s important to you, and listening to others helped me
take a more courageous path forward instead of impulsively
avoiding people I disagree with. Kim and del Prado have
created a wonderful resource for anyone interested in
navigating the polarized minefield of our everyday lives.”
—Ali Mattu, PhD, clinical psychologist and assistant
professor at Columbia University Irving Medical
Center, and host of The Psych Show on YouTube

“Simultaneously practical and scholarly, this splendid book

provides the outstanding eight-step Kim Constructive
Conversations Model, to deal with contentious, complex
topics that often contain emotional minefields, especially
about culture and diversity. Kim and del Prado acknowledge
our unfathomably deep collective wounds across hundreds
of years, as well as the ongoing experiences of being
ignored, dismissed, neglected, avoided, or invalidated.
Conversations about difficult, painful topics are not only
important, but in certain contexts, can be a moral
responsibility! The model provides an opportunity to go
through those experiences in bold and courageous ways,
which can lead to a place of clarity, grace, and compassion
for oneself and others. This inspiring guide is a treasure
that can provide direction, grounding, and comfort for
anyone who experiences microaggressions, and their allies.”
—Melba J. T. Vasquez, PhD, ABPP, independent
practice in Austin, TX, and former president of the
American Psychological Association

“Kim and del Prado have written a welcoming, engaging,

and much-needed book! Their approach makes having
potentially explosive conversations seem less daunting and
possible, while still remaining true to the nuances and
complexities of such conversations. It’s Time to Talk (and
Listen) is a must-read for everyone, especially during these
unprecedented times, as we all collectively grapple with
some of the most uncomfortable, distressing, and painful
issues that have been plaguing our society and our psyche.”
—E.J.R. David, PhD, associate professor in the
department of psychology at the University of Alaska
Anchorage, and author of We Have Not Stopped
Trembling Yet and Brown Skin, White Minds

“Kim and del Prado present timely, tested, and immediately

applicable methods for interpersonal understanding and
repair. A valuable tool for families, institutions, and
communities during this divisive and stressful era.”
—Helen H. Hsu, PsyD, president of the Asian
American Psychological Association, and staff
psychologist at Stanford University
“I’ll be introducing this practical and expert guide to our
organization because it supports difficult conversations
about experiences of diverse oppression in a way that
prioritizes mutual respect, relationship connections, and
finding common ground. The authors’ inclusion of their
personal experiences encourages humility, vulnerability, and
courage in the process.”
—Megan Kirshbaum, PhD, founder and executive
director of Through the Looking Glass, and director
of The National Center for Parents with Disabilities
and Their Families

“Presenting a practical and accessible eight-step model on

how to participate in constructive dialogues about issues of
culture and diversity, the authors utilize multiple examples
and invite readers to participate, reflect, and journal in a
tone that is conversational and approachable. The emphasis
on talking with, rather than talking at, others from a place
of personal awareness and growth is emphasized
throughout. This book is a useful resource for individuals
across disciplines and professional contexts who are
interested in participating in dialogues that can promote
greater mutual understanding, and even healing, related to
difficult cultural topics.”
—Cirleen DeBlaere, PhD, associate professor in the
department of counseling psychology at Georgia
State University, and coauthor of Cultural Humility
 Publisher’s Note
This publication is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in
regard to the subject matter covered. It is sold with the understanding that
the publisher is not engaged in rendering psychological, financial, legal, or
other professional services. If expert assistance or counseling is needed, the
services of a competent professional should be sought.
In consideration of evolving American English usage standards, and reflecting a
commitment to equity for all genders, “they/them” is used in this book to
denote singular persons.
Distributed in Canada by Raincoast Books
Copyright © 2019 by Anatasia S. Kim and Alicia del Prado
New Harbinger Publications, Inc.
5674 Shattuck Avenue
Oakland, CA 94609
www.newharbinger.com
Cover design by Amy Shoup
Acquired by Ryan Buresh
Edited by Teja Watson
Text design by Michele Waters and Tracy Carlson
All Rights Reserved

Library of Congress Cataloging-in-Publication Data on file

To Dexter and Serena, my endlessly patient and generous teachers,
and to Quincy, my everything.
—Anatasia S. Kim

To my sons, Ethan and Mason, who inspire me every day, and

who slept on my lap while I typed many of these pages.
—Alicia M. del Prado
 CONTENTS

Contents
Foreword
Preface
Introduction: Mirror, Mirror, on the Wall
Step 1: Identify a Grounded Goal
Step 2: Locate and Acknowledge Barriers
Step 3: Setting a Value-Driven Intention
Step 4: Set the Stage
Step 5: Take Action
Step 6: Listen
Step 7: Respond
Step 8: Do It Again!
Conclusion: Constructive Conversations as a Lifestyle
Acknowledgments
References
 FOREWORD

As a scholar-activist, I frequently initiate uncomfortable

conversations about race, gender, sexuality, class, ethnicity, and
religion. In psychology courses where I teach about social justice
and systemic oppression, I regularly facilitate difficult dialogues
exploring students’ biases and pointing out racial, gendered, and
cultural classroom dynamics. As a consultant and multicultural
“fixer,” I am often invited to workplaces or college campuses after
“incidents” occur, where I facilitate dialogues on how colleagues
can improve intercultural communication or provide trainings on
how to manage implicit biases and microaggressions. Even in my
everyday life, I commonly find myself asking people, “What did
you mean by that?” when they make microaggressive comments
about me, my family, or my work.
Despite these experiences, I could not tell you when I first
started willfully engaging in difficult dialogues, nor how I learned
to navigate them. As a teenager, I heard many hurtful jokes
related to race, gender, and sexuality; yet, I can’t recall ever
speaking up against them. In college, while racial tensions
reverberated all over campus and led to avoidance and
segregation, professors or administrators hardly addressed them
or made us talk. In graduate school, where I typically was the
only Filipino American and the only queer person (and often the
only person of color), I constantly debated whether to participate
in classroom discussions, in fear of having to represent all of the
members of my groups, or of having to protect myself from being
invalidated, dismissed, or gaslit.
One reason why I entered academia was to improve the ways
that multiculturalism was integrated into teaching, research, and
scholarship. I wanted to provide the next generation of
multicultural psychologists with academic literature that validated
my own lived experiences while normalizing people who are
usually “othered.” I wanted to educate people with privileged
identities on how systemic oppression influences all of us, and I
wanted to create spaces (in classrooms, in workplaces, in clinical
settings, and in homes) where people could talk, listen, and learn
from each other.
Early in my career, I picked up on many common dynamics
that made multicultural teaching emotionally exhausting. While all
individuals generally can become defensive, they do so for
different reasons. People from privileged groups often describe
feeling “attacked” when confronted on the ways they are complicit
to systemic oppression. People of historically marginalized groups
often shut down out of exhaustion or frustration, or to protect
themselves from being hurt further. As a facilitator, I ordinarily
navigate a rollercoaster of emotions—feeling triggered when
participants question my abilities; drained when conflicts emerge;
and defeated when people just didn’t seem to “get it.” While I am
fortunate to have mentors and colleagues to debrief or process
each situation, my wounds took time to heal, and my anxiety
increased each time I entered the “battlefield” again.
It’s Time to Talk (And Listen): How to Have Constructive
Conversations About Race, Class, Sexuality, Ability & Gender in a
Polarized World successfully identifies and normalizes the
psychological and emotional processes of engaging in
conversations that people tend to avoid or dread. In naming the
anxieties that people have in even thinking about issues deemed
taboo or too political, Drs. Anatasia Kim and Alicia del Prado
provide crucial reassurance and guidance for each aspect of the
process. The heart of the book is the Kim Constructive
Conversations Model—a guide to approaching dialogues about
race, gender, sexuality, and other identities. Moving beyond the
“courageous” conversation to a “constructive” one, the authors
highlight an array of practical strategies and tools—from
identifying a grounded goal to locating and acknowledging
barriers.
The authors encourage self-reflection throughout—inviting
readers to journal and challenging them to identify their
emotional triggers or blind spots. They provide case studies and
exercises which assist readers in gaining (or increasing) self-
awareness, particularly about their own implicit biases or
problematic internalized notions. The authors take their own
“turns” in sharing personal reflections—proving not only that they
practice what they preach, but also modeling how to emotionally
navigate constructive conversations themselves. Through their
own personal voices and narratives, the authors also emphasize
healing and self-care—qualities that are critical when engaging in
social justice work and addressing cultural traumas.
Further, Kim and del Prado push readers to consider the
perspectives of others who are different from them. Still
acknowledging the role of systemic oppression, people of
historically marginalized groups are validated in their rights to be
angry or frustrated, and are also encouraged to move beyond (or
through) those emotions. Such nuances are important, as people
of historically marginalized groups (e.g., people of color, women,
LGBTQ people) are often tasked with the responsibility (or
burden) of teaching multiculturalism, in ways that makes people
of privileged groups (e.g., white people, men, heterosexuals) feel
comfortable. The authors’ push for people with privilege to take
initiative in sharing the burden of multicultural learning is
refreshing and validating.
Perhaps one of the greatest “take home” messages for me is
the importance for readers to reflect upon why they experience
their emotions and what those emotions may mask. People of
privileged groups often feel defensive and tense—which likely
protect their feelings of guilt and shame. People of historically
marginalized groups tend to turn to anger, frustration, or
resentment—which likely protect hurt, trauma, and internalized
oppression. People with both privileged and less privileged
identities navigate both simultaneously (e.g., white women who
feel guilty about their whiteness and frustration and sadness
about sexism), which further complicate their emotional
processes. Identifying and managing these primary emotions is
imperative for engaging in constructive conversations, but also for
surviving and thriving in life.
It’s Time to Talk (and Listen) should be required for
educators, therapists, employers, and supervisors, as well as
students, clients, employees, and supervisees. It provides the
tools that are needed for people to better understand themselves,
which will allow them to better understand others and to
communicate more effectively. In a time in which our society is
more polarized than it perhaps has ever been, it is finally time for
us to talk (and to listen) in real, organic, and meaningful ways. I
commend Drs. Kim and del Prado for arming us with the
strategies and tools to help survive the battlefields ahead.
—Kevin L. Nadal, PhD
City University of New York
 PREFACE

Have you ever been in a conversation in which someone’s speech

or behavior is culturally offensive? Maybe at your place of work, at
the dinner table, on a blind date, at the supermarket, during a
basketball game, or even during a job interview?
In this scenario, what, if anything, did you do? For many of
us, “nothing” is an all too familiar answer to this question. You
probably fantasized about what you would, could, or should have
said. Maybe you even promised yourself that the next time you
will open your mouth. Don’t worry, you’re not alone. Whether at
work or at home, on the subway or during a family dinner,
situations like this have become more and more commonplace
and complex.
In recent years, the call for difficult dialogues about
controversial issues has increased. But how? It is not uncommon
these days for family members with different political opinions to
stop speaking to each other after exchanging mutually offensive
words. It’s also typical for people to completely avoid discussing
important topics altogether, anticipating the inevitable conflict.
And if the situation happens at less than ideal times and places,
say when you’re running late or at work, these excuses make
avoidance even easier. If silence sits at one end of the continuum
and verbal conflict at the other, how do we reach a middle
ground? How do we respectfully come together so that both
parties can speak and listen?
This book is about having constructive conversations
regarding culture and diversity. The Kim Constructive
Conversations Model is a step-by-step approach that is grounded
in a commitment to healing and to honoring your personal values.
Broaching cultural topics can help heal the legacy of trauma,
silence, and shame by moving toward intimacy in a relationship
that embraces differences. We believe that highlighting healing in
this model is important, as we must aspire to individually and
collectively tend to our wounds. Through continuous and
persistent constructive conversations, we believe this is possible.
It will certainly not happen overnight. It is an investment. A
serious commitment. But certainly one worth making to ourselves
and each other.
The Kim Constructive Conversations Model will teach you to
engage in effective, candid, and compassionate conversations
with family, friends, colleagues, and even strangers about any
controversial topic, including racism, immigration, sexism, all-
gender restrooms, marriage equality, gun violence, reproductive
rights, classism, religious differences, ableism, marginalization,
and more.
We believe that constructive conversations about culture and
diversity can be for everybody. All people, despite internal and
external challenges, can engage courageously and effectively on
important matters critical to our collective well-being. Family
members, CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, supervisors and their
employees, staff with their managers, patrons at a coffee shop,
college students in sororities and fraternities, actors and directors
on their sets…the possibilities are endless. This book is not
intended for people from any particular cultural group or political
outlook. Rather, constructive conversations can be used by all
who are willing and open to engaging.
Imagine you are at a baseball game. An elderly fan in front of
you yells at the Korean pitcher to “go back home!”
Your blood starts to boil, and you yell at the man, “Shut up!
You can’t say that!” He turns around a little surprised and says,
“What?!” You quickly and loudly shout, “That’s racist!” with a clear
intent to emphatically shut him down.
 While in this scenario you may be calling out a blatant
macroaggression, this verbal confrontation is not a constructive
conversation. Why not? After all, you confronted racism head-on.
And in this day and age, isn’t this what we need?
Yes! We strongly believe that racism and macroaggressions
need to be called out for what they are, and we hope that you
can and will do this. It takes tremendous courage and quite a bit
of energy, but it is a must in order to combat the social diseases
of prejudice and discrimination.
Many great leaders have spoken directly, swiftly, and loudly
when naming injustice. It is empowering and even healing to
voice one’s mind with clarity and undoctored truthfulness.
However, “that’s racist,” in and of itself, is not a constructive
conversation. What we’re talking about here is not a “one and
done” model. Instead, a truly constructive conversation is one
that involves all parties talking, listening, and communicating
collaboratively.

Kim Constructive Conversations

Model: Practical Steps
What is a constructive conversation? A constructive conversation
is an exchange in which the people involved speak about their
personal experiences, thoughts, feelings, and beliefs on matters
of culture and diversity, and listen to the other person with
genuine openness.
In his book Courageous Conversations About Race: A Field
Guide for Achieving Equity in Schools (2015), Glenn E. Singleton
writes that a courageous conversation on race engages those who
won’t talk, sustains dialogue even if it gets uncomfortable, and
enhances communication such that deep understanding and
meaningful actions occur.
 By contrast, the Kim Constructive Conversations Model is a
step-by-step guide to conversations about culture and diversity.
The how-to includes understanding and successfully managing
both external and internal processes in potentially emotion-
charged situations. To date, much emphasis has been placed on
external processes, such as content, word choices, or rules of
engagement that focus on the overt and concrete dialogue
between those attempting to engage about culture and diversity.
Though certainly important, focusing simply on the external
process unfortunately fails to capture the full story and
experience. As such, the Kim Constructive Conversations Model
expands on existing frameworks to include the subtler, and
arguably the more important, internal process. Focusing internally
on factors such as our personality, emotional reactions, goals, and
values, and developing useful skills from this place of self-
reflection and self-understanding, can exponentially enhance the
success of difficult dialogues on culture and diversity. This is turn
makes it easier to take risks, even when emotions are strong,
stakes high, and outcomes uncertain.
In the 8-step Kim Constructive Conversations Model, healing
is emphasized. As Singleton suggests, this involves a commitment
to genuine understanding and meaningful action. This means that
the intention in having constructive conversations is not merely
for external motives—to patch up an occasional misunderstanding
or smooth out a few ruffled feathers in order to gain others’
approval or avoid future social faux pas. Rather, there is a clear
and deliberate wish to be impacted deeply and purposefully—to
be changed inside and out.
Consider people with cancer. Survivors know that the path to
healing is fraught with challenges big and small. As they heal—
from surgery, chemotherapy, or radiation—it doesn’t always feel
good. In fact, they often feel much worse before they get better.
Oncologists know they need to be direct and honest about the
difficulties that lay ahead. They know that the strength of the
patient’s character, courage, and resolve will play just as profound
a role in their healing as the treatments they will receive.
The disease of oppression is no different. In order to heal
from injustice, in order to have constructive conversations, you
must be strong and brave. You must accept that the journey will
not always be easy, and you will certainly not feel good all the
time.
But just as with a cancer patient, the alternative—not seeking
treatment—is too precarious. It means allowing the disease to
eventually take over.
Oppression and injustice too will take over if we do nothing.
Just because the path to healing is long, uncertain, and difficult
does not mean we give up before starting. As we slowly move
forward, one constructive conversation at a time, our capacity to
understand deeply and undertake meaningful actions will
strengthen. And as we have noted, constructive conversations
have boundless potential for healing.
So how do you practice this? The book that follows will help
you move beyond lip service and show you how to speak from the
heart with tools from the head. Emphasis is placed on not just
why, what, and when we speak, but more important, on
understanding how we talk with one another. You will learn tools
that are supported by research and have been practiced in
classrooms, work meetings, therapy rooms, and even around
dinner tables.
The 8-step model is straightforward and easy to follow. With
practice, the steps will become second nature and you will see
your skills improve. They will help you focus, stay in the moment,
and verbalize your thoughts and feelings, while also being open to
the other person’s perspective.
In Step 1, you identify your goal. In Step 2, you acknowledge
the barriers to engaging in a given constructive conversation. In
Step 3, you address any barriers by creating a value-driven
intention. Next, you set the stage (Step 4), and then you take
action (Step 5). In Step 6, you invite, listen, and process the
receiver’s response. In Step 7, you acknowledge, reflect, and
respond to the receiver’s reactions. And in Step 8, you repeat and
do it again.
As you can see from these steps, a constructive conversation
is not a one-sided lecture or monologue. Rather, it’s a thoughtful
and reciprocal connection, intended to deepen mutual
understanding and ultimately lead to change.

How It All Started

We are both passionate about the world of multicultural
psychology. We’ve taught classes, held trainings, and even
organized national conferences on the subject. However, issues
pertaining to culture and diversity continue to be among the most
challenging topics to converse about. For years, our students and
colleagues have told us that they struggle with how to effectively
talk about these topics in classroom discussions.
They are not alone! We frequently get questions like, “What
do I actually say?” and “How do I bring it up?” We too have had
our own struggles, both at work and in our personal lives, when
trying to address culture and diversity issues that are important to
us. It is from this struggle that the 8-step model was born.
As we are psychologists who work from a cognitive
behavioral background, it’s no surprise that the model is grounded
in a practical, linear approach of goal-setting, self-assessment,
collaborative dialogue, and personal values. We try to break
things down to their simplest parts so that readers have the ABCs
of how to engage about culture and diversity.
We define “culture” and “diversity” broadly and inclusively.
Culture includes but is not necessarily limited to race, ethnicity,
gender, sexual identity, class, ability, spirituality, religion, and age.
Additional layers of cultural complexity also include geographic
location of origin, level of educational attainment, marital status,
relationship status, diverse family structures, political identity, and
veteran status or military affiliation. Our conceptualization of
diversity includes the understanding that our identities and
experiences are heterogeneous and variegated. It’s also crucial
that we respect and honor how we each have multiple,
intersecting identities. The use of culture and diversity also
acknowledges the reality of inequity, the harmful impacts of
unexamined privilege, and the overwhelming injustices in our
global society, including all forms of discrimination, such as
racism, colorism, sexism, heterosexism, classism, ableism,
xenophobia, and ageism.
After many years of talking about these steps in workshops
and at conferences, we finally decided to take the leap and write
the approach all down. So here we are!

Meet Anatasia Kim, PhD

The 8-step model was born some years ago for the sole
purpose of serving one person—me. I remember precisely the
moment when the steps came to me. I was taking an unusually
early evening shower. (Yes, shower epiphanies do happen!) I had
been struggling for some weeks to stay motivated at work. There
had been numerous heated conversations among faculty and
graduate students around if and how to teach multicultural
studies. It was intense, necessary, and, frankly, a long time
coming.
But I was feeling depleted and demoralized. I questioned
whether I could hold on for the long haul. I feared I didn’t have
enough in my reserve. I feared what I might say or do. I was also
afraid I might simply walk away. I even started looking for
another job. I was a serious flight risk.
 Of course, what was happening at work was nothing
surprising or new. In fact, it was something I usually welcome—
open, direct, no-BS talk. We were finally talking honestly about
the herd of elephants in the room. Should multiculturalism be
taught experientially? Are we traumatizing our students by asking
them to deeply examine their privilege and internalized
oppression? Is such learning unduly burdensome for more
privileged students? Shouldn’t they be protected as well? Maybe
we should just vote to eliminate the course altogether given that
it seems to be creating so much emotionality and strife in the
school? These issues were not unique to our program; they were
challenges for many social science doctoral programs across the
country.
But for a myriad of reasons, these discussions really got to
me. This work was important and way too personal. I was not
about to go down without a fight. But I realized that what was
depleting my energy and hope was an uncomfortable feeling.
Pain. I was deeply hurt, my spirit wounded.
Like so many people, I have had my share of experiences
with cultural oppression. The uncomfortable yet eerily familiar
feeling of pain came flooding back from a past I had kept locked
away. Growing up as a young immigrant child in Southern
California—with limited economic resources, community violence,
and rampant racism—left an indelible impression on me. I learned
very quickly to not ask questions, to not challenge stereotypes or
authority, to smile and nod. All this while my identity was
constantly cross-examined, my pride perpetually bruised, and my
heart aching to scream back.
But silence and inaction ruled; I learned very early that
challenging the status quo was to be avoided at all cost. My
attempts at practicing the perfect rebuttals or threats, no matter
how clever, always fell short. Reporting on others’ misbehaviors
also came with the heavy price of alienation or the stark
possibility of retaliation. The temporary satisfaction of a good
comeback, even when it worked, retreated as quickly as it had
appeared. Change and justice felt like wasted hope, a useless
fantasy. But giving up was also not an option.
I desperately wanted to be brave. I wanted to stand up—to
everyone. To my father, who allowed police officers to talk down
to him. To the doctors and store clerks, who assumed my family’s
social class and treated us accordingly. And even to my peers,
who projected their own internalized racism onto me.
Fear and pain are difficult things to hold for a young person,
especially for a long time. Whether we like it or not, they can and
do wound us.
If you knew my mother, you’d know that the women in my
family don’t do wounded. The women of Jeju Island suck it up
and march forward boldly, unapologetically. No time for crying
and licking wounds. You get louder, stronger, and you push
through. Hard.
This had been my operating mode for most of my adult life.
It was especially the case when it came to multiculturalism and
social justice—the very reasons I had pursued a graduate degree.
I had no time for pain. There was work to be done.
But as much as I tried, I couldn’t shake the gnawing pain. So
I apprehensively turned toward it. I needed to do something.
Even with a PhD, this was too difficult. I was coming undone. I
desperately needed something to anchor me. The tornado of
emotions was growing stronger and I was certain if left
untethered, I would spiral out and say or do something I would
later regret.
The 8 steps came to me in a matter of minutes. I’ve been
trained as a cognitive behavioral therapist, so a step-by-step
approach was both familiar and grounding. I knew I needed to
slow myself down so that whatever I said or did would come from
a place of clarity and intention. I also needed to create space for
the pain. But how? As someone who treats anxiety, I knew that I
needed to turn toward, and not away from, the fear of that pain.
My spiritual practice in Buddhism and my study on the
neuroscience of Buddhist psychology also proved to be invaluable
influences. I was reminded that in order to find enlightenment
and liberation, I must first look within and begin to understand
the source of my pain and suffering. This framework became an
important foundation for the model.
So the constructive conversations model was born that early
evening, against the backdrop of my children outside the
bathroom door asking when dinner would be ready. It gave me
something to hold on to as I committed to bravely and humbly
turn toward and soften into the pain and suffering.
It was clear that the solution was not to avoid or run and get
another job, or even to reactively end relationships, which I’d
been known to do. Instead, I needed to stay, to face my fear and
anger. I needed to unmute, to listen, and to connect deeply,
honestly, and compassionately.
So, I committed to opening my heart, still raw and
vulnerable. I committed to doing my part to lessen the great
chasm between “us” and “them,” to work with and not only
against or in spite of others. The steps gave me a game plan; the
values, especially of faith and courage, gave me important tools.
In the years that followed, as I collaborated with Alicia and began
to practice the model myself, I realized that I could be both
unwavering in my pursuit of social justice and also hold deeply to
mercy and grace for myself and others. In so doing, I could speak
boldly and listen deeply. I could also hope and even heal.
I hope the Kim Constructive Conversations Model will help
you too, in your endeavors to transform yourself and those
around you. Our collective wounds are unfathomably deep, having
traveled with us across hundreds of years. The pain we have
inflicted is incalculable. Yet we have too often ignored, dismissed,
neglected, avoided, invalidated, and danced around the untold
atrocities of past and present. We must stop this—together.
 Now is the time to start connecting, talking, listening, and
healing. It’s long overdue. We owe it to ourselves. We owe it to
those whose shoulders we stand on. And most urgently, we owe it
to those who will inherit our collective legacy, our children.

Meet Alicia del Prado, PhD

From an early age, I knew I was loved, but also that I was
different from the family that loved me. One of the most
influential people in my life is my Italian American grandfather,
John Salvatore Provenzale. This tall, slender man with white hair
and a booming voice was Nonno to me. And Nonno (Italian for
“grandfather”) knew how to make me, his brown-skinned,
multiracial granddaughter of divorced parents, feel important,
worthy, and beautiful.
Nonno was also a traditional and conservative man, and I
imagine if he was alive today he and I would not see eye to eye
on some things, or likely many things! That being said, my love
for him is strong and true, and I am confident that having a white
man play such a positive role in my life influences my genuine
desire to have constructive conversations with people who look
and are so different from me.
From an early age, I pronounced with certainty to my
classmates that I was “Filipino, Italian, Spanish, and Chinese.”
These were the identity terms that my parents and grandparents
taught me, and I quickly made them my own. During my
childhood, I became very equipped to thrive in a variety of
different social situations, and I was capable of interacting and
getting along with people from a range of different backgrounds.
I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area with a large
extended family, many of whom were Filipino, Italian, Salvadoran,
Irish, Puerto Rican, and African American. Perhaps as a part of my
family fabric, I had an innate desire to foster communication and
bridge connections between different communities. These
personal and family experiences influenced my decision to study
cross-cultural psychology, as well as my ultimate career path as a
counseling psychologist who loves helping and working with
diverse groups of people.
I met Anatasia at the Wright Institute in Berkeley in 2008.
We shared a passion for multiculturalism and social justice and
soon became “sisters” in work and life. When Anatasia first
shared with me the 8 steps she’d designed, I thought to myself,
This is genius! It has been an honor to present, practice, and
partner with Anatasia on the further development of these steps.
We call each other when our practice of the 8 steps goes well. We
also analyze together what went wrong when we’re not satisfied
with the constructive conversations we’ve embarked on.
In late 2017, I was on an airplane when a stranger sitting to
the right of me asked, “You’re on the left, right?” I was totally
taken off guard. The woman speaking to me was a young white
woman. Let’s call her Tanya.
I hesitantly said yes when I registered that Tanya meant that
I was on the political left. Tanya then proclaimed that she was “on
the right” and continued to talk about topics that she had strong
opinions about. Tanya shared her thoughts about Black Lives
Matter, undocumented immigration, and also added that she
thought Barack Obama was the “Antichrist.”
I took a few deep breaths before replying. Not only have I
owned two Obama T-shirts, I even had an Obama onesie for my
newborn. For me, the election of Obama was personal and
powerful for many reasons, but especially because I connected to
his multiracial identity. He had a white mom. I have a white mom.
His father was a man of color. My father is a man of color. I felt
visible in the world in a way I hadn’t felt before, and I had felt
hopeful when Obama was in office. I wanted my children to
partake in this hopeful future, where people of color could
sometimes see themselves in their leadership.
 Another Random Document on
Scribd Without Any Related Topics
 [251] Lay Sermons, p. 61.
[252] The Social Condition, etc., vol. i. p. 420.
[253] The following language amply sustains our assertion:
“Des Teufels Braut, Ratio die schöne Metze, eine verfluchte Hure,
eine schäbige aussätzige Hure, die höchste Hure des Teufels, die
man mit ihrer Weisheit mit Füszen treten, die man todtschlagen,
der man, auf dass sie hässlich werde einen Dreck in’s Angesicht
werfen solle, auf das heimliche Gemach solle sie sich trollen, die
verfluchte Hure, mit ihrem Dünkel, etc, etc.”
[254] “Aber die Wiedertaufer machen aus der Vernunft ein Licht
des Glaubens, dass die Vernunft dem Glauben leuchten soll. Ja,
ich meine, sie leuchtet gleich wie ein Dreck in einer Laterne.”
[255] Der Culturkampf in Preussen und seine Bedenken
—“Considerations on the Culture-Struggle in Prussia”—von J. H.
von Kirchmann. Leipzig, 1875.
[256] Culturkampf, pp. 5-7. For an account of the Falk Laws
and persecution of the church in Germany, see Catholic World for
Dec., 1874, and Jan., 1875.
[257] Page 9.
[258] Tacit. Annal., xv. 44.
[259] Culturkampf, pp. 16-19.
[260] The above article is a translation of one which appeared
in the Revue Générale of Brussels, December, 1875, and was
written by Dr. Dosfel. In The Catholic World, November, 1871, a
complete analysis of Dr. Lefebvre’s work on Louise Lateau, quoted
so largely in the discussion before the Academy, was given. The
article now presented to our readers gives a calm, impartial
statement of the case of Louise Lateau as it stands to-day before
the scientific investigation of the Academy.—Ed. Cath. World.
[261] Louise Lateau. Etude médicale. Par Lefebvre. Louvain:
Peeters.
[262] Dr. Imbert-Gourbeyre, in his work, Les Stigmatisées.
[263] Bulletin of the Academy for the year 1875. Third series,
Book ix., No. 2, p. 145.
[264] Maladies et facultés diverses des mystiques. Par le Dr.
Charbonnier, p. 10, et suiv.
[265] The same work.
 [266] Report of M. Warlomont, Mémoires de l’Académie de
Médecine, p. 212.
[267] Professor Lefebvre had himself declared that, to invest
the matter with a rigorously scientific character, the question of
abstinence ought to be the object of an inquiry analogous to that
which has established the reality of the ecstasy and of the
stigmatization.
[268] Vascular tumors.
[269] White blood corpuscles.
[270] Acts xvii. 23.
[271] 1 Cor. xii. 31.
[272] Gal. iii. 19.
[273] 3 Kings vi. 7.
[274] Genesis iii. 8.
[275] Malachias iv. 2.
[276] Isaias xxii. 24; or, as it may be translated: “The vessels of
small quality, from vessels of basins even to all vessels of
flagons.”
[277] Suarez holds that grace is not always perceptible. There
are moments when we are conscious of the distinct action of
grace, by the direct perception of its effects in our soul. These are
the exceptions, which are multiplied with increasing holiness, until
they become the rule, and heroic sanctity is perfected in all its
parts.
[278] S. Matthew xix. 8.
[279] S. Matthew xi. 14.
[280] “Tantum ut qui tenet nunc, teneat, donec de medic
fiat.”—2 Thessalonians ii. 7.
[281] It is injurious to sleep in the light of the moon; and it
produces rapid putrefaction in dead fish, etc.
*** END OF THE PROJECT GUTENBERG EBOOK THE CATHOLIC
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