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THE POLITICAL ECONOMY
OF THE MIDDLE EAST
SERIES EDITOR: ASHRAF MISHRIF

Nationalization of
Gulf Labour Markets
Higher Education and
Skills Development in
Industry 4.0
Edited by
Ashraf Mishrif · Magdalena Karolak ·
Cameron Mirza
The Political Economy of the Middle East

Series Editor
Ashraf Mishrif , Humanities Research Centre,
Sultan Qaboos University, Al Khaud, Oman
This series explores the nature of Middle Eastern political regimes and
their approaches to economic development. In light of the region’s
distinctive political, social and economic structures and the dramatic
changes that took place in the wake of the Arab spring, this series
puts forward a critical body of high-quality, research-based scholarship
that reflects current political and economic transitions across the Middle
East. It offers original research and new insights on the causes and
consequences of the Arab uprisings; economic reforms and liberalization;
political institutions and governance; regional and sub-regional integra-
tion arrangements; foreign trade and investment; political economy of
energy, water and food security; finance and Islamic finance; and the poli-
tics of welfare, labor market and human development. Other themes of
interest include the role of the private sector in economic development,
economic diversification, entrepreneurship and innovation; state-business
relationships; and the capacity of regimes and public institutions to lead
the development process. The book series is Scopus Indexed.
Ashraf Mishrif · Magdalena Karolak ·
Cameron Mirza
Editors

Nationalization
of Gulf Labour
Markets
Higher Education and Skills Development
in Industry 4.0
Editors
Ashraf Mishrif Magdalena Karolak
Humanities Research Centre College of Humanities and Social
Sultan Qaboos University Science
Al Khaud, Oman Zayed University
Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Cameron Mirza
International Research and Exchanges
Board (IREX)
Washington, DC, USA

ISSN 2522-8854 ISSN 2522-8862 (electronic)

The Political Economy of the Middle East
ISBN 978-981-19-8071-8 ISBN 978-981-19-8072-5 (eBook)
https://doi.org/10.1007/978-981-19-8072-5

© Gulf Research Centre Cambridge 2023

This work is subject to copyright. All rights are solely and exclusively licensed by the
Publisher, whether the whole or part of the material is concerned, specifically the rights of
reprinting, reuse of illustrations, recitation, broadcasting, reproduction on microfilms or in
any other physical way, and transmission or information storage and retrieval, electronic
adaptation, computer software, or by similar or dissimilar methodology now known or
hereafter developed.
The use of general descriptive names, registered names, trademarks, service marks, etc.
in this publication does not imply, even in the absence of a specific statement, that such
names are exempt from the relevant protective laws and regulations and therefore free for
general use.
The publisher, the authors, and the editors are safe to assume that the advice and informa-
tion in this book are believed to be true and accurate at the date of publication. Neither
the publisher nor the authors or the editors give a warranty, expressed or implied, with
respect to the material contained herein or for any errors or omissions that may have been
made. The publisher remains neutral with regard to jurisdictional claims in published maps
and institutional affiliations.

Cover illustration: © Nick Gibson/Getty Images

This Palgrave Macmillan imprint is published by the registered company Springer Nature
Singapore Pte Ltd.
The registered company address is: 152 Beach Road, #21-01/04 Gateway East, Singapore
189721, Singapore
To our families, friends, and beloved ones
 Acknowledgements

This book is the product of an extensive discussion in a workshop titled

Nationalization of GCC Labour Market: The Changing Role of Higher
Education in the Era of the 4th Industrial Revolution, in the context
of the Gulf Research Meeting 2021, which was held in the University
of Cambridge, UK, in July 2021. This original research and invaluable
insights brought forward by leading experts and specialists from different
disciplines, professions, and backgrounds make this volume truly interdis-
ciplinary and offer new insights into the nature of the higher education
system and conditions of the labour market in the Gulf countries.
The editors would like to thank the contributors of this book, without
whom this volume would not be possible. We are also grateful to the Gulf
Research Center Cambridge for organizing the Gulf Research Meeting in
July 2021. Although the Gulf Research Meeting 2021 was held virtu-
ally due to the outbreak of COVID-19, the Gulf Research Center had
done its utmost to organize their annual meeting and make our work-
shop possible. We appreciate their commitment to advance knowledge in
humanities and social sciences.
We are also grateful to Vishal Daryanomel, editor of Palgrave
Macmillan for supporting us to get this volume published. Our thanks
also go to three anonymous reviewers who provided thorough reviews
and useful comments that allowed us to improve the manuscript.
The publication of this book comes at an important time in history,
when both higher education and labour market have to introduce radical

vii
viii ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

changes to mitigate the negative effects of COVID-19 and respond to the

emerging skills and needs brought about by Industry 4.0 technologies in
the job market. We hope that our contribution to this volume will assist
policymakers and stakeholders to initiate and devise the appreciate policies
that could support Gulf countries in their social, economic, and digital
transformation.
 Contents

1 The Nexus Between Higher Education, Labour

Market, and Industry 4.0 in the Context of the Arab
Gulf States 1
Ashraf Mishrif, Magdalena Karolak, and Cameron Mirza

Part I Overview on Higher Education and Human

Capital in the Gulf Region
2 GCC’s Higher Education in Industry 4.0: Preparing
Lifelong Learners 27
Thamer Al-Ani
3 Is Work Integrated Learning a Panacea
to Employability of Graduates in GCC Countries? 59
Shazia Farooq Fazli and Ayesha Farooq
4 Migrating Human Capital: A Case Study of Indian
Migrants in the GCC Countries 91
Anisur Rahman

ix
x CONTENTS

Part II Higher Education and Labour Market in Selected

Sectors
5 Human Capital Enhancement Through International
and On-Line Programs in the Universities of Qatar
and the UAE 123
Mariam Orkodashvili
6 Formulating Digital Right-Skilling in the Gulf’s
Healthcare 4.0 Ecosystem to Enhance Professional
Capabilities 149
Náder Alyani
7 A Hospitable Kingdom? Building New Employment
Opportunities for Saudi Youth in the Culture,
Tourism and Hospitality Sectors 179
Annalisa Pavan
8 Workforce Nationalization in the UAE: Creating
a Framework for Training Emirati Nationals
for the Banking Sector 203
Sowmya Vivek and Allen Baby

Part III Higher Education and Labour Market in

Selected Gulf Countries
9 A Realist Perspective on Agile Policy for Future Skills
in a Digital Age—An Example from the Kingdom
of Bahrain 227
Annamarie Lawrence
10 High-tech Nationalization of Gulf Employment:
A New Labor Market Approach in the United Arab
Emirates 255
Robert Mogielnicki
11 Human Capital and Health Education Among
Menopausal Emirati Women in Dubai: Implications
and Recommendations 269
Linda Smail
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 CONTENTS xi

12 Emiratization: Challenges and Potential

Strategies—An Emirati Youth Perspective 293
Anca Bocanet and Rihab Grassa
13 Bridging the Gap Between Gulf Higher Education
and Labor Market in Industry 4.0 319
Ashraf Mishrif, Magdalena Karolak, and Cameron Mirza

Index 333
 Notes on Contributors

Thamer Al-Ani is Professor of Econometrics at Baghdad University. He

was Head of Economics Department, Baghdad University from 1994
to 2000, before joining the League of the Arab States as Director of
Economic Relations Department in 2000 until 2019. He is Member of
Iraqi Economist Association, Royal statistical society, and Arab society for
Economic research.
Náder Alyani is a learning scientist and a training professional with
Siemens Healthineers, Germany, working on digitalization and harmo-
nization of regulatory and statutory compliance processes on a global
scale. His previous academic, consulting, and managerial activities had
focused on capability development, mitigating risk, and implementing
learning and innovation for strategic alignment. Over the last two
decades, he has consulted on, managed, or directed projects and
programmes with equanimity and integrity covering digital transforma-
tion, lean organizational change, digitally enhanced L&D, and developing
capabilities including the right-skilling for 4th Industrial Revolution,
within sectoral use-cases. Hardly satisfied with the status quo, his passion
for learning as empowerment and optimization, and valuing diversity and
inclusion lights a fire beneath his professional endeavours.
Allen Baby is the Manager of Center for Training of EIBFS. Dr. Baby
was Assistant Vice President-Credit Risk with SBI, Bangalore, India.
He holds Ph.D. in Finance from University of Liverpool, UK. He is

xiii
xiv NOTES ON CONTRIBUTORS

specialist in investments, credit, and other banking areas, and trained over
3000+ participants at senior levels in banking, finance, and the Investment
Industry. He has also expertise in Corporate Banking & Treasury, with
India’s top Bank (SBI). Handled large, and emerging companies across
various sectors of $350mn. He was also an AVP—Treasury with SBI
and worked across verticals like Forex, Global market research, Bonds,
Derivatives, Stocks.
Anca Bocanet is Assistant Professor and Program Team Leader at the
Higher Colleges of Technology in the UAE. She earned her Ph.D.
in Science and Technology Management from University of Naples
Federico II, Italy. She teaches a variety of courses for the Business
Analytics Program. Dr. Anca earned her Ph.D. in Science and Tech-
nology Management from University of Naples Federico II, Italy in 2011.
Her current research interests include complexity theory and systems,
organizational learning, and innovation and entrepreneurship. Her latest
research contributes to the debate on corporate innovation–productivity
trade-off in the context of new ventures creation.
Ayesha Farooq a Nuffic fellow, is a Professor of Strategy at the Depart-
ment of Business Administration, Aligarh Muslim University, Aligarh,
India. Her significant research themes are strategy, sustainability, and
entrepreneurship. Dr. Farooq is a resource person at many manage-
ment schools, with special mention of the Cadbury Centre, University
of Birmingham (UK) and created video content for UOB.
Shazia Farooq Fazli is working as Assistant Professor in the Depart-
ment of Sociology, Aligarh Muslim University, Aligarh, India. Her areas
of interest include reproductive health & reproductive rights of women
and counselling to create awareness regarding AIDS. She has worked at
Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation working on women-related issues.
Rihab Grassa is Faculty in the Higher Colleges of Technology in
Dubai-UAE as well as external associate researcher for the Laboratoire
Interdisciplinaire de Gestion Université–Enterprise in the High Insti-
tute of Accounting and Business Administration, University of Manouba,
Tunisia. She remains actively engaged in the Islamic Finance industry,
through preparing reports for governmental and financial institutions,
conference contributions, research, publishing, and drafting of reports
and case studies. She has published a wide variety of academic papers and
conference proceedings, and has presented on topics related to Islamic
 NOTES ON CONTRIBUTORS xv

banking, Islamic finance, economic growth, financial development, Sukuk

market, risks, governance. Dr. Rihab serves as associate editor and board
editor in high indexed journals such as Journal of Islamic Accounting
and Business Research, Journal of Economic Development and Coopera-
tion, Indonesian Journal of Sustainability, Accounting and Management,
and Journal of Islamic Monetary Economics and Finance. Also, she is
the guest editor of two special issues in Journal of Financial Reporting
and Accounting and International Journal of Accounting, Auditing and
Performance Evaluation.
Magdalena Karolak is Associate Professor of Humanities and Social
Sciences at Zayed University, UAE. She received her Ph.D. in Linguistics,
M.A. in Political Science and M.A. in Latin American Studies, and BA in
French Language. Prior to working at ZU, Dr. Karolak held Assistant
Professor positions in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. In 2014–2015, she was
an American Political Science Association MENA Fellow. Her research
interests include transformations of societies in the MENA region and
comparative linguistics. Dr. Karolak has published more than 50 journal
articles and book chapters on the shifting gender relations, social media,
culture and identity, and political system transformations in the MENA
countries. She is the author of three scholarly monographs.
Annamarie Lawrence is a Senior Consultant for Tribal Group, a UK-
based global education consultancy. Her global experience includes
supporting Bahrain Government with establishing work integrated
teaching and learning models for employers and higher education to work
closer together. Her technical and strategic experience has been utilized
in her contributions to national policy offering support for integrated
policy that supports both education and labour market interventions.
Her policy experience includes contributing to national innovation policy,
national research policy, apprenticeships policy, and leading a policy initia-
tive to govern professional standards for applied learning practitioners.
Her research interests cover international education policy, EdTech policy
gap for industry 4.0, policy impact assessments and the integration of
skill policy on the labour market. Annamarie holds a master’s degree in
Human Capital Development from Gothenburg University, Sweden, and
a Senior Fellowship from the UK Higher Education Academy. In addi-
tion, Annamarie holds credentials in education policy, quality assurance
in education, work integrated learning, policy impact assessments, and
Theory of Change models.
xvi NOTES ON CONTRIBUTORS

Cameron Mirza is the Chief of Party for Pre-Service Teacher Education

in Jordan, a USAID programme. In 2021, he launched a new pre-service
teaching diploma with 4 public universities. Previously, Cameron was
MENA Director for Nottingham Trent University working with govern-
ments to close skills gaps and spent several years reforming the higher
education sector of the Kingdom of Bahrain. First, as Head of Strategy
at the Ministry of Higher Education, then as Director of Strategy for the
University of Bahrain. Cameron led the University to its highest position
in the QS World, Arab rankings, and Times Impact rankings. In the UK,
Cameron was responsible for delivering such programmes as the Respect
Action Plan, the youth action plan, young apprenticeships, family inter-
vention programme, review of diversity in the curriculum, and review of
child poverty while at the Department for Education and Skills. Cameron
was also an advisor to the Ministry of Higher Education for Egypt,
supporting the improvement of over 40 Universities in Partnership with
the Egyptian Knowledge Bank. Cameron is a board member of BETT
MEA and sits on the board of Global Impact Initiative, a Texas-based
NGO.
Ashraf Mishrif is Oman Chamber of Commerce and Industry Chair
in Economic Studies at Sultan Qaboos University. Prior to that, he
was senior lecturer at King’s College London, and taught at several
universities including Qatar University, Anglia Ruskin University in
Cambridge, Greenwich University among others, where he established
and led several research clusters and doctoral programmes in economic
development, political economy, international trade and investment,
economic diversification, and private sector development. Dr. Mishrif
assumed several executive posts, including Managing Director of EU-
MED International, Cultural Advisor for the Egyptian Embassy Educa-
tion Bureau in London, and member of the Academic Board of Directors,
Boston Business Management School, Singapore. He is the editor of
the Palgrave Macmillan Book Series Political Economy of the Middle
East. His research interests include economic development; political
economy; foreign trade and investment; industrial policy; and private
sector development. He recently authored Omani Private Sector and its
contribution to sustainable development (SQU Press, 2022), and co-
edited the books Economic Diversification in Gulf Countries: The Private
Sector as an Engine of Growth, Vol. I ; and Economic Diversification in Gulf
 NOTES ON CONTRIBUTORS xvii

Countries: Comparing Global Challenges, Vol. II (Palgrave Macmillan

2018).
Robert Mogielnicki is a Senior Resident Scholar at the Arab Gulf States
Institute in Washington. He manages the institute’s political economy
research and oversees ‘Next Gen Gulf’—a long-term research series that
examines how advanced technologies shape Gulf Arab governments and
economies. Dr. Mogielnicki is also an Adjunct Assistant Professor at
Georgetown University’s Center for Contemporary Arab Studies, where
he teaches a graduate-level seminar on China–Middle East Relations, and
he is the Middle East and North Africa advisor with Freedom House for
a year-long research project on global media and technology influence.
He published his monograph, A Political Economy of Free Zones in Gulf
Arab States, with Palgrave Macmillan’s international political economy
series in April 2021. Dr. Mogielnicki holds a D.Phil. degree from the
University of Oxford’s Magdalen College and an MPhil degree in Modern
Middle Eastern Studies from the University of Oxford’s St Antony’s
College.
Mariam Orkodashvili has been affiliated with Pennsylvania Univer-
sity; UC Berkley; MIT; California State University; Peabody College of
Education, Vanderbilt University, USA; Tbilisi State University, Georgia;
Georgian American University; The Parliament of Georgia; Max Planck
Institute for Social Anthropology, Halle-Saale, Germany; Education
Research Institute in Washington, D.C.; and Edinburgh University, Scot-
land, UK. Her research interests include education policy; education
discourse analysis; media discourse analysis; language change, evolu-
tion, and variation; cognitive linguistics, neuroscience, and biolinguistics.
Mariam Orkodashvili’s publications have appeared in SAGE Encyclo-
pedia of Theory (SAGE publications); Oxford Studies in Comparative
Education; International Perspectives on Higher Education Institutions
(Peter Lang Publishers); Sociology of Education (SAGE publication);
European Education: Issues and Studies (Routledge: Taylor & Francis);
Comparative and International Education (Sense Publishers); Interna-
tional Perspectives on Education and Society (Emerald Publishers, UK);
The Jon Ben Sheppard Journal of Practical Leadership (UTPB Publica-
tion); The Journal of Democratization (Heldref Publications); Peabody
Journal of Education (Routledge: Taylor & Francis).
xviii NOTES ON CONTRIBUTORS

Annalisa Pavan is an International Relations graduate and Ph.D. holder

from the University of Padova, Italy, where she is Professor of Interna-
tional Policies on Education. She has been a Visiting Researcher at SOAS,
University of London, (2015) and at the King Faisal Center for Research
and Islamic Studies, Riyadh (2016). Her research interests and publi-
cations include Saudi, Kuwaiti and Emirati government-funded study
abroad scholarship programmes, the ongoing socio-cultural changes in
Saudi Arabia, the development of the Saudi leisure tourism industry, and
the image of Saudi Arabia in Western media. Affiliation: University of
Padova, ITALY.
Anisur Rahman is currently Professor and Director, UGC-Human
Resource Development Centre, Jamia Millia Islamia, New Delhi (India).
He holds Master’s in Economics from AMU, Aligarh) as well as Soci-
ology, M.Phil. and Ph.D. from, JNU, New Delhi. He has teaching and
research experience of more than 25 years. His area of interest includes
South Asian Migration and Diaspora, Gulf Social Demography, Issues of
Higher Education and Minorities. He has published 8 books and over
50 Research Papers in Reputed Journals in India and abroad including
his contributions as chapters in edited books by well-known scholars.
Dr. Rahman has presented over 80 Research Papers in several Confer-
ences/Seminar/Workshops in India and Abroad. He has visited several
countries like the USA, the UK, France, Germany, the Netherlands,
Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland, Hong Kong, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE.
He visited Paris, France as Visiting Professor thrice for research in 2010,
2013, and 2015. He has delivered over 130 invited talks at different insti-
tutions of higher learning in India and abroad. He is also a member of
several academic committees, bodies, and editorial boards.
Linda Smail is Associate Professor in the College of Interdisciplinary
Studies at Zayed University, Dubai, United Arab Emirates where she
teaches Mathematics and Statistics courses. She obtained her Ph.D. in
Mathematics from the Applied Mathematics Laboratory at Marne-La-
Vallée University, France in 2004. Her research interests include graphical
models and Bayesian Networks. Dr. Smail is particularly interested in
inference in Bayesian Networks and learning in graphical models with a
focus on exact inference algorithms for Bayesian networks. Her primary
scholarly goal is to conduct research and use Bayesian Networks in
different fields from Medical, Entrepreneurship, to decision making under
 NOTES ON CONTRIBUTORS xix

uncertainty. Dr. Smail is active in pursuing research in applied mathe-

matics and statistics, but after she joined Zayed University an unexpected
opportunity to work with faculty from the business, Nutrition, and public
health departments on their research and their students’ senior projects. It
ignited in her a passion for interdisciplinary research. Her latest research
deals with knowledge of Emirati women and their attitudes toward
menopause, the quality of life of Emirati women with breast cancer, and
entrepreneurial intentions among Emirati youth.
Sowmya Vivek is Director of Quality Assurance and Institutional Effec-
tiveness in EM Normandie, UAE. Prior to that, she was head of research
at Emirates Institute of banking and Financial Studies (EIBFS), UAE,
and head of quality for Deposit Operations in ICICI Bank, India. Dr.
Vivek is a seasoned banker/academician, with 17 years of work experi-
ence in banking and training/academics in India, Kuwait, Bahrain, and
UAE. She trained more than 5000 bankers in the areas of operational
risk management and controls, credit risk management, retail analytics
and finance, retail banking operations, process management, and engi-
neering and quality management. Dr. Vivek holds Ph.D. in Management
from University of Liverpool. She is currently working on her second
doctorate (DBA) in quality management from SP Jain Global school of
Management, Australia. She also earned a master’s degree in economics
from Delhi School of Economics. Her areas of research include GCC
economies, Sectors and Banking environment particularly the areas of
operational risk management and Islamic banking.
 Abbreviations

4IR Fourth Industrial Revolution

AI Artificial Intelligence
CAA Commission for Academic Accreditation
CPS Cyber-Physical System
DEL Digital Enhanced Learning
ECD Early Childhood Development
EOI Export-Oriented Industrialization
FDI Foreign Direct Investment
GCC Gulf Cooperation Council
GDP Gross Domestic Product
GIA Global Innovation Alliance
HEIs Higher Education Institutions
HRT Hormone Replacement Theory
IIoT Industrial Internet of Things
ILP Individual Learning Portfolio
IMF International Monetary Fund
IoT Internet of Things
KASP King Abdullah Scholarship Program
NCDs Non-Communicable Diseases
OECD Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development
QNRF Qatar National Research Fund
QSTP Qatar Science and Technology Park
R&D Research and Development
SMEs Small and Medium Enterprises
SWFs Sovereign Wealth Funds
TAP Tertiary Action Plan

xxi
xxii ABBREVIATIONS

TEL Technology Enhanced Learning

TFR Total Fertility Rate
TVET Technical and Vocational Education and Training
UAE United Arab Emirates
WB World Bank
WEF World Economic Forum
WIPO World Intellectual Property Organization
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Other documents randomly have
different content
 Mr. Armstrong. Well, I would say he had some, as far as I know
romantic relationships. In other words, he was always on the make.
Mr. Hubert. Well, coming to Joyce McDonald, do you think she—
that he was on the make with respect to her?
Mr. Armstrong. I would not state definitely, but I believe he
probably tried.
Mr. Hubert. Did she have any boy friends around there?
Mr. Armstrong. No; not that I know of.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know whom she lived with?
Mr. Armstrong. No; I sure don’t.
Mr. Hubert. Did she drive an automobile?
Mr. Armstrong. She didn’t drive.
Mr. Hubert. How did she get to and from work; do you know?
Mr. Armstrong. Usually somebody would bring her to work—I only
saw her downstairs getting out of a car once and some man drove
her to work, and that’s the only time I ever saw her getting out of a
car.
Mr. Hubert. You would usually leave at night before they did,
didn’t you?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. What about the other girl, the one on the right-hand
side of the pictures as you look at them, which have been identified
as series Exhibits 5301-A through 5301-E? I think you have said that
the girls there, the blonde, is “Little” Lynn or Karen Bennett Carlin, is
that correct?
Mr. Armstrong. That’s correct.
Mr. Hubert. She was married to Bruce Carlin?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; that’s what they said.
 Mr. Hubert. She was the one, or rather her husband was the one
that Jack didn’t want around the club?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. She was the one, I think, that you called on Friday,
the day of the assassination to tell her that the club would be closed
that night?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And that you could not reach the next day?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, do you know anything about either of these two
girls that you have not testified to so far?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I show you a single picture which I have
marked on here for the purpose of identification as follows: “Dallas,
Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibit 5302, Deposition of Andrew
Armstrong,” and I have signed my name, and I ask you to look at
that picture. It seems to be the picture of a man, and I ask you
whether you can identify that man or not?
Mr. Armstrong. That’s Rocco, the photographer, that made the
pictures—took the series of pictures at the Carousel Club.
Mr. Hubert. He was there for a week, you said?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And what period of time was that?
Mr. Armstrong. What?
Mr. Hubert. What period of time was he there—when was that
week?
Mr. Armstrong. Around the 1st of November.
Mr. Hubert. From the 1st to the 7th or 8th of November?
 Mr. Armstrong. Something like that—yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did he pay anything for the purpose of taking those
pictures—did—to your knowledge, did he pay anything?
Mr. Armstrong. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Hubert. He got the consent of Mr. Ruby?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I want to show you a series of pictures which
have been marked for identification as follows, to wit:
“Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1904, Exhibit 5303, Deposition of
Andrew Armstrong,” and I have marked my name on each of them,
and they are numbered, in addition to Exhibit No. 5303, of which
they form a part of the series, they are numbered A through I, and I
ask you to look at those pictures, please.
Mr. Armstrong [examined pictures referred to].
Mr. Hubert. All right, now you have examined the several pictures
constituting Exhibit 5303, marked in a series as A through I, and I
will ask you whether you can recognize anybody in any of these
pictures?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Let’s then take Exhibit No. 5303-A, first, and tell me
whom you recognize in that picture?
Mr. Armstrong. This right here—the first picture.
Mr. Hubert. We are talking about the top picture on the left hand
side—right?
Mr. Armstrong. Right—is Joy Dale, and the M.C. that’s shown in
all of these pictures, the little man on the stage—give me a minute
and I will try to think of his name, but coming down the line, the
second picture on the left hand side is Tammi True.
Mr. Hubert. That’s the girl?
 Mr. Armstrong. That’s the girl—she is being held up by a very
huge gentleman by the name of—oh—I know his name—his name is
Tiny—he comes in the club quite often and he usually gets the same
seat—a special chair we had there for him.
Mr. Hubert. This picture appears several times, does it not?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. That is to say, it appears in the third row of the left-
hand picture?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. And it appears in the bottom row of the left-hand
picture, correct?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. How often would that man come to the club?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, he started to coming there back in the
summer—last summer and he was usually there—he very seldom
missed a weekend.
Mr. Hubert. You knew him only as Tiny?
Mr. Armstrong. As Tiny.
Mr. Hubert. You never heard his last name?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Was he friendly with Ruby?
Mr. Armstrong. Not friendly—just that—he didn’t well, you could
say they was friendly, but they didn’t know each other, anything
about each other’s backgrounds, or anything like that.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see him talking with him?
Mr. Armstrong. No, not conversationally.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see them go out together and come back
together?
 Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did he spend a lot of money there?
Mr. Armstrong. No, a few beers was all.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever see him with anyone else?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. He always came alone?
Mr. Armstrong. One time he came there with a couple other guys,
but just once, otherwise, he was all alone.
Mr. Hubert. Did you know the other men he came with?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t remember when he came in with the other
two men?
Mr. Armstrong. No—the top picture is——
Mr. Hubert. Wait a minute, before we leave the big man called
Tiny, when was the last time you saw him, to your knowledge?
Mr. Armstrong. Three or four nights ago—Saturday night—I think.
Mr. Hubert. You mean this past Saturday night?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You are talking about April 11?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you see him?
Mr. Armstrong. At the Theatre Lounge.
Mr. Hubert. Do you work there now?
Mr. Armstrong. No, I stopped by and say hello to a friend of mine
that works there and bartends.
Mr. Hubert. And he was over there?
 Mr. Armstrong. I have saw him in there, oh, about four times I
think in the last month—I would say.
Mr. Hubert. And prior to that, when was the last time you saw
him?
Mr. Armstrong. Prior to that—the last time I saw him was at the
club.
Mr. Hubert. When was that?
Mr. Armstrong. Oh, I would say it was probably the last weekend
before we closed.
Mr. Hubert. He continued to come to the club, then, after the
assassination?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever talk to him about Ruby’s shooting
Oswald?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever hear him talk to anybody else about it?
Mr. Armstrong. No, never did. The reason why he’s got to be so
popular is because he is a helper—he cracks a few jokes and the
M.C.’s like to talk to him because he don’t get out of line when they
talk to him, and he is usually called on during the spinning of the
roulette wheel, or something like that, and if he won a bottle of
champagne or something like that, it was a big thing.
Mr. Hubert. Was he employed by the club?
Mr. Armstrong. No, he wasn’t employed, he was just a regular
customer that has very nice conduct and has a good sense of humor.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, the M.C.’s figure they can always get
a kick out of him, which would amuse the audience?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
 Mr. Hubert. Now, I show you a picture which is marked for
identification as Exhibit 5303-1, and ask you if that is not that same
fat man on the right-hand middle of the picture, with a white shirt,
with his right hand on his hip and the left hand leaning on the stage
right by the microphone?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. That’s the man, Tiny, that you have identified as
being in Exhibit 5303-A; is that correct?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. And while we are looking at Exhibit 5303-I, who is
the girl dancing there?
Mr. Armstrong. Kathy Kay.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture?
Mr. Armstrong. The waitress over there.
Mr. Hubert. You mean the one with the white blouse?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And she has dark hair; you can’t see her face, but
you can see the back of her figure.
Mr. Armstrong. I think it’s Bonnie.
Mr. Hubert. Bonnie who?
Mr. Armstrong. Bonnie Kelley is all I know.
Mr. Hubert. That girl you are identifying is in the left middle of
the picture; right?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Right behind the man with the gray suit and with his
left hand by his mouth and a cigarette in his left hand; is that right?
Mr. Armstrong. That’s correct; and this is Tiny’s usual position—
his usual sitting position—he always gets this table right here
[indicating].
Mr. Hubert. Now, I wish you would just take these pictures,
starting with Exhibit 5303-B, and just state for the record who is in
the picture that you know, identifying each of the particular frames,
by saying whether it is in the top row, second row, third row, or
fourth row, and then whether it is on the left-hand side, the middle,
or the right-hand side.
Mr. Armstrong. On the top row on the left-hand side is Tammi
True. On the top row in the middle is Tammi True.
Mr. Hubert. Well, now, perhaps we could shorten this by putting
it this way: On this number of pictures, 12 to be exact, of Exhibit
5303-B, the girl who is doing the act is Tammi True—right—in all of
them?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. It isn’t?
Mr. Armstrong. On the series of pictures in the left line down from
the top to bottom and in the middle from top to bottom is Tammi
True. The pictures on the right-hand side—the brighter pictures—are
Joy Dale.
Mr. Hubert. All four of them?
Mr. Armstrong. All four of them.
Mr. Hubert. On the right-hand side?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You have identified the pictures on Exhibit 5303-B?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. Now, will you look at Exhibit 5303-C? There are 12
pictures on that, and they are all the same girl?
Mr. Armstrong. They are all the same girl, Kathy Kay.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize anyone else in there?
 Mr. Armstrong. No one else.
Mr. Hubert. Now, take Exhibit 5303-D. There are 12 pictures in
that and they are all of the same girl?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; they are all the same girl.
Mr. Hubert. Who is she?
Mr. Armstrong. Little Lynn.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I’ll ask you to look at Exhibit 5303-E. There are
12 pictures on that, showing various poses of a girl, is it all the same
girl?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; all the same girl.
Mr. Hubert. Who is it?
Mr. Armstrong. Joy Dale.
Mr. Hubert. Is there anybody else in there you recognize?
Mr. Armstrong. No one else.
Mr. Hubert. Then, take the next picture, which has been
identified as Exhibit 5303-F, also consisting of 12 pictures, except
that in the second row the middle picture is blank, so that there are
really only 11 pictures, and I ask you if the same girl is in all those
pictures; that is to say, the dancer?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Well, then, let’s take the left-hand row from top to
bottom. Is it the same girl in those four pictures?
Mr. Armstrong. Same girl.
Mr. Hubert. Who is that?
Mr. Armstrong. Kathy Kay.
Mr. Hubert. And in the middle series there is a top picture and
the next one down is blank and then the third and fourth rows from
the top, there are two others—who is in those pictures?
 Mr. Armstrong. Kathy Kay.
Mr. Hubert. In all of them?
Mr. Armstrong. All of them.
Mr. Hubert. Then, move to the right-hand row; there are four
pictures from the top down, and will you identify them? Are they
different girls in those pictures?
Mr. Armstrong. No; that’s Little Lynn.
Mr. Hubert. They are all of Little Lynn?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Is there anybody else in there you recognize in those
pictures?
Mr. Armstrong. Just a waitress in the bottom picture.
Mr. Hubert. In the bottom right-hand picture; right?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. The girl with dark glasses on, on the right-hand side
of that picture?
Mr. Armstrong. Correct.
Mr. Hubert. Does she have shorts on, or something?
Mr. Armstrong. She has some white slacks on.
Mr. Hubert. And a black sweater?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who is that?
Mr. Armstrong. Bonnie Kelley.
Mr. Hubert. I think that’s the girl you identified in a previous
picture; is that right?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. Anybody else you recognize?
 Mr. Armstrong. No; no one else.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I show you a group of 12 pictures identified as
Exhibit 5303-G, and ask you if the same girl is in all of those
pictures?
Mr. Armstrong. The same girl.
Mr. Hubert. Who is the girl?
Mr. Armstrong. Tammi True.
Mr. Hubert. Anybody else you recognize in any of those pictures?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Then, I show you an exhibit marked 5303-H, also a
group of 12 pictures, and ask you to start with the row of 4 pictures
on the right-hand side from the top to the bottom; who is in those 4
pictures?
Mr. Armstrong. Kathy Kay.
Mr. Hubert. Kathy Kay?
Mr. Armstrong. No, no; on the right-hand side?
Mr. Hubert. On the right-hand side.
Mr. Armstrong. No; this is Joy Dale.
Mr. Hubert. She is in all four of those?
Mr. Armstrong. All four of them.
Mr. Hubert. Now, take the middle row; who is the girl in those?
Mr. Armstrong. Kathy Kay.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize the man?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. No; the left-hand row of four pictures—the two from
the top—the first and second pictures from the top, can you identify
those people?
 Mr. Armstrong. Kathy Kay.
Mr. Hubert. Now, the lower pictures on the left-hand row; there
are two people, a man and a girl; who are they?
Mr. Armstrong. That’s Kathy Kay; I don’t know who the man is.
Mr. Hubert. Was he employed by the club?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, Mr. Armstrong, we have been taking your
deposition all day and it is now 5:15 p.m., and I suggest that we
adjourn and that you come back Thursday morning—can you do that
—or Thursday afternoon?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Can you come in without any further notice on
Thursday, April 16?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. All right; we will recess your deposition until that time
and complete it on Thursday, April 16.
 TESTIMONY OF ANDREW
ARMSTRONG, JR. RESUMED
The testimony of Andrew Armstrong, Jr., was taken at 9:12 a.m.,
on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D.
Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. Hubert. Mr. Armstrong, you recall that day before yesterday
we recessed the taking of your deposition because it was getting
late in the day?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And we made an appointment to continue it today at
1:30, but that was changed again to 9 o’clock?
Mr. Armstrong. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. That’s satisfactory with you?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now, you understand that what we are going to do
today is simply a continuation of the deposition that was begun the
other day; you understand that?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. That I am acting under the same authority, that you
are here in the same way that you were here before, and that you
are under the same oath that you were under when you testified
before?
 Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Except there has been a recess just like there was on
Tuesday when we recessed for lunch?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Only this recess has been a little longer?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. Mr. Armstrong, when we left off the other day, you
had been examining a number of pictures which had been marked
for identification as Exhibit 5303, and I believe that you had
examined all of the pictures in that series except those marked for
identification as Exhibits 5303-J, K, L, and M. Now, I show you, first
of all, the picture identified as Exhibit 5303-J, and ask you if you
recognize what place is pictured there?
Mr. Armstrong. That’s the Carousel Club.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize anybody in that picture?
Mr. Armstrong. I recognize the girl standing on the stage.
Mr. Hubert. You mean the girl with the dark skirt, light sweater,
and with long tresses?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. The picture shows only the back of her?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, she is right back of the microphone?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who is that girl?
Mr. Armstrong. Tammi True.
Mr. Hubert. Who is the man just in front of her, right in the center
of the picture, leaning over?
Mr. Armstrong. That’s a customer; I don’t know who he is.
 Mr. Hubert. You don’t know who he was?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Had you ever seen him before?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize anybody else in that picture?
Mr. Armstrong. Just the M.C. standing back by the girl, but I can’t
recall his name.
Mr. Hubert. When you say “the M.C.,” you are, referring to the
person in that picture whose head stands between Tammi True and
the customer you have identified and actually right above the top of
the microphone?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. He was an M.C.?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You don’t know his name?
Mr. Armstrong. I can’t recall.
Mr. Hubert. Was that Wally Weston?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Who followed Wally Weston; do you know?
Mr. Armstrong. Sal Vincent; he followed Wally Weston, and this
guy followed Sal Vincent.
Mr. Hubert. It that Bill DeMar?
Mr. Armstrong. No; I don’t think so.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember when Sal Vincent left?
Mr. Armstrong. Sal was only there 2 or 3 weeks. In other words,
you could say the last part of—during the last part of September, I
would say.
 Mr. Hubert. That was Vincent, you say?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; Sal Vincent.
Mr. Hubert. Then he left, you mean, in the last part of
September?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. He was there about 3 weeks?
Mr. Armstrong. About 3 weeks.
Mr. Hubert. And Wally Weston had been there before him?
Mr. Armstrong. Right.
Mr. Hubert. How long had Weston been there?
Mr. Armstrong. Wally had been there since about June 1062.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, he had been there about 15 months
when he left?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And he was following Sal Vincent?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And Sal Vincent stayed 3 weeks, until about the end
of September?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And this man you have identified as the M.C. in
Exhibit 5303-J took his place?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And he stayed how long?
Mr. Armstrong. He stayed about a month, I would say; he stayed
about a month.
Mr. Hubert. Would you say that he stayed until about November 1
or later?
 Mr. Armstrong. Yes; I would say he stayed about that.
Mr. Hubert. And who followed him?
Mr. Armstrong. Bill DeMar.
Mr. Hubert. And how long did Bill stay—Bill DeMar stay?
Mr. Armstrong. Bill DeMar stayed up until after the assassination.
Mr. Hubert. And how long had Bill DeMar been there when the
assassination took place?
Mr. Armstrong. 3 weeks—3 or 4 weeks, I guess.
Mr. Hubert. You think that Bill DeMar came in there about the 1st
of November?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And that he took the place of Sal Vincent?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes—no—no, he took the place of this man right
here [indicating picture].
Mr. Hubert. That man?
Mr. Armstrong. The man I can’t identify.
Mr. Hubert. He took the place of the man whose name you can’t
remember, in Exhibit 5303-J, but whose name you don’t remember?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. If you do happen to remember his name a little later
on, will you interrupt me and tell us about it?
Mr. Armstrong. All right.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize anybody else in that picture,
identified as Exhibit 5303-J?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. All right, then I show you a picture which has been
marked for identification as Exhibit 5303-K, and I ask you to look at
it.
Mr. Armstrong. All right [examining instrument referred to].
Mr. Hubert. Do you know what the place is?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, that’s the club—I’m sure of that—I’m sure
that that is the Carousel Club.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize anybody in it at all?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes; the waitress in the upper right-hand corner.
Mr. Hubert. The waitress in the far background in the upper right-
hand corner, whose profile can be seen, and also her left arm—she
seems to have a white blouse on, right?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. She is standing by a picture frame or a window or
something, correct?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who is that?
Mr. Armstrong. That’s our little Margie—her name is Margie.
Mr. Hubert. Margie what?
Mr. Armstrong. Margie Norman.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize anybody else?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. I’m marking with an arrow, which I am placing my
initials on, and I ask you to place your initials on next to that arrow
too, and the arrow points to a man about in the center of the picture
at the bottom, and he has on what appears to be a grayish checked
shirt—you can see him by profile—he parts his hair on his left side.
Do you know who that man is?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Have you ever seen him before?
 Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. And you recognize nobody else in the picture?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I show you pictures marked for identification as
Exhibits 5303-L, and ask you if you recognize the place, first?
Mr. Armstrong. It’s the Carousel Club.
Mr. Hubert. Who is on the stage holding the mike?
Mr. Armstrong. Jack Ruby.
Mr. Hubert. Who else is in the picture that you recognize?
Mr. Armstrong. No one else.
Mr. Hubert. I show you another picture which has been identified
as Exhibit 5303-M, and ask you first if you can identify the place?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Who is the man on the stage holding the mike?
Mr. Armstrong. Jack Ruby.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I show you a picture which has been marked
for identification as Exhibit 5304-A and ask you to look at that
picture and tell us, first of all, if you recognize the place?
Mr. Armstrong. No, I don’t.
Mr. Hubert. Is it the Carousel Club?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. How do you know it is not the Carousel; how do you
distinguish it from the Carousel?
Mr. Armstrong. Well, the whole picture—it’s definitely not the
Carousel.
 Mr. Hubert. Did the Carousel have that kind of furniture?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did it have a bar?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did it have a bar with liquor bottles on it like that one
does?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did it have chandeliers like that?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recognize any person in that picture?
Mr. Armstrong. No, I sure don’t.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know the man sitting at the table in the
foreground of the picture who is being served a drink by a girl in
costume?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Have you ever seen him at the Carousel?
Mr. Armstrong. I don’t remember him.
Mr. Hubert. Have you ever seen him anywhere?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. What about the girl who is serving him the drink, do
you recognize her?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. You have never seen her any place?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. Now, do you see a man in the picture near the bar
who appears to be the bartender?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
 Mr. Hubert. You mean you don’t see him?
Mr. Armstrong. I see him, but I can’t see him too clear—I don’t
recognize him.
Mr. Hubert. Did you know a man by the name of Mike Ryan?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Is that Mike Ryan?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
Mr. Hubert. You are certain that it is not Mike Ryan?
Mr. Armstrong. Positive.
Mr. Hubert. Who was Mike Ryan?
Mr. Armstrong. He was just a—he came in—the first time I ever
met him he was with Jack, and he was sort of a lone wolf sort of on
the go all the time.
Mr. Hubert. Did he come around the Carousel very much?
Mr. Armstrong. At one time—I would say it was within a period of
a couple of weeks he was around there quite often.
Mr. Hubert. When was that period of a couple of weeks that he
came around there very often?
Mr. Armstrong. I don’t recall—it was during last summer.
Mr. Hubert. You mean the summer of 1963?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Would it have been when Wally Weston was there?
Mr. Armstrong. It was when Wally Weston was there.
Mr. Hubert. Did he come after that?
Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. But not as often?
Mr. Armstrong. No.
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