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 NINETY-SEVENTH DAY
Tuesday, 2 April 1946

Morning Session
[The Defendant Von Ribbentrop resumed the stand.]
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: My Lord, Your Lordship will have
noticed that I did not deal with the question of Jews. That will now
be taken up by my learned friend, M. Faure, of the French
Delegation.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Mr. President, may I say a few words on an
important question? A map was discussed here yesterday, the map
which is now visible in court. From that map the Prosecution
conclude that a large number of concentration camps were
distributed all over Germany. The defendants are contradicting this
statement as energetically as possible. In the treatment of my case,
the case of the Defendant Kaltenbrunner, I hope to adduce evidence
to the effect that only a very few of the red spots on this map are
accurate. I wish to make this statement here and now, in order that
the impression does not arise over again, in the subsequent cases,
that this map is a correct one.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, this is only a reproduction of
what has already been put in evidence.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, but I am at liberty to adduce proof to the
contrary.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course you are, but it is not necessary for
you to say so now. The fact that the evidence was put in by the
Prosecution at an earlier date, of course, gives you every opportunity
to answer it, but not to answer it at this moment.
M. FAURE: Defendant, as Minister for Foreign Affairs, you were
the chief of the diplomatic personnel, were you not?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes.
M. FAURE: The personnel followed your instructions, did they
not?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes.
M. FAURE: You declared yesterday that you were responsible for
the acts of your subordinates?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes.
M. FAURE: Would you tell me if Dr. Best, Plenipotentiary for
Denmark, was a member of your Ministry?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes.
M. FAURE: Dr. Best told you, did he not, that Hitler had given an
order to assassinate Danes when there were acts of sabotage?
VON RIBBENTROP: May I ask you to repeat the question?
M. FAURE: According to the documents that have been
produced before the Tribunal, Dr. Best saw you on 30 December
1943 and told you that Hitler had given the order to assassinate
Danes when there were acts of sabotage in Denmark; is that so?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, that was to be done against saboteurs.
Hitler had ordered it.
M. FAURE: The order, according to the terms employed by Dr.
Best in the document, was to “execute persons, terrorists or non-
terrorists, without trial.” Can that not be considered as
assassination?
VON RIBBENTROP: From the beginning I strongly opposed
these measures, and so did Dr. Best. We went so far as to...
M. FAURE: Defendant, I am not trying to say that you were
pleased with this state of affairs. I am merely asking you if you were
informed thereof. Is that correct?
 VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, the Führer wanted that. I do not know
the details.
M. FAURE: But I am not asking for details.
VON RIBBENTROP: And what was ordered afterwards I do not
know because, so far as I am aware, it did not go through us, but
through another department.
M. FAURE: I note that you actually were informed of the
Führer’s order given that day to permit assassination. You therefore
considered it normal to belong to a government, the head of which
was a murderer.
VON RIBBENTROP: No, the exact opposite is true here, the
exact opposite...
M. FAURE: All right, all right, just answer, please.
VON RIBBENTROP: ...for I told him that I had taken my stand
and that I held divergent views. The Führer was most dissatisfied
with Dr. Best and had the matter handled through other channels,
since Dr. Best was against it and so was I.
M. FAURE: I am merely asking you to answer my question very
briefly. You can give details through your counsel later.
With regard to Denmark, there was action against the Jews in
that country in order to deport them. Did you have anything to do
with that?
VON RIBBENTROP: I cannot tell you anything about matters
relating to the Jews in Denmark, since I know nothing.
M. FAURE: Did you never hear anything about it?
VON RIBBENTROP: I remember that I discussed the fact with
Best, that this question was of no significance in Denmark. He was
therefore not proposing to do anything in particular about the Jewish
question there, and I declared myself in complete agreement with
him.
M. FAURE: I ask that you be shown Document 2375-PS. This
document has not yet been submitted to the Tribunal. I would like to
submit it under French Exhibit Number RF-1503. I would like to read
with you the second paragraph of this document. It is an affidavit
from Mildner, a colonel of the police in Denmark.
“As commander, I was subordinate to the Reich
Plenipotentiary, Dr. Best. Since I was opposed to the
persecution of the Jews, on principle and for practical
reasons, I asked Dr. Best to give me the reasons for the
measures that were ordered.
“Dr. Best declared to me that the Reich Foreign Minister,
Ribbentrop, obviously knew Hitler’s intention to exterminate
the Jews in Europe. He had furnished Hitler with a report
about the Jewish problem in Denmark and proposed to
deport the Jews from Denmark.
“Dr. Best declared furthermore that Ribbentrop was afraid
of being held responsible in case the Jews remained in
Denmark.
“Dr. Best was now compelled to carry out the measures
that were proposed to Hitler by Ribbentrop.
“From the discussion with Dr. Best I gathered that he must
have had a discussion or a telephone conversation with
Ribbentrop.”
You read that, did you not?
VON RIBBENTROP: What is written in this document is pure
fantasy. It is not true.
M. FAURE: Very well; I ask then that you be shown Document
3688-PS, which I wish to deposit under the French Exhibit Number
RF-1502. It is a note of 24 September 1942, signed by Luther, and
addressed to his collaborators. I should like to read with you the first
two paragraphs of that document.
“The Minister for Foreign Affairs has instructed me today by
telephone to expedite as much as possible the evacuation
of the Jews from different countries in Europe, since it is
certain that the Jews stir up feelings against us everywhere
 and must be held responsible for acts of sabotage and
outrages.
“After a short report on the evacuation of Jews at present
in process in Slovakia, Croatia, Romania, and the occupied
territories, the Minister for Foreign Affairs has ordered us
now to approach the Bulgarian, Hungarian, and Danish
Governments with the aim of getting the evacuation started
in these countries.”
I suggest that this second document confirms the first as
regards your participation in the deportation of Jews in Denmark. Do
you agree?
VON RIBBENTROP: It was the Führer’s plan, at the time, to
deport the Jews from Europe to North Africa, and Madagascar was
also mentioned in this connection. He ordered me to approach
various governments with a view to encouraging the emigration of
the Jews, if possible, and to remove all Jews from important
government posts. I issued instructions to the Foreign Office
accordingly, and, if I remember rightly, certain governments were
approached several times to that effect. It was the question of the
Jewish emigration to certain parts of North Africa; that is true. May I
return to this affidavit? This sworn affidavit is pure fantasy of Colonel
Mildner’s and is absolutely untrue.
M. FAURE: But, in any case, you admit...
VON RIBBENTROP: Dr. Best once discussed the Jewish question
with me, and he said that as far as Denmark was concerned, the
question was of no particular importance, since there were not many
Jews left there. I explained to him that he would have to let matters
take their own course there. That is the truth.
M. FAURE: You admit, nevertheless, that this document signed
by Luther is correct, and that you did give the order to evacuate the
Jews of Denmark? It is in the letter.
VON RIBBENTROP: No, not in Denmark. I do not even know
this document of Luther’s. This is the first time I have seen it.
 M. FAURE: Please, simply answer my questions; otherwise we
shall waste a lot of time. In your opinion, both these documents are
incorrect, you said so; let us pass on.
The German Embassy in Paris...
VON RIBBENTROP: No, I did not say so. That is incorrect. I said
that I did not know Luther’s document. It is, however, true that the
Führer gave me instructions to tell the Foreign Office to approach
certain foreign governments with a view to solving the Jewish
problem by removing the Jews from government positions and,
wherever possible, to favor Jewish emigration.
M. FAURE: The German Embassy in Paris was under your
orders, was it not?
VON RIBBENTROP: The German Embassy in Paris, that is, the
Ambassador to the Vichy Government, naturally received orders from
me.
M. FAURE: French Document RF-1061 has already been read to
the Tribunal and in this document you defined the functions of
Ambassador Abetz. It is 3614-PS.
In this document, which has already been read to you twice
here, I would remind you that you commissioned Abetz to put in a
safe place the public and private art treasures, particularly those
belonging to Jews, on the basis of special instructions mentioned
here. Abetz executed this mission by pillaging art collections in
France.
VON RIBBENTROP: It is not true.
M. FAURE: I would ask that you be shown Document 3766-PS,
which has not yet been produced, and to which I should like to give
the French Exhibit Number RF-1505. I will go over merely a few lines
of this document with you. It is a report from the military
administration, which was distributed in 700 copies. It is entitled:
“Report on the Removal of French Works of Art by the German
Embassy and the Einsatzstab Rosenberg in France.”
If you will look at Page 3, you will see that the title in the
margin is very significant: “German-Embassy: Attempt to remove
paintings from the Louvre.”
Page 4, I will read the first sentence at the top of the page...
VON RIBBENTROP: When may I refer to the individual points?
Not at all, or here and now?
M. FAURE: When I ask you a question you will answer. I am
reading a passage to you:
“Ambassador Abetz, disregarding the prohibition
pronounced by the military administration, undertook to
send to Germany a series of works of art from the Louvre
which had been placed in safety.”
Were you informed of this?
VON RIBBENTROP: I declare that this is absolutely untrue. Not
a single work of art was taken out of the Louvre by Ambassador
Abetz. That would have been contrary to the express orders of the
Führer, who had strictly forbidden it. The report is incorrect.
May I mention that on one occasion the French Government
wanted to present me with a work of art from the Louvre, a painting
by Boucher. I returned this picture to the Louvre. I do not possess
anything, and the Foreign Office never even saw a single work of
art, from the Louvre.
M. FAURE: You state that this report is incorrect?
THE PRESIDENT: What is this report you are putting to him?
M. FAURE: It is Document 3766-PS.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I know, but what is this document?
M. FAURE: It is a report from the German military
administration, which is in the American documents in the PS series.
The Tribunal received a general affidavit referring thereto.
THE PRESIDENT: Captured documents?
M. FAURE: Yes, captured documents. I indicate to the Tribunal
that this captured report contains numerous other passages relating
to the actions of Abetz, but as the defendant declares that the report
is inexact as regards one of its passages, I shall not continue reading
the document, in order to save time.
 In addition...
VON RIBBENTROP: But this is not a captured document, not a
report.
M. FAURE: Please answer my questions. We are not going to
carry on this controversy. Your counsel can interrogate you later on.
DR. HORN: I must ask your permission to inquire into the
nature of the documents submitted to the defendant. If it is stated
that it is a captured report and then that it is not a captured report,
the matters should be put right, here and immediately.
M. FAURE: I have already indicated that this document belongs
to the PS series of captured documents. The Tribunal has a large
number of such documents and I do not think that their authenticity
will be disputed.
[Turning to the defendant.] I would now like to ask you the
following question:...
THE PRESIDENT: Are you going to ask further questions upon
this document?
M. FAURE: No, Mr. President.
[Turning to the defendant.] Apart from the questions of art
treasures, Abetz also dealt with the question of the treatment of
Jews in general, did he not?
VON RIBBENTROP: Abetz had no order. As far as I know he also
had nothing to do with the Jewish question. This question was
handled by other departments.
M. FAURE: Is it not true that in October 1940 Abetz
communicated with you with a view to settling the situation of Jews
of German or Austrian descent who were residing in France?
VON RIBBENTROP: I do not know; it did not interest me.
M. FAURE: I would like to show you Document EC-265, which I
wish to submit as French Document RF-1504. It is a telegram from
Abetz dated 1 October 1940. I will read merely the first and last
sentences:
 “The solution of the Jewish problem in the occupied
territory of France requires, besides other measures, a
regulation as soon as possible of the citizenship status of
the Reich German Jews who were living here at the
beginning of the war...”
And the last sentence:
“The measures proposed above are to be considered as
merely the first step toward the solution of the entire
problem. I reserve the right to make other proposals.”
VON RIBBENTROP: May I have time to read the telegram first?
THE PRESIDENT: That is a little too fast.
M. FAURE: Yes.
VON RIBBENTROP: So far as I can see, this telegram apparently
deals with the fact that Austrian and German Jews are to be
repatriated to Austria and Germany from France. I do not know that.
This is the first time I have seen this telegram, and I can give no
information about it. It probably represents one of the routine
measures dealt with by the Foreign Office in the course of the day’s
work, but which were not submitted to me; and apart from that,
these matters were individually dealt with by other departments, not
by us.
M. FAURE: If you will look on the left-hand side of the telegram,
you will see the distribution list. There were 19, including you, were
there not? You were Number 2.
VON RIBBENTROP: I should like to inform the French prosecutor
that every day four, five, six, or eight hundred such documents and
telegrams reached my office, of which only 1 or 2 percent were
submitted to me.
M. FAURE: Apart from the question...
VON RIBBENTROP: In any case I know nothing about this
telegram.
M. FAURE: Apart from the question of Jews of Austrian and
German origin, your colleagues and subordinates in the Embassy
also dealt with the question of the French Jews. Now, before asking
you this question, I should like to read out to you two sentences
from a document which was submitted to the Tribunal as French
Document Number RF-1207. It is a report from Dannecker, who was
responsible for solving the Jewish problem in France. Dannecker
concluded his report as follows:
“In this connection, I cannot speak of this matter without
mentioning the genuinely friendly support which our work
received from the German Ambassador Abetz, his
representative, the envoy Schleier, and SS Sturmbannführer
and Counsellor of Legation Dr. Zeitschel. I should like to
add that the Embassy in Paris has, on its own initiative,
placed quite large sums at the disposal of the branch in
charge of the Jewish question, for the financing of the Anti-
Jewish Institute, and that it will continue to do so in future.”
Therefore, according to these documents, Abetz, Schleier, and
Zeitschel worked together.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Faure, we do not know where you are
reading from.
M. FAURE: Mr. President, this document was not given to you in
this folder because it has already been submitted to the Tribunal. I
merely wished to read two sentences from it.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
M. FAURE: It is evident therefore, from this document, that
three officials of the German Embassy, Abetz, Schleier, and Zeitschel,
collaborated with Dannecker in the settlement of Jewish affairs. That
is shown by the document, is it not?
VON RIBBENTROP: Am I supposed to answer that? Is it a
question?
M. FAURE: It is a question.
VON RIBBENTROP: To that question I must answer “naturally.”
They certainly collaborated to some extent in the Jewish question in
France; that is perfectly clear. But I can also add that the French
Prosecution surely is informed that Ambassador Abetz was not only
instructed by me, but also acted on his own initiative in always
attempting to reach some kind of conciliatory settlement of this
question. It goes without saying that the Embassy was involved, one
way or the other, in this sphere of action. And it also goes without
saying that I must assume responsibility for anything done by the
gentlemen in the Embassy, and I should like to repeat that my
instructions as well as the activities of Ambassador Abetz were
always in the opposite direction. It is quite clear that the basic anti-
Semitic tendency and policy of the German Government spread over
all the departments and naturally, in any sphere—I mean, every
Government office somehow or other came into contact with these
matters. Our task in the Foreign Office—which could be proved in
thousands of cases if the documents would be submitted—was to
act as an intermediary in this sphere. I might say, we often had to
do things in accordance with this anti-Semitic policy, but we always
endeavored to prevent these measures and to reach some kind of
conciliatory settlement. In fact, the German Embassy was not
responsible for any anti-Semitic measures of any description in
France.
M. FAURE: I would like to draw your attention to another
document, Number RF-1210, a French document which is a second
report from Dannecker of 22 February 1942, Page 3 of the
document, Page 2 of the German text.
VON RIBBENTROP: I should like to say here and now that I do
not even know who Dannecker is. Perhaps you can give me some
information on that subject.
M. FAURE: I informed you that Dannecker was the person
responsible for Jewish affairs in France. As a matter of fact, these
documents were submitted a long time ago to the Tribunal and
communicated to the Defense.
At Page 3 of the document, which is Page 2 of the German,
there is a paragraph entitled, “Actions,” from which I read one
sentence: “Up to the present, three large-scale operations have been
undertaken against the Jews in Paris.”
 Now, if you will look at the last page of the document, the last
paragraph but one, we read as follows:
“Since the middle of 1941 there has been a conference
every Tuesday in which the following services participate:...
I, II, and III, military commands, administrative, police,
and economic sections; IV, German Embassy, Paris; V,
Einsatzstab Westen of Reichsleiter Rosenberg.
“The result of the conference is that—with very few
exceptions naturally called for by outsiders—the anti-Jewish
policy is being brought into one common line in the
occupied territory.”
This document clearly shows, does it not, that your
collaborators were in agreement with the anti-Jewish policy in the
occupied territories and that this policy included the arrest of Jews?
VON RIBBENTROP: May I reply to this statement? According to
my information, in this case, as so often happened in such cases,
the German ambassadors could have served as the branch offices.
They might have joined in with a view to guiding matters into
peaceful channels.
M. FAURE: I ask that you be shown French Document RF-1220,
which is a letter from the German Embassy of 27 June 1942,
addressed to the head of the Security Police and the SD in France.
Before asking you a question I would like to read with you the first
two paragraphs of this letter:
“Following my interview with Hauptsturmführer Dannecker
on the date of 27 June, during which he indicated that he
required that 50,000 Jews from the unoccupied zone be
deported to the East as soon as possible, and that on the
basis of notes sent by the Commissioner General for Jewish
Questions, Darquier de Pellepoix, under any circumstances
something had to be done for this, I reported the matter to
Ambassador Abetz and Minister Rahn immediately after the
discussion. The latter is to confer with President Laval this
afternoon, and he has promised me that he will speak to
 him at once about the handing over of these 50,000 Jews;
also he will insist that Darquier de Pellepoix be given
complete freedom of action according to the laws already
promulgated, and that the credits which have been
promised to him be handed to him immediately.”
Now, I should like to ask you a question. I ask you to answer as
briefly as possible: Were you aware of this démarche for the handing
over of these 50,000 Jews?
VON RIBBENTROP: No, I was not; I heard about it here for the
first time, when this document was, I believe, read out once before.
M. FAURE: If your collaborators Abetz, Rahn, and Zeitschel took
such action on this subject without informing you, was it not
because they thought they were acting in accordance with your
general directives?
VON RIBBENTROP: No, I do not think so; they worked very
independently in Paris, but I should like to repeat once again that I
am assuming responsibility for everything that these gentlemen have
done. I make a point of emphasizing this fact. I did not, however,
know anything about the proposed measure against the 50,000
Jews. And I do not even know whether it was ever put into effect,
and in what manner these gentlemen had implicated themselves in
the matter. The letter does not make it clear. I know only one thing,
and that is that my general instructions were to tread cautiously in
such matters and, if possible, to bridge difficulties according to my
own basic concepts and not to do anything to force matters but, on
the contrary, to smooth them over. I can say no more on the subject.
M. FAURE: During the interrogation of your witness Steengracht,
the British Prosecution produced a document, 3319-PS, under the
British Exhibit Number GB-287. I should like to refer to this
document for one question only.
In this document there is an account of a meeting, or a
congress, at which were present all the reporters on Jewish
questions from the various diplomatic missions in Europe. This
congress was held on 3 and 4 April 1944 in Krummhübel. It was
organized by Schleier. This was read the other day. You knew about
this congress, I suppose?
VON RIBBENTROP: No, this is the first time I have heard about
it. What congress was that? I have never heard that such a congress
ever took place. What kind of congress was it supposed to be?
M. FAURE: This document has already been submitted; it was a
congress held...
VON RIBBENTROP: I know only about one congress which I
asked the Führer not to hold. That I do know. But I know nothing at
all about a congress which did take place. Please give more detailed
information on the subject.
M. FAURE: The document was handed over to the Tribunal, and
I would like to ask you one question. You testified that you were
unaware of this meeting at which 31 persons, most of whom
belonged to the diplomatic service, were present. I will inform you
that during this meeting Embassy Counsellor Von Thadden made a
declaration which was reported in the following terms:
“The speaker explained the reasons why the Zionist
solution of Palestine and similar alternative solutions must
be rejected and why the Jews must be expatriated into the
Eastern territories.”
I suggest that this declaration made by an embassy counsellor
in the presence of 31 people belonging to your service voiced your
own attitude on these matters.
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, but I do not know in the very least
what you mean. May I, to begin with, please have some information
on the matter with which we are dealing? I do not understand it at
all. I have told you once before that I know nothing about any
congress except the one which I countermanded. That was an
international congress which was to have been held. I know nothing
of a congress of diplomats. Would you kindly place the document in
question at my disposal in order that I may make my reply?
M. FAURE: I do not intend to show you this document. I read
one sentence contained in this document, and I am merely asking
you if this phrase represents your opinion or not. Answer “yes” or
“no”.
VON RIBBENTROP: Then I must request you to repeat the
sentence. I wish to confirm again, however, that no congress took
place; it is not true.
DR. HORN: Mr. President, I object to that question, if the
opportunity is not afforded the defendant to give a truthful answer.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks the question was proper.
M. FAURE: I ask you whether this sentence which I have read
out to you corresponded to your opinion.
VON RIBBENTROP: May I ask you to repeat the sentence. I did
not understand it correctly.
M. FAURE: “The speaker explained the reasons why the
Zionist solution of Palestine and similar alternative solutions
must be rejected and why the Jews must be expatriated to
the Eastern territories.”
Was that your thesis?
VON RIBBENTROP: No, it was not.
M. FAURE: Was your attention drawn to the fact that the Italian
authorities in France protected the Jews against persecution by
Germans?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes. I recollect that there was something of
the kind but I no longer remember exactly.
M. FAURE: Did you approach the Italian Government on this
subject?
VON RIBBENTROP: I recollect that on one occasion I spoke
either to Mussolini or to Count Ciano about certain acts of sabotage,
espionage, or something of that kind which had occurred in France
and against which one would have to be on the alert, and in this
connection, I believe, the Jewish problem was also discussed.
M. FAURE: I ask that you be shown Document D-734, which I
would like to submit as French Exhibit Number RF-1501. This note is
headed:
 “Account of a conference between the Reich Foreign
Minister and the Duce in the Palazzo Venezia in the
presence of Ambassadors Von Mackensen and Alfieri and
the State Secretary Bastianini on the 25th of February
1943.”
I would like to read with you the second paragraph on this page:
“Further, the Reich Foreign Minister dealt with the Jewish
question. The Duce was aware that Germany had taken a
radical position with regard to the treatment of the Jews.
As a result of the development of the war in Russia she had
come to an even greater clarification of this question. All
Jews had been transported from Germany and from the
territories occupied by her to reservations in the East. He,
the Reich Foreign Minister, knew that this measure was
described as cruel, particularly by enemies, but it was
necessary in order to be able to carry the war through to a
successful conclusion.”
I shall not read the following paragraph, but the fourth:
“France also had taken measures against the Jews which
were extremely useful. They were only temporary, because
here, too, final solution would be the deportation of the
Jews to the East. He, the Reich Foreign Minister, knew that
in Italian military circles, and occasionally among German
military people too, the Jewish problem was not sufficiently
appreciated. It was only in this way that he could
understand an order of the Comando Supremo which, in
the Italian occupation zone of France had canceled
measures taken against the Jews by the French authorities
acting under German influence. The Duce contested the
accuracy of this report and traced it back to the French
tactics of causing dissension between Germany and Italy.”
Now I shall ask you a question: A short while ago you told us
that you wanted to make all the Jews emigrate to Madagascar. Is
Madagascar in the Eastern reservations mentioned in the document?
VON RIBBENTROP: About what? I have not understood.
M. FAURE: You were talking in this document of deporting Jews
to the reservations in the Eastern territories, and a short while ago
you spoke to us of settling the Jews in Madagascar. Is Madagascar
meant here?
VON RIBBENTROP: No, that was the Führer’s plan. This
document refers to the fact that a large-scale espionage system had
been discovered, I believe, in France. The Führer sent me while I
was on a journey to Italy and told me to speak to Mussolini and see
to it that in cases of Jews involved in these acts of sabotage and
espionage, the Italian Government or the Italian Army did not
intervene to prevent this measure. Also I should like to state
definitely that I knew, and it was also the Führer’s plan, that the
European Jews were to be resettled on a large-scale either in
Madagascar, North Africa, or in reservations in the East. This was
generally known in Germany. That is all that we are concerned with
here, and I also knew that some very unpleasant things had
occurred at that time and that the Führer was convinced that all of
them could be attributed to Jewish organizations in the south of
France, I believe. I now recollect very well that at the time I
discussed the matter with Mussolini and begged him to adopt
suitable measures since these Jews were furnishing all the
information to the English and American Intelligence Services. At
least that was the information which the Führer was constantly
receiving.
M. FAURE: You said, did you not, that all Jews were to be
deported to the Eastern reservations? Is that correct? Please reply
“yes” or “no”.
VON RIBBENTROP: Whether I was in favor of it?
M. FAURE: Germany deported all the Jews from German
territory and territories occupied by her to Eastern reservations. That
is true, is it not?
 VON RIBBENTROP: I do not know the contents of the document
in detail. I do not know what I myself said in detail. But at any rate I
knew that the Führer had ordered that the Jews of the occupied
territories in Europe were to be transported to reservations in the
East and resettled there. That I did know. The carrying out of these
measures, however, was not my task as Minister for Foreign Affairs
of the Foreign Office, but I did know that it was the Führer’s wish. In
this connection, I remember that I received an order from him to
discuss the matter with the Italian Government so that they too
would introduce corresponding measures regarding the Jewish
problem. That applied to other countries as well, where we had to
send telegrams quite frequently, so that these countries should solve
the Jewish question.
THE PRESIDENT: M. Faure, did you read to the witness the
second paragraph beginning: “Further, the Reich Foreign Minister
dealt with the Jewish question...”?
M. FAURE: Yes, Mr. President, the second paragraph. That is the
paragraph which I have just been reading.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you read the third one, but I did not
know you read the second one too. You read the second one too,
did you? Very well.
M. FAURE: Yes, I read it as well, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: The document is a new document, is it not?
M. FAURE: Yes, Mr. President, it is a document which I would
like to submit under the Exhibit Number RF-1501. It belongs to the
“D” series; it is D-734 of the British document books.
THE PRESIDENT: Has the defendant said whether he admits
that it is a substantially accurate account of the conversation?
VON RIBBENTROP: I can no longer say for certain, Mr.
President; what I did say at the time, I know only, and gather, from
this document, from these words, that the Jews were spreading
news from British and American sources. I can remember that at
that time a large espionage and sabotage organization was in
existence, and that this organization was causing a great deal of
trouble in France, and that the Führer ordered me to discuss the
matter with Mussolini since the Italians were opposing certain
measures we had introduced in France. I spoke to Mussolini and told
him that the Führer was of the opinion that, where this question was
concerned, we should have to come to a definite understanding.
THE PRESIDENT: I think, Defendant, you have already told us
that. The question that I asked was whether you agreed that it was
a substantially accurate account of the conversation.
VON RIBBENTROP: I consider that in certain points the report is
incorrect, but fundamentally the position was as I have just
explained it.
M. FAURE: Now, you also spoke about this question with Horthy,
did you not?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes. I had to confer several times with the
Hungarian Government so as to persuade them to do something
about the Jewish problem. The Führer was extremely insistent on
this point. I therefore discussed the question repeatedly with the
Hungarian Ambassador and the question was primarily to centralize
the Jews somehow or other in some part of Budapest, I think it was
slightly outside Budapest or in—as a matter of fact, I do not know
Budapest very well—in any case, it was somewhere in Budapest
itself. That was the first point. And the second point dealt with the
removal of the Jews from influential Government posts, since it had
been proved that Jewish influence in these departments was
sufficiently authoritative to bring Hungary to a separate peace.
M. FAURE: The document relating to your conversation or one
of the conversations which you had with Horthy has already been
produced. It was that of 17 April 1943. It is Document D-736, which
was submitted as GB-283.
During the interrogation of your witness, Schmidt, the British
prosecutor asked this witness if he admitted having compiled this
account, and this was confirmed by Schmidt. This note bears the
following remark at the bottom of the first paragraph: “The Foreign
Minister declared that the Jews were either to be exterminated or
sent to concentration camps. There was no other solution.”
 You did say that, did you not?
VON RIBBENTROP: I definitely did not say it in those words. But
I would like to reply as follows:
It was apparently an account prepared by “Minister” Schmidt, as
was his habit, some days after a long discussion between the Führer
and Horthy. I have already said that the Führer had repeatedly
charged me to talk to Horthy, to the Hungarian Government, to the
Ambassador, in order to reach a solution of the Jewish question. At
the time when Horthy visited the Führer the Führer emphasized the
question to him in a very irritable manner, and I remember perfectly
that subsequent to this discussion I talked the matter over with
“Minister” Schmidt, saying that I, strictly speaking, had not quite
understood the Führer.
The remark mentioned was definitely not made in this way. M.
Horthy had apparently said that he could not, after all, beat the Jews
to death. It is possible, since there would have been no question of
that in any case, that in this connection I did endeavor to persuade
Horthy to do something or other at once about the Jewish question
in Budapest, namely, that he should undertake now the
centralization which the Führer had already wished to carry out for a
long time. My objection or my interpolation may have referred to this
question.
I must add that the situation, at that time, was as follows: We
had been receiving repeated indications from Himmler, to the effect
that Himmler wished to handle the Jewish situation in Hungary
himself. I did not want this, since, one way or another, it would
probably have created political difficulties abroad.
Consequently, acting on the wish of the Führer, who was
extremely obstinate on this subject, I, as is known, repeatedly
attempted to smooth matters over and, at the same time, pin the
Hungarians down to do something about it in any case. Therefore, if,
from a long conversation, some remark has been extracted and
summarized in brief, and contains some such statement, it certainly
does not mean that I wished the Jews to be beaten to death. It was
100 percent contrary to my personal convictions.