EVALUATING THE IMPACT OF INTERFAITH DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE MUSLIM AMERICAN

SOCIETY AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, ESPECIALLY THROUGH THE FOCOLARE

MOVEMENT, FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF INDIGENOUS MUSLIM AMERICANS

A Thesis
submitted to the Faculty of
The School of Continuing Studies
and of
The Graduate School of Arts and Sciences
in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of
Master of Arts in Liberal Studies

By

Tariq S. Najee-ullah, B.S.

Georgetown University Washington, D.C.

October 30, 2017
Copyright 2017 by Tariq S. Najee-ullah
All Rights Reserved

ii
EVALUATING THE IMPACT OF INTERFAITH DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE MUSLIM AMERICAN
SOCIETY AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, ESPECIALLY THROUGH THE FOCOLARE
MOVEMENT, FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF INDIGENOUS MUSLIM AMERICANS

Tariq S. Najee-ullah, B.S.

MALS Mentor: John Borelli, Ph.D.

ABSTRACT

In this age of intense polarization between liberal freedom and political

correctness, on the one hand, and the demagoguery of religious extremists and

politicians, on the other hand, there is unending argument, strife, and brinkmanship

threatening the peace of our civil society. Religion is frequently used to polarize

parties instead of bringing humanity together and invoking the better angels of human

nature. Rather than helping bring agreement via dialogue, religion is used to create

enemies. Religion is being used to wage war and evoke fears instead of establishing

peace and building fruitful alliances. Interfaith dialogue represents a meaningful way

to bring parties together peacefully in a way that resolves conflicts and creates

friendships. Additionally, interfaith dialogue allows for spiritual sharing and spiritual

companionship which opens pathways of communication that lead to opportunities for

greater mutual respect and shared understanding.

A July 2004 Special Report by the United States Institute of Peace presents a

method for evaluating interfaith dialogue programs. It suggests a theory of social

iii
change whereby teachers involved in dialogue can impact change in the society.1 This

thesis will test this hypothesis by conducting an analysis of interfaith dialogue between

The Muslim American Society and The Catholic Church, especially through the

Focolare Movement. The Muslim American Society was the name of the largest

indigenous Muslim American community led by the late Muslim leader, Imam Warith

Deen Mohammed.2 Focolare is an international Catholic and predominantly lay

community founded and led by the late renowned leader, Chiara Lubich. Specifically,

this thesis will apply the suggested analysis to assess and evaluate the meetings and

interfaith dialogue between representatives of the Roman Catholic Church and Imam

Warith Deen Mohammed and his associates.

The foundational concept for this thesis is to analyze material resulting from

this dialogue drawn from articles reporting and evaluating the meetings of the

dialogues and from the testimonials of the participants. This analysis will allow

scholars to understand why the dialogue was successful. Specifically, source materials

for this thesis are drawn from articles written that historically document the meetings,

programs, speeches, and nature of the relationship between the Imam, his associates,

and different representatives of the Catholic Church. A number of the articles are

written by my thesis mentor, John Borelli. Additional sources include articles from

1
Renee Garfinkel, "What Works? Evaluating Interfaith Dialogue Programs," United States
Institute of Peace, July 13, 2004, (accessed June 2016, https://www.usip.org/publications/2004/07/what-
works-evaluating-interfaith-dialogue-programs).
2
Muslim American Society was the name of the community association of Muslim American
mosques led by Imam Warith Deen Mohammed at the time of the interfaith dialogues, which are the
subject of this research. After a naming dispute with an unrelated non-profit organization , Imam
Mohammed formally changed the name to the American Society of Muslims.

iv
Muslim Journal, transcripts of lectures by Imam Warith Deen Mohammed, interviews

of participants, as well as those who participated in subsequent interfaith dialogues

between the communities.3 Using the special report of the United States Institute of

Peace to provide a methodology for evaluation, this thesis will apply this analytical

method to the various meetings and dialogues between the two general parties.

Conclusions and implications will be drawn from the analysis.

3
These were informal interviews conducted with verbal consent from the participants. The
verbal consents included how the participants wished to be identified. Edited transcripts of these
interviews are found in the appendices.

v
 ACKNOWLEDGMENTS

I am thankful to Almighty G’d, Allah, for the inspiration and providing me with the

fortitude of commitment to complete this task. I am thankful to my parents for raising

me with a love of community and strength of faith. To my family and relatives, thank

you for the encouragement. I thank Sister Nuurah Muhammad for teaching me to take

religious studies seriously. I am thankful to the remarkable community here at

Georgetown University who challenged me in ways that forced me to grow. I met

some amazing faculty members, colleagues, and friends along the way. Special thanks

to John Voll and Yvonne Haddad for encouraging me to pursue my passion in my

research and guiding me in their courses. Thank you for your friendship. A

tremendous thanks to John Esposito and Jonathan Brown for their leadership at the

Prince Al-Waleed Bin Talal Center for Christian-Muslim Understanding. Thank you

ACMU staff for all of your help. To Emad Shahin, thank you for introducing me to the

world of political science; you are much appreciated! We pray for change to come to

Egypt and that you have a safe return home. To Patricia Biermayr-Jenzano who taught

me qualitative research methods, thank you so much. To Mohammed Ahmad, thank

you for reigniting my passion for reading Arabic literature and speaking fusha! My

prayers are with you and your family in Syria. To Ori Soltes, thank you for the

brilliance of your intellect. I appreciate your help in understanding the great historical

arch of the Middle East. Let’s keep in touch. Thank you to the School of Continuing

Studies and the entire Master of Arts in Liberal Studies program staff. Thank you,

Dean Anne Ridder, for everything. To all the librarians, staff, researchers, student

vi
volunteers, classmates and colleagues, thank you. To my employer, thank you for the

flexibility to pursue this dream. To Imam Earl El-Amin, Laila Mohammed, Dr. Mikal

Ramadan, Imam Ronald Shaheed, and the late Amatullah Sharif, my interview

subjects, thank you for your time and feedback; you helped us make history. Thank

you to Ayesha Mustafa and Muslim Journal staff. Thank you to Mr. Wallace

Muhammad II and the offices of The Mosque Cares, WDM Publications, and The

Ministry of Imam W. D. Mohammed for selling the books and publications necessary

to complete this work. To the community masajid that I have called home, my

interfaith colleagues and supporters, thank you for helping to finance the completion of

this education process. We did this together. Special thanks to the International

Institute of Islamic Thought. We genuinely appreciate your strong financial support! A

very special thank you to my mentor and thesis advisor, John Borelli. Thank you so

much! I am in your debt! I dedicate this thesis to my late father-in-law, Imam Maajid

Faheem ‘Ali. Thank you for your help and encouragement. It pains me that you are

not here physically to witness its completion. Your life was a living testament to the

true power of faith and dialogue following the model Imam Mohammed demonstrated

for you. I pray that we are able to live up to that example. This thesis project and five-

year graduate school journey was made possible because of the TREMENDOUS

support of my loving wife, Muslimah and the patient understanding of my three young

children: Tanzeelah, Yusriyyah, and Mubeen ‘Ali.

Thank you,

Tariq S. Najee-ullah

vii
 TABLE OF CONTENTS

COPYRIGHT…...……………………………………….…………………………….ii

ABSTRACT……………………………………….…………………………………..iii

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS……………………………………….……………………vi

LIST OF ILLUSTRATIONS………………………….……………………………...xi

INTRODUCTION……………………………………….…………………………….1

Review of Related Literature Summary……………………………………..…3

The Procedure………………………………………………………………….4

CHAPTER 1: HISTORICAL CONTEXT OF CATHOLIC-MUSLIM RELATIONS..6

The Islamic Genetic Memory among Enslaved Africans in America….………6

Enslaved Africans Experiences with American Christianity…………….……10

African Americans and The Catholic Church: A Brief History .......................11

African Americans in the Twentieth Century: Social Conditions, Civil Rights

Movement..……………………...………………………………………..…...16

Pope Paul VI and The Second Vatican Council………………….....………...19

The Black Muslim Movement: The Nation of Islam, Hon. Elijah Muhammad,

Malcolm X, and Muhammad Ali..……….........................................................23

The Year 1965: The Raging Sixties, A Changing America…………………...28

CHAPTER 2: IMAM WARITH DEEN MOHAMMED, A MAN OF PEACE AND

DIALOGUE..………………………………………………………………………….32

viii
 Raised Inside The Nation of Islam……………...……………………………..33

Gradual Movement Towards Mainstream Al-Islam…………………………..36

Organizational Challenges and Legal Problems………………………...…….37

Early Progresses……………………………………………………………….39

Imam Mohammed Embraces Interfaith Dialogue……………………………..46

Imam Mohammed Challenges Racial Religious Thinking with C.R.A.I.D…..47

An Ever-Growing Community………………………………………………..49

Imam Mohammed Receives Political Recognition…………………………...50

Imam Mohammed on Desert Storm………………………………………..…51

Imam Mohammed and Pope John Paul II…………………………………….52

Reconciliation with Minister Farrakhan………………………………………54

Post 9/11 Insights……………………………………………………………...54

Muslim American Society and Beyond…………………………….….……...55

CHAPTER 3: THE DIALOGUES………………………….…………………………59

The First Meeting: August 9, 1995…………………………………..………..61

Getting Acquainted: Meetings 1995-1996………...……………………..…...62

First Visit to the Vatican: October 1996………………...………………..…...64

Building Relationships with The Focolare Movement: 1997-1998……….......66

Imam Mohammed Speaks at the Vatican before Pope John Paul II: October

1999………...…………………………………………………………………68

A Growing Friendship: Imam Mohammed and Chiara Lubich

1999-2000……………………………………………………………………..70

ix
CHAPTER 4: EVALUTING THE DIALOGUES ………..…………………………..72

Research Methodology…………………………………………..……………72

Developing Qualitative Research Questions….………………..……………..74

Pope John Paul II: His Holiness’ approach to dialogue with Muslims………..75

Imam Warith Deen Mohammed’s remarks on the dialogue………………..…77

Chiara Lubich’s remarks on the dialogue………………………….….............81

Analysis……………………………………………………………….……….84

CHAPTER 5: CONCLUSIONS………………....……………………………………86

Findings……………………………………………………………………….86

Thoughts from Members of the Catholic Church …………..…..……86

Thoughts from Focolare Members …………….. ……………………88

Thoughts from Members of the Muslim American Society …….…....91

Future Implications ………………………………………………………….102

ILLUSTRATIONS………………………………………………………………..….104

APPENDICES………………………………...………………………………...…...117

Appendix 1: Qualitative Research Questions…………………….. ………………..117

Appendix 2: Edited Interview Transcript of Sister Amatullah Sharif………………120

Edited Interview Transcript of Dr. Mikal Ramadan………………....………134

Edited Interview Transcript of Sister Laila Mohammed…………...………..148

Edited Interview Transcript of Imam Ronald Shaheed………………………166

Edited Interview Transcript of Imam Earl El-Amin…………………………192

x
Appendix 3: The Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian
Religions………………………………………………………………..……223

BIBLIOGRAPHY……………………………………...…………………………….228

xi
 LIST OF ILLUSTRATIONS

Illustration 1. Nation of Islam Booklet Accomplishments of The Muslims circa

1970s…………………………………………………………………………………104

Illustration 2. Nation of Islam Malcolm and Wallace, Muhammad Ali circa 1960s…105

Illustration 3. Nation of Islam The Muslim Program circa 1960s…………………...105

Illustration 4. Nation of Islam The Teachings of W.D. Muhammad 1976…………...106
Illustration 5. New Nation of Islam Community Flag 1976…………………………107

Illustration 6. Teachings of W. D. Muhammad, 1976………………………………..108

Illustration 7. Teachings of W. D. Muhammad, 1976………………………………..109

Illustration 8. Nation of Islam The Early Years Photo Collage…………………...…110

Illustration 9. Bilalian News Cover with President Carter, 1977…………………….111

Illustration 10. Carrying the American Flag, 1977…………………………………...111

Illustration 11. Imam Mohammed with President Nelson Mandela…………………112

Illustration 12. Imam Mohammed with Pope John Paul II. October 1999…………..113

Illustration 13. Imam Mohammed with Chiara Lubich……………………………...114

Illustration 14. Imam Mohammed with Chiara Lubich on May 18, 1997 at Masjid

Malcolm Shabazz. Harlem, New York………………..…………………………….114

Illustration 15. Muslim Journal Covers highlighting the Muslim American Society

relationship with the Focolare Movement and the Catholic Church. Circa 2000s. ....115

Illustration 16. Muslim Journal Article Highlighting Imam Earl El-Amin meeting Pope

Francis. March 18, 2016………………………. ……………………………………115

xii
Illustration 17. Muslim Journal Covers Highlighting Interfaith Dialogue led by

members of the Muslim American Society. Circa 2000s………………………...…116

xiii
 INTRODUCTION

In this age of intense polarization between liberal freedom and political

correctness, on the one hand, and the demagoguery of religious extremists and

politicians, on the other hand, there is unending argument, strife, and brinkmanship

threatening the peace of our civil society. Religion is frequently used to polarize

parties instead of bringing humanity together and invoking the better angels of human

nature. Rather than helping bring agreement via dialogue, religion is used to create

enemies. Religion is being used to wage war and evoke fears instead of establishing

peace and building fruitful alliances. Interfaith dialogue represents a meaningful way

to bring parties together peacefully in a way that resolves conflicts and creates

friendships. Additionally, interfaith dialogue allows for spiritual sharing and spiritual

companionship which opens pathways of communication that lead to opportunities for

greater mutual respect and shared understanding.

The late leader of the Muslim American Society, prominent religious scholar,

and philosophical theologian, Imam Warith Deen Mohammed (1933-2008), was

among the most important figures regarding establishing Al-Islam in America for the

last hundred years.1 While he is most well-known for bringing the largest contingent

1
Muslim American Society was the name of the community association of Muslim
American mosques led by Imam Warith Deen Mohammed at the time of the interfaith dialogues, which
are the subject of this research. After a naming dispute with an unrelated non-profit organization, Imam
Mohammed formally changed the name to the American Society of Muslims. In September 2003, Imam
Mohammed resigned as the leader of the American Society of Muslims. He continued to teach through
his Chicago-based ministry and charitable organization, The Mosque Cares until his death in September
2008. Today, the Mosque Cares is led by Imam Mohammed’s son, Wallace Mohammed II. Wallace
Mohammed II continues the annual conventions, programs, and charitable works of his father. In
addition to supporting these annual efforts, the community formally known as the American Society of
Muslims now operates as an independent association mosques. Today, there is national regionally-based

1
of African Americans into the mainstream Muslim community worldwide, his impact

on American Islamic culture is immeasurable. He laid much of the foundation for

what Muslim immigrants to America and their descendants are now beginning to

embrace more regularly today in response to the intensely xenophobic political climate

of what the media designates as “Trump’s America.” What is lesser known is that

beginning in 1995, Imam Mohammed did something astounding and profound in the

world of interfaith dialogue. Imam Mohammed, along with key members in his

association, began building a relationship with the Catholic Church that would

culminate in a highly visible relationship with Pope John Paul II.

In early twentieth century, the Catholic Church had a history of favorable and

respectful scholarship relating to Islam and Muslims. After the Second Vatican

Council in 1965, the Church softened its messaging and began direct outreach to

Muslims worldwide. The series of meetings and dialogues with the Muslim American

Society was one of the most successful connections made with Muslim Americans at

that time. Relationships were established between the Muslim American Society and

various organizations within the Catholic Church including the Archdiocese of

Baltimore, the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, and with the Pontifical

Council for Interreligious Relations. Relationships were also established with Catholic

lay communities, especially the Focolare Movement. The Focolare Movement,

leadership. Consensus is generated by a body of Imams and representatives called the Convenors of
Imams Associated with the Community of Imam W. Deen Mohammed. This group of Imams and
representatives make press releases, statements, community announcements regarding religious
holidays, and convenes to address community concerns.

2
founded by the late Chiara Lubich, was the most significant burgeoning relationship.

The groundbreaking interfaith meetings conducted over this five-year period have yet

to be academically researched and evaluated fully.

A July 2004 Special Report by the United States Institute of Peace presents a

method for evaluating interfaith dialogue programs. It suggests a theory of social

change whereby teachers involved in dialogue can impact change in the society.2 This

thesis will test this hypothesis by conducting an analysis of interfaith dialogue between

the Muslim American Society and the Catholic Church, especially through the

Focolare Movement. Focolare is an international Catholic and predominantly lay

community founded and led by the late renowned leader, Chiara Lubich. Specifically,

this thesis will apply the suggested analysis to assess and evaluate the meetings and

interfaith dialogue between representatives of the Roman Catholic Church and Imam

Warith Deen Mohammed and his associates.

Review of Related Literature

The foundational concept for this thesis is to analyze material resulting from

this dialogue drawn from articles reporting and evaluating the meetings of the

dialogues and from the testimonials of the participants. This analysis will allow

scholars to understand why the dialogue was successful. Specifically, source materials

for this thesis are drawn from articles written that historically document the meetings,

programs, speeches, and nature of the relationship between the Imam, his associates,

2
Renee Garfinkel, "What Works? Evaluating Interfaith Dialogue Programs," United States
Institute of Peace, July 13, 2004, (accessed June 2016, https://www.usip.org/publications/2004/07/what-
works-evaluating-interfaith-dialogue-programs).

3
and different representatives of the Catholic Church. A number of the articles are

written by my thesis mentor, John Borelli. Additional sources include articles from

Muslim Journal, transcripts of lectures by Imam Warith Deen Mohammed, interviews

of participants, as well as those who participated in subsequent interfaith dialogues

between the communities.3

Procedure

Our thesis, based on this research, is interfaith dialogue can create lasting

positive relationships across faith communities based on spiritual sharing and spiritual

companionship. Our research tests this hypothesis by conducting an evaluation of the

impact of interfaith dialogue between the Muslim American Society, the Catholic

Church, especially the Focolare Movement based on articles written documenting the

meetings, programs, speeches, and nature of the relationship between the Muslim

American Society and different representatives of the Catholic Church including

Focolare. Using the special report of the United States Institute of Peace to provide a

methodology for evaluation, this thesis will apply this analytical method to the various

meetings and dialogues between the two general parties. Conclusions and implications

will be drawn from the analysis.

Specifically, the research methodology will apply the analysis to assess and

evaluate the meetings and interfaith dialogue between the Roman Catholic Church and

Imam Warith Deen Mohammed. In order to measure accurately the impact and

3
These were informal interviews conducted with verbal consent from the participants. The
verbal consents included how the participants wished to be identified. Edited transcripts of these
interviews are found in the appendices.

4
effectiveness of these dialogues, qualitative research questions were developed based

on the July 2004 Special Report by the United States Institute of Peace and best

practices of the latest qualitative research and evaluation methods.

After reviewing relevant literature on the subject matter, it was determined that

the focus of the research should be on prominent members of the indigenous Muslim

American community of Imam W. D. Mohammed since very little had been written

from this perspective in academic publications. Five well known members of the

indigenous Muslim American community of Imam W. D. Mohammed were

interviewed. They agreed to have their interviews recorded and transcribed for

research purposes. 4 The transcripts were coded and evaluated to provide results and

conclusions that measured the impact and effectiveness of the dialogue. Future

implications of the research was also considered.

Interviews were conducted with Imam Earl El-Amin, Imam Ronald Shaheed,

the late Sister Amatullah Sharif, Sister Laila Muhammad, and Dr. Mikal Ramadan.

Using the special report of the United States Institute of Peace to provide a

methodology for evaluation, this thesis will apply this analytical method to the various

meetings and dialogues between the two general parties. Conclusions and implications

will be drawn from the analysis.

4
These were informal interviews conducted with verbal consent from the participants. The
verbal consent included how the participants wished to be identified. Edited transcripts of these
interviews are found in the appendices.

5
 CHAPTER 1

HISTORICAL CONTEXT FOR CATHOLIC-MUSLIM RELATIONS

This chapter provides a brief history of the evolution of the Catholic Church’s

views on engaging with Muslims in the twentieth century. This chapter also provides a

historical context and background of the community of African Americans that would

become the Muslim members of the future Muslim American Society. In doing so,

this chapter offers a brief historical narrative of time spanning the arrival of enslaved

West Africans in America with a focus on the lives and conditions of African

Americans in the twentieth century. This narrative also addresses aspects of the

freedom struggle of enslaved Africans, the Civil Rights Movement, and other efforts

for liberation towards realizing greater freedoms for African Americans. Additionally,

this chapter briefly discusses the history of African American Catholic communities in

America. Finally, this chapter points to the significant foundation for future dialogue

provided by the Catholic Church’s groundbreaking Second Vatican Council. Vatican

II would prove to be a landmark in shaping the future of Catholic-Muslim

relationships.

The Islamic Genetic Memory among Enslaved Africans in America

African Americans arrived in the Americas during the trans-Atlantic slave

trade, which enslaved ten million plus Africans and subjugated them to the peculiar

institution of slavery in the Western European colonies in the Americas and

6
Caribbean.1 Allan Austin projected that at least ten percent of the enslaved were West

African Muslims.2 African Muslims enslaved in the Americas brought with them a

rich legacy of religious, cultural and literary traditions and traces of advanced

civilizations.3 According to Rudolph Ware, there was a rich legacy of Islamic

education, “embodied knowledge,” and a sense of history that survived the slave trade

and continues to thrive in West Africa today.4 Embodied knowledge is a term Ware

uses to describe the West African classical Islamic tradition that true knowledge is held

in the human body as a flesh made Word in contrast to the Christian teaching of Word

being made flesh through Jesus Christ. 5 This Muslim legacy found its way into the

culture of enslaved Africans in various forms based on findings from both Austin and

Diouf.

In many ways, there existed an Islamic “genetic memory” that survived

subconsciously amongst the descendants of the enslaved Africans even after memories

of West African Islamic culture had long passed. For examples, the highest priority to

education for the future as well as the collective community responsibility for

1
John Hope Franklin and Alfred A. Moss, From Slavery to Freedom: A History of African
Americans, 7th ed. (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1994), 41-42.

2
Allan Austin, Critical Studies On Black Life and Culture, ed. Henry Gates, vol. 5, African
Muslims in Antebellum America: a Sourcebook (New York: Garland Pub., 1984), 35-36. Austin
presumes ten percent of West Africans sent to America between 1711 and 1808 were Muslim.
3
Sylviane A. Diouf, Servants of Allah: African Muslims Enslaved in the Americas, 15th ed.
(New York: New York University Press, 2013), 23-24,99,111,159.
4
Rudolph T. Ware, The Walking Qurʼan: Islamic Education, Embodied Knowledge, and
History in West Africa, Islamic Civilization and Muslim Networks (North Carolina: The University of
North Carolina Press, 2014), 242-254.
5
Ibid., 253-254.

7
education maybe an innate legacy from the West African Qur’an schools and Islamic

institutions. 6 This cultural tradition survived in the establishment of the Negro normal

schools, historically black colleges and universities, and the community organs of

financial support for these institutions, such as, the “Black church,” the United Negro

College Fund, and other fundraising efforts that garner support from the collective

community of African Americans even today.

Great Muslim abolitionists and revolutionary anti-colonist fighters of the

Senegambia region, Sulaymaan Baal and Abdul Qadir Kan among others, established a

genetic precedent of African religious teachers leading revolutionary movements. 7

Nat Turner, Denmark Vesey, Gabriel Prosser, later Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.,

Malcolm X, and Elijah Muhammad continued in this same vein. In fact, many of the

ideals embraced by educators, freedom fighters and civil rights leaders are similar to

the ideals of the West African Muslim educational societies. There persisted a

resiliency, efficacy and fearless determination to accomplish aims. 8

A Muslim legacy remains, perhaps inherited subconsciously by descendants of

enslaved Africans in America. Author and scholar Sylviane Diouf writes, “Islam

brought by enslaved West Africans has not survived. It has left traces; it has

contributed to the culture and history of the continents; but its conscious practice is no

6
Ibid., 242-254.
7
Ibid., 110-162.
8
Ibid., 110-162.

8
more.”9 Diouf argues that the imbalance of men to women brought over during the

slave trade, a war on literacy among slaves, and an aggressive suppression of tribal

religious expression as reasons for this lack of conscious survival among descendants

of enslaved African Muslims.10 Diouf also notes that while not explicitly Islam, many

practices survived in the musical melodies, songs, spiritual rites, cultural rituals, words

and phrases amongst descendants who practice Christianity, Vodun, Santeria,

Candomble, and other rites. 11

Proto Islamic movements, like the Moorish Science Temple of Noble Drew Ali

in 1913 and the Temple of Islam by Master Fard Muhammad in 1931, led to Islamic

revival among descendants of enslaved Africans in America. Their teachings would

blend Islamic language and aspects of Islamic rituals with black liberation theology

echoed in Biblical teachings that resonated with African America Negroes of the time.

Diouf cautions against drawing a direct linear connection between the unconscious

survival of derivative Islamic practices of enslaved West Africans and theses proto

Islamic movements as “no hard evidence so far shows any direct connection between

the two groups.”12 Intangible connections and similarities are apparent between the

enslaved African Muslims of the past and the African American Muslims today, such

as the presence of a tenacious spirit and determination for community success,

9
Diouf, Servants of Allah, 251.
10
Ibid., 252-257.
11
Ibid., 259-274.
12
Ibid., 278-279.

9
relentless pursuit of independent education, striving to retain identity despite dire

circumstance, and even the presence of veiled women and turban wearing men. 13

Even so, no clear correlation between the blood descendants of the known enslaved

West African Muslims and African Americans that joined these early movements can

be clearly historically demonstrated. 14

Enslaved Africans Experiences with American Christianity

As Diouf notes, Africans were early and significant members of the Church

since Christ Jesus walked and preached in ancient Palestine. Early Coptic and Ethiopic

Christians were responsible for preserving much of the early Gospels and sacred

traditions that were at risk during Roman prosecutions of the early Christian Church.

Stories of African Christians, monastics, and holy men and women constitute early

historical writings. Christianity spread southward from Ethiopia into parts of West

Africa through trade and various expeditions. It is evident that West Africans had a

familiarity with Christianity and the existence of African Christian communities. West

African communities held strong spiritual and religious beliefs manifested in their

cultural traditions. This deeply religious devotion was even evident in the community

of enslaved Africans who populated American plantations. On the plantations,

enslaved Africans expressed a rich blend of sacred religious traditions with The

Christian religious practices they were often forced to adopt in America. Rich Negro

13
Ibid., 277-283.
14
Ibid., 277-283.

10
spirituals embodied historic rhythmic West African chants and dhikrs, but now

expressed in English. 15

This mixing of African spiritual expression through Biblical Christian theology

was best embodied in the black preacher. Accompanying the preacher were musicians

or singers drawing the congregation into lively hymns. Plantation owners used the

leadership of the black preacher to quell rebellions, to maintain order, and to provide

spiritual instruction that demanded strict obedience of slaves to their earthly masters.

As black preachers grew in their understanding of the Bible, it sparked a desire for

justice, freedom, and rebellion against their oppressors. The infamous Nat Turner

insurrection, the most well-known slave revolt in American history, was led by the

black preacher Nat Turner. Black Christianity produced a type of liberation theology

that contributed to the protest movement and would later fuel the civil rights

movement.16

African Americans and the Catholic Church: A Brief History

Having been primarily evangelized by Protestants, the majority of the enslaved

Africans embraced Protestant denominations of Christianity. What is not often

discussed is the significant black Catholic community which started with the enslaved

Africans in America.17 The Maryland colony provides a narrative example. A

15
Ibid., 259-274.
16
Joseph Washington, Jr., Black Religion: The Negro and Christianity in the United States
(Boston: Beacon Press, 1964).
17
Cyprian Davis, “Brothers and Sisters To Us: The Never-Ending Story,” America, (March 31,
1990), 319-21, 334.

11
Catholic Lord presided over Maryland. Catholic planters in the colony purchased

enslaved Africans to work their plantations. Jesuit priests, inspired by Saint Peter

Claver’s work with enslaved Africans in Colombia, sought to convert the enslaved to

Catholicism. Georgetown University was founded by the first bishop of Baltimore,

John Carroll. Many of Georgetown’s enslaved Africans embraced the Catholic faith.

Catholic faith thrived in Georgetown’s community of free blacks. Slave

owners who allowed their slaves both self-manumission and opportunities to earn

personal funds, by hiring themselves out to others for pay, created avenues for some

slaves to earn enough funds to buy their freedom.18 After securing freedom, free

blacks would remain in the area as skilled laborers for hire earning enough money to

purchase the freedom of their family members. Significant pre-Civil War era

communities of free blacks existed in Baltimore, Georgetown, New Orleans, and Saint

Louis among other Catholic colonies. 19 Saint Augustine’s Parish, in Washington DC,

was founded in 1858 by a Catholic community of free blacks and is one of the oldest

black parishes in the United States.20

18
Morris J. MacGregor, The Emergence of a Black Catholic Community: St. Augustine's in
Washington (Washington, DC: Catholic University of America Press, ©1999), 1-39.
19
Ibid., 5-36.
20
“Saint Augustine Catholic Church - Our History,” Saint Augustine Catholic Church, accessed
October 17, 2017, https://saintaugustine-dc.org/history.

12
 Benedictine Fr. Cyprian Davis, primary author of black Catholic history, left a

tremendous legacy of work and literature at the time of his passing in May 2015.21 In

his article, “Brothers and Sisters To Us: The Never-Ending Story,” published in

America, Fr. Davis discussed the emergence of a “congress movement” of black

Catholics at the end of the nineteenth century.22 Lincoln Charles Vallé, a Negro

Catholic, had written an article for America in 1924 entitled “The Catholic Church and

the Negro.” In it, Vallé described the struggle of the fledgling black Catholic

community for support from the institutional Catholic Church for the development and

acceptance of black Catholic leadership for Negros and a commitment to evangelize

freed Negros in America.23

Although passionately argued for by Vallé, his dreams of a blossoming black

Catholic community with black leadership and even with its own rite was never to be

realized during Vallé’s lifetime. 24 Davis’ article highlights this aspect in “the never-

ending story” portion of his title. 25 Quoting John Deedy, Davis wrote:

The American Catholic Church did not leave its mark on the civil rights
movement, but neither did its failures cost the church the interest or loyalties of

21
“Benedictine Fr. Cyprian Davis Top Chronicler of Black Catholic History Dies,” Catholic
News Service, (May 20, 2015), accessed October 4, 2017,
https://www.ncronline.org/news/people/benedictine-fr-cyprian-davis-top-chronicler-black-catholic-
history-dies.
22
Davis, “Brothers and Sisters To Us: The Never-Ending Story,” 319-21, 334.
23
Ibid., 319-21, 334.
24
Ibid., 319-21, 334.
25
Ibid., 319-21, 334.

13
 the American black. It never had them… (it) had never particularly concerned
itself with the American black. 26

While this may have been the vantage point of white Catholics historically,

Davis notes that blacks have been a part of Catholic American history since the

Spanish, French, and English Catholics settled in Florida, Maryland, Louisiana, and

southwest America. This community of black Catholics has grown in America. In

fact, Davis notes that Vallé’s dream did eventually come to light in the National Black

Catholic Clergy Caucus, a fraternal organization of black priests. 27

This history is not without its tensions. As a case study, Davis discussed the

story of the Catholic Imani Temple at Anacostia in Washington, DC, founded by

Father George Stallings in 1989. Fr. Stallings, an ordained priest of the Archdiocese of

Washington, established the Imani Temple as a new parish, but without official

approval. Fr. Stallings was actually exemplifying the same spirit of earlier black

Catholic leaders like Vallé who had sought the establishment of their own African

American rite or “semi-autonomous jurisdiction for black Catholics in the United

States, a church united to Rome but with its own hierarchy.” 28 In addition, Davis

wrote, “the notion of a bishop with nationwide jurisdiction over black Catholics had

first been suggested at the Second Plenary Council of Baltimore in 1866.” 29

Washington’s Saint Augustine Parish, Baltimore’s Saint Peter Claver Parrish, and New

26
Ibid., 319-21, 334.
27
Ibid. , 319-21, 334.
28
Ibid. , 319-21, 334.
29
Ibid. , 319-21, 334.

14
Orleans’ Knight of Peter Claver are all pivotal historic communities for black

Catholics in America.30 A point worth noting is how all this reflects the consistent

powerful human drive for freedom of spiritual and religious expression, autonomy,

self-governance and independence among African Americans. This is a common

thread in African American religious communities in America, among black Catholics,

black Protestants, and black Muslims.

Keeping in mind the theme of interfaith dialogue as it relates to the thesis, note

the attitude of Catholic Paulist founder Isaac Hecker during this time period towards

Muslims. Hecker visited Egypt and was briefly exposed to Muslims and Islam during

his Nile river voyage circa 1873.31 According to his written journal, Hecker noted that:

The Arabs have a gift for prayer. We Christians might learn from them
a lesson on this point and not asmall one either. For prayer is the
beginning of all other graces…For these Arabs whom we have learned
to despise pray at all times, in whatever they do, whetherin the shops, or
on the vessel, or in the streets, or on the banks of the river; anywhere
and at all times you will see them kneel down, rise, prostrate their
foreheads against the earth or floor, sit on their heels with their arms
resting on their knees and their faces turned toward Mecca and their
eyes up to heaven.32

30
MacGregor, The Emergence of a Black Catholic Community, 1-39.
31
"Isaac Hecker Biography," Paulist Fathers, accessed March 30, 2017,
http://www.paulist.org/who-we-are/our-history/isaac-hecker/isaac-hecker-biography/.

32
John Borelli, "U. S. Catholic-Muslim Dialogue: History and Prospects," Origins Catholic
News Service documentary service, February 15, 2007.

15
His journal writings also note that Hecker read his copy of the Qur’an while on this

journey through Egypt.33

African Americans in the Twentieth Century:

Social Conditions, Civil Rights Movement

Between the time that Isaac Hecker was reading his Qur’an on the Nile river in

1873 and the election of Pope Paul VI in 1963, African Americans were experiencing

quite a difficult time in the United States of America.34 They were grappling with

what scholar W. E. B. DuBois coined “The Negro Problem.”35 Enslaved Africans in

the states in rebellion against America were freed by President Lincoln’s signing of the

Emancipation Proclamation in 1863, and the subsequent 1865 Union victory over the

Confederate army ending the Civil War. 36 All slaves in the United States were freed

by passage of the thirteenth amendment. 37

The end of slavery did greatly improve the immediate conditions of formerly

enslaved Africans in America and their descendants. 38 However, after the brief

reconstruction period, the horrors of unjust sharecropping, debt peonage, voter

disenfranchisement, murderous lynching, and racial terrorism by the Ku Klux Klan

33
Ibid.
34
"Isaac Hecker Biography," Paulist Fathers, accessed March 30, 2017,
http://www.paulist.org/who-we-are/our-history/isaac-hecker/isaac-hecker-biography/.
35
Du Bois W. E. B., The souls of black folk: essays and sketches (Fawcett Books, 1961), 1-5.
36
Franklin, From Slavery to Freedom, 208.
37
Ibid., 218.
38
Ibid., 221-246.

16
plagued the community. 39 Additionally, the terrible crimes of rape, murder, and

wanton destruction of property, denial of human rights, and violation of every sense of

human dignity became routine in the lives of the newly freed African Americans. 40

In addition to the injustices of slavery and later segregation, African Americans

also endured brutal dehumanization through a type of psychological propaganda based

on widely held false stereotypes about their inherent laziness, incompetence,

criminality, brutality, savageness, dim-witted intellect, and a subhuman essence. 41

Blanket stereotypes reinforced by the pseudo-sciences of eugenics were used to

legitimize both the institution of slavery and institutional segregation.42 Internationally

acclaimed writer, Ta-Nehisi Coates, succinctly summed up the many injustices

suffered by descendants of enslaved Africans in America in this statement from his

acclaimed article on reparations in The Atlantic:

250 years of slavery. 90 years of Jim Crow. 60 years of separate but equal. 35
years of state-sanctioned redlining. Until we reckon with the compounding
moral debts of our ancestors, America will never be whole.43

African Americans, called Negros, turned to faith for strength during these

difficult times. During slavery, apart from the few years after the Nat Turner slave

39
Ibid., 247-263.
40
Ibid., 247-263.
41
Encyclopedia of Group Processes and Intergroup Relations (New Delhi.: SAGE
Publications, ©2010), 1, accessed October 20, 2017,
http://catalog.hathitrust.org/api/volumes/oclc/251215605.html.
42
Ibid.
43
Ta-Nehisi Coates, "The Case for Reparations," The Atlantic, May 15, 2014, (accessed May
31, 2014), https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/.

17
revolt, African American preachers could preach to their black congregations, often

with a white man from the plantations in attendance.44 The black church eventually

developed into a pillar of African American life and the fight for freedom. From

abolitionists Frederick Douglas and Harriet Tubman to educators Booker T.

Washington and Mary McCloud Bethune, many African American leaders were

inspired by their faith to rise up and seek justice. 45

A “Great Migration” of thousands of Negros to the North, fleeing southern

lynching and repression in addition to seeking better job opportunities, before and after

World War I, created racial problems in the northern states. 46 Even though both the

north and south offered little refuge from racial discrimination and poor treatment for

Negros, African Americans could find jobs in the northern cities as Pullman porters,

factory workers, and other labor jobs. This lead to a substantial middle class of

African Americans and expanding opportunities for greater education and stability for

an increasing number of African Americans. 47 These professionally trained African

Americans began working towards legal solutions to their suffering and unjust

treatment. 48 Baltimore attorney, Thurgood Marshall, led a team of lawyers

advocating for Civil Rights of African Americans in a series of legal cases throughout

44
Franklin, From Slavery to Freedom, 136.
45
Ibid., 264-294.
46
Ibid., 383.
47
Ibid., 381-425.
48
Ibid., 464-468, 492-499.

18
the country. At the same time, African Americans, in their churches and local

communities, were organizing themselves to resist racial discrimination. This

resistance took many forms including non-violent resistance, political agitation, and

eventually separatist Black Nationalist movements. Formal and informal organizations

followed various avenues in pursuit of justice. These groups included W. E. B.

DuBois’s National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (N.A.A.C.P.),

Ida B. Wells anti-lynching campaign, A. Phillip Randolph’s Brotherhood of Sleeping

Car Porters, James Farmer’s Congress of Racial Equality (C.O.R.E.), and the Southern

Christian Leadership Conference (S.C.L.C.), and many others.49

Dr. Martin Luther King was perhaps the best and most well-known American

figure of the Civil Rights Era. He gained international acclaim, having won the Nobel

Peace Prize on October 14, 1964. 50 Pope Paul VI received Reverend Dr. Martin

Luther King, Jr. in audience at the Vatican on September 18, 1964. This was a shift for

the Church, as previously, the Church had tried to stay away from provocative national

movements. 51

Pope Paul VI and The Second Vatican Council

After his election, Pope Paul VI set a tone almost immediately for the direction

Vatican II would take moving from its first year into the remaining three years that it

49
Ibid., 464-468, 492-499.
50
Ibid., 495-497.
51
John Borelli, “The Catholic Church and Islam in the Modern World” (lecture, Georgetown
University, Washington, D.C., February 19, 2014).

19
would meet. In his initial address to the Fathers of Vatican Council II in Rome,

September 29, 1963, Pope Paul VI stated the following with regard to a new Esteem

for other religions:

The Catholic Church looks into the distance, beyond the confines of the
Christian horizon;…Look therefore beyond your own sphere and observe those
other religions that uphold the meaning and the concept of God as one, creator,
provident, most high, and transcendent, that worship God with acts of sincere
piety and upon whose beliefs and practices the principles of moral and social
life are founded….the Catholic religion holds in just regard all that which in
them is true, good, and human. Moreover, in order to preserve religious
sentiment and the worship of God in modern culture – the duty and need of a
true civilization – she is in the forefront as the most valid supporter of the rights
of God over humanity.52

After the next session of the council unfolded, for the setting of his next message, Pope

Paul VI visited The Holy Land in the village of Bethlehem, where the Gospel says

Jesus was born. In January 1964, Pope Paul VI was the first sitting Pope to do so ever.

In this sacred land, Pope Paul VI issued his “Message to the World” which expounded

on his earlier sentiments. In the sections titled “Mission of Friendship” and “A

Greeting to Those Who Profess Monotheism,” Pope Paul VI stated:

This means that the mission of Christianity is a mission of friendship in the

midst of humanity, a mission of understanding, of encouragement, of
promotion, of elevation, indeed of salvation We once again wish to
affirm….We address this reverent greeting in particular to those who profess
monotheism and with Us direct their religious worship to the one true God,
most high and living, the God of Abraham, the supreme God…We Christians,
informed by revelation, understand God as existing in the three Divine Persons,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; however, we celebrate the divine nature as one, as

52
Catholic Church, Interreligious Dialogue: the Official Teaching of the Catholic Church from
the Second Vatican Council to John Paul II (1963-2005), ed. Francesco Gioia (Boston, MA: Pauline
Books & Media, 2006).

20
 one the living and true God. May these peoples, worshipers of the one God,
also welcome Our best wishes for peace in justice.53

In August 1964, before the third session of Vatican II began, in his encyclical

Ecclesiam Suam, Pope Paul VI stated, “Then [we refer] to the adorers of God

according to the conception of monotheism, the Muslim religion especially, deserving

of our admiration for all that is true and good in their worship of God.” Ecclesiam

Suam 107, (August 6, 1964).54

Some of the most powerful explicit Catholic statements about Muslims are

found in the pronouncements and documents from the Second Vatican Council.55 One

portion of The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church reads:

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in
the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of
Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s
judge on the last day. Lumen gentium 16, (November 21, 1964). 56

The most substantial statement is in the Declaration of the Relation of the Church to

Non-Christian Religions. The third section addresses relations with Muslims:

The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God,
who is living and subsisting in himself, merciful and all-powerful, the Creator
of heaven and earth… In the course of centuries there have indeed arisen not a
few quarrels and hostilities between Christians and Muslims. But now this
Sacred Synod pleads with all to forget the past, to make sincere efforts for
mutual understanding, and so to work together for the preservation and

53
Ibid.

54 Borelli, The Catholic Church and Islam.

55
Ibid.
56
Ibid.

21
 fostering of social justice, moral welfare, and peace and freedom, for all
humankind. Nostra aetate 3, dated (October 28, 1965). 57

This movement was shared by other members in the Church. Indigenous bishops from

Africa and Asia living as minority Christian communities in majority populations of

Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and others urged the Second Vatican Council to include

more favorable language regarding Non-Christian religions. 58 In 1961, the Missionary

of Africa, priest Josef Cuoq, a specialist on the religion of Islam, established networks

with other missionaries to give voice to interreligious interests. 59 In November 1963,

Father Georges Anawati, Dominican scholar from the Dominican Institute of Oriental

Studies in Cairo, lectured on “Islam at this Time in the Council” at the Roman

Domincian college, Angelicum, while Vatican II was only beginning to address

interreligious relations beyond Jewish relations. 60

While interreligious dialogue was not the only focus, for the first time, the

Church issued specific guidance on interreligious dialogue acknowledging Jews,

Muslims, and others. This signaled a shift towards openness and interfaith dialogue

with non-Christian faith communities all over the world. 61 What began with Pope John

XXXIII for Vatican II to heal relations among Christians expanded with Pope Paul VI

57
Thomas F. Stransky, trans., "The Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian
Religions," proceedings of The Second Vatican Council, Rome, Vatican City (1965).
58
Ibid.
59
Ibid.
60
Ibid.
61
Borelli, The Catholic Church and Islam.

22
to reconciliation with members of other religions. The fullest and most recent account

of these interreligious developments at Vatican II is by John Borelli.62

The Black Muslim Movement: The Nation of Islam,

Hon. Elijah Muhammad, Malcolm X, and Muhammad Ali

Dr. King, Thurgood Marshall, the N.A.A.C.P., the “Black Church,” and the

Civil Rights leaders pursued non-violent resistance through legislation, marching, and

appealing to the goodness in European American whites. While this approach

appealed to many professionally educated, middle class blacks and many whites,

working class African American community felt that these methods were too timid for

the blatant, violent injustices and too slow for results. 63 During the depression era, a

marginal number of these discontented blacks chose Communism as the political

vehicle to voice their discontent with the poor treatment African Americans received. 64

Communist political efforts failed to ever gain significant traction with the majority of

African Americans. 65 There were still other African Americans that felt that the

mainstream efforts of leaders like Dr. King did not represent them and sought religious

organizations as a refuge.

62
John Borelli, ed., “Nostra Aetate: Origin, History, and Vatican II Context,” in The Future of
Interreligious Dialogue: A Multireligious Conversation On Nostra Aetate: , ed. Charles Cohen, Paul
Knitter, and Ulrich Rosenhagen (Maryknoll, New York: Orbis Books, 2017), 23-44.
63
Franklin, From Slavery to Freedom, 362-365, 384-391.
64
This interesting movement among African Americans is another story but not immediately
relevant to this thesis. See Franklin, 387-389.
65
Ibid., 387-389.

23
 Commenting on the religious organizations appealing to this class of

“disinherited” blacks during the Civil Rights era, historian John Hope Franklin wrote,

“as far as new religious institutions in the postwar years were concerned, none

attracted more outside attention or more dramatically pointed up the theme of African-

American alienation than the Nation of Islam.” 66 The Nation had emerged as a

religious movement of significant influence despite the relatively small size of its

following in comparison to the population of African Americans of that time. While

his disciple Malcolm X would later gain an international reputation as the national

spokesman for the “Black Muslim” movement, the driving force behind the Nation of

Islam was a small statured man from Sandersville, Georgia who was born Elijah Poole,

later renamed Elijah Muhammad by the group’s mysterious founder Fard Muhammad.

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad led the Nation of Islam pushing a militant program

of self-reliance, economic independence, and racial separation as the saving grace for

black people of America in response to white racism.

Television journalist Mike Wallace introduced the Nation of Islam to America

in a special television program titled, The Hate That Hate Produced.67 In the 1959 five

part New York public television broadcast, Newsbeat misrepresented Elijah

66
Ibid., 424-425.
67
The Hate That Hate Produced, prod. Mike Wallace and Louis E. Lomax, perf. Elijah
Muhammad, Malcolm X, Louis Farrakhan (USA: WNTA-TV, 1959), newsbeat broadcast on new york
city's wnta-tv, May 2, 2014, accessed February 5, 2016,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsOR6wGcG9M.

24
Muhammad as a cult leader who preached hatred and violence.68 His teachings

advocated racial separation as the only solution for America’s race problem. He taught

that white people were a race of devils which could not be trusted to solve the race

problem. 69 The rhetoric of Elijah Muhammad’s message was perceived as

inflammatory and hateful by whites and blacks alike. However, a closer look at Elijah

Muhammad’s actual teachings, when studied and taken in their historical context,

reveals that Elijah Muhammad was not a man of violence, but a man of non-violence.70

First, Elijah Muhammad was not the author of his theology or strategy to

challenge the American system of racial prejudice and injustice. Elijah Poole was

introduced to this Black Islamic theology by a teacher with an ambiguous past in

Detroit, Michigan named W. D. Fard. 71 Fard went by many names including Wallace,

Fard Muhammad, and W. F. Muhammad. Elijah Poole was a sincere believer in

everything that Fard taught him. Fard renamed Elijah Poole Elijah Muhammad, and

Elijah built the Nation of Islam. Fard deposited in Elijah a theological ideology that

contained an aggressive social reform strategy coupled with a powerful commitment to

the poor, the downtrodden, the uneducated, and the Great Depression era African

Americans who had migrated North fleeing Southern persecution. 72

68
Michael Saahir, The Honorable Elijah Muhammad:The Man Behind the Men (Indianapolis,
IN: Words Make People Pub., 2011), 36, 264.

69
Ibid., 264-275.
70
Ibid., 264-275.
71
Ibid., 264-275.
72
Ibid., 264-275.

25
 Second, the teachings of Elijah Muhammad, while provocative, were non-

violent. 73 The Honorable Elijah Muhammad once stated, “Not one of us will have to

raise a sword. Not one gun would we need to fire. The great cannon that will be fired

is our unity.” 74 Elijah Muhammad established a paramilitary male membership unit,

the Fruit of Islam, and taught them not to carry weapons or provoke violence.75 They

were trained only for self-defense, not for offensive tactics. Elijah also taught Muslims

not to fight in wars on behalf of White or Christian governments, but only for a holy

war called by Allah. 76 Later during the Vietnam era, Muhammad Ali would be

vindicated by the Supreme Court for his refusing to be drafted into the U.S. Army on

religious grounds, based on a review of these teachings of Elijah Muhammad.77

Elijah Muhammad’s teachings were potent doses of self-help, positive self-

image, and much needed self-esteem for the damaged psyche of descendants of

enslaved Africans in America. 78 Elijah Muhammad taught that the black man was a

god; whites were the devil by nature; blacks should love themselves, love their skin,

love their African hair, and love their own culture above embracing other races. These

73
Ibid., 264-275.
74
Ibid., 264-275.
75
Elijah Muhammad, Message to the Blackman in America (Chicago, IL: The Final Call Inc.,
2012), 212-215, 218-219.
76
Ibid., 179, 315-319.
77
Howard L. Bingham, Max Wallace, and Alan M. Dershowitz, Muhammad Ali's greatest
fight: Cassius Clay vs. the United States of America (Omaha, NE: Notable Trials Library, 2014).
78
Saahir, The Honorable Elijah Muhammad, 41-53.

26
messages were the exact opposite of those depicting black devilish inferiority, white

angelic superiority, ugliness of black natural physical features, and supreme beauty of

natural white physical features in film, media, and even in product marketing. Elijah’s

teachings also counteracted society’s negative stereotypes of criminality, laziness,

incompetence, ineptitude, and imbecility of all African Americans. 79 At its height, the

Nation of Islam boasted over 175 independently owned temples in the United States

and the Caribbean, thousands of acres of farmland in Michigan and Georgia, an

independently published national newspaper, numerous businesses, including

restaurants, cleaners, bakeries, groceries, a trucking company, and hundreds of

thousands of followers.80

As the national spokesman for the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, Minister

Malcolm X drew international press attention. Minister Malcolm was shrewd at

promoting his message and the Nation as he knew how to couch his religious rhetoric

in short provocative, Black Nationalist, political statements. 81 Malcolm X broke with

the movement shortly after making unauthorized insensitive comments regarding the

assassination of President Kennedy in November 1963. Malcolm later embraced the

79
Ibid.
80
Abdul Rasheed, Rafah Muhammad, and Seifullah Muhammad., Evolution of a Community
(Calumet City, IL: WDM Publications, 1995), 10-33.
81
Malcolm X and Alex Haley, The autobiography of Malcolm X: with the assistance of Alex
Haley; Foreword by Attallah Shabazz; Introduction by M.S. Handler; Epilogue by Alex Haley (New
York: Ballantine Books, 1999), 238-250.

27
traditional teachings of orthodox Islam after making the pilgrimage to Mecca in

1964.82

Just as he began to get footing in his movement, Malcolm X, also known as El

Hajj Malik Shabazz, was brutally murdered in February 1965 in New York City’s

Audubon Ballroom. 83 It was presumed that he was murdered by disgruntled members

of the Nation of Islam. 84 However, due to the heavy involvement of federal agents and

other covert operatives in this age of J. Edgar Hoover’s Counter Intelligence Program

(COINTELPRO), this point never been completely settled. 85 The late historian

Manning Marable raised this question of who actually was responsible for killing

Malcolm most recently in his magnum opus on the life of Malcolm X, “Malcolm X, A

Life of Reinvention.”86

The Year 1965: The Raging Sixties, A Changing America

The year 1965 was a pivotal year which set a significant foundation for the

dialogue between the Catholic Church and the African American Muslim community.

In 1965, the Second Vatican Council was concluded by Pope Paul VI. Many important

statements from the Church indicated a clear shift towards ecumenical and

82
Ibid., 348-365.
83
Ibid., 470-480.
84
Karl Evanzz, The Judas Factor: the Plot to Kill Malcolm X, First ed. (New York: Thunder's
Mouth Press, 1992), 65-80, 297-320.
85
“Fbi - Cointelpro,” The FBI: Federal Bureau of Investigation, accessed May 4,
2014, http://vault.fbi.gov/cointel-pro.
86
Manning Marable, Malcolm X: A Life of Reinvention (London: Penguin Books Ltd., 2012).

28
interreligious dialogue. The Decree on Ecumenism (Unitatis Redintegratio), the

Declaration on Religious Liberty (Dignitatis Humanae), Dogmatic Constitution on the

Church (Lumen Gentium), and the Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-

Christian Religions (Nostra Aetate) firmly planted seeds of opportunity that would

later bear fruit. 87 While members of the Second Vatican Council would not have

necessarily considered America’s “Black Muslims” in their pronouncements on

Muslims in Nostra Aetate, their works would prove pivotal in establishing the

framework that would bring members of this community into dialogue with the

Catholic Church exactly thirty years later.88

Conditions for African Americans were also changing for the better. The Civil

Rights Act of 1964 was enacted by Congress. The law was the most comprehensive

legal attempt at racial justice against discrimination in American history. 89 The law

opened new employment and educational opportunities for African Americans by

establishing the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), outlawing

discrimination in federally funded programs, and allocated funding for assistance in

desegregation of schools. 90 The Voting Rights Act of 1965 also passed, providing

federal protections against State disenfranchisement of African Americans voting

87
Borelli, The Catholic Church and Islam.
88
Ibid.
89
Franklin, From Slavery to Freedom.
90
Ibid.

29
rights. 91

While African Americans made many gains, there was notable backlash from

hardline southern European Americans that felt too much was changing all at once. 92

Unfortunately, Congress’s enactment of the Civil Rights Act did not automatically

change the deep seated racial attitudes in the country. Segregationists shifted from the

Democratic Party to the Republican Party after this legislation was passed. The

Republican Party embraced a new “southern strategy” which encouraged

segregationists to join their movement. 93 President Kennedy and Medgar Evers had

been assassinated in 1963. Malcolm X was assassinated in 1965. Both Dr. Martin

Luther King and Robert Kennedy were assassinated in 1968. Amidst the

assassinations were violent riots in major urban cities throughout the country. 94

Revolutionary militant groups like the Black Panthers sprouted during this time.

America was amid a season of violent and radical change. 95

Despite the violence and turmoil, some African Americans began to fare well

economically and politically. 96 There were more black members of state legislatures

91
Ibid.
92
Ibid.
93
Ibid.
94
Ibid.
95
Ibid.
96
Ibid.

30
and the United States Congress. 97 At the same time, the passage of the Hart-Cellar

Immigration Act in 1965 opened immigration to non-European nations, ending the

discrimination based on national origin which had favored Western European migrants

and excluded non-European immigrants.98 America’s exclusive black-white

demographic would forever be changed. 99 Many Muslims from Africa, Asia, and the

Middle East would begin immigrating to America, changing the predominate Black

Muslim narrative of the era. It is this American setting which sets the stage for Imam

Warith Deen Mohammed to ascend as Chief Minister of the Nation of Islam.

97
Ibid.
98
Tom Gjelten, "The Immigration Act That Inadvertently Changed America," The Atlantic,
October 02, 2015, accessed March 31, 2017,
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/immigration-act-1965/408409/.
99
Ibid.

31
 CHAPTER 2

IMAM WARITH DEEN MOHAMMED,

A MAN OF PEACE AND DIALOGUE

In the first 100 days of his presidency, President Trump has put forward two

restrictive travel ban, on immigrants to America from seven Muslim majority nations.

According to Georgetown University’s Bridge Initiative, Islamophobia, hate crimes,

and xenophobia have never been higher. Republican politicians have suggested the

logical framework for such legislation and legal positions are for the benefit of

America’s Homeland Security as a matter of safety, security and prevention of

violence.1 Despite all of these efforts, ISIL, Al-Qaeda, and sympathizers with militant

anti-United States so-called Islamic movements are still committed to strike terror and

fear in the hearts of Western powers.

In this context, now more than ever, it is prudent to examine the benefits Imam

Warith Deen Mohammed’s leadership offers our current circumstances. Academically,

approaching an intellectual leader of this magnitude is through examining his works,

writings, as well as sharing what others have written about him. This author intends to

provide accurate scholarship that is faithful to the original sources as well as to provide

contemporary interpretations and insights that are appropriate, including this author’s

interpretation of the most significant moments and events that are pertinent to this

research and academic discussion at hand. This research paper examines the interfaith

activities of the late Imam W. Deen Mohammed, also known as Wallace D.

1
Andrea Stone, "Peter King Schedules Fifth Muslim Radicalization Hearing," The Huffington
Post, (last modified June 13, 2012).

32
Muhammad, while also seeking to understand how he viewed Islam, Muslims and non-

Muslims.2

Imam Warith Deen Mohammed’s visionary leadership and Qur’anic teaching

transformed a social reform movement, with a non-violent yet radical Black

Nationalist separatist ideology, into a community that now loves the virtues of America

and strives to improve her shortcomings by actively participating in civic engagement,

public service, social justice, interfaith relations, non-profit works and educational and

business initiatives, and positively contributing to the greatness of America as a vibrant

righteous Muslim religious community.

Raised Inside The Nation of Islam

The New York Times has reported that Imam Mohammed was the leader of the

largest pluralistic religious community with a significantly important Muslim

population in America with followers of his community “rang[ing] from 500,000

adherents to more than 2 million.”3 Mohammed was the seventh son of Elijah

Muhammad, the master architect of the Nation of Islam. He was born, raised and

educated in Elijah Muhammad’s movement, which taught Islamic self-reliance along

with black supremacy and Black Nationalism.4 At its height, the Nation of Islam

boasted over 175 temples in the United States and the Caribbean, thousands of acres of

2
Imam Mohammed publically stated that he changed the spelling of his last name from
Muhammad to Mohammed because “Mohammed” is how it was spelled on his birth certificate.

3
New York Times, (September 10, 2008).

4
USA Today, (September 9, 2008).

33
farmland in Michigan and Georgia, a self-published national newspaper, numerous

businesses including restaurants, cleaners, bakeries, groceries, trucking company and

hundreds of thousands of followers.5

Mohammed was a friend and advisor to both Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali.

In the 1950s, while serving as the head minister in the Nation of Islam’s Philadelphia

temple, fellow ministers noticed that his teachings differed from those of his father.

Having learned Arabic from Jordanian, Palestinian, and other Muslim immigrant

teachers in the Nation of Islam’s school, Muhammad’s University of Islam,

Mohammed was able to study and read the Qur’an in Arabic. His teachings differed

from Elijah Muhammad in that he did not teach that Master Fard Muhammad was

divine. This led to his first excommunication from the Nation of Islam.

Wallace was jailed in Minnesota in 1961 for refusing induction into the United

States armed forces for religious reasons seven years earlier, in 1954. The time away

from the hectic life of a Muslim minister in prison allowed Wallace the freedom to

study and develop his thoughts independently of the Nation of Islam.6 After his release

from prison, Mohammed’s preaching continued to differ from his father’s teachings,

which led to him being excommunicated again. Mohammed worked as a welder, cab

driver, painter, and held other jobs during his excommunications from the Nation of

5
Rasheed., Evolution of a Community, 10-33.
6
Mohammed, Return to Innocence: The Transitioning of The Nation of Islam, (Homewood,
IL: The Sense Maker, c/o Muslim Journal, 2007), 1-13.

34
Islam to support his family.7

While working as a welder, Mohammed was invited by Muslim college

students to perform the Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca. Mohammed saved the needed funds

and made the Hajj pilgrimage. At one of the Hajj sites, Arafat, Mohammed was

summoned to meet with Pakistani Islamic reformer, Maulana Maududi. Maududi told

his followers in Mohammed’s presence that Black Muslims in America were learning

Islam independently and did not need to be confused by introducing them to foreign

customs.8 This pilgrimage affirmed Mohammed’s thinking and his views of Islamic

religious teaching.

After a period of excommunication, Mohammed returned to the Nation of

Islam in late 1974 with the blessing of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. The

sequence of events over the next few months seemed more like a dramatic movie script

than actual fact. Elijah Muhammad had moved from his Chicago headquarters to

Phoenix, Arizona, presumably for the health benefits of the warmer climate.

Speculation about Elijah being in poor health had been circulating around for months.

Elijah was expected to rebut these rumors with a strong showing during his public

address at the Nation’s annual Savior’s Day convention scheduled for February 26,

1975 in Chicago.

In dramatic fashion, Elijah Muhammad passed away on the eve of February 25,

1975. In a closed council with Muhammad’s family, chief ministers and

7
New York Times, (September 10 2008).
8
Mohammed, Return to Innocence, 1-13.

35
representatives of the Nation of Islam, Wallace was selected as the Chief Minister of

the Nation of Islam. Wallace Muhammad delivered a historic, strong, and powerful

closing address of the Savior’s Day convention.9 Demonstrating unanimous support

for his leadership, the chief ministers and national representatives of the Nation of

Islam physically hoisted Wallace onto their shoulders after his speech. This symbolic

passing of the torch of leadership to Minister Wallace garnered thunderous applause by

all in attendance. Over the next three decades, Imam Mohammed worked diligently to

re-orient the thinking of the Nation of Islam to be consistent with orthodox Islam.

Gradual Movement Towards Mainstream Al-Islam

The measured change in religious ideology from black supremacy and

nationalism to embracing Islam’s international creed of universal brotherhood did not

happen immediately. The process was slow and deliberate starting with re-educating

the membership. In 1976, Chief Minister Mohammed introduced for all in the

membership new mandatory lessons entitled The Teachings of W.D. Muhammad.

Distributed throughout the temples and schools, these new lessons were impressively

bound, hard cover text books with accompanying workbooks and versions for adults

and children.

Between the pages of these texts were vivid cartoon illustrations that visually

conveyed the meanings and messages of Imam Mohammed’s teaching. The

illustrations introduced Arabic writing, emphasized the Holy Qur’an, universal

brotherhood with all Muslims of the world, and the traditional observance of Ramadan.

9
Ibid.

36
Not all these changes were new to the Nation of Islam. Members of the Nation of

Islam under Elijah Muhammad professed common brotherhood with Muslims of the

East and observed the month of Ramadan in December. While Elijah Muhammad and

his ministers had chiefly taught from the Bible, the Qur’an was held high as the Holy

Book of the community.10 Imam Mohammed elevated the importance of the Qur’an

and shifted the Nation of Islam’s observance of Ramadan to the appropriate Islamic

lunar calendar month.

Organizational Challenges and Legal Problems

In 1975, the Nation of Islam was structured like a paramilitary organization

complete with soldiers in the Fruit of Islam (FOI) and in Muslim Girls Training (MGT)

regiments. These neatly uniformed units organized, trained, and disciplined new

members once they were accepted officially into the Nation. While these organized

regiments were essential for driving the success of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad’s

economic program by selling newspapers, fish, etc., disgruntled temple ministers and

FOI captains could potentially use their influence over their units to resist changes

from headquarters in Chicago or to operate shadow operations that were not in line

with national leadership. In a strategic move to eliminate these shadow operations,

Imam Mohammed eliminated some of the mandatory requirements for the FOI and

MGT. Once implemented, Mohammed’s strategy initially reduced the significance of

the FOI and MGT, and then eventually disbanded the regiments.11

10
Muhammad, As the Light Shineth from the East (Chicago: WDM Pub. Co, 1980), 9-39.

37
 At the time Imam Mohammed was making these structural changes, J. Edgar

Hoover’s now publically known counter intelligence program (COINTELPRO) had

fully infiltrated all areas of the Nation’s organization with informants. Although the

FBI program officially ended in 1971, the gathered information, now available from

the Federal Bureau of Investigation under the Freedom of Information Act, makes clear

that these same tactics were still used to target groups that the FBI deemed subversive

or threatening to the United States government.12 In addition to the FBI’s informants

spying on him and the Nation of Islam, Mohammed also had to contend with jealous

ministers and others who opposed his new direction for the Nation of Islam.

Elijah Muhammad had died without a will, and this created other problems for

Imam Mohammed. According to reports, funds collected from all the Nation’s

members were sent to the Chicago headquarters (Temple No. 2), and placed in an

account for the “No. 2 Poor,” which had served as a general fund for the entire Nation

of Islam. The fund also served as a charity for those in need among the “Lost Found”

or general population of non-white people living in the wilderness of North America

and around the globe.13 Shortly after the Honorable Elijah Muhammad passed away,

Imam Mohammed and a few other descendants presented signed affidavits that these

funds were not the personal property of Elijah Muhammad but belonged to the Nation

11
Ibid.
12
“FBI - COINTELPRO,” The FBI: Federal Bureau of Investigation, accessed May 4,
2014, http://vault.fbi.gov/cointel-pro.
13
This author’s research shows the Nation of Islam had temples in the Caribbean as well as
relationships with members in Central America, South America, and nations in Africa.

38
of Islam. Months later, other heirs challenged these affidavits contending in probate

court that these funds were indeed Elijah’s personal property.14

Early Progresses

For the first fifteen years of his leadership, this probate battle would take its toll

on the community. In addition to the aforementioned changes, Imam Mohammed

introduced a new community flag, which replaced the previous star and crescent with

an open Qur’an. The new flag clearly illustrated the new direction for the community.

The background of the flag was red symbolizing the life blood of humanity. The

center of the flag was an open Qur’an with the Muslim double witness of faith “There

is No God but God and Muhammad is God’s messenger” written over the book’s

binding in gold Arabic letters. Finally, the Qur’an’s open pages are drawn like rays of

sunlight emanating from a horizon of a divine guiding light.15

To ensure the community’s focus remained on the Qur’an, Imam Mohammed

even changed the language that the Nation of Islam used to describe themselves and

African American people. He introduced the term “Bilalian” to replace “Negro,”

“black” or “Afro-American.” He crafted the term “to free the minds of a people; to

move beyond the trappings and limitations of colorism and racism; to enable them to

see themselves as slave servants of God alone; to follow the moral arc of Bilal ibn

14
Rasheed, Evolution of a Community, 10-33.
15
Ibid.

39
Rabah; to be truly free.”16 In Islamic history, Bilal ibn Rabah was an enslaved

Abyssinian, who embraced Islam, was freed by fellow Muslims, and became a close

companion and preferred muezzin (prayer caller) of Muhammad the Prophet. Imam

Mohammed believed Bilal’s story of liberation through Islam metaphorically

paralleled the African American story.

Although the term “Bilalian” never fully caught on outside the community,

Imam Mohammed changed the newspaper names from Muhammad Speaks to Bilalian

News in 1976. Towards the end of 1976, Mohammed also changed the name of the

Nation of Islam to the World Community of Islam in the West. This would be the first

of many more name changes for the organization.

One of the more controversial changes was the lifting of the restriction that

barred other races from attending the Nation of Islam, allowing whites to enter and

embrace the faith. Although few did embrace initially, whites were no longer taught to

be exclusively devils. Imam Mohammed taught that in scriptural language, the term

devil was a mentality that could develop in any person regardless of race due to weak

thinking, lies, deceit and immoral behavior.

Such drastic changes required constant education. Imam Mohammed increased

the frequency of his lectures scheduling nationwide addresses almost weekly and

utilizing live telephone hook-ups to connect the nationwide community. He often

spoke for four or more hours at a time. A weekly radio show also spread the new

16
Muhammad, P. and Abuwi Aleem, M. “Make It Plain: The Truth About the Muslims Called
Bilalians,” Muslim History Detective: Reflections on American Muslim Life & History (blog), Patheos,
March 3, 2014.

40
message to an increasing audience as well. Publications soon followed as Imam

Mohammed published As the Light Shineth from the East in 1980 and Prayer and Al-

Islam in 1982. As the Light Shineth unlocked the mysterious symbols and esoteric

language encoded in the Nation’s mythological teachings, while pointing the way to

the Qur’an and Al-Islam as the sources of clear spiritual and moral guidance.17 Prayer

introduced the community to the five daily Muslim prayers or salat. It is quite possible

that this text was the first Muslim American Islamic jurisprudence text, a fiqh book, in

the English language.

Imam Mohammed used his influence in the African American community to

offer practical solutions to the social decay and moral decadence plaguing the black

community. In 1977, he rallied with many national black leaders for a series of

meetings, titled “C.R.U.C.I.A.L.,” to discuss the “crucial issues of drug addiction,

violence, immorality and other forms of blight in African American communities.”18

These meetings culminated in a December 1977 audience with President Jimmy Carter

to address these social concerns. Imam Mohammed was also able to impress upon

President Carter the strength of his religious ideas and universal teachings of Al-

Islam.19 He expressed to President Carter “that he saw his responsibility to

17
Muhammad, As the Light Shineth, 9-39.
18
Rasheed, Evolution of a Community, 10-33.
19
Ibid.

41
government the same as he saw his responsibility to fathers and mothers in the

community: ‘to call them back to spiritual development.’”20

Such a meeting of a representative of the Nation of Islam with the President of

the United States was not possible just two years earlier when the Nation of Islam was

seen as separatist. In addition to religious changes, Imam Mohammed embraced

American democracy and encouraged patriotism in a bicentennial address. While

highlighting the spirit of universal human freedom in our nation’s founding documents,

Mohammed was critical of the moral decadence and systemic abuses of democratic

power by many political leaders. He preached civic participation, public service, and

military service as a way to invest in the fabric of American society and hold leaders

accountable.

In a clear departure from what the Nation of Islam taught previously, during the

bicentennial year 1976, Imam Mohammed picked up the American flag while

addressing the community and carried it through the mosque in Chicago. He instituted

an annual parade and community celebration on the Fourth of July to be called “New

World Patriotism Day.” These parades were interfaith and intercultural events, led my

Mohammed, which included non-Muslims, Native Americans, Christian groups, labor

unions and others.

Nationwide community observances were held in Chicago, Atlanta, Kansas

City, Los Angeles, New York, Philadelphia, Miami, and Washington, DC.21 Each year

20
Ibid.

42
themes were selected drawing attention to social ills affecting the African American

community. The first New World Patriotism Day theme was “We Are at Peace With

All People.”22 He added the American flag to the cover of the community newspaper.

Mohammed later instituted community political initiatives such as the Coalition for

Good Government and Muslim Political Action committees.

As a result of the meeting with President Carter, Al-Islam was added as the

third official religion of the United States, in that it opened doors for Muslim chaplains

in all branches of the Armed Forces, prison system and other federal systems.23

Community members were now free to pursue careers in the military, public service,

law, politics, and state, local and federal governments. Community members’

contributions to the American political system resulted in members becoming the first

Muslim mayors, judges, politicians, council persons, chaplains, servicemen, and

eventually two Muslim United States Congressional Representatives.

Imam Mohammed also introduced traditional Islamic dietary requirements.24

After introducing the Qur’an and teaching prayers, Imam Mohammed organized the

production of halal food from the Muslim farms. Imam Mohammed also encouraged

taking on Arabic names from the Qur’an, especially names associated with attributes of

21
Ibid.
22
Muslim Journal, (August 19, 2012).
23
Rasheed., Evolution of a Community, 10-33.
24
Ibid.

43
God.25 Louis Farrakhan became Abdul-Haleem Farrakhan.26 Minister Luther X

became Na’im Akbar. The community became the World Community of Al-Islam in

the West, and its members began observing the Muslim Friday jumu’ah prayer service

and removed the chairs from the main temple. The institution of prayer brought in

members from the international Muslim community, mostly immigrants who were no

longer barred or reluctant to enter the African American mosques.27

Eventually, some community members viewed Imam Mohammed’s continuing

changes as abandonment of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad’s program and mission.

Others saw the abandonment of the struggle for freedom, justice and equality for

African American people in pursuit of alliances with foreign Muslims. To say that not

everyone was happy would be an understatement.

In late 1977, Imam Abdul-Haleem Farrakhan left the community, embraced his

former name and title, Minister Louis Farrakhan, and restarted his version of the

Nation of Islam in an effort to ensure that all that Elijah Muhammad had worked so

hard to establish was not going to be abandoned.28 Silas Muhammad also formed

another Lost Found Nation of Islam that reflected his understanding of Elijah

Muhammad’s teachings.29 There would be others who would leave the community at

25
Ibid.
26
Ibid.
27
Ibid.
28
Ibid.
29
Ibid.

44
one point or another to start their own effort, but Louis Farrakhan and Silas

Muhammad were the most notable to restart efforts to reestablish the teachings of the

Honorable Elijah Muhammad.

While some longtime members and supporters were becoming disenchanted

with Imam Mohammed’s new vision, the transitioning community also faced other

challenges. The organization of the Nation of Islam and its business administration

had created a tremendous debt by the time Elijah Muhammad had passed. The

centralized organization had many gaps, easily exploitable by those with access to

funds or business profits.30 Imam Mohammed reorganized this centralized leadership

structure by turning over control of many businesses and community temples to the

community owners, managers and members who had been supporting these

institutions. The probate case of Elijah Muhammad’s estate further complicated the

redistribution of community property, authority, responsibility and accountability to

local imams and community members at-large. In 1982, Judge Henry Budzinski

overturned the ruling in favor of the heirs forcing forfeiture of all funds that had been

previously released to the World Community of Islam in the West.31

Many community properties and businesses were lost. Minister Farrakhan

purchased a few of the homes of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and many other

properties to prevent all from being lost. Some have suggested that a backdoor

agreement with the heirs dissatisfied with the direction of Imam Mohammed’s

30
Ibid.
31
Ibid., 29.

45
leadership was a major reason for Farrakhan’s breaking from the community. This

author’s research shows this is speculation that cannot be verified or substantiated.

Not one to lose hope or abandon his post, Imam Mohammed continued to forge

ahead. He renamed the community to reflect the focus of his message during the

transitional periods from Black Nationalist thinking to a universal, spiritual, religious

community. The community name had changed from the Nation of Islam to World

Community of Islam in the West to the American Muslim Mission. The community

newspaper also changed from Muhammad Speaks to Bilalian News to the American

Muslim Journal and finally to the Muslim Journal.32

Imam Mohammed Embraces Interfaith Dialogue

Alongside these internal changes, Imam Warith Deen reached out to the

interfaith community. Members of other religious groups were beginning to take

notice of Imam Mohammed. The opening pages of As the Light Shineth from the East

cites a quote from Dr. John Taylor of the World Council of Churches on Warith Deen

Mohammed,

He stressed the need for interracial, intercultural, and interreligious encounter;

he spoke of Islamic respect for Jesus, and expressed the hope that Christians
would visit his Community for its new series of jubilees. He said that Christian
and Muslims should together witness to religious values and that we should
stop being concerned with labels, adding that he wanted to see Christians as
better Christians and Muslims as better Muslims rather than trying to convert
each other.33

32
Ibid.
33
Muhammad, As the Light Shineth, 1-3.

46
 Senior Rabbi Joshua Haberman of Washington Hebrew Congregation said of

Mohammed:

He called for cooperation instead of strife between Jewish, Christian, Muslim

leaders and people. He called for cooperation with a common front against
drunkenness, and against the ever progressive destruction of the family in the
United States. And we are with him all the way in this fight. It’s our fight as
well. We think that the combined moral power of the major faiths should be
felt more in our society.34

Father Lawrence Parkhust, resident priest of Sacred Heart Catholic Church,

Flint, Michigan spoke of Mohammed:

I believe that he is a genuine and vital religious leader … I believe that his
power to do what he has done in such a short time is a power that comes from
God. In lecture appearances all over the world, he has stated his strong
resistance to any form of leadership that hides the truth and rips off the
people…He has managed to help change much in the attitude of those who
would deny proper opportunity to women today. He shows how our common
faith is one that commands us to stand against political or religious injustice or
disservice to truth in whatever form. He is a sign of our times, a sign of the
direction in which God is leading us all.35

Imam Mohammed Challenged Racial Religious Thinking with C.R.A.I.D.

Much more can be said about the interfaith efforts of Imam Mohammed.

During the “Ethnic Survival” and “C.R.U.C.I.A.L” series of meetings in 1977 with

other African American leaders, Imam Mohammed focused on addressing “ancient

scriptural symbolism and its effect on modern-day scriptural and religious

interpretation.” 36 Furthermore, he elaborated on how “colors in scripture triggered

34
Ibid.
35
Ibid.
36
Rasheed., Evolution of a Community, 24-26.

47
racist influences in religious society.”37 In his discussion of images in religion and

racism, Imam Warith Deen expressed, “the strongest wedge between non-Caucasians

and Caucasians is a Caucasian image of God on the cross.”38

Imam Mohammed moved to Oakland, California, as head of the newly named

American Muslim Mission. As “Chief Imam,” Mohammed was focused on dawah,

meaning the teaching and propagation of Al-Islam through preaching and example.39

Momentum built from his earlier efforts had led to the development of the “Committee

for the Removal of All Images that attempt to portray Divine” (C.R.A.I.D.).40 This

was the first major community-wide interfaith effort.41 Major C.R.A.I.D. rallies were

held all over the country.

The result of the C.R.A.I.D. efforts was opening of conversations with many

African American church leaders. Distinguished Psychologist, Na’im Akbar, then

founder and head of the Office of Human Development for the Nation of Islam,

promoted these ideas to the Association of Black Psychologists.42 This eventually

37
Ibid.
38
Ibid.
39
Ibid.
40
Ibid.
41
Ibid.
42
Akbar, N. Chains and Images of Psychological Slavery (Jersey City, NJ: New Mind
Productions, 1984).

48
resulted in passage of an official resolution by the Association on the negative

psychological effects of racial images of the divine.43

At the height of the efforts, many black church leaders did remove racial

images of God from their churches.44 Some replaced the Caucasian images of Jesus

with an African American image of Jesus while others simply refused. Mohammed

used this initiative to address deep seated stigmas around race, religious imagery, and

sacred symbolism. He also further educated African Americans about authentic

Islamic teachings on race, images, and the community’s views on these topics.

Overzealous members were more confrontational in their promotion of CRAID which

greatly differed from Mohammed’s intended approach. For a number of reasons, the

C.R.A.I.D. efforts disbanded after 1984.45

An Ever Growing Community

After losing the probate court battle, Imam Mohammed returned to the

collective efforts in economics programs that more closely mirrored his father’s

efforts. Unlike the Nation of Islam’s No. 2 poor fund, the American Muslim Mission

Committee to purchase One-hundred thousand commodities Plus (AMMCOP) was

established to pool community resources in several local chapters.46 The move to

transfer masjid administrative duties and responsibilities to local imams allowed Imam

43
Ibid.
44
Rasheed., Evolution of a Community, 10-30.
45
Mohammed, S., “The C.R.A.I.D. Committee of Atlanta” (video), 1983.
46
Rasheed., Evolution of a Community 29-31.

49
Mohammed to propagate his message broadly.47 Imam Warith Deen declared “the key

to economic development is getting your life in order.”48 He encouraged personal

responsibility and “the need to reflect critically on one’s situation and address it with

the best knowledge, found in Islamic leadership.”49

Imam Mohammed Receives Political Recognition

During the 1980s, Imam Mohammed’s message had begun to catch on

permanently with the membership. New members were embracing the message and

working to implement it in various ways. Construction of Masjid Bilal in Cleveland,

Ohio, was completed, the first masjid built from the ground up by African American

Muslims.50 Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton recognized the leadership of Imam Warith

Deen Mohammed and the efforts the American Muslim Mission to usher citizens down

a path towards economic progress.51 Imam Ronald Shakir in Baltimore opened a

session of the state legislature with the Muslim prayer, Al-Fatiha.52

Imam Mohammed would later give the invocation on the floor of the United

States Senate on February 6, 1992.53 In 1993, Warith Deen addressed national leaders

47
Ibid., 29-31.
48
Ibid., 30-31.
49
Ibid., 30-31.
50
Ibid., 31-33.
51
Ibid., 31-33.
52
Ibid., 31-33.
53
Ibid, 44.

50
at President Clinton’s Inaugural Interfaith Prayer Service in Washington, DC, stressing

the importance of faith communities working together for the betterment of

humanity.54 In 1995, “he addressed a conference of Muslims and Reform Jews, and

participated in several major interfaith dialogues with Roman Catholic cardinals.55 He

continued to lecture weekly all across America and travel extensively internationally.56

Imam Mohammed on Desert Storm

Imam Mohammed’s international profile grew even larger after he expressed

public opposition57 to Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait, as part of a delegation of American

Muslim leaders and scholars to Saudi Arabia discussing the increasing tensions in the

Gulf war.58 Mohammed’s rationale for this stance was that “Al-Islam supersedes

nationalism.” 59 On the issue of Palestine, Imam Mohammed was firmly against Israeli

abuses of authority and settlement building. Regarding violence, Imam Mohammed,

now a U.S. representative member of the Supreme Council of Masajid, a Saudi

Arabian based organization, “urged the Palestinians to reject any idea that is in conflict

54
Ibid, 45.
55
New York Times, (September 10, 2008).
56
Chicago Tribune, (February 10, 1993).
57
Ibid.
58
Rasheed., Evolution of a Community.
59
Ibid.

51
with the Qur’an and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad” in their struggle for freedom,

justice, and equality in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.60

Imam Mohammed and Pope John Paul II

Imam Mohammed greeted Pope John Paul II in 1996.61 This meeting, to some,

seemingly arranged in the heavens, was the result of “an accidental convergence in

Baltimore in August 1995.” 62 Imam Warith Deen Mohammed met both Cardinal

William Keeler of Baltimore and Cardinal Francis Arinze, President of the Pontifical

Council for Interreligious Dialogue. The Pontifical Council is the office that was

created by Pope Paul VI to implement Vatican II’s Declaration on The Relation of the

Church to Non-Christian Religions throughout the Catholic Church.”63 John Borelli, a

former member of the Secretariat for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs at the

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, recounted this event at his 2007 Isaac

Hecker Lecture. Building on the good spirit from the simultaneous visits of Imam

Mohammed and Cardinal Arinze to Baltimore in August 1995, Borelli worked with

Imam Mohammed’s associates to plan a series of accompanied meetings or dialogues

for mutual understanding between Catholics and associates of W. D. Mohammed. The

dialogue lasted for several meetings. When Pope John Paul II visited Baltimore later

60
Ibid.
61
New York Times, (September 10, 2008).

62
Borelli, The Catholic Church and Islam.

63
Ibid.

52
in 1995, Imam Mohammed asked Cardinal Keeler for a meeting. The cardinal felt that

the already heavily scheduled visit was not the best occasion. Cardinal Keeler asked

Imam Mohammed for patience. Imams Earl and Eric El-Amin participated in an

interfaith even on that papal visit to Baltimore.

In October 1996, Imam Mohammed and several of his associates accompanied

Cardinal Keeler to Rome at the cardinal’s invitation.64 Imam Mohammed and his

associates met with several Catholic officials and others promoting interfaith

understanding, but the event which made the lasting impression was the meeting with

Chiara Lubich’s Focolare Movement.65 In return, Chiara Lubich visited Harlem, New

York, in 1997, met with Imam Mohammed, and gave an address at Masjid Malcolm

Shabazz.66 This led to an invitation to Imam Mohammed to attend and give one of the

closing prayers at the Interfaith celebration of Jubilee Year 2000 on October 28, 1999

and again greeting His Holiness John Paul II.67 In this brief prayer, Imam Mohammed

focused on the unity of humanity under the Creator. He also urged working together to

promote goodness throughout the world as one of the major aims of religion.68

In the mid-90s, Imam Mohammed’s community was thriving. The Wall Street

Journal estimated a 200,000 member community with 700 mosques, up from 80,000

64
Ibid.
65
Ibid.
66
Ibid.
67
Ibid.
68
Ibid.

53
members and 250 temples in 1975’s Nation of Islam.69 Other estimates placed the

community size close to 2 million members.70

Reconciliation with Minister Farrakhan

While there remained a mutual respect between Minster Farrakhan and Imam

Mohammed, there had been no true public reconciliation. In 1999, while ailing from

prostate cancer, Minister Farrakhan reached out to Imam Warith Deen Mohammed,

and the two began the process towards reconciliation.71 As reported in The Chicago

Tribune, “It was major news in the African American press when Imam Mohammed

and Mr. Farrakhan appeared together in Chicago in 2000.”72

Post 9/11 Insights

Immediately after September 11, 2001, Imam Mohammed’s major message was

one of caution to the Muslim faithful who attended his Friday jumu’ah khutbah on

September 14, 2001.73 He encouraged modest dress but advocated men and women

not wearing traditional Islamic dress for fear of persecution. He also spoke out

strongly against the actions of the terrorists or moral grounds from the Qur’an.

69
Wall Street Journal, (July 9, 1999).
70
New York Times, (September 10, 2008).
71
Ibid.
72
Chicago Tribune, (September 10, 2008).
73
Jumu’ah khutbah is Arabic for “Friday sermon.” As a pillar of faith, Muslims are required to
pray five times daily. On Friday, they are required to congregate during the early afternoon hour for a
congregational this jumu’ah sermon and prayer service.

54
As transcribed, Mohammed expressed:

I will love this for G-d. I will love this for Muhammed, the Prophet. And when
people disgrace their claim to be followers of the word and disgrace their
claim to be followers of Muhammed, the Prophet, by going to such
extremes where they are no more human, they are monsters. They are just
machines carrying out a horrible act. We have to let our hearts go only to G-d
and His messenger and to the decent Muslims who live and respect the religion
as it should be respected. So don’t let yourself sympathize with the
terrorists, not in any way. Don’t say, “Well, it wouldn’t have happened, if
such and such had happened.” No, they are the ones that had their tests. The
Middle East is a test for them and they failed their test, got off their Muslim life
and behavior and they got into the behavior of demons, suicidal demons.74

Imam Mohammed later gave a public interview on the tragic events of 9/11 on the

television program, “Tony Brown’s Journal.” Regarding other public statements

against 9/11 demonstrating unity with faith communities, Mohammed joined Bishop

Tod Brown, Chairman of The Bishops’ Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious

Affairs, in signing a joint statement with him and four other Muslim leaders in the

United States.

Muslim American Society and Beyond

The community had now become the Muslim American Society and later the

American Society of Muslims. Imam Mohammed would eventually resign from

community leadership altogether and focus on his Islamic dawah efforts and education

of those members associated with his leadership through his non-profit The Mosque

74
Mohammed, W. D. “Jumu'ah Khutbah: 'Terrorism'” (lecture, Homewood Hotel, Harvey,
Illinois, September 14, 2001). Bold emphasis appears in original transcript of the sermon.

55
Cares.75 This was how he remained with the community until his passing on

September 9, 2008.

Thanks in large part to the pioneering efforts of Imam Mohammed, an

indigenous Islam had sprouted and is growing in this western environment, offering

hope for an even brighter future. The U.S. State Department uses American Muslim

“hip-hop envoys to Muslim countries around the world” to create a more positive

impression of America.76 Indigenous American Muslims have also developed lasting

interfaith relationships and have become productive contributors to every facet of

American society. Imam Warith Deen Mohammed’s prayer at the Vatican in 1999,

Chiara Lubich’s address at Harlem’s Masjid Malcolm Shabazz,77 the election of two

Muslims as United States Congressional Representatives (Keith Ellison, Minnesota;

Andre Carson, Indiana) as well as the existence of numerous American Muslim judges,

lawyers, doctors, policemen, firemen, chaplains, military servicemen, engineers,

teachers, nurses serving as productive citizens contributing to American society offer

hope that Muslims in America may spark of a renaissance in the East, the original

home of Al-Islam, that will transform the future of Christian-Muslim relationships.

75
Ibid.
76
Aidi, interviewed by NPR Staff, March 16, 2014.

77
Borelli, The Catholic Church and Islam.

56
 This author’s analysis of how Imam Mohammed transformed the radical

thought of the Nation of Islam from black supremacy to Al-Islam as a universal faith

that peacefully embraces humanity, gives an example for solving today’s turmoil.

Recently, seventeen American states have passed constitutional amendments

outlawing sharia law. The chairman of the House Committee on Homeland Security

has held five hearing on radicalization within the Muslim-American community as a

threat to safety, security and the prevention of violence.78 Imam Mohammed’s pursuit

of interfaith alliances using the Qur’an and life example of Muhammad the Prophet

provides strategy for countering radicalization from Muslim extremist groups today.

Studying his teaching and methodology offers insights and presents additional non-

military solutions to the problems we Americans face in this age of terror. Dr. Yvonne

Haddad summed up Imam Mohammed’s contributions for the Chicago Tribune after

his death, “He single-handedly re-educated many of the imams schooled by the Nation

of Islam, restoring their American patriotism and the original teachings of Islam…He

will be remembered as a person who brought the Nation of Islam carefully and

consistently into mainline Islam.”79

Imam Warith Deen Mohammed passed away on September 9, 2008. His

tremendous lifetime of works “left the Muslim American community a blueprint of

leadership that, if Muslim Americans would embrace and follow, could become

78
Stone, Peter King.
79
Chicago Tribune, (September 10, 2008).

57
beneficial and a beacon of light for the American society and the world at large.”80

Imam Mohammed’s work is a sign of what can be accomplished with strong faith,

broad vision, hard work, and adherence to fundamental, simple, universal truths and

human values.

80
Salahuddin Muhammad, America's Imam: Warith Deen Mohammed's Interpretation of Islam
in the Milieu of the American Society (unknown), 48-49.

58
 CHAPTER 3

THE DIALOGUES

The interfaith dialogues established between the Catholic Church and the

Muslim American Society were partially possible due to the monumental shift in the

Church’s approach to Non-Catholics and Non-Christian, resulting from the Second

Vatican Council. While Catholic scholars such as Louis Massignon, Monsignor Paulo

Mulla, and Fr. Felix Pareja and many others had embraced the study of Islam and

taught accurately about Islam, the Church did not have an official structured path for

dialogue with Muslims and other Non-Christians until the Second Vatican Council. 1

The Second Vatican Council produced statements which demonstrated a clear shift

towards ecumenical and interreligious dialogue. The most relevant portions of the

Vatican II documents for this chapter are: the Decree on Ecumenism (Unitatis

Redintegratio), the Declaration on Religious Liberty (Dignitatis Humanae), Dogmatic

Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium), and the Declaration on the Relation of

the Church to Non-Christian Religions (Nostra Aetate).2 In 1964, Pope Paul VI

established a special department of the Roman Curia for relationships with members of

other faiths entitled the Secretariat for Non Christians. This signaled a positive

beginning for future Muslim-Christian dialogue. Later, in 1988, Pope John Paul II

renamed the department the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue.

1
John Borelli, "The Complicated Journey of Nostra Aetate, The Twenty-Second Monsignor
John M. Oesterreicher Memorial Lecture" (lecture, Fiftieth Anniversary of Vatican Council II, Seton
Hall University, South Orange, NJ, March 29, 2017).
2
Borelli, The Catholic Church and Islam.

59
 Pope John Paul II was vigorously committed to fulfilling these pronouncements

from Vatican II.3 In 1985, Pope John Paul II appointed Cardinal Francis Arinze to

head the Secretariat for Non Christians, later the Pontifical Council for Interreligious

Dialogue in 1988.4 Cardinal Arinze was responsible for accomplishing the goals of the

Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue (PCID). The mission and goals of PCID

included promoting mutual understanding, respect and collaboration between Catholics

and the followers of others religious traditions, encouraging the study of religions, and

promoting the formation of persons dedicated to dialogue. 5

From 1987 to 2003, Dr. John Borelli was the Associate Director of the

Secretariat for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs at the U.S. Conference of

Catholic Bishops. He was responsible for coordinating and overseeing interreligious

dialogue with Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus in the United States of America.6

While serving in this role, John Borelli was contacted by two members of the Muslim

American Society, Earl and Eric El-Amin. 7

3
Ibid.
4
"THE PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE," THE
PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR INTERRELIGIOUS DIALOGUE, , accessed March 31, 2017,
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_pro_2005199
6_en.html.
5
Ibid.
6
Borelli, The Catholic Church and Islam.
7
"Edited Interview with Imam Earl El-Amin," interview by author, September 18, 2016.

60
 The El-Amin brothers had been very active with interfaith dialogue in

Baltimore since the mid-1980s. 8 Their work brought them in close contact with the

Catholic Charities and other Catholic organizations in Baltimore. 9 The El-Amin

brothers had obtained John Borelli’s contact information as a key point person for

developing further interfaith opportunities with the U.S. Conference of Catholic

Bishops. 10 The brothers informed John Borelli that Imam Warith Deen Mohammed

would be in town for a special community event in August 1995. John Borelli was in

the process of inviting Muslims to attend a special address by Cardinal Arinze on

August 9, 1995, at the offices of Catholic Relief Services in Baltimore. He invited

Imam Mohammed and his associates to be among the guests at the event. 11

The First Meeting: August 9, 1995

Dr. John Borelli, a consultor to Cardinal Arinze’s office in Rome, had

requested Catholic Relief Services to host an address by Cardinal Arinze in

Baltimore.12 Cardinal Arinze’s address was entitled “Interreligious Relations in a

Pluralistic World.” John Borelli also worked with the Archbishop of Baltimore,

8
Ibid.
9
Ibid.
10
Ibid.
11
Borelli, The Catholic Church and Islam.
12
John Borelli, "A Remarkable Coincidence: The fact that Chiara Lubich spoke at the Malcolm
Shabazz Mosque in May 1997 was due to a God-given set of circumstances," Living City Magazine,
May 2012.

61
Cardinal William Keeler, in scheduling the address at the Offices of Catholic Relief

Services. 13

On August 9, 1995, Cardinal Arinze gave a thorough history of the Church’s

efforts and works in interreligious dialogue with Muslims in the years since Vatican

II.14 Cardinal Arinze discussed the necessity of interreligious dialogue, especially

given that Islam and Christianity are the most widespread religions in the world. He

ended with an appeal: “Fellow believers in God…it is expected of us that we do not

waste the opportunities for interreligious relations which the good God offers us.” 15

After the address, John Borelli and Cardinal Keeler had arranged for Imam

Mohammed and his associates to visit the Cardinal’s Residence in Baltimore.16 This

new friendship between Cardinal Keeler and Imam Mohammed was blossoming into a

working relationship.

Getting Acquainted: Four Meetings 1995-1996

After the initial August 1995 meeting, Bishop John Ricard, an African

American auxiliary bishop of Baltimore, hosted a series of meetings between members

of the Muslim American Society representing the Ministry of W. D. Mohammed and

13
Ibid.
14
Cardinal Arinze, "Interreligious Relations in a Pluralistic World," Origins Catholic News
Service documentary service 25, no. 14 (September 21, 1995): , doi:http://www.originsonline.com.
15
Ibid.
16
Borelli, A Remarkable Coincidence.

62
the National Conference of Catholic Bishops (NCCB).17 One meeting was held in

1995. Three meetings were held on January 25, April 30, and July 10 in 1996.18

Eventually, the meetings were co-led by Bishop John Richard and Imam Earl

Abdul-Malik Muhammad. The subjects covered primarily included areas of

cooperation between the faith communities, educational programs, local interfaith

dialogue events, and the possible issuing of joint statements regarding shared religious

and moral values in American society. 19 During one of the meetings, Imam Earl

Abdul-Malik Muhammad and Bishop John H. Ricard discussed sin and forgiveness.

Those in attendance reached a deeper level of exchange through this discussion. 20

For the July 10, 1996 meeting, Bishop Ricard hosted Imam Earl El-Amin,

Imam Eric El-Amin, with Mrs. Beverly Carroll, Director of the NCCB Secretariat for

African American Catholics, Dr. Borelli, and Fr. J. Augustine DiNoia, Director of the

NCCB Secretariat for Doctrine and Pastoral Practices. The dialogue members

proposed having further dialogues for a three to five-year period to explore the role of

religion in American society. 21 As a result of these meetings, an agreement was

reached to organize a formal dialogue on the topic of “religion in America,” to

17
Ibid. The NCCB became the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops in 2001.
18
"Report from the Dialogue between the Ministry of Warith Deen Mohammed the National
Conference of Catholic Bishops," John Borelli to Imam W. D. Mohammed and the Bishops’ Committee
for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, July 19, 1996, United States, Washington, DC.
19
Ibid.
20
Ibid.
21
Ibid.

63
emphasize the contributions of Catholics and Muslims to American life.22 Though a

well-designed program for dialogue, it was never pursued after Imam Mohammed’s

visit to Rome. Rather, associates of Imam Mohammed participated in the ensuing

regional Catholic-Muslim dialogues, beginning in 1996 in Indianapolis, then beginning

in New York in 1998, and then beginning on the west coast in 2000. 23

First Visit to the Vatican: October 1996

During his initial August 1995 meeting with Archbishop Cardinal Keeler,

Imam Mohammed requested to schedule a meeting the Pope John Paul II during his

October 1995 visit to Baltimore. 24 Cardinal Keeler suggested his Baltimore

representatives come to the event, while he suggested that Imam Mohammed instead

accompany him to meet the Pope in Rome at a later date. 25 Cardinal Keeler also

surmised that the Muslim American Society would be a good match for interreligious

dialogue with the Catholic lay community, Focolare, headed by Chiara Lubich. 26 The

initial introduction would happen once the trip to Rome took place.

On October 2, 1996, Cardinal William Keeler introduced Imam W. D.

Mohammed to Pope John Paul II at the weekly Wednesday Public Audience.27 Imam

22
"Relations with National Conference of Catholic Bishops," letter from John Borelli, May
1997, United States, Washington, D.C.
23
Ibid.
24
Borelli, A Remarkable Coincidence.
25
Ibid.
26
Ibid.
27
Borelli, Relations with National Conference of Catholic Bishops.

64
Mohammed and his delegation of associates were received by Cardinal Arinze and the

Staff of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. 28 They were later received

by Cardinal Etchegaray and the staff of the Pontifical Council for Justice. The Muslim

American delegation afterwards met with the faculty of the Pontifical Institute for

Arabic and Islamic Studies and toured St. Peter’s Basilica, The Sistine Chapel, and the

Vatican Library.29

After visiting various Pontifical offices at the Vatican, Imam Mohammed and

his associates were introduced to Catholic lay communities.30 Imam Mohammed

delivered a lecture on his visit to the Community of Sant’ Egidio. The Sant’ Egidio is

a prominent Catholic association which promoted political and religious reconciliation

in Africa. 31 Between visits, the Muslim delegation performed their mid-day prayers at

the Rome Mosque and met the imam and director. 32 Incidentally, according to Dr.

Borelli, on Friday, October 4, 1996, Imam Mohammed and his associates went to St.

Peter’s in the morning and to the Rome mosque in the afternoon.

On October 5, 1996, Imam Mohammed and his delegation were received at the

Focolare Center at Castel Gandolfo, for a presentation and dinner with the Focolare

Community. Accompanied by Bishop Ricard, Imam Mohammed met with Natalia

28
Ibid.
29
Ibid.
30
Ibid.
31
Ibid.
32
Ibid.

65
Dallapiccola and Enzo Fondi, directors of the Focolare Center for Interreligious

Dialogue.33 Imam Mohammed also met Sharry Silvi and Julian Ciabattini, directors

and representatives of the Focolare Movement in the United States. 34 Although Chiara

Lubich was unable to attend this event, Imam Mohammed invited her personally to

Masjid Malcolm Shabazz in Harlem, New York. 35

On January 28, 1997, representatives of the Muslim American Society

participated in a public program of dialogue in LaCrosse, WI, with Bishop Raymond

Burke of LaCrosse. 36 On February 22, 1997, representatives of the Muslim American

Society participated in a public program in Wilmington, DE, with Bishop Michael

Saltarelli of Wilmington among the participants. 37

Building Relationships with The Focolare Movement 1997-1998

On Sunday, May 18, 1997, Imam Mohammed and Chiara Lubich, Founder of

the Focolare Movement, met in a public program at the Masjid Malcom Shabazz in

Harlem.38 Over 200 Muslims and members of Focolare were in attendance. 39 This

33
Borelli, A Remarkable Coincidence.
34
Ibid.
35
Ibid.
36
Borelli, Relations with National Conference of Catholic Bishops.
37
Ibid.
38
TheCleanGlass, "Imam W. Deen Mohammed and Chiara Lubich," YouTube, October 27,
2011, accessed April 20, 2014, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAsvW46U-AQ.
39
Ibid.

66
was a tremendously powerful moment of international significance.40 After this

meeting, Chiara Lubich initiated a pact which Imam Mohammed accepted.41 Chiara

Lubich’s words were, “Let’s make a pact, in the name of the one God, to work

unceasingly for peace and for unity.”42 Imam Warith Deen Mohammed responded,

“This pact is made forever…May God be my witness that you are my sister. I am your

friend and I will help you always.” 43 This was more than a simple exchange of words

between the two leaders. The pact demonstrated a sincere aspiration for Muslim and

Christian communities to work collectively towards peace. This powerful moment

cemented the hearts of these great religious leaders and weaved a fabric that would

forever bind the two communities.

There were subsequent meetings with Imam Mohammed and/or his

representatives from the Muslim American Society at the Focolare’s Mariapolis in

Hyde Park, New York. In June 1998, a large delegation of members of the Muslim

American Society were invited to Italy to the third Annual Meeting of Focolare and

Muslim Friends of the Focolare.44 Muslims were represented from over twenty-four

40
Sharry Silvi, "Such a Powerful Moment: At Chiara's side that day in Harlem," Living City,
May 2012.
41
Ibid.
42
Ibid.
43
Ibid.
44
TheCleanGlass, Imam W. Deen Mohammed and Chiara Lubich.

67
countries. The largest delegation of Muslims was from the United States, representing

the community of Imam W. D. Mohammed. 45

Imam Mohammed Delivers Prayer at the Vatican

Interreligious Jubilee before Pope John Paul II: October 1999

In late October 1999, Imam W. D. Mohammed and delegation of members of

the Muslim American Society were hosted at a Friends of the Focolare event in

Rome.46 Chiara Lubich spoke on the theme of Prayer, Meditation, and Union with

God. She expressed to the audience, “Prayer is the breath of the soul.” 47 Imam W. D.

Mohammed had been invited to offer a prayer at the Interreligious Assembly Jubilee at

the Vatican, attended by Pope John Paul II. 48 The Interreligious Assembly was held

from October 25 through October 28, 1999. During the closing ceremony, Imam W.

D. Mohammed gave prayer on the steps of St. Peter’s Basilica. 49 What follows are

Imam W. Deen Mohammed’s words on this occasion:

With the Name of Allah, The Merciful Benefactor, The Merciful Redeemer, we
dearly regard this invitation to take part in this Vatican Interreligious
Gathering. Servants of God from the Heavenly faith communities of the world,
we are joining one another here at the Vatican in Rome with His Holiness John
Paul II because Muslims, Christians, Jews and others share basic values and a
belief in a virtuous life that wants justice and peace for all….We thank Allah
for this occasion for leaders from the Great Religions to meet here in this Holy
City of the Catholics, hosted by His Holiness Pope John Paul II, their leader
who has our delegation among his many Muslim well wishers and fervent

45
Ibid.
46
Ibid.
47
Ibid.
48
Borelli, A Remarkable Coincidence.
49
Ibid.

68
 admirers. I have devoted my whole life to building bridges. Inclusion was in
my heart; I wanted that and I think my father conditioned me to want that. That
is, not to be separated but to be with all good people. I wholeheartedly accept
and embrace with you the idea of unity, mutual sharing, and love for one
another. We have to be conditioned to have peace. God has given us the
requirements that we have to meet for a life of faith in him. And when we meet
these conditions, we do have peace. There are many convincing signs
everywhere. Those with open eyes, belief and faith, will see them and will hear
sounds everywhere that goodness is no the rise. We are living in a time of
revival, a revival of the true life that God put into the human souls, when he
created the first person. A new world of faith community is on the rise.50

Speaking to the historical significance of this event, Imam Ronald Shaheed, a

pillar of interfaith dialogue in the Muslim American Society who was in attendance

remarked:

The meeting at the Vatican for the inter-religious assembly in 1999 was
probably the most profound experience I had because of all of those different
religious leaders and everything that was there, plus the Catholics. I think there
was in the audiences, maybe, they said, they felt quarter of a million people in
the audience. When you look out all you could see was people out there in
Vatican Square. Plus they had Vatican television was filming it and they were
shooting it out across the world… That was most impressive. Yeah. It was a
good day. It was an excellent day. I mean, you couldn't have asked for a better
weather and the spirit for interfaith was there. You’ve got all these religious,
more than 22 religious leaders from across the world. You even had Native
American tribal leaders who were there from the United States. Of course, Pope
John Paul II, he was an older man and in the eighties … he sat there quietly and
the only time that he got up was when Imam finished talking. Imam was the
only one who went over to him and he kissed him on his right cheek I think and
then on his left shoulder. He kissed him on his right cheek and you could tell
they were talking and then they shook hands and hugged each other; then Imam
kissed him on his right shoulder, then he went back to his seat…and of course
the Dalai Lama was there, Chiara Lubich. All the great leaders they were there.
Religious leaders.... to me it had world implications for [the] future [of the]
world. That's how I felt. I felt that this was a picture of what it could be and
should be like. Respect for all religions. Respect for all attempts to understand

50
Towards a culture of dialogue: interreligious assembly, Vatican City, 25-28 October
1999 (Vatican City: Central Committee for the Great Jubilee of the Year 2000, 2000).

69
 the reality of God that the religions represent and even though it was in the
Vatican, it wasn't a quote-quote Catholic thing. It was a religious thing. 51

A Growing Friendship: Imam Mohammed and Chiara Lubich 1999-2000

After the October prayer at Saint Peter’s, Imam Mohammed joined Chiara

Lubich in Amman, Jordan at a Friends of the Focolare event. 52 He spoke about his

meeting with Pope John Paul II at the Vatican side by side with Chiara Lubich. 53 The

relationship between communities continued to blossom. Members of the Muslim

American Society and Focolare were having local interfaith dialogues and building

friendships across faiths.

In September 2000, members of Focolare addressed the community of Imam

W. D. Mohammed during the public address portion of the annual Muslim American

Society convention54 The efforts culminated in an interfaith convention style program

on November 10-12, 2000. The title of the event was “Towards the Harmonious

Living of the Human Family: Faith Communities Together.” 55 The program was held

with great participation from the Muslim American Society and Focolare community

in Washington DC. 56 Chiara Lubich and Imam W. D. Mohammed were in

51
"Edited Interview with Imam Ronald Shaheed," interview by author, September 3, 2016.

52
Ibid.
53
TheCleanGlass, "Imam W. Deen Mohammed and Chiara Lubich."
54
Ibid.
55
Ibid.
56
Ibid.

70
attendance.57 The thoughts, sentiments, and experiences of those involved in these

meetings will be explored in the chapters that follow.

57
Ibid.

71
 CHAPTER 4

EVALUATING THE DIALOGUES

Research Methodology

There were several interfaith meetings over a five-year period that require

further research and evaluation. The research methodologies employed here were

general qualitative guided interviews. The questions were developed based on an

analysis of a July 2004 Special Report by the United States Institute of Peace, which

detailed a method for evaluating interfaith dialogue programs. 58 This chapter tests this

hypothesis by conducting an analysis of the interfaith dialogue between representatives

of the Catholic Church, notably Focolare, and the late Muslim American leader, Imam

Warith Deen Mohammed, and his associates. Specifically, it applies the analysis to

assess and evaluate the meetings and interfaith dialogue between the Catholic Church

and the Muslim American Society. In order to measure the impact and effectiveness of

these dialogues, qualitative research questions were developed based on best practices

of the latest qualitative research and evaluation methods.59 Using this evaluation

methodology, this chapter will apply this analytical method to the various meetings and

dialogue between the two parties.

After reviewing relevant literature on the subject matter, it was determined to

focus the research on prominent members of the indigenous Muslim American

58
Garfinkel, What Works?.
59
Michael Quinn. Patton, Qualitative Research and Evaluation Methods (Estados Unidos: Sage
Publications, 2002).

72
community of Imam W. D. Mohammed, since very little had been written from their

perspective in academic publications. Five well known members of the indigenous

Muslim American Society were interviewed.60 They agreed to have their interviews

recorded and transcribed for research purposes. The transcripts were coded and

evaluated to provide results and conclusions that measured the impact and

effectiveness of the dialogue. Future implications of the research will also be

considered.

The material of this chapter is from the articles that historically document the

meetings, programs, speeches, and nature of the relationship between Imam

Mohammed, the Muslim American Society, and different representatives of the

Catholic Church, including the Focolare, a number of which are written by my thesis

mentor, Dr. John Borelli. Additional sources include articles from the Muslim Journal

newspaper, transcripts of lectures by Imam Warith Deen Mohammed, and interviews

of living participants in the meetings. Interviews were conducted with Imam Earl El-

Amin, the late Sister Amatullah Sharif, Dr. Mikal Ramadan, Sister Laila Muhammad,

and Imam Ronald Shaheed.

60 The Muslim American Society was the name of the community association of Muslim

American mosques led by Imam Warith Deen Mohammed at the time of the interfaith dialogues which
are the subject of this research. After a naming dispute with an unrelated non-profit organization of the
same name, Imam Mohammed formally changed the name of the organization to the American Society
of Muslims.

73
 Developing Qualitative Research Questions

The United States Institute of Peace’s study provided recommendations on how

to determine effectively and measure the impact of interfaith dialogue.61 Participants

in the study were interviewed and evaluated from the inception until the end of the

process. They responded to interview questions, which examined their attitudes,

knowledge, and beliefs about other religions; information about the frequency and

quality of interfaith interactions they had experienced; and what attitudes participants

had towards the idea of peaceful interaction with other religious communities. 62 Using

the qualitative research interview questions, participants were evaluated on their

attitudes before the dialogues began, during the process of the dialogues, and after the

dialogues had ended.

Since an active evaluation of the inception and process of these past dialogues

is not possible, research for this chapter extracted information about the attitudes,

knowledge, beliefs, goals and intentions of the faith leaders involved in these dialogues

based on their writings, speeches, addresses, memorandums, and lectures. In some

instances, they answered direct questions or had specific comments and references to

this dialogue experience. Such explicit feedback was essential to the success of this

research project.

A complete copy of the research questions can be found in the appendix. The

specific questions which will be analyzed for this section of the chapter are as follows:

61
Ibid.
62
Ibid.

74
 1. Are there any insights you have as to why Imam Mohammed pursued this
dialogue?
2. What do you think his intentions were?
3. What do you think Imam Mohammed/Chiara Lubich/Pope John Paul II hoped
would result from these dialogues?.
4. What did Imam Mohammed’s meeting at the Vatican with Pope John Paul II
mean to you? 63
5. What did Imam Mohammed’s meeting with Chiara Lubich of the Focolare
movement mean to you?
6. In your opinion, were these dialogues successful? Why? Why not?
7. In your opinion, were these dialogues effective? Why? Why not?
8. Was this experience beneficial to you? To our communities?

Pope John Paul II: His Holiness’ Approach to Dialogue with Muslims

During the course of researching this thesis, no explicit remarks regarding the

thoughts of Pope John Paul II concerning these specific dialogues were found.

However, Pope John Paul II delivered countless speeches and written documents that

clearly expressed his intentions, goals, and thoughts relating to interreligious dialogue.

The following section of this chapter shares selected quotes from Pope John Paul II

regarding interreligious dialogue between Catholics and Muslims. Pope John Paul II,

to a symposium on “Holiness in Christianity and in Islam,” Rome, May 9, 1985, stated:

All true holiness comes from God, who is called ‘The Holy One’ in the sacred
books of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Your holy Qur’an calls God ‘Al-
Quddus,’ as in the verse: ‘He is God, besides whom there is no other, the
Sovereign, the Holy, the (source of) Peace’ (Qur’an 59, 23). The prophet Hosea
links God’s holiness with his forgiving love for mankind, a love which
surpasses our ability to comprehend: ‘I am God, not man; I am the Holy One in
your midst and have no wish to destroy’ (Hosea 11:9). In the Sermon on the
Mount (Matthew 5:48), Jesus teaches his disciples that holiness consists in
assuming, in our human way, the qualities of God’s own holiness which he has

63
The author notes that according to Vatican tradition, Imam Mohammed’s visit to Rome
consituted an official greeting of Pope John Paul II, not an actual meeting. If other unofficial meetings
took place, they were not recorded in a manner that could be sourced for this thesis. The research
questions developed did not explicitly reflect this distinction.

75
 revealed to mankind: ‘Be holy, even as your heavenly Father is holy.64

In his address to the young Muslims of Morocco, August 19, 1985, John Paul II orated:

Christians and Muslims have many things in common, as believers and as

human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but
also by multiple signs of anguish. For us, Abraham is a model of faith in God,
of submission to his will and of confidence in his goodness. We believe in the
same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and
brings his creatures to their perfection. . . .65

During his address at the General Audience, September 9, 1998, John Paul II, delivered

the words:

It must first be kept in mind that every quest of the human spirit for truth and
goodness, and in the last analysis for God, is inspired by the Holy Spirit. The
various religions arose precisely from this primordial openness to God. At their
origins we often find founders who, with the help of God’s Spirit, achieved a
deeper religious experience. Handed on to others, this experience took form in
the doctrines, rites and precepts of the various religions. 66

In his Message for World Day of Peace, January 1, 2002, John Paul II stated:

In this whole effort religious leaders have a weighty responsibility. The various
Christian confessions as well as the world’s great religions need to work
together to eliminate the social and cultural causes of terrorism. . . This is a
specific area of ecumenical and interreligious dialogue and cooperation, a
pressing service which religion can offer to world peace…. No peace without
justice, no justice without forgiveness: This is what in this message I wish to
say to believers and unbelievers alike, to all men and women of good will who
are concerned for the good of the human family and for the future.67

64
Borelli, The Catholic Church and Islam.

65
Ibid.
66
Ibid.
67
Ibid.

76
In a formal address to the Islamic Leaders of Senegal, Dakar, February 22, 1992, John

Paul II orated:

We Christians and Muslims must be people of dialogue. As I have often said,

and as the bishops of Senegal have repeated, this commitment to dialogue
means, first of all, “a dialogue of life,” a positive acceptance, interaction and
cooperation by which we bear active witness, as believers, to the ideals to
which God has called us….But our commitment to do God’s will leads us
beyond the task of living together in harmony. Modern life has many
problems. In dialogue, we who believe in the goodness of God have a special
duty to address the problems of our people and search together for solutions
which can make modern society more just, more human, more respectful of the
rights, dignity and human freedom of each individual.68

It is evident in his messages that Pope John Paul II sought to establish mutual respect,

peaceful understanding, and mutual spiritual growth through his promotion of

interreligious dialogue. At the same time, Pope John Paul II was bringing faith

communities together to work as one towards solving the worlds’ problems.

Imam Warith Deen Mohammed’s Remarks on the Dialogues

During the course of researching this thesis, interviews, speeches, lectures, and

writings containing the thoughts of Imam Warith Deen Mohammed concerning these

specific dialogues and relationships with representatives of the Catholic Church and

with Focolare were found. The following section of this chapter shares selected quotes

from Imam Warith Deen Mohammed regarding interreligious dialogue between

Catholics and Muslims in an effort to understand better his intentions, goals, and

thoughts relating to interreligious dialogue.

68
Byron L. Sherwin and Harold Kasimow, John Paul II and interreligious dialogue (Eugene,
OR: Wipf & Stock Publishers, 2005).

77
 In a transcript of his comments from an event with the Focolare at Castel

Gandolfo in Rome from June 1998, Imam Mohammed stated:

As-Salaamu Alaikum. Bismillahir-Rahman Nir-Raheem. (With G-d’s Name,

The Merciful Benefactor, The Merciful Redeemer). Was-salaatu was salaamu
Rasooluhul Kareem. Ma’bad (The prayers and peace be upon our noble
Messenger, and what follows of this salute…). Allah, Subhana wa Ta’Ala (the
Most High), says to us in the Qur’an, “Kanna-nas ummatan wahidah, the whole
humanity, all people were one community.” We are to understand that as a
community of people on this earth that is now global. And again, we are
beginning to see man as one community, one global community. That
community came out of one ancestor, and that is Adam, peace be upon him.
Both the Qur’an and the Bible say that…69
This is really G-d’s way of telling us, revealing to us, that our destiny is to
again become as we were in the beginning, one community; that in the end
human beings will identify themselves as one people, the human family, and
will accept to be one human family on this earth. This is what the Focolare are
stressing. That is the real support for our unity. We can’t unite on the basis
of the Qur’an because they have their own scripture. But we can unite on
the basis of our common creation. We are common creation made by G’d,
in our humanity. That means in the best of our human life. Our evolving,
progressing human life, that’s that humanity. In that, we are the same….70

At the occasion of the Focolare event “Encounters in the Spirit of Universal

Brotherhood” in Indianapolis, Indiana, Imam Mohammed expressed the following

regarding interfaith dialogue, universal brotherhood, and the importance of religion:

Religion has great influence. Most of the people of the world, whether they
think of it consciously or not they are religious. They are religious and there is
fear of God in all of us. Sometimes we’re cut off from it, we’ll lose it. We are
not even aware that the fear of God is in us but the fear of God is always in
most of us until death, and after, I believe, also. The fear of G-d is in us. If we
can show a picture of religion that gets the attention of those who are weak in
faith because of the troubles in the world, the troubles that the world makes for

69
Warith D. Mohammed, "Imam W. Deen Mohammed's comments on His visit to Rome with
the Focolare Movement" (address, 3rd Annual Meeting of Focolare and Muslim Friends of the Focolare,
Focolare International Center, Castel Gandolfo, Italy, June 14, 1998).
70
Ibid. Bold emphasis appears in the original transcript.

78
 their own personal lives, their family life, their religious life or family life, I
think we can reach them with a picture of religion that will make them think
again, rethink their own disposition, their own mind-set, and come from a bad
disposition to a better disposition where they will respect their own life more.
They’ll come back to a sense of personal value as a human being as that special
human being that God Himself created and put in the Garden before the world
spoiled everything for us. They will come back to that, God willing, and as a
result of just being conscious of Chiara Lubich’s worldwide movement and
Imam W. D. Mohammed’s ministry and those many that supported me
nationwide and some outside of the country, also, that they will be touched by
that and they will start to say, “Well, religion is good, and religion does have a
role in the world to change it for the better; and religion can reach me, though I
have lost faith in my religion, I’ve lost faith in my church, or I’ve lost faith in
my mosque.” Religion can reach them and they will wake up again. That is
my prayer that it will touch many who belong to God, to a religion. They
belong to a church or to a mosque but they are just lost because they are
disappointed and the world has disappointed them. We have failed locally as
Imams and church leaders. We have failed too, to present a picture that can get
their attention, their admiration and their respect. I think that is what we are
doing together. May God be with us always.71

In an unpublished interview by Imam Ghani on June 28, 2006, Imam W. D.

Mohammed offers his thinking leading up to the invitation to attend an audience with

Pope John Paul II in Rome:

I met with more than one of them [world leaders and religious leaders]. Again
doing things of G-d. In the religious experience people who were searching for
themselves wanted to discover where they should be in the world under G-d.
People who are searching for their destiny under G-d if they have had a
liberator, I don’t want to point to myself in this way but I have to, if they have
had a liberator he has been fortunate to be put in circumstances where that
liberator talks to the top ruler in the land. Joseph of the Bible and Yusuf the
same Joseph of the Qur’an, Moses, Muhammad peace be upon them, Jesus
Christ. Anyone who was important for G-d for leading people’s lives they had
to meet with the top rulers because G-d knows the little boy needs to meet with
the big men so he could see what is to them…I thought it was possible but
really I thought I would be rejected. My thoughts of me being rejected were

71
Warith D. Mohammed, "Comments by Imam W. Deen Mohammed" (address, Encounters in
the Spirit of Universal Brotherhood, Indiana, Indianapolis, April 22, 2006).

79
 much stronger than my thoughts that I would be welcomed to the Vatican and
be in the presence of the Pope John Paul II. But I said to myself I heard that
Rev. Jesse Jackson was the guest of the Vatican one time. Just on the strength
of him being accepted, my friend, the Rev. Jesse Jackson, I said I’m going to
make a try, and I did. So I expressed my desire to make a visit there and
someone may say and I can understand the question being asked, “Why would
the son of Elijah Muhammad and a Muslim want to go to the Holy See, Rome,
Italy, the Vatican? And be a guest or a visitor visiting the Pope of Catholicism
of the Catholic Church or the Catholic world under the Roman Catholic
Church?” So I knew it would be looked at as strange and people would wonder
why, but do you know what I said to myself? “If the Honorable Elijah
Mohammed’s son is accepted in the Vatican to have an audience with the Pope,
the head of the Catholic Church, that is going to make news everywhere and it
is going to say, “He is different. He does not dislike nor have anything against
Christians. He visited the Pope.” And it turned out to be much more in it for
me than what I thought would be in it for me. It became much more than I
expected. But just alone was enough for me. I said, “If I could just have it hit
the news that I visited the Pope and made the visit there as a Muslim who came
in friendship to speak with the Pope and have an audience with the Pope, that if
it is known it is going to free my community to move throughout the United
States and be more accepted by Christians. It is important. This is a Christian
country. It is extremely important that we go in friendship and move friendly
through these United States with our Christian brothers and sisters.72

This eye opening interview offered keen insight into Imam Mohammed’s sincere

religiously inspired strategy to engage and build friendships with the Christian

community. The interviewer asked a follow up question as to whether Imam

Mohammed embraces dialogue to help heal the hurt African Americans have

experienced while also engaging others who may still harbor hurtful ideas. Imam

Mohammed answers:

For Christians, Christ asks no less of the followers of Christian[ity] and for
Muslims, our G’d, Muhammad our Prophet asks no less of us; that we have a
heart that can have room in it for every person on this earth, for all people.

72
Imam W. D. Mohammed, "IWDM on Relationship with Catholic Church," interview by
Imam Ghani, June 28, 2006.

80
 Strong language is used in both Books, Bible Qur’an, urging us to become
charitable and open hearted where our hearts open up to accommodate all
people, welcome all people. But I have to say this, also. I’m a product of my
African American people’s experience, as a people coming from slavery to
freedom. I am a product of that road and that experience and that has worked
positively in me to connect me with all human being, because the issue is not
how they treat a certain color. The issue is how they treated human beings and
all people are human, do you see? So I am the fruit of Islam and the fruit of the
African American experience at the same time. 73

There are many more insightful remarks from articles, speeches, lectures, and

interviews that convey Imam W. D. Mohammed’s thoughts and ideas relating to the

dialogue experience. It is quite evident that he was driven to pursue such dialogues out

of his commitment to the religion of Al-Islam and living in sync with the model

Islamic example of Muhammad the Prophet, who built interfaith alliances throughout

his mission.74

Chiara Lubich’s Remarks on the Dialogues

During the course of researching this thesis, speeches, lectures, and writings

containing the thoughts of Chiara Lubich concerning these specific dialogues with

Imam W. D. Mohammed and the Muslim American Society were gathered. The

following section of this chapter shares selected quotes from Chiara Lubich regarding

interreligious dialogue between Catholics and Muslims in an effort to better understand

her intentions, goals, and thoughts relating to interreligious dialogue.

On the blessed day, May 18, 1997, at Harlem, New York’s Malcolm Shabazz

73
Ibid.
74
Muhammad Husayn. Haykal and Al Faruqi Ismail Ragi A., The Life of Muhammad,
translated from the 8th Edition by Ismail al Faruqi (Place of publication not identified: North American
Trust Publications, 1976).

81
Mosque, Chiara Lubich expressed the following words to the audience of hundreds of

Muslims and Focolare members packed to capacity in the mosque’s musallah prayer

hall:

I have been asked to speak about unity in the experience of the Focolare. A
better subject could not have been chosen because the ideal that the Focolare
lives is precisely unity. And its goal is to bring into the world that unity which
generates peace and promotes universal brotherhood. Unity is the “charism” –
that is, the gift of God – that underlies all that has come to life under the name
Focolare. The world today is filled with tensions: between rich countries and
poor countries, in the Middle East, in Africa. There are wars and threats of
more conflicts. And yet, in spite of everything and quite paradoxically, today’s
world is longing for unity, and therefore peace. Countries are trying to unite.
The World Conference on Religion and Peace seeks to unite all religions in
working to promote peace. Within Islam, we see a strong tendency toward an
evercloser collaboration on an international level. In Christianity, different
churches feel the need to move toward unity after centuries of mutual
indifference and even conflict. In the Catholic Church, the Second Vatican
Council spoke repeatedly about unity. Years of Islamic-Christian dialogue are
leaving their mark on history. One example of this was the historic meeting
between Pope John Paul II and 50,000 Muslim youth in Casablanca,
Morocco.75

How could we bring about unity? We found the key in that moment in Jesus’
life which for us Christians is the greatest sign of love; that is, when he suffered
on the cross for all the sins of the world, to the point of feeling forsaken by
God. And we felt urged to live as Jesus did, to imitate him by taking upon
ourselves, in a way, all the sufferings of humanity. From then on, wherever
there was suffering, wherever we encountered divisions or traumas, we felt that
that was where we belonged: to bring love into divided families, between
generations, among divided churches or where there are tensions between
believers and nonbelievers. And we saw that unity was reestablished and there
was a rebirth of hope, joy, and peace…We discovered that all religions teach
love of neighbor, though in different way. Benevolence and compassion, or at
least nonviolence, are present in many religions. Almost all of them have the
so-called Golden Rule which says: “Do not do to others what you would not
have them do to you.” An ancient Islamic writing says, “None of you is a

75
Chiara Lubich, "One Pact, One People: Wherever we are in the world, we are
together," Living City, May 2012.

82
 believer until you desire for your brother or sister what you desire for yourself.”
This love would be enough to bring all humanity together into one family…76

When Chiara was asked about her relationship with Imam Mohammed, she

replied:

I feel at ease with him because it seems to me that the Lord has put him next to
us, as he has put us next to him, perhaps for a plan of love of his, which we will
be able to understand in as much as we go ahead in our communion and by
working together.77

On October 25, 1999, at the Friends of the Focolare event at Castel Gandolfo in

Rome, Chiara Lubich spoke on the theme of Prayer, Meditation, and Union with God.

What follows is an excerpt of her words to the audience that evening:

Prayer is an essential element of one’s spiritual life. Without it, there is no true
spiritual life. We can live without eating, but not without breathing, and prayer
is the breath of the soul. I am well aware that I am speaking to believers in God
who know what prayer is. Indeed, I believe we could say that Islam is the
religion of prayer, not only because prayer, which you do five times a day, is
one of its five pillars, but also because every verse of the Qur’an, if said with
faith, is a prayer. Just think of the Sura that opens the Qur’an: “In the Name of
God, the Compassionate, the Merciful! Praise be to God, Lord of the
Universe…You alone we worship, and to You alone we turn for help. Guide us
to the straight path” (Qur’an 1:1-7). Prayer is something essential to our very
being, to being human. We are truly ourselves if we pray. Prayer is our
relationship with God. And because we have been created in the image and
likeness of God, we are capable of a personal I-Thou relationship with God.
We have understood that prayer is an integral part of human nature also through
our contact with brothers and sisters of other religions. We discovered
profound experiences of prayer in them which bear witness to a secret, but
effective, action of God that impels human beings to pray. And the same

76
Ibid.
77
"Imam W.D. Mohammed | Focolare Movement," [:en]Focolare Movement, September 09,
2016, accessed April 01, 2017, http://www.focolare.org/en/news/2016/07/09/imam-w-d-
mohammed/.

83
 applies to us Christians. We are brothers and sisters of Jesus; he is our model
when it comes to prayer. In fact, he didn’t only preach, work miracles, and call
disciples to follow him; he often immersed himself in prayer. There are many
prayers which enrich our life as Christians.78

In another passage of the address, Chiara Lubich expresses how seeking God through

prayer inspires love of your neighbor:

Generally speaking we do not seek God and we do not find him, first of all, in
the depths of our heart or in nature. We find him by loving our neighbor. Only
in this way are we guaranteed unity with him. We find him alive and vibrant in
our hearts. In turn, unity with God leads us to go out to our fellow human
beings; it helps us to make our love for them something which is not
superficial, but rather deep, full, complete; it always includes the readiness to
give one’s life.79

These profound statements help us understand the thinking of Chiara Lubich and her

approach to these dialogues.

Analysis

Upon evaluating their collective words and works, it is quite evident that Pope

John Paul II, Imam W. D. Mohammed, and Chiara Lubich were divinely inspired souls

with hearts full of sacred love for humanity. Each had remarkable experiences, which

embedded tremendous deep seated faith in their souls. Their individual faith journeys

and perspectives provided each with a passion to work towards openness, love, peace,

mutual respect, and appreciation of shared human dignity.

Within their faith communities, they attracted significant followings and

promoted peace and understanding internationally. Their works individually helped

78
Chiara Lubich, "Prayer, Meditation, and Union with God" (address, 3rd Annual Meeting of
Focolare and Muslim Friends of the Focolare, Castel Gandolfo, Vatican City, Rome, October 25, 1999).
79
Ibid.

84
bring people together, both within and outside their individual faith communities.

Each leader demonstrated an active openness to dialogue with those outside of their

faith traditions. Each leader also was committed to promoting common good by

encouraging different faith communities to come to a shared common understanding

without compromising their sacred beliefs and values.

Analysis of the meetings demonstrated the following key areas of focus that

seemed consistently important. First, the statements from each leaders indicates the

importance of establishing a common faith in God, the creator of all. Second, the

statements indicate the importance of having a sacred love for all humanity. Third,

these leaders demonstrated a mutual respect of the sacred traditions of the other faiths.

Fourth, in their speeches and writings, the leaders indicated a high appreciation of the

discipline, character, and moral standards each faith provided to its adherents. The

final point, the leaders also expressed hopefulness that faith communities could work

together for common good, uniting in service for God’s pleasure by serving humanity.

85
 CHAPTER 5

CONCLUSIONS

Findings

In this chapter, the author will present findings based on evaluation and

analysis of the facts using the selected evaluation methodology. Conclusions and

implications will be drawn from the analysis and presented herein.

Thoughts from Members of the Catholic Church

John Borelli’s many writings on the interreligious dialogue between the

Catholic Church and the Muslim American Society indicate that these dialogues

fulfilled many aspects of the Second Vatican Council’s outreach to Non-Christians. 1

From the initial August 1995 meetings of Cardinal Arinze, Archbishop Cardinal

Keeler, Imam Mohammed and his associates, a deep relationship developed between

the two communities that furthered the goals as advocated by the Pontifical Council for

Interreligious Dialogue.2 The meetings also opened up a very fruitful relationship

between Imam Mohammed and Chiara Lubich. 3 This created a wonderful opportunity

for interreligious dialogue and engagement to develop between members of the

Muslim American Society and members of Focolare. 4

1
Borelli, The Catholic Church and Islam.

2
Ibid.
3
Borelli, A Remarkable Coincidence.
4
Ibid.

86
 In addition to developing interreligious relationships between communities,

there were tangible outcomes from the dialogue. 5 Imam Mohammed was honored

with the Annual Luminosa Award for Unity by the Focolare Movement in Mariapolis

on August 17, 1997. Imam Mohammed signed off on the Joint Statement issued by

Catholic Bishops and Muslim Leaders in response to the September 11, 2001, terrorist

attacks. 6

Other significant benefits were the fact that Imam Mohammed met Pope John

Paul II at the Vatican on two occasions in 1996 and 1999. In October of 1999, during

the Interreligious Assembly, Imam Mohammed delivered a prayer on the steps of Saint

Peter’s Square at the Basilica before and audience of tens of thousands. 7 Additionally,

there is a continued positive relationship between the community of Imam W. D.

Mohammed and the Focolare that continues to thrive even after the leaders have

physically departed.

Regarding his sentiments about the encounters, John Borelli indicated that

witnessing Chiara Lubich and Imam Mohammed speak together in Harlem was a

“remarkable coincidence…due to a God-given set of circumstances” in reference to

Baltimore 1995. 8 John Borelli was in attendance when Imam Mohammed again

5
Borelli, The Catholic Church and Islam.

6
Ibid.

7
Ibid.

8
Borelli, A Remarkable Coincidence.

87
traveled to Rome in October 1999 and prayed with Pope John Paul II. He was a

firsthand witness to Imam Mohammed delivering a prayer at the closing ceremony in

Vatican City at the Interreligious Assembly before the Central Committee for the Great

Jubilee of the Year 2000 Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. The theme for

the assembly was Towards A Culture of Dialogue. Remarking on this amazing event,

Dr. John Borelli wrote:

In October 1999, at the interreligious assembly convened in Rome by Cardinal

Arinze as a preparatory event for the celebration of the Great Jubilee Year
2000, Imam Muhammad offered prayers on the steps of St. Peter’s Basilica
during the closing service. I was told that it was the first time that a Muslim
offered a prayer in any formal way in the precincts of St. Peter’s. An American
Muslim prays in a public service at the central spot in the Vatican. I was
pinching myself again. 9

In a conversation preparing this material, John Borelli responded to the

statement that Imam Earl El-Amin and Archbishop of Baltimore William Lori recently

met with Pope Francis in March 2016, by expressing that the impact of these dialogues

are still happening today. He suggested that this visit sends positive assurances that the

seeds planted by this dialogue are continuing which is a good thing.

Thoughts from Members of the Focolare

According to his biography, William Neu has been an active member of the

Focolare for over forty years. He has held various leadership capacities within the U.S.

9
John Borelli, "Past Achievements, Future Prospects: Looking at the history of Catholic-
Muslim dialogue in the U.S. through the eyes of interfaith-relations expert John Borelli," Living City,
July 2007.

88
Focolare communities. Mr. Neu has been responsible for interreligious and

ecumenical dialogue. In a 2012 article that he penned for the Paulist Fathers

newsletter, Koinonia, William Neu recorded his thoughts on the relationship between

Imam W. D. Mohammed and Chiara Lubich.10

William Neu recalled the times he used to run past the well-guarded Chicago

National House of the Nation of Islam’s leader, Elijah Muhammad.11 He also recalled

being surprised that Elijah Muhammad’s son was leading the organization towards

orthodox Sunni Islam after Elijah’s death in 1975. As a Midwest Focolare

representative for ecumenical and interreligious dialogue, he was encouraged to seek

out a notable Chicago imam by both Archbishop of Baltimore, Cardinal William

Keeler and by Natalia Dallapiccola, the Focolare International Director for

Interreligious Dialogue. 12

Upon engaging with Imam W. D. Mohammed, the humble Chicago imam who

was highly recommended, William Neu was surprised that this was the same

internationally renowned leader of the over two million African American Muslims. 13

He was also impressed with how quickly Imam Mohammed embraced sincere dialogue

with the community. William Neu writes of this occasion:

10
William Neu, "W. D. Mohammed and Chiara Lubich: What Friendship Can Do," Koinonia,
Summer 2012.
11
Ibid.
12
Ibid.
13
Ibid.

89
 After reading a biography of the Focolare’s foundress, Chiara Lubich, he
asserted during his second visit that her insights about the unity of the human
family were for everyone, not just for Christians. He stressed his own clear
identity as a practicing Muslim, and asked us to confirm our Catholic identity; I
understood that he was seeking authentic dialogue with faithful, convinced
partners, not confusing syncretism or superficial irenism. 14

Imam Mohammed and his associates visited Castel Gandolfo during his first visit to

the Vatican in 1996. Although he did not meet Chiara Lubich at that time, he relished

the opportunity to invite her to the Masjid Malcolm Shabazz in Harlem, New York.

Bill Neu expressed his thoughts regarding this trust extended by Imam Mohammed:

When I considered afterwards that he was inviting a 77-year-old Catholic

Italian woman whom he had not yet met personally, to speak to 3,000 of his
followers, I realized that Imam Mohammed was a man who sincerely and
faithfully tried to follow God, regardless of the possible human consequences.
It seemed an enormous risk; when Chiara entered that mosque’s prayer room
on May 18, 1997, I asked myself, and even more, I asked God, “How can this
be…?” Dr. Borelli, a rabbi and many Focolare members were among the
audience of 3,000 Muslims. Through a translator and through a public address
system outside the building, Chiara simply shared her experience of radically
living the Gospel in the midst of World War II’s destruction, an experience of
death and resurrection, of God’s intervention, of the hundredfold. It resonated
with this audience beyond anything anticipated. It was a miracle of this charism
from God, and attributable to the purity and openness of these followers of
Imam Mohammed. Afterwards, Chiara and Imam Mohammed sealed a pact to
give their lives for universal brotherhood. (Coincidentally, Imam Mohammed
died 11 years later in 2008, just 6 months after Chiara’s death).15

As mentioned in the previous chapters, there have been many subsequent

encounters between the Muslims of Imam W. D. Mohammed’s community and the

14
Ibid.
15
Ibid.

90
Focolare communities. Bill Neu writes with great excitement about his sentiments

regarding the positive outcomes of this relationship:16

When he personally shared about this developing friendship with the Holy
Father afterwards, the Pope was welcoming and encouraging. This relationship
was also important in the aftermath of 9/11, when we welcomed these brothers
and sisters, and identified with their precarious position in the U.S. in that
moment. I am personally very grateful to have participated in this historical
friendship, evidently a work of God. When Imam Mohammed once asked me
to improvise a few words at a banquet in Washington, DC, I acknowledged
what seemed to reflect God’s unmistakable grace - the good, prayerful,
charitable, intelligent imams associated with him from all over the U.S. Many
of my personal friendships with these imams and members of their
communities, have the same depth and authenticity that I find in my graced
relationships with committed Christians. I am convinced that God has a plan for
this particular people which is sincerely striving to follow him. And in our
common effort to seek and submit to God, to work for the unity of the human
family, we really are brothers and sisters together. In this process, these friends
have acquired a deeper understanding and appreciation of the Catholic Church
as well. In fact, they often encourage their Christian colleagues and neighbors
to get to know their Christian faith better, possibly through the Focolare’s
charism for unity.17

Much has been written and recorded by members of the Focolare regarding their

thoughts and sentiments relating to these dialogues. Most echo William Neu’s

sentiments.

Thoughts from Members of the Muslim American Society

Interviews were conducted with Imam Earl El-Amin, the late Sister Amatullah

Sharif, Dr. Mikal Ramadan, Sister Laila Muhammad, and Imam Ronald Shaheed, five

16
Ibid.
17
Ibid.

91
prominent, well known members of the Muslim American Society. 18 They agreed to

have their interviews recorded and transcribed for research purposes. The interviews

were quite revealing of the tremendous impact of the dialogues. This section of the

chapter provides summaries and selected quotes from members of the Muslim

American Society regarding interreligious dialogue between Catholics and Muslims.

These quotes directly express their intentions, goals, and thoughts relating to

interreligious dialogue as well as how they benefited from the experience.

All of those interviewed were from interfaith families. The majority of those

interviewed had converted to the Islam from Christianity, joining the Honorable Elijah

Muhammad’s Nation of Islam. Laila Mohammed is the granddaughter of the Elijah

Muhammad and daughter of Imam Warith Deen Mohammed. While she was born a

second generation Muslim American, she also had family connections with Christian

relatives. Every interview subject had familiarity with Christians on a personal,

family, social, and professional basis.

Not everyone was excited or eager to participate in the Muslim American

Society’s interfaith dialogue with the Catholic Church and the Focolare. The majority

of the participants expressed verbal or physical apprehension to the dialogues initially.

The interviews revealed that the African American experience with racism,

discrimination and the legacies of slavery had created a deep sense of distrust towards

18
The Muslim American Society was the name of the community association of Muslim
American mosques led by Imam Warith Deen Mohammed at the time of the interfaith dialogues which
are the subject of this research. After a naming dispute with an unrelated non-profit organization of the
same name, Imam Mohammed formally changed the name of the organization to the American Society
of Muslims.

92
Europeans and whites. So despite having a familiarity with Christianity, having a love

and trust in Imam Mohammed’s leadership, and being urged to participate by Imam

Mohammed himself, there were many members of the Muslim American Society who

did not understand the purpose of these dialogues or the relevance to their struggles in

America. Laila Mohammed addressed this specifically:

My father, I should preface it with this, he raised me to be a thinker and to

respectfully question and so I said, "Why you want us to do this with these
Catholics and these white folks?" So that's what I asked him and he [said], "I
just think that we would have a good experience," and he said, "Because of the
love." Then he said publicly, and privately, because of the relationship of
African Americans and Caucasians that we can perhaps heal or do something to
positively affect the process of moving past slavery. It has done that. I can say
for sure for me. There's this young activist and she says that Black folks aren't
prejudiced. Because I always say, "Well yeah I'm prejudiced." But she says that
you have to have a certain setup to be prejudiced. We're just responding to a
condition….In my response to the condition I would tend to be very shy or very
standoffish with Caucasian people. Questioning. My relationship with the
Focolare, especially the Focolare here in Hyde Park in Chicago, where I lived
up until a month ago, I don't feel that way. They have helped me to stop seeing
a color before I see the character. We have become so close, the women at the
Focolare House in Hyde Park, until I have told my children, "If my family or if
we're not around and you need something, go to the Focolare House. That's our
family, too.19

In spite of this initial apprehension by some members, all those I interviewed greatly

valued the experience of traveling to Rome and building meaningful relationships with

Focolare. Dr. Mikal Ramadan expressed his thoughts in this manner:

That [Nation of Islam] had an effect on us, that pushed us forward and also did
a little brain damaging. Imam Mohammed corrected that. He said, you are a
part of the human family. The family of Adam. Your faith is Al Islam. He just
taught us the religion of Al Islam. This, the Focolare, brought it all the way
back around. You had to put down all of that, "Black man is God", which you

19
"Edited Interview with Sister Laila Mohammed," interview by author, September 2, 2016.

93
 put down already but it swept out what might have been retained in the heart. It
swept it out, swept it out. Brought it around full circle. 20

It's all been a great blessing for Allah. I thank Allah because I feel like I lived a
dream. I don't know in terms of anything else professional I would want to do,
this is it. Practicing medicine. In terms of the time period and living a time
frame in human history, having lived right at the time that I lived, coming from
Christianity to the Nation of Islam to Imam Mohammed to the relationship with
the Focolare, seeing all of that and having been - thank Allah - expanded. Each
time Christianity, I was expanded, Nation of Islam expanded me, Imam
[Mohammed] just took it to another level. And Imam saw how this would
expand us, too. To come through all of this and to come back with a different
view of Christianity in awe, after every coming out of it. The feeling of it that
we had from the Nation of Islam, having come through this, this just put the
cherry on top.21

Of the five members the author interviewed, two of those interviewed were

with Imam Mohammed at these dialogues. The others got involved with the dialogues

at a later date. Their previous interfaith experiences and comfort with Christians

contributed to and translated into a general sense of comfort with the dialogues.

Amatullah Sharif worked as a secretary for both the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and

Imam Warith Deen Mohammed. She expressed her thoughts on the dialogues as

follows:

[Pope] John Paul II was totally historic, he was like the son of the honorable
Elijah Mohammed had the opportunity to meet with the Pope of the Catholic
[Church]. It was historic to show the levels that we've come from and how
Imam Mohammed his, this is my opinion, but how his understanding of the
religion and the [Qur’an] and his performances and him as a leader went from
there all the way up to here. Went from his, Martin Luther said, a mountain top
and it was such an honor that he was most humble and to be there and so for
that and it dignified our community, it dignified us….Well again to align
ourselves with like-minded people. He had a respect for the Pope. That Pope

20
"Edited Interview with Dr. Mikal Ramadan," interview by author, September 2, 2016.
21
Ibid.

94
 and this Pope, they're a little different than the others. They were reaching out
to the Muslims, they reached out to us to try to better understand about us and
not just to tolerate us, you know. And but to better understand and see the
similarities, with us and the Christianity part, and this Pope was very
progressive. I mean he went everywhere, he was very progressive. I can't really
say what Imam's intentions were. I don't know but I know it was all good, for
the better, for us and again it dignified our community. And it showed our
interfaith responsibility and just like the Qur’an says if Allah wanted all of us to
be one thing but he made it so we wouldn't hate one another but that so that we
would learn about one another.22

When asked if the dialogues were beneficial, Sister Amatullah Sharif said:

I do [think so]. Because today the dialogues continue. The association with the
Focolare continues. It may not be all over the place, but there are groups of
people in the community who continue to uphold the legacy that we have with
them. And these people are sincere. It was so interesting. We never felt like we
were being proselytized and we never proselytized them. But when you get
their literature you'll see they always have something in there about Islam or
Imam Mohammed and you can feel from the heart that they were sincere. So
and here again, as he's told us before, it doesn't take like a whole crew of
people, you just have those sincere folks that keep the hope alive so to speak.
And I think eventually, while I may not see it in my time, but I think that young
adults and young people coming up, I think they want to continue the legacies
and it's there, the seeds are there, always there. Yeah. It's a good thing, it was a
good thing… On a scale of ten I'd rate it’s a 15. It's historical. We've done so
many firsts. You know Imam giving invocation for the senate was a first. The
Vatican was the first, you know it's just so many things…There were so many
things pioneering.23

Twenty years after the 1996 introduction to Pope John Paul II at the Vatican by

Archbishop of Baltimore Cardinal William Keeler as part of the delegation of Imam

W. D. Mohammed, Imam Earl El-Amin was introduced to Pope Francis by Archbishop

22 "Edited Interview with Sister Amatullah Sharif," interview by author, September 1, 2016.
23
Ibid.

95
of Baltimore William Lori in March 2016.24 Imam Earl El-Amin noted “that was one

of the historical highpoints of our community, as well as the international Muslim

community. Spending a whole week meeting with leaders of the Vatican and Focolare

allowed us to establish and maintain those relationships today.” 25 Reflecting on his

experiences, Imam Earl El-Amin stated:

And the irony is I stood on the steps of Saint Peter’s in March of this year.
Twenty years ago, I was here with Imam Muhammad was part of the initial
delegation. And 20 years later, 20 years later, I'm back with the interfaith
delegation. So that speaks volumes to me about his vision. About Imam W. D.
Mohammed… To meet two different Popes in my lifetime is unbelievable. Not
me, I'm talking about the work that Allah blessed us to be able to do with the
vision this man had. Most people don't even get it, even in our community. So I
think a lot, and when I have the opportunity to answer question sometimes you
think, "That's enough for tonight" I can ask him thousands of questions about
things, because we wanted to know. And his vision, his vision in my heart and
my mind is pristine. I know what his vision is. I know what his vision is. I
know what he wanted, because I had numerous conversations with him about
it.26

When asked why Imam Mohammed pursued these dialogues when he did, Imam Earl

El-Amin expounded, “I think Imam Mohammad pursued these dialogues solely based

on understanding the mind and traditions of Muhammad the Prophet in our time, space,

reality here in America.” 27

24
Earl S. El-Amin, "Engagement for the Common Good, Healing a Fragmented City: Faith
Leaders Work to Improve Human Life in City of Baltimore," Muslim Journal 41, no. 26 (March 18,
2016): , doi:www.MulsimJournal.net.

25
Ibid.

26
"Edited Interview with Imam Earl El-Amin," interview by author, September 18, 2016.

27
Ibid.

96
 Imam Ronald Shaheed traveled with Imam Mohammed to all of the events in

Rome and has been a prominent figure in these dialogues. 28 He shared his profound

insights and thoughts about the dialogues. Imam Ronald Shaheed was tremendously

honored and appreciative of his experience. He was sensitive to the fact that many

common religious followers are never presented with opportunities to experience all of

the world coming together in unity and peace. He appealed to the audience of world

religious leaders to rely the powerful impact of the message to their followers in a brief

address during his participation in the Friends of Focolare event hosted during the

Interreligious Jubilee in October 1999. 29

On the historic significance of descendants of enslaved Africans in America

having an audience with the Pope, Imam Shaheed expressed:

So it's five Imam's and Imam Mohammed. That makes six. As I was walking up
a hill, when the Pope has his Wednesday audience it's packed. People come
from all over the world and that's every Wednesday and it was packed. Here's
these six black men walking up going to have a seat on the same level as the
Pope up there where he has his canopy. I said to myself, I said, "You know
what, it's my understanding that at least one pope blessed the ship that was
coming to take our ancestors to become slaves in the Americas. Now here is
six, representing freedom, black men, descendants of those slaves, walking up
the hill to be in dialogue with the leader of the Catholic Church. That wasn't
lost to me is what I'm saying. It was a profound experience to me. What really
brought it home to me was I looked at the people as we were coming up the hill
and I saw the love and respect on their face. I saw some people were crying. I
still remember that. They were crying tears and I don't know what they knew
because I didn't get a chance to talk to them but you can tell when people either
appreciate something you're doing or not. I saw appreciation on these people's
faces and like I said some of them were crying. I think that it was a kind of a

28
"Edited Interview with Imam Ronald Shaheed," interview by author, September 3, 2016.

29
Ibid.

97
 closure thing. Imam maybe uses, talk about the freedom movement and how it's
continuing. Frederick Douglas, Harriet Tubman, Denmark Vesey, Nat Turner,
Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglas, all of them represented
contributions to the freedom movement and he connected Elijah Muhammad
and himself in that freedom movement. For us to be in Rome with the leader of
the Catholic Church and to get that kind of reception, talking about our leader,
it was kind of a closure thing. I thought about it. I think it informs my thinking
in my relationship because you know, Imam said that we live in a Christian
country right? Now wouldn't it make sense for us to have good relationships
with our Christian neighbors? Don't events like that help us have that?30

Remarking on what he reasoned Imam Mohammed’s hopes were for the dialogue with

Pope John Paul II, he shared, “He wanted a picture. He wanted a picture to be

presented to the world of him embracing Pope John Paul and the Catholics. He wanted

that picture to go around the world. He knew that if he did that, the Pope being the

leader of the Catholic world, it would make its rounds in the Catholic circle but it

would also make its rounds outside. Let it be known that Christians are not

automatically our enemies.” 31

Regarding the relationship with the Focolare, Imam Ronald Shaheed posited:

I believe is going to unfold and people in the future are going to be writing and
talking about these occurrences and their value for where human society has
advanced. Chiara Lubich was a white woman leading a group of white women
in the Catholic Church. That movement ended up to be not just women, but
men too and got all races across the world involved in. She joined hands with
W. Deen Mohammed who led a group that used to be blackness and they say
all white people was devils. Right? Now W. Deen Mohammed and Chiara
Lubich are gracing as a picture of how men and women could respect each
other, how different races could respect and how different nationalities, all of
that. 32
30
Ibid.

31
"Edited Interview with Imam Ronald Shaheed," interview by author, September 3, 2016.

32
Ibid.

98
Imam Shaheed also related a private conversation where he sought deeper

understanding about Imam Mohammed’s relationship with Chiara Lubich.

I just said Imam, give me your commentary on Chiara Lubich and he said, "She
is an inspired woman. I believe she is inspired and I believe that God has lifted
her above all women on earth." That's what he said about her. Like I said this
was a private conversation. There was nobody else in the conversation. He saw
her as a genuine article. We went on trips in her town where she lived in and
everything and you can tell by, especially the women, the men too, but more
importantly the women. When you interact with them, they channel Chiara
Lubich, no doubt about it. I don't think they were even aware of it as much but
the way that God blessed them and teach them to grasp a certain character and
disposition as a believer you should see it, it's something special.33

More details were shared in the course of the interviews which have been edited and

transcribed in the appendix. What is evident is that these dialogues greatly positively

impacted members of the Muslim American Society who participated.

While Imam Izak-El Pasha of Harlem’s Malcolm Shabazz Masjid was

unavailable to be interviewed for this thesis research, an interview in Living City

magazine captured his ideas relating to the meeting between Imam Warith Deen

Mohammed and Chiara Lubich at his mosque in May 1997. He described the meeting

as one of global impact based on the international impact of the two noble leaders of

the Word of God.34 He stated the historical significance of the mosque and the role it

has played in the “history of Al-Islam and the revival of the African American people

in the U.S., bringing them to the doorway of understanding of Al-Islam from W. D.

33
Ibid.

34
Emilie Christy, "A Meeting of Global Impact: Imam Izak-El Pasha of Harlem's Malcolm
Shabazz Mosque," Living City, May 2012.

99
Fard, to his mother and father (Sister Clara Muhammad, the Honorable Elijah

Muhammad) and to himself, Imam W. D. Mohammed.” Speaking of the pact between

Chiara Lubich and Imam Mohammed, Imam Pasha stated:

The pact made between Imam W. D. Mohammed and Chiara Lubich is not a
local matter; it’s a matter of international influence…The light of their work
will continue to produce in my opinion good and nothing but good. Whether
those who follow them hold on to their light or not, their work was given to
them by the inspiration that God gives. The light of that work, I don’t believe
can be put out, and their pact will continue to impact upon people’s lives.
Whoever reads about them, whoever studies and looks at their life
achievements, in my opinion they will be inspired to share the genuine love that
these two persons left for humanity to build upon. We believe that God has
given them the Paradise for their works. May God’s peace be upon them and
upon us.35

Imam Mikal Saahir of the Nur-Allah Islamic Center in Indianapolis was also

unavailable to be interviewed for this thesis research. However, his article in the

Focolare publication Living City magazine captured his ideas relating to the meeting

between Imam Warith Deen Mohammed and Chiara Lubich and the relationship

between the communities. He expressed how he grew to deeply appreciate her

teachings:

This Art of Loving as expressed by Chiara, was to be practiced and given

generously:
To be the first to love,
To love everyone
To love concretely, and
To make yourself one with the other in their joys and sufferings.36

35
Ibid.

36
Mikal Saahir, "Living Generously," Living City, July 2007.

100
Imam Mikal Saahir’s article expresses similar sentiments to those I interviewed. He

wrote:

I must admit when I first experienced this, I did not fully understand what
Imam Mohammed and Chiara were preparing their Muslim and Christian
communities to achieve. After 9/11, it has become more and more apparent
that their vision and our relationship can be a model for others wanting to
follow the same path. Having experienced Chiara’s message has helped me, a
Muslim-American living in a post 9/11 world, to continue living generously,
and, yes loving generously. 37

From the feedback given in the interviews, it’s also evident that the dialogues

accomplished the faith leaders’ goals. Firstly, the statements from each of the

interviewees indicates the importance of establishing a common faith in God, the

creator of all was communicated. Secondly, the statements from each of the

interviewees indicates the importance of having a sacred love for all humanity was

definitely conveyed. Thirdly, statements from each of the interviewees indicates that a

mutual respect of the sacred traditions of the other faiths was clearly demonstrated.

Fourthly, statements from some of the interviewees indicated a high appreciation of the

discipline, character, and moral standards each faith provided to its adherents. Finally,

the interviewees also expressed hopefulness that faith communities could work

together for common good, uniting in service for God’s pleasure by serving humanity.

In fact, the connections that were established went far beyond any formal

dialogue experience. Genuine relationships between faith communities were

established which fully exhibited friendships of mutual respect, concern, fellowship,

37
Ibid.

101
and love. Imam Mohammed’s daughter, Laila Mohammed, was so impacted by her

experience with the Focolare that she named her daughter Chiara.38

38
"Edited Interview with Sister Laila Mohammed."

102
 Future Implications

This study provides an extensive literature review from primary sources on the

interfaith dialogue between the members of the Muslim American Society,

representatives of the Catholic Church, and especially with Focolare. Additionally,

five guided research interviews were conducted with members of the former Muslim

American Society, providing original research. While two of these interview subjects,

Imam Earl El-Amin and Imam Ronald Shaheed, figured quite prominently in the

original dialogues. The three other interview subjects were significant participants in

later dialogues spawned by these initial meetings. The current research presented

insights into the impact and effectiveness of the interfaith dialogues from the

indigenous Muslim American community. Very little information from this

perspective had been published on this subject matter.

Further research could greatly expound on the number of research participants

from the Muslim American Society. On certain trips to Rome, there were over 200

member delegations present during these various dialogues. Additionally, other key

voices of the Muslim American Society, such as Imam Plemon El-Amin, Imam A.K.

Hassan, and Imam Ezekiel Pasha, were not interviewed during this phase of research.

Further research could include these voices and others.

Additionally, the focus of this thesis was particularly on the perspective of

indigenous Muslim Americans of the former Muslim American Society. Further

research could include specific interviews with members of the Vatican, National

Council of Catholic Bishops, and members of the Focolare. There were hundreds if

103
not thousands of members that were directly involved or apart of the various occasions

of these meetings. Doing guided interviews with many of these persons would provide

an even more complete qualitative viewpoint on the impact and effectiveness of these

interfaith meetings.

Finally, future inquiries could expand beyond the participants in these interfaith

meetings to include Catholics, Muslims, Christians, Jews, and others that witnessed

these meetings from afar. The scope of this academic inquiry could be broadened to

include lay people as well as those outside of the world of faith. A research project of

that breadth could qualitatively measure what type of impact or effectiveness these

dialogues had beyond the meetings themselves. Subsequent research would build

significantly on the findings of this study and provide a fuller picture of the impact and

effectiveness of the interfaith dialogues between the Catholic Church, Muslim

American Society, and the Focolare.

104
 ILLUSTRATIONS

Illustration 1. Nation of Islam Booklet Accomplishments of The Muslims circa 1970s.

105
Illustration 2. Nation of Islam Malcolm and Wallace, Muhammad Ali circa 1960s.

Illustration 3. Nation of Islam The Muslim Program circa 1960s.

106
Illustration 4. Nation of Islam The Teachings of W.D. Muhammad 1976.

107
Illustration 5. New Nation of Islam Community Flag 1976.

108
Illustration 6. Teachings of W. D. Muhammad, 1976

109
Illustration 7. Teachings of W. D. Muhammad, 1976.

110
Illustration 8. Nation of Islam The Early Years Photo Collage.

111
Illustration 9. Bilalian News Cover with President Carter, 1977.

Illustration 10. Carrying the American Flag, 1977.

112
Illustration 11. Imam Mohammed with President Nelson Mandela

113
Illustration 12. Imam Mohammed with Pope John Paul II. October 1999

114
Illustration 13. Imam Mohammed with Chiara Lubich.

Illustration 14. Imam Mohammed with Chiara Lubich on May 18, 1997 at Masjid
Malcolm Shabazz. Harlem, New York.

115
Illustration 15. Muslim Journal Covers highlighting the Muslim American Society
relationship with the Focolare Movement and the Catholic Church. Circa 2000s.

Illustration 16. Muslim Journal Article Highlighting Imam Earl El-Amin meeting Pope
Francis. March 18, 2016.

116
Illustration 17. Muslim Journal Covers Highlighting Interfaith Dialogue led by
members of the Muslim American Society. Circa 2000s.

117
 APPENDIX 1

MALS THESIS QUESTIONS

CONSENT TO INTERVIEW:
1. Do you consent to this interview being recorded? Do you consent to being
identified by first name and location of residence? If not, would you prefer to
be identified anonymously?

DEMOGRAPHIC QUESTIONS:
1. What is your name?
2. Where do your reside?
3. What year were you born/ what is your age?
4. What is your gender?
5. How old are you when you became Muslim/Catholic? When you joined this
community(Imam Mohammed’s community/Focolare Community/Catholic
Community? When you accepted the leadership of IWDM/Chiara Lubich?
How long have you considered yourself a member of the community?
6. Do you consider yourself a pioneer? Are you considered a pioneer?
7. Do you consider yourself a legacy member of the community? Does your
family have a history of involvement in the community?

BACKGROUND QUESTIONS ON INTERFAITH:

1. How do you feel about interfaith relationships between Muslims and
Christians?
2. What is your experience with interfaith relationships between Muslims and
other faiths? With Catholics in particular? Is it just within your non-
Muslim/non-Catholic family?
3. Have you ever been a part of a Muslim community interfaith event or program?
4. How did you feel about this event? Was it what you expected?
5. How did it compare to other religious events you have experienced? How was
it similar? How was it different?
6. Have you ever been a part of a Non-Muslim community interfaith event or
program? With Catholics/Non-Catholics?
7. How did you feel about this event? Was it what you expected?
8. How did it compare to other religious events you have experienced? How was
it similar? How was it different?
9. What is the value of interfaith experiences between Muslims and Christians to
you?

118
HISTORIC EVENTS

Imam Mohammed in went to Rome and met with the Pope John Paul II at the Vatican
in October 1996. There were a series of meetings that preceded this first trip between
Imam Earl El-Amin, Imam Eric El-Amin, and Imam Earl Abdul Malik Mohammed with
members of the Vatican. Imam Mohammed initially met with Cardinal Arinze in
Baltimore in 1995 at a program on inter religious dialogue between Muslims and
Catholics. Imam Mohammed met afterward with Cardinal Keeler who served as
Archbishop of Baltimore at that time.

In Rome, Imam Mohammed and his delegation met with several Catholic communities.
The community which Imam Mohammed developed an ongoing relationship was the
Focolare. Imam Mohammed developed a deep and respectful friendship with Chiara
Lubich, leader of the Focolare movement.

In 1997, Chiara Lubich of the Focolare Movement spoke with the aid of an Italian
translator at the Malcolm Shabazz Masjid in Harlem, New York with Imam W. D.
Mohammed. Imam Izak-El Pasha moderated.

Imam Mohammed again traveled to Rome in October 1999 and again visited with
Pope John Paul II. Imam Mohammed delivered a testimony and prayer at the closing
ceremony in Vatican City at the Interreligious Assembly before the Central Committee
for the Great Jubilee of the Year 2000 Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue.
The theme was Towards A Culture of Dialogue.

Remarking on this amazing event, Dr. John Borelli writes, “In October 1999, at the
interreligious assembly convened in Rome by Cardinal Arinze as a preparatory event
for the celebration of the Great Jubilee Year 2000, Imam Muhammad offered prayers
on the steps of St. Peter’s Basilica during the closing service. I was told that it was the
first time that a Muslim offered a prayer in any formal way in the precincts of St.
Peter’s. An American Muslim prays in a public service at the central spot in the
Vatican. I was pinching myself again.”

PRIMARY QUESTIONS:
10. Did you travel as part of Imam Mohammed’s delegation to either of these trips
to Rome?/Were you part of the team hosting his delegation? Which one? If
not, did you know someone who did attend? Were you in attendance at
Malcolm Shabazz Masjid in Harlem New York?
11. How did you feel about your experience?
1. is it what you expected?
2. how does it compare with other religious places you have visited?
12. What difference has this experience made in your life?
1. What does this experience mean to you?

119
 2. What is the value of this experience to you?
13. What did you learn about interfaith relationships from this experience?
14. Has what you experienced impacted how you see religion? current events,
politics, equality, freedom, or moral values in society?
1. Has your viewpoint been broadened or narrowed? Please describe.
2. Have you changed your ideas or thinking since having this experience?
15. Are there any insights you have as to why Imam Mohammed pursued this
dialogue?
16. What do you think his intentions were?
17. What do you think Imam Mohammed/Chiara Lubich/Pope John Paul II hoped
would result from these dialogues?.
18. What did Imam Mohammed’s meeting at the Vatican with Pope John Paul II
mean to you?
19. What did Imam Mohammed’s meeting with Chiara Lubich of the Focolare
movement mean to you?
20. In your opinion, were these dialogues successful? Why? Why not?
21. In your opinion, were these dialogues effective? Why? Why not?
22. Was this experience beneficial to you? To our communities?
1. Would you describe this experience as a benefit or waste of time?
2. How would you quantify or qualify the benefits that resulted from these
dialogues?
3. How do you feel about this experience? How do you rate this experience
on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the most meaningful and 1 being the least
meaningful?
23. Did you learn anything else from this experience?
24. Is there anything else you would like to share or comment?

120
 APPENDIX 2

Edited Interview Transcript of Sister Amatullah Sharif

September 1, 2016

Location: Assisted Living Facility south of Chicago, IL

Author/Transcription Note: The notation “inaudible” simply means that a sound

obscured what word or phrase was exactly stated in the audio recording.

T. Najee-ullah: As-Salaam ‘Alaikum

A. Sharif: ‘Alaikum As-Salaam

T. Najee-ullah: Do you consent to this interview being recorded?

A. Sharif: Yeah.

T. Najee-ullah: Do you consent to be identified by your first name and location of residence?

A. Sharif: Yeah.

T. Najee-ullah: Or do you- how do you want to be identified?

A. Sharif: Yeah I'm Amatullah Sharif.

T. Najee-ullah: Okay. So I'm going to ask you some- so I'm going to set this here. I'm going to
ask you some basic demographic questions. This is just to identify you for the
recording and so that when it's transcribed everything, each interview will be
categorized appropriately. What is your name?

A. Sharif: Amatullah Sharif.

T. Najee-ullah: Where do you reside?

A. Sharif: Markham Illinois.

T. Najee-ullah: And you can answer this either way, you don't have to give exact- either what
year are you born and what is your age?

A. Sharif: 1946, 69 years old.

T. Najee-ullah: Okay so now I'm going to ask you some community questions just trying to
get into kind of- for the record. At what age did you become Muslim?

121
A. Sharif: In my early 20s, a young adult I became Muslim. I got out of college, went to
New York and I started reading a lot of black literature, slave literature, and
contemporary stuff. And the more I read, the more I was becoming conscious,
conscious of African American plight. And that led me up to find out about
Islam.

T. Najee-ullah: So when you joined this community, you joined with the Honorable Elijah
Muhammad?

A. Sharif: Yes. I was ... I've ran into a- Okay. I had met- in my black consciousness I
went to the bookstore, Books-n-Things in New York in Manhattan and I ran
into- today he's the assistant to Minister Farrakhan who was kind of a
spokesman for him.

T. Najee-ullah: Akbar Mohammed?

A. Sharif: Akbar Mohammed was the one who fished me. I was his fish, so to speak.
They picked me up. I went down to the Books-n-Things, they picked me up
from there and took me to Queen's New York and there- this was a nation of
Islam. There I heard a young minister speak and I guess because I had been
reading books and stuff and slavery, he mentioned how we were treated during
that time and there was like an epiphany, and I said oh this is the place. But
because prior to that they had told me all of the things that the Muslims were
doing, because I was kind of frustrated with America and I was about try to
find a way to go to Africa because I couldn't take that we weren't doing
anything per se.

But when I spoke to them they told me about the schools, the stores,
restaurants, everything they had I really didn't know. And so I was excited
about that. So I immediately signed up to get my x, so I did all of the
preparations in New York I was staying in Bronx at the time with friends. And
so but then I thought I'd rather complete it in my hometown DC, so I came
back to Washington and kept having to write the letters until one of them
worked and April the 11th, 1970, I got my X. And I did it from Washington
DC from Dr. Lonnie Shabazz at that time.

The minute I got my X there, I hit the ground running because I was so excited
about Islam. I wanted to work and help and do whatever I could. And I did.
And you want more?

T. Najee-ullah: Could you describe when you accepted the leadership of Imam Mohammed.

A. Sharif: Huh?

T. Najee-ullah: Could you describe when you accepted the leadership of Imam Mohammed?

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A. Sharif: Oh well all of that was natural progressions. Because what happened was after
working in DC in the community doing a number of things and served as an
MGT secretary. Then I also served as assistant secretary for University of
Islam and eventually I got invited to come to Chicago to work for the
Honorable Elijah Muhammad as a secretary. I went there that Friday and he
asked if I could come back that Monday to work. So I had to come back to DC
and clear up everything to get back to Illinois. So I stayed working under the
leadership of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad until when he passed. When he
passed I was asked to be a secretary for Imam W.D. Mohammed. So it was a
segue, so to speak. And so I worked as secretary there for him until I came
back to DC, my father was ill, so I came back to DC and that was like in 1970,
1977. And got married, had kids and all like that.

Then Imam needed- Imam it was a [inaudible 00:07:54] we had a [inaudible

00:07:57] Mohammed. And Imam was doing the Eid al-Adha in Philadelphia,
so me and some sisters we drove to Philly. When we got there, then I had a
meeting with Imam and during the conversation and meeting and all he was
saying he needed somebody in Illinois secretary and somebody. Things
weren't going the way he wanted and invited me to come back there and so I
said okay, went back to DC, but I waited until my kids finished that school
session and then he relocated me from DC to- oh, that's so- he relocated me
from DC to Illinois but that was a ladder.

The work that I did for Imam Mohammed, most all of it I did from
Washington DC. So I was excited to be able to get Imam- I did public relations
for him basically. So I would, different things would occur and I'd ask if he
would like that or whatever, radio, television, different things. And he agreed
and I even wrote a book, I did a book for him. So it was just- when you knew
you had a leader like him in Islam, you- I just had the desire to make sure he
got exposed, as well as Dawah getting Islam all around in the DC area.
Because he always liked to come to DC. He wasn't always invited but I would
find venues, different venues to have him there. So it all really started back in
the 80s, the different things I did, developed pamphlets for him and I think we
probably distributed about two million or more around- mm-hmm
(affirmative).

I think I developed about 45 pamphlets, and that started the pamphlets. Is it- I
don't know what you want, but this is a long history of stuff. You can take
whatever you want but.

T. Najee-ullah: I just want to get to- right now I'm just getting background-

A. Sharif: Yeah that's what I thought.

T. Najee-ullah: Let me check the recording just for a second to make sure it's set up. Okay it's
working fine. So.

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A. Sharif: I should be recording this for me.

T. Najee-ullah: Oh I can give you a copy.

A. Sharif: Huh?

T. Najee-ullah: I can give you a copy.

A. Sharif: Oh, okay, all right. It's just that- yeah because I can't transcribe I appreciate it.

T. Najee-ullah: Yes ma'am. These are not necessarily long questions [inaudible 00:11:49]. Do
you consider yourself a community pioneer? Or are you considered a pioneer?

A. Sharif: Well they here consider me a pioneer, yeah. I would say yes. And that was
another thing about people born in the community and been around for a lot.
I'd consider some of those- and especially if they are community activists.
Yeah. But yeah I would consider it to- because believe me, we pioneered stuff
that had never- we'd been the first to so many things that had never been done
before. And it's only because the grace of Allah would give you these ideas
and the guidance of Allah. We've pioneered, you know there's no book or
manual for the things we've done. But has lasted for a while. We pioneered a
lot of them. So I would call it that.

T. Najee-ullah: This is the last of the background questions and I'm going to start to my topic
and then I'm going to get specific about the topic. The last background
question is- so do you consider yourself a legacy member of the community or
does your family have a history of involvement in the community? Were you
the first in your family to embrace Islam?

A. Sharif: Do they have a legacy because it-

T. Najee-ullah: So this question is asking- were you the first in your family to embrace Islam
or did you have other members of your family that embraced it as well?

A. Sharif: I'm the first and only member of my immediate family. No one else ever took
it. My children are Muslims. They- myself and my children, I had three kids.
We are Muslims in the family. If I had somebody I don't know who they are.
But I had kind of a big family. But everyone else are Christians.

T. Najee-ullah: So then this is the next question I'm going to ask you about interfaith. So you
can look at this either as your experience as a Muslim in your family and your
other [inaudible 00:15:12]. How do you feel about interfaith relationships
between Muslims and Christians?

A. Sharif: I think it's great. It's a wonderful thing. I have in my family Christians, Baptist
Christians. I have Jehovah Witness, I have probably Catholics. I have

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 members from every- I had some Apostolic- every, you know, not every but
quite a few different backgrounds of Christianity. And we come together,
banquets, programs, birthdays, whatever, and we socialize fellowship. We do
not discuss religion per se because they're not that keen on me being Muslim,
because then the only reason I think is because their concept of what we think
about Jesus- we don't actually see Jesus as God. Some of them do. So we don't
go near that per se. What I find disappointing is that because you have a
Muslim in the midst, why not ask them questions that you want to know. But
they don't. So- you stop that.

T. Najee-ullah: So we were talking about asking some background questions on interfaith?

A. Sharif: Oh yeah. I was saying that interfaith is good but my people, they're not into
interfaith like we are. Yeah.

T. Najee-ullah: So I asked some background questions on interfaith. I'm gonna ask a few of
these and let you answer…then I'm going to get to the part about Imam
Mohammed and go back and forth a lot. I'm just trying to ask these questions
to everybody.

A. Sharif: Well to summarize basically interfaith, I has an interfaith family per se. And
it's mostly good in terms of being together and we have a family message on
here. We have a family message on the line so when birthdays come or
something comes up, you know, breaking news, and then everybody would
chime in with- so that's a good thing. But they visited, I've had them to visit
with me- my mom, my mom visited me up here. Different programs we've had
that family has visited with me have come and attended. So that's about the
extent of interfaith.

T. Najee-ullah: So if we look out at interfaith relationships between Muslims and other faiths
that's not your immediate family or a non-Muslim family. Have you ever been
a part of a [inaudible 00:24:59] community interfaith and leader program?

A. Sharif: Extremely.

T. Najee-ullah: Yeah. How do you feel about being a part of those events?

A. Sharif: I feel honored to be a part of the events. I have been at the Washington
Cathedral- it's a Islamic- where they have Muslim, Christian, Jews, different
faiths give excerpts from the Quran, the Bible, whatever. We've had where
dignitaries from the White House and all like that were there. It was for a
reason, I can't remember that one. And my daughter has been very big in
interfaith. As a teenager she- there's one group in DC that had her represent
Islam. The Children's Defense Fund has us- we were when they had a huge
program on the Washington Monument, my family we were on the stage
representing Islam. There's been so many opportunities. We've been into

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 Jewish synagogue, we've been with Imam Mohammed when he's been
interfaith programs and it all serves. And then of course the Focolare, we love
them. We went to Italy. Myself-

T. Najee-ullah: I'm going to ask about Italy in a second, just talking about Italy. This is just in
general. Were these interfaith events what you expected and how did they
compare to other religious events you have experienced? Was it similar or
different?

A. Sharif: I would say they were- the interfaith were different. We all came from there
knowing more about one another, respecting each other. It's been so many that
we've had and they're all basically the same. The one I would say the most-
respected one would be the Focolare. Because they always have follow up. A
lot of the others they didn't really have a lot of follow up. Focolare had follow
up. And they continue to this day, they follow up. They visited me and I get
their literature and they're always inviting us to their programs.

T. Najee-ullah: Okay.

A. Sharif: And they come to ours, with our conventions, they speak at our conventions.

T. Najee-ullah: Thank you. You've kind of answered the other questions. It's just, you know a
lot of these you try to find out what someone thinks you ask similar questions
just to see how the person responds. Oh it wasn't that, I wasn't asking what is
the value of interfaith experience between Muslim and Christians you
answered that. So for the focus of my studies, I'm dealing with the following
historic events. So Imam Mohammed went to Rome and met with Pope John
Paul II at the Vatican in October of 1996. This was after a series of meetings
that happened between Imam [inaudible 00:29:14] Imam [inaudible 00:29:14]
and Imam [inaudible 00:29:17], members of the Vatican and the United States.

A. Sharif: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

T. Najee-ullah: Imam Mohammed initially met with Cardinal Arinze in Baltimore in 1995 at a
program on interfaith dialogue between Muslims and Catholics. Imam
Mohammed afterward met with Cardinal Keeler who served as the archbishop
of Baltimore at that time. In Rome, Imam Mohammed and his delegation met
with several Catholic communities. The community which Imam Mohammed
developed an ongoing relationship was the Focolare. Imam Mohammed built a
deep and respectful friendship with Chiara Lubich the leader of the Focolare
whom, in 1997, Chiara Lubich of the Focolare spoke with the aid of an Italian
translator at [inaudible 00:29:57] in New York with Imam W.D. Mohammed
and that Ezekiel Pasha moderated. Imam Mohammed again traveled to Rome
in October 1999 and again visited with Pope John Paul II, the Imam
Mohammed delivered testimony and prayer at the closing ceremony back in

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 the city at the interreligious assembly before the Central Committee for the
Black Jubilee of the year 2000, particular council for interreligious dialogue.

A. Sharif: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

T. Najee-ullah: The theme was Towards a Culture of Dialogue, remarking on this amazing
event Dr. John Borelli, my advisor, writes, "in October 1999 at the
interreligious assembly convened in Rome by Cardinal Arinze as a proprietary
event for the celebration of the great jubilee of the year 2000, Imam
Mohammed offered prayers on the steps of St. Peter's Basilica during the
closing service. I was told it was the first time that a Muslim offered a prayer
in any formal way in the precincts of St. Peters. An American Muslim prays in
public service at the central spot in the Vatican. I was pinching myself again."

A. Sharif: I wouldn't say on the steps. It was- where I'd say steps, steps means steps. But
he was in the back on the interior of it where the Pope was. Pope was not on
the steps. So I would not say on the steps. Because people might really
perceive him there on the steps. And there were a lot of steps. He gave the
invocation in the Vatican, I would say, in the Vatican, to over a hundred
thousand people I think it was. And that's good, that's accurate.

T. Najee-ullah: So these are questions about these events and so did you travel as part of Imam
Mohammed's delegation to these trips in Rome?

A. Sharif: That one. I basically- yeah we had to take care of the kids, well I had to take
care of the kids. I didn't get to that one but I got to one later, a delegation we
went to Italy. And Imam was supposed to go on that one but he wasn't able to
go and he drafted a letter for Chiara Lubich and gave it to me to give to
her…and then then they translated it in Italian.

T. Najee-ullah: Okay. Were you in attendance at the Malcolm Shabazz?

A. Sharif: No I didn't get there either.

T. Najee-ullah: Okay. But you were very much aware of the experience.

A. Sharif: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I was very much aware. It was- the Imam was elated. His
association with Chiara Lubich was admirable and well accepted and they had
a meeting of the mind, a kindred of spirit and he respected her so much as did
she of him. And she drafted a letter and sent it back and her letter was- it was
incredible, because the way she formed it, she formed it their friendship and
allegiance and she used…I was like wow, you know. I was glad to see that and
knowing that when she passed, she seemed to have had an understanding of
Islam. Glad to see that. But it was a good thing, the major thing that I think
Imam Mohammed wanted for us to get from the allegiance with the Focolare

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 Chiara Lubich, that movement, was that we should love one another, almost
unconditionally.

Because what I learned from them, how their love for Jesus and his teachings
was so strong and it was about love and so no matter what, no matter how you
loved one another, each other, and I could see it when I was there. I could see
exactly what that meant. And I started putting it in practice because in our
community or anywhere we had personality issues. This person don't like you
and this one this and that and like that kind of thing. Or somebody does
something to you and you're like I'm not speaking to them and all that kind of
stuff.

And I remember when we got on the plane coming back, there was a sister
who I wasn't speaking to too much because she wasn't speaking to me. But
coming back on that plane, she sat across from me and I initiated a
conversation with her and then I asked her to accept my apology if I had
treated her any kind [inaudible 00:36:51]. And she said you know I was just
about to say that to you. That's how strong their actions weighed on us. And
then we became friends again so much for that because what I had learned
from the Focolare I put it into practice right then and there. And it was so
good, it was such a relief felt. But we who went are the people who should try
to instill that in our community and it worked but then you know after a while
it goes off.

But I could see what Imam wanted, he was saying that you know all we need
in our community is love and love for one another. And that's what the
Focolare had in their community. And it does make a difference. And that
song that says "what the world needs now," it is a truism, a truism. And if we
can look at one another and look at them as a human being as a person, not this
label, that label,…And that we all are children from Adam and Eve and all
that. I guess it will take a minute, but that's what I learned from Focolare. Long
lasting. And I tend to carry that even now, you know I have a love for people.
That's their children, they don't have to be mine.

T. Najee-ullah: So I think you also covered some of the answers to this, I'm gonna ask the
questions. If you think that you've already touched on the answer you don't
have to answer them go to the next one okay? So well this question is- you
answered how you felt about your experience. Was it what you expected?

A. Sharif: In Italy?

T. Najee-ullah: Yes ma'am.

A. Sharif: Oh. It was beyond, it was really awesome. I don't like to use that word but it
was really great. The country itself was beautiful and the people were friendly
and I really kind of fell in love with it. It really is a romantic kind of country

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 because you can feel the romance and I was able to get dialysis there for three
days and they went with me, served as my interpreter. The program, they had
programs with people, when they had programs with people, this particular
one was for Muslims all over the world, so we met Muslims from Turkey,
from every- Japan, China, oh it was blazing.

Because they also had an area where they did for themselves, they had a
furniture factory where they built and made furniture, you know, bedroom
furniture, children furniture, everything. Everybody, all of the Focolare or
Focolarinis, the Foclorinis. They're from numerous countries but they all speak
Italian. It's like we're supposed to speak Arabic. So they can be Japanese but
they speak Italian. They had so much unity and of their artists they had their
things on display. It was much more than I expected. And then they had
programs with the Japanese dancing in their beautiful colors. The other thing
is when we have our programs here with the Focolare, we're invited, we have
to participate.

And everybody know, well what should we do? I thought. Let's do Clara
Mohammed's song, so we did- everybody didn't know it but I had- the book I
had done, the Champion, the book I had done for Imam I had put Clara
Mohammed's song in the front and I had a copy with me so we Xeroxed it and
everybody got a copy of it. And so that was our song, was the Clara
Mohammed. It turned out really nice, we had a little choir, it turned out really
nice.

T. Najee-ullah: How would you compare the trip to Rome, to Italy, as a religious trip, how
does it compare with other religious places you've visited?

A. Sharif: Other religious places?

T. Najee-ullah: Or other places in general, I mean I don't want to limit you to religious places.

A. Sharif: I would say Italy was probably a nine as compared- my only disappointment
was the day that I had dialysis was the day they went to the Sistine Chapel.

T. Najee-ullah: Oh wow.

A. Sharif: And I didn't get to go there. But we went to Trent, Italy, where the movement
was born from Chiara Lubich. So we had that history, how it came about. I
went there and I had a dialysis there and then we went to Rome and there was
another place we went which is where they had the furniture and the different
things. But it was beautiful too, scenic, because you could see the grapes and
the olive trees and the grapes vines where they had the ... Oh what was really
interesting and impressive was where we stayed. We stayed at Gandolfo, I
can't say it but I know it in my mind. Castel Gandolfo

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T. Najee-ullah: Yes I saw it.

A. Sharif: Yeah.

T. Najee-ullah: I have that-

A. Sharif: That was the summer home of the Pope and he gave it to them and they
renovated it, they fixed it so it would be like dorms and there was no
basement, they made a basement, and that's where the cafeteria, where the
dining room was. And it was interesting there, they had a routine. Each
community, we were responsible for cleaning and setting up, it was real nice.
The food was good. So then of course they had the market where you can go
buy olive oil or other food to bring back. But it was very impressive, very
impressive.

T. Najee-ullah: So these other two questions I think you've already shared- I'm going to read
them but then I'm going to go to the other ones. What difference has this
experience made in your life and what did you- what did you learn, I think you
talked about that.

A. Sharif: I did.

T. Najee-ullah: So the next question, has what you experienced impacted how you see religion
and then the second part of that question is, has it-

A. Sharif: My sociology class and one of the assignments we had was to write about well
whatever we wanted to. And so my papers were always about Islam and I
wrote about the difference. It was about the difference between Oral Roberts,
you know his community and our community. And some of it was similar
because they had a ministry for prisoners, you know a ministry for different
things it was similar. But I remember writing a paper about Al Islam and the
leadership and different things. When he returned my paper it was an A and he
wrote on it, "you should be a public relations person for Islam."

There was so much information that they didn't never know and that I should
do public relations. But the funny part was I was doing- you know, I was
already doing public relations for the community. So and then there was one
paper I did, independent study, I had to do a paper on anything. Of course it
was on Islam again. My teacher, I didn't know that she was Atheist, she said
she was Atheist, but she gave me an A on that paper and she kept it. She said
"I want to keep this." I said "you can't keep my paper," but she kept it and
maybe she wanted for other people to know about it. It was interesting. But
every chance I ever got when I was in school to do anything it would be to
spread Dawah, the Dawah of Islam.

T. Najee-ullah: The question was has what you experienced impacted how you see religion?

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A. Sharif: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

T. Najee-ullah: And the second part of that was, religion, current events, politics, equality,
freedom, or moral guidance in society.

A. Sharif: The first part is what I learned I guess from interfaith and of course from
Imam is that all religions should be respected, the major ones, they should be
respected, all of them. And that the order in which they go, you know,
Christianity came first and how our religion confirms a lot of stuff that's come
through. I already know from Qur'an where we stand on a scale from one to
ten we're a ten. I already know that. I don't throw it around because it's not a
good idea to do that, but there's so many things that have occurred that makes
me know how real and how great Islam is. It came with the creations of the
heavens and the earth and Islam is submission to the word of Allah.
Everything in creation submits to Allah's will, everything.

And nature submits to his will. Therefore him creating human beings, we
should do the same. I think my experience has let me to know how real Islam
is, Allah is, although I still got a long ways to go. But it's impacted my life
extremely, that I wish more people could see the beauty of it, the greatness of
it. I think they do, especially when it comes for- but we have to have things to
hold them, you know, we have to have developed things. But the only solace I
get from that, because of this unity that we have, is that I know that Allah can
bring us all together in the twinkling of an eye. No matter where we are, what
we're doing, what we're working on with this organization or that. If Allah so
wills and it was necessary, he could bring all of the Muslims together in unity
in the twinkling of an eye. That's my solace. Because the frustration of
division you know then again Allah knows everything, nothing happens
without his will.

T. Najee-ullah: Absolutely. Would you say that your viewpoint has been broadened or
narrowed, and have you changed your ideas and thinking since having these
experiences of interfaith.

A. Sharif: Extremely broadened, because a lot of that for me, Imam Mohammed, a lot of
times when he would talk people would get the idea that he's talking just about
our community. But he was always talking about the whole, you know, and
never just a few people here, a few people there. Never. It was always
everybody.

T. Najee-ullah: I think you've answered this one, but just I want to say it in case you want to
add anything to it. Are there any insights you have as to why Imam
Mohammed pursued this dialogue?

A. Sharif: What dialogue?

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T. Najee-ullah: With Pope John Paul II and with the Focolare.

A. Sharif: Mmm. John Paul II was totally historic, he was like the son of the honorable
Elijah Mohammed had the opportunity to meet with the Pope of the Catholic
community. It was historic to show the levels that we've come from and how
Imam Mohammed his, this is my opinion, but how his understanding of the
religion and the [inaudible 00:55:14] and his performances and him as a leader
went from there all the way up to here. Went from his, Martin Luther said, a
mountain top and it was such an honor that he was most humble and to be
there and so for that and it dignified our community, it dignified us. And from
that part, you know the other part was what now?

T. Najee-ullah: So I guess what do you think his intentions were or what do you think he
hoped would result from those dialogues? The meetings in Rome, the Pope
and the Focolare.

A. Sharif: Well again to align ourselves with like-minded people. He had a respect for
the Pope. That Pope and this Pope, they're a little different than the others.
They were reaching out to the Muslims, they reached out to us to try to better
understand about us and not just to tolerate us, you know. And but to better
understand and see the similarities, with us and the Christianity part, and this
Pope was very progressive. I mean he went everywhere, he was very
progressive. I can't really say what Imam's intentions were. I don't know but I
know it was all good, for the better, for us and again it dignified our
community. And it showed our interfaith responsibility and just like the
[inaudible 00:57:49] says if Allah wanted all of us to be one thing but he made
it so we wouldn't hate one another but that so that we would learn about one
another.

T. Najee-ullah: That's right.

A. Sharif: And even when a lot of the negative things came out about the Catholics and
the priests [inaudible 00:58:11], you know said these people knew about all
this stuff a long time ago. It's like they wanted to wait for a certain time to
come out and try to embarrass them. I mean he didn't condone anything but he
didn't really want us to clamp down on them. Because it was just a few apples.

T. Najee-ullah: Well these are the final questions, because I think you've answered what,
because we didn't- at the Vatican what Pope John Paul meant to you. What the
meeting with Chiara Lubich meant to you.

A. Sharif: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

T. Najee-ullah: So the last ones are, giving your opinions, do you think these dialogues were
successful, why or why not, and do you think they were effective, why or why
not.

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A. Sharif: I do. Because today the dialogues continue. The association with the Focolore
continues. It may not be all over the place, but there are groups of people in
the community who continue to uphold the legacy that we have with them.
And these people are sincere. It was so interesting. We never felt like we were
being proselytized and we never proselytized them. But when you get their
literature you'll see they always have something in there about Islam or Imam
Mohammed and you can feel from the heart that they were sincere. So and
here again, as he's told us before, it doesn't take like a whole crew of people,
you just have those sincere folks that keep the hope alive so to speak. And I
think eventually, while I may not see it in my time, but I think that young
adults and young people coming up, I think they want to continue the legacies
and it's there, the seeds are there, always there. Yeah. It's a good thing, it was a
good thing.

T. Najee-ullah: So I think this last question on that vein, I think you've answered it, so you can
choose to answer it or not. Was this- I'm trying to capture, the essence of
something, so I'm asking some similar questions that get us the same thing
[inaudible 01:01:23] depending on how people answer. Was this experience
beneficial to you and to our community like how you said that.

A. Sharif: Yeah.

T. Najee-ullah: And if you could rate it as a scale of one to ten with ten being the most
meaningful and one being the least, how would you rate this experience. And I
think you've already-

A. Sharif: Like the Focolare, Pope-

T. Najee-ullah: Well yes ma'am they're two different experiences.

A. Sharif: On a scale of ten I'd rate it a 15. It's historical. We've done so many firsts. You
know Imam giving invocation for the senate was a first. The Vatican was the
first, you know it's just so many things. We'd signed [inaudible 01:02:18]
charter when we was there, that was a first. There were so many things
pioneering.

T. Najee-ullah: So these last questions are open for you- did you learn anything else from this
experience and is there anything else you wanted to share or comment?

A. Sharif: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I just only hope that from what Imam has taught us,
what he's- was blessed to be an example that we could really keep it going,
carry it on. Not superficial, not our own brand of stuff, accuracy, the thing that
I like most is accuracy. Writing for Muslim journal and anything that covered
the White House, the State Department, these are places that I covered with
Imam Mohammed. A lot of places it's accuracy, yeah, and put your thing, this
thing and that, put the truth. And that's what I would hope our history,

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 documentary, whatever is pure accuracy. Nothing embellished, nothing taken
out. Because truth is powerful and truth is extremely powerful. It is what's
necessary to help grow people, to have balance- is the truth. Accuracy. That's
it.

T. Najee-ullah: Thank you for your time, thank you for allowing me to intrude on your dinner.

A. Sharif: Oh, no.

T. Najee-ullah: Just share your company.

A. Sharif: I was hoping you'd eat with me.

T. Najee-ullah: So but it was good, it was really good. But I appreciate you, I really do
appreciate you allowing me to come here.

A. Sharif: Mmm.

T. Najee-ullah: I truly appreciate you and your service to the community

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Edited Interview with Dr. Mikal Ramadan

September 2, 2016

Location: Mosque Cares Annual Muslim Convention at Tinley Park, IL

Author/Transcription Note: The notation “inaudible” simply means that a sound

obscured what word or phrase was exactly stated in the audio recording.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I have to ask a couple of questions, recording for research purposes …
internal review board.

Do you consent to this interview being audio recorded?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: Yes I do

Tariq Najee-ullah: How would you like to be identified?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: Imam Dr. Mikal Ramadan

Tariq Najee-ullah: What is your location of residence?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: Chicago.

Tariq Najee-ullah: What year were you born and what is your age, however you can
answer the question.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: I'm 68 years old and I was born in Mount Clemens, Michigan. Not far
from where Imam Mohammed was born. Just a couple days from
when he was born, so we mentioned that before to him.

Tariq Najee-ullah: How old were you when you joined the community?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: I joined in 1962, I was about 10 or 11 years old. Quickly, my family
was all Methodist and we attended a church not far from my home and
we were very active. My mother was active in the church activities
and my father was active. It was an elderly couple that lived between
our church and our house - they were Muslim. They invited us to the
temple. This was probably back in 1960 and we began attending. My
father liked it and we did too. Eventually we wrote our letters and we
joined the nation. Just to make a long story short we were very active
in selling Muhmmad Speaks newspapers. I grew up in the community
and I went to college in the community, I was active in that time.

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Tariq Najee-ullah: That's the basic set up as far as who you are. The next questions I have
are kind of centered on background with interfaith and then we'll talk
specifically about the events.

How do you feel about interfaith relationships between Muslims and

Christians?

[00:03:10 audio stops and begins again] - generations.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: What was I talking about?

Tariq Najee-ullah: These questions - again, they're just really to set up a background and
then with interfaith, experience with interfaith, and then we're talking
specifically about these events regarding the history of Imam.

How do you feel about - in general - about interfaith relationships

between Muslims and Christians?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: I feel it's essential. We're believers, they're believers. I owe this
understanding to Imam Mohammed, who changed my view from the
Nation of Islam. He pulled and tugged us along and expanded our
understanding. I appreciate the strong faith that they have and I am so
grateful to be now establishing the contact with the Focolare that we
have. I think if you said that there are times and different ways that the
example that they are to us, of practicing real loves amongst
themselves. And loving being a servant to others, which you can feel
with the Focolare.

In our first contact we were, perhaps suspicious, we had never seen ...
we'd been raised with Catholics all our lives, we were raised with
white folks all our lives. And here we have these people acting
different and expressing a different feeling. Expressing a love and
respect for our faith. They weren't trying to proselytize, they weren't
trying to, you know - "this is why mine's better than yours". But
actually, through the relationship, they were enhancing my
understanding and their relationship with us enhanced theirs, they
would say it so many times.

So I am grateful to Allah and thankful to Imam Mohammad for

establishing this. They raised the bar. They raised the bar in loving one
another. Sometimes you haven't felt that feeling and they established
that love is working, love is opening, love is serving. You know,
loving is being a first, as they say, to establish the contact and the
follow through. There are principles that I find personally ... some
principles I get from the Focolare - just like principles I got from the
F.O.I. General orders and things like that, that stand as foundational in

136
 my character. Everything from my faith, but these things stand as
[inaudible 00:07:04]. I like that.

Tariq Najee-ullah: That's wonderful. I think I'm going to read something about the event
and then talking detail about those.

Imam Mohammed went to Rome and met with Pope John Paul II at
the Vatican in October of 1996. There were a series of meetings that
preceded this first trip between Imam El-Amin, Imam Eric El-Amin
and eventually Imam Earl Abdul Malik Mohammed at the Vatican.
Imam Mohammed initially met with Cardinal Arinze in Baltimore in
1995 at a program on interreligious dialogue between Muslims and
Catholics. Then Mohammed met afterward with Cardinal Keeler who
served as Archbishop of Baltimore at that time. In Rome, Imam
Mohammed and his delegation met with several catholic communities.
The community in which Imam Mohammed developed an ongoing
relationship was the Focolare. Imam Mohammed developed a deep
and respectful relationship with Chiara Lubich, leader of the Focolare
movement. In 1997, Chiara Lubich of the Focolare movement spoke
with the aid of her Italian translator at the Malcolm Shabazz Masjid in
Harlem, New York with Imam W. Deen Mohammed. Imam Ezekiel
Pasha moderated.

Imam Mohammed again, traveled to Rome in October 1998, and again

visited with Pope John Paul II. Imam Mohammed delivered a
testimony and prayer at the closing ceremony in Vatican City, at the
interreligious assembly before the central committee for the great
jubilee of the year 2000. Pontifical council for interreligious dialogue.
The theme was toward a culture of dialogue. Remarking on this
amazing event, Dr. John Borelli wrote, "In October 1999 at the
Interreligious assembly convened in Rome by Cardinal Arinze, as a
preparatory event for the celebration of a great jubilee, year 2000,
Imam Mohammed offered prayers on the steps of Saint Peters Basilica
during the closing service. I was told that it was the first time that a
Muslim offered a prayer in any formal way in the precincts of Saint
Peters. In American Muslim praise and a public service as essential
spot in the Vatican. I was pinching myself again."

Questions - did you travel as part of Imam Mohammed's delegation on

either of these trips to Rome?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: No I didn't.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Were you in attendance at Malcolm Shabazz Masjid in Harlem?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: No I wasn't.

137
Tariq Najee-ullah: Do you know those who were in attendance?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: Practically all of them. All of the ones that you mentioned. I really
became active with the Focolare after that and I probably was one of
those that were slower to come around. I was aware of when those
trips were occurring, I wasn't really invited at the time. I experienced
and spoke with all of the ones who came back and all. I heard the
stories and the experiences and later saw them on tape. Even when
Chiara Lubich was in Washington, I did attend then. I was of the
mind, slowly coming around, [inaudible 00:10:33], how do they fit in?
I didn't understand what was the point, what was the excitement about
them.

So only after that did I begin to personally discover the Focolare. So I

didn't personally attend any of the meetings with Imam. In fact in
Chicago, [inaudible 00:11:09], 15 years. After Imam, he wasn't going
to the Focolare house and setting up the programs and all. I became
very active after that. Annually, my wife and I were in Rome, setting
up the programs and the encounters and what not. So I was kind of
slow to come around. I can witness that in others too. Some came
around quickly, some came around slowly. Some still don't know why,
they're back there where I was. You know, Focolare? Why Focolare?

Tariq Najee-ullah: This experience, I noticed that in interviewing people from our
community, why do you think that is? At that time, what did the
experience mean to you? What would that experience mean now to
you, having had the relationship with Focolare? If you could - I don't
know if you remember how you felt then, at that time when Imam was
having those trips, what did that experience mean?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: When you're in Chicago, Imam took a lot of trips to a lot of different
places. He was going to speaking engagements all over the country, all
over the world. Initially in our [inaudible 00:12:37] we used to go
travel to the speaking engagements he would have around nearby, take
a bus. So it wasn't ... he'd travel to different places, that's fine. The
stories that came out of this trip - he took a delegation with him - and
the stories that came out were different. We would hear about these
people that were different. They hadn't seen any white people like this.
They were really loving. And I could remember a sister that was on
the trip, "Yeah, and Imam was really listening and taking to them,
what they were saying". So I would year that, and "okay".

I would give more and more ear to it. But it still ... and they began
having encounters in different places. We were in Chicago - very slow
coming around. They had encounters down in Texas, in Houston.
They would have encounters in Indianapolis, in different places, and

138
 still we had nothing in Chicago. Even though this was the place, Imam
was here and where he really visited the Focolare here and started
establishing the relationship with them. There's a whole history and
story on that. But we really came around slowly, okay.

So, now you say how is that different from the way it is now?

Tariq Najee-ullah: Yes sir.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: Oh my goodness. I thank Allah. I respect people who come around
slowly or are struggling with it, or that don't see it. But it's a great
value, it's a great value. What we see from attending - I've gone to
Rome four times and attended the interreligious dialogue. Some of the
ground rules that were established, to me, set the standard for
interreligious dialogue. That we would not proselytize each other, we
both recognize that there were those in each of our faiths that didn't
believe in what we were doing. We recognized that, but we recognize
the common ground that we have of love and mutual respect and
things that we can learn from one another. Those were the common
ground rules, we would respect one another's point of view on various
topics. We look at prayer, how do they look at prayer. How do we
look at loving your neighbor, how do we look at various things, and
they would have a point of view, we would have a point of view, and
there was a mutual respect.

But you would love that they love God. That's the bottom line. They
love God and you love them, because they love God. They love the
neighbor and they really are able to demonstrate it such that others can
feel it, okay. They can demonstrate it such that others can feel it. Of
different faiths.

In the early dialogues - now we've gotten off the point. The early
dialogues it would be just the Focolare and Muslim friends of the
Focolare. So it'd be Muslims from all over the world and the Focolare.
We kept saying, well, why don't we have everybody here. We raised
the issue - why don't we have everybody here? So the last time it was
open, we had different faiths, we had Jews, Christians, Sikhs,
Buddhists, Hindu, you know. We didn't know how it was going to turn
out, we didn't know how that would be but Allah blessed it and it was
a very beautiful event. They sincerely loved Imam Mohammed. They
sincerely ... when he passed, we were over there ... let me back to your
-

Tariq Najee-ullah: This is good, because I'm asking qualitative questions, so it's basically
how you feel and what your observations are. There's no right or
wrong answers.

139
 So you said you visited Rome a number of times. How did you feel
about your experience? Is it what you expected? How was it similar or
different to other visits to other places?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: In many ways it was more than I expected. They are experienced in
being hosts, they have a whole city of their own. This is the Catholic
religion and the resources, you know we stayed in the Castel
Gandolfo, the Pope's summer residence. They have tours of Rome and
they have Catholic Universities there, you know, so we interacted with
intellectuals. You see some of their best resources, the libraries are
open to us. Their priests are open to us, tour guides are open to us, the
organization is tight. They record everything and they thought through
everything. They are courteous and very respectful, even in their
building they have a Wudu station, okay? In the Pope's summer
residence, in the Castel Gandolfo, the built over there for their Muslim
guests a Wudu station. We had a place for prayer, prayer times in the
agenda. Then we would have time for picture taking and time for
touring and time for being alone.

So it was ... every time they would always have, in preparation for the
trip, they would have the best fares. How it could be convenient for us
to travel, if there was anything else we would need. They were very
experienced in being hosts. Then you see the films of Chiara Lubich
when she went visited with the Hindus or the Buddhists and with her
spirituality ... faith is one thing but then spirituality of loving your
neighbor, loving God and loving your neighbor and doing onto others
as you would have done to yourself, resonates. You can see it
resonating. So that's the beauty of her. I can remember when Imam
Mohammed first kind of noticed that, you know, they have Muslims.
Focolare! They mentioned that. We take that for granted now but they
had Muslims who were Focolare, you know. So without changing
your faith, [inaudible 00:21:43] you up and your capacity to love. This
was significant for us, okay.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I didn't know they had Muslims in the Focolare.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: In Algeria right now, coming up probably next month, a whole
Focolare in Algeria. I was invited to that but my schedule wouldn't
permit. Mikall Saheer is going and his wife. All muslims, the whole,
in Algeria, all of them are Muslims and it's a Focolare compound.
They're in Algeria and they're celebrating, I don't know how many
years that they've been there. So, yeah. That would be an experience.
You should really have some information about that.

140
Tariq Najee-ullah: Some of these questions you've answered but I wanted to repeat them
... still ask them to give you a chance to expound upon them or choose
not to.

What difference has this made in your life? What does it mean to you
or what is the value of it?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: It's very meaningful. It's very meaningful. When we respond to
people, we respond out of our own cultural context. You know as a
muslim, as an African American, with the history and legacy of us in
America and to those we've grown up around and interacted with all
along, we have a ways of doing it. Depending on what we accept and
our background experience, you know. In the workplace and what not.
Focolare sort of turned it upside down, that's what it did. It turned it
upside down. They base their interaction first on love, putting yourself
in the other person's shoes, okay. Now for my African American
context, I could come a certain way. Or my Islamic context I could
come and know that they are son's of Adam. They have a right to this
religion, this faith, they're the same, okay. That does not take it into ...
they have active loving. They put love on steroids, all right, yeah.
That's difference from being open and I want to share my faith with
you or I can influence you or my example to you, or now the Focolare
- boom. I want to get to know you, I want to feel where you're coming
from, I want to interact with you. It's a fine difference.

Tariq Najee-ullah: From a place of love and humanity.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: Active. There's a passive understanding of the love and humanity or
there's an active love and humanity that I want to actively extend to
you. That's what I get from them. That's what I think Imam
Mohammed saw. He felt, "my community needs some of this".

Tariq Najee-ullah: Actively loving one another.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: That's right. He said that.

Tariq Najee-ullah: You've kind of answered this but ...

We talked about this, what you learned about interreligious

relationships from this experience, so I'll go to the next question which
is: Has what you experienced impacted how you see religion?

Has you view been broadened or narrowed, or changed any ideas

since?

141
Dr. Mikal Ramadan: I thank Allah for Imam Mohammed. This is what the experience did,
okay.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Yes.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: This is what the experience did. Imam brought us into the faith of our
Islam. A new appreciation of it, the understanding of it, to seeing what
cultural locked in the religion and what's not. What Allah wanted us to
rise above and understand and then what's not. That's where I am,
that's from whence I come, thank Allah.

What the Focolare did and this also - because I wouldn't have known
the Focolare except it came through Imam Mohammed, he saw. And
what they did was put a whole new level on interfaith relation,
dialogue, and working. We call it the Interfaith Dialogue of Action, of
living. Dialogue before would have been, let's just talk. That's my
point with your points. This is how we see it versus how you see it.
You know that goes on all of the time and it gets nowhere - not that it
gets no where, it enhances understanding, but it goes on in closed
chambers all along. We were always pushing the envelope in our
encounters, we wanted to be in a dialogue of action, a dialogue of
living, to where we would know one another -

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: So it was this dialogue of life and dialogue of action, we would take it
to the next level, not just talk. We would actually do and learn and
love one another across the faith boundaries. We recognize the
common ground, love the common ground, then love the people that
came to the common ground. That's another level, okay, that's another
level. First level is just recognizing the common ground and talk about
the common ground, next is to love the people and begin to do things
and begin to do good works. Do good works that God respects through
that common ground, that's where we're going, that's where we're
taking it with the Focolare and with our efforts.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: So that's it and in planning encounters every year, that's where we
want to be taking it. So we will be feeding the poor and out in the
community, they participated in our parades with Imam - oh that's one
thing. We would go to the Bud Billiken parade and ...

Tariq Najee-ullah: Chicago, downtown Chicago?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: Yeah and we would have a big poster of Pope John Paul II on the back
of the Muslim ... you know this has always been hailed as a black
parade. The biggest African American parade in the country and when
Imam met with John Paul II, we would have a big poster of him on the
back of the float. That would raise - what is this all about? Why is here

142
 there? And it's heralding this relationship that we have with the
Focolare, with the Catholics, the muslim catholic relation. That was
significant.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Are there any insights you have as to why Imam Mohammed pursued
this dialogue and what do you think his intentions were? Did he say
anything to you that suggested what he was trying to achieve by
pursuing this?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: He wanted ... you know how that commercial says, let me have what
they're having? That would be it. My community could benefit from
what they have. It was important because we are victims of prejudice
for so long and we were coming out of the first, "white people are
devils", it's a big total circle, 360 degrees. So many of us may harbor
things about white people, which would not be surprising. You see
evidence of, you know ... and we still harbor stuff about ourselves,
too. We can't freely love one another and take it to the next level. The
structure will foible. He wanted to see - he wanted us to have a taste of
that and that was good. He wanted that to grow amongst us, he wanted
us to grow, extend it to us and extend it to ourselves. He said he
wanted his kids to have it and his grand kids to have it and go on.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Active love.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: That's right, active love. It's a love of the neighbor through the love of
God, that's spirituality. That's it. It's opening us up.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So with that being said would you say that other than us learning how
to love like they love, was there anything else that you could reason or
think that Imam Mohammed also wanted to happen as a result of this
relationship, whether ... not just the active love but maybe something
we were supposed to gain or something they were supposed to get
from us, or something just ... the world would improve ...

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: You know, they learned a lot from us. They learned the intensity of
our commitment, our sacrifice, you know. Things that we would just
stop and do, it was that time for prayer. They learned from us, they
learned a clarity of our religion. The clear, simplicity. They would
explain things, the suffering, this, that, they had a lot of ways that they
described it. But they would see that ours was straightforward and
requires effort and commitment. Fasting. So they loved that about us
and a unique thing - they found us more receptive than they found the
black Catholics. They would have black Catholics that they would
take the Focolare perspective to, they were less responsive than we
were. That's due to Imam Mohammed.

143
Tariq Najee-ullah: Yes sir.

So we're wrapping up here, the closing questions, and again you've

addressed this at various other points but I guess these are kind of
wrap up questions to offer you an opportunity again. Then I have a
couple of follow ups to those and then we'll be finished.

What did Imam Mohammed's meeting at the Vatican with Pope John
Paul II mean to you?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: It meant a lot. Before the Vatican meant nothing to me, it's like you
know nothing special to me, I should say. Nothing special to me at all.
Learning that there was another city that was a holy city to another
religion, okay that's nice knowledge. The Vatican, I'm aware of it and
it's function to Catholics but that was just knowledge. The fact that
Imam Mohammed a man from our community, African American,
was accepted and representative of Muslims in America, that's big.
The fact that he had an open meeting out in front of all the Vatican and
a speech there at the Vatican, that was significant. That raised him,
that raised us, that raised Muslims, that just raised everything up. That
was the start of my interest in the Vatican. I went back four times, I've
been to the Vatican. We had audiences, we were up on the stage, the
Pope was sitting there. But if Imam Mohammed had not done that,
that would have meant a lot less to me. The fact that he did and the
fact that we ongoing was continuing his legacy and valuing the
relationship, was significant, it meant a lot to me.

Tariq Najee-ullah: What did Imam Mohammed's meeting with Chiara Lubich of the
Focolare movement mean to you?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: That was the will of God. It was a Godsend. It was directed by
almighty God and all of us who see the videos and see the relationship
that those two had, the spiritual relationship and respect and mutual
love that those two had. When I watched those videos and films with
Focolare, it was like watching your parents. It was like watching your
parents. You have a love for both parents, it was so significant, both of
them had meant so much to the world. What Chiara Lubich was doing
and the interfaith dialogue, everywhere that they went, where the
Focolare are all over, 86 countries or something now ... how she has
broken down barriers and what not and now Imam Mohammed has
broken down barriers within our Islam and established this
relationship. This is so significant! This is right. I think future
generations, vehicles like this, will even appreciate this more perhaps
than we do now.

144
Tariq Najee-ullah: I think so. So the last couple of questions. It's difficult to measure
when events like this happen, but to give a context and to try to
understand part of my research is to document but also to try to
analyze the effectiveness so I have a couple questions related to that.

In your opinion, were these dialogues successful? Why or why not?

Can you quantify maybe an unsuccessful effect?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: They were successful and they're effective. It operates on a level that
doesn't receive the publicity. People judge success by how much
publicity, how much is in the news, like that, another level. But on
another level it's very significant. It broke down barriers and walls.
Now what we do when those barriers and walls are broken down is up
to us. If we share that, because there are ideas that are wall builders.
The wall builder ideas are rampant out there and you can easily fall
back into your prejudice, fall back into your camp, fall back into your
old understanding, fall back into your own faith and it's viewpoint.
You can fall back into that and it's easy and comfortable.

They were trail blazers, they said not a trail has been opened, if you let
weeds grow over the trail so nobody else knows the trail was here,
that's our fault. That's our fault. That's why it's important to have these
encounters in the spirit of universal brotherhood, that's a theme that
came from Chiara Lubich and the contract that she had with Imam
Mohammed. They would establish these regularly so that we would
acknowledge that these relationships exist and why they do and the
progress that we made.

The one thing that they do that is very helpful and breaks it down to a
personal relationship is they have ... almost like testimonies where
people would get up and say, "based on the spirituality" they don't like
that like that, but, "based on the standard that you have, what
experience have you had in your life recently, that you made contact?"
That you did this, did you go out of your way, did you ... this breaks it
down from a high level to a personal level. That's spirit. You can ask
Muslims, "what did you do on times of [inaudible 00:44:22] this
week? How did you share your faith with someone else? How did you
share your humanity with somebody else?" And they have to explain
it, or not have to explain, but willing to share that. To put that on our
minds.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I didn't know they had a contract with each other ...

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: Huh?

Tariq Najee-ullah: I said I didn't know they had a contract with each other.

145
Dr. Mikal Ramadan: Yes, they had a contract. Yes! They had a contract, a mutual contract,
not a written, enforceable, legal contract. But a mutual contract of love
that they had between those two and their two organizations, okay.
Yeah you should have that in your writing.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I do.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: That's important.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Yes I'll have to look that up. Right now most of the reading and
research that I've done is mostly been the Vatican's archives.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: You have to see the movies, you have to see the videos. The mutual
contract is a big thing, it's the key. That's the key. They knew that the
thing would be just between them two, but they made a contract and
out of the contract became these encounters in the spirit of mutual
brotherhood.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Where do you have ... the Focolare have those videos?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: Yeah, call the Focolare house. Here, let me give you the number. You
can tell them you spoke with me and ...

Tariq Najee-ullah: This is here in Chicago?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: Yeah.

Tariq Najee-ullah: If I were to contact them ... they have regular hours?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: You can call them anytime! They just recently changed, they rotate
every so many years, the people from area to area. Here's the two
numbers that I have.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Do you have an address for them?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: Yeah, Focolare House. Something on Greenwood, used to be the ... let
me see.

All of my things are referring back to the same thing.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Closing questions are ... was the experience beneficial to you or to our
community, you addressed that. So the last part is ... you addressed
this too. How would you quantify the success or you just talked about
that, so the last question before my actual last question is, if you could
rate this experience on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most

146
 meaningful and one being the least meaningful, how would you rate
it?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: To me ... it would have to be a 9.5 because I would have to leave room
for things that I don't know how to compare against. I do know that if I
had made this journey's with Imam, I made them after Imam, and all
of the things I came into were after. I wasn't with the party that went
initially. That would have enhanced it more. I think these are the most
significant, very significant.

It completed the journey from the Nation of Islam - I mentioned that

before. It completed the journey. Black man is God, white man is the
Devil. Okay, teaching in the Nation. Were in the Nation?

Tariq Najee-ullah: No sir.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: Well that, basically we can do whatever we want to do because we
were the chosen ... we went through the Nation with that. That had an
effect on us, that pushed us forward and also did a little brain
damaging. Imam Mohammed corrected that. He said, you are a part of
the human family. The family of Adam. Your faith is Al Islam. He just
taught us the religion of Al Islam. This, the Focolare, brought it all the
way back around. You had to put down all of that, "Black man is
God", which you put down already but it swept out what might have
been retained in the heart. It swept it out, swept it out. Brought it
around full circle. So, that's what I would say.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So is there anything else that you have learned, and our questions
haven't covered it, that you've learned from this experience or
anything else you'd like to share or comment?

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: It's all been a great blessing for Allah. I thank Allah because I feel like
I lived a dream. I don't know in terms of anything else professional I
would want to do, this is it. Practicing medicine. In terms of the time
period and living a time frame in human history, having lived right at
the time that I lived, coming from Christianity to the Nation of Islam
to Imam Mohammed to the relationship with the Focolare, seeing all
of that and having been - thank Allah - expanded. Each time
Christianity, I was expanded, Nation of Islam expanded me, Imam just
took it to another level. And Imam saw how this would expand us, too.
To come through all of this and to come back with a different view of
Christianity in awe, after every coming out of it. The feeling of it that
we had from the Nation of Islam, having come through this, this just
put the cherry on top. Okay, that's it.

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Tariq Najee-ullah: Well thank you for your time, we went a little bit past the thirty
minutes but I really do appreciate your generosity of time and making
time for me to do this. For documenting this history but also,
something that I think is important to you and important to our
community, trying to get the information best I can so I can do it
justice.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: I'll tell you, I thank Allah for the blessing of you doing this now. It's
brought things out in my that I was feeling but I hadn't brought fully to
mind. This has been ... hope you can make sense out of what I said.

Tariq Najee-ullah: It was excellent.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: So this is beautiful and I just make dua that Allah bless you with this
effort and that this is an important book that covers its time. We
needed this. There's so much history that can not remain in the
Catholic libraries, okay.

Tariq Najee-ullah: They document everything.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: That's right! They document everything and it's to their credit.

Tariq Najee-ullah: If I had my computer I'd show you, I just keep getting emails from my
advisor and I'm looking at it seeing his notes and document of every
meeting that Imam Earl and Imam Eric and Imam Abdul Malik had
with the Vatican. I have a summary of those meetings. A summary of
the meetings Imam had with the Pope and it's just ... they document all
of it.

Dr. Mikal Ramadan: We need to be calling people like that. Because the writers of history
are the ones transfer it to other generations. We do word of mouth and
that passes away. So please do this and be sure to look, call them and
get the videos.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Yes sir.

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Edited Interview Transcript of Sister Laila Mohammed

September 2, 2016

Location: Mosque Cares Annual Muslim Convention at Tinley Park, IL

Author/Transcription Note: The notation “inaudible” simply means that a sound

obscured what word or phrase was exactly stated in the audio recording.

T. Najee-ullah: As-Salaam ‘Alaikum.

L. Mohammed: ‘Alaikum As-Salaam.

T. Najee-ullah: Do you consent to this interview being recorded?

L. Mohammed: Yes, I do.

T. Najee-ullah: How would you like to be identified?

L. Mohammed: Laila Mohammed.

T. Najee-ullah: Your location of residence?

L. Mohammed: Roselle, New Jersey.

T. Najee-ullah: You don't have to answer this exactly. What year were you born and
how old are you?

L. Mohammed: I don't mind. I was born in 1959. I am 56 years old.

T. Najee-ullah: You have a very important place in this community. You are a part of
the first family. Your legacy precedes you. So thank you tremendously
for the honor in allowing me to ask you these questions.

L. Mohammed: Thank you.

T. Najee-ullah: Some of these questions I don't even have to ask you because Allah
has blessed your family to be the family that brought us Islam and
model for us what it means to be Muslim. So we appreciate that.

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L. Mohammed: I appreciate you. But ask me the questions anyway. You know them
already, the-

T. Najee-ullah: These questions are, because I asked you when did you come into the
community?

L. Mohammed: ... oh, okay.

T. Najee-ullah: When did you become Muslim? When did you ... Do I have anything?

L. Mohammed: No, you're okay.

T. Najee-ullah: Okay. Those type of things. Are you a pioneer in the community? Or a
legacy member of the community?

L. Mohammed: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

T. Najee-ullah: I can ask you those, but I think-

L. Mohammed: You know the answer already.

T. Najee-ullah: ... yes, ma'am. So I'm going to focus this interview, for time. We're
going to focus on some events. I'm going to read about the events that
my research focuses on, then I'm going to ask you some questions
about those.

L. Mohammed: Okay.

T. Najee-ullah: Imam Warith Deen Mohammed went to Rome and met with Pope
John Paul II at the Vatican in October of 1996. There were a series of
meetings that preceded this first trip between Imam Earl El-Amin,
Imam Eric El-Amin, and, additionally, Imam Earl Abdulmalik
Mohammed with members of the Vatican. Imam Mohammed initially
met with Cardinal Arinze in Baltimore in 1995, at a program on
interreligious dialogue between Muslims and Catholics. Imam
Mohammed met afterward with Cardinal Keeler in Baltimore, at his
home. Cardinal Keeler then served as the archbishop of Baltimore at
that time.

Later in Rome, in October, Imam Mohammed and his delegation met

with several Catholic communities. The community in which Imam
Mohammed developed an ongoing relationship was the Focolare. He
developed a deep and respectful friendship with Chiara Lubich, the
leader of the Focolare Movement. Later in 1997, Chiara Lubich spoke,
with the aid of an Italian translator at Malcolm Shabazz's masjid in

150
 Harlem, New York, with Imam Warith Deen Mohammed, and Imam
Ezekiel Pasha introduced him and moderated.

Imam Mohammed again traveled to Rome in October of 1999 and

visited with Pope John Paul II. Imam Mohammed delivered a
testimony and prayer at the closing ceremony in Vatican City, at the
interreligious assembly before The Central Committee for the Great
Jubilee of the Year 2000, before the Pontifical Council for
Interreligious Dialogue. The theme was Towards a Culture of
Dialogue.

Regarding this event, Dr. John Borelli, who serves as my mentor,

wrote, "In October of 1999, at the interreligious assembly convened in
Rome by Cardinal Arinze, as a preparatory event for the celebration of
the Great Jubilee Year 2000, Imam Mohammed offered prayers on the
steps of St. Peter's Basilica during the closing service. I was told that it
was the first time that a Muslim offered a prayer in any formal way in
the precincts of St. Peter's. An American Muslim prays in a public
service at a central spot in the Vatican. I was pinching myself."

Regarding these events, I have some questions for you and these
questions will help me in terms of my research. I have captured from
the Catholic Church their documents. I have their documentation of
what happened and the events surrounding what happened. From the
Focolare I have their published documents, and I'll be following up
with them trying to get whatever video they'd have and get their
statements on record.

What is missing, from our community, I just have Muslim journal

articles. I have excerpts of the Imam's speeches where he made
comments or remarks, sometimes at the convention when he spoke of
them at the public address. But I don't have anything from those
members that traveled with him or those members in our community
that have continued the relationship with the Focolare. I don't have any
feedback or anything in writing, and so part of my research is trying to
capture that so our perspective can be written down and documented
in an academic form, just like the others. And that [Arabic 00:04:54]
this will be a foundation for more work. Maybe we'll have a
documentary and a book to come out. But, right now, this is just thesis
research for my master's thesis.

L. Mohammed: Okay.

T. Najee-ullah: My questions, first, did you travel as part of Imam Mohammed's

delegation to either of these trips to Rome?

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L. Mohammed: No, I never went to Rome with Imam Mohammed, my father. But it's
very, it's interesting. But Allah plans, you know? After my father
passed, he passed in September as you know-

T. Najee-ullah: Yes, ma'am.

L. Mohammed: ... and there was a planned trip, a visit to Rome, in October. He was
supposed to go. The Focolare asked me to go and that was my first
time going to Rome. Since then I've been three times.

T. Najee-ullah: Okay.

L. Mohammed: The last time I met Pope Francis.

T. Najee-ullah: Oh, wow. [inaudible 00:05:48]

L. Mohammed: Yes.

T. Najee-ullah: How did you feel about this experience? Was it what you expected,
or?

L. Mohammed: Going to Rome?

T. Najee-ullah: Going to Rome. Yes, ma'am.

L. Mohammed: Prior to going to Rome I knew the Focolare. The first time I heard of
the Focolare was when my father told me about them. He said that he
had met many of them and he specifically talked about Lady Chiara.
He'd said that their spirits connected and that he wanted our
community to meet her community, and she wanted the same thing.
Because they had connected in the way they did, they wanted us to
then connect.

I knew about them, I had met them, and had gone to events with them.
I met Lady Chiara when she came to the Harlem masjid. Then one of
the really early memories is when we were in DC and she spoke. Were
you there?

T. Najee-ullah: No, ma'am.

L. Mohammed: It was so beautiful. It was thousands of people and I remember, first of

all, I'mma tell you this. My father, I should preference it with this, he
raised me to be a thinker and to respectfully question and so I said,
"Why you want us to do this with these Catholics and these white
folks?" So that's what I asked him and he was like, "I just think that
we would have a good experience," and he said, "Because of the love."

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 Then he said publicly, and privately, because of the relationship of
African Americans and Caucasians that we can perhaps heal or do
something to positively effect the process of moving past slavery. It
has done that. I can say for sure for me. There's this young activist and
she says that Black folks aren't prejudiced. Because I always say,
"Well yeah I'm prejudiced." But she says that you have to have a
certain setup to be prejudiced. We're just responding to a condition.

In my response to the condition I would tend to be very shy or very

standoffish with Caucasian people. Questioning. My relationship with
the Focolare, especially the Focolare here in Hyde Park in Chicago,
where I lived up until a month ago, I don't feel that way. They have
helped me to stop seeing a color before I see the character. We have
become so close, the women at the Focolare House in Hyde Park, until
I have told my children, "If my family or if we're not around and you
need something, go to the Focolare House. That's our family, too."

The Focolare, a couple of the ladies there, they have had problems in
their family and we've prayed together. I've prayed for one of them's
mother. They've prayed for my family. We're connected. I can say I
love them. Not that I've never had a working relationship and even a
friendly relationship with a Caucasian, I have. But this did something
different because it was God in it. Because you just got to see the
human being and they saw us. Over the years, we've done simple
things: eat together, go to events together, pray together, sing together.
Now we're together, you know?

When I went to Rome, it wasn't new in the aspect of the Focolare. But
it was very timely because Lady Chiara had passed. Her movement
was in the process of healing and in the process of continuing. I was
there along with [Ndidi Okakpu 00:09:49] and some other Imams and
we spent hours, way into the morning, talking about how our
community was going to move forward now that Imam Mohammed
had passed from this life. Now Allah can give him the [inaudible
00:10:03].

T. Najee-ullah: Amen.

L. Mohammed: It was helpful. It was almost like we could see our big sisters and
brothers and how they were doing and that we could do it, too. And so
[Arabic 00:10:16] it was good. It's been good. I've continued to work
with them. Now that I'm in Jersey, I've contacted the Focolare there so
continue to work. I actually, a few years ago in Rome, I made a public
statement that my father said he had a pact with Lady Chiara and that
he hoped that his children would, and I said, "I definitely do." I give
that same promise that as long as Allah allow me that I will have a

153
 relationship with my brothers and sisters of the Focolare [Arabic
00:10:58].

T. Najee-ullah: This is the second time I've heard about that pact. That was a verbal
commitment? A promise? What-

L. Mohammed: Yeah-

T. Najee-ullah: ... what were the details of it? I have not found it?

L. Mohammed: ... it's like a verbal commitment. It was a verbal commitment between
the two of them, but between the communities because it was said
publicly many times. The pact was talked about many times.

T. Najee-ullah: Okay.

L. Mohammed: You know my sister [Vichara 00:11:26]?

T. Najee-ullah: Yes, ma'am.

L. Mohammed: You know her daughter's named after Lady Chiara.

T. Najee-ullah: I didn't know that.

L. Mohammed: Yeah, her daughter [Haja 00:11:29]. Do you know Haja? Haja is a
teenager now. [Kira 00:11:40] just has two daughters. Haja is the
youngest daughter and her middle name is Chiara.

T. Najee-ullah: Oh wow.

L. Mohammed: Her name is Haja Chiara.

T. Najee-ullah: I did not know that. That's powerful. Your trip to Rome, you've said a
few things. Instead of just going in order of the questions, I'm trying to
go to the question that makes sense.

L. Mohammed: Okay.

T. Najee-ullah: So, this experience and relationship with the Focolare is different than
perhaps with the other interfaith groups?

L. Mohammed: Yes! Very.

T. Najee-ullah: What is that difference? Can you compare it? How would you describe
that?

154
L. Mohammed: The other groups, because I do a lot of interfaith work, and they get
frustrated with me because I get frustrated with them. Because they
make it too hard. With the Focolare, we just simply do regular stuff.
How I figured it out it's like, who are you closest to? Your family,
right? What do you do with your family? Nothing but eating and live
life. So when we get together with the Focolare we don't talk about an
agenda or what cause we're going to support together, we just live and
spend the day together. That's what makes it so simple but so unique
and wise. It's beautiful, but it's easy. Just like Allah said, he makes this
religion easy for us, and we make things difficult. I'm telling you all
we do is eat together, talk-

T. Najee-ullah: It's a very human relationship, it's not-

L. Mohammed: ... yes, it's a very human relationship.

T. Najee-ullah: ... there's no tension, there's no type of I guess sometimes these other
events may be orchestrated.

L. Mohammed: Yes, yes.

T. Najee-ullah: So like a lecture or something?

L. Mohammed: Yes. Other events and other groups I've been in it'll start off just a
meeting over coffee or tea or something, but then everybody wants it
to have an agenda. What cause are we going to work on together?
Then it becomes a debate over what cause is the best cause. That
brings up the friction. Or even, well this is what we believe and that's
why we believe it.

With the Focolare, we don't do that. We'll talk about spirituality and
talk about God, but it's not like I'm going to tell you and you tell me. It
was, this is very ... This is not true, this is like, just a story. So we're in
this space and it's raining today. I might start talking about the rain and
say something about Allah and they might say something like that.
That's how you learn about each other. But it's not that I'm going to
teach you. Not saying that we've never had those kind of moments --
those teaching moments or those purposeful moments -- but in the
beginning there was not that. At least I didn't participate, I've never
experienced, in the beginning anything orchestrated and anything
other than a natural situation to enjoy and get to know each other.

T. Najee-ullah: How would you compare your visit to Rome and the meetings that
you've had with the Focolare to other trips that you've had, other
places you've visited, whether they're religious or special places? How
would you describe that experience? How did that make you feel?

155
L. Mohammed: I can say that, because I've been there three times now, as a whole I've
had all types of experiences. The first time I went, I was thinking that
it was going to be very educational, like a museum trip. I was
surprised. I will tell you what happened. We were at the Vatican. We
went there for a tour. I'm in the larger area. When you go in there's this
big area, there are all these different people there, and I'm thinking,
I'm going to go here, I'm going to take my notes, like you go to the
museum. But I felt something. I'm telling you, I felt the presence of
Allah. I felt it. I looked around and wasn't nothing but a bunch of
people that did not look like me. I felt it. It was just beautiful.

My mother, she converted to Islam, and she was raised Catholic. All
of my aunties and my uncles, especially my aunties that I love dearly,
they're Catholic. One of the things that happened to me as a child,
people always say, "Oh you were born Muslim so you didn't have to
take your shahada," and you know, "You're a Muslim." But I think,
and other people have whatever experience, but my experience is that
yes I was born Muslim and I never wanted to do something else. But
there was a moment when I claimed it for myself.

It was one year during Ramadan, because you're really reading the
Quran intense and trying to be the best you can be. I remember
reading where Allah says that Muslims, Christians, Sabians, and Jews
will be in paradise. I'm paraphrasing. I thought, "Wow." Because I
thought about my aunts and I said, "This is for me. This makes sense."
I can remember at that same stage of life feeling why do Jehovah
Witnesses say what they say? Why do some of the Christians say what
they say? That we're not going to heaven. All that was in my mind as a
young teen, I was maybe 12 or 13 something. That's when I felt like,
"Yes." It was about that situation of being around Christians in your
family and Muslims, this interfaith.

When I got to the Vatican, I felt that experience and I remember I

wrote my daughter, I said, "I haven't made Hajj or Umrah but I think
this is how it feels to do that." That's the feeling I got in the Vatican.
That began to take me to where I am now because I really believe that
interfaith work is my main priority. I do empowering and domestic
violence and life coaching, but what I really, really love is interfaith. I
love diversity.

That was the spiritual event the first time I went. Then, like I told you,
we spent so much time looking at what they were doing to move on in
their community and then thinking about us. So the organizer in me, I
experienced that, almost like going to an organizing workshop or
something or a retreat. So I had that experience. I really can't hardly
remember the second time too much, but I remember the third time
very well.

156
 That's when I met Pope Francis. This meeting was a little different
because most of the meetings were about the Muslims and the
Focolare. But this last one was about several religions and the
Focolare. At this last one, there were monks, there were Jews, of
course there were Catholics and Christians, there were Muslims, and
they were also Muslims from around that world. Because the other one
was about mainly our community, too. So, they were Muslims from
around the world. At this time, Imam Mohammed had passed and we
were presenting on our relationship with the Focolare. It was a
different experience in that I could see how much Lady Chiara and
Imam Mohammed had an effect in the world. That was very
empowering, at the same time, made you feel a very big debt and the
responsibility of continuing. You see? I'm very grateful to you because
you asked me, I'm 56, and I could be your mother. And it makes me
feel wonderful, makes me feel peaceful and grateful, that it's important
to you to do this work.

T. Najee-ullah: [Arabic 00:20:29].

L. Mohammed: So, that's that. But then, lastly, I had a wonderful time in Rome, too,
on many occasions. We went to Tuscany, so beautiful. The Focolare
have a university called the Sophia University. It's in Tuscany. We
were having lunch one day, I looked out the window I said, "I must be
in the paradise." It was so beautiful. My times with the Focolare in
Rome have been a total fulfillment. Very nice. Italian food. Good
food.

T. Najee-ullah: [Arabic 00:21:08]. You've mentioned this and some of these questions
they're written in a way to, because I don't know how people are going
to answer the questions-

L. Mohammed: Okay.

T. Najee-ullah: ... I have to try to, so if you feel that you've already answered it, you
don't have to answer it again. What did you learn about interfaith
relationships from this experience?

L. Mohammed: Basically I learned the importance of taking the human right, letting it
be organic. That's the main thing that I've learned. I've learned that it
can be successful and that it can be lasting. It can be not just
something that you're doing because of a project or because of the
space that you're in, but something that you'll long for, you want to do.

T. Najee-ullah: Has what you experienced impacted how you see religion? For
example, has it broadened or narrowed your viewpoint or changed any
previous ideas or thinking?

157
L. Mohammed: I guess it's probably broadened it because of, and not just this, I also
have a relationship with a Jewish organization that's on the East coast.
I went to concentration camps with them. It was very impacting, also.
The experiences that I've had in the interfaith community has really
kind of erased the word religion from me. I think of it as believers or
spirituality, I don't really like that word, but I like believers. We
worship the Creator. I think the religious stuff gets in the way.

T. Najee-ullah: Some of these you've kind of expressed, but this will give you a place
if you want to add some more things. Are there any insights you have
as to why Imam Mohammed, why your father, pursued this dialogue?
What do you think his intentions were? What do you think he hoped
that would result from them?

L. Mohammed: I think that he hoped that we would have a positive outcome. That
individuals and the community would be positively affected in both
communities, our community and their community. Imam
Mohammed, as you know, because you're a student of Imam
Mohammed-

T. Najee-ullah: Yes, ma'am.

L. Mohammed: ... he didn't have the letters but he was a psychologist.

T. Najee-ullah: Yes, ma'am.

L. Mohammed: He was doing a psychological experiment or a project on us trying to

heal us from that ghost he said we'd carried on us from slavery. I think
that was, of course, a big part of it. I know my father and he was a
very sensitive and loving person. I think he just fell in love with Lady
Chiara, and when you fall in love with something or someone, you
want to share it with the people you love. That's what I think he did.

T. Najee-ullah: Yes, ma'am. We're kind of winding down here, but this is a umbrella
question that'll kind of give you a chance to add some other things.
What did Imam Mohammed's, your father's, meeting with Pope John
Paul II of the Vatican mean to you?

L. Mohammed: Wow, to me as Laila? As-

T. Najee-ullah: However-

L. Mohammed: ... as that's my daddy. It was unbelievable. I was born in Philly, but I
don't remember anything. We left when I was like two. I was raised on
the south side of Chicago. I wasn't raised in a space where I was the
person that I am now. Because my family wasn't known then because

158
 my father was put out of The Nation. We were just regular folks. We
lived in an apartment. I went to public school. Now, I went to Muslim
school when I was little. My degree is in early childhood, and you
really are formed at a very young age. I was under 10. Under 10, I was
just Laila, Wallace and Shirley's daughter, going to Enrico Fermi. My
father's with the Pope? It's mind blowing. It's surreal. Even now, my
father is in a monument with Dr. King? Even though you know it, but
it's still like, "Wow!"

T. Najee-ullah: Yes, ma'am.

L. Mohammed: But then me as the woman and the person who, I humbly say, I think
that Allah gave me a purpose to continue the work of my family,
which is now six generations of Muslims. My grandfather Elijah and
Clara, my grandfather's parents converted and they were always, all of
them, very serious about helping their people. By helping their people,
you'd help the world. Imam Mohammed even took it further, that we
help the world. We want to help our people. This is the Quran.

That's what I feel when I think about Imam Mohammed being at the
Vatican. I think what a wonderful leader. What progress he made, the
son of Elijah and Clara, and I got a whole lot of work to do. Let me
find my little piece of the puzzle and let me work that piece. [Arabic
00:27:18], you know? Because that's something that I have to do, take
my father and put him in pieces because he's my father, he's my Imam,
he was my employer, he was my mentor, and then I can say [Arabic
00:27:32] when I got to be older and had grandchildren, he was my
friend. We were friends. I have to see all those spots. When I see
something big, like him with the Pope, I see all those different things.
I try to balance that [Arabic 00:27:55].

T. Najee-ullah: Yes, ma'am.

L. Mohammed: Just keep moving. That's my new thing. Just keep moving, that's from
Takin' It To The Streets. I'm on Imam's board. We did that Marquette
Park and the stuff with Dr. King.

T. Najee-ullah: Yes, ma'am.

L. Mohammed: My thing is that I've been saying Dr. King in the Civil Rights
Movement, it was a movement. What happened to us? Why are we
here now at this Black Lives Matters and all this stuff we're going
through? Because we stopped moving. My thing is just keep it
moving, even if it's a little step, we just got to keep moving. It was a
movement and we can't, Imam Mohammed said, "We can't stop now."
Okay? So we just got to keep it moving. That's my thing.

159
T. Najee-ullah: You know and to see that they prayed for this, so we don't have a
choice but to keep moving, like you said.

L. Mohammed: You can keep moving because this is the thing, you survived. You got
the best in you. You came from the stock that made it. Okay? So you
can keep moving. It's beautiful. I feel like the stories that we're told
about slavery were spinned in such a way to keep us down. But if we
look at our lives, we are powerful. We are the best of the best. We
made it. Yes!

T. Najee-ullah: That is [inaudible 00:30:21]. I see the work of your father. I see it's
just a legacy. Allah is in control. Allah has raised us up and is giving
us what we need to move forward and to elevate, really to take
leadership of the world.

L. Mohammed: Yes.

T. Najee-ullah: We just can't be afraid of it.

L. Mohammed: No, we can't be afraid and we can't fight over it. We can't think it has
to be one person because it's not supposed to be one person. Imam
Mohammed was not a stupid man and he did not carelessly do stuff.
There's no way he would have passed and not left a successor if that
was supposed to happen. And if it was supposed to happen, Allah
would have saw that it happened. But, we're at a time where it's
collective leadership and everybody has their spot and their place.
When you figure it out, then just like Allah say, "Go as if in a race,"
and just move it, just keep it moving in your space. We're going to be
fine. We are fine. I think we're doing wonderful.

T. Najee-ullah: Continue to pray for [inaudible 00:31:18] because I want it to keep

going generations.

L. Mohammed: I think that it will though. We have little children, I have nine
grandchildren and some of them amaze me. Well, they all amaze me,
but some of them they're interested in this kind of stuff. I can
remember being a little girl, I can remember when I was seven maybe
eight, and I was sitting at the kitchen table with my father and he was
talking to me about his plans and what he wanted to do. I was
interested. I remember he used to always tell me, "Life is serious
business." That's what it is. Our children are going to know. Your
children are going to know.

T. Najee-ullah: [Arabic 00:31:59] We're winding down here. I'm going to be asking
you questions, one more question about the meeting and what it meant
to you and then I'm going to be asking you to analyze what you think

160
 the benefit was. But right now, what did your father meeting with
Chiara Lubich and the Focolare Movement mean to you at the time
that it happened? Or what does it mean to you now?

L. Mohammed: What it means to me now. They said that Lady Chiara, when she was
15 and she started the movement and they still say it now, that they
lived the Bible, that they want to actually take the Bible and bring it
into life. And that's what I feel. I feel that my relationship and my
experience with the Focolare has brought me to this place because
now I have an organization called A Shared Memory. It's basically to
share the story of African American Muslims but also to share and
provide spaces for diverse conversations, experiences, etc. What I say
is that I want to live what Allah says, that he made us different not to
despise each other but so that we would get to know each other. I got
that language from Lady Chiara, that I want to live that. Because that's
what the experience of the Focolare has meant to me, that we live
something that we have read about. You see? Yeah. We're not just
reading something that's in the Bible or the Quran. When we have
these spaces with people, with believers, we're living what Allah has
in those scriptures.

T. Najee-ullah: Looking at the dialogues and the relationships that have come out of
your father's meeting with the Pope and with the Focolare Movement,
in your opinion were these dialogues successful? Why or why not?

L. Mohammed: Yeah, I definitely think they were successful. One, because they have
continued. They've been consistent, and they have longevity. But not
just consistent and longevity, but positive, consistent, and longevity.
When you talk to people, you won't hear anybody saying, "I dread
going to those events." They're looking forward to it. It's a positive
consistency and longevity. I think they've been successful.

T. Najee-ullah: Do you think they've been effective?

L. Mohammed: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I think they've been effective. For me,

personally, I know it's helped me to move in my journey of getting rid
of that "ghost of slavery" that's on my back. Even, it has prepared me
to deal with these times when I hear Donald Trump and I'm just like,
"Yeah, okay, that's just you. Yeah, you've got some people that's like
you, but I know some people that not like you."

T. Najee-ullah: Right.

L. Mohammed: So whatever.

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T. Najee-ullah: Exactly. Yeah. Yes, ma'am. Evidently, I can see that this was
beneficial for you. You've described ways that it's been beneficial to
our community as well. How would you qualify or quantify, describe
these benefits that resulted from this in terms of the community?
You've talked about how it's impacted you-

L. Mohammed: How do I think the benefits help the community?

T. Najee-ullah: ... yes. I've talked to Dr. Ramadan before also to A. Sharif and they
talked about how the community was slow to embrace the-

L. Mohammed: Well certain people still are now in the community, definitely a part of
our community, definitely students and supporters of Imam
Mohammed. They don't want to be bothered with that. Everything's
not for everybody. It's just that simple. Just because I wear a cotton
scarf and not a wool scarf but it [inaudible 00:36:29] hair. Yeah, it's
not for everybody. What I think it has done for all of us as a whole, it's
done something that Imam Mohammed's father and my grandfather
and our first leader, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, he used to
always say that we will have friendships in all ... He said a lot of stuff,
good homes, something, but friendships-

T. Najee-ullah: "Money, good homes, friendships, in all walks of life."

L. Mohammed: ... "money, good homes, friendships in all walks of life." When you
are on a "world stage," like Imam Mohammed was when he met the
Pope and when you cross the waters, when you go out of your town
and out of your country and across the world and connect, it puts you
in a different space. Just like I always tell people, you have to have
your children experience global traveling. They have to go past the
United States to become a full person. It's such an enrichment. It did
that for us. It put us on a global stage and in a global understanding
and in global comfort. Even though you might not have been a part of
Focolare and Imam Mohammed's community dialogue, but if you are
a member of the Focolare and you are an associate of Imam
Mohammed's language, when you get into a global space you can pull
on that. You can go to that resource. It broadened us in that way and
that's a good thing. I'm sure it did other things also. But that's what
stands out in my mind.

T. Najee-ullah: Yes, ma'am. I just have three more questions. We did really good on
time. How do you feel about the experience? If you could rate the
experience on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the most meaningful,
impactful and 1 being the least meaningful, impactful, how would you
describe us?

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L. Mohammed: I would say it's a 10 and just way past. But I think I'm prejudice
because I like this kind of work. I've always been an engaging
conversation type person. I've always loved culture. As a kid I used to
say, "Bring me back the stamps, daddy, when you go overseas." I just
like diversity and stuff, learning new things about people and how
they eat, how they dress, what music they listen to. I'm kind of
prejudice in that way. I would say a 10; it's great. But I know some
people that say it's boring when they go around the Focolare because
some folks want drama and there's no drama. It just depends on the
person. I would rate it a 10.

T. Najee-ullah: Okay, the last two questions. Did you learn anything else from this
experience you want to share?

L. Mohammed: I think I did learn something. I've been saying "believers" and being
"believers," but I'm going to share with you an experience I had. They
may still have this, they used to have once a month on Sunday, they
would invite people to their home, kind of like a fellowship type thing.
They were telling me how they have some people that come that are
atheists and that was very interesting to me. It helped me in that way,
but I think a lot of stuff has helped me to get to where I am in the last
eight years, when my father passed. Him being my leader but him
being my father, it's something when your parent passes. You don't
know until you experience it, but it's something. You grow. What I
have learned is patience. I was just talking earlier to the brother, and
this does connect, and we were talking about forgiveness. You know
Catholics, that's really big, forgiveness.

T. Najee-ullah: That's right.

L. Mohammed: So we were talking about forgiveness and I was saying that I can
forgive but I always told myself don't forget, because then you'll make
the mistake again. But I have been impatient sometimes with the other
party not coming with me because I tend to forgive a little quicker
than other folks. I have learned that if you really love someone and
you really forgave them, you'll wait as long as you have to wait. You
not going to be mad at them or pressure them because they haven't
forgiven you. That's kind of that idea with the atheists. Because I was
thinking, "Why y'all have atheists here? We're supposed to be all
believers." But you just be patient. You meet the person where they
are. You don't criticize the person or treat the person bad. I learned
that from them.

T. Najee-ullah: That's wonderful. I think the first time I heard about that, atheists, was
when President Obama, at his inauguration, he kept saying believers
and non-believers, and I was like-

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L. Mohammed: Like who are the non-believers?

T. Najee-ullah: ... I was in D.C. at that time doing that kind of work and that was the
thing people kept saying that. I was like, "Oh he's talking about
atheists. Okay." [inaudible 00:42:16] we had pagans, self-proclaimed
pagans, they came to the interfaith, interesting, but I had to meet
people where they are.

L. Mohammed: Yeah you have to meet people where they are. You have to not judge
people. That's not my business. My business is to treat you right so
that'll go on my record, that I treated you right because you're a human
being.

T. Najee-ullah: Yes, ma'am. Is there anything else you would like to share or
comment? Again, this is not everything. This is an attempt to get these
things on record and I pray that this goes well.

L. Mohammed: Yes! I want to share this. I went the first time and then I think it was
the second time that we went back, the lodging that we stayed in. Do
you know what they had done, in Rome? They had put in a wudu
station for us. I mean brand new, beautiful! I'm like this is
unbelievable. These some good people.

T. Najee-ullah: Because they don't have to make wudu.

L. Mohammed: No. And they didn't have to do that, I mean we can make wudu in the
sink or in the tub. But they put a beautiful wudu station for us, yes
they did. I mean it, not a portable thing. They changed the construction
of their place. It was beautiful.

T. Najee-ullah: That is wonderful. I wanted to say this, thank you so much for your
time.

L. Mohammed: Thank you.

T. Najee-ullah: The honor of your time and the honor of your company to ask these
questions, I really do appreciate it. I feel like Allah is using me as a
vessel to do this. I was doing interfaith work and Allah has kind of
thrust this in my lap. I was at Georgetown sitting in class and my
professor comes in, we have a guest speaker and he comes in and talks
about Imam Mohammed for an hour. He talks about his role in that
process. So I'm amazed. I'm the only one in the room that knows
anything about it, other than my professor. Talking to him, he agreed
to be my advisor, and he said, "I'll give you everything that I have. I
need you to do something. I need you to find out what Imam
Mohammed thought, what Imam Mohammed's community thought,

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 and I need you to document that." I said, "That's all I'm here for. That's
what I want to do anyway." He agreed with me and he gave me all the
resources.

L. Mohammed: [Arabic 00:44:33], that's beautiful.

T. Najee-ullah: It's my job.

L. Mohammed: I'm just so happy to be a part of it and happy to know it. Because I
think that interfaith is high at the top of what Imam did, Imam
Mohammed's success is for, and of what his legacy should be.

I remember I was talking to him because I was starting to do this book

and we were going to have interview sessions, but then he passed
shortly after that. But one of the sessions that we did have ... Because
I'm doing this book called, Imam Mohammed: Through A Daughter's
Eyes, and so I asked him, "What do you want to be remembered as?
How do you want to be remembered?" And he said, well actually, first
he ain't say a thing. He was just sitting there looking like trying to
think and actually acting like maybe he didn't know. But he eventually
said, "A man of moral courage."

People would automatically probably say, "Imam Mohammed was a

religious leader," or, "He taught the Quran," or, "He was a Muslim
leader," or, "He was the Imam. That's who he was." Well, I think
based upon him saying "moral courage" any believer can have moral
courage. He didn't say a man of Muslim morality. He just simply said
a man of moral courage. You know Imam Mohammed, he thinks
about what he says. He's very distinct about his language, about what
he's going to say. When I look back, I think that was it. The whole
interfaith thing, the whole connecting of human beings and leaving
behind that nobody can say that Imam Mohammed didn't want to help
everybody, didn't want to serve Allah by serving all of humanity.

T. Najee-ullah: Yes, ma'am.

L. Mohammed: So, I think that's his legacy. This work is his legacy. I really believe
and I don't see a lot of people doing it, so I'm so happy you're in this.
That is wonderful.

T. Najee-ullah: Allah's put me in it. I wasn't-

L. Mohammed: Yeah, well that's how stuff happens.

T. Najee-ullah: Yeah. I was assistant Imam in D.C., and a sister came and said, "We're
doing this program at Wesley Theological Seminary, I need somebody

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 to come do it." And Imam Yusuf said, "I can't do it." He asked the
other brother, "You want to do it?" "No, I can't do it." "Tariq, what are
you doing? Can you go do this?" And that's how I started doing
interfaith. I wasn't doing it before that. That's when I first started.

L. Mohammed: That's good. That's beautiful. You know what? Talk to Sister
Baseema. You talked to her?

T. Najee-ullah: I haven't talked to her. She went too?

L. Mohammed: She didn't do anything with the Focolare, but she was there and she
used to have the paper because I remember when Imam Mohammed
went to this synagogue. It was very early in his time as leader. She
talks about that. She has worked in interfaith for years. Decades.

T. Najee-ullah: I didn't know that. Sister Baseema or Bahijah?

L. Mohammed: No, Baheja. Did I say Baseema? Who's Baseema? I don't even know
who that is.

T. Najee-ullah: She's a pioneer in D.C. as well.

L. Mohammed: No, I didn't mean Baseema. Bahejah. Yeah, yeah. Bahejah Abdul. I
can't think of it but you know who I'm talking about.

T. Najee-ullah: I know exactly. Yes, ma'am. I'll be down there. I'll be going to talk to
her. I'll be down there for Eid. Thank you so much for your time. I
appreciate it.

L. Mohammed: You're welcome. So how long did it take?

T. Najee-ullah: 48 minutes.

L. Mohammed: Okay. That was good.

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Edited Interview with Imam Ronald Shaheed

September 3, 2016

Location: Milwaukee, WI

Author/Transcription Note: The notation “inaudible” simply means that a sound

obscured what word or phrase was exactly stated in the audio recording.

T. Najee-ullah: I have to ask some questions because this is going to be reviewed by an

internal review board so I have to ask do you consent to this interview being
recorded?

R. Shaheed: Yes, I do.

T. Najee-ullah: How would you like to be identified?

R. Shaheed: Imam Ronald B. Shaheed.

T. Najee-ullah: Where do you reside?

R. Shaheed: I currently reside in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I'm retired just last few weeks,
retired as Imam Sultan Muhammad Masjid and also as director of education
for Clara Muhammad School.

T. Najee-ullah: The rest of these questions are demographic questions and I'm going to get to
the actual interview. This is going to be basically ... feel free to correct or add
anything that you feel is missing. What year were you born and what is your
age?

R. Shaheed: I was born in 1949 in a small town in Florida, Bonifay, Florida. My age is I
just turned 67.

R. Shaheed: I'm very familiar with your father-in-law, Imam Maajid.

T. Najee-ullah: Yes, sir.

R. Shaheed: Very excellent human being. I was an Imam in Tallahassee, Florida, for a
while and we would have these Southern Region Imam's meetings that
included Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, South Carolina, North

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 Carolina, like that. That's how I got to know Imam Maajid. May God forgive
him his shortcomings if he had any, accept his soul in his paradise.

T. Najee-ullah: How long have you been a member of the community? When did you join or
how long have you considered yourself a member of the community?

R. Shaheed: Yeah, I joined in Tampa, Florida. I joined the then Nation of Islam on the
Elijah Muhammad's leadership in 1973. When Imam became the leader in
1975, I saw no problem with transitioning under his leadership.

T. Najee-ullah: Do you consider yourself a pioneer, or are you considered a pioneer in the
community?

R. Shaheed: I guess technically I would be considered a pioneer although I never felt that
way. I felt I was part of a youth movement. Yeah, I guess technically I would
be considered a pioneer.

T. Najee-ullah: Do you have family members or you see yourself as a legacy member of the
community, your family has history in the community or ...

R. Shaheed: No, my family at this point in time, if you're talking about grandparents,
mother, father, brothers and sisters, I'm the only one who became a part of the
community, although my mother applied to her passion. She acknowledged the
... I don't want to say she took shahada, but she acknowledged the veracity of
it, the truthfulness of my move to become a member of the community under
Elijah Muhammad, Imam Mohammed. Nobody in my family formally has
taken shahada except myself.

T. Najee-ullah: Okay, so I'm trying to, and then again this is just ... You're familiar with the
academic process. I have to ask questions. I'm trying to get background
questions on interfaith and then I'm going to, the meat of my interview is
going to be specifically about Imam Muhammad, Pope John Paul II here in a
little bit. You mentioned that your family members are not Muslim, your
relatives. How do you feel about interfaith relationships between Muslims and
Christians and what has your experience been with your family and then we're
going to talk about beyond to get that family before we talk about the ...

R. Shaheed: Well, my grandfather and grandmother, they raised, quote-quote raised me,
although in the south, and maybe even now, even though my grandparents
mostly raised me, I went back and forth between my mother and my
grandparents. If they stayed in the same town, I would end up sleeping in both
places. My mother and her husband, for a long time in my development they
followed the seasons in terms of tomatoes and oranges or whatever in order to,
because you're in northwest Florida but the jobs for African Americans were,
in that time, scarce. They followed the seasons. That meant that they were
away a lot. I ended up with my grandparents a lot.

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 My grandfather was a Baptist, Missionary Baptist, minister. He wasn't a
pastor. He didn't have a church, but a great abiding respect in that small town
because he was a minister. Everybody predicted that I was going to be a
minister like him. I remember that it just was drilled into me. It just seemed a
natural thing that when I converted to Islam I became an imam. It was almost
like something I just had to do because they had drilled that into me.

My family, I don't know what they said when I wasn't around, but my family
was very accepting of me converting. I think part of it was because I was a
rebel. I was different in a lot of ways, went away to college, first person in my
immediate family to go out of state to be educated and to be away from my
family long periods of time. In some ways I guess it was not surprising to them
that I chose a religion that most, including myself, didn't know much about.

Because of that experience and then acceptance, I think that it helped me to

crystallize my view of relationship between Muslims and Christians. All of my
family is still Christian. I don't proselytize. I never did to my family. I never
proselytized to them. I thought that was the best way to do it. When Imam
Mohammed introduced the, for us to consciously promote interfaith dialog, it
was a natural thing for me, a good thing. We're not talking about converting
anybody. We're just talking about sharing with each other our faith experience
and how can we work together to make the world a better place as faith
people. It was easy for me to accept that because of my experience.

T. Najee-ullah: This is, side note, something I wanted to ask you. Are you familiar with when
Imam Mohammed started a formal interfaith ministry because in my research
from 1975 I find he has relationships with churches and he's speaking at
churches or they're speaking. I don't see it as a beginning. I know I found
articles and events in the nineties he said something that he had an initiative,
but I don't see him ... It's always been, from whatever I've found, he's always
been working with interfaith.

R. Shaheed: You're right. From the very beginning it appears that Imam Muhammad was
interested in interfaith dialog. As a matter of fact, early on there was this well
known visit to a synagogue in DC with Rabbi Habermann. That was his name.
They had the big write up in the journal about it. Then shortly thereafter there
was a big meeting with the leader of reform Jewish movement. Then some
meetings with African American Christian leaders in New York, the head of
the Abyssinian Baptist Church. I think in the beginning he modeled interfaith
dialog wherever it's seen. I don't know if you're aware of this, but I think that
Imam had a debate with Jimmy Swaggart.

T. Najee-ullah: I didn't know that.

R. Shaheed: Yes. I think it probably was in Dallas, maybe. I probably have the tape. If I
dug up my tapes, I could find it. He had a ...

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T. Najee-ullah: I found one that he did with not Swaggart. It's another. It's a evangelical. I
can't think of the man's name right now to save my life, but I wrote it down. I
was surprised. I looked him up, he was a televangelist. He wasn't as big as
Jimmy Swaggart, but he had a following.

R. Shaheed: You're aware of the C.R.A.I.D. movement, the Committee to Remove all
Images of the Divine from Worship. C.R.A.I.D. was designed to make people
conscious of how images destroy our humanity, images in religion. Imam shut
it down because they were going too far with it. They were going too hard
with it.

T. Najee-ullah: It's coming back. I saw a table yesterday, somebody pushing a big C.R.A.I.D.
...

R. Shaheed: I don't see the atmosphere that that should have any promise in. We're not in
the position to try to tell people of other religions how they should function.
We're not into trying to convert people who are already converted to a religion.
Imam discouraged that in the latter years of his life. He discouraged that. In
fact, a brother did a publication based on a talk he did at a university in Miami
in 2007 where Imam said we shouldn't be going after people who were already
converted to faith. That's not what we do. The da'wah should not be aimed at
people who profess Christianity or Judaism or whatever.

In a talk he gave at a convention, maybe it was 2004 or something, he said that

he had read an article or maybe he said he saw something on television where
he says so much percentage of people in the United States don't profess a
particular faith. He said, "Now, we reserve the right to go after those people
with da'wah." He said, "But we're not going after people who already
converted to faith." I don't know if that's off the subject.

T. Najee-ullah: No, that's a reflection. That's why my approach and experience is that we'll
always have access to what Muhammad said and just start responding.

R. Shaheed: Now the interfaith thing, where it was really formalized, where the members
of the community ... I can't really say where that ... I guess it was a natural
evolvement, after you see the leader interacting with people from different
faiths, I think it was just a natural consequence, but I do think a lot of religious
communities start approaching us about dialog. Her name is Robina Winbush.
She's an assistant stated clerk for the Presbyterian Church, USA. The stated
clerk is their leadership position. She's assistant stated clerk. Anyway, she
recounts a meeting that occurred in California with Imam Shuaibe and a few
others and the pastor of a Presbyterian church and some others. They had a
dialog several years ... I can't remember the year. It was so excellent,
according to her, that it led here and Reverend Jay Rock, who were then both
in the administration of the Presbyterian Church, USA in Louisville, to
approach Imam Muhammad about having a dialogue.

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 That plus the fact that Imam was already dialoguing with the Focolare in the
Catholic church. They told us, they used that as kind of a model. They knew
about the success of that dialogue and they didn't know whether we should go
like that or give direction but they wanted to have dialogue. Here's the reason
she gave. Reverend Robina Winbush, she said that the reason why
Presbyterian USA wanted to dialogue with our community is because most of
the members of our community under Imam Muhammad have increased
before they felt that we had a perspective that nobody else that they dialogued
with had, that is they're Christians, but we had been Christians before and now
we're Muslim. I remember her saying that to the stated clerk. We were meeting
in his office and I can still see him nodding his head, saying that he agreed
with that. The dialogue they wanted to do with us special because we had a
perspective on Christianity already. Most of our family members were still
Christian.

T. Najee-ullah: You kind of answered some of the questions I was going to ask. These other
interfaith experiences, we're going to talk about the Catholic experience, how
do they compare to other events that you've experienced? Whether religious
events or others. What has been the significance or value of the interfaith
relationships. Again, right now, not talking about the Catholic relationship,
just-

R. Shaheed: Somebody in general-

T. Najee-ullah: In general, has it been beneficial? Has it broadened your perspective or

changed how you think about things? How does it compare to things that you
already experienced?

R. Shaheed: Yeah. Imam Mohammed, I would say his commentary or his leadership was a
natural growth and development out of Elijah Muhammad's leadership in the
sense that ... there's an old saying that we all know that we come into Islam
and we are going to have plenty money-

T. Najee-ullah: Good homes, good friends

R. Shaheed: Friends from all walks of life. Now can you imagine that being said to people
who were descendants of slaves in a country that they said 9000 miles, they
couldn't swim back to where they came from and free and then had to go
through Jim Crow and all those things and the civil rights movement. This was
before the civil rights movement. Can you imagine that being said to those
people and what the expectations were about hey, we really can have a
wonderful life like everybody else in this country. Despite the fact that we're
experiencing racism and all these things. That's the language out of the nation
of Islam. Anybody who was under that language when Imam came along and
actually started showing us how to put that into action, you got to go out. You
got to come out of the walls of the temple and you have to go out in the world

171
 and you have to let people show you that the world has changed and that you
can make a contribution yourself.

That's what Imam ... so I would say his commentary and leadership got us out
of those walls instead of just talking about plenty of money and homes,
friendship from all walks of life. He showed us that the way to do it is to get
out and do it. I saw a document once, and I'll find it for you and try to send it
to you. Imam was explaining what he was doing in going all ... speaking all
over the place. I don't think there was a state in the union he didn't speak in.
There was very few he did if it were because most of the United States ... what
was he doing? He said, "When I'm going out there speaking, I am trying to
address with an anecdote, the poison that's been put out in the atmosphere that
says we can't live our Islamic life fully in this country." He said, "So what I'm
doing is introducing the anecdote to that. That we can live our life fully in this
country."

When you look at the progress that we made under Imam Muhammad and are
still making because of Imam Muhammad's leadership and the continuation of
what Elijah Muhammad was hoping for then yes, the experiences have been
wonderful and religious dialogue is a way that I can ... if I'm dealing with a
Christian person, talking with them, I believe that in dialogue I can fully
express my life as a believer in Islam. I can fully accept them as a believer in
their religion. We don't have to talk about the ... well, I guess you have to talk
about the differences too, but as that leader of Christianity told Ja'far in the
history of the prophet when the Americans were trying to say that they don't
accept Jesus Christ as the son of God or anything. They said, well, explain.
Ja'far explained that all the negative things they used to do before the prophet
came. Treating women as chattel property, all that stuff. He may have said
well, no, we don't see him as the son of God but ...

T. Najee-ullah: We see him as a prophet ...

R. Shaheed: Yeah and they have a sacred position among us. Jesus and his mother, who
was a virgin among us and etc. etc. and so the man stepped up and drew this
little small line and said, "The difference between us and you is this little line
right here. You can stay as long as you want." That's what our life became in
the United States because of Rahm Elijah Muhammad and then Imam
Mohammed. Us actually living in the country. Imam said, "Anywhere his
father lived, anywhere Elijah Muhammad lived, he always kept his property
up. He always cleaned up. He always showed a shining example of where he
was."

That's what we should do and that's what we did under the Imam and it had
resounding results because I'm one of the blessed ones that travel outside of
the country even with the Imam, not just in the country. I saw the kind of deep,
abiding respect these people have for Imam, and by consequence, they have

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 for us. Those lies and everything they told about the African-American and all
this negative crap that went in the culture out there, I believe those people said
that stuff ain't true. I'm looking at African Americans right here. This has got
to be how they are. I saw it in Palestine ...

B. Abdul-Baqi: When we were in Arafat in 1977 for the first hutch the Imam spoke on Arafat.
Everybody that was in that tent who was Arab said this is the best we ever
heard it since the prophet. We can't dispute what he said. He said, "We've been
waiting for him, for you all, to come." You were in all, the ones that the
prophet prophesized to become his leaders.

R. Shaheed: Yeah. I had a brother from Pakistan tell me that he was a leader of a Tablighi
group that came when I was in Tallahassee Florida. I remember the situation
we were outside and he was washing up at a faucet and I'm saying well I'm
going to ask him questions. He said, "Well, you know brother you must know
we don't come to the United States to do dawah, we only come to ask to speak
to those people who have kind of fallen away from their religion. Try to get
them to come back." He used the term we, he said, "We recognize that there's
leadership in the west." He's talking about Imam. He told me that. I didn't ask
him. He said, "No, it's understood there is leadership in the west. We don't
come to mess with that." I thought about it when he said that because wasn't
that the time that Mawdudi was there? Mawdudi's the one that started the
Tablighi thing. Mawdudi said the same thing.

For a long time there have been leaders who recognize that Islam was going to
be renewed from the west. There would be a thinking ... you know I asked
Imam the last time we met with him, August 21, 2008. We were at a late lunch
with him and I said, let me quote this, forgive me if I don't quote it exactly like
he said. I said, "When one of the Ramadan sessions, maybe it was a couple
years ago you said that ... and I said Brother Imam if I'm not saying it correct,
please correct me, you said something like there hasn't been a man like you
since Muhammad the prophet." Imam he didn't say anything at first, I sat
there, "Oh, hell. I said it wrong." I was getting ready to get busted. He said,
"No." That's the first thing he said, he said, "No, there have been others but the
world hasn't been ready to support them like they're ready to support me right
now." That's what he said and I agree 100%.

The mind, the emphasis, the view toward the destiny that Imam brought. The
world is ready to accept that now. Just like he was saying about Syria. How
they recognized that you all had some kind of special view or approach and
they readily accepted that and wanted to imitate it.

T. Najee-ullah: Exactly, I know what you mean. We're walking around, you know you don't
realize I mean, you're in another country, you don't realize you're being
watched. Okay let me say to you, you are Warith Deen. I said, "What?" He
said, "Yeah, we met your leader, he told us all about you." He said, "How is

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 school going?" Asking these questions, are you on the job? I was like, whoa!
I'm not by the school, you know.

R. Shaheed: Listen now this is kind of funny. I told Imam this. We went to Palestine right?
Guests of Yasser Arafat and our present with Arafat. So this one day they took
us to Al-Aqsa mosque for Jummah and there was so many people there that
Imam, they had him, he was in there but we had to make our prayer outside
because there was no room. Okay so when the prayer was finished the host
imams and whatever they said something in Arabic to the crowd and then they
asked Imam Mohammed to speak and then they translated for him. Imam, you
know how he was, he wasn't going to diminish the khutbah the brother gave so
Imam might have spoke 5 minutes or less. I can't remember what he said but
when Imam finished speaking there was this big uproar. I reasoned that they
were cheering because of what he said, being from America.

Now the guys, they come and they get the brothers outside and they going to
take us where the Imam is. Once again, it's very crowded so they escorting me
and the brothers right and we get halfway in the mosque and they going to take
us out the side door. Before we go out the side door this big crowd bum rushed
us right? I'm saying, "Oh, my God what's going on?" They were happy. This is
no lie. One brother, they were hugging us and everything. This one brother
grabbed me, hugged me, kissed me right in my eye, my glasses and all. I tell
you, he kissed me. I told him man and we just had a laugh about it.

Brother all over Palestine we experienced that. We'd be walking near the
market and we were passing by this house one time they came out of the
house, "American!" We had to go in their house and sit down and talk with
them and eat fruit and everything. That was the spirit everywhere we went like
that brother. They had high school bands playing for us and giving us flowers.
It was unbelievable but it's quiet I mean seeing him on there and all these
things.

I'll say this last thing, I know we got off ... one time Imam, I was working at a
university in Kentucky called Berea College and Imam was invited to speak.
When Imam gave his talk he said, "You know, I was just talking to some of
my colleagues, some of my associates about our work here in America as
Muslims and everything, former slaves and everything." He said, "And we
were talking about how people try to the view the work we do as not important
and I said to them yes, that's true but maybe that's our lot in life. Maybe we
will never be credited with the work we've done. We just have to trust in God
and know that God sees it." I never forgot that brother because it's still true.
They never talk about us all this going on.

I thought it was good too, in a sense, because all those people who got
informed about what direction to go in by Joseph from the scripture. They go
out there and they do their thing and everybody forget Joseph in prison. When

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 the time came and they needed Joseph's input, they all remember him but he
had to tell them to check those women out who cut their hands. So I just take it
as maybe this is God's protection that we're not being mentioned.

T. Najee-ullah: I think so. I think, my grandmother, 98 years old, passed last week, couple
weeks ago. I just came back from her funeral last week, last weekend I was
there. They recounted her history. I had heard it but you know, we're able to
trace our one side back to the plantation. They were Nigerian people. They
chartered a boat in North Carolina they had to dig out a sound. Now a sound is
not a canal, a sound is like 70 miles wide, not 70 it was miles wide and in the
process I want to say they were from 80 to 17 and everyone else died in the
process of working too hard. So out of 17 only 5 of those had children that
survived. Only one of those lines was complete enough and that was my
grandmother.

When I look at her and I see all these things and I see a lot ... how these people
didn't survive and prayed for a better future. It's not a accident that we're here
and it's now ... even I look at my grandmother, the things she did. She was
mentored by W.E.B. Dubois, she and my grandfather. They went to Columbia
law school and Columbia University back in the forties. They went out to
California to pioneer the NAACP but they went to Howard Thurman's church
out there and they were taught-

R. Shaheed: Howard Thurman's church?

T. Najee-ullah: Yeah. They were taught that there's one God and many ways to worship Him.
That's how my mother and my aunt and my uncle became ministers because of
them teaching them. Howard Thurman teaches there's one God and many ways
to worship Him. That's how I'm Muslim. That's how my mom came to Islam.

R. Shaheed: Have you read his autobiography?

T. Najee-ullah: No sir, I heard about it when I was at Morehouse that's it.

R. Shaheed: Brother he recounts in there meeting Gandhi and when he met Gandhi, he
wanted to meet him but he couldn't work the plans out. It just so happens it
worked out. He said when he met with Gandhi, you know the first thing
Gandhi said to him? He said, "We have studied the situation of Negro people
in America and we wondered why introduction of Islam to them hasn't been
tried." That's what Gandhi said. Thurman reported that in his book he said, we
think that Islam would be the best tool for the advancement of black people in
America because Islam doesn’t accept any racists. He said Gandhi said even
more than Hinduism, Buddhism and all the other religions, Islam doesn't do it
... He said, "Even my own religion doesn't compare to Islam in terms of
eliminating racism." To me, that would explain to some extent why Thurman

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 felt comfortable because if he didn't like that he wouldn't have put it in his
autobiography. It's in there.

T. Najee-ullah: My grandmother would tell me all the time, when I went to Syria, everything.
She would ask me, "Make sure you go see Paul's Church of Damascus. Tell
me about it, I never been there. She talked to me but she would say, she would
always recount sermons from Howard Thurman. She would say, "He had
people from the east that would come talk to us and he would say they weren't
Christian but they believe in God." This was back in San Francisco. This was
in the late forties, early fifties. She was saying that they would talk to us. She
said, "That's the only church I ever felt good in since my father." Her father
was an A.M.E. minister in North Carolina. She said, "Since the churches that
we grew up in that's the only one I felt like home." She was a C.M.E. member
when she passed but she didn't talk about her C.M.E. minister she always
talked about Howard Thurman. She said, "You sound like you were at the
church." I said, "No, I just started saying I recognize that it's not ... we're just
playing out the script, God has this thing planned out -"

R. Shaheed: Yeah. I believe that's true. Even myself man, I look back and I see the hand of
God. I ain't know it then. I see the hand of God. Now I'm going to tell you
something. Imam, he was a strong believer in signs. He told me that. He said it
but he also told me that personally. He reiterate that Imam told him that. He
said, "But it's just for you, it will be a sign. When I see it all I usually say is
say is Alhamdulillah, I thank you Allah. It's Allah telling you that he's with
you. Every one of us has that I believe.

T. Najee-ullah: I believe in signs too, yes sir.

R. Shaheed: You know, Imam said the first way that God communicates to you and me is
through signs. Ayat means sign and so the signs in the creation is the language
God is speaking but we have to be taught how to read. He said, "That's why
they can't master Egyptian wisdom because they put hieroglyphics, the signs
and pictures. They're still trying to decipher it." Go ahead brother.

T. Najee-ullah: It's okay. I'm going to read something here briefly about research and then ask
you questions about it. I'm going to ask something because you already gave
me something that I didn't have. Imam Muhammad went to Rome and met
with Pope John Paul II at the Vatican in October 1996. There were a series of
meetings that preceded this first trip between Earl El-Amin, Eric El-Amin, and
Imam Earl Abdul-Malik Muhammad with members of the Vatican. Imam
Mohammad initially met with Cardinal Arinze in Baltimore in 1995 at a
program entering his dialogue between Muslims and Catholics. Then
Mohammed met afterword with Cardinal Keeler who served as the Archbishop
of Baltimore at that time.

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 In Rome, Imam Mohammed and his delegation met with several Catholic
communities, the community with which Imam Mohammed developed an
ongoing relationship was the Focolare. Imam Mohammed developed a deep
and respectful friendship with Chiara Lubich, the leader of the Focolare
movement. In 1997, Chiara Lubich of the Focolare movement spoke with the
aid of an Italian translator, at the Malcolm Shabazz Masjid in Harlem, New
York with Imam Warith Deen Mohammed and Imam Ezekiel Pasha
moderated. Now here also, there are two things that have come up that I need
to track and I have my notes. I have that there was a speaking engagement by
Chiara Lubich in Washington DC.

R. Shaheed: Yes. It was called, I'll get it for you. I may have it in this package here, I can
look through it. It's Faith Communities Together, but I'll find it. The first
meeting like that was in San Antonio, Texas. Where all the Focolare and
Catholic in that area and the Muslims under Imam Mohammed's leadership
came together for really a sort of convention but I think it was only one day.
Then it was in D.C. The first one in San Antonio, Chiara she wasn't there. She
came to the one in D.C.

T. Najee-ullah: I think, was it the nineties?

R. Shaheed: Yeah. No, no, I think it was 2000. I'll get it for you I have it in here.

T. Najee-ullah: I might have been at that. I might have been at that.

R. Shaheed: Yeah, I think it was 2000.

T. Najee-ullah: Yeah because I've been at something where the Imam and Chiara Lubich were
there.

R. Shaheed: I'm pretty sure that was it.

T. Najee-ullah: That was the only one I could have attended was 2000-

R. Shaheed: Yeah, I think it was 2000 but I got it here in these documents somewhere. I
can get it for you. They had Focolare from all over the world there because I
met a lot of them. Interesting enough, Imam Shaheed, this person's from the
Philippines, I never seen them ... but they have that kind of communication.
Now I think this is God's way of promoting what Imam represented around the
world because the Focolare, they're hooked up. They had these talks ... they
still have them ... where it's a phone hookup and every group of Focolare
around the world would give input on what's happening in their neck of the
woods, so to speak. Quite naturally, they would know what's going on in
America because that's what they do. They even know names and everything.
That's how extensive that dialogue has been. Go ahead.

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T. Najee-ullah: I have Imam Mohammed again traveled to Rome in October of 1999 but you
said there was another trip between 96 and 99.

R. Shaheed: Yeah, 1998 and it was called ... I can't give it to you in Italian but it's loosely
translated Assembly of Muslim Friends of the Focolare. That's what it was
titled. Then by the Muslims who were in dialogue with the Focolare from all
parts of the world Algeria, Libya, wherever there were Muslims. Not just our
association but Muslims from around the world came so it was the Focolare
and the Muslims. They also did it with Jews, they did it with Buddhists, they
did it with Hindu. They had these different meetings. They usually did them
once every four years, something like that. This particular year was the first
year ... we had been there in 1996 when Imam met Pope John Paul and then on
the next to the last day we were there John Borelli arranged for us to meet with
the Focolare at their international headquarters in Castel Gandolfo. Most of us
didn't know who the Focolare were.

Imam, at the 96 convention, which was in White Plains, New York. Imam
took a small group of Imams and went to Hyde Park, which is not far away,
and met with the Focolare. This was during the time when Imam was elected
as an international president of the Religions for Peace international
organization. In one of their international meetings, I can't remember where it
was, might have been in Poland or some place like that ... he met with Natalia
and she was the second convert. She was the first convert in Chiara Lubich's
movement, Natalia. He met her because I think either Natalia or Chiara was
also president of the Religions for Peace and they elected Imam that same
year. Imam observed it and then Natalia told her people in the United States,
"You all need to get to know W. Deen Mohammed."

I can't remember if Imam contacted them or they contacted him but he ended
up going to their place of residence in Chicago. They gave him this book about
Chiara Lubich's life called, "Let It All be One". And Imam took it home and
read it and he reported that after he read it, he thought that we should get to
know them better. They were told to get to know us better and that Imam
wanted to get to know them better. He came back to that house a short while
later. He brought one of his daughters and he brought some others with and
they had a big conversation. That was how it all started. Then of course the
convention where he took them out before the community.

R. Shaheed: It's two blocks away, the National House. The one at Farrakhan bought.

T. Najee-ullah: The National House?

R. Shaheed: The National House, yeah, the place that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad
lived in. That was actually constructed.

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R. Shaheed: I met the architect. I went to the first Islamic conference at Harvard. They
invited Imam. They invited Sherman Jackson. They invited Yvonne Haddad.
They invited Amina McCloud, there was several of them there and Imam
Mohammed. They had a conference there and I met the man who designed the
National House. The reason I remember it is because the other day ... we're
moving to another apartment, I'm going through papers and he wrote me a
letter and he sent me a picture of the original design for the National House.
He was at some school in Texas. What's the school in Lubbock, Texas?

T. Najee-ullah: Texas Tech.

R. Shaheed: Texas Tech. That's where he is. He was an architect and he designed it way
back in the sixties, maybe late sixties they designed it. He showed me the
original drawing of it. It has an interesting history but Imam, he didn't stay
there weeks. He was gone. He said he couldn't live in that museum.

R. Shaheed: He made a lot of people upset in the family because he was taking away their
royal digs. They didn’t like that.

R. Shaheed: Good homes-Plenty of money, friends in all walks of life. They thought that
was it, we've arrived. This is what they were talking about.

T. Najee-ullah: Imam traveled again to Rome in October 99 and visited with Pope John Paul
II. He delivered a testimony and prayer at the closing ceremony Vatican City
at the inter-religious assembly before the central committee for the great
jubilee of the year 2000 the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue. The
theme was towards a culture of dialogue. So doctor Borelli wrote about this in
October 1999 at the inter-religious assembly convened in Rome that Cardinal
Arinze is a preparatory event for the celebration of the great jubilee year 2000,
Imam Mohammed offered prayers on the steps of St. Peter's Basilica during
the closing service. I was told that it was the first time that a Muslim had
offered prayer in any formal way in the precincts of St. Peter's an American
Muslim prays in a public service at a central spot in the Vatican. I was
pinching myself.

He is writing and recounting events so the question I have, did you travel as
part of Imam Mohammed's delegation to either of these trips to Rome and
were you in attendance at Masjid Malcolm Shabazz.

R. Shaheed: I was not in attendance at Masjid Malcom Shabazz. I did travel to all those
events in Rome except the Imam was invited, which I didn't know about it, he
was invited to St. Francis of Assisi. I finally went there by a subsequent trip
but he was invited along with a few others basically by Pope John Paul to
participate in prayer at Assisi. That was the other time Imam went there at the
invitation of the Pope.

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T. Najee-ullah: Do you know when this was? When this happened?

R. Shaheed: Well, it was after, I'm pretty sure it was after 1999. It might have been ... I
don't know. I don't even know if it was in the journal. Imam certainly didn't
promote publicly that event but we found out later. I don't even think it was in
the journal.

T. Najee-ullah: I have to see if that's even in the public documents that Doctor Borelli shares
with me so I don't even know if it's there. He's given-

R. Shaheed: It may not be but I know he went. Yeah, I was at the other events. As a matter
of fact when the inter-religious assembly occurred there was a simultaneous
meeting with the Muslim Friends of the Focolare. Imam asked me to
participate in the series of meetings between these 200 or more religious
leaders at the Vatican and then the Friends of the Focolare meeting was going
on so Imam asked me to represent him at the assembly of the religious leaders.
It was very formal. They would pick us up in buses and we stayed at places for
us to say and they would pick us up and bring us to assembly. We had these
series of breakout meetings that they would have preliminary recessions and
everything. That went on for about, maybe three days. Then the culminating
event, I didn't see Imam in the group again until they all brought us to the
assembly and Imam spoke.

As a matter of fact, a brother and I, when things kind of settled down with the
assembly, we negotiated the train and bus system and found our way up a hill
to Castel Gandolfo. That was interesting trying to catch a train we don't know
where we're going. Yeah, I was there.

T. Najee-ullah: How did you feel about this experience? Was it what you expected? How
would you compare it to other religious places you had visited?

R. Shaheed: I think the meeting at the Vatican for the inter-religious assembly in 1999 was
probably the most profound experience I had because of all of those different
religious leaders and everything that was there, plus the Catholics. I think there
was in the audiences, maybe, they said, they felt quarter of a million people in
the audience. When you look out all you could see was people out there in
Vatican Square. Plus they had Vatican television was filming it and they were
shooting it out across the world.

That was most impressive. Yeah. It was a good day. It was a excellent day. I
mean, you couldn't have asked for a better weather and the spirit for interfaith
was there. You got all these religious, more than 22 religious leaders from
across the world. You even had Native American tribal leaders who were there
from the United States. Of course, Pope John Paul, he was an older man and in
the eighties and he had Parkinson's and of course he sit there quietly and the
only time that he got up was when Imam finished talking. Imam was the only

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 one who went over to him and he kissed him on his right cheek I think and
then on his left shoulder. He kissed him on his right cheek and you could tell
they was talking, they were talking and then they shook hands and hugged
each other then Imam kissed him on his right shoulder, then he went back to
his seat.

T. Najee-ullah: With you?

R. Shaheed: No, and of course the Dalai Lama was there, Chiara Lubich. All the great
leaders they were there. Religious leaders. I think it was a ... to me it had
world implications for future world. That's how I felt. I felt that this was a
picture of what it could be and should be like. Respect for all religions.
Respect for all attempts to understand the reality of God that the religions
represent and even though it was in the Vatican, it wasn't a quote-quote
Catholic thing. It was a religious thing.

T. Najee-ullah: What difference has this experience made in your life? What does it mean to
you? How do you value it?

R. Shaheed: I value it as something that I experienced that I can share with other people of
faith. In other words, I have something to say to other people of faith because I
saw this. I don't know, it gives you confidence I think when you have interfaith
dialogue. If you've had a profound experience it makes you comfortable to do
something along those lines. In this case, I had a comfortable international
religious experience so I have something to say to people in America, or
wherever I go because there's not been anything else like that that I'm aware of
anywhere in the world since then. So it's profound, it's overwhelming but also
whoever participated I believe should have confidence to speak to what the
relationship should be between people of faith from here on out. That's how I
see it.

T. Najee-ullah: Did you learn anything different about interfaith relationships as a result of
this experience?

R. Shaheed: Yes I did. I learned that the common people that all these religious leaders
represent, too often they get left out because they didn't have that experience
and I'm not sure that those leaders go back and share it with them. If they don't
share it with them, then for the common people, there was no advancement in
understanding how their religion prepares them for the destiny that God is
granting the human being three. I believe that, as Imam taught us, that there is
a human destiny. There is a destiny for the group and the picture of it for us is
the Hajj. A one destiny before God for all human beings, no matter what the
race, the gender and everything. I think that too often religious leaders ... I
experienced that when I had these different leaders and everything.

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 It's however needed but the question is what is it going to be for those
common people back in those different countries? When I got a chance to
speak and I spoke like three minutes, I said something similar to that. I don't
know how it was received, it was on my heart and I said, "Leaders, with all our
regalia and whatever, posturing how is it benefitting those common people in
our different communities we come from? Because if it isn't then we're
betraying this experience." I feel I learned that as great as that was we got to
find a way to transfer that understanding so that people can be free. Be what
God created them to be.

T. Najee-ullah: Has what you experienced impacted, you kind of answered this. Some of these
questions are tailored to ... I don't know how you're going to answer them. I'm
trying to get points and analysis from you so I ask similar questions different
ways. Has what you experienced impacted how you see religion or if not how
you view current events or politics or moral values of society? Like equality or
freedom or justice? This experience has it broadened or narrowed your
viewpoint with regard to these broader values or has it changed your ideas of
thinking since having this experience?

R. Shaheed: Yeah. I think it broadened my perspective of what religion could be, or could
become. I remember that when we were ... I came to understand from Imam
Mohammed's teaching that the number six represents freedom and in 1996
when we were walking with Imam Mohammed up the hill. Imam was a special
guest of Pope John Paul so it was Imam and five imams. Imam Kareem
Hassam, Imam Earl El-Amin, Imam Earl Abdul Malik, myself. There was five
Imam's

T. Najee-ullah: Was Earl's brother Eric with you all too?

R. Shaheed: Eric, that's right, okay. So it's five Imam's and Imam Mohammed. That makes
six. As I was walking up a hill, when the pope has his Wednesday audience it's
packed. People come from all over the world and that's every Wednesday and
it was packed. Here's these six black men walking up going to have a seat on
the same level as the pope up there where he has his canopy. I said to myself, I
said, "You know what, it's my understanding that at least one pope blessed the
ship that was coming to take our ancestors to become slaves in the Americas.
Now here is six, representing freedom, black men, descendants of those slaves,
walking up the hill to be in dialogue with the leader of the Catholic church.
That wasn't lost to me is what I'm saying.

It was a profound experience to me. What really brought it home to me was I

looked at the people as we were coming up the hill and I saw the love and
respect on their face. I saw some people were crying. I still remember that.
They were crying tears and I don't know what they knew because I didn't get a
chance to talk to them but you can tell when people either appreciate

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 something you're doing or not. I saw appreciation on these people's faces and
like I said some of them were crying.

I think that it was a kind of a closure thing. Imam maybe uses, talk about the
freedom movement and how it's continuing. Frederick Douglas, Harriet
Tubman, Denmark Veasey, Nat Turner, Booker T. Washington, Frederick
Douglas, all of them represented contributions to the freedom movement and
he connected Elijah Muhammad and himself in that freedom movement. For
us to be in Rome with the leader of the Catholic church and to get that kind of
reception, talking about our leader, it was kind of a closure thing. I thought
about it. I think it informs my thinking in my relationship because you know,
Imam said that we live in a Christian country right? Now wouldn't it make
sense for us to have good relationships with our Christian neighbors? Doesn't
events like that help us have that?

T. Najee-ullah: Wonderful. Are there any insights that you have into why Imam Mohammed
pursued this dialogue.

R. Shaheed: Yeah, it's funny you say ... yeah. Before meeting with Pope John Paul and long
before the meeting with Chiara Lubich and the Focolare, Imam had said on
more than one occasion that he wanted to meet the pope in Rome. He wanted
to meet him. He wanted to carry the name of Elijah Muhammad in those
venues. My thinking is that he wanted to establish once and for all that God
had intervened with his father, with Mr. Farrakhan and with the condition that
African Americans were in at that time. Hating their own skin color and
having realized that I may be one of the main ones to bring a thinking to black
people that the should be proud of their color. All of this was part of that. I lost
my thought. What was the question?

T. Najee-ullah: Do you have any insights into why Imam Mohammed pursued the dialogue?

R. Shaheed: Yeah and so him putting out in the atmosphere that he wanted to meet with the
pope I think was his way of saying, as I said before, addressing this whole idea
that we can not fully live the fullness of our religion in the west, in America or
wherever it is in the west. This whole thing of the east versus west and the
west is the enemy of Islam and all of that, Imam didn't believe that. He didn't
accept that. I think all of his leadership was showing us that we can live our
life in America and we can contribute to the greatness of America. He felt and
he said that there was no better place on the earth for us to live our religion
than America. I think that's why he really was promoting that meeting and
dialogue.

T. Najee-ullah: What do you think his intentions were? I think you kind of answered that.
What do you think Imam Mohammed hoped would result from these
dialogues?

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R. Shaheed: He wanted a picture. He wanted a picture to be presented to the world of him
embracing Pope John Paul and the Catholics. He wanted that picture to go
around the world. He knew that if he did that, the pope being the leader of the
Catholic world, it would make its rounds in the Catholic circle but it would
also make its rounds outside. Let it be known that Christians are not
automatically our enemies. Jews are not automatically our enemies. Just
because a person is Jew that doesn't make them our enemy.

One time we were in a hotel, I wanted to say it was somewhere in Florida. It

was after he had already met Pope John Paul so somebody said, "Imam you
know there are people, leaders in the Islamic world don't like that you shook
hands with the Pope, joining hands with the Pope. They say you're joining
hands with the big Satan." Imam said, "Yeah. I'm aware of that. That's why I
wish there had been a picture of me kissing him." I will bust this up. I will bust
... that's what he said, he said, "Yeah. I hope it had been a picture of me
kissing." The next time he met him, he kissed him. Kissed him on his right
cheek and then kissed him on his left shoulder.

That was to let them know we ain’t following that stuff you all trying to
follow. You all following something that's been put in place all down there.
Uh-uh. We're following the way to the human destiny. He ain't just talking
about ... God is a God of everybody see? He is a God of just black folk uh-uh,
I ain’t going to follow that God, the black God you know? Well we tried that,
it don't work.

R. Shaheed: They're still trying.

R. Shaheed: When I was growing up I had this man he was blind, he taught me a lot. I used
to spend a lot of time with him and his favorite saying was may God bless
them and the undertaker dress them.

T. Najee-ullah: I'm wrapping up now, I have a few questions left. What did Imam
Mohammed's meeting at the Vatican with Pope John Paul II mean to you?

R. Shaheed: One thing it meant that the things Imam had pointed us to God had blessed
them to find fruition because he had started the interfaith dialogue many years
before and I know there's many what the Christians call doubting Thomases.
Thomas was a disciple that doubted that Jesus Christ had returned according to
the Bible. There are a lot of doubting Thomases among us that the methods
Imam was using to advance our presence in the world and to share what we
have wasn't working. I think the meeting with Pope John Paul was proof that it
was working.

I got to tell you this story this anecdotal report. When we went to the Vatican
in 96 we met with various Vatican officials and one of the leaders with the
pope's press office, Doctor, his name was Joaquin Navarro-Vales that was his

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name. He was from Spain. He was a medical doctor before he became pope's
press officer. We met in this big area where the pope would receive reports
and everything. He was just as plain as his job and we could ask him
questions. He was standing up by the big stage and we was sitting down with
Imam in the chairs, the first row talking, talking. Somehow Louis Farrakhan's
name came up. Somebody said how does the Vatican view Mr. Farrakhan, et
cetera? So Dr. Navarro-Vale said, "Well, I'll tell you this way. This is the way
we view it. Mr. Farrakhan is a news maker. Imam W. Deen Mohammed is a
history maker."

That's how I view it. That was history. His recent history was also history that
I believe is going to unfold and people in the future are going to be writing and
talking about these occurrences and their value for where human society has
advanced. Chiara Lubich was a white woman leading a group of white women
in the Catholic church. That movement ended up to be not just women, but
men too and got all races across the world involved in. She joined hands with
W. Deen Mohammed who led a group that used to be blackness and they say
all white people was devils. Right? Now W. Deen Mohammed and Chiara
Lubich are gracing as a picture of how men and women could respect each
other, how different races could respect and how different nationalities, all of
that.

I said something similar to this in Germany with Imam sitting there

representing him. It was an assembly of about 200-300 young people from all
over Europe and I was explaining this to them. Almost exactly what I said
about the races and sexes and nationalism, religious intolerance. His
embracing her represent all of that and when I finished saying that they stood
up and gave a standing ovation. They wouldn't sit down. They just kept
applauding. I kept touching my heart and saying I recognize it so they could
stop applauding. They kept applauding.

The next day we're at breakfast with the leaders of the group and they said
Imam Shaheed, we want to talk about the standing ovation yesterday. I said,
"Okay, what?" They said now you know that traditionally we don't give
standing ovations. As a matter of fact since we established this institution,
people living here, there's only been one other standing ovation, and that was
when our leader, 25 years ago, spoke and they stood up, standing ovation.
They said there hadn't been any standing ovations since then. These were
leaders, young people from all over Europe.

I'll just end it by saying Imam always talked to us about hope of the destiny.
He told us one time, he said that the destiny is a place you're going to reach
after much travel, right? He said, "But if you don't know where you're going,
how do you know when you got there? If you get on a train in Chicago and say
you're going to travel to Los Angeles but if you don't know what Los Angeles
look like you can get off in St. Louis, thinking you in Los Angeles. If you're
traveling a road to the destiny, you must know what the destiny is." What is

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 the destiny? The destiny is a place where all human beings find that this is
where I'm supposed to be.

He said a picture of it is a Hajj. He said when you get to the Hajj the reason
why you say “Labayk Allahuma Labayk”, here I am oh God, here I am
because you recognize this is where you were trying to go all the time. What's
at the Hajj? He said "A Hajj is a global family reunion. You got people every
part of the world there." He said, "That's a picture of the destiny." All human
beings have reached their purpose before God that they were created for and
that's where we going. Not black destiny, not the Muslim destiny, not the
Christian destiny, not European destiny, the destiny of the human person that
God created. If God blessed people who were brought here to be slaves to help
somebody else reach their manifest destiny. Horace Greeley and them guys
and it turns out that they brought us here and now we're here to help meet the
destiny for the human person, isn't that a blessing from God?

T. Najee-ullah: Only God can do that.

R. Shaheed: There you go. There you go. That's, to me, sums up what Imam Mohammed
was all about. You can focus on him as a individual person if you want to but
El-Islam is not about my Islam or your Islam. It's about Islam as God
understands for all human beings. This is what we became a part of. Now you
come into it and you try to make Islam just for black folk or just for Americans
or just for Arabs whatever I think that's the wrong approach. Imam
Mohammed was blessed by God to see that. Over a series of many years, over
our thinking if we were willing to accept it to be in the best position to see
Islam as for all people.

Like he said a person may not ever say that they're Muslim but if they, theyself
that Muslims have something to offer for the final destiny should we want
more than that? According to the prophet, the prophet saw all the inhabitants
of paradise and he saw followers of Moses, followers of Jesus right? I tell this
sometimes before Christian groups and they always laugh. I said, "But we
believe he saw more Muslims there then ..." Then I say, "I'm sure that you feel
the same way too. There are many more Christians in heavens of the paradise
than Muslims."

That's that competition thing that God calls us to strive in the real God toward
all that is good. We ain't trying to trip up Christians because you know there
was a thing in the Olympics where one of the women from the United States
she couldn't hand off her baton because the Brazilian runner-

T. Najee-ullah: Tripped her.

R. Shaheed: Thank you.

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T. Najee-ullah: Yes sir.

R. Shaheed: So the rule says you can't get in somebody else's way. This should be true for
religion. Don't try to trip up Christians or Jews. No, run harder than they're
running because their running makes you run hard and Imam taught us that's
the way we're supposed to see religious efforts. You'll hear some people,
they'll say as a little dialogue I found a way to be a better Christian and then
the Muslims say, "Hey, I appreciate my Al-Islam better because I had this
dialogue. I think that's the end result of what all this is about. We become
more focused in our faith. Become a better, you know.

T. Najee-ullah: I think you answered this because I was going to ask you what does the
meeting with Chiara Lubich mean but you answered that too. The last few
questions have something else that came up in a previous interview I wanted
to ask you. In your opinion were these dialogues successful? Why or why not?
Were they effective?

R. Shaheed: Yes. They were effective, excellent, all of that. I say that because we see
results of it. For example I told you off, I wasn't being recorded but earlier in
the week we get a call that a member of the Focolare was coming in on the
train here in Milwaukee. There are new leaders in Chicago and they took that
as an opportunity to meet with us. They came to the school, we showed them
around the school and then we went to the coffee shop that's right across the
street from where the train comes in and we sat down and we had a
conversation.

There was two women from Korea, there was a woman from Italy, there was a
woman from Brazil and there was a woman from Portugal. It was just a
beautiful circumstance. That's what is the end result of these dialogues and the
work of people like Pope John Paul, Chiara Lubich, Imam W. Deen
Mohammed and others that it's almost like God has ordered that this is where
it's going to go. It's so natural for human beings to just sit out ... You know a
few years ago we were bringing Imam to Viterbo College in Lacrosse,
Wisconsin and he was going to dialogue with Bishop Raymond Burke. You
may know him recently because he was the man that said if a Catholic does
abortion or whatever they shouldn't get sacrament. They were criticized and
everything.

Bishop Burke, he was the Bishop in Lacrosse, Wisconsin, Lacrosse diocese.

Right after we went to Palestine with Yasser Arafat, Imam came to a dialogue
with Bishop Burke and in preparation for that we were meeting with ... Viterbo
used to be a women's college, Catholic school. I remember Sister Anita, I can't
remember her last name. Sister Anita and I were talking and she says, "You
know Imam Shaheed, a few years ago a Catholic wouldn't be dialoguing with a
Muslim. We wouldn't even be dialoguing with Presbyterians or Baptists or

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 anything. We just didn't do that. You would be frowned on if you had that kind
of dialogue. It was just a few years earlier, like ten years prior to that."

The world has changed and the human being is now ready to dialogue and talk
with each other, and share because I may never visit Savannah or I may never
visit Washington D.C. but if you come from there, you can share with me
about Savannah and about Washington D.C. in ways that I would never even
read in a book. That's what dialogue does between human beings. It gives us a
chance to share our experiences and each one of us walk away more
knowledgeable and preparing to function as human beings should function
than we were before we met and talked. It's an educational, spiritual kind of
experience that can't be had any other way.

T. Najee-ullah: So these two questions I'm going to ask you if you could quantify or qualify
the benefit in some type of measurement, how would you describe it? Another
example would be if you could rate this experience on a scale of 1 to 10, with
10 being the most meaningful, 1 being the least meaningful or impactful, how
would you rate it?

R. Shaheed: Yeah, I would say 10. Sure. Like I said to me, it's like when a pebble hits the
water and the vibration goes out and touches every part of the water. You don't
see it. These experiences of dialogue and interaction have had that kind of
effect. I actually went to a meeting in D.C., that meeting in D.C. I think it was
2000 and I was standing somewhere in the crowd and somebody yelled,
"Imam Shaheed!" I looked around, I'm looking for somebody I know.
Eventually it was a Filipino Focolare member who had seen something on film
or something, had seen me at the Vatican or somewhere with the Imam, maybe
in Rome, whatever. She knew my name. She came and embraced me like she
had known me all her life.

That was the first such experience but it happened so many times that day.
You would think, here's a young man who grew up in segregation, little small
town and was among the first group that went to integrated school and got
called the N-word every day would end up in a position like that in another
part the world or another part of the country it's unbelievable. Only God could
do it I believe. There's a passage from the Koran that says and you were on the
brink of the pit of fire and God saved you from it, and you were enemies and
God joined your hearts in love. That's a powerful statement of God in the
Koran. You were enemies and God joined your hearts in love for each other.

To me, that's the substance of these dialogues and I think it will continue. I
think it was supposed to happen and I think God is in control of it and if you
could call it ... you know they'll say in conversation, MR. Shaheed, that's a can
of worms you just opened. What they mean is now the worms are going
everywhere, they can't control. I think if there's an element that one of the key
races divide it, religions divide it, etc., etc. The gig is up. Even Mr. Drum is in

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 the church today in Detroit, black church. Speaking humbly and reading from
something prepared. Yep. So that's powerful stuff brother.

T. Najee-ullah: I have one last question, I have two things that I wanted to ... well, I'll ask the
last question and then I'll tell you two things that came up in a previous
interview that I wanted to ask you, you know, have more information. Closing
questions are, did you learn anything else from this experience that you'd like
to share or comment?

R. Shaheed: Anything else? No, except that I enjoyed the interaction with different people
from different countries. I've always enjoyed ... my first roommate when I was
in college was from Ethiopia and I still remember all the things that came to
me in that experience. This dialogue has taken us all across the world, all
across the United States and meeting all kind of people. All races, all religions
and we didn't even talk about the Presbyterian thing but we dialogued with
Presbyterians for four years.

We would come together before Imam died, they laid out the plans for it
because we had two meetings with Presbyterian leaders to set up the dialogue
and when Imam passed away they contacted me, said, "Well, Imam Shaheed,
you think we should go ahead with this now that he ..." I said, "I think he'd
expect us to go ahead." A few weeks after Imam died we had our first meeting
in Chicago. We met, and we would meet for three or four days and we would
have dialogue between ... we had like seven, eight Presbyterian members and
we had seven or eight Muslim members. This was the core group that was
going to meet all the time.

On the next to the last day we invited the Presbyterians and the members of
Imam Mohammed's association into this big meeting. We had lunch or dinner
and we'd just talk. We did that in Chicago. We would do that every six months
for four years. We did it Chicago, we did it in Indianapolis, we did it in
Louisville, we did it in St. Louis, we did it in Atlanta. In Atlanta we had it at
the school there, the seminary there.

T. Najee-ullah: In St Louis?

R. Shaheed: No in Atlanta.

T. Najee-ullah: I know what you're talking about. Not Emory but-

R. Shaheed: It's a theological seminary.

T. Najee-ullah: Oglethorpe?

R. Shaheed: No, no.

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T. Najee-ullah: Not Oglethorpe, my father-in-law used to go there all the time.

R. Shaheed: It's African-American.

T. Najee-ullah: Oh, ITC.

R. Shaheed: That's where we had it. That's right. We had it in Philadelphia. We had it in
Oakland, California. This big church was a Presbyterian church in
Philadelphia, outside of Philadelphia put up the money and they financed the
whole thing, food, trip and lodging, for those eight years. Reverend Jay Rock
and myself we had to go to a meeting two years in to meet with the church
members, to let them know how it was going but yeah, that's how we did it.
We did that for four years.

In fact he just called me three days ago. He lives in Sarasota, Florida now. He's
since retired. We were talking about getting together for a reunion, but yeah,
four years of that, as one, because we lived together, ate together, argued
together. I mean, it got down. We got in some kind of touchy areas. We fought
through it. Interfaith dialogue, that's where it is brother. Chance to just ... oh, I
didn't tell you two years straight I went to a interfaith thing for a week long at
St. John's University in Minnesota. That was interesting. It was excellent. We
had eight different religious traditions there, two summers. There's a
document, I could find it for you at home somewhere, but yeah, interfaith
preparation and dialogue is the way to go.

T. Najee-ullah: That's how Allah’s put me in this position. It wasn't my, I don't want to say
passion, it's my experience, just like yours. My family most of them are not
Muslim, some of them did,… my parents did have siblings convert, like you
but for the most part its been a natural progression.

I was in D.C. after Syria at Masjid Muhammad and there was a sister that
came that was doing a program at one of the seminaries and said they needed a
representative of the Imam's office and the Imam Yusuf was supposed to go,
said he couldn't do it and he asked the other fella, the older one said, "No I
can't do it either. Tariq go do this." I did it, I ended up out of that was the IIIT
Institute out of Virginia they were sponsoring that and they wanted me to do a
program.

I did a program with them. They used to do a chaplaincy program that got,
after 9/11, got shut down but they still do the interfaith program, a portion of it
so I did that certificate with them then they encouraged me to go through I
said, "This is not necessarily ..." It's okay but it wasn't what I was planning so I
did go to Georgetown and once I met Dr. Borelli and I saw that okay, this is
what Allah has me here to do so that's what I find humbling about doing at this
point.

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T. Najee-ullah: The question I wanted to ask you is as I've been interviewing what has come
up is there are some type of pact or promise or contract between Imam
Mohammed and Chiara Lubich and I'm not really clear on what that is or what
that was or when that happened or?

R. Shaheed: Yeah, the Focolare have this thing they call the pact and it's ... I can't give you
the exact words or the exact contract but it's that we dedicate our life that we'll
defend…I dedicate myself to you with my life and that I'll lay out my life for
you. Something like that it's a pact that they say to each other and they said it
to us.

I think Chiara said it to Imam. That they would work with each other like that
and defend each other. They were very close even though she didn't speak
English and he didn't speak Italian. I remember so the exact words of the pact I
can get it for you but it was this agreement to work together to help the world
become one, a world that is one. They agreed to that. I'm pretty sure that's
what they were talking about.

I was going to tell you that one time I was on a plane with Imam and it was
just he and I and I said to him ... I didn't say it exactly I was thinking it. I said
give me the real scoop on Chiara Lubich. We're not in the public or anything. I
didn't say it that way but I'm sure Imam saw what I was saying. I didn't say it
in a kind of a condescending way or anything. I just said Imam, give me your
commentary on Chiara Lubich and he said, "She is an inspired woman. I
believe she is inspired and I believe that God has lifted her above all women
on earth." That's what he said about her.

Like I said this was a private conversation. There was nobody else in the
conversation. He saw her as a genuine article. We went on trips in her town
where she lived in and everything and you can tell by, especially the women,
the men to but more importantly the women. When you interact with them,
they channel Chiara Lubich, no doubt about it. I don't think they were even
aware of it as much but the way that God blessed them and teach them to grasp
a certain character and disposition as a believer you should see it, it's
something special.

I don’t know how many you've met, but anywhere in the world. I think the
untrained person would think, they I don't know, flighty and you know, but it's
not that. It's that they have a true feeling that permeates everything they're
about and they believe it. Love is what it's about, right, and they try to embody
that. Once you meet them and get to know them you could probably pick them
out. There's a crowd of people and they kind of start, you know who they
were. That's not consistent though.

I told Imam that once. I said, "Imam why do you really want us to have this
close relationship with the Focolare?" He said, "Well what do you think?" I

191
 said, "Well, they have worked on the concept of love in all it's aspects and they
try to live and embody that." I said, "We are people," talking about Americans,
"who have had the opposite experience, and so much so that we don't even
extend it to each other like we should." I said, " I'm thinking that you want us
to interact with them so we can learn from that." He said, "You're exactly
right." He didn't make any other comments.

I'm not sure I was right on the money in terms of what he wanted but that's
what he said, he said, "You're exactly right." He didn't make any other
comments.

T. Najee-ullah: I want to tell you thank you again. It was quite an honor and a pleasure for the
time that you've extended I'm extended and just been a tremendous,
tremendous help in documenting this and presenting it in the proper way.

R. Shaheed: Not at all. My pleasure brother. My pleasure. I'm going to get you some. Here
I give you that.

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Edited Interview with Imam Earl El-Amin

September 18, 2016

Location: Muslim Community Cultural Center of Baltimore, Baltimore, MD

Author/Transcription Note: The notation “inaudible” simply means that a sound

obscured what word or phrase was exactly stated in the audio recording.

Tariq Najee-ullah: As-Salaam ‘Alaikum Do you consent to this interview being

recorded.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yes, I do.

Tariq Najee-ullah: How would you like to be identified?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Imam Earl El-Amin. Resident Imam at the Muslim Community
Cultural Center of Baltimore.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Well, you just answered that. Where do you reside?

Imam Earl El-Amin: I reside in the city of Baltimore, Baltimore, Maryland

Tariq Najee-ullah: What year were you born. What is your age?

Imam Earl El-Amin: I was born in 1951, I am 65 years of age.

Tariq Najee-ullah: How old were you when you became Muslim, or when you
joined this community?

Imam Earl El-Amin: I was 22 years of age when I became a Muslim. '72, yeah.

Tariq Najee-ullah: And when did you join the ... accepted the leadership of being a
Mohamed or how long would you consider yourself a part of, or
a member of this community?

Imam Earl El-Amin: When I initially joined this community as a college student at
Morgan State University, I joined the Nation of Islam around
1972, '73. And in 1975, after the death of the Honorable Elijah
Muhammad, I matriculated, along with Imam Warithuddeen
Muhammad, and followed his leadership since 1975.

193
Tariq Najee-ullah: Do you consider yourself a pioneer or are you considered a
pioneer in the community?

Imam Earl El-Amin: No, I don't consider myself a pioneer in a certain context. But I
do consider myself a pioneer in another context. If you
understand the community, you find that the Nation of Islam,
under the leadership of the Imam Elijah Muhammad, pioneered
people, what I would say, out of America. Taking them out of
certain psychological and religious conditioning. We ate one
meal a day, we weren't allowed to be involved in sport and play.
They were just some of the examples. So, we did not vote. And
so that took us out of the context of being in fabric of the society
somewhat. Upon Imam W. D. Muhammad becoming the leader,
he pioneered us back into society. Being involved in the political
life. Being involved in social justice organizations. Working in
your neighborhoods. So, I guess I am a pioneer in that context as
one who helped to pioneer back into America. Interfaith
dialogue was very prominent in his mission. So, I guess I am a
pioneer in that context, yes.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. Do you consider yourself a legacy member of community,

or does your family have a history of involvement--any of your
siblings, relatives?

Imam Earl El-Amin: I don't consider myself a legacy. That's very, very, very big
shoes. I consider myself a helper. My parents did leave a legacy.
They weren't Muslims. My mother is 93 years of age just
celebrated her birthday August 27th. And she is a very vibrant
woman, who still is involved in community. She still is the
secretary of the neighborhood association. They celebrated their
60th anniversary on the day of her birthday they celebrated it
also in the community. The upcoming mayor, Congressman
Elijah Cummings, Kwesi Mfume, City Council Person Nick
Mosby, all of those people came out. Catherine Pugh. So, and
my father was a coach. He coached a lot of sandlot, and
ultimately he also was the baseball coach at Morgan State. That
legacy, working with African-American males and working with
people in community was, I guess that was the legacy that was
given to me and my late brother. I guess this is part of the
continuum.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So your brother came into the religion with you as well?

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Imam Earl El-Amin: My brother and I. My brother is three years younger than I. And
we came into this way of life together. Ironically, he came in
before I did. Technically, he came in before I did, yes.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. So, you are familiar with the content of my thesis or its
focus. I am going to ask you some background questions now on
interfaith, and then I am going to speak about some of the facts
that I have for the historic event. And then I'll ask you some
specific questions about Rome and Imam Muhammad and
Vatican, and Pope John Paul II, Chiara Lubich, and the
Focolare. Right now I'm going to get some background on
interfaith. How do you feel about interfaith relationships
between Muslims and Christians?

Imam Earl El-Amin: I wouldn't say how I feel about it. I would say what I think of it.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay.

Imam Earl El-Amin: I think that, and the reason why I am saying that is because it
isn't ... If you read the Qur’an carefully, I think that we have an
obligation to establish interfaith relationships to improve the
quality of life. And so I think that, for me, it's a no-brainer. It's a
no-brainer. It's something that must be done based on the context
of where we are here in America in a predominantly Christian
society. Then, it is imperative that we establish those meaningful
relationships. And based on our historical context of how we
came to America, and many of our family members are
Christians, then it is a no-brainer for us to establish meaningful
relationships with the Christian community.

Tariq Najee-ullah: You kind of led into my next question. I was going to ask what
is your experience with interfaith relationships between Muslims
and other faiths. And you talked about having, you know, having
non-Muslim family members. What additional experiences
would you describe ... And you also talked about us living in an
American society that is predominantly non-Muslim. So, any
other experience that you have ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: As a young man growing up, I was a pretty good baseball
player. And I played in the little league that was predominantly
Jewish. So, my interaction with Jewish children and adults was
at a very early age--before I was 12 years of age. And so, and
even in school. So I began my interaction, socially and I guess

195
 athletically at that period of time. And then as time went on, as a
athlete here in Baltimore playing a few sports, then my
interaction athletically continued with Christians and Jews, and
in the concept of teams. So I got an opportunity to experience
working together for the greater good, for the victory, so to
speak. And so I never was uncomfortable ... And at that period
of time, I wasn't a Christian and I wasn't a Muslim, I was just a
... I guess my father and mother weren't church people. So I just
was a spiritual guy. My father was a very spiritual man, but he
never converted to Christianity or Islam.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. Very interesting. Some of these questions have been
answered to, but I am going somewhere. Have you ever been a
part of a Muslim community interfaith event or program?

Imam Earl El-Amin: I have been involved with interfaith probably before most people
in our national community have been. I think Baltimore city
probably was the forerunner for developing interfaith dialogue
and initiatives. I think we started out in maybe the mid-80s,
maybe even before then doing interfaith initiatives and
dialogues.

Tariq Najee-ullah: What inspired that?

Imam Earl El-Amin: I think the influence was of Imam WD Muhammad and his
vision in understanding how human beings, not just Muslims,
Christians, and Jews, but how human beings interact with one
another and that they ... You work with people so that you get to
know them. We have a ... In the Qur’an it says that God has
created all nations and tribes so that we can get to know one
another. And his word is a powerful one. In the Arabic language
it is much more expansive that just know one another. It entails
working with one another, traveling with one another, as our
prophet has said, three ways that you know a person, live, work,
and travel with them. So I think that it is much more expansive
than that.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So, this is not actually in my questions, but in my research I've
been trying to pin point a date that Imam Muhammad began
interfaith work. I have not been able to find one because, from
the very beginning, the earliest documents from the time that he
became Chief Minister in 1975, I find correspondence or
interviews or interaction with him and Rabbis and Priests.

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Imam Earl El-Amin: Yeah.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So, I've been ... In my conversations people have said something
about a meeting in Washington DC, others said it was a meeting
in Chicago. I'm not certain, I haven't been able to track down
what it was, but I know that, based upon my perspective by
looking at documents, it looks like, from the very beginning, he
has always been involved.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Imam from the very, very beginning was involved in interfaith
dialogue. He alludes to it ... As a matter of fact, before he
became Imam was involved in having dialogue. I remember
vividly him speaking about when he was a conscientious
objector, and he was in Sandstone, Minnesota, and he was
incarcerated along with some of the members of the Nation of
Islam, of the conversations that he used to have with the Jehovah
Witness gentleman. Ironically, many, many years later, at one of
our Ramadan sessions that gentleman, Imam introduced that
gentleman to us. So, his interaction and involvement with people
of other faiths and traditions was even before he became the
leader. So I hope that continues ... But I can't ... I think the first
major interfaith dialogue was in Washington DC. I can't
remember the year.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. The next question I have is, you've said you have been a
part of numerous events. This is a qualitative interview, so that's
why I have asked, "how did you feel," "what you thought" about
it, as well as works. How do you feel about these types of
events? Where they what you expected?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Initially, in a sense, we were the new people on the block as
Muslims. And our interactions with Christians and Jews and the
... I think everybody was playing it safe at first. And then as
people got to know one another, they found out that they were
all human beings. They just had separate faith traditions. And
that they had some of the same issues. In many instances, they
were confronted with the same issues as parents, as neighbors,
as ... All of that. So, I thought that here in Baltimore there was
this real nice natural progression towards establishing
meaningful relationships, and as we were talking you'll see the
culmination of those things that happened. Numerous things that
happened for the culmination of those relationships. And that
actually helped to improve our overall community nationwide.

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Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. How would you compare ... Is there a way to compare
these types of events you've experienced? Are they similar or
different? For instance, if the Muslim community hosts and
interfaith event, does it have a certain feel to it, is it different or
do you have a different approach to it as opposed to when you
would go to an interfaith event hosted by non-Muslims or ... I
don't know if you can make a comparison, but ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: I think that, initially, we did not do a lot of hosting. We did more
traveling to the other synagogues and churches. And then, I
think, when we felt more comfortable with our community
overall, then we would host certain events for everyone. So,
based on what the event was, was based on how things turned
out, so to speak. I just couldn't put a blanket statement on that.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. It's not ... It's a ... It's not a necessarily what blanket you
had, but an example of something that stood out to you just prior
to understanding in a progression, this is in general, then we are
going to get to the specific events. Because my focus is
evaluating the effectiveness of these events as opposed to the
run-of-the-mill dialogue that may be photo ops or hand-shaking
sessions when you may or may not have true fruitful
relationships that come out of it.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yeah. Yeah.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So, I'm trying to get, when I say comparison, like, it can be
examples. I am not necessarily trying to generalize, but if you
remember specific examples that you can think of making some
type of comparison, and then I am going to ask a couple of
questions that may try to give a value.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Let me say that I've been involved in so many of them, I'm
trying to go back in my mind in some that were really or very,
very productive. Initially, I was involved in what was called
"Blacks and Jews Leadership Training Program." Which
necessarily wasn't just African Americans who were Muslim.
Some of those dialogues stuck out because they were very, very
intense. More around race than it was around religion, in a
sense. Then, the relationships that we established around ...but
one of the things that was so important was that via our
language, we had already distinguished ourselves. So people
could make that distinction. We were so ... Our language was so

198
 logical and rational that we were ... People heard a different and
a refreshing perspective on religious life. And I don't like to use
the word religion a lot, but on religious life. I think that that is
real narrow, but, yeah. To give you another example is some
years ago I spoke on Saturday in an Orthodox, a modern Jewish
Orthodox synagogue. And then I spoke on another occasion ... It
was a dialogue that happened at a conservative synagogue,
where the sisters were covered and the Jewish women were
covered, and actually that spawned a greater conversation. A lot
of this was published in The Jewish Times, also.

So, and then in the Catholic community, one of the things that
stuck out for me was a motorcade that came into Baltimore to
Catholic Relief Services on Fayette Street, a four or five car
motorcade. And this little man gets out, and the people are
wondering ... The police ... There's motorcycles in the front and
wondering who this guy is. People are asking, actually. Then
Imam Mohammed, Cardinal Arinze, Dr. Sulayman Nyang ... I
believe we had a major meeting there. Cardinal Keeler, who
played a prominent, prominent, prominent role in this whole
interfaith, especially in Baltimore City, and nationally. But those
things ... And just, not just the religious leaders, but things like
Habitat For Humanity. People working together, building a
house together. Muslims, Christians, Jews doing those types of
social ... Even on that level, those things stick out to me. The
house was completed and you can see what you did working
together. The end result of something, and that a family is going
to benefit from the work that you put in as people of faith. So,
those types of things, yeah, they stick out to me.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So, if you could assign a ... Based on those experiences, what
would you say the value of interfaith experiences, especially
between Muslims and Christians, how would you describe the
value of what it means to you?

Imam Earl El-Amin: I think that the value of that is that ... For us as Muslims, and
what we have had to go through via the media and some extreme
aspects of our way of life and things that have occurred over
time and throughout the world, those sincere relationships that
were established helped up to navigate in America. And what I
mean is, is that we had advocates that were outside the
parameters of Islam, but who actually knew.

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 I read a letter last year or year before last that a woman that
befriended my brother and I many, many years ago, who
actually was the catalyst for establishing the relationship with
the Jewish community. She's an orthodox Jew, and I used to live
in the Jewish community at one time, and I used to see this
woman. And you know, I was an avid runner at one time. And
I'd see this woman every morning running with a German
Shepherd and a long dress and a head cover. She already knew
my brother because my brother was a community planner all
through northwest Baltimore. And so we struck up this
relationship. She lived around the corner from me, and she also
at the time was working at the Baltimore Jewish Council.

And years later she ... She came back here last year and I had
lunch with her, Imam Derrick Amin and myself. But she wrote a
beautiful letter to us. She lives in Israel, and that the perceptions
of Muslims from the Jewish community where she lives out in a
kibbutz, I guess you call it, community. And she says that she is
always advocating that that is not the Muslims that I know. The
Muslims that I know are kind, considerate, are ... And so I read
that to the community one week. We would email back and
forth, but I'll try to see if I can find that because I think that that
is worthwhile, you know. It was really something for her to say
that and to say that right there in Israel and what is happening
over there.

So, that's an example of what I am talking about. What it

produced.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. That's very, I thank you, more for the interview, I guess,
toward the meat of what we are discussing. I'm going to read to
you briefly a summary of historic events, and then I ... Feel free
to correct me, because this is based on documentation that I have
accumulated from Dr. Borelli, for The Living City Magazines,
from the Muslim Journal, and now from Imam Ronald Shaheed,
the information that he has given me, the documents that he has
given me.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Okay.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Imam Muhammad went to Rome and met with Pope John Paul
II at the Vatican in October of 1996. There were a series of
meetings that proceeded this first trip between Imam Earl Al

200
 Amin, Imam Eric Al Amin and a later stage between Imam Earl
Abdu Malic Muhammad with members of the Vatican. Imam
Muhammad initially met with Cardinal Arinze in Baltimore in
1995 at a program on inter-religious dialogue between Muslims
and Catholics. Imam Muhammad met afterwards with Cardinal
Keeler, who served as Arch-Bishop of Baltimore at that time. In
Rome, Imam Muhammad and the delegation met with several
Catholic communities. The community which Imam Muhammad
developed an on-going relationship with was [inaudible
00:26:49].

Imam Muhammad developed a deep and respectful friendship

with Chiara Lubich leader of the Focolare movement. In 1997,
Chiara Lubich spoke with the aid of an Italian translator in
Malcolm Shabazz Masjid in Harlem, New York, with Imam WD
Muhammad. Imam Ezekiel Pasha moderating

Imam Muhammad again traveled to Rome ... Oh, I have a note

here that Imam Muhammad also met in 1996 with Focolare.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yeah, he went up to Mariapolis.

Tariq Najee-ullah: In New York?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yeah, up-state New York. He went up to Mariapolis. And the
reason why I know that, is because I did not attend. I was
assigned the task of ... That day the Imam was supposed to meet
with ... It was in White Plains, which is in West Chester County,
New York. To meet with the county executive of White Planes
and some other officials. I was given the task of meeting with
them. So, I know he went to Mariapolis. As a matter of fact, at
that time I was working in the Governor's office. So, they called
me as someone who could deal with that. I know he did, that that
is absolutely correct.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. Afterwards, I still haven't found a date for this, but there
was a ... Chiara Lubich and Imam Muhammad spoke in
Washington DC at some time called Faith Community
Development?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Uh hum.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I don't have a year for that.

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Imam Earl El-Amin: That's later on.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. So, in 1998 there's a trip. Imam Muhammad went to Italy
on a trip with the Focolare, to meet the Focolare with an
assembly of Muslim friends and the Focolare.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yeah, that was a world-wide ... I was a participant in that. He
took a group of maybe 80 of us had come from America. Not
just all Imams. It was just members of the community. Imam
Plemon was part of that delegation. Ezekiel Pasha was part of
that delegation. And ironically, that is when the idea of hosting
Chiara Lubich came about. The Imam gave the instruction ...

Tariq Najee-ullah: This trip was hosted here in New York?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Hosted here in New York.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So, this could have been '98 then?

Imam Earl El-Amin: The trip was '97.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay.

Imam Earl El-Amin: The trip was '97. The next year we went back.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So then, there was another trip in '98?

Imam Earl El-Amin: There was another trip in '98. No. The next trip was '99.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So, I have '99 written on here. This was ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: The next trip ... We went back the next year after the ... We went
back the next year.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I have yet to interview anyone from the Focolare. I'm supposed
to meet with them. They have a representative in Silver Springs,
Maryland.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Well, the best person to meet with, probably, is Bill. Because he
was involved ... Let me show you this guy. This is the first time
we ever met with him. He was the initial companion of Chiara
Lubich. He is the oldest member of the Focolare. But Bill is ...

202
 This is the first picture we ever took, and this is the guy you
might want to meet.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So, this is the '96 trip?

Imam Earl El-Amin: This is the '96 trip. This is Borelli, Bishop Fitzgerald,

Tariq Najee-ullah: That's Dr. Borelli right here?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yeah. Right there. Dr. Borelli right there. The initial trip. Sharry
Silvi, Julian Sabatini. They were the North American leadership.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I've met them before a couple of times when I was in DC. They
came to see Masjid Muhammad a couple of times. I've talked to
them. I was doing ... That was before I was at Georgetown, but I
was doing interfaith work then, and the Imam introduced me to
them.

Imam Earl El-Amin: That's the individuals. There was also something that took place
in Rome, also. We all received Medals of Honor from Lake
Community, and then the Imam spoke ... Do you remember
when the Imam spoke at Georgetown? Remember that? It was at
a National Day of Prayer. Oh man, what year was that? I was the
Resident Imam here then. It was later on. Because this
gentleman graduated from Georgetown, and he wanted to have a
National Day of Prayer at Georgetown. Yusuf was there. Yusuf
and I were there because had dinner that night with the Imam,
just he and I. Do you know why I know that? Because I
introduced Imam to Emergen-C. He saw me pouring Emergen-C
into a glass and asked me what that was. Yeah, Yeah. I
introduced him to it.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I have heard about this story from the Imam's perspective and
also from Dr. Esposito.

Imam Earl El-Amin: About the Imam speaking at Georgetown. He spoke on two
occasions at Georgetown. Once in the Library. John was there.
Borelli was there. But he spoke at big ... They had the ... This
was the large leadership contingency. They had ...There is a
picture of me there. Up there at that. And Yusuf is behind me. I
am sitting there next to the Imam.

203
Tariq Najee-ullah: Because this is what happened. When Imam Mohammed passed,
Dr. Esposito wrote about it in the Washington Post about seeing
the motorcade and all of that. And when I told him the research I
was doing, he said the same thing. He said he remembered it. He
met him a couple of times.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Right.

Tariq Najee-ullah: And what he remembers was this big motorcade. He said, "I
thought it was the President." He said, "The Imam was so
humble, it didn't go with the motorcade." But I never did know
what the event was. He didn't remember what the event was. He
just remembered that ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: The community at San Egidio community is the lay community
that we also had dinner at I was showing with the gentleman.
And they feed like 1,000, 2,000 people a day, homeless people.
This guy was a graduate of Georgetown. In the San Egidio
community.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So I need to pin point and find out when the Focolare was, the
exact date of this trip to ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: It was '96, '97. We went back the next year. Uh, Plemon might
remember. Yeah, it was the next year. I remember going back
the next year. You know who else you might ask? Sister Amina
out in Kansas City, because she went and her daughter. They all
went. I'm a call. I'll call here and ask her.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Because Imam Ronald was definitely saying it was '98.

Imam Earl El-Amin: '98. It was up in the ... It was up at ... This was up at the Pope's
Summer Residence. In the San Egidio, and it was not just our
community. There were Muslims from all over the world.

Tariq Najee-ullah: That's what he said. He said was an assembly of Muslim friends
of the Focolare.

Imam Earl El-Amin: That right.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Muslims from all over the world, and that he went. He said the
Imam had, might have had some private meetings cause the
Imam wasn't always with the whole group.

204
Imam Earl El-Amin: He wasn't always with ... Yeah. The Imam did have private
meetings. But we wasn't involved in these dialogues, because
you put the headphones on, you had translators ... Because they
translated in 12 different languages. Freeman was there? Yeah, I
remember that, clearly. That was '97. Ask ... Get in touch with
Imam Plemon.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I sent it in and it came back. Lastly, do you have a date on the ...
Well, I'll read this part and then go to those.

Imam Mohammad again traveled to Rome in 1999 in October

and visited with the Pope John Paul II. And then Mohammad
delivered a testimony and a prayer at closing ceremony in the
Vatican City at the inter-religious assembly before the Central
Committee for the Great Jubilee of the year 2000 for
Participating Council for Inter-Religious Dialogue. The theme
was toward a culture of dialogue.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Remarking on this, Dr. John Borelli writes, "In October 1999, at
the interim assembly convened in Rome by Cardinal Arinze was
the preparatory event for the celebration of the Great Jubilee
Year 2000. Imam Mohammad offered prayer on the steps of St.
Peter's Basilica during the closing service. I was told it was the
first time that a Muslim offered a prayer in formal in the
precincts of St. Peter's. An American Muslim praying in a public
service at the central spot in the Vatican--I was pinching
myself."

There are two other points that have been raised in addition to
the trip that I kind of need to find out where documentation
exists so I can put that included. One is that the meeting Chiara
Lubich was in Washington DC with Imam Mohammad together.
What I had, I got this. I believe that is November of 2000.

Imam Earl El-Amin: 2000. That's it.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I just wanted to make sure that was the right thing.

Imam Earl El-Amin: That's it.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I was actually ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: That's it.

205
Tariq Najee-ullah: And then ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: He went to that American University of Southern ... Catholic
University.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Catholic University.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Right. That's it. That's it.

Tariq Najee-ullah: In the Basilica of The National Shrine.

Imam Earl El-Amin: That's right.

Tariq Najee-ullah: And at the Convention Center.

Imam Earl El-Amin: That's right.

Tariq Najee-ullah: This is a big thing.

Imam Earl El-Amin: It's a big thing. That's it.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I was here that summer that Imam Muhammad spoke. Cardinal
Keeler spoke...

Imam Earl El-Amin: Convention Center.

Imam Earl El-Amin: That was on that board there. Baltimore Welcomes ... That was
here. That was at the Convention Center.

Tariq Najee-ullah: At the Convention Center?

Imam Earl El-Amin: The largest Muslim ... The largest group ... The largest number
of people that ever attended an event.

Tariq Najee-ullah: At the Convention Center? Downtown? It was downtown?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yeah, that's right. The pictures right there on the wall. I'll show
it to you.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Right there on the right, right here?

Tariq Najee-ullah: So, the second thing that I just want to date to see if there was
something was a ... Imam Ronald Shaheed was very certain that

206
 Imam had prayer with Pope John Paul II at Saint Francis of
Assisi.

Imam Earl El-Amin: '99?

Tariq Najee-ullah: He doesn't know when it was. But he said he knew there was
none of us there. He said he did not doubt it was a separate trip.
He said the Imam spoke of it.

Imam Earl El-Amin: I'm not going to comment because I don't know.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. He said he knew the Imam spoke of it, but he did not give
him ... There was no time, no place. He said it very well could
have been a separate trip because the part of the trips he already
had. He said maybe somebody else knows. But he couldn't speak
on that.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yeah. I don't know.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. Let's go through this process real quick. Number one, did
you travel as part of the Imam Mohammad delegation to either
of these trips to Rome?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yes, I did. I traveled with the Imam Mohammad on the initial
trip. And I traveled with Imam Mohammad the second year that
we went.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So, these are the '96 and the '99 trips?

Imam Earl El-Amin: '96 and '97 trips.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay.

Imam Earl El-Amin: The '99 trip was when he gave the prayer on the steps.

Tariq Najee-ullah: And you were there as well?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yes, '99.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. Were you in attendance in Harlem at Masjid Malcolm

Shabazz?

207
Imam Earl El-Amin: I was in attendance at Masjid Malcolm Shabazz because later
that week we met with Grand Mufti of Syria. Imam traveled to
Buffalo. He asked my brother and I to come to Buffalo, but we
couldn't get tickets then. It was too expensive to go. He was
coming to Baltimore the next day. After he met with him, and
then we met with the Grand Mufti here in Baltimore. As a matter
of fact, he did a talk at An-Nur at that time. Imam Bashar Arafat
was the Imam there.

Imam Earl El-Amin: I knew you in Atlanta.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I met you at that thing at the Convention Center, that's where I
met you.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yup. That's right.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Yeah, that's who introduced me to you.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yeah, I was coordinating the whole thing. Earl Abdul Malik and
Eric were up on the stage as always. I won't be in any of these
pictures because I was the guy that took all the pictures every
time we went. I carried a big bag with me all the time, over my
shoulder. And they played the ... And that's all right with me, I
mean, man, that's what I do. I'm like, the lime light wasn't my
thing.

Tariq Najee-ullah: You do the work, Alhamdulillah.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Just get it done. What's your next ... We can digress with this
history.

Tariq Najee-ullah: We don't need to. I just think it is amazing that Allah put us
together all this time. From so many years ago, that's almost 20
years ago.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yeah.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I didn't know you from anything, nothing. But how integrated
our lives were even then at that point for the next decision I was
going to make. Even then, what I was involved in, that you were
setting up the opportunity that Allah was using you to do it and I
was going to come back here and write it down.

208
Imam Earl El-Amin: Write it down. And the irony is I stood on the steps of Saint
Peter’s in March of this year. Twenty years ago, I was here with
Imam Muhammad was part of the initial delegation. And 20
years later, 20 years later, I'm back with the interfaith delegation.
So that speaks volumes to me about his vision. About Imam W.
D. Mohammed.

Tariq Najee-ullah: It does.

Imam Earl El-Amin: It speaks volumes to me. To meet two different Popes in my
lifetime is unbelievable. Not me, I'm talking about the work that
Allah blessed us to be able to do with the vision this man had.
Most people don't even get it, even in our community. So I think
a lot, and when I have the opportunity to answer question
sometimes you think, "That's enough for tonight" I can ask him
thousands of questions about things, because we wanted to
know. And his vision, his vision in my heart and my mind is
pristine. I know what his vision is. I know what his vision is. I
know what he wanted, because I had numerous conversations
with him about it.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So, I'm going to skip ahead a little bit. Because that's one of my
questions. Are there any insights you have as to why Imam
Mohammad pursued these dialogues?

Imam Earl El-Amin: I think Imam Mohammad pursued these dialogues solely based
on understanding the mind and traditions of Mohammad the
Prophet in our time, space, reality here in America.

Tariq Najee-ullah: What do you mean by time, space, reality here in America?

Imam Earl El-Amin: As I have alluded to before, we were in a minority as African

Americans. We were also in a minority as Muslims. And that the
Qur’an calls us to get to know one another. I think that the
model the Imam was following based on what he saw in the
prophet in Medina. I think this is a culmination of all of that in
his vision of what he wanted. And I think that he also wanted to
put a cloaking device on this community. And I know that's
what he wanted to do predicated on a decision that he made in
Desert Storm. In Desert Storm, he took the position with the
United States and he took a lot of flak for it. Ironically, we had
at the time a Congressional Black Caucus that voted against the
war. And Imam Earl Abdul Malik came to Baltimore and we

209
 met with ... At the time the head of the Congressional Black
Congress was Kwesi Mfume, who was a friend of my brother
and I. And we met with him and he verbatimly told Kwesi why,
and the Imam said that I have to protect my community here in
America. And that was the vision. And twice he said, "I can
respect that wholeheartedly and I will convey that back to the
Congressional Black Caucus."

So, I think the Imam understood protecting his community also.

And he was very sensitive to that. To his community and to
protecting his community. He had a heck of a sensitivity to that.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So, you've given a little bit of what you think his intensions
were. What do you think Imam Mohammad hoped would result
from these dialogues? You mentioned protection.

Imam Earl El-Amin: I think that the end result was what's you're seeing in America
today. A group of Muslims ... And what's you're seeing
embodied in an individual who wasn't an Imam and who wasn't
a Sheikh, but who captured the world and later influenced the
world. Muhammad Ali. What's you're seeing in Congressmen
Andre Carson and Keith Ellison. What's your seeing in Judge
Hassan El-Amin. What's you're seeing in people that are in the
fabric of American society as Muslims, but as Muslim-
Americans who everyday do the same thing that Americans do,
work hard, make a significant contribution to their family and
their neighborhood. That's what his vision was. And to
distinguish ourselves, being excellent human beings. That's what
his vision was. I know it. I know it like I know the back of my
hand. And what you are seeing now in the embodiment of Imam
W. D. Mohammed is Delilah ... Delilah Mohammad, who just
won the

Tariq Najee-ullah: I'll turn that off.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Back to the [Muslim Americans representing the United States
in the Rio Olympics], Delilah Mohammad, Imam Askia’s
daughter, who won the 400 meter high hurdles. Nia Ali who
won second in the hurdles. The young lady Ibtihaj Muhammad,
who was the young fencer. That's part of Imam Mohammad's
vision. And in every fabric, every segment of society, we pop
up, and we demonstrate excellence. Be it athletic or be

210
 academics or be it in culture, in the arts, in the sciences. That's
his vision.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So, we're rapping up, there are some questions I want to get.
You've kind of mentioned this, but I want to go back to Rome.
How did you feel about your experience in being in Rome? Was
it what you expected or was it even ... I know you don't compare
something like that to hajj, but can you compare it to other
religious experiences that you've had, places that you've visited?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Well, in my opinion, there is nothing like make the haj. But I
also understand that for Catholics, this is like a pseudo-
pilgrimage for them. Nothing in depth and detail what we go
through. Because we are the largest gathering in the world. Hajj
is the largest religious gathering in the world. But seeing people
walk down the isle, and to see throngs of people, and you're
going to be sitting on the stage, on the platform, on the dais, and
see people like that, that many people out there in St. Peter's
Square, and you're sitting right here, that's unbelievable, man.
We were escorted by Bishop Michael Fitzgerald after meeting
with the Pope's physician and his spokesperson, Dr. Navarro
Valls. And it's a statement that he made that I will always
cherish, and I always try to say when I'm talking about Imam
Mohammad. He said, "Imam, we recognize you, not as a
newsmaker, but as a history maker." And so when you ask me
about Imam Mohammad, he is a history maker. But he is
probably one of the great history makers that is a stealth leader.
He's a stealth master.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So this was in Rome? [looking at pictures of the Rome and the
Vatican]

Imam Earl El-Amin: That’s the largest masjid in Rome. That's the Imam there. He's
from Egypt. Has the largest Qur’an in the world. We joke about
that. I'll tell you about that. But this is the head of the Pontifical
Order of Justice. This general is from France. And his assistant
was from the Congo, so he translated. He didn't speak English.
And he asked us what tribe we were from? I almost blurted out,
"The lost tribe of Shabazz." And so after I left, we got in the car,
and I told Imam, "You know Imam, I almost slipped in there."
He said, "You should have said that." So, this is a dialogue with
them. We met with all the Pontifical Orders. So that experience
... This is the Muslim, Islamic, the Qur’ans and documents on

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 Islam from everywhere in the world. And there is Qur’an spoken
in every language in here in the world. So, the San Egidio
people we have dinner with in Rome. This is the library in the
Vatican. You have to have special access to that library. And
then we were given a special tour of ...

Tariq Najee-ullah: The Sistine Chapel.

Imam Earl El-Amin: The Sistine Chapel.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Oh, wow.

Imam Earl El-Amin: So we were given a special tour of the Sistine Chapel. Can you
imagine something that was profound for me at this time.
Anyone who lay on his back and to paint that had to be inspired
by God. This man saw beyond where we were all the time. He
always found that place, the most pristine place. You know what
I’m saying? He always found that. That was so amazing to me,
how he could find that. He could always find that in his logic
and his spiritual self.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I've heard stories of, and I think from, and I don't know if it is
from this trip, about Dr. Nasr Ahmad and ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: He was on that trip with us.

Tariq Najee-ullah: It was '99 or?

Imam Earl El-Amin: '98. He was on the second trip.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay, '98.

Imam Earl El-Amin: '98.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Uh, '97. Well, it's disputable. Yours sounds better. '97 trip but
Ahmad and Makram El-Amin too ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: Imam Makram was there.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Let's talk about how Imam was very keen and aware of
symbolism and giving like Ramadan Session type wisdom this
whole time.

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Imam Earl El-Amin: See we ... You're absolutely correct. And we had ... The year
before we had been privy to just a small group sitting in the
lobby of a hotel and he would start to teach. And give you a
symbolisms of all those things. It was amazing how he could
grab it. One of the things that I think we miss the Imam on ...
and this is for all of the so-called religious leaders in America,
Muslim leaders. One of the things that separates Imam
Mohammad from all those leaders, you name him, all of them, is
his profound understanding of the Bible and being able to
correlate the Bible and the, make the correlations between the
Bible and the Qur’an. And I've never ever heard any other
scholar and leader in America make those correlations. Really in
the world.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Yeah, the only person I ever heard same thing, it wasn't in the
depth of Imam Mohammad, Sheikh Kuftaro would make
analogies to the Bible.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Sheikh Kuftaro's vision and the Imam's vision were very, very,
very, very similar. What he saw for Islam and the world ... do
you know the story of Sheikh Kuftaro in this whole thing? Were
you at the Imam's Janazah? Did you know Imam Dogar who did
Janazah? Janazah is always wondering why one of us didn't do
it? I was a pallbearer, but one of us didn't do it. I was told the
story by Ayesha Mustafaa. In 1966, in early 1966, Imam
Mohammad was at his father's house. And some of the
leadership in our community at that time in the Nation of Islam
was there. But there was some brothers from Pakistan who had
come to talk to Elijah Muhammad because there was a young
Sheikh that was coming to America and wanted to meet with us.
Typical sit down and relax with Mohammad. The Sheikh's name
was Ahmad Kuftaro.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I haven't heard this part of the story. I've heard other parts from
Syrians.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Sheikh Ahmad Kuftaro. What happened at that meeting at that
house before he came was that the Imam was excommunicated
from the community at that day. Sheikh Dogar supported the
Imam during his expulsion. Imam would go to gym up there.
Imam would stay in touch with him the whole time. I know this
for a fact, because in the initial conference call with Sheikh
Kuftaro, he alluded to meeting the honorable Imam Mohammad

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 in 1966. He said I met your father in 1966, and was very
impressed. So, that's why ... So he ... that was the one that stayed
with Imam the whole time? He supported him and everything
the whole time. So that is why he was very close to him. If you
notice, he traveled with him before.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I didn't know that part of the story. I did know ... They alluded to
the fact that the Imam was excommunicated right before they
visited. And that ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: Do you know why he was excommunicated? Because he told his
father he wasn't the messenger of God.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I did not know that. I didn't know how to take it because it was a
Syrian telling me. Sheikh Kuftaro’s translator told the story, I
recorded the story, told the story about Elijah Mohammad. She
did not know ... They did not know, apparently, how it was
orchestrated. When they got there and went to the house, but it
shows there was some preparation because they the word out
there ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: It was preparation.

Tariq Najee-ullah: But they, everybody said, "No, you can't meet with Elijah
Mohammad, he's not Muslim, we can't guarantee your safety."
They got a big push back from the Syrian Muslims and other
Muslims and so the Pakistanis went. Because their people would
not set up the meeting with the Honorable Elijah Mohammad.
They did tell us that much. They said the Syrian people would
not set up the meeting with the Honorable Elijah Mohammad.
But Sheikh Kuftaro was intent, he was adamant about it. Yeah,
they said he had back surgery. And he was like, I'm going to go
see Honorable Elijah Mohammad. They were trying to ... You
know, that' their leader. I got that from ... So him and
Mohammad did never meet ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: He never met Sheikh Kuftaro until he met him in Buffalo.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. '96

Imam Earl El-Amin: He met Chiara Lubich on a Sunday. Chiara Lubich came to
Malcolm Shabazz on a Sunday. On a Wednesday he met with

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 Sheikh Kuftaro in Buffalo, New York. And I'll tell you who was
there.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Hold on. White Plains was '96, '97. '97?

Imam Earl El-Amin: I can't remember.

Tariq Najee-ullah: But you are saying this happened in '97.

Imam Earl El-Amin: When ever she went to Harlem

Tariq Najee-ullah: Harlem.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Harlem.

Tariq Najee-ullah: That was '97.

Imam Earl El-Amin: He met that following week.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So he met with the Focolare in Hyde Park and Mariapolis the
same time or when they were here before?

Imam Earl El-Amin: No, he met with them that Labor Day weekend.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. The year before?

Imam Earl El-Amin: The year before. But that was the first time meeting Chiara
Lubich

Tariq Najee-ullah: Oh, she wasn't in when you went ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: She wasn't in Hyde Park. I mean Mariapolis.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I know, but when you were with friends afterwards.

Imam Earl El-Amin: See, we met her in '97 when we went to ...

Tariq Najee-ullah: Italy.

Tariq Najee-ullah: So, let me ask you this question. Prayer time is about to catch us.
What difference have you experienced ... I am going to separate
two experiences. There's more than two experiences here, but
I'm separating the Focolare experience from the Rome/Vatican

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 experience. Right now, we are talking about the Rome/Vatican
experience. What difference has this experience made in your
life? What does it mean to you, if you can put a value on it? Like
what value has it ... What's the value of the experience to you?

Imam Earl El-Amin: For me, the value is being able to have experienced something
that I never, ever thought that I would experience. And to be
able to take from that experience and impart that to other people
of other faith traditions, not just Muslims. And to see the benefit
of what that experience has been able to do locally and
nationally. And how it impacted so many people in their lives
and understanding throughout our community, the Catholic
community, the Jewish community--all of those communities.
To see how the ex-slave was able to influence and assume his
rightful place in humanity. I'll never forget the first day we were
in Rome. We got on the elevator, and Imam turned to us in the
hotel and "We know we have been all over the world and we
ain't nobody's boy." I'll never forget that, brother. He looked us
dead in the eye and said, "We ain't nobody's boy."

And I remember the pictures when we were in the Vatican. All

of us had pictures, as you very well know. And the Imam had
about seven copies, and he took us and showed us and asked,
"Which one do you think is best?" Because we were sending
them back to the United States for a newspaper. And we said,
"All this one and this one." He said, "Well, let no one have this
one. The enemies within our community and outside of our
community are saying that we are kissing the Pope's ring." So,
the picture you see at events beside of the Pontiff ensure that's
who he is. What do you all think?" That's the leader.

Tariq Najee-ullah: What did you learn about interfaith relationships from this
experience?

Imam Earl El-Amin: That the possibilities are unlimited. And that experience showed
me 20 years later that the possibilities are unlimited.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Has what you experienced impacted how you see religion?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Of course. I couldn't ... It has influenced me so much how I see
religion and how I see faith. I said I don't like the word religion,
but how I see religion.

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Tariq Najee-ullah: Would you say it has expanded, broadened or narrowed your
viewpoint? Could you describe what you mean?

Imam Earl El-Amin: I'm wide and I'm deep now. At one time I was wide, but now I'm
deep. Do you understand? If I can use that ...

Tariq Najee-ullah: Have you changed your ideas, widened and deepened your
thinking since this visit.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Of course. The event allowed me to view life, people, in a
completely different context. To see people as the Qur’an calls
us to. Oh, you who believe. I am thinking of the Qur’an which
says, "Oh you Muslims" maybe 12 times. But, Oh, you who
believe. Believe in what? Believe in God in the last days.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Have what you've experienced here changed how you see
current events or politics, moral values, equality, freedom?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Of course.

Tariq Najee-ullah: We can answer that, and I'll stop.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Say it again.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Has what you've experienced impacted how you see current
events, politics, equality, moral values in society?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yeah. Yeah. I see people in the best and I see people in their
worst in those things, politics, morality. I see some at their best
and I see some at their worst, and I think that I can use my
interaction with people of other faiths and traditions as a lens to
view people in their best and people in their worst.
Tariq Najee-ullah: So, I close the ...

Tariq Najee-ullah: I'm still talking about the Vatican and Pope John Paul II, and
Mohammed. In your opinion were these dialogues successful?

Imam Earl El-Amin: I think that they were. Just look around you. Look, the
dialogues, I think, were extremely successful. There's a
continuum going on throughout the United States with these
dialogs. Of course. Not only just the dialogue. The dialogue led
people into working together. We have the Baltimore Interfaith

217
 Coalition here in Baltimore where we work together. As a matter
of fact, I do a lot of work with Catholic charities.

Just got this in the mail. Yeah, those dialogues were very, very
productive. They led to working together for the common good.

Tariq Najee-ullah: In your opinion were these dialogues effective?

Imam Earl El-Amin: I think they are. I'm going to say are, because they are effective.
I just as a matter of fact had a conversation with the urban vicar,
the number-two person here in Baltimore, ArchBishop Madden,
around a discussion around partnering with the local Catholic
church in our area here to be at Johns Hopkins Hospital. Do
probably a monthly medical clinic and to house it there. Their
facility's a little larger than ours. They're beneficial. It's still
working, man. Still going strong.

Tariq Najee-ullah: You definitely would describe the experience of beneficial to

you and to our community?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Beneficial to me and our community very much.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Both communities I guess. Communities-

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yeah, the Catholic community and the Muslim community. Any
time you ask a Imam to address the nuns, mother superiors, that
nun order, those types of things. Come on, man, you think 25
years ago we would have been able? Maybe 20 years ago maybe
we could do that but over time because the relationships that
have been established ... This is what's happening. Speak at the
seminary.

Tariq Najee-ullah: How would you quantify or qualify the benefits that resulted
from this dialogue, if you could?

Imam Earl El-Amin: What did the Honorable Elijah Muhammad say? Good friends in
all walks of life.

Tariq Najee-ullah: You're not the only person who's said that.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yeah, that, and across the board in relationships and
government, politics, culture, education. All of those things.
That's good friends in all walks of life. I think all, we benefited

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 immensely from all of that. It was a catholic governor that
appointed first Muslim circuit court judge in state of Maryland. I
think that that bodes well with our ... what we've been able to do.
Just not locally, but nationally, with the Catholic community.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I'm going to pivot now, ask you a similar set of questions about
the meetings with Chiara Lubich and the Focolare movement. I
understand, based on our conversation and what I've read so far,
that the first trip in 1996, in addition to meeting with the Pope,
and the administrative officials at the Vatican, that you were
introduced to several of the Catholic communities, the lay
communities where they weren't Priests.

Imam Earl El-Amin: San Egidio. We were introduced to San Egidio community when
we were introduced to Focolare. It was a recommendation by
Cardinal Keeler to the Imam, that he might want to pursue a
relationship with the Focolare community. While we were in
Rome we were hosted, dinner, at the ambassador to the Vatican's
home, who at the time was Ray Flynn, who was the former
mayor of Boston. This is the first time, as I was showing you in
these pictures, it's the first time that we ever met anyone from
Focolare. That relationship began there, and it evolved to where
it is now, where throughout the country, there's relationships, we
participate in some of their activities and initiatives and they
participate in some of our activities and initiatives.

Yes, ironically I was, a few months ago, was in New Jersey, at

Imam Wali Mohammed's retirement. At his retirement, and then
a young lady came over to me, to whom I didn't know. She says,
"You're Imam El-Amin, would you be willing to take a picture
with us?" It was a group from Focolare there. "We know the
work that you did." I said, "Yeah." They introduced me to the
person in Washington who was a member of Focolare now.
Ironically, the first North American meeting that took place with
the officials took place right here in this masjid. There's a picture
on the wall there. With Sharry Silvi, Julian Sabotini and two
other members of the Focolare community. My brother and
myself. Participated in that first meeting. Mapping out what we
wanted to do and where we wanted to go. Alhamdulillah.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Are there any insights you have as to why Imam Mohammed
pursued that dialogue with Focolare? Just telling me about
Cardinal Keeler's recommendation ...

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Imam Earl El-Amin: Well, ironically, that night, leaving the dinner that was hosted
for Imam Mohammed at the ambassador's, Imam was questioned
by my late brother, Eric. He said, "Imam, I mean, what's the deal
with the folks here, with these folks?" He's standing behind us.
"Who are these folks?" Imam said, "These people from
everything that I know, these are good people, and that they love
one another and they work very well together. I think that our
community could benefit seeing them working together and
loving one another." That was his response to my brother.

Tariq Najee-ullah: That being said, what do you think he hoped would result from
these dialogues? That we would love one another? What ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: That the community, overall community would benefit from
seeing Focolare, their ethic. Their work ethic and their
relationships, but also working with Focolare on issues and
initiatives, jointly, to benefit the whole of our society.

Tariq Najee-ullah: You were present at the meeting with the Focolare in Rome.
You were present at the meeting with Chiara Lubich in
Washington, DC, and prior to that ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: New York.

Tariq Najee-ullah: ... the trip to, in New York. Prior to that the trip to the assembly
of Friends of the Focolare in 97. You got to witness that
relationship. How did you feel about your experience in that,
seeing the relationship? What was the relationship that Imam
Mohammed had with Chiara Lubich?

Imam Earl El-Amin: I think it was one of mutual respect. If you understand the
history of Chiara Lubich, and how she, the level of her faith, I
think the Imam had a profound respect for that. What she was
able to accomplish in the capacity of a layperson. I think the
Imam appreciated that. That's about it.

Tariq Najee-ullah: What did that relationship teach you about interfaith
relationships in particular, or the relationship with the Focolare?
This is a, I would say different, than meeting with the
administrators. This was a community.

Imam Earl El-Amin: You have to realize, I think, not just for me, but for many of our
membership in our community, this probably was the first time

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 that they interacted with people that didn't look like them. I think
that it helped them in their growth and development to deal with
quote-unquote white people. I think vice versa, it helped the
Focolare people also.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I just want to clarify further. Your statement. Get additional
clarity from you. Excuse me. You said that we didn't, we interact
with, I guess, European Americans on a regular basis. When you
say this was different, what was different about interacting with
the Focolare than the interactions that we have here in America?

Imam Earl El-Amin: Our interactions with European-Americans in America are a

little different. You might be buying something from me, you
might be a consumer. You might pay your rent to them. This had
nothing to do with that. You extract all of that out of it, and it's
more of a person to person, heart to heart relationships that
being established, and dialogues that are happening, rather than
any normal way African Americans interact with European
Americans.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. Help us get beyond racial prejudice.

Imam Earl El-Amin: Of course. As you know, you talking about a organization that
was fresh out of saying the man was the devil and didn't
understand the symbolic language, but embraced some of that.
Many people who came from marginalized background, didn't
have that level of exposure to people like that. It's a different
context.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I'm going to ask you, I think you kind of covered some of these
things, but just for the sake of being consistent with the question.
What did you learn about interfaith relationships or human
relationships from relationships with the Focolare? Again, you
might have addressed this already.

Imam Earl El-Amin: I think you have to approach things, rightly intended. You have
to be rightly intended to get anything out of it. If you're rightly
intended then you'll get something out of it that's beneficial to
you and to the Focolare.

Tariq Najee-ullah: I think we just have a couple of minutes left. Has this experience
with the Focolare impacted how you see religion, or current

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 events, politics, equality, freedom, moral values, society, in a
different way than, say, the Vatican experience?

Imam Earl El-Amin: No. I'd say they’re all one to me. That's how, I think, the Imam
saw it. He didn't compartmentalize it. He saw it as all one.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Is there a different message that you got coming out of
Mohammed's meeting with Chiara Lubich? Did it mean
something different to you than the meeting with the Pope, or ...

Imam Earl El-Amin: It's all one. To me, it's the same message I got when he met with
Yasser Arafat, when he met with whoever he met with. It's all
part of what Muhammad the Prophet would've done. One of the
things the Imam always said, he always questioned, he said,
"How would the Prophet approach this?"

Tariq Najee-ullah: In your opinion, again, you said it's all one, so I think that kind
of sums it up. These dialogues being successful and effective.
There's anything you want to say about that, with relation to
Focolare or what you said before [inaudible 00:15:46].

Imam Earl El-Amin: Yeah. I think I'm pretty well covered.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Okay. The final question. Did you learn anything else from this
experience you care to share?

Imam Earl El-Amin: With Focolare or the whole experience?

Tariq Najee-ullah: Everything.

Imam Earl El-Amin: That if, in fact, human beings can form strategic alliances, they
can impact the rest of the world. I think that, within the next few
years, that's what you'll see. Any strategic alliances across faith
traditions are going to be, are formed, and some are forming,
and they will have a profound impact on a lot of the society.
Especially the society's ills.

Tariq Najee-ullah: Is there anything else you'd like to share or comment?

Imam Earl El-Amin: That I thank God that I was able to, that he's allowed me to
participate at this level, and hopefully be able to impact other
people's lives going forward. To strictly adhere to the vision of
Imam W. D. Mohammed in doing so.

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Tariq Najee-ullah: I want to thank you for your time. I appreciate it, I know its been
a long Sunday.

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 APPENDIX 3

Paul
Bishop, Servant of the Servants of God,
Together with the Fathers of the Sacred Council
Commits to Permanent Record

THE DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH

TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS

(Translated by Thomas F. Stransky, CSP

and given to Tariq S. Najee-ullah to cite in his MA Thesis at Georgetown University)

1. In our time, when day by day humankind is being drawn ever closer together
and the ties between different peoples are being strengthened, the Church examines
with greater care her relation to non-Christian religions. In her task of fostering unity
and love among individuals, indeed among peoples, she considers above all in this
Declaration what human beings have in common and what draws them to live together
their destiny.
One is the community of all peoples, one their origin, for God made the whole
human race to live on all the face of the earth.i One also is their final goal, God. God’s
providence, manifestation of goodness, and saving designs extend to all,ii until that
time when the elect will be united in the Holy City, the city ablaze with the glory of
God, where the peoples will walk in its light.iii
One expects from the various religions answers to the profound enigmas of the
human condition, which today, even as of old, deeply stir human hearts: What is the
human being? What is the meaning, the purpose of our life? What is moral good, and
what is sin? Whence suffering and what purpose does it serve? Which is the way to
genuine happiness? What are death, judgment, and retribution after death? What,
finally, is that ultimate inexpressible mystery which encompasses our existence:
whence do we come, and where are we going?

2. Already from ancient times down to the present, there is found among various
peoples a certain perception of that mysterious power abiding in the course of nature
and in the happenings of human life; at times some indeed have come to the
recognition of a Supreme Being or even a Father. This perception and recognition
penetrate their lives with a profound religious sense. However, religions that are
intertwined with a developing culture have struggled to answer the same questions by
means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus, in Hinduism
men and women contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an
inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiries. They
seek freedom from the anguishes of our human condition either through ascetical

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practices or through profound meditation or through a flight to God with love and trust.
Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable
world; it teaches a way by which persons, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able
either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or to attain, by their own efforts or
through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere
try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by
proposing ways, comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites.
The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She
regards with sincere reverence those ways of acting and of living, those precepts and
teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the one she holds and sets
forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all. Indeed, she
proclaims, and ever must proclaim, Christ as “the Way, the Truth, and the Life” (Jn.
14:6), in whom men and women may find the fullness of religious life, and in whom
God has reconciled all things to Himself.iv
The Church therefore exhorts her sons and daughters to recognize, preserve, and
foster the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found
among the followers of other religions. This is done through conversations and
collaboration with them, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the
Christian faith and life.

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God,
who is living and subsisting in himself, merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of
heaven and earth,v who has spoken to humans; they strive to submit wholeheartedly
even to His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam is
gladly linked, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they
revere him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, his virgin mother; at times they even
call on her with devotion. Moreover, they look forward to the day of judgment when
God will reward all those raised up. For this reason, they value the moral life and
worship God, especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
In the course of centuries there have indeed arisen not a few quarrels and hostilities
between Christians and Muslims. But now this Sacred Synod pleads with all to forget
the past, to make sincere efforts for mutual understanding, and so to work together for
the preservation and fostering of social justice, moral welfare, and peace and freedom,
for all humankind.

4. As this Sacred Synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the
bonds that spiritually tie the people of the New Covenant to the offspring of Abraham.
Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God’s mysterious
saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are already found among the
Patriarchs, Moses and the Prophets. She professes that all who believe in the Christ,
Abraham’s children by faith,vi are included in this Patriarch’s call, and, likewise, that
the salvation of the Church is symbolically prefigured in the exodus of the chosen
people from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she

225
received the Revelation of the Old Testament through that people with whom God in
His ineffable mercy was pleased to enter into the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget
that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which
have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.vii Indeed, the Church believes that by
his cross Christ, who is our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles, and in Himself
making the two one.viii
The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsfolk: “To
them belong the adoption as children, and the glory, and the covenant, and the giving
of the law, and the worship, and the promises; to them belong the fathers and from
them is the Christ according to the flesh” (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary.
She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church’s foundation stones and pillars, as well as
most of the early disciples who proclaimed the Gospel of Christ to the world, sprang
from the Jewish people.
As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,ix
nor did the Jews, in large numbers, accept the Gospel; indeed, not a few of them
opposed its dissemination.x Nevertheless, now as before, God holds the Jews most dear
for the sake of their Fathers; he does not repent of the gifts he makes or revoke the call
he issues—such is the witness of the Apostle.xi In company with the Prophets and the
same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples
will address the Lord with a single voice and “serve him with one accord” (Zeph.
3:9).xii
Since the spiritual heritage common to Christians and Jews is thus so rich, this
Sacred Synod wishes to foster and commend mutual understanding and esteem. This is
the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies and of friendly conversations.
True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death
of Christ,xiii still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews,
without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is
the new people of God, the Jews should not be represented as rejected by God or
accursed, as if this followed from Holy Scripture. May all, then, should see to it that in
catechetical work and in preaching of the Word of God they teach nothing save what
conforms to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.
The Church, moreover, rejects all persecutions against any person. Mindful of the
inheritance she shares with the Jews, the Church decries hatreds, persecutions, and
manifestations of antisemitism directed against Jews at any time and by anyone. She
does so not impelled by political reasons, but moved by the spiritual love of the
Gospel.
Besides, Christ underwent his passion and death freely, out of infinite love, because
of the sins of humans in order that all might reach salvation. This the Church has
always taught and teaches still; it is therefore the duty of the Church to proclaim the
cross of Christ as the sign of God’s all-embracing love and as the fountain from which
every grace flows.

226
 5. We cannot truly call upon God, the Father of all, if we refuse to behave as
sisters and brothers with anyone, created as all are in the image of God. The relation of
man and woman to God, the Father, and their relation to their fellow human beings are
linked to such a degree that Holy Scripture says, “Whoever does not love does not
know God” (1 Jn. 4:8).
No foundation therefore remains for any theory or practice that leads to
discrimination between person and person and between people and people insofar as
their human dignity and the rights flowing from it are concerned.
The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination or
harassment against men or women because of their race or color, condition in life or
religion. On the contrary, following the footsteps of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul,
this Sacred Synod ardently implores the Christian faithful to “maintain good conduct
among the peoples” (1 Pet. 2:12), and, if possible, to live for their part in peace with
all,xiv so that they may truly be sons and daughters of the Father who is in heaven.xv

Each and every point stated in this Declaration has satisfied the Fathers of the Sacred
Council. And we, by the Apostolic Authority bestowed on us by Christ, together with
the venerable Fathers, approve it in the Holy Spirit, we decree it and we enact it; and
we order the promulgation, to God’s glory, of what has been enacted synodically.

Rome, in St. Peter’s Basilica

October 28, 1965
I, Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church
(The signatures of all council fathers present and voting on this day follow)

i
Cf. Acts 17:26.

ii
Cf. Wis. 8:1; Act. 14:17; Rom. 2:6-7; 1 Tim. 2:4.
iii
Cf. Rev. 21:23-24.
iv
Cf. 2 Cor. 5:18-19.
v
Cf. S. Gregory VII, Letter III, 21 to Anzir (Al-Nāşir), king of Mauritania, ed. E. Caspar in

MGH, Ep. sel. II, 1920, I, p. 288, 11-15; PL 148, 451 A.

vi
Cf. Gal. 3:7.
vii
Cf. Rom. 11:17-24.
viii
Cf. Eph. 2:14-16.
ix
Cf. Lk. 19:44.

227
 x
Cf. Rom. 11:28.
xi
Cf. Rom. 11: 28-29; VATICAN COUNCIL II, Const. dogm. De Ecclesia, Lumen gentium:

AAS 57 (1965), p. 20.

xii
Cf. Is. 66:23; Ps. 65:4; Rom. 11:11-32.
xiii
Cf. Jn. 19:6.
xiv
cf. Rom. 12:18.
xv
Cf. Mt. 5:45.

228
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