DOCUMENT RESUME

ED 105 312 CG 009 681

AUTHOR Brady, Thomas C.

TITLE A Study in the Application of the C. A. Curran
Counseling-Learning Model to Adults.
PUB DATE Jan 75
NOTE 175p.; Ph.D. Dissertation, Walden University

EDRS PRICE MF-$0.76 HC-$8.24 PLUS POSTAGE

DESCRIPTORS *Adult Learning; Changing Attitudes; *Counseling;
Learning Characteristics; *Learning Difficulties;
*Models; Perception; Research Projects; Self Concept;
*Values

ABSTRACT
The study attempts to demonstrate movement in adult
learning from particularization to symbolization to internalization
(value choice) through use of a Counseling-Learning Model. Adult
resistance to learning is dealt with through application of
counseling awarenesses to the learning situation. If the adult
learner can be freed from threat to self-identify in the learning
situation, he can learn with much the same ease with which the child
learns. This hypothesis was tested at two five-day
Counseling-Learning Institutes, one in the United States and one in
Canada. Subjects represented primarily the helping professions.
Significance of the study lies in the fact that in a relatively short
time (five days) significant change can be achieved in adult values.
Further research is needed to determine the permanency of value
change thus acquired. (Author)
 A STUDY IN THE APPLICATION OF THE C.A. CURRAN

COUNSELING-LEARNING MODEL TO ADULTS

By

Thomas C. Brady

B.A. St. Mary Seminary and University, 1950

M.A. Notre Dame University, 1959

M.R.Ed. Loyola University, 1969

, A
Ci4All
Daniel Tranel, Ph.D., Advisor
Associate Member of Counseling-Learning Institutes
Apple River, Illinois

A Dissertation Submitted in Partial Fulfillment of

The Requirements for the Degree of
Doctor of Philosophy

U S OEPARTME NT OF HEALTH.
EOLCATION /WELFARE
NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF
EDUCATION
THIS DOCUMENT HA. PEEN REPRO
DUCED EXACTLY AS RECEIVED FROM
THE PERSON OR ORGANIZATiOA ORIGIN
ATM° IT POINTS OF VIEW OR OPINIONS
STATED DO HOT NECESSARILY REPRE
Walden University SENT OFFICIAL NATIONAL INSTITU:E OF
FDUCATION POSITION OR POLICY
January, 1975
 Acknowledgments

Appreciation and gratitude is given to Father

Charles A. Curran for his inspiration and encouragement in

writing this dissertation in the area of Counseling-Learn-

ing.

Special appreciation is owed to Father Daniel

Tranel for his guidance and clarification of the ideas con-

tained in this work.

In the immediate production of this manuscript a

special recognition is given to my secretary, Val Casteg-

naro.

i
 Table of Contents

Page

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS

TABLE OF CONTENTS ii

LIST OF CHARTS iii

LIST OF GRAPHS iv

Chapter

I. INTRODUCTION 1

Purpose of the Study 1

Statement of the Problem 1

Hypothesis 4

Significance of the Study 4

Limitations of the Study 8

Definition of Terms 8

Summary 12

REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE 13

The Teacher-Student Relationship 13

Resistance to Learning 16

The Goal of Learning 19

Counseling-Learning Model 22

Self-Invested Learning 31

Summary 34

ii

4
Chapter Page

III. METHODS AND PROCEDURES 37

Selection of Population 37

Securing of Data 38

Panel of Judges 39

Summary 39

IV. TREATMENT AND FINDINGS OF DATA . 41

Sinsinawa Institute 41

Toronto Institute 42

Purpose of Graphing 43

Summary 52

V. SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS 53

Summary 53

Conclusions 55

Implications for Education 55

Implications for Research 57

Summary 57

APPENDICES 59

APPENDIX A 59

APPENDIX B 122

APPENDIX C 161

APPENDIX D 162

BIBLIOGRAPHY 164
 LIST OF CHARTS

Chart Page

1. Sinsinawa Institute - shows scores of three

small groups sampled on the first, third,
and fifth Institute days 44

2. Toronto Institute - shows scores of three

small groups sampled on the first and last
day of the Institute 45

iii
 LIST OF GRAPHS

Graph Page

1. Sinsinawa Institute - Group #1 46

2. Sinsinawa Institute - Group #2 47

3. Sinsinawa Institute - Group #3 48

4. Toronto Institute - Group #1 49

5. Toronto Institute - Group #2 50

6. Toronto Institute - Group #3 51

iv
 CHAPTER I

INTRODUCTION

Purpose of the Study

The purpose of this study is to demonstrate the pos-

sibility of more effective adult learning through a Counsel-

ing-Learning Model developed by C.A. Curran and implemented

at various Counseling-Learning Institutes conducted through-

out the United States and Canada. The study will attempt

to reveal certain stages and functions through which the

adult learner proceeds as he moves from a state of non -

knowing to one of internalized knowing, utilizing the con-

cepts and skills derived from counseling in the learning

relationship.

Statement of the Problem

It is a cliche to say that our age is depersonal-

ized. To deal effectively with this deperaonalization in

learning and in our personal relationships it is necessary

to investigate its source.

Curran has theorized that our modern culture is

heir to certain basic attitudes that affect our relating

with one another both as persons and in the learning pro-

cess. This cultural inheritance is unconscious and seems

to create four different but related attitudes toward the

61
 2

parson himself and his knowing and learning process: 1) the

person is dichotomized into intellect on the one side and

soma, instincts, and emotions on the other; 2) we tend to

operate in a mathematical problem-solving modality whereby

everything must be abstractly analyzed before being adopted

and trusted; 3) the problem-solving modality has become the

method of relating; and 4) the misunderstanding of the

methodic doubt to the extent that we supposedly come to

know and learn by doubting and questioning.'

The source and model of this implicit and uncon-

scious way of thinking can be traced back to the philosophy

of Descartes. It has deeply influenced our culture and has
had its effect on learning. There is a marked contrast be-

tween the enthusiasm with which the child learns and the

lack of enthusiasm with which adults learn. It appears

that adults often do not get through the learning process

without becoming resistant to further learning. It takes

only a short time for the school to make negative and bor-

ing what is positive and exciting in early learning.

Many men and women in the present day,

though they light subscribe to the notion
that "school days are the happiest days of
life", still carry some feelings about the
school they attended that range from mild
dissatisfaction to hatred and loathing.2

1Curran, C.A., Counseling-Learning A Whole Person

Model for Education. Grune & Stratton: New York and
London, 1972, p. 39.

2Kidd, J.R., How Adults Learn. Associated Press,

New York, 1959, p. 95.
 3

As a result, many adults seem unaYle to learn or, at Last,

to feel comfortable when learning, unless it takes place in

an atmosphere that is often painful, boring, embarrassing,

and generally negative.

It has frequently been claimed that the

worth of learning lies in the transformation
of the human personality through stern, dis-
agreeable, painful discipline Unfortunate-
ly, the effect is to cause most normal human
beings to recoil in disgust.l

Kidd has stated that unlike young people signifi-

cant problems faced by an adult do not have a "correct"

answer in the sense that the answer can be verified to the

point that doubt or uncertainty is removed. Most classroom

problems for young people have a "correct" answer in the

back of the book or elsewhere. The child comes to school

to learn what the school is teaching. The adult often
brings quite different views to the classroom from those

held by the teacher. This may result in conflict and cause

painful and generally negative feelings.2

The effort of this study is to show that adults can

learn with a minimum of resistance when the learning takes

place in an atmosphere where the educational process is

neither competitive nor selective. Internalized learning,

and operational knowing, is seen as taking place in an at-

mosphere of acceptance and understanding. According to

libid., p. 38.

2lbid.
 4

Curran, the educative process begins with the proposition

that persons seem to learn to the degree that they are

given a sense of self-worth and are convalidated by the per-

son who is the source and model of their learning, as well

as others engaged in the same learning experience.1

Hypothesis

As a result of a germination process in the small

group sessions of the Counseling-Learning Model, movement

from closure (particularization) to openness (symbolization)

and finally internalization of learning is facilitated.

Significance of the Study

Until recently, circa 1940, the school's main con-

cern has been with the education of children. Adult learn-

ing, as defined above, therefore, was not the central issue

in education. However, as we move into a new age where

greater knowledge is required by snore people for a more

purposeful life, adult education has become a central con-

cern. The issue is one of how one adult can teach another

with the least resistance to learning, i.e., how a knower

can communicate his knowledge to other adults without

creating a threat to their self-concept.

This study involves a practical application to

rommnamomwe

1Curran, C.A., Counseling-Learning A Whole Person

Model for Education. Grune & Stratton: New York and
London, 1972, p. 20.
adult learning of the Counseling-Learning Model developed

by C.A. Curran. The study is significant in that this model

has been used for the past three years at Institutes through-

out the United States and Canada and it is the first attempt

to measure the outcome. The study seems to show that the

Counseling-Learning Model in its practical application can

overcome resistance to adult learning through an inherent

movement from STAGE I through STAGE V.

Through preliminary research in foreign languages,

from which the Counseling-Learning Model was drawn, Curran

has theorized that internalized learning seems to take

place in a five stage process. Significant of the five

stages of learning is an interrelationship between teacher-
knower and student-learners. In this relationship, a coun-
seling dynamic is established that is creative for both the

teacher and the learners. Perhaps the clearest way to de-

scribe the five stages of the learning process is in the

learning of a foreign language, since it was in this area

that the research was conducted.'

In Stage I, the learner is accepted in his anxiety

by the knower as the client is accepted by the counselor in

psychological counseling. The knower is both the under-

standing counselor on whom the learner can depend for know-

ledge of the foreign language and acceptance in his non-

knowing condition, as well as the ideal the learner aspires

lIbid., p. 128.
 6

to internalize through the learning process. This stage is

also referred to as the "Embryonic Stage." The initial

anxiety of the learner and his need for security can be

compared to the security a mother affords her child .1

The security and warmth that the teacher-knower

gives the learner in Stage I enables him t ig. asserting

himself in speaking a few short phrases in the foreign lan-

guage. The learner is then the less anxious and is able to

move into Stage II, also referred to as the "Self-Assertion

Stage. "2

Stage III can be considered the "Birth Stage" or

"Separate Existence Stage." At this stage in the foreign

language learning process, the learner can speak the foreign

language and be understood without the assistance of the

teacher-knower. He refers to the teacher-knower only when

he needs help with a word or phrase. Characteristic of the

later part of this stage is the student-learner's resistance

to too much help from the teacher-knower after he has ac-

quired some facility in the language. He desires his sep-

arateness and struggles for nis own identity in the lan-

guage.3

In Stage IV, a crucial transition must take place

between the knower and the learner. The relationship be-

'Ibid., p. 130.

2Ibid., pp. 131-132.

3
Ibid., pp. 133-134.
 7

tween learner and knower changes and this stage is referred

to as the "Reversal Stage." Up to this time, the knower-
teacher, or teacher-counselor, can easily accept his role

as knower in relation to the student-client. An atmosphere

of total trust and commitment pervades the relationship and

he is completely at ease with him. The student-client also

trusts and is at ease with the knower. But at the end of
Stage III, the knower-learner relationship gradually begins

to change with the learner's struggle for independence.

Conscious of the learner's struggle for independ-

ence, the knower acts cautiously and no longer completely

trusts or is at ease with the learner who increasingly re-

sists the expertise of the knower. The relationship is now

reversed. If the learner desires to acquire further refine-

ments and subtleties in the foreign language, he must assume

the role of the understanding and accepting counselor in

relation to the teacher-knower who is now the client. If

the now teacher-client does not receive acceptance and

understanding from the learner, he tends to withdraw from

further giving of his knowledge out of fear of rejection .1

In Stage V, the learner is independnt of the

knower. Theoretically, the learner knows all that the

knower has to teach and is mimetic to him, having internal-

ized creatively what he stands for. In Stage V, the learner

has become a knower and can counsel other less advanced

lIbid., p. 134.
 8

learners. In reaching Stage V, the learner has progressed

from client-learner to counselor-knower-learner to expert-

knower.1

Limitations of the Study

1. The study is made of the Counseling-Learning

Model over a five-day Institute, rather than, for example,

an entire semester. It was conducted, therefore, in a

somewhat capsulized form.

2. The study is limited to two Institutes with a

population made up predominantly of a professional popula-

tion. The issue is to what extent such a population repre-

sents the learning motivation of the general population.

3. The study is limited to the extent that it does

not determine the permanency of the value choice the

learners make resulting from the process at the end of five

days. A follow-up study would be needed to determine this.

Definition of Terms According to Curran

Adult: Psychologically an adult is a person who

has attained a self-concept. The adult differs from the

child in the learning process in that the adult, because

of his self-concept, tends to be defensive in relation to a

threat to his identity. He is thus in a paradox: by defend-

ing his self-concept (ego) he defeats new learning; and by

lIbid., p. 134.

1:)
 9

giving up his self-concept in order to learn (as with the

child) he would seem to lose his identity.

Client-Knower: (teacher) who strives to communicate

his knowledge. This is parallel to the client in psycholog-

ical counseling who, in speaking of his emotional diffi-

culties needs to be understood by the counselor. The dif-

ference is that in the teaching-learning relationship, the

knower as client is centrally cognitive and only peripheral-

ly affective.

Client-Learner: The learner is accepted as a client

in Stages I, II, and III in his anxiety about the learning

experience. To offset this anxiety on the part of the

learner, the knower, trained in the skills of counseling,

becomes the counselor.

Convalidation: A mutual relationship in which the

persons involved convey to each other a sense of each one's

unique worth and dignity. The expression, "consensual vali-

dation," from Harry Stack Sullivan, has been combined into

the one word, "convalidation."1

Counseling-Learning: is a term used to designate a

unified concept of the educational process. The terms

"counseling" and "learning" are seen as parts of an inter-

related process. Therefore, we do not speak of counseling

as a process totally separate from learning. The end pro-

duct of a unified "counseling-learning" process would be an

lIbid., p. 2.

1 6
 10

observable operational integration and personal awareness

that the learner has about persons, things, and areas of

knowledge beyond himself.1

Counseling-Learning Model: The process in which

the awarenesses derived from counseling are incorporated

into the learning situation. Knowledge from counseling-

therapy has revealed that the client is often threatened

around his particular feelings. Similarly, the learner in

Stages I, II, and III parallels this state and is in need

of the same sensitive acceptance and understanding as the

client in therapy. Therefore, in the first three learning

stages, the knower is the counselor. In Stages IV and V,

the knower becomes the client and the learners are the

counselors.

Counselor: The learner, who struggles to understand

the knowledge of the client-knower in Stages IV and V.

Knower: One who is an expert in his particular

field of study. In the Counseling-Learning Model, in

Stages IV and V, the knower would be the client who is the

expert in his area of knowledge and expects understanding

from the learners.

Mimetic Relationship: In the learning relationship,

an individual learner, or group of learners, strives to know

and, therefore to learn, what the teacher knows. This striv-

ing constitutes a mimetic bind. In this mimetic sense, the

Ibid., p. 11.
 11

learning relationship is determined by what the knower

stands for or represents. It is the learner's awareness of

this which brought him to the learning relationship in the

first place. In turn, it is the teacher's knowledge in a

particular area which validates his position and determines

the nature of his mimesis. In this, the learning relation-

ship between teacher and student clearly differs from the

relationship of counseling or therapy where the client

studies himself through the therapist.1

Particularization: The anxious and somewhat nar-

rowed condition in which the client, because of an affective

bind, is minimally cognitive. He is seemingly enslaved by

his primitive feelings. This condition may be verbalized

by the client in a statement such as, "I can't see the

forest for the trees."

Symbolization: When the counselor adequately

"cognizes" the client's affective communication, the client

gives a broader perspective of his situation, i.e., he is

given a symbol by the counselor which frees him from his

narrowed, particularized state.

Self-Investment: (Internalization?. Having had

his affect symbolized through the response of the counselor,

the client is then freed to make a choice around what he

now sees. He may opt to continue his investment in his

present value system, or he may decide to change his value

lIbid., p. 101.
 12

system.

Understanding: Rather than being a purely intel-

lectualized process which often involves "figuring out" in

the mathematical model, understanding involves the effort

of the learner-counselor to enter into the world of the

knower-client in order to see his world as he sees it.

The issue of agreeing or disagreeing with the knower is not

considered to be of importance.

Summary

The goal of this study is to demonstrate that C.A.

Curran's Counseling-Learning Model provides a useful new

method for coping with adults' resistance to learning.

The familiar issue of depersonalization in our time

is one faced by educators and learners. The intent of this

study is to show how adults tend to learn more readily in

non-competitive, non-selective situations.

Through a germinational process in small group

sessions of the Counseling-Learning Model, movement from

closure (particularization) to openness (symbolization) and

finally internalization of learning is facilitated.

A relatively new emphasis on the need of adult edu-

cation for a more purposeful life warrants the investigation

of all potentially useful learning methods. This study

seems to demonstrate that the practical application of the

Counseling-Learning Model can be effective in overcoming

adult resistance to learning.

1 j
 CHAPTER II

REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE

Since the central purpose of this paper is to dem-

onstrate how adults can arrive at self-invested, internal-

ized learning through the Counseling-Learning Model, the re-

view of the literature will be primarily concerned with the

following areas: 1. The Teacher-Student Relationship.

2. Resistance to Learning. 3. The Goal of Learning.

4. A Counseling Model for Learning. 5. Self-Invested

Learning.

The Teacher-Student Relationship

As indicated in the Statement of the Problem,

(Chapter I) historically any direct personal relationship

between the teacher and student was either considered un-

important for learning, or else was relegated to a separate

area called counseling. Bergevin has commented that this

kind of depersonalized teacher-student relationship has been

followed without much change since antiquity. Simply stated,

the teacher taught subjects rather than persons. The teacher

who knows tells or shows one who doesn't know. If the learn-

er is smart, it may not take long to teach him; if he is not

so smart, the task may have to be repeated. With this idea

the learner is "used" to learn the subject. He is a vessel

 14

into which certain information is transferred.'

Freire addressed himself to the issue of lack of

direct personal relationship with the students when he sum-

marized education today as

...an act of depositing, in which the

students are the depositories and the
teacher is the depositor. Instead of com-
municating, the teacher issues communiques
and makes deposits which the students
patiently receive, memorize, and repeat.
This is the "banking" concept of education
in which the scope of the action allowed
the students extends only as far as re-
ceiving, filing, and storing the deposits.2

Historically, counseling and learning were con-

sidered as two distinct functions, each with its own pur-

pose, and the two were seldom regarded as integrally related

and ancillary to one another. Consequently, the amount of

literature concerned with how counseling and learning might

be interwoven to provide an effective teacher-student rela-

tionship is meager. While educators and psychologists are

more and more aware of the significance of a personal rela-

tionship in the teaching-learning process, the nature of

that relationship is not clearly dcaineated. B. Othanel

Smith seems to substantiate this claim when he statedi

Our knowledge of the act of teaching

as well as that of taking instruction is
meager. Neither of these acts has been
investigated sufficiently to justify,

1P. Bergevin, A Philosophy For Adult Education. The

Seabury Press, New York, 1967, p. 89.
2
Paulo Freire, Pedagogy of the Oppressed. trans. by
Myra Bergman Ramos. (New York: Herder and Herder), 1970,
p. 58.
21
 15

from a scientific standpoint, fundamental

changes in teaching. We have considerable
knowledge of how human learning occurs, al-
though much of it comes by extrapolation
from studies of animal learning. The
amount of adjustment in our current theo-
ries of learning which verbal behavior and
cognitive processes may require is some-
thing about which we can only guess. We
do not even know how accurately our learn-
ing theory describes what occurs in this
act of taking instruction.].

Knowles has stated as recently as 1972 that, in

searching the literature, he has discovered "that we know a

lot more about the learning processes of rats and pigeons

than about those of children, and that we know very little

about the processes of adults."2

Elsewhere Knowles observes that there are still a

lot of gaps in our knowledge about the teaching of adults

or, to be more specific, about helping them learn: "I am

convinced that learning is the product of interaction be-.

tween an individual and his environment, but I don't think

we know very well what the characteristics of an environ-

ment are that facilitate or inhibit learning."3 He then

1B. Othanel Smith, "A Concept of Teaching,"

Philosophical Essays on Teaching. Edited by Bertram Band-
man and Robert S. Guttchen, J. P. Lippincott Co.. Phila-
delphia. New York. p. 13.

2Malcolm S. Knowles, "The Relevance of Research for

the Adult Education Teacher/Trainer." "Research in Adult
Education." Edited by Griffith, W.S. Adult Leadership,
Vol. 20, No. 8. February, 1972, pp. 270-272.

3lbid.
 16

asked the question: "What would --- in Howard McClusky's

terms --- an educative community really be like?"'

We see in the above statements of Smith and Knowles

the recognition of a missing element in the present teach-

ing-learning relationship, and a need to supply this ele-

ment. In studies of animal learning, for instance, from

which much of human learning theory has been derived, the

relationship between the animal and its human teacher is

most often secondary to the outcome of learning.

Resistance to Learning

In developing the Counseling-Learning Model, the

question of resistance to learning, particularly in adults,

had to be investigated. Here again, the literature in this

area is meager. While the issue of resistance to learning

is as old as education itself, the attempts to deal with it

have not been particularly fruitful. As a result of our

Kantian cultural heritage, students who "refused" to learn

were often considered "bad-willed." This seems to be a

somewhat over-simplified response to the issue and, more

recently, particularly since Dewey, the efforts to cope

with learning resistance have become more sophisticated.

Still, M.D. Caplin has stated that the psychology of learn-

ing offers little help in this area. "Since resistance is

a major problem in learning, one would hope that psychology

'Ibid.

9;3
 17

of learning could provide some leads. But, unfortunately,

the field of learning theory has contributed little to the

classroom teacher."1

Any discussion of the educative process for adults

has to start with a basic resistance to change that precipi-

tates conflict, hostility, and anxiety to learning. Adults

desire to be secure and to keep things as they are in a

changing, moving, developing world creates an ambivalence in

them. Some psychological security appears necessary to the

full development of the human person. However, when it be-

comes the most important objective, it can impede learning.2

Otto Rank has claimed that students who strongly re-

sist knowledge are those who consistently struggle to main-

tain their separateness.

Persons tend to resist change when

new ideas conflict with the perceptions
they have of themselves and the world in
which they live. In an effort to main-
tain one's self concepts, he ignores var-
ious aspects of his experience which con-
flicts with his concepts and selects per-
ceptions which tends to confirm it. The
reactions are neither conscious or delib-
erate.i

What Ranks seems to be describing, is a basically threaten-

1M. D. Caplan, "Resistance to Learning," Peabody

Journal of Education, Vol. 47, No. 1, July, 1969, p. 38.

2P. Bergevin, A Philosophy for Adult Education.

The Seabury Press, New York, 1967, p. 92.

30tto Rank, Will Therapy and Truth and Reality. New

York: Alfred A. Knopfs, 1945, p. 153.

94
 18

ing confrontation that takes place in genuine learning.

Combs and Snygg concur in this.

Kidd also addressed himself to the basic self-

resistance to new knowledge. "The inward struggle, the

need to cover up our shortcomings from others, and partic-

ularly from ourselves, leads to a defensive behavior which

deeply affects our freedom to engage in the adventure of

learning."1

The implications of change have been recognized as

inherent in any concept of learning. This change may mean

a rejection or an alteration of previously accepted beliefs

or behavior.

Change, or the idea of change can be

frightening---threatening to rob us of
safety and legitimacy of our own, often
cherished, position, especially since main-
taining this position has helped us to sur-
vive. When change is advocated or demanded
by another person, we feel threatened, de-
fensive, and perhaps rushed. We are then
without the freedom and the time to under-
stand and to affirm the new learning as
something desirable and as something of
our own choosing.

Kidd has stated that the learner defends the self

and what he knows by setting up a sort of filtering system

1J. R. Kidd, How Adults Learn. Associated Press,

New York, 1.959.

2Morimoto Kyo, "Notes on the Context for Learning,"

Harvard Educational Review. Vol. 43, No. 2, May, 1973.
 19

by which all new experiences symbolizc.-7 and organized into

some relationship to the self, are ignored because there is

no perceived relationship, or are denied organization or

given a different meaning because the experience is not

consistent with the image of the self.1

Browning stated that "knowledge by suffering

entereth."2 We tend to resist knowledge which threatens

our stance and demands change. This might be called self-

defeat that seems to take place in learning, and especially,

adult learning, and has prompted 0. Mowrer to make the com-

ment that adults in somewhat of a neurotic way have

"learned how not to learn."3

The Goal of Learning

Educators today seem to be searching for a process

which produces learning that truly does make a difference in

persons. Rogers has stated, in effect, that the knowledge

of facts or simply intellectual learning does not constitute

education.

Simple knowledge of facts has its val-

ue. To know who won the battle of Poltava,
or when the umpteenth opus of Mozart was
first performed, may win $64,000 or some
other sum for the possessor this inform-

1
J. R. Kidd, How Adults Learn. Associated Press,
New York, 1959.
2
Browning, A Vision of Poets. Concluding verse 820.
3
0rval H. Mowrer, Psychotherapy - Theory and Re-
search. The Ronald Press Company, New York, 1953, p. 147.

93
 20

ation, but I believe educators in general

are a little embarrassed by the assumption
that the acquisition of such knowledge con-
stitutes education.1

Freire has commented that education is suffering

from "narration sickness" because the teacher, in the role

of narrating subject, presents content to students, serving

as patient listening objects, with the result that the ma-

terial learned becomes "lifeless and petrified."2

Rogers has spoken rather forcefully about the need

to change the goal of education if we are to survive. He

has stated that the goal of education must be the "facilita-

tion of change and learning."

The only man who is educated is the man

who has learned how to learn; the man who
has learred how to adapt and change; the
man who has realized that no knowledge is
secure, that only the process of seeking
knowledge gives a basis for security.
Changingness, a reliance on process rather
than static knowledge, is the only thing
that makes any sense as a goal for educa-
tion in the modern world.3

Toffler stated that what has happened with subject

matter education must now happen with values education.

Traditionally, subject matter has been regarded as the end

of education. With the ever increasing amount of knowledge,

no one can keep pace with it. As a result, the emphasis has

lCarl R. Rogers, On Becoming A Person, Houghton

Mifflin Company, Boston, 1961, p. 281.

2Paul Freire, Pedagogy Of The Oppressed, trans. by

Myra Bergman Ramos (New York: Herder and Herder), 1970, p. 57.

3Carl R. Rogerse Freedom to Learn, Charles E. Merrill

Publishing Company, Columbus, Ohio, 1969, p. 104.
 21

been changed from what to learn to how to learn. The shift

has been made from content to process. Learning how to

learn has become more important than the specific facts and

concepts learned.1

De Vries has referred to the educational process

itself as one of interaction in contrast to a problem-solv-

ing one. "The aim is not to solve problems for people but

rather to develop people so that they will be able to solve

their own problems. The focus of this education is thus on

people rather than on problems.2

Rogers decries the fact that the vast majority of

our eductors are teaching with a curriculum which produces

material that amounts to perplexing and meaningless nonsense

syllables. He stresses the need for significant learning

which has the quality of personal involvement whereby the

whole person is involved in both his feeling and his cogni-

tive aspects in the learning event. Rogers has stated that

he believes...

...that all teachers and educators

prefer to facilitate this experiential
and meaningful type of learning, rather
than the nonsense syllable type. Yet in

lAlvin Toffler, Learning for Tomorrow - The Role of

the Future in Education. Vintage Books. A Division of
Random House/New York, 1974, pp. 246-7.
2
James De Vries, "Toward a More Humanistic View of
Development: Adult Education Role, Adult Education Forum."
Adult Education - A Journal of Research and Theory in Adult
Education, Vol. 23, No. 3, Spring, 1973, pp. 234
 22

the vast majority of our schools, at all

educational levels, we are locked into
a traditional approach which makes sig-
nificant learning improbable if not im-
po'Isible.1

Rogers is quick to point out that it is not because

of any inner depravity or bad will that educators continue

to follow what appears to be a self-defeating system.

Educators simply do not have at their disposal any feasible

alternative. For Rogers, there can be no definition of

education which does not include the element of meaning.

When learning takes place, the element of meaning to the

learner is built into the whole experience."2

Counseling-Learning Model

The Counseling-Learning Model involves an educative

process that is focused on a delicate relationship between

teacher and student with all the complex subtleties this

implies, rather than a highly intellectualized process with

emphasis on discipline, study habits, memorization, and

similar concepts. It is a process which attempts to go be-

yond the learning of mere facts. It is modeled after a

counseling-therapy model which seems to bring about self-

invested learning.

The Counseling-Learning Model seems to adhere to the

'Carl R. Rogers, Freedom to Learn, Charles Merrill

Publishing Company, Columbus, Ohio, 1969, p.4.

2lbid.

3
 23

definition of process, "A particular method of doing some-

thing, generally involving a number of steps or operations."1

The Counseling-Learning Model involves a series of stages

and functions through which the learner passes as he moves

from a state of non-knowing to one of knowing.

We mentioned previously, in discussing resistance

to learning, that a basic confrontation seems to take place

in a person if genuine learning is to occur. This confronta-

tion can threaten the learner to the point where he defeats

learning by closing himself off and resisting knowledge and

self-awareness that he often needs.

The Counseling-Learning Model has taken into account

the confrontation and threat that new knowledge seems to

cause in a person. It appears to provide a new design which

enables the learner to move toward more meaningful learning

and maturity because the learner's self-worth is convali-

dated by the teacher and he can perceive new knowledge for

what it is and not as threatening. "The condition for ef-

fective learning is a self that is so constituted, and so

self-understood that even changes or a reorganization of

that self can be faced without fear or flight."2 Learning

1webster's New Twentieth Century of the English

Language, Unabridged. (2nd ed.) The World Publishing
Company, Cleveland and New York, 1967.

2J. R. Kidd, How Adults Learn. Associated Press,

New York, 1959, pp. 52-3.

00
 24

in this model would seem to center around persons deeply en-

gaged with one another in an atmosphere of profound mutual

respect.

The Counseling-Learning Model has been derived from

the counseling-therapy relationship. In this study there

has been an attempt to demonstrate its application to educa-

tion.

An increasing number of schools, universities, in-

dustries, and other institutions are finding that clinical

psychological counseling is a format through which clients

can meet learning needs more effectively.1

In management production attempts have been made to

help managers become better skilled at helping individuals

in communicating more effectively, in counseling, and in

dealing with situations involving tension and conflict.

Kidd stated that in these studies all the factors mentioned

are operating when the task is learning just as when the

task is production.2

Our age has often been described as depersonalized.

We seem to be moving out of this age with a new thrust that

gives persons a sense of self-worth and meaning. According

to recent literature present educational methods are still

influenced to a considerable degree by some basic concepts

1Malcolm S. Knowles, The Modern Practice of Adult

Education - Androgogy Versus Pedagogy. Associated Press,
New York, 1970, p. 135.
2j. R. Kidd, How Adults Learn. Associated Press,
New York, 1959.
 25

inherited from the "pure" intellectualism of Descartes and

Kant.

The Cartesian dichotomy conceived the psyche as

highly intellectual and removed from somatic and emotional

tones. Although we have discarded this dichotomy for the

most part, we seem to be unconsciously influenced by it as

Bergevin seems to indicate when he commented that from an-

tiquity, and without much change, the teacher taught subjects

rather than persons.'

In an effort to emphasize that the educative process

is not only an intellectual exercise, Kidd has quoted a well-

known psychologist, L.M. Frank, from an address in which he

stated:

The dilemma of education arises from

a belief in man as a rational being in whom
emotion can be controlled by reason and in-
telligence. Educational programs shrink
from any frank acceptance of the underlying
personality makeup and emotional reactions
of students as entering into the educational
situation because to do so would bring wide-
spread collapse of the whole educational
philosophy and undermining of approved ped-
agogy.2

Tranel has made the comment that Cartesian-Kantian

view of man has left him with a disunified view of himself,

and because of this, counseling has become a matter of

interest and concern to the educator. The educator's task

'P. Bergevin, A Philosophy for Adult Education. The

Seabury Press, New York, 1967, p. 89.

2J. R. Kidd, How Adults Learn. Associated Press,

New York, 1959, p. 94.
 26

becomes more than one of simply giving information to the

student. Perhaps his primary concern should be with healing

the rift between the psyche and the soma that seems to exist

within the student. Tranel has also commented that focusing

on intellectual content does not bring about this healing.

It appears that the learner is not always in a state of

readiness to accept factual knowledge. Counseling skills

seem to help create the psychological climate necessary to

meet this state of readiness on the part of the learner.1

Knowles has stated the psychological climate for

adult learning is very important. It should be a climate

which causes adults to feel accepted, respected, and sup-

ported, in which there exists a spirit of mutuality where

there is freedom of expression without fear of ridicule. A

person tends to feel more "adult" in an atmosphere that is

friendly and where he is valued as a unique individual.2

The Counseling-Learning Model then as seen in the

literature is not concerned simply with the intellectual

aspects of man, but also with the emotional, instinctive,

and somatic aspects. It is concerned with the atmosphere of

knowing in open and warm belonging and sharing between

teacher-knower and student-learner. To bring about this

1D. D. Tranel, Counseling Concepts Applied to the

Process of Education. (Unpublished Ph.D. Dissertation,
University of Loyola, Chicago, 1970.). r. 31.
2
Malcolm S. Knowles, The Modern Practice of Adult
Education - Androgogy Versus Pedagogy. Associated Press,
New York, 1970, p. 135.
 27

atmosphere many of the skills of counseling-therapy have

been incorporated into the learning process.

Morimoto has substantiated the need for skills

associated with counseling-therapy in the educative process

in the following statement:

The teaching learning process is complex

and, to enhance the student's learning, calls
for particular skills and understandings on
the part of the teacher. Among these are
the skill of listening and the understanding
of the concept' of ambivalence and the ex-
perience of change.

Listening is crucial in creating a con-

text for learning. When we speak of the
importance of listening to one another, we
sometimes overlook the complexity and the
discipline involved: listening requires more
than a warm and accepting attitude. Con-
cern and caring are indeed important parts
of listening: concern for the other's in-
tegrity and dignity as an individual, car-
ing for his unique efforts to make meaning
and to communicate that meaning. Our con-
cern and caring are affected and influenced
by our individual biases and values. It is
important, then, that we understand as fully
as possible the nature and extent of these
influences on our capacity to listen.1

The Counseling-Learning Model which has incorporated

the counseling-therapy skills is in sharp contrast to the

highly intellectualized process of education that our cul-

ture seems to have inherited. The Model seems to bring the

teacher into an incarnate relationship with the learners.

Kidd has stated that the importance of a whole per-

son relationship between the teacher and student is essential.

1
Kyo Morimoto, "Notes on the Context for Learning."
Harvard Educational Review, Vol. 45, No. 2, May, 1973.
 28

He commented that the main protagonists in the teaching

learning experience are the learner and the teacher. He

proposed questions about the learner and teacher to empha-

size the need of a relationship. What are the learner's

perceptions about the need for change? How deep is his un-

easiness, his dissatisfaction with the present, or his de-

sire for the new? What are the inhibitions to learning that

he brings, his resistance to change, his refuge in the pre-

sent?

Like the learner questions can also be asked of the

teacher for he brings a great deal more to the transaction

than his mastery of the subject matter. Does he have

awareness of the continuity, or the interaction involved?

Does he look on the encounter with another self, or perceive

himself simply as a transmission system for presenting ma-

terial? Kidd went on to say that perhaps nothing is more

demeaning than the self-image a teacher may have of himself

as being simply a repoaitory of facts or ideas. The teacher

must understand his own needs, his need to control people,

his need for affection, or his fear of hostility from the

learner. He must be able to accept the learner as a person

and not just as a pupil.'

What appears to be unique in the Counseling-Learning

Model is that in this learning process the counseling skills

1J. R. Kidd, How Adults Learn. Associated Press,

New York, 1959, pp. 271-2.

3 tJ
 29

are not simply used by the teacher-knower in relationship to

the student-learner. But the opposite is also true whereby

the student-learner exercises these same skills in his

learning relationship with the teacher-knower. In this in-

carnate, mutually redemptive, learning relationship there is

no inferior--superior relationship, but a community where

knower and learner are of equal value and mutually convali-

dated by one another.

As we have mentioned, the Counseling-Learning Model

developed by Curran is really unique insomuch as the counsel-

ing-therapy skills are used by the student-learner as well

as the teacher-knower in the learning relationship. In re-

searching the literature it was found that there appears to

be an increasing emphasis placed on the teacher-knower's

need to acquire skills that will produce a good rapport be-

tween himself and the student-learner in order to produce a

more meaningful learning experience. However, there appears

to be no significant research, other than that made by

Curran, which emphasizes a community learning process in

which both teacher-knower and student-learner exercise

counseling-therapy skills.

A recent article in Psychology Today on behavioral

modification seems to allude to the need for developing

skills by the student-learner which enable him to validate

the teacher-knower in the learning process. The article

described how a teacher took upon himself the task of train-

ing an "incorrigible" class to become behavior engineers.

36
 30

Behavior engineering was described as systematic use of con-

sequences to strengthen or weaken behavior. The students

were trained to reward teachers with smiles and comments

when he behaved to their liking and to turn away when he

treated them harshly. The article disclosed that:

The revolutionizing thing about this

situation is that the behavior techniques
are in the hands of the learners and not
controlled by the establishment. It was
referred to as a kind of Rogerian use of
behavior modification. The reinforce-
ments used encouraged the teacher to like
the student who gave him a feeling of ac-
complishment, with the hope that.it would
lead to a better relationship between them.1

It has been previously mentioned (p. 29) that in

the Counseling-Learning Model there can develop a community

of learning where no one has any special power over another.

In fact, there appears to be just the opposite when the

knower and learners are seen as having equal value and im-

portance to each other. The classical notion of the teacher

being a person who is "sick to teach" might capture how

truly handicapped the teacher is when no one cares or is in-

terested in the knowledge in possesses.

Student-learners who are aware of the teacher-knower's

need to be understood in what he knows and are willing to en-

ter into an implicit contract to learn what he knows render

the teacher-knower an invaluable service. He will then per-

1Farnum Gray, Paul S. Graubard & Harry Rosenberg,

"Little Brother is Changing You," Psychology Today. March,
1974, pp. 42-46.

31
 31

ceive himself not simply a repository of facts or ideas,

which in itself can be demeaning, but a person truly in an

encounter with other persons in which he can be open to

creative fulfillment which could be his greatest need.

Self-Invested Learning

This part of the Review of the Literature is con-

cerned with how the Counseling-Learning Model involves the

student-learner as the source and center of learning and

how his commitment to the process is the manner by which

he becomes self-invested in, or internalizes, what he

learns.

The Counseling-Learning Model does not exact an ex-

ternal conformity to the teacher-knower's ideas, or, as

Rogers describes, as "nonsense syllables," so as to repro-

duce knowledge when demanded by competition and testing.

There is unquestionably a basic knowledge of facts needed

for almost all facets of life. However, the Model is more

concerned with the internalization of what is learned.

Not everything that is taught can or

should be expanded into a life value. How-
ever, for those values, processes, and mo-
tives we do want internalized, how we teach
and what we measure should be directly re-
lated to internalization. Unfortunately,
most of what students are graded for in
school is only indirectly related to inter-
nalization.1

1
Alfred S. Alschuler, Diane Tabor, James McIntyre,
Teaching Achievement Motivation - Theory and Practice in
Psychological Education. Education Ventures, Inc., Middle-
town, Connecticut, 1970, p. 85.

3O
 32

In the Counseling-Learning Model the student-learner

does not simply commit himself to the teacher-knower's ideas

but, exercising the skills of counseling-therapy, he aban-

dons himself in faith and trust to the teacher-knower which

is necessary to the learning process if self-invested learn-

ing is to be achieved.

According to Kidd, "It has been well established

that learning a skill happens with greatest effect if the

practice of that skill is carried out under actual conditions

and in the actual setting. "1 It appears that once the skills

of counseling-therapy are adequately learned and exercised

in the Counseling-Learning Model a community learning exper-

ience seems to take place. In a profound engagement where

both teacher-knower and student-learner are mutually vali-

dated by one another as having a true sense of worth, self-

invested learning seems to come forth.

Invested learning seems to come from persons in pro-

found relationship where there is the warm and deep sense of

belonging and sharing with another rather than from books or

in response to tests or failing grades. Kidd quoted Goethe

to demonstrate how the teacher's relationship with the stu-

dent truly facilitates learning and invests it with profound

personal meaning...

...to teach is to love. And in the

final analysis, Goethe said, we learn only

1J. R. Kidd, How Adults Learn. Associated Press,

New York, 1959, p. 98.
 33

from those whom we love...My greatest teach-

ers have been lovers. The very interests I
have in this world I can trace directly, in
almost all cases, to the moments when my
teachers with love and reverence spoke to us
of some great figure or event ...1

Perhaps a review of the literature on the subject of

this paper would appear incomplete without some reference to

B.F. Skinner, particularly since his concept of operant con-

ditioning has had such wide influence, both negative and

positive, in educational circles. But because Skinner's

view of the nature of man is diametrically opposed to the

one taken in this paper and on which the Counseling-Learning

Model hinges, he has little to add. While the view of the

nature of man postulated by the Counseling-Learning Model is

that man is free, Skinner takes the opposite view:

The hypothesis that man is not free is

essential to the application of scientific
method to the study of human behavior.
The free inner man who is held responsi-
ble for the behavior of the external bio-
logical organism is only a pre-scientific
substitute for the kinds of causes which
are discovered in the course of a scienti-
fic analysis. All these alternative causes
lie outside the individual.4

This is not to say, however, that certain forms of

behavior modification as adaptations of operant conditioning

cannot be applied to the Counseling-Learning Model. As men-

tioned earlier (p. 30) a variation of behavior modification

lIbid., p. 98.
2
B. F. Skinner, Science and Human Behavior. New
York: Macmillan Company, 1953, p. 447.
 34

has been adapted to a more successful teacher-student re-

lationship.

Summary

The Review of the LiterrAure is centered in five

areas: The Teacher-Student Relationship, Resistance to

Learning, The Goal of Learning, A Counseling Model for

Learning, and Self-Invested Learning.

Counseling and learning have generally been con-

sidered two distinct functions, each with its own purpose.

The two were seldom regarded as integrally related to one

another. Consequently, the amount of literature relating

counseling and learning to provide a more effective teacher-

student relationship is meager.

Little is known about the teacher-learner relation-

ship. There seems to be more knowledge about the learning

proce3ses of animals than those of children and very little

about the process of adult learning.

While the issue of resistance to learning is as old

as education itself there seems to be little help in this

area from the psychology of learning. Persons seem to re-

sist change that would conflict with the perception they

have of themselves. In an effort to maintain one's self-

concept, a person tends to resist knowledge that conflicts

with his concepts and tends to select perceptions that con-

firm it..

Educators today seem to be searching for a process

 35

which produces learning that does make a difference. Learn-

ing that is more than simply learning facts. They are seek-
ing a process that has as its goal value learning whereby

one invests in what he learns.

The Counseling-Learning Model seems to take into

account the confrontation and threat that new knowledge

seems to cause in a person. It begins with the proposition

that a person learns in proportion to the degree that his

sense of self-worth is convalida4'nd by the person whom he

sees as the source and model of 1.rning. In the model,

teacher and student are deeply engaged with one another in

an atmosphere of profound mutual respect.

The Counseling-Learning Model has incorporated the

counseling-therapy skills and sharply contrasts the highly

intellectualized process of education. In the counseling-
1 earning process there is a community which implies genuine

communication, an open trustworthiness, that is essential

to one's freedom to his whole self is a group.

Seemingly unique to the Counseling-Learning Model

is t hat, in this process, the counseling skills are not

simpl employed by the teacher in relationship to the stu-

dent. But the opposite is also true whereby the student em-

ploys these same skills in relationship to the teacher. It

appears that once the skills of counseling-therapy are ade-

quately 1 earned and exercised in the Counseling-Learning

process a community learning experience takes place. In a

profound en gagent where both the teacher and student are

It
 36

mutually validated by one another as having a true sense of

worth, self-invested learning seems to come forth.

The Counseling-Learning Model involves the student

as the center of learning. His commitment to the process is
the manner by which he becomes self-invested in, or inter-

nalizes, what he learns.

 CHAPTER III

METHODS AND PROCEDURES

In this chapter, we will discuss the selection of

subjects for this study, and the procedures used in secur-

ing and judging the data at the two Counseling-Learning

Institutes where the Counseling-Learning Model was employed.

1. Selection of the population - The participants

in both institutes numbered approximately seventy-five and

came from a wide geographical distribution in the United

States and Canada. They represented primarily a distribu-

tion in the helping professions, such as, education, coun-

seling, hospital personnel, social work, and chaplaincies.

The participants varied from seventeen to sixty years in

age. Approximately two or three teenagers were numbered

among the participants in each institute. Random samplings

consisting of persons representing the helping professions

were taken from the entire population attending the insti-

tutes. The participants were divided into groups of four

by simply numbering themselves from one to eighteen (the

total number of the groups of four). Three groups were

selected at random from the total number of groups of each

institute. Any of the other groups of four had as much

chance of being selected for the study as the three groups

designated. All of the participants in the random samplings

37
1.4
 38

were over twenty-one years of age.

2. Securing of the data - The samplings in Appendi-

ces A and B were tape-recorded in the small groups of four.

During the Institute held at Sinsinawa, Wisconsin, the sam-

plings were taken at three different intervals throughout

the Institute in an effort to demonstrate movement from

particularization to symbolization to self-investment, or

internalization over the five days.

The first sampling was done on Monday, the second

on Wednesday, and the third on Friday. At the Toronto In-

stitute the samplings were made on Monday and Friday only.

Each member of the sampled groups was given five minutes in

which to react to the teacher presentation previously given

to the entire large group. The other three members of the

group, while not necessarily professional counselors, were

asked to act as counselors as the client explored his af-

fective and cognitive reaction to the presentation in a

whole-person communication. A staff member, trained in the

skills of counseling, assisted in the small groups to help

the other three participants in the skills of listening and

understanding.

According to our hypothesis the learners would be

expected to move from particularization to symbolization to

self-investment (or internalization) as a result of the

understanding of the counselors in the small groups. The

graphs and rating charts in the next chapter will indicate

to what extent this movement took place.

 39

3. Panel of Judges - Four judges were used to rate

the small-group samplings, (Appendix A and B). All four

judges were trained in counseling. One held a Ph.D. in
counseling, one was a Ph.D. candidate in counseling, and

the other two held a Master's Degree in the counseling field.

The judges were mailed the small-group samplings,

(Appendix C contains a sample sheet of the statements

judged) and were requested to indicate what each statement

measured as to particularization, symbolizr_tion, and self-

investment (or internalization) by encircling numbers one

through five, number five indicating the highest number on

the scale. They were also instructed that each statement in
the samplings may have elements of all three, or one, two or

no measurement, and were requested to encircle the number

which they felt best indicated the degree to which each

statement contained the element of particularization, sym-

bolization, or self-investment. These terms were explained

to them as in Chapter I under the Definition of Terms.

Summary

In this chapter we discussed the selection of the

population, the securing of the data, and the panel of

judges employed to rate the small-group samplings.

Three groups consisting of four persons were se-

lected out of approximately seventy-five participants of

each Institute held at Sinsinawa, Wisconsin, and Toronto,

Canada. The samplings were tape-recorded and then trans-

 40

cribed for the four judges to rate movement from particular-

ization to symbolization to self-investment, or internaliza-

tion on a scale from one to five over the five days of the

Institutes.

The four judges were trained in counseling. One

held a Ph.D. in counseling, one was a Ph.D. candidate in

counseling, and the other two held a Master's Degree in

the field of counseling.
 CHAPTER IV

TREATMENT AND FINDINGS OF DATA

Sinsinawa Institute

Chart (1) shows the scores of three sample groups

in a five day Institute where the Counseling-Learning Model

was employed. The samplings were ta.:en on Monday, Wednes-

day, and Friday of that week.

The scores were arvimed at by using a five-point

rating scale in which five was high and one was low. Four

judges were involved in the scoring. Each judge was asked

to rate each of the first five Client statements on the

basis of particularization, symbolization, and self-invest-

ment (internalization). The scores of the four judges for

each statement were then added to arrive at a combined

score. For example, if Judge #1 gave a score of 16 for the

five Client statements for particularization on Monday;

Judge #2 gave a score of 22; Judge #3, a score of 11; and

Judge #4, a score of 16; then these numbers would add up to

65, representing the combined score for particularization,

(e.g., Table 2, Cl. 4, Monday).

In comparing the total scores as shown on the three

Tables, one notices an overall decrease in particulariza-

tion from Monday to Friday, while there is an increase in

symbolization and self-investment, or internalization.

4,.)41
 42

This would be the hoped for result of the learning relation-

ship: that as the learner, through having been understood in

his world of particulars, is then freed to move toward a

broader symbolization, and finally to an investment in what

he has learned.

If one looks at the individual Client scores from

Monday to Friday, the movement from a decrease in particular-

ization to an increase in symbolization and self-investment

does not always hold constant. For example, in Table 2,

Client #4, while there is a decrease in particularization

from Monday to Friday, there is no increase in self-invest-

ment and, in fact, on Wednesday there is a slight decrease.

While the movement for some Clients is rather dramatic, for

others it is less so.

Toronto Institute

Chart (2) (Toronto Institute) was constructed in the

same manner as Chart (1) (Sinsinawa Institute) except that

for this Group, the samplings were taken twice (Monday and

Friday) during the five-day Institute, instead of three

times. A similar movement, i.e., from a decrease in par-

ticularization to an increase in symbolization and self-

investment, is evident, although not so striking, as in the

Sinsinawa Group. This less dramatic movement may be ac-

counted for by the fact that during the Toronto Institute

there were fewer Staff people available to assist as facili-

tators in the small group interaction.

 43

Purpose of Graphing

Graphs 1, 2 and 3 correspond to Chart 1 and graphs

4, 5 and 6 correspond to Chart 2. In constructing the

graphs, the scores (Chart 1 and 2) given by the four judges

to the first five client statements were divided by four

(the number of judges); this dividend was then further di-

vided by five (corresponding to the five-point rating

scale). The result was then plotted on the graph. The pur-

pose in using the Graphs, in addition to the Charts, was to

provide an additional way of viewing the movement of the

groups from particularization to symbolization to self-

investment. Consequently, the Graphs show the same results

as the Charts, but for purposes of comparison and contrast

among the groups, offer a different manner of seeing the

group movement.

For a correlation of the scores of the four judges

who rated the samplings, see Appendix (D).

5t)
 44

SINEINAWA INSTITUTE

Chart 1 P=Particularization
S=Symbolization
Table 1 IN=Self-Investment
(Internalization)

Monday Wednesday Friday

P S IN P S IN P S IN

Cl. #1 50 38 18 Cl. #1 1 75 64 47 ! Cl. #1 35 59 60

. .#
Cl. #2 70 41 21 Cl. #2 50 67 64 Cl. #2 26 87 81

Cl. #3 78 38 13 Cl. #3 46 52 35 Cl. #3 33 60 42

r

Cl. #4 49 36 23 Cl. #4 49 51 46 Cl. #4 26 59 52

Total 247 153 75 Total ,220 234,192 Total 120 265 235

Table 2

Monday Wednesday Friday

P S IN P S IN P s IN

Cl. #1 100 24 10 Cl. #1 53 52: 31 Cl. #1 21 63 40

Cl. #2 34 55 24 Cl. #2 28 64 30 Cl. #2 39 69 35

Cl. #3 82 39 16 Cl. #3 32 72 28 Cl. #3 21 55 25

Cl. #4 65 43 21 Cl. #4 22 60 20 C1. #4 28 47 21

Total 281,161 71 Total 135 248 109 Total 108 234 121

Table 3

Monday Wednesday Friday

P S IN P S IN P S IN
.

Cl. #1 36 48 20 Cl. #1 50 52 37 Cl. #1 39 68 50

Cl. #2 28 44 10 Cl. #2 29 77 16 Cl. #2 40 58 48

.

Cl. #3 30 42 18 Cl. #3 31 57 34 Cl. #3 33 84 50

Cl. #4 36 59 25 Cl. #4 22 67 33 Cl. #4 25 69 38

Total
,- 130 193 73 Total 132.253 120 Total 137 279 185
I

r
 45

TORONTO INSTITUTE

Chart 2 P=Particularization
S=Symbolization
Table 1 IN=Self-Investment
(Internalization)

Monday Friday

P S IN P S IN

Cl. #1 41 30 7 Cl. #1 72 44 26

Cl. #2 73 23 12 Cl. #2 56 32 20

Cl. #3 49 19 15 Cl. #3 38 47 20

Cl. #4 59 47 17 Cl. /4 34 50 24

Total 222 119 51 Total 200 173 90

Table 2

Monday Friday

P S IN P S IN

Cl. #1 48 29 9 Cl. #1 35 67 27
4

Cl. #2 43 57 24 Cl. #2 23 67 27

Cl. #3 59 43 26 Cl. #3 21 81 31

Cl. #4 53 46 8 Cl. #4 46 51 22
4,

Total 203 175 67 Total 125 268 100

Table 3

Monday Friday

P S IN P S IN

Cl. #1 30 55 11 Cl. #1 41 63 40

Cl. #2 44 54 20 Cl. #2 24 66 36

Cl. #3 52 38 8 Cl. #3 38 79 45

Cl. #4 34 30 9 Cl. #4 44 38 29

Total 160 177 48 Total 147 246 150

5-2-
 Graph #1

r Particularization SI NSINAWA INSTITUTE

S Symbolization
I Self-Investment (Intornalization) Group ao 1
s

P SIN P SIN P SIN P SIN P SIN P SIN P SIN P SIN P SIN P SIN P S IN P SIN P SIN P SIN P SIN
MON. WED. FRI. MON. WED. FRI. MON. WED. FRI. MON WED. FRI. MON. WED. FRI.
Client 4 1 Client *2 Client st- 3 Client, 44 TOtal Group

5.3
 Graph #2
P Particularisation
S . Symbolisation SINSINAWA INSTITUTE
I Self-Inveament (Internalisation)

S
Group 02

P SIN P SIN PS IN P SIN PSIN P IN P SIN P S iN P S I N P SIN P SIN P SIN P SIN P SIN PSIN
Client AN- 1 Client it 1 Client $ 3 Client it + Total Group
 Graph #3
P Particularization
S
I
Symbolization SINSINAWA INSTITUTE
Seli-Inveatment (Internalisation)
Group 3

P 5 IN P SIN P SIN P SIN P SIN P SIN P S IN P 5 IN P 5 IN P S IN P S IN P S IN

Client it 1 Client it 2 Client st 3 Otal Group

SS
 Graph #4

P im Particularization TORONTO INSTITUTE

S = Symbolization Group #1.
I Self-Investment (Internalization)

14
0
-000

g v
r_

0
0
ofe
p.-

-./
1. P
0
0°. . Gay
4 -a,
0
e -A
P Ppy
r4
ow

,
r
0
. .
go
/od g 0 4.,
...,,,,
0-
...,, 4 .04 LOAM .04 .4 P144 A .4 AA .4 .4.#1 141...."
S IN P S IN P S IN P S IN P S IN P S IN P S I N P S I N P S IN P S IN

Monday Friday Monday Friday Monday Friday Monday Friday Monday Friday

Client #1 Client 42 Client #3 Client #4 Total Group

S6'
 Graph #5

P = Particularization TORONTO INSTITUTE

S = Symbolization Group 12
I = Self-Investment (Internalization)

P S IN P S IN P S IN P S IN P S IN P S IN P S IN r S IN P S IN P S IN
Monday Friday Monday Friday Monday Friday Monday Friday Oonday Friday
Client 11 Client 12 Client 13 Client 14 Total Group
 Graph #6

P Particularization TORONTO INSTITUTE

S = Symbolization Group 03
I = Self-Investment (Internalization)

P S IN P S IN P S IN P S IN P S IN P S IN P S IN P SIN P SIN P S IN

Monday Friday Monday Friday Monday Friday Monday Friday Monday Friday

Client #1 Client 12 Client 13 Client 14 Total Group

 52

Summary

In this chapter there was an explanation of how the

charts and the graphs were constructed and why graphs were

used as well as charts in showing movement from particular-

ization to symbolization to self-investment, or internaliza-

tion. The correlation of the scores of the four judges were

also referred to in Appendix (D).

The Charts and Graphs demonstrate a high level of

particularization and a low level of self-investment, or in-

ternalization in the initial sampling to less particulari-

zation and more self-investment, or internalization, in the

final sampling. This is particularly true of the Sinsinawa

Institute. The Toronto Institute samplings also demon-

strate movement but not as sharply.

 CHAPTER V

SUMMALY AND CONCLUSIONS

Summary

This study was conducted to determine what effect

the Counseling-Learning Model established by C.A. Curran has

on adult learning.

Educators and psychologists are aware that adults

are not as open to learning as children. They also agree

that a non-threatening psychological climate or atmosphere

is necessary for optimal learning to take place on the part

of adults. This study seems to indicate that the Counseling-

Learning Model enables adult learners to feel less resistant

and better able to internalize knowledge through interaction

with a skilled understander or "cognizing" person.

In the hypothesis it was stated that as a result of

the germination process in the small group sessions of the

Counseling-Learning Model movement from closure (particu-

larization) to openness (symbolization) and finally intern-

alization of learning is facilitated. It is clearly indi-

cated on the Charts and Graphs that in the initial small

group sessions there was a high level of particularization.

In accordance with our hypothesis, movement is shown from

an initial high degree of particularization and a low level

of self-investment (internalization) on Monday to less par-
 54

ticularization and higher self-investment on Friday. This

is especially true of the Sinsinawa Institute. The same

pattern also holds true for the Toronto Institute although

not quite as strlkingly. This movement is facilitated

through the understanding responses of the counselors in

the small groups.

In the small groups it was seen how the client

learners were allowed to express themselves either cogni-

tively or affectively (usually more centrally affectively

in the beginning, as the study indicates) and as a result

of being accepted and understood, were gradually freed from

their threat either of new knowledge in the learning exper-

ience itself or the person of the teacher-knower, or their

own small group.

It appears that the core difficulty in the adult's

internalization of learning involves the same psychological

subtlety that has been noted in the therapeutic process of

counseling. Once the client-learner in the small group was

able to express his feelings (particularization) around the

presentation and was adequately accepted and understood

(symbolized) by the counselors he gained greater recognition

of the nature of his feelings around the issues presented.

Consequently, he was better able to move toward a conscious

choice, or self-investment, of them.

Growth toward a community learning situation in the

small groups was also demonstrated. Instead of questioning,

doubting, and negation, there was warm acceptance and con-

61
 55

validation, which left the learner free from threat or anx-

iety in relationship to the counselors. As a result, the

client-learner was encouraged in his struggle to unfold his

unique understanding of the cognitive presentation of the

teacher-knower.

Conclusions

1. The Counseling-Learning Model seems to produce

an effective psychological climate or atmosphere for adults

to learn.

2. The study shows that at the end of the five day

Institutes the participants are less resistant and more open

to learning because of greater self-investment (internali-

zation).

3. The study would indicate that adults are better

able to internalize meanings and thus acquire values

through the skills of listening and understanding.

Implications for Education

Adult education is of main concern to educators to-

day. The reasons for this have been discussed in Chapter I

under Significance of the Study A key issue in adult

learning seems to be how one adult can teach another with

the least resistance to learning. In the Review of the

Literature, Chapter IV, it was pointed out that very little

is known about the learning processes of adults. There

seems to be a lot of gaps in knowledge about teaching adults

62
or helping them learn. The literature also indicates that

while the issue of resistance to learning is as old as edu-

cation itself, the attempts to deal with it have not been

very fruitful. In fact the psychology of learning seems to

have accomplished little in the field of learning theory.

The Counseling-Learning Model researched by Charles

A. Curran could provide us with some ye-wale insights into

the subtleties of adult learning. It seems to provide the

climate to deal directly with conflict adults have in learn-

ing in the form of hostility, anger, and anxiety. Since

this kind of resistance to adult learning has been somewhat

overlooked in present educational methods, the Counseling-

Learning Model might help considerably in this area.

As stated in the Introduction (Chapter I) the

Counseling-Learning Model was drawn from preliminary re-

search in foreign languages. The research seemed to indi-

cate that learning takes place in a five stage process. It

was further stated that significant of the Five Stages of

learning is the interrelationship between the teacher-knower

and student-learner in a counseling dynamic that is creative

both for the teacher and the learners. Essential to adult

learning is the critical transition that must take place

between the knower and learner in Stage IV. What appears

to be unique in the Counseling-Learning Model is that in

this learning process the counseling skills are not only em-

ployed by the teacher-knower but by the student-learner as

well. Therefore, there is set up a relationship where there

(30
 57

is no superior or inferior and both are mutually convali-

dated by one another.

If educators can become familiar with the proposed

Five Stages of learning, with particular focus on the cru-

cial transition between Stages III and IV, then interchange-

ably make use of the counseling skills by teacher and stu-

dent, perhaps many of the factors which seem to inhibit

adults from learning could be eliminated.

Implications for Research

1. Follow-up to determine permanency of values

arrived at in the five day Institute.

2. Can the same movement from particularization to

symbolization to internalization of knowledge (value choice)

be achieved over a longer period of time, say a normal

school semester, or is a five-day, capsulized situation re-

quisite to achieve this.

3. Further study on the presence of a trained

counselor in the small groups. Could the same results be

achieved without such a facilitator.

Summary

A summary was made of what effect the Counseling-

Learning Model established by C.A. Curran has on adult

learning.

It was stated in the hypotheses that as a result of

the germination process in the small groups of the Counsel-

 58

ing-Learning Model, movement from closure to openness and

finally internalization of learning is facilitated. The

Charts and Graphs have clearly indicated this movement.

It was concluded that the Counseling-Learning Model

creates a psychological climate for the adult to learn, and

that there appears to be less resistance and more openness

to learn after the five day Institute. Also, the counseling

skills help to internalize meanings and thus acquire values.

The employment of the Counseling-Learning Model

could have sigC.ficant implications for education in break-

ing down adult resistance to learning. It seems to deal

directly with the many subtleties of adult learning.

If educators could acquaint themselves with the

Five Stages of learning, with special focus on the crucial

transition from Stage III to Stage IV and interchangeably

make use of counseling skills by the teacher and student,

perhaps many factors which prohibit adult learning could be

overcome.

Further research is needed to determine the perm-

anency of values arrived at in five days. There is also a

question whether the same movement from particularization

to symbolization to self-investment, or internalization,

can be achieved over a longer period. A further question

as to the value of the facilitator in the small groups could

be researched.

65
 Appendix A

SINSINAWA INSTITUTE

Contained in this appendix are samplings from small

groups from the Counseling-Learning Institute conducted at

Sinsinawa, Wisconsin. The samplings demonstrate how the

learner, in the counseling-learning relationship, moves from

particularization, to symbolization, to self-investment, or

the internalization of learning.

Group #1

Sampling 1 - Monday

In the following samplings, Cl. stands for client and

Co. for counselor. It is not regarded as necessary to dis-

tinguish which of the three cognitive counselors in the group

actually gave the responses, since all were more or less

equally adept as counselors.

Client #1

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): Perhaps my reaction was that

I was very much keyed up to findout what was the dis-
turbance or what was the information that caused the
trouble. I kept waiting for that to unfold, and it
seemed like the whole counseling session was on the pro-
cess which is really threatening to all the people.

The client is referring to a previous lecture given

by the teacher. His statement, "I kept waiting for that to

unfold", typifies a high degree of nob-involvement. He

appears to himself as an outsider looking on.

66
59
 60

(Co.): So, then, throughout the whole thing you were

disturbed that the problem was never really mentioned.

Statement 2. (Cl. 1): Well, I wouldn't necessarily

say I was intrigued by the whole thing. I probably
would empathize a little more with it if I felt, yes, we
will get this answer. Being an average American, and I
consider myself such, I like happy endings to programs.
We had a happy ending on the counseling, but we didn't
have a happy ending on what was the problem.

(Co.): You wanted to have the problem identified and

then solved, or something like that.

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): Well, if not solved, at least

to say this is what brought this whole thing about.
What was the unknown that brought the session about? I
did think we would get a hint of what the unknown was.

In the preceding two client statements, we see him

seeking closure. This would be a fairly typical adult reac-

tion to the discomfort of learning.

(Co.): It was a disappointment, then, wasn't it?

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): In a way it was a disappoint-

ment, although, I am suspecting that we will get another
display somewhere along that line in the next couple of
days.

(Co.): It's not that you are never going to find

out; your expectations and your intrigue was that you
expected a problem and a solution. You were left up in
the air.

Statement 5. (Cl. 1): I inherited this because of

my dad. He used to say about movies that thc.: some-
times don't finish, they just end and you don't know
what the story is at the end of the movie.

(Co.): You felt that it was interesting enough.

Statement 6. (Cl. 1): Oh, yes.

(Co.): You wanted a deeper kind of thing to per-

ceive, or to give you a clue as to what was going on.

Statement 7. (Cl. 1): I would have liked something

on the problems and maybe that's typical of our view -'

P) f
 61

points. You like to get to the problem of task

oriented people.

(Co.): I think we should say it's something that

you are becoming aware of. There was something being
said about our own task oriented mess. That we tend to
get caught up in the task of problems, and miss people.
You are wondering now if that might now have been the
issue.

Statement 8. (Cl. 1): That's possible what was in

the back of my head at all times. We were learning a
little more than I was thinking at the given moment.

The final client statements show some indication of

openness. He seems to be arriving at an awareness that per-

haps there was some blocking in himself.

Client #2

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): When I think I have done a

bang-up job of teaching and someone comes along and
throws a question at me that I thought I had made so
clear, I may become defensive rather than trying to
understand. I think he (the teacher) was terrific the
way he was taking what they were saying and say, "this
is what you are saying".

(Co.): You were able to empathize with him (the

teacher) because you were looking at your own situation
and you were perhaps misunderstood by a pupil and yet
there were no defenses.

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): Because I find a terrific

struggle not to give extra homework or say you will get
a test because of something. I think you picked it up
very well in the empathy, I can really feel what he was
going through. I was trying to listen rather than try-
ing to put on and say, "He should say" - predetermine a
response. It was like wow, I've got a long way to go.

(Co.): To you, he did a fantastic job.

Statement 3. (Cl. 2): Yes. For me, it's a struggle

and to see it done, in a sense, it's kind of a hopeful
thing. He is the expert. I think it can be accomplish-
ed by many of us.
 62

(Co.): Even though, when you said at the start,

"I'm going to be a counselor, I'm going to be inside
these people", he still showed us a way to apply it in
such a way that we could relate to. He accomplished
what he set out to do. He understood his people. He
brought them into his world.

Even in the first session, we note a greater open-

ness in Cl. 2 than in Cl. 1. Cl. 2, while less resistant,

still shows a high degree of particularization in his reac-

tion to the knower's presentation. Also, while he expresses

hope, he is also somewhat threatened at the prospect of in-

ternalizing and making operational what he had heard. We

see this in his second statement.

Client #3

Statement 1. (Cl. 3): I was especially critical in

my own mind as I watched that. I was especially criti-
cal of the sister in the habit. She came forth just on
thought. This was the way she was reacting to the pro-
gram. I came in here and when you (referring to another
Cl.) gave your reaction, I was reacting to you but in a
non-verbal way. I have a great deal of difficulty when
someone is saying something to restate It. I think I
get what they are saying, but I have a great deal of
difficulty putting what I understand into words. If I
would understand what you are saying and come back with
it, I put a twist on it so that it wouldn't be yours,
it would be mine.

(Co.): In looking at the T" program and seeing that

sister in habit, she responded in a non-verbal manner
and she seemed to be in empathy with the whole thing and
understand it.

Statement 2. (Cl. 3): No, not especially. She

didn't understand very much. She betrayed what she was
when she was making her response and her contribution to
the group in the TV program. I have done the same thing
in this little group in my reaction to you. The first
time I reacted to him by keeping still. I was following
what he said. I didn't respond.
 63

(Co.): You felt tuned in to him.

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): Yes, I did understand him.

When you (referring to Cl. 2) gave yours and I responded
to you, I tried to respond verbally and I threw the
whole thing into a tizzy of some kin,' here. So, I am
saying that "we are what we are" and, if we can, pull
ourselves back, as Father said before. When we are act-
ing as the counselor, we saw these different means of
giving empathy and responding and so on, but we must be
very careful and if we have any limitations, as I know I
have, and recognize them, then for goodness sake, live
with them, keep still. In my case, I could have let you
know that I understood your enjoyment of the program, or
your understanding of the program, and so on, and go on
without trying to put it into words. Because when I put
it into words, I spoil it and I didn't add anything to
it. Do you follow me?

(Co.): You're saying, then, after the TV program and

what's happened here so far in the group, you feel you
can kind of identify with that sister.

Statement 4. (Cl. 3): Yes, I feel that I can identi-

fy with her.

(Co.): You see your problem.

Statement 5. (Cl. 3): Yes, and it doesn't make me

feel too successful.

(Co.): I think you stated it's the rephrasing the

words. I also have something on my mind, too. The
techniques that they seem to use consistently is to re-
state in different words the idea you are expressing and
it's hard for some people to do that.

Statement 6. (Cl. 3): That's right.

(Co.): You can tune-in in a non-verbal manner by

just looking, or something, better than you can state it
or restate it.

Statement 7. (Cl. 3): That's the way it.seems to

work out for me. But I'm not saying these other tech-
niques aren't terribly important, but, for me, I haven't
learned the other yet. I get myself into it too much
when I try it and I spoil it for somebody else. I can
often draw them out. The very fact that they are able
to put it out helps them and that's the important thing.

(Co.): So, you find yourself sometimes very suc-

cessful and, other times, you're making a mess out of

!0
 64

the whole deal.

Statement 8. (Cl. 3): Yes, I know that some tech-

niques work better with me. I am paying attention to
the techniques of counseling and I have had some train-
ing with it. I recognize the fact that some techniques
I am easy with or able to use effectively, a few others,
I haven't mastered yet.

(Co.): You say that, right now, the technique that

you are having a lot of difficulty with is repeating,
rephrasing, restructuring.

Statement 9. (Cl. 3): That's right. Because I come

forth too strong. Actually, he (the teacher) used that
when he was in here, when I said, "how are we coming
with our time?" He had taken over our time and he was
using too much of our time. I'm not saying that criti-
cally, but I recognize it because it's the sort of thing
that I do.

Client 3 shows some insight into his own resistances.

He shows some resistance and defensiveness, however, in his

comments about technique.

Client #4

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): I didn't force myself to look

for something different or something over and above.

(Co.): You felt that his technique was so good and

there was an idea to be working toward, but, at the
same time, you felt "I have learned the technique and
I'm too tired to concentrate any further right now on
this. At least I know what I am supposed to be doing".
I understand that you were not only impressed with his
technique but his ability to turn on and turn off in a
situation.

Statement 2. (Cl. 4): Now that I look back on it,

it's almost like I would compare it to a person working
on an object like a chair or something where there's no
real emotion involved, or where we can't see it anyway.
He just had to do it and get the job done, that was it.
Like doing some normal everyday task, maybe more like
doing the dishes. He wasn't involved in it in any way.
Outside of that, I didn't really key in on him. I
wasn't paying too much attention.
 65

(Co): It centered then on him and his techniques,

his style, his understanding.

Statement 3. (Cl. 4): Yes, that's maybe the kind

of reason I started to feel so drowsy. There was nothing
else to look for. I couldn't find anything else.

Client 4's statement that "there was nothing else to

look for" typifies what is often true of the Stage III

learner, namely, that he already knows what is being taught.

As we indicated in an earlier chapter, this attitude can

prevent further learning.

Sampling 2 - Wednesday

Client #1

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): I felt very comfortable last

night with the presentation. I think I could empathize
with almost everything that he (the teacher) said. I
enjoyed the various examples. It really gave me some
new insights.

(Co.): You felt tuned in and comfortable with

what he was saying and you feel an empathy with almost
everything he said and got some new insights besides.

Statement 2. (Cl. 1): He was giving some answers

to our person to person relationship and he brought out
suggestions to us. He was doing it in a completely new
fashion, and I thought it was very, very helpful. I,
unfortunately, am the type of person who immediately
then says, "could you do that with something else?"

In his statements, Client 1 expresses some movement

toward symbolization. However, he vacillates between his

own anxiety in internalization and the comfort state of the

"observer".

(Co.): You immediately turned it around to see if

 66

you could do the things that he was doing up there.

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): Right.

(Co.): You could incorporate this into your own

feelings.

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): I suspect that I shouldn't do

that, but it's a way of life that I have always had.
I find that something sounds interesting and good. I
think it works and I am very anxious then to see "could
I do this in relationship to other people, would it be
helpful to them". Could this be your ability? Could
you use this?
You see something that you think is very
(Co.):
credible out there that you like. You immediately want
to try to put this into your own being and make it a
part of yourself.

Statement 5. (Cl. 1): Right, make it a part of my

ability in dealing with other people in helpful rela-
tionships. I found this, of course, all through my
life. I don't apply it to myself quickly enough before
I want to apply it to something else.

(Co.): It's not fast enough.

Statement 6. (Cl. 1): I attempt to go too quickly

on the whole thing as far as I'm concerned. I try to
put it into action myself and maybe before I absorb it
quickly enough myself. I found this in other aspects,
too, other learning processes I've gone through.
Before you really have the thing as part of
(Co.):
you, you want to put it into practice.

Statement 7. (Cl. 1): Right. Perhaps before it

has helped me enough, I want to see if it can help
someone else. This stems back to many retreats we have
had over the years in which you hear something which
sounds good and think, "Gee, that's a great thought.
I'm going to use that sometime". Rather than think
that great thought should help change your life and
make you a better person, I'm thinking it could help
make someone else a better person if I use it correctly.

(Co.): You externalize it before you internalize

it.

Statement 8. (Cl. 1): Yes, that's a good expres-

sion. I think that's maybe what it comes down to. I
 67

want to be pragmatic and use it. One thing I didn't

understand too well last night was the explanation of
the death wish. I think perhaps why I didn't get it so
quickly last night was the fact that I was trying to
hurry through that idea at the end of the lecture. I
didn't quite grasp that.

The counselor's statement helped the client to clar-

ify his own difficulty more sharply. This is an excellent

example of how, in a counseling-learning relationship, as in

psychological counseling, the learner can be helped to sym-

bolize himself through the responses of the counselor.

Client #2

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): I guess on of the parts that

I tuned into most was the thing about the creative suf-
ferer, in the sense of Van Gogh, and I felt like I under-
stood that very much. Then he referred to it in the
sense of Christ; the struggle, the tremendous pain of
being misunderstood.

(Co.): You are saying that you suffer in your art

similar to Van Gogh's type of suffering.

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): No, not so much my art. I

feel more as a teacher than an artist. Because I don't
feel that creating or painting a picture, but the crea-
tive person. Maybe it's not just that either but maybe
it's the acceptance of a person like Van Gogh and who he
was and what he said as a person and what he said visu-
ally. Some people say it in poetry and other things,
but he said it visually and it wasn't accepted. Like
what Christ said and what he did as a person was not ac-
cepted. Maybe I'm in between some place. Me as a per-
son, the acceptance of me as who I am as "me", rather
than having to live up to certain norms or still in a
slot. If I don't fulfill somebody's slot, maybe I'm
still in an adolescent thing. I want to be accepted
as who I am and what I have to offer, rather than some
sort of a slot thing.

(Co.): You are who you are. You understand the il-
lustrations that were given.

Statement 3. (Cl. 2): Yes. Because I want to be

 68

loved for me and what I am trying to do as a person. I

guess I feel a very strong need to be accepted and loved
for my own person. Believed in, in a sense. Like Christ
wanted to be believed. Maybe mine is more selfish. His
(Christ) was more universal. He was here to save all
people.

(Co.): You were exploring the connection.

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): Yes, right. That's a good

thing. I am not as heroic as Christ. I am not out to
save anyone. And yet, maybe in a sense, I am out to
save someone besides myself. But I guess, however, I'm
not sure, there are a lot of good things about me. But
I need something special. I need to be loved by some-
one special. Like, I loved someone very, very deeply
in the last couple of years. I thought there was the
same response there but I was rejected. I guess I'm
still struggling with that. It's still a very painful
thing. This person that I really loved so much re-
jected me as a person, this person who seemed to have
accepted me most as a person.

Client 2 achieved a high degree of internalization

and identity with the content of the knower's presentation.

We saw something of this in Client 2 in the first sampling.

We see it here more sharply. The knower's presentation

evoked something quite personal in him. Because it was per-

sonal, the learner (Cl. 2), could relate to it, even though

it was somewhat painful.

Client #3

Statement 1. (Cl. 3): (Sigh). I think I'm suffer-

ing to be understood. I enjoyed the presentation last
night and I enjoyed the reactions to it. I thought I
was seeing it in terms of a technique since I am a
trained math teacher and spent my life teaching third
and fourth year math. I appreciate all those illustra-
tions, as you could the art.

(Co.): You're saying you really enjoyed it and it

was a good evening for you.
Statement 2. (Cl. 3): Yes, that's right, in all

7.)
 69

these different ways. It seemed to me that there are

two things going on. The learning of the techniques
or the experiences of reacting or just being a part of
this whole experience is one thing and a good thing.
The other is maybe on the cognitive level and the need
for time and analysis individually, putting it into
ourselves, making the connections.

(Co.): So then, there are two things involved.

One, the learning of what we are supposed to be doing,
but then taking the time out to internalize and make it
a part of oneself.

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): Yes, that's right. I think

the second is, and this may be my prejudice, you see,
that it is extremely important because I don't think we
can give it to others until we have it ourselves.

(Co.): You feel pressured, somewhat, almost where

you don't have time to do it. In some way, you want to
get what it is you want to get so hat you can help
others with it.

Statement 4. (Cl. 3): No. 1 -1 .!,. that this ex-

perience is good and moving along. I think that just
the right touch on the right combination of experiences
and thinking is good, and for getting it organized and
concentrated into a week and so on. I would hope that
it would lead to a time when we could go back with a
few notes, or no notes, and think or pray over it our-
selves and then go on into it in our own way and use it
in experiences with others.

(Co.): So you are saying this is an important week.

but you feel like that there isn't enough time to absorb
the whole process and everything that's happening to us.
You feel kind of upset or saddened by the whole thing.

Statement 5. (Cl. 3): No. It isn't enough time...

(the five minute limit was up at this point).

Client 3 exhibits some discomfort in his statements.

The discomfort centers around his knowing what he should do

and whether he can do it. If he an internalize what he in-

tellectualized, he will be able to handle his discomfort

constructively.

PM
:0
 70

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): I, myself, have often found

that in a classroom situation, even today, after being
through twenty years of education, I still feel really
threatened by the teacher. But it seems that, after
listening to the lecture last night, there's almost no
reason why a student should be threatened because the
teacher really is in need of the student; that really
came through .to me, where the student is.

(Co.): You enjoyed his concept here, that the

teacher is more vulnerable than, in a way, the pupil is,
and after all these years, perhaps you feel now, that as
a student, you are in a better position than you ever
realized you were before.

Statement 2. (Cl. 4): I agree. I'm able to say to

a teacher, (I feel that I can say it now), "Damn it,
you really need me too". That's kind of a good feeling
to have.

(Co.): This whole new concept has taken a pretty

good root in you, the teacher is going to help you in
your teacher-pupil relationships.

Statement 3. (Cl. 4): Yes, and myself as a pupil

more so. I guess I was also lost in what was said
about the death wish because it was so late. It was all
so confusing to me.

We see in Client 4's statements a strong identity

with the lecturer. This seems to illustrate our notion that

internalized knowledge is more than intellectualization, but

a kind of "know - feel ".'

(Co.): You would like a further explanation of this

whole concept, perhaps when he has more time and could
explain it a little more.

Statement 4. (Cl. 4): So -.then too - the story of

Van Gogh; I just knew of Van Gogh, I really didn't know
about his suicide. I guess it kind of expresses, to me,
the need that people have. I mean when he was talking

'Curran, C.A., Counseling-Learning A Whole Person

Model for Education, Grune and Stratton: New York and Lon -
on, 19T2. p. 89.
 71

about Van Gogh, the thought occurred to me about the

need that thousands of people like him must have to have
people to listen and understand.

(Co.): The example of Van Gogh brought to your at-

tention, then, the great need of so many people that you
never thought of have for understanding and help, even
as Van Gogh needed help.

Statement 5. (Cl. 4): It's kind of frightening, too,

because there is so much that needs to be done and I
don't feel that I'm able to accomplish all of it.

Sampling 3 - Friday

Client #1

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): My reaction, probably as I

stated even this morning, was immediately trying to find
out how I could use some of these very fine ideas and
expressions that he (the teacher) gave us. I was think-
ing that I could use some of this material in a homily
next Sunday. Could I use it, for example, in a parent-
child-guidance type of an approach, to get the parents
to be more considerate of what this new educational pro-
cess is? Could I explain to them why their children are
reacting to the old way of teaching and how in this pro-
cess they have more of a feeling with the teacher and
each other?

In the preceding statement of Client 1, one can

sense a relaxed openness and a high level of insight. There

is no resistance to the knower and no defensiveness. It is

as though he is able to totally enter into the world of the

knower and internalize what the knower is mimetic to.

(Co.): So, then, in the past couple of days you

have really been alert, or you have really been trying
to apply this to a situation that in your work you are
doing with parents.

Statement 2. (Cl. 1): I'm a little bit fearful of

the fact, that once again, as I said this morning, I'm
not applying it enough in my own life, as I think I
 72

should. Before I end up trying to use this, I don't

want to use the words of someone else, or to use this
as a technique with other people. This continues to
bother me because it's been a pattern of the way I op-
erate most of my life. I have always looked on inform-
ation as something that could be used in the work you
are doing with others like in teaching. This is the dif-
ficulty that I have.

Here we have evidence of the client's struggle to

make new knowledge operational.

(Co.): So, you are trying to figure out a way, you

are searching for a way that this can become more a part
of you.

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): That's part of it, yeah. And

I think even a little further than that.

(Co.): You want it to become more a part of you be-

fore you begin to share it with others.

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): I'm not sure if a judgment

has to be made on it, or whether I'm trying to judge my-
self on this a little bit. Maybe I'm not in a position
where I can judge myself. I've always been a practical-
minded person in that way and I continue to use the same
techniques; the same way I've always operated. I'm try-
ing to use now the things Curran has given us and I can
see, too, that the whole approach of education for
adults -- I run a couple of study groups -- and I can
see right now the first talk for this coming fall is
going to be about this whole process we've been going
through; how adults learn. I think it is going to be a
success; people will be willing to listen to it at
least. I just hope I'm not a problem solver, I usually
start out by telling people I'm not that, but uncon-
sciously start to solve them then, for them.

(Co.): So, you really feel kind of excited?

Statement 5. (Cl. 1): Right - terrific - I've come
up with three ideas that I feel are going to be helpful
in whatever work I do. If you come up with even one
out of any workshop you are lucky. We have three ideas
already and we've got some more coming, so I feel
whereas yesterday I didn't feel with what was going on,
right now I'm in a position where I feel the workshop
is a success. As far as I'm concerned, I've come with
some new thinking, which I feel I cen ase.
 73

(Co.): You really feel you have gotten your money's

worth?

Statement 6. (Cl. 1): At this stage, I've bought

the package. To me, that makes me feel rather good
about the whole situation. I can see growth in our
group which is another thing that came out of this dis-
cussion we had with Father Curran. The whole pattern of
the last two days is clearer now. I'm not making judg-
ments...but, I guess as a client, I can make judgments.

(Co.): So the growth in this group also gives you

happiness.

Statement 7. (Cl. 1): Right, small improvements are

great. I'm very pleased with the whole situation now.
I suspect there will be a few dull moments and there
will be times when I'll be unhappy in the next several
days, but we've accomplished a lot of what I came to ac-
complish. Sometimes it is a little closed-mindedness,
to say you've accomplished what you wanted out of it.
But, I don't want to make that as my strong point, either,
because I'd like to be able to see how other people react
to this whole thing.

(Co.): So, I see a kind of overall happiness about

what has happened so far; you still see more good things
coming in.

Statement 8. (Cl. 1): Right, I'm looking forward to

this even with the realization that we could have per-
iods when things don't go well, or where there could be
a breakdown in communications somewhere; but, generally
speaking, we're well on our way.

Client l's statements in this third sampling are in

sharp contrast to his earlier statements in Sampling 1. He

is more relaxed, secure, and ready to make operational the

content of the learning process.

Client #2

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): I can see the MF factor in

relation to my work, not only to my work, but to my be-
ing, but very, very much to my work. I find myself be-
ing threatened by students, or I can take it only so
long, then I have to throw something at them because I
 74

can't take the non-acceptance of what is going on.

They don't seem to be getting the things that I have to
offer as a teacher. It's part of my guts and I can see
the things that I am offering them. I want them to be
receptive to me but then my question to myself, "Am I
receptive to their needs, in a sense, am I receptive as
to why they are not opening up to me?" Maybe I have to
open up to them as an individual first.

(Co.): So, you understand his use of the MF teach-

ing technique...

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): I can see it in a very, very

practical way in my position as a teacher. I am still
caught with the struggle as to when do I open up myself
to them and receive them, and when should they open
themselves to receive my message as a teacher.

(Co.): You are wondering if you will be able to

find the right time to open yourself to these students
to apply this approach?

Staterhent 3. (Cl. 2): Right, this effectiveness,

this almost fairness. I don't want to say 50% you and
50% me. In that part, the anguish that he expressed
that people struggle through in trying to be understood.
The example of Van Gogh and again, the pianist, when he
wrote the music and it was not accepted. It's this
whole thing again, this acceptance of whatever one has
to offer. On the cognitive level of knowledge, that if
they take the information and corporate it, they will be
able to do many more things in the work they are doing.
It's the anxiety in the teacher, I feel, that he was re-
ferring to. The teacher has something to offer and he
doesn't know how good it is until you take my seed and
mull it around in your soil and see if between the two
of us you can come up with something.

(Co.): It seems that you have two things that you

are wondering about. 1. Will I recognize the right
time to apply this to the students? 2. Will I be able
to take it, as it were; can I react to them well and not
be frightened if they don't accept me? Or, will I go
back and be a little more demanding, like, perhaps, I
felt I was not in the past, and they won't accept?

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): Yea, well, my resistance...

like I can only do it for so long...like, ahhhhhh, I
can't take anymore. How are we going to handle it?
(Co.): You are hoping that you won't get into that
old reaction of perhaps being offensive towards the stu-
dent, but you're fearful that after a certain amount of
time that it might get to you and you'll revert to a
 75

previous method of handling the situation.

Statement 5. (Cl. 2): Right, I thin: there is an-

other part to that too, a certain length of time. I
can be open to them for so long, but then my resistance
level is only so high; I can only do it for so long and
then I can't take anymore. I guess that I'm most con-
cerned with how to stretch this because then I have more
of an understanding. What he (the teacher) is saying
makes me understand more the degree of openness I should
have and I want, but damn it, I can only go so far.

Client 2 shows more of a struggle to hold open than

did Client 1. Still he is more able to identify the

struggle now than in his statements of Sampling 1 or 2.

Client #3

Statement 1. (Cl. 3): In thinking over this mater-

ial, the three different figures under which he explained
the techniques and so on, the problem solving, and the
agricultural model, or that whole vocabulary,I enjoyed
it. I agreed with it and I need more time to make all of
it fit into my thinking.

(Co.): You feel kind of an enjoyment because you

could understand, and you feel a need for more time.

Statement 2. (Cl. 3): Yes, not just time as time,

but a growing, or an analysis, or a frame, and...

(Co.): A depth of time rather than the length.

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): Yes. Maybe just one exper-

ience or one insight could be enough to do it but it is
not a complete process yet - for me. I'm still in the
midst of things all the time it seems. You never come
to a good period. My own development or growth or
change, whatever, I'm - the figure that really meant a
great deal to me, and I really got more out of it than
you three did, was the holding of the terror and the
death thing, because it would be easier for me. That
is what I want to do completely, to withdraw, just en-
joying all these nice thoughts.

We see here Client 3 faced with a typical learning

 /6

confrontation. One is reminded of Shakespeare's "If'to do

were as easy as to know were good to do, chapels had been

churches, and poor men's cottages princes' palaces".1

(Co.): You just want to take all these nice

thoughts and enjoy them and not keep pushing.

Statement 4. (Cl. 3): It would be nice just to...

(Co.): To be an observer?

Statement 5. (Cl. 3): Nc, no, not just an observer.

Carry on the process, but in a selfish way, just for my
own enjoyment and if I'm going to stay alive, I have to
share, or, I have to have reaction with others and...

(Co.): You just want to keep it for yourself.

Statement 6. (Cl. 3): Yes, because I think people

that are working as a counselor, I - pecple are making
the effort to experience, share, allow others to...

(Co.): You should seer working, instead of quitting?

Statement 7. (Cl. 3): Yes. (Sigh). Quitting is

not, I mean all of these words are unsatisfactory; they
don't express the living thing that's going on and it
takes effort, it takes a deliberate choice to keep on
trying when you know that you could do the other.

(Co.): It takes so much energy to keep wanting,

trying, and yet, if you would stop, it still wouldn't
be like death or quitting because there is still life
going on, but not in the same way.

Statement 8. (Cl. 3): But you could quit, you could

turn it off. You could be her( in the body and not be
a part of what's going on here. To be a part of what's
going on here, you have to invest yourself in a new way.

(Co.): A new investment began rather than just

being here physically. You've got to push out again.

1Shakespeare, William, Merchant of Venice, I. ii. 1:.

 77

Client #4

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): I guess one of the things I

think of - I'm kind of learning, I'm being exposed to
this method of counseling-leatning but when I go back to
my job as a Director of Religious Education, working
with teachers, mainly adult tea. .ers, also working with
other adults in learning situations, I've been trying to
figure out just how I am going to put this all into prac-
tice. Just how much I am going to make it a part of me --
I need the time -- even if I have the time, I'm kind of
concerned with how no one else will understand this
whole method. For example, if I'm working with a group
of teachers in a teacher-training situation, I can feel
that I am the client, I have something to share, and I
might come out with some statements, or I might say
something. I guess I'm kind of afraid, which often hap-
pens many times, people will consider you're the radical
or they'll say something against you right away. They
won't even listen, or they won't even let it take root,
the seed.

Client 4 here expresses a typical adult threat to

learning and knowing. He would seem to be much more comfort-

able without these new awarenesses.

(Co.): You're saying that you expect to put some

of this into practice and you recognize the risk you're
taking and you'll have to choose...

Statement 2. (Cl. 4): Right. Everytime I meet with

a group of people, I'll have some of this idea in the
back of my mind - of being the sower and I guess I really
question what will happen if the ground, those people, do
not understand that what they're supposed to do i= take
what I have to share; for them to digest it before they
react to me in a violent way. I guess, too, I've also
been trying to find out a way to share this with more
people in the parish in which I work. What I've learned
here is so good.

(Co.): Yes, you want to use it, you want to share

it.

Statement 3. (Cl. 4): But I don't know how. How do

you really begin to pull it off, to expose more people
 78

to the analogy of the Sower and the Seed? I guess, so

far, in the past couple of days, when I think about
what's being done here, the best image that kind of ex-
presses this whole counseling-learning thing for me is,
the image of the Sower and the Seed. I guess that is
why I bring it up so often.

(Co.): That is a very, very fruitful image to use.

Statement 4. (Cl. 4): Very fruitful, but very mean-

ingful to me. I guess it just occurs to me, too, you
don't want to force what you have to share on anyone.
You just have to hope they will understand. Talking
about adults, maybe this is one of the problems - like
with adult education - we can sponsor or we can have
adult classes and, out of 4000 in the parish, you get
twenty or thirty people to show up. How do you reach
the rest? It seems like in some way they could under-
stand, somehow, what we're experiencing, what I'm ex-
periencing, then maybe some progress could happen, some-
thing could be done.

Summary - Group 1

In the preceding samplings of Group l's reaction

to the various teacher presentations, we note movement from

defensiveness and closure to ease and openness with regard

to the presentations. We will, as earlier indicated, show

this movement on a rating chart and graph in Chapter IV.

While internalization is not yet complete and there is still

some struggle, and even pain, as a result of the learning

process, this is viewed as a constructive first step. As

the learner becomes less resistant to new knowledge, he is

in a better position to make a value decision around it for

his own personal life.
 79

Group #2

Sampling 1 - Monday

Client #1

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): Well, I've got a real hang-up

with the lecturer. In fact, I was desperately wanting
to go up there so I could give him the message last
night. For two years, I've been hearing about him, and
people seem to have been using me as a guinea pig, imi-
tating him.

(Co.): You seem to have some difficulty in...

Statement 2. (Cl. 1): I'm extremely hostile to

being used as a guinea pig.

(Co.): People are, in some way, you feel, using

you.

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): Yes, it bugs the hell out of

me.

(Co.): You use the word "guinea pig", and you just
resent, like hell, being used as a guinea pig...

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): I resent the hell out of

people coming into my life and acting like a damn coun-
selor, and me, the sick person.

(Co.): You resent being put in the role of a sick

person.

Statement 5. (Cl. 1): You bet I do! I'm not sick.

Just because I have certain feelings about things does-
n't make me sick. Everybody's got feelings.

(Co.): I think you're saying that, in some way,

everybody has deep feelings, and that because we feel
in a certain way, doesn't mean we need to be continually
in the client role. We want be treated as persons.

Statement 6. (Cl. 1): Right. But I feel very hos-

tile, and my feelings are still there. So the counsel-
ing that I got, I would say, did not help me. Here...
up till last night, I wasn't sure whether I was glad or
mad that I had come...well, not mad, but disappointed
with what was happening.
 80

(Co.): Actually, what you're sort of fighting with

is almost a myth, aren't you?

Client 1 shows a high level of hostility in the

small group toward the person of the knower. If this hos-

tility were not allowed to be openly expressed, the client

may never be able to get beyond it to actually hear what the

knower is saying. In fact, the client makes no reference to

the content of the presentation but speaks only of his per-

sonal difficulty with the knower.

Client #2

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): One of the things that I

would like to think about with you would be the fact
that I think sometimes it's much easier to talk about a
world of ideas than it is to talk about feelings. And I
also feel that I could intellectualize ideas, but that I
would find it a little more difficult to be comfortable
with the discussion and the honest admission of
feelings that I have.

Client 2 seems to be speaking of his difficulty in a

whole-person communication. In the inseminational model,

the learner is given the opportunity to recognize the place

of feelings in learning.

(Co.): Feelings are harder to bring out into the

open than just discussing practical ideas or just ideas.

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): I think, oftentimes, I would

be able to converse with people on a level where we
could be very much on the idea level; being able to talk
about subject matter, or teaching ability, or things of
this kind. But if something would really upset me, I
think it might not be as easy for me to say, "I feel up-
set in this situation".

(Co.): You're kind or risking something when you're

 81

giving your own emotions or ideas. whereas ideas can be

a cut and dried thing, you're really giving yourself
when there's some feelings.

Statement 3. (Cl. 2): Right, and I think there's

something to be said about a person saying, or about me
saying, this is my feeling at this moment, and I, in a
sense, want to own this feeling. And it would be like
being able to say, "I really feel depressed in this sit-
uation". I can't say that, basically, I am a person who
is depressed. But even so, even for me to say that to
one of my friends...

(Co.): It's hard to put your trust in someone, to

let them know your real feelings.

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): Yes, I think so. I also think

that, for a person, and for me, to be able to think and
to say, you know, "I feel in such a way because..." and
give a reason for feeling this way is... like, this is
the reason I feel this way, too. This would be good for
me to be able to verbalize sometimes. And I think it
would be much easier to say it's a nice day and that
St. Paul is the capital of Minnesota or...

(Co.): You find it very difficult to verbalize your

emotions and your feelings. However, you don't have
trouble with just ideas or facts.

Statement 5. (Cl. 2): See, I would say, I think,

basically, I know that feelings are important and that I
do have these feelings. Sometimes I am able to express
this. But I think that maybe it would be easier to say
that I can recognize someone having this feeling. But
for me to own this feeling myself, I think, is what might
be helpful to me.

(Co.) 3 Maybe it's easier to recognize a feeling in

someone else than it is to recognize it in yourself. To
express this feeling from yourself you can see it in
other people.

Statement 6. (Cl. 2): You see, as I think about

that, too, I think that if I were able to do this more
honestly, I think I would, in a sense, be opening myself
or unfolding myself to be more transparent.

(Co.): You might feel much better once this was

done, but it's really difficult to trust someone and to
this out in the open.

Statement 7. (Cl. 2): Right, and I think, too, that

it doesn't mean that every single time that I have a
 82

certain feeling or emotion that I would have to neces-

sarily...everytime that everyone has to know what you
are feeling. But I think I would have the tendency not
to share this kind of emotion.

(Co.): So you feel that you'd like to be able to

express your emotions to other people. Maybe not all
the time, but you'd just like to feel free. So that
when you felt like telling people how you feel you
won't be holding it inside, you'd just be free to be
able to tell people.

Client 2 is expressing his difficulty in expressing

feeling. In our counseling-learning model, unless he is

somewhat free to do this, the internalization of values is

limited, if not negated entirely.

Client #3
Statement 1. (Cl. 3): I think my biggest problem
right now with this whole workshop is the'idea that I
was forced to come. That I feel that I could be getting
a lot more out of it and I would feel a lot more free
hc3 I not been told that I had to come.

Client 3 starts off with a typical resistance in

many learning situations, i.e., his resistance to being

there. If not recognized, this resistance can remain a

block to learning.

(Cc.): You resent that you were forced to come.

Statement 2. (Cl. 3): Very much. And I think that

a lot of the things I could have gotten out of it have
been just blocked out. Then I kind of wonder, well,
maybe, if I hadn't been forced to come, I wouldn't have
come. I don't imagine so. I kind of toy w:.th the idea
that maybe I'm getting something out of it chat I
wouldn't have, but, you know, I feel that the whole week
I'm going to feel so hostile toward the person that made
me come that it just kind of...i.C's a shame. I think
the reason that I feel so hostile, too, is that it seems
completely contrary to the idea of the whole thing.
That there's supposed to be some sort of freedom. You're
supposed to be free to express your feelings, and that
you should be understood. Whereas when I express my

>i0
 83

feelings about not really caring to come, I was just

completely turned off. You know, there was absolutely
no understanding...

(Co.): Your feelings weren't understood, at all.

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): No, and for someone to tell

me that the reason that you're going is so you can have
this freedom, whereby, we can all be free to talk to
each other and free to discuss these things...and then,
when I try to discuss just anything, it's just like
"well, there's a time and a place to be free and now is
not the time".

(Co.): You resent it then when you really feel that

you need to be understood and you need to talk about your
feelings, there's no opportunity on...you're really ask-
ing, "listen to me, feel my feelings".

Statement 4. (Cl. 3): Yes, I feel there's not...

between two o'clock and three o'clock we're going to be
free and between two o'clock and three o'clock we'll
have this time to express yourself. But, hell, if you
try to tell me how y.0 feel any other time, you can lose
your job. And I just think that whole idea is just
carrying on throughout the week, and it's doing a lot of
damage to anything that I could get out of the whole
workshop...

(Co.): You feel very hostile about the workshop, in

general, and hostile, too, to the person who demanded
that you really come. Your feelings are very hostile
here.

Statement 5. (Cl. 3): Yeah, mean, to the point

where when that person walks in the room, I just get...
and I'm afraid that, if he would ever come into the ses-
sion, I'd probably fall on the floor or something. You
know, it's that strong.

(Co.): You feel angry.

Statement 6. (Cl. 3): Yes. And I don't feel that I

could talk to him and expresr, my hostilities because I've
been turned off twice by him.

(Co.): Ard you are saying that you feel that he

doesn't understand you so you couldn't talk to him.

Statement 7. (Cl. 3): Yes, that he doesn't want to.

(Co.): He doesn't want to understand you.

91)
 84

The client is bringing his past negative experience

with him into the learning situation. Until he can be freed

of them, it will be difficult for him to be open to new

learning.

Statement 8. (Cl. 3): Right. That if my feelings

were the same as his (teacher's), well, then, it would
be fine to express them. And that he'd be glad to under-
stand them, while if they're not what he feels, then,
keep your damn mouth shut.

(Co.): You feel really upset and you feel kind of

put-upon, you feel rejected. You feel rejection because
there's not time to hear you. And you feel fearful to
reall'7 express how you feel anytime.

Statement 9. (Cl. 3): Yes. To that person. To

other people, you know, I feel that I can get some kind
of understanding. But to that person, I've tried to ex-
press my feelings, and I was told that I wasn't being
cooperative, you know. And maybe, I really didn't want
to work there, you know, and...

(Co.): You feel it's a personal thing with this

person.

Statement 10. (Cl. 3): Yes.

(Co.): He wants it a certain way and you are

really....

Statement 11. (Cl. 3): Right. He wants it a certain

way, and if you can't play the game the way that he wants
it...

(Co.): Than you can't play the game.

Statement 12. (Cl. 3): Yes. So I feel that there's

just a big wall in front of me and there's no way of get-
ting...

(Co.): Over it.

Statement 13. (Cl. 3): Right.

(Co.): Yor feel there's no way around it, or

through it, or over it.
 85

Statement 14. (Cl. 3): Right. I can see nothing in

the future as far as communication between the two of us.

(Co.): You don't feel that you are being understood,

at all.

Statement 15. (Cl. 3): Right.

(Co.): And there's no chance to be understood. No

opportunity. You feel very lonely because of this lack
of understanding.

Statement 16. (Cl. 3): I feel lonely so ;far as that

one person goes, but I feel like I can express my feel-
ings to other people.

(Co.): But this one person, you feel very Ladly

about it. Very lonely, very angry. You feel rejected.

Statement 17: (Cl. 3): Yes

Afterwards, Client 3 expressed his "relief" in being

understood. While he totally by-passed the content of the

presentation and focused on his own affect, one can see how

he might now be more open to the next presentation.

ClieWc. #4

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): I have really been involved

in many things, and, especially, the inability, some-
times, to express how we feel, and the real feelings of
hostility and anger that were able to be expressed; and
how we feel about them. Because what happened was, I
went back to the fact that I felt, until not too long
ago, that it was not possible to be angry. And now, I
feel angry about many things.

This open admission of feeling in Client 4 came out

of a learning situation which was centrally cognitive. As a

result of entering into an inseminational model, he seemed

to be free to experience a whole-person communication.

 86

(Co.): Trying to express t e motion rather than

conceal it.

Statement 2. (Cl. 4): Yes, I ink I'm a person

who has a great deal of deep tmotfons that I can't say,
i.d I feel angry very often. And I'm learning to say,
"A. feel very angry", and I think I received a great deal
of encouragement from your ability to say you're angry
and hostile and upset about certain things. This morn-
ing, something occurred when I was taking my series of
medicines. Because I had a bad headache, a very good
friend wanted me to have a great deal more faith and
trust in God and skip all these medicines. But I've
been puzzled by this. Why should I feel angry about his
telling me I shouldn't be taking all these medicines?

(Co.): Why should he be giving you advice?

Statement 3. (Cl. 4): We've been friends since I

was about eighteen. We haven't been together for a long
time and we just saw an opportunity to really visit. So
we met for breakfast and he spoke to me about if after-
wards. I really respect his point of view. I've often
questioned why I have to take so many medicines, but then
I go ahead and do it. My responsive feelings toward him
about my medicine were...I'm not sure if I'm angry or...

(Co.): You're unable to coanize your real emotions.

Statement 4. (Cl. 4): Maybe I'm trying to think too

hard about what I feel. And just say I have to do what
I have to do. I feel badly, I guess that's what I want
to say. I feel badly, that with the caring relationship
we've had all our lives, to have him enter in here...

(Co.): You have very mixed feelings about it.

Statement 5. (Cl. 4): I have very mixed feelings

about it. Good ones that he cared and anger. I know
there's anger in there. Since I don't express anger
very well, it's hard for me to pull that one out. Some-
thing in me is saying, "someone else is supposed to take
care of that (medicines), I'm doing what I'm supposed to
be doing so leave it ;Alone". And maybe I'm feeling that,
"you ought to know I love God and trust him, how can you
say I don't just because I'm taking all of this medicine?"

(Co.): You feel misunderstood by him.

Statement 6. (Cl. 4): I feel misunderstood. I do,

very much misunderstood.

(Co.): And this really bothers you.

9J
 87

Statement 7. (Cl. 4): Yes. I'm misunderstood and

bothered by it. I don't know why I'm bothered by it. I
don't know what the feeling is, and what it is that's
making me feel bothered, puzzled...

(Co.): Hurt: Because you felt you had this deep

understanding with him?

Statement 8. (Cl. 4): Yes. Maybe I'm saying when

we care about another a..d you've known a lot about each
other and spent a great deal of time together, we recog-
nize that another person must be where he is, and we
don't ask or we don't...I don't know what I'm feeling.
I'm feeling that we wanted some time together to really
iild out about each other's worlds. And it's like tell-
in! me, "about one part of your world -- I don't like
it". I guess I'm feeling rejected.

(Co.): He's missed your world somehow.

Statement 9. (Cl. 4): He missed that part of my

world. And it's bothering me. I didn't give you an easy
one, I'm sorry.

As with Client 3 of this group, Client 4 did not get

into the content of the presentation. He first needed to

free himself of his deep feelings. This would not he differ-

ent from many learning situations at the outset.

Sampling 2 - Wednesday

Client #1

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): I'm taking a risk and in

taking this risk I can really get hurt, or I can make
some progress and assume or become something more.

(Co.): So you can continue to grow, you can be full

of life, if the person understands you. But if he does-
n't, then you're just dead.

Statement 2. (Cl. 1): I'm either dead or, at the

present, if I'm not understood, I'm going to withdraw.
I think my own thoughts instead of sharing my thoughts.

(Co.): You will turn yourself off.

 88

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): I'll turn myself off if some-

one doesn't want to listen to me.

(Co.): But if he's not open to the ground, if the

ground is hard like a rock, you won't put your seed in
anywhere.

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): I think my seed would be

scattered, my idea would be gone. I'd pull it in and
play with it myself; think about it myself.

(Co.): You would be doing it totally by yourself,

you wouldn't be sharing with anyone anymore.

Statement 5. (Cl. 1): I wouldn't be fulfilling the

idea that to know something is to have responsibility,
because I see the concept of responsibility as: I'm re-
sponsible for those around me and responsible for shar-
ing this wonderful thing I know. If I withdraw and come
inward, if I'm fearful and can't take a risk then...

In the client's statements thus far, we see him

struggle to digest the content of the knower's presentation

which partially dealt with the notion of risk involved in

authentic communication. While he is not openly resistant,

he shows the typical learner difficulty in accepting what is

new to him. Intellectually, he can see the need for taking

a risk but he is fearful of making it operational.

(Co.): No one else would be getting the benefit of

your ideas and your thoughts, you would just be keeping
them to yourself.

Statement 6. (Cl. 1): One thing that bothers me is

someone coming to me needing to benefit from my ideas.
I think what I want is someone to understand my idea and
let me work with it. Someone to tell me that my idea is
an O.K. one, it's good, it's acceptable.

(Co.): You want them not only to listen but also to

sort of be reassuring. He should be listening openly
and either accept or reject your ideas. But you just
want to have that chance to give your ideas and then have
him share some with you.

9)
 89

Statement 7. (Cl. 1): Yes, I get the feeling that I

want to say "if you're going to be listening to me, and
I can tell you my ideas, then my ideas going around in
my head are growing. If you turn me off, I think my
idea won't grow like it could have grown." Instead, it
would go around in circles inside, cr I'll go look fbr
someone else who won't mind my taking a risk with them.

(Co.): You want to kind of toss it around in your

own head while, at the same time, you're verbalizing to
someone else, and you want to be receptive to it so you
can kind of bear it out.

Statement 8. (Cl. 1): Yes, if I think out loud. If

I know something, I have a responsibility to share it.
This is our first concept we're working with and I find
myself wanting to say things like-, "if this thing I know
is good, then, I find myself wanting to share it." And
the only way to share anything is to have my friend or
my listener, or whoever it is listening to me. But I
think sharing is interactive. I think that that person,
for example, we're in a situation where we're sharing
with each other right now. So you keep coming back to
me.and I've given you cognitive ideas. And I told you I
had something I wanted to tell you. And you've come
back with pulling out some of my ideas and trying to
help me to go further.

(Co.): So maybe you are hearing your own ideas and

you can see how they sound..

Statement 9. (Cl. 1): Yes, or if you don't tell me

my idea like I think I said it, then I want to be able
to say to you, "No, th 's not the way I said it, I said
it this way".

(Co.): You don't want to be misinterpreted.

Statement 10. (Cl. 1): Not so much misinterpreted

as m..slnderstood.

(Co.): So you want people to understand what you're

saying. You've got these ideas you want to share with
other people. And you want to know that they understand
what you're saying, and if they're not, you w,nt to clar-
ify it. So that they can be sharing your ideas.

Statement 11. (Cl. 1): That's right.

In his final statements, the client expresses a need

to be understood not just on an affective level, but cogni-

96
 90

tive as well. He seems to be experiencing in some measure

the intellectual content of the knower.

Client #2

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): Well, I think that the idea

that he (the teacher) was trying to get across was that
we're to become more aware of each other. We're going
to become more aware through listening to other people
and trying to understand what other people are saying.
And
(Co.): Listening makes us aware of people.

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): Right. And without being

aware of other people, it's just like everybody's dead.
Life is only through understanding.

(Co.): Awareness of people may help us to understand

people and to know people and to, somehow, have the sense
of where they're at.

Statement 3. (Cl. 2): Right. And things are chang-

ing. People are becoming more aware of this need. It's
the only way to help people. If I have an idea I want
to get across to someone I don't want them to just say,
"Well, that's a great idea, that's a bad idea". I don't
want judgment on it. But rather, I want them to listen
to what I have to say and to understand it, because
without listening, I just become totally frustrated.

(Co.): You feel that if people listen with an open

non-judgmental frame of mind...

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): Right. I just want to ex-

press myself and I don't want peope to say, "That's a
bad idea or, sometimes, a good idea". But you just have
to be understood and...

(Co.): Understanding takes an open person who will

not, in any way, make your actions meaningful or not
meaningful.

Statement 5. (Cl. 2): And they have to be open,

like when he (the teacher) was talking about the ground.
When you're sowing a seed, the ground is hard, which
would be an unreceptive person--nothing happens to either
person--I can't grow because no one's listening to me.
And that person can't grow either, because he's not
listening to what I have to say.

9'
 91

As with Client 1 of this group, this client also

shows no open resistance to the material. Instead, he is

trying to internalize it. As we stated earlier in our defi-

nition of understanding, there is no issue here of whether

or not the client agrees with the material. He is merely

trying to internalize it to see how it "fits" him. Later,

he can make a choice to accept or reject it.

Client #3

Statement 1. (Cl. 3): One of the things that seemed

to say something, or be meaningful to me, as a creative
reaction to the lecture was the thought that he gave when
he said a threatened ego works towards death. I think
that I would have to say that I find there something
meaningful. Because, in my own situation, I think that
when I feel threatened as an individual- it is, in a
sense, that I'm cutting off a chance to be open and re-
ceptive.

(Co.):You feel that you're withdrawing when you're

threatened. That you're closing off to the other person
who threatens you.

Statement 2. (Cl. 3): Yes. That's exactly how I

would see it. And I think when someone with a great
talent might come to interact with me or, in some way,
would show that he had great skill in something, that,
in a sense, would be a situation in which we would be in.
I would have to sit back and evaluate how I feel about
myself. Does it have to be competitive, in the sense
that I would feel compelled to exceed or supercede this
expert who has these great talents.

(Co.): You would like to make a comparison there

and see how you would stand with a person of talent.

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): I think, first, I would say

that there might be a tendency to want to do this. But
as I think about the situtation, it really doesn't
matter whether I would be that capable or not. What
matters would be how do I feel about myself in this sit-
uation. Do I feel that I have worked beyond my capabil-
ities to have a Ph.D. in chemistry or whatever it might
be.
 92

Kind of recognize your own potential and

(Co.):
then cope with your own potential and accept the others.

Statement 4. (Cl. 3): I would say that it might not

be something that I would be concerned about the poten-
tial or the ability, as it would be the way I feel about
myself as a person. Can I say that I feel comfortable
in the sense that I know I can relate to others, and I
would be more important for who I am than what I can do.

(Co.): A whole person rather than an intelligent

one.

Statement 5. (Cl. 3): Probably as someone who has

an ability to relate to other people and to have other
people relate to me. To know that I am important just
because I'm me and not because I'm able to accomplish
any great thing. Because I think...

(Co.): You wanted to be accepted for yourself and

not for your talents.

Statement 6. (Cl. 3): Yes, I would say that talent

is important but what difference dues it make, if I can
invent something or be in some way present to the people
I am living with and working with.

(Co.): To be a person, to relate to people from a

person-to-person...

Statement 7. (Cl. 3): Yes. Or in a sense, to be

freed of these exterior things, you know. What differ-
ence does it make if I can act in any specific way; just
so I can free myself and just be me. That's the import-
ant thing.

(Co.): Who you are not what you are.

Statement 8. (Cl. 3): Right. And I think when I

feel that the self would be threatened, that would be,
in a sense, killing all possible growth. Kind of like
the first thing that I started with - a kind of summa-
tion.

(Co.): That ego, when threatened, means death.

Statement 9. (Cl. 3): Yes.

Client 3 has taken a different aspect of the material

to look at in relation to himself, namely, the death-wish

9.)
 93

which was part of the lecture. In the inseminational model

it will often be true that different learners relate to dif-

ferent topics as more important. This seems to bear out the

notion of the "seed" falling on different "soil" and is dif-

ferently received by each learner.

Client #4

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): I get hung up on words - on

response and reaction because reaction means affective
rather than cognitive and response, to me, is cognitive.
But anyhow, I'll take the word understanding. To me,
understanding is love - it's synonymous with love, With-
out understanding a person, you cannot have love. When
a person feels understood, he feels loved. When he does
feel misunderstood, he feels isolated. I think that
sometimes this is the real cause of all mental illness.
Because "no man is an island" and, when a person feels
misunderstood, he becomes an island and he panics. I
think this causes mental illness.

(Co.): You're saying that as we become isolated

when not understood, we panic because we're not under-
stood and this makes us so uncomfortable we withdraw.
And this could lead to mental illness.

Statement 2. (Cl. 4): Sometimes a person withdraws

to such an extent he enters into a world of fantasy.

(Co.): He lives along within himself in a world

that is more comfortable. Fantasy is something he can
build up to understanding his fantasy.

Statement 3. (Cl. 4): He feels so thoroughly mis-

understood that he had to create for himself a world
where he is comfortable.

(Co.): This world of being comfortable is this

fantasy world - an understanding world within oneself.
Are you following me? I think I'm probably not hearing
you very well. I think what I'm saying is you're tell-
ing me that when I'm not understanding you, that you
want to withdraw rather than help me to understand you.

Statement 4. (Cl. 4): True.

(Co.): I kind of sensed this "if you don't get me

100
 94

pretty soon there's no point in my saying anything." I

think that's kind of a good thing because I know I felt
that little panic for a while.

Statement S. (Cl. 4): I have to stop a moment to

try to understand what you were saying about "is this
fantasy?" When you asked me if the fantasy world was
comfortable for this person.

The client is somewhat distracted by the poor re-

sponse of the counselor. At one point, the counselor seems

to be injecting his own ideas into the client's communica-

tion, and the client resists him. This kind of "sparring"

often takes place in a discussion but usually is not ad-

verted to. It should be noted that the counselors in the

groups were not necessarily professionals, and so their re-

sponses may often be inadequate. However, this can serve to

illustrate what may readily happen in any learning situation

where the learners are trying to understand either the

knower or their own peers. They soon develop the skill of

understanding and the process goes more smoothly. In the

following, however, we see the counselor still interfering

with his own reaction.

(Co.): I guess I was trying.to find out more about

your concept of a fantasy world, and I don't think I
came back to you very well. I liked your idea. I think
you told me that, if a person understands you, you can
talk to that person and interact. But if I can't under-
stand you then you can't respond so you would go inside
yourself and build a fantasy world where you will be
comfortable.

Statement 6. (Cl. 4): Yes. If the person who is

misunderstood constantly - a person who feels misunder-
stood by everyone with whom he comes in contact and
cannot find a person to relate with - this is the basic
cause of mental illness.

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 95

(Co.): I think this is very interesting and I think

it has real meaning.

Statement 7. (Cl. 4): Because in being misunder-

stood, the person also feels unloved. He feels kind
of alone.

(Co.): You mean, to understand you is to love you

and if I don't understand you, I really don't love you.

Statement 8. (Cl. 4): I feel that most people...

(Co.): Well, I like this idea that if I understand
you and you understand me, then, we really have taken
the time to understand each other. Therefore, to take
time is to love each other.

Statement 9. (Cl. 4): Yes, because there has to

be some love present in order to take the time and the
patience with the person, and it requires love to a
great degree. One might feel bored by having to sit
and listen to someone who isn't really helping them to
grow.

(Co.): And if we love, we won't be bored - you're

saying.

Statement 10. (Cl. 4): Yes.

(Co.): We'll be listeners - open and able to hear.

Statement 11. (Cl. 4): Yes, and to me this is

where redemption comes in. We can redeem each other
by simply listening and understanding what we're hear-
ing.

In the final statements, the counselor seems to be

doing a more effective job of understanding and one can

sense the client's relief. Without an opportunity to ex-

plore the "seed" through an internalization process of

understanding, the learner may never be allowed an adequate

choice to accept or reject the material.

 96

Sampling 3 - Friday

Client ill

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): I think the main gist of this

session was to give us the importance of words. Words
have a way of...I guess they've been trying to tell us
that a word is a symbol to describe our feelings. And
once we get the proper symbolization to describe our own
emotions, we can get this episcopic view of ourselves
and somehow go through the underbrush by using these
symbols - the words. And I got a lot of insights into
some of the words. They were given to us so fast that I
was afraid I wouldn't absorb them all, and I'm sure I
didn't. But words like "gnosis" is the knowleage of
yourself and "logos" is a cognitive type of word. And
sometimes in counseling, just one word will help you to
get this episcopic view.

In the above statement, the 'client is highly cogni-

tive. There is a genuine struggle to get the meaning of the

khower's presentation. This, however, is not a depersona-

lized intellectualism on the part of the client. He clearly
relates it to himself.
1

(Co.): So, as we become more clear in the use of

Words as symbols...you're saying that you can then make
yourself understood better. You can feel more under-
stood as a counselor responds to you with certain words.
Words become very important.

Statement 2. (Cl. 1): Right. And sometimes we

Can't find the proper word or the proper symbol to give
us insight into our feelings.

(Co.): So there really is a word, if we can find

Words for ourselves, that help us to look and to feel
who we are.

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): Yes, and once we are able to

do this and to get insight into ourselves using the
symbols, we will have enough insight into getting our-
selves out of this pathetic or pathos state in which we
all are sinners. Because we are sinners in a pathetic
 97

state. Once we move ourselves out of that state, we are

free to love ourselves and, when we love ourselves, we
love ourselves enough not to sin.

(Co.): The whole concept, then, of understanding

the meaning of words, gives more depth to the whole
concept of understanding the meaning of our lives.

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): Yes. It can give you insight

into your own spiritual life as well as...

As the "seed" takes root in the client, he clearly

makes what he has heard his own. He makes it highly person-
al.

Client #2

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): I'm kind of a little in-

trigued by the idea of the words being a way to clarity.
The simplicity of a word can give insight to ourselves
or, perhaps, can give someone else insight into us, too.
I hear him (the teacher) saying that the counselor, hav-
ing a knowledge of words, can use these_words to help
the counselor gain insight.

(Co.): Its amazing how one word can just open up

everything.

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): He suggests specific words

to be used in specific situations, and I just have to
say that probably the reason I'm struggling so, is that
I reject a great deal of this.

Client 2 speaks of his difficulty in accepting the

knower's mode of presentation. He still has some difficulty

in letting "the seed enter in". We will see that he is also

somewhat threatened by the lecturer's peculiar use of words.

He wants the lecturer to conform to his own pattern.

(Co.): It's hard to keep yourself open to something

that you don't quite agree with.

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 98

Statement 3. (Cl. 2): Yes. You see, I see meaning-

fulness in words, that doesn't bother me at all. But,
I find myself sitting there not wanting to get all tied
up in more words and more pictures and more stuff.

(Co.): You kind of turn him off.

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): My mind hears everything he

says and I want to give him his point of view, but I
submit that he is communicating to me ideas that I'm
probably going to have to struggle with a while if I'm
ever going to accept any of these words as meaningful.
I think one of my reasons is my observation of people.
When a new word is tossed out, it's a struggle for
everyone to find out what he means by that word. And I
see the interaction between people as not having to be
an interaction with all kinds of special words to give
you insight here, here, here and here.

(Co.): The idea of him presenting certain words...

you find words very important, but you don't like anyone
tossing them at you all at once.

Statement 5. (Cl. 2): I like to use my own words.

I guess I don't like anyone telling me there are words I
ought to use, and this word means this, and this concept
holds these kinds of words, with which I'll find my way.

(Co.): You kind of resent being told what to do and

!low to do it.

Statement 6. (Cl. 2): That's good, you're telling

me I do resent it. And I'm sure I'm sitting there re-
sisting it without any doubt.

The client's final statement indicates insight into

his own resist, .ce. While he may not agree with what he

heard, at some future time he may be sufficiently open to

truly understand it.

Client #3

Statement 1. (Cl. 3): One of the phrases that was

used, I think, has some kind of significance and that is
what I think he said, "when a person is lost, they tra-
vel in circles". I think that, for me, that has a cer-
tain kind of significance, because I think that when I
 99

get overly involved in my work, since I have to say

that I belong to many committees and many organizations.
And I think sometimes the schedules can be very tight
and you can very easily get caught up in the cycle.

We see in this client's statement not just an intel-

lectual understanding but a high degree of internalization.

(Co.): Then, if I hear you correctly, you're say-

ing, "all these things I'm doing keep me full of much
running around. I feel like I'm running in circles and
I can be lost from the very first thing that I have as a
priority".

Statement 2. (Cl: 3): Yes. I think there are times

when I could say that I am going in circles, and that it
would be almost like you have a schedule where you are
supposed to be at this meeting at this time. And I
would say that the lecturer kind of summarized that kind
of activity when he said that...It doesn't characterize
my whole life, but sometimes it is like this.

(Co.): I'm kind of lost, though, as to how you

really feel about this. You feel a little clarity on
this - you say that it is all right to do this.

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): I'm saying that this is not

something that one would want. I'm not saying this is
how I would like things to be. Somehow, to be involved
in many things is a good thing, but at the same time, I
think there has to be certain priorities that a person
has to set in his .Life. And, particularly, I think I
would find myself having to set my omn priorities, since
I am a religious and have committed myself to the Church,
to the community, and to Christ. And, therefore, I'm
saying that sometimes I've very definitely felt that I
have been over-active. And the priority of my religious
commitment has not always had an opportunity to take
first place.

(Co.): Then the lecturer's statement really gives

you a feeling of helping you to reset the priorities.

Statement 4. (Cl. 3): Yes, I would say so.

In his final statements, the client seems to have

arrived at a choice - to make operational the content of the

presentation.
 100

Client #4

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): I guess in the explanation

of people in the process of change, we have to consider
how people resist it and how some are in the anticipa-
tion of changes. In a counseling-learning situation, I
guess this has to be taken into consideration. He point-
ed out that in the case of Saint Paul, Saint Paul's
little message, where he says, "I would that you are but
are not". In other words, I feel that Saint Paul was
saying that he hoped the people were-further, like in
stage five, instead of where they are, in stage one. So
instead of Saint Paul presenting to these people a
learning situation, which would be in five, he had to
present to them something a little less intense or...

(Co.): Probably people that are resisting change

need to be dealt with in a special way, and you are re-
ferring to Saint Paul.

Statement 2. (Cl. 4): Yes, I feel that the lecturer

brought out that little message of Saint Paul's in order
to show us that a person...I don't know what to say. I
guess I haven't fully cognized this...But he felt that
people then were too childish and too carnal to come
into being. In order to find a sense of quality.

(Co.): In other words, the people who lived during

the time of Saint Paul had a real struggle to change, to
adapt to the things that Saint Paul was trying to...

Statement 3. (Cl. CI: Yes. They call it...I feel

that probably Paul felt that they were resisting the
change.

(Co.): And that he wished that they were more adult

and was disappointed that they were still children.

Statement 4. (Cl. 4): Yes.

Summary - Group 2

As with Group 1, Group 2 appears to show a similar

movement from resistance to openness between the first and

third samplings. Again, while there is a lack of total open-

ness, there is a growing security in allowing the words of

10
 101

the teacher-knower to enter in and germinate. Were it not

for the fact that the client-learners were given the oppor-

tunity to cognize their resistance, this resistance could

become more solidified as the learning process continued.

Group #3

Sampling 1 - Monday

Client #1

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): I was probably reacting. I

hope I was responding to what I saw as the probable sit-
uation: that which had occurred. I had a background of
seeing something occur where this kind of reaction could
occur and presumed that was this situation.

(Co.): Do you find yourself distracted with those

thoughts?

Statement 2. (Cl. 1): I didn't think of them as a

distraction. No...I felt I was understanding. I was
sort of appreciating the fact that how these people had
not heard him, so now he was listening to them and they
were finding out that he could listen - that wasn't the
problem. Whether they actually heard the final conclu-
sion, well, I guess it maybe came out of their speaking-
well, they didn't seem to have clarified it completely
and he didn't attempt to clarify it. I was thinking,
that they had not been aware of their need to listen to
him before. They hadn't caught that message. They were
saying, why didn't you listen to me and he wasn't sup-
posed to have been listening to them.

In the above two statements of Client 1, he is not

sure whether he correctly understood the presentation. He

is hesitant, holding back, not yet fully committed to the

learning process. However, he is struggling to be open.

(Co.): But he gave them the example, the example of

listening.
 102

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): When the situation was such,

I ,71n't know, I just object. I can't say anything
further about what I saw. Maybe that's far too object-
ive but that's what I felt.

(Co.): As a clarification, did you interpret his

listening as a chance to prove the point of listening?
Or did you see it as a part of the workshop?

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): I don't .I saw either

one. I think I simply saw him rt .d...eg to a situation.
The situation arose and he respondea to the situation, a
very human real life thing. I didn't put it as a work-
shop; I didn't put it as a gimmick. I saw it as this
was what happened and he responded to it.

(Co.): An honest response.

Statement 5. (Cl. 1): Very honest. It had to be

set up. It was sort of a...he was determined about the
contract. In one case, there was the contract for him
to speak, to be the quiet teacher and'for them to be the
listeners. And in the other case, this particular case
that we saw, he had made a contract with the listener.
They were to be the group...

(Co.): Counselors...

Statement 6. (Cl. ): Well, they weren't counselors

really, they were speakers. I want to say students,
clients...

(Co.): And he was freeing them from their hangup.

Client #2

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): It didn't interest me. Some-

times he gets off on these things and I want him to say
more. I guess...and so when does change take place? So
it varies, everybody is at a different level. As he
gave the example of automobiles turning on their lights
and automobile lights being turned on and the approach
of darkness and, if course, some people need the lights
sooner than others. There might be the need of confi-
dence with their lights on and so feeling confident of
knowing people can see me coming.

In his responses, Client 2 is giving a highly intel-

lectualized and depersonalized recitation of what he had

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 103

heard. It is as though it has no personal meaning for him

but remains outside of him.

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): Creative reaction has not

entered into my consideration of the material. Because
I have been in this process of change, myself. I would
say, my own life in the priesth(od. I had almost thir-
teen, fourteen years pre-conciliar, and how many are we
afterwards, eight or so years afterwards. I was in a
world where it demanded a change. The world I was in,
during the time of the Council, was a very small town in
Chile. A Jesuit was the authority and there were thir-
teen other.Jesuit priests. I was the only non-Jesuit
present there. We all worked together very well and the
Episcopsy of Chile...was very mud). advanced and

(Co.): The change was alrc,dy part of the....long

before this became a part of the Council.

Statement 3. (Cl. 2): Oh, yes, change was...there

was a certain closeness there, and so the whole change
of our life was together. There was a togetherness
there when it came to the changing of the habit; letting
go of the cassock, letting go of the breviary and taking
on other prayer forms. There is always this change. I
am still in a world right now that is resisting change
and so I was able to appreciate his explanation of
change...

(Co.): How long it takes.

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): Because having changed to a

different locale, I found that change was more rapid in
other places. Here I can see people still resisting
change.

(Co.): You lived with the prophets and you've lived

with the people who are extremely conservative, too, so
you...

In his final responses, Client 2 seems to have made

a complete reversal in internalizing the material. Perhaps

through the understanding of the counselor, he was less

threatened by it and so could better relate it to himself.

110
 104

Client #3

Statement 1. (Cl. 3): I don't know that I can reit-

erate much more than what you have said except that I'd
like to say that it was easier for me to follow this
time. I'm not quite in a haze

(Co.): You aren't quite as lost.

Statement 2. (Cl. 3): That's right. Oh, boy! I

was really lost last time. But what worked before, I
think that's the big thing, isn't working now and, in
the change, I think what I really got more and more out
of it is his use of scripture...in applying scripture
to this whole bit. That each one of us is worth some-
thing and we have to bring the value of another person
out, especially, in our counseling and our realization
that they are worth much more.

(Co.): So you did seem to catch, especially this

time, another example of appreciating the person.

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): That's right. That's what I

got, and when we do that, we bring the newness of the
other .And the redemptive power to them; when we recog-
nize who they really are.

(Co.): And you saw this in a client-counseling re-

lationship?

Statement 4. (Cl. 3): That's right. The wholeness

of life is tied up in the Bible now. The message of
Christ comes through so forcefully in everything that
we do. If we know the right passage at the right time
we can really bring this forcefully to other people as
well and be the...the wholeness of Christ comes through.
This is reflective more than the...but that's what the
change does.

We see Client 3 quite open, although not sure he has

totally understood', and somewhat fearful. Through the under-

standing responses of his peer group acting as counselors,

he will be able more and more to accept and internalize what

he has heard.

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 105

Client #4

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): What seemed to strike me was

he was focusing on change. In the first part of it, I
was trying to figure out how he was relating this, and
trying to bring all this together because he said it was
a ramification. I guess I put in what he was saying on
change something he didn't state, but I felt what was
important there was, as a counselor, we need to under-
stand that people are willing to change at different
points. Some kind of predict it and find it easy. He
used the example of the forty-eight squares as an example
of how we can resist change when it's happened, you know,
not in a healthy way; but I saw this in my own mind,
too, as the central part of the counseling-learning pro-
cess. If we aren't aware of how change occurs in an in-
dividual, or can't see the point when a person is willing
to change, maybe...

(Co.): Can we live in the now with that person who

is counseling?

Statement 2. (Cl. 4): Let me see, where...I'm

thrown for a loop.

(Co.): You were talking about the change or when a

person is going to change. The change is going to take
place when the person is ready so the counselor is pre-
paring the person for a change.

Statement 3. (Cl. 4): And he was giving us a back-

ground in understanding change itself. That you accept
it at different points. I saw that as very valuable
understanding on the part of the counselor because it
would affect the evaluative stage, for example, in a
counseling process. And especially the last step, a
person might need more time to grope with the alterna-
tives and to be reflected.

(Co.): The integration of the material may take a

little more time, is that what you're trying to say?

Statement'4. (Cl. 4): Yes, and that's what I

thought was more important about understanding change.
As you mentioned in scripture, like only to the point
when a person is free to love himself, this would be
the point of really, really evaluating integration, of
making things very, very clear for that person and
sensing when that person might change. This might make
the biggest difference in how a person is sensitive to
it.

114
 106

(Co.): That might be a longer time of living, of

practicing it. Change can be incorporated...

Statement 5. (Cl. 4): Or being made to say I need

to change, no. At the point when you're ready to change
is what I was sensing.

In his initial statement,. Client 4 remains somewhat

removed from the material of the presentation, rather than

entering into it. He seems to take the position of the un-

involved observer.

Sampling 2 - Wednesday

Client #1

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): Well, I'm brand new at this.

I've never been in an experience like this. I feel the
great need of sympathizing. What had been said prior
and to be able to give it back...I don't have this art
at all. If you've noticed with anything I've done,
I've made a real effort but I can't yet...

(Co.): You feel insecure.

Statement 2. (Cl. 1): Very insecure. Because it

has to take just a few words to synthesize with what's
going on so that someone can jump from this one level of.
where they are to the other, and clarify it in their own
minds. Because I've done no formal counseling at all.
What I came for was really some information, so it's
just basic in that sense for me. This has helped a great
deal to know that. I've watched this whole thing from
Sunday night on. I've seen what has been done; but I
still have not accomplished it within myself. I know it's
a great need.

(Co.): You're beginning to see, too, that you can

progress in it.

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): Oh, yes. It's an absolute

necessity. But I never recognized that before because
I've never had the opportunity to, but it's still going
to take a long time to practice it. It's difficult to
leave these other worlds now and come back to what my
world was when I was watching that program. I was plac-

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 107

ing myself in a situation, surrounding it and interpret-

ing it in the light of a former situation where I had
seen the lecturer become very unhappy with someone who
had not listened to him and asked ,4 question rather than
respond to him. I was seeing Dick getting angry in that
type of situation. I'm not sure that was correct, but
that was...so I was presuming that I knew the background
and acting on that or listening to it in that sense. I
don't know, therefore, if I interpreted it correctly or
not. I don't even get what I'm saying.

(Co.): I think you're saying to me that you have

placed him (the teacher) in a situation prior to this
television program and you're placing Dick in a reaction
to him.

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): Yes. I had seen him in a

teaching situation before where had reacted very strong-
ly to someone's lack of listening and then I presumed
that this was what had happened. I, therefore, expected
that was what Dick was excited and angry about, and that
he (the teacher) had reacted to Dick and Dick didn't see
why he should have reacted to him. Having seen that
type of situation, that's what I'm presuming happened.

(Co.): But it never came out in the program what

actually had occurred.

Statement 5. (Cl. 1): No. So, actually, I was

sensing more than what was going on in the program.
But if I have to talk about what I was hearing in the
program that's what I was hearing.

(Co.): You can't be curtailed then by the program

itself. I mean, cut off a little bit.

Statement 6. (Cl. 1): I was sensing it out of my

particular world view.

(Co.): The issue was with another similar incident.

Statement 7. (Cl. 1): Yes. I was taking it out of

a situation that's part of my past. That word, curtail,
kind of hurtsme. On the other hand, that's perhaps an
honest word but I didn't like it. What I was seeing was
this particular kind of situation and that these people
were actually not understanding the lecturer and had so
indicated by their reactions in class, and that he had
consequently reacted very strongly to this one particu-
lar person. Call him Dick...I presume that's who it
was. That was simply the whole situation on which I was
working. I was hearing the lecturer now letting them
see that he could listen, but that had not been a situa-
 108

tion in which he was supposed to listen.

Client 1 is reacting in a way that is typical of the

adult learner. He is not only anxious, but he is filtering

what he had heard through his own background, and, in a

sense, distorting it.

Client #2

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): Because of our habit of fil-

tering, we don't come to an understanding of what people
are saying, that's going to awaken us...by this jolting
is what I mean.

(Co.): Uhuh.

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): Because of that filtering

process we all have...I can see myself as a pretty good
filter...not being able to give a broader type of under-
standing.

(Co.): So it does express a natural want, a need to

hold in. We're coping with ideas that we can understand.
It's with things that don't jar us or anything...

Statement 3. (Cl. 2): I see it on the symbol of the

baby food, too. How a mother is very careful in getting
the food plain enough so that baby can swallow it. It is
the same with our educational systems, especially...the
theological limitation of the priest in his catechetical
relationship with his people - always giving them the
baby food, not really treating them as adults in giving
them more of a solid understanding of the doctrine.

(Co.): Not just a filtering process, it's more of a

watering down process in making it so simple and so fine
that it can be grasped by the simpler person and then it
loses its value.

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): Another idea that struck me a

lot was the one you ended on. It really fascinated me...
this idea of what he said about living stones. The idea
of hearing without affectation, literally, I thought,
wow! That really put it where it is. I suppose I re-
lated it to scripture but it also relates to what he was
saying about a counselor who is Someone who does not re-
spond with affect. Someone who gives a deep understand-
 109

ing to another who is a living stone. That's what lets

the stone be living in that a seed is sown, or a knower
is heard by the learner. The knower is heard by someone
who wants to learn. And so the living stone is alive,
recognized. Now that's what makes community. The whole
idea of listening; of being understood, understanding,
everyone getting a chance.

(Co.): The back and forth movement of now I'm the

knower and you're the learner, and vice-versa.

Statement 5. (Cl. 2): That is the tradition, the

handing on. Of course, that was a new thing to me...the
livingness of tradition. Because way back in those
years of studying theology, the historical relationship
to the development of the authority of the Church is
what was emphasized. We place so much on this tradition.
The reformers were not really tuned into our traditions.
They did not accept it, they were rejecting the strength
of this tradition; the livingness of this tradition. So
when they broke, they broke that tradition. The breaks...
there is a discontinuity of the tradition.

Client #3

Statement 1. (Cl. 3): That's what I felt. Whatever

the issue was, I felt the freedom, first of all, of Dick,
to bring this to the fore. Many times the people are
afraid, but they were that far advanced in the workshop,
or whatever they were doing, to be able to confront
him (the teacher) with their situation and bring it right
there and clarify it in the nucleus of people. That's
the way I felt.

(Co.): The freedom that was expressed there was the

thing that caught you the most.

Statement 2. (Cl. 3): The freedom was the advance-

ment and also the supportive role. The man said he was
very angry but the silent role of the other three was
important. At least, that came through to me. I don't
know if I got the message or not, but that's what I got
from it.

(Co.): So it's kind of a listening experience,

listening on the part of the lecturer. You felt the non-
verbalizing was important, too.

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): Yes, because I feel many times

and, of course, this is my experience, people fail be-
cause they aren't empathetic with me. At least, I don't

110
 110

feel their empathy. They don't come through to me as a

very empathetic person. Many times a person can come up
to me and just by some little expression totally imbibe
what I have said and understand it. Many times people
verbalize, but they don't feel it. And many times they
don't say anything but, at least, I feel the empathy
very, very much. I felt there were people there who
were very empathetic in their silence. There was also
an angry response and a clarification from the person
himself. A freedom to bring to the fore whatever his
problem may have been.

(Co.): The persons were involved.

Statement 4. (Cl. 3): Many times we go to other

people rather than the right person.

(Co.): That was really a good point that you thought

out, that they were really confronting the person who was
causing their difficulty rather than going to an outsider
in that particular situation.

Statement 5. (Cl. 3): Yes, and saying, well, I don't

understand it, what's it all about, and forget it. Then
you are shutting them all off, completely, and they
wanted to learn.

(Co.): I think you said before, too, you personally

are very conscious of this very active role of just
listening on the part of people who sometimes don't ex-
press it, because you've experienced this yourself. Some-
times the person who actively responded was not really
feeling with you, but someone else later gave you the
feeling of being heard.

Statement 6. (Cl. 3): Many times, in my experience,

people say they understand, but they don't feel like I
do. Maybe they want to say something, they want to get
in there. Many times they want to give me advice rather
than listen. I think you have to know when to give ad-
vice, and when to enter into the wholeness of another.

(Co.): So you appreciated this because the peoples'

ideas got across, they really had a chance to be heard.-

Statement 7. (Cl. 3): Also, I might say that some-

times advice is a defense mechanism.

(Co.): And so you'd rather be heard, rather than be

advised.

Statement 8. (Cl. 3): If there is a problem, a real

problem, the advice would ordinarily come from having
 111

been listened to. Many times you solve your own prob-
lems by having someone listen to you. The very fact
that a person enters into me and is empathetic with me,
frees me and that is advice enough.

(Co.): Right.

Statement 9. (Cl. 3): And many times it is a prob-

lem they can't do anything about, anyway. I have to be
the reactionary within myself. I know by verbalizing
this gave it a new dignity for me. I also saw the dig-
nity and value of being a counselor...that you could
help someone else to humanize his own iiving, to place
order in his own life, to get a perspective again and
what a beautiful thing this was...to be able to do this.
It made me more enthusiastic about counseling. I saw
the value in it, not only for me, but how I could help
others.

(Co.): It could bring hope both ways.

Statement 10. (Cl. 3): First sense, not hope. Hope

doesn't somehow fit it, but a sense of dignity.

(Co.): A new sense of value of your emotional state

and also of your ability to be a counselor.

Statement 11. (Cl. 3): Yes, somehow I respect my-

self more after that talk than I did after the meeting
this morning. How you put that, I don't know. Value, I
have a better sense of my own value. I don't know, it
tickles me, it does.

(Co.): It's pleasing to see this?

Statement 12. (Cl. 3): Well, if there's anything I've

been told often enough, it's that I haven't a sense of my
own value. All of a sudden I was thinking, well, that
wasn't such a terribly undignified thing to do. I'm see-
ing a value in myself still having gone ahead and having
done it. But, actually, it was a very respectful thing
to myself to have done.

(Co.): There was a little embarrassment in what

happened this morning and now you see it as...

Statement 13. (Cl. 3): I see it as a dignified thing

to have done, which I didn't before. It gives me further
self value and it gives me a great desire to go out and do
the same thing for someone else.
 112

Client #4

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): I guess I identified mostly

with the counselor, not the lecturer himself. I was
impressed with his flexibility because he obviously had
set this up as an extra thing that he thought necessary.
It had its value in the sense that the whole point of
this workshop, I guess, was to really hear, to really
listen in on a counseling set-up. What impressed me the
most about it was his whole redemptive empathy toward
goals that the persons felt were not being heard. I ap-
preciated that the very most of the whole thing. I could
see Dick's hostility, and personal feelings of the whole
group that needed to be dealt with in depth later on...
but, for the most part, I was impressed with the lectur-
er, himself, his ability to really hear and be the object
of hostility and sccrn.

(Co.): His ability to stand apart from what was

really almost an attack on him, his procedure, and just
accept this and use it as a teaching procedure. At the
moment that they were to learn to listen, he would give
them an example of listening, is that right?

Statement 2. (Cl. 4): No, that isn't exactly what I

was feeling. I was mostly impressed with his redemptive
love, perhaps. It was the deep concern he was showing.
Real love, I thought.

(Co.): So you could actually see that in that tele-

vision.

Statement 3. (Cl. 4): Well, the main idea I got was.

that what a person really wants to accomplish in a
counseling session as a client is to be able to see the
whole picture in a clearer focus than when he started.
For example, he might see just the trees or the forest,
depending on which way he's hung up, but what's important
is to get an over-view of the whole thing for the client.
The way I heard it, it's very important that for the very
first time, the counselor does pick up what he says
clearly because the client is spilling out his guts, so
to speak, and he may be left at a point where he can be
either clearer, or muddier, or more confused. If he
does not sense that he is reflected back in a clear way,
it will not come across. That's what is so important in
the counseling session, the ability to pick it up. Other-
wise, spilling one's guts out can be a very horrifying ex-
perience.
 113

Sampling 3 - Friday

Client #1

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): I felt that what was said was

that the client came in confusion, and I like that sym-
bolic form, the forest from the trees, because I think
that's where we are most of the time. I also got from
him, that, unless I move to a pillar that I can branch
off from, there is going to be more confusion. In other
words, if the counselor cannot give me more help or see
where I am, then I'm going to be much more confused and
drawn back; rather than go forward to explore further in
what's going on. I guess I was so caught up in the Greek
words and what was happening prior, that I find it diffi-
cult to explain all his terminology, and I like the pic-
ture of moving forward from one stage to another, always
being clarified. I guess my anxiety, also, at this
point, is that, hopefully, somebody will understand so
they can pick me up and move me forward.

(Co.): You're a little in need of someone to get

you up on that pillar right now so you can get the over-
view-forward.

Statement 2. (Cl. 1): Because what I see is causing

the inability to have a close relationship with a number
of people is within me. How does - see, I can't even
verbalize it now - I know what I have to do is let it
hang loose and I see it as an utter impossibility. I
want to, I want to forget about it and let it be.
(Co.): But you're facing a situation which you want
to face honestly, and...

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): I guess I want to talk about

it now in the hope of getting away from it. I find that,
around the house, if I can talk about what's bothering
me, I can lose it then.

(Co.): You can just get it out of yourself and be-

come freed from it?

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): Yes.

(Co.): But you have this feeling that if you could

kind of relax and let things unfold naturally and then
things might work out, but there is this other feeling
of just wanting to somehow struggle it through and do
what you can.

12o
 114

Statement 5. (Cl. 1): I'm constantly being con-

fronted by it. There are people here who I know well
and with whom I don't feel easy. I block the minute I
see them and it's a constant confrontation to me and it's
maddening. I just have to let them alone, leave the
whole situation alone. Don't try to do anything about
it.

(Co.): You'd rather walk away from them.

Statement 6. (Cl. 1): Oh, no! I wouldn't walk away

from them.

(Co.): You want to face it.

Statement 7. (Cl. 1): I want to face it in myself.

I don't want to do anything external about it because I
think that's the mistake, to do anything extra about it.
Just let me be who I am and let them be who they are and
let the situation flow freely.

(Co.): But you feel the conflict within you?

Statement 8. (Cl. 1): I keep on being frustrated

that the situation remains where it is. But I keep it
where it is by my own attitude and I know this. It's
my own interior hangups that probably create it.

(Co.): Depends on that underbrush there, how lost

you are, how much you're going in a circle.

Statement 9. (Cl. 1): Right. If I could catch my-

self there at a rather initial stage and be able to help
myself out of it...just using a little setting. Now I
don't know whether that's valid or not, but this is what-
occurred to me, that one might help oneself that way.
He (the teacher) made the comment in his previous pre-
sentation at the beginning, somehow...something about
one could counsel oneself sometimes...take counsel with
yourself, and I thought, I wish I could do that some-
times because I was still at that stage of thinking. I
was a little bit embarrassed, you know, how far gone I
was. But I think perhaps, that is what came to me then,
rather freshly, because I no longer felt the need to do
it, to do it for myself. I had seen the other aspect as
respectful now and this came forward as that's the way
you really come to it, by yourself.

Client 1 sees the value of being understood as a

knower and freed to move ahead to further insights with the

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help of an active listener-learner.

Client #2

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): I have a very positive - I

have a, you might say a very - let's say - job satisfac-
tion. I'm pretty happy with what I'm doing. I'm with a
group of young priests who are just getting started.
And first of all, their own idea has been settling -
they're settling - and in their efforts to work they're
always trying something new and there's always a dissat-
isfaction. I have tried to be my own example, in - we
don't meet too often, and when we do meet and get to-
gether, then each one kind of exposes how he's doing and
how we can help each other, and my efforts, weak efforts,
they haven't been too strong, because of the difference
of age. I'm one of the older ones. Well, the difference
is they're one to five years and I'm twenty-two years,
and with the wrong age of experience. I don't like to
use the past, I try to use the present and so I'm feeling
that what I'm using is...I try to insist on their knowing
what they're doing because I see them trying things and
failing and then wanting to try something new. They
actually want to get Jost, as it were, in doing something
where there's no report; nobody can really say they're
succeeding or failing.

(Co.): You find that your job is very successful and

you seem to appreciate the group you're working with be-
cause they're kind of creative people and can take what's
there and always find another road to try. You appre-
ciate that because they seem to evolve from life as they
are and...do I hear you right? In this, you want to be
the same way, but on the other hand, you just don't want
to go on to the past, you want to join the same type of
cooperative efforts and grow in a creative way.

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): I would like to be able to

help them. I would want them more to come to me and
really seek or ask my opinion, or appreciate my opinion.
I. try to give them examply by really being happy with
what I'm doing and hoping that I might be able to be of
assistance to them; give them some kind of guidance.
I'm the old fogey, they don't come to me. They want to
do things in their own way. I don't like to see them
making the mistakes they're making. I think I could be
of help to them but I don't want to move in and try to
insist or try to be of influence. And at the same time,
I think I could be helpful to them.

(Co.): So you see who you are and the experience

that you have had could be a help to them. That maybe

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they aren't giving you a complete opportunity to be...

Statement 3. (Cl. 2): To be helpful to them. Yes.

(Co.): So you see that you could give a lot more...

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): Yes, to them. But they don't

turn to you...I think only because I mention the genera-
tion gap that does exist...I might be happy but they
don't want to do what I'm doing. There's one thing, be-
cause they think they have a special calling to a certain
class of people in a certain way and I'm doing something
a little more professional and so on, and I...we don't
fall into the same category where we're doing the same
work.

(Co.): You think you would be happier if they would

come to you more?

Statement 5. (Cl. 2): Yes, I think I could be of

help to them...but when we get together this satisfaction
does come out of them. I'm sitting back and ready to be
of help if they want to look for it.

Client #3

Statement 1. (Cl. 3): But something else I think

that's very important, and I don't know if I can verbal-
ize it correctly, but I'd like this community aspect of
learning...that we're not in his historical background
that he gave us of schooling. That it's for everyone,
and that we have to enter into this whole situation
completely, openly, and empty ourselves almost, to re-
ceive what's there and that we don't play the game of
leapfrog. Because when he brought that out I thought of
situations in which people in a Bible Study Group don't
listen to what's being said because they want to give
what they have to say. So people do go away stimulated,
but I wonder if that's right, so this is the big question
that rose in my mind.

(Co.): The...first of all, you did appreciate this

bit with Jack. You appreciated the fact that he used it
as a learning situation. Also, you were much drawn to
this community aspect, particularly as you could fit into
your own situation even with this Bible Study Group that
means so much to you. Sometimes people are so anxious to
give, they don't learn.

Statement 2. (Cl. 3): And this is the frustration

that I had with one particular group. In reflecting on
 117

this, we do have to grow, and the only way that we can

grow, maybe, is by the game of leapfrog. By stimulating
until people can know that they are not listening. That
they're just saying things to be heard because they have
a reflection that's important to give, but that's not
really adult learning. That is what really came through
to me this afternoon; its not really a learning situa-
tion, it's a stimulation game.

(Co.): That people may sometimes need this in order

to feel recognized and accepted in the first place, they
may first have to be allowed to leapfrog. And then,
somehow, they kind of get a feeling of recognition...may-
be they will be able to learn.

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): And he brought through force-

fully to me the very fact that I'm not hurt anyway, so
I'm not worth anything. In other words, because what I
have to say, because people don't listen if- not import-
ant, so I might as well shut up, instead of accepting
the openness. The community should help me. In other
words, be open and grow.

(Co.): If I'm not listened to, if I'm not recog-

nized, I sense the lack of worth, and community properly
should give me this input.

Statement 4. (Cl. 3): And I think this had been the

case in the past...what mcst of us have come out of, and
that's why in any organization, particularly...they're
running the whole thing, they've got the whole show cut
and dried anyway. Why should what I have to say be im-
portant. I think many people feel this way and this is
very emphatic this afternoon what it brought out to me.
It brought out the level, the difference between just
saying what I've got to say for a learning situation.

(Co.): It hit you very close because of all these

group situations you know of in parish life where this
does happen, that people don't turn off because of

Statement 5. (Cl. 3): That's right, and this is not

adult education. Sometimes we're terming, well...adult
education, this is a bible study group, or a prayer
group, or how many forms does it have? This is actually,
well, maybe we are. In so' e sense, maybe it's one step,
maybe it's a baby step toward a greater thing. But if I
am aware of this, conscious of this, it's my duty then
to bring it out a little bit further.

(Co.): The purpose they really came you have

really seen this as something that's a good learning sit-
uation for you, if you can grasp it to help others.

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Client 3 experiences a high degree of symbolization

around his own personal teaching experience and demonstrates

some movement towarC. internalization.

Client #4

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): Thinking back over it, what

hit me the most was the fact that we're dealing with
adults and it's a whole new model of learning. It's not
like a child type of model where the child really re-
sponds to a teacher in grasping it, it's kind of judged
against how the rest of the class does. It's the idea
that each adult in a community of learners, and of
teachers, some have seeds or a seed that the rest does
not have. So you have a whole composite of individuals,
or persons, that are both teachers and clients in a
learning situation. It is a very rich thing on the one
hand because there's such a variety of seeds in that
whole community of people. However, we can get hung-up
by the richness of others' seed and close them off and
lose the variety of richness in a community.

(Co.): In this adult association that each has some-

thing to contribute, the process is more of an awareness
of the contribution of trying to grasp what each one has
to give. That is the growth process.

Statement 2. (Cl. 4): And if we don't feel comfort-

able in understanding the idea, that there are all the
different kinds of richness in the group, we can close
ourselves off, or feel threatened by another's richness:*
because I don't have it. Or, it can be, too, that some-
body else in the group has a richness to a greater de-
gree than I do and I can be threatened by it because I'm
not going to emit that that guy knows more than I do.
So, in a sense, we would all feel much more comfortable
if each person was completely enriched in just one par-
ticular area.

(Co.): You find that threatening to the community?

Statement 3. (Cl. 4): No, I'm not saying that I do.

I just use that as an example of what I said, that some-
one who might have the same seed but to a better degree,
maybe has grown more, can be a threat to someone who has
it to a lesser degree...is not as strong in that same
thing.

(Co.): Could be an example in the languages or

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someone who knew, something could be threatened by one

who knew more.

Statement 4. (Cl. 4): Which is another example

what I was just pointing out...how we can close ourselves
off in a death trap image...not be completely open to the
community of a learning process...a whole community of
counseling-learning. I think that's just how it all hit
me afterwards. Just what he was getting at. I found it
kind of rambling at times. But looking back over it now,
I can see. That's how I put it together, anyway. He's
kind of asking us to have the understanding hearts, every
seed in the whole group, every person in the whole group.

(Co.): So you, in a community, would not feel

threatened by a superior person, a more prepared person.

Statement 5. (Cl. 4): That's right, and what I felt

he was asking us, was to just feel comfortable with the
role, as far as I know, and not be threatened by what we
don't know. There are other examples, too, that he gave
that I felt were very good. The example of not really
hearing. Jack didn't really completely capture what he
was saying but rather he took the seed that was sown and
added his own to it, in a sense. He did hear, but he
gave it back in a way that wasn't exactly the way he
meant it, which, I thought again, was another example of
what we might feel in a community counseling-learning.
It's not really appreciating the seed for what it is -
we're trying to remake it.

(Co.): But there was a certain amount of truth in

that word regression that you used, so he couldn't really
throw it away; that was his contribution.

Statement 6. (Cl. 4): Yes, that was the idea. Again,

just not a real openness. A complete openness to the
seeds that are sown.

Summary - Group 3

If we contrast Client 2's first statement in Samp-

ling 1 with his first statement in Sampling 3, we see an al-

most complete reversal from negative to positive attitude.

While this transition is not quite so sharp for the other

clients in Group 3, there is evidence of moving toward

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receptivity of the cognitive presentation of the teacher-

knower.

Summary of the Three Groups

In all three groups, we saw certain similarities.

1. Resistance or confusion in the opening state-

ments of Sampling 1.

2. An attempt to be open to the counseling-learning

inseminational model, sometimes accompanied by pain, and not

always successful.

3. Greater acceptance in Sampling 3 of the client-

learners' role as learners, and a consequent movement toward

internalization of the cognitive presentation of the teacher-

knower.

4. High level of particularization in the beginning.

According to our hypothesis, this movement is facilitated

through the understanding responses of the counselors in the

small groups. Because the client-learners are allowed to

express themselves either cognitively or affectively (usually

more centrally affectively in the beginning) they are gradual-

ly free from their threat either of new knowledge or the

learning circumstances themselves, such as, the person of the

teacher-knower or their own group.

We see also a growth toward a community learning

situation in each group. Instead of questioning, doubting,

and negation, there was acceptance and understanding, with

its consequent encouragement for the client-learner's

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struggle to unfold his unique understanding of the cognitive

presentation of the teacher-knower.

1 96
 Appendix B

TORONTO INSTITUTE

In this group we will be using two samplings only,

on Monday and Friday, in contrast to the Sinsinawa group

where we selected three. This is designed to show a broader

contrast between the initial and the final learning exper-

ience of one full week.

Group #1

Sampling 1 - Monday

The presentation to which the clients are responding

in the Monday reactions is the viewing of a film in which

the knower has become the group counselor because the

learners are blocked by a previous lecture, that he had giv-

en.

Client #1

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): He (the counselor) said we

are going to be discussing with the group a particular
problem, but he particularly used the words "a hang-up,"
that this one person has in the group. I felt immedi-
ately that he was approaching the whole situation with
a definite view in mind already...that this person has
a hang-up and that's sort of a pejorative thing...that
the person doesn't agree with what he's saying and
therefore...

(Co.): You picked up that he had his mind set on a

bias, before he even invited the group in to sit down
and talk about their "hang-up."

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Statement 2. (Cl. 1): I don't know if it was a

bias. I felt it was a bias certainly...that he was the
master, he was right, that there was someone objecting
to what he had said...and therefore, this person had a
"hang-up." But during the interaction between the
people...it was mainly between the people...the people
seemed to be saying everything and the counselor just
seemed to be repeating what they were saying. But I can
see the value in that it gets across to the person -
that there is someone here who is listening to what I
have to say. But at the same time, I felt, if I was
sitting down with somebody and I was being counseled and
all they did was repeat what I said, I would feel terri-
bly insulted because I would think that was very child-
ish. I presume that he was understanding...that he's
going to respond there to the need I was expressing, and
not just repeating.

In the client's statement we see a fairly typical

observer reaction. What actually went on between the coun-

selor and the group and how they felt about it, was quite

different from the client's somewhat uninvolved interpreta-

tion of it.

(Co.): You find him accepting, but in parrot-like

fashion. Too condescending.

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): Yes, very condescending. But

no one in the group seemed to feel that. They all
seemed to work out their problems. Some expressed anger,
but, by the end of the film, this all seemed to have
dissipated just because he had listened and repeated
back. Boy, how did he do it? How did he bring these
people to this resolution so easily without saying any-
thing?

It is difficult for the client to accept that what

he "observed" is not what actually happened. Often, the

adult learner will enter the learning situation with a pre-

conceived notion of how things should "turn out." This can

prevent internalized learning.

13t)
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(Co.): Do you think that the individual could think

of his own problem by facing it, having someone else
express it?

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): I can't think of anything

else right now.

(Co.): Did I hear you say you were not aware of

what the problem was and what the "hang-up" was? Did
you have that feeling that as soon as the counselor was
introducing the thing, that it would have been great had
you been let in on what the scene was the night before
which caused the poor man to feel the way he did? And
that everybody else could empathize with him. Did you
have that feeling?

Statement 5. (Cl. 1): Yes, I had that feeling that

I couldn't understand the man's reaction because I
didn't know what had transpired. But at the same time
I felt with him; I really empathized with the person
that was against the counselor, basically, because
felt he was speaking on a very human emotional level.
don't know if he was even pitting it in a situation of
counselor-client. He was coming out on a very personal
level.

(Co.): He was really begging the lecturer to see it

his way and to assure him that his feelings, which
weren't acceptable to him were nonetheless acceptable
and could be understood. Is that what you just said?

Statement 6. (Cl. 1): Yes, somewhat. I think he

was just looking for recognition, that he had feeling...
that he wasn't just a puppet in a game.

The client appears to be projecting his own feelings

as an observer onto the person in the real experience of

trying to work through his blocking with the lecturer. If

the learner is to really understand, and therefore learn, he

must enter as fully as possible into the experiental world

of the one he is trying to understand.

Client #2

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): I seem to have some kind of

difficulty deciding on just exactly my reaction to the

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whole thing. I did really sympathize with the fellow

who had the problem, and I was really fighting a little
bit against the counselor because I felt similar to what
the man. had said...that it was just a reiteration of
what the fellow was expressing. Yet, at the same time,
I felt some good must be coming through. I don't think
the counselor was just sitting there saying all those
things for no particular reason. I felt he was making
an effort to do something for this young man, whoever
he was.

Client 2 is struggling to be open to what went on,

although he is still holding back from a full "faith" com-

mitment to the experience. This is a form of methodic doubt

that can often defeat adult learning.

(Co.): You saw the counselor trying to help but you

were surprised it was so little. Almost being just a
parroting back mechanically of what had been said.

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): Almost that type of thing,

yes. And I had a little opposition within myself to the
counselor because of this.

(Co.): You kept waiting for him to do more.

Statement 3. (Cl. 2): I wanted him to be warmer

towards that fellow who was apparently in agony. This,
I think mostly, was on the level of feeling more than
anything else, as far as I was concerned.

Client 2 here takes the side of the client in the

group against the lecturer, now acting as group counselor.

This may be a form of closure that, again, can prevent adult

learning.

(Co.): You felt he didn't understand the other man?

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): Yes, I sympathized very, very

much with him. But I would have liked to have known
just exactly what his problem was, what he was objecting
to. As you had mentioned, what had happened in the lec-
ture ... I would have liked to have known that. But what-

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ever it was, I felt it had cut him very deeply. And I

felt then, that he had gone around looking for support
from other people. I don't know, other than that, what
more I can say, except to say I felt sympathy for him
and an opposition to the lecturer. And yet, I felt the
lecturer was trying to do something profitable in a
different way from what I would have liked to have seen.

As with Client 1, we note here Client 2's preconcep-

tion of how it "should" have been.

(Co.): Did you think that two of the people in the

film were sympathizing with one member of their group?

Statement 5. (Cl. 2): I had a very uncomfortable

feeling with them. I felt they were trying to tell the
counselor, "Well, really, you're not too bad. We don't
want to hurt you too much because after all you are the
one giving this course." I felt very, very strongly on
that.

(Co.): You felt they were trying to counsel and

heal themselves.

Statement 6. (Cl. 2): You see, this came through

very powerfully to me and I really reacted strongly to
that. I disliked them intensely for the way they did
it. If he was wrong, he was wrong. Never mind saying,
"Well, you're really all right." I felt quite strongly
about that part of it.

(Co.): You really felt the hurt with that guy who .

was struggling with his feelings. That he had really

been sliced up in the previous lecture and you never
quite figured out what the slicing process consisted of,
but felt most strongly for his pain.

Statement 7. (Cl. 2): Yes, I did. I sympathized

with him very, very much because I felt there was some-
thing nagging at him and it had not yet been resolved
and there didn't seem to be any way of it's being re-
solved in that particular situation.

Because adult learning can often be a threat to the

learner, he can often be unwittingly hurt by the knower.

This seems to be what happened and the client in the group

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is trying to work through his hurt. Here Client 2 has diffi-

culty seeing the group client in his struggle. He expects

the counselor to relieve him of his pain.

(Co.): Did he not express, at the end, that he felt

it was resolved?

Statement 8. (Cl. 2): He did say he felt better

about it. So I just wondered if looking at the thing
made him feel better. I don't know.

Client #3

Statement 1. (Cl. 3): It's very difficult to see a

film like that and to pass judgment on who is in the
right and who is in the wrong. You don't know what took
place, or if any injustice occurred. As the counselor
introduced it..."now let's just see what happens here...
something happened last night, and I'll make an intel-
lectual reflection at the end of it if necessary, but if
not necessary, I won't." We were still left in a great
big darkness. What happened, who did it, who said what,
and so I was kind of tuned off, eh...the whole present-
ation, right from the very beginning. Now the client
came on and I must admit I wasn't on his side at all
There were too many I's, me's, myself...and he was really
hung up - pardon the expression - on himself and he was
trying to justify himself in front of his other four
group members and that again really turned me off. I
was instinctively on the lecturer's side from that point
on.

Client 3, in contrast to Client 1 and 2, takes the

side of the lecturer. However, this, too, can equally block

out learning since it is also a form of closure.

(Co.): You were really uncomfortable because you

couldn't figure out who it was who had precipitated the
whole thing.

Statement 2. (Cl. 3): What happened...who said

what...whether the person even had a point here...will-
ing to talk to lecturer.

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(Co.): You found him very full of himself.

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): Absolutely. Very much.

(Co.): Are you saying then that you actually didn't

have too much sympathy for him at all.

Statement 4. (Cl. 3): I have to say that, yes. In

not knowing what happened. I think i' would be a pretty
hard thing...like for the lecturer to go around from
place to place, putting on these courses and then there
may be somebody who is there for the very first time
and he publicly challenges him...uh, you know? And
there may be a point, but you don't know what it was.
Maybe that guy was right. Maybe, I'm misjudging that
client completely. Maybe the counselor was very cool
toward him, and violated all the rules to his own teach-
ing...publicly denouncing that guy...put him in his place
or something. This is what was so maddening to me. We
didn't know what happened, nobody told us...and here you
are...you try to sympathize with the counselor and as it
went on I was more and more taking his part.

It is often thought that to understand another per-

son, it is necessary to know something of his background.

This seems to be the point around which Client 3 is confused.

Previous knowledge of a person can even hinder effective

understanding since it can create bias.

(Co.): You're still making judgments about what's

happening, without knowing the background?

Statement 5. (Cl. 3): I did, I'm sorry, I did.

That's why I liked the way the one person wasn't too
reticent to uphold the guy...going back to their own
ideas. And the same with the other...he kept saying
things like, "How in my own mind I...as long as I get
this unhappy and so on. Kind of lost...I could have
empathized with the client.

(Co.): Did you feel then that each one was more or
less out for himself?

Statement 6. (Cl. 3): I think they felt uneasy.

They didn't come right out like you said, they didn't
come right out and condemn the lecturer on the stand he
had taken.
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(Co.): They came there to say something, to have

something out, and to really have it out and get the air
cleared. And then you thought they all pulled back and
never said what was really wrong, what was really bug-
ging them and they were never honest, never confront-
ing, but very nice and very innocuous.

Statement 8. (Cl. 3): The counselor definitely

wasn't looking for a fight. He won that part and I was
a little disappointed then too. He just kept saying
words over and over again. Saying, "Well, that's how
you feel and I can understand." And...but he wasn't
trying to draw out either way. That was the really
crucial point of the whole discussion.

(Co.): You felt that he was very gentle and under-

standing with these people?

Statement 9. (Cl. 3): That's right, and at the end

they all admitted they all felt better now or something,
whatever his solution to the problem was.

(Co.): You felt his reaction was lacking somehow?

Statement 10. (Cl. 3): Yeh, meanwhile not knowing

what happened...that was the maddening part of the whole
thing.

Client #4

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): I found a common area of

frustration, with all of you, in two areas. One was the
counselor's parroting and not adding any effect at all.
It surprised me and it bored me and I started to go to
sleep after awhile...partly to get away from a frustra-
tion and partly after a brisk walk. The other frustra-
tion was in not knowing what the original problem was.
Like you, I was trying to get back into what was going
on here. Something went wrong for four days so the
adult learning process was not able to take place. I
gathered then that Dan...who was the fellow...was angry
because some situations had taken place where he, and
possibly some others, too, had participated in some sort
of a discussion, or a demonstration, without knowing
what the counselor was looking for. And then, when the
counselor later explained what was going on, they felt
they had been misused or manipulated...or at any rate...
left naked with their defenses down in knowing what had
taken place. Kind of a two-fold frustration.

13k)
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Client 4, in referring to his "other" frustration,

exhibits a tendency to be comfortable only when one is able

to identify a "problem." However, as stated in regard to

Client 2 before, the knower, because of an inherent threat

in learning, may not ever know that "problem" he caused the

learner,

(Co.): Were you sympathizing with him and the rest

of the group?

Statement 2. (Cl. 4): I'm not sympathizing with

anybody. I want to take them both and knock their heads
together znd really give the counselor a kick for not
throwing a little more affect in there and helping this
guy more with his anger...or with teaching something. I
know he was there to counsel but I thought he owed some
kind of an explanation as to what was going on...helL
the guy to understand it a little bit and see he wasn't
being used. And the other guy, I wish he had gotten
really mad at the counselor and said exactly what was
bothering him.

Client 4 is having difficulty accepting the lecturer-

counselor in allowing the group to work through their strug-

gle. But unless they are allowed to do so, the internalizing

of the lecturer's presentation is not likely to occur.

(Co.): So you were feeling a real frustration with

this whole film?

Statement 3. (Cl. 4): Yeh, I got mad and I think I

started going to sleep. Because I wasn't making sense
out of either. They weren't doing it the way I wanted
them to do it. (Laughter).

(Co.): You got rid of your frustration by dozing.

It just turned you off to that extent.

Statement 4. (Cl. 4): I think so. I kind of hate

to admit that, but I do have an excuse. I did go on a
very hard walk for half an hour and I came back tired.
But I was interested enough at watching this master, the
counselor, work...so that I was really going to stay.

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awake for that...but the feeling of dozing came from

the frustration.

Statement 5. (Cl. 4): That's something I've learned

because I was in that kind of situation...that is teach-
ing me that...when I do tend to do it during a counsel-
ing session, then there must be something going on in me
so I'm copping out.

(Co.): Then this frustration could barrier you up

to the whole situation. You couldn't relate to the sit-
uation.

Summary

Group 1 shared some _ommon reactions to this learn-

ing experience, among which were frustration, a need to know

the "problem," and a tendency to preconceptions of what

"should" have been. These are not uncommon reactions in an

initial adult learning situation. But since they are forms
of resistance, they can prevent internalized learning. This

is why the counselors simply tried to understand and accept

their resistance. They could then be more open to it them-

selves.

Sampling 2 - Friday

In the following the group is responding to the

lecturer's final presentation.

Client #1

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): Well, like every one else, I

was tremendously impressed by his presentation for many
different things.

'mile Client l's enthusiastic remark in itself is not

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indicative of internalized learning, it does show a greater

openness in contrast to his resistance on Monday.

(Co.): So you were deeply moved by the presenta-

tion.

Statement 2. (Cl. 1): I liked the way he linked

everything together.

(Co.): Almost that it was an exciting thing that

he made, the creativity in making the connection between
the two.

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): I admired his handling of it.

I was perhaps a little envious or jealous of him. That
I didn't have the ability to do that.

(Co.): So you felt you wished you could have done

that?

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): Yes, it was a negative feel-

ing, but it was just a passing feeling. A more positive
feeling of admiration came through...

We see something of mimesis here, i.e., the learner

trying to become like the knower in whatever the knower rep-

resents.

(Co.): Even though you have never thought of it

yourself, it opens up new possibilities of what you
might do.

Statement 5. (Cl. 1): I certainly admired it and it

struck home for me to try to he a little more observant
and to link it up with many other areas of learning.

(Co.): When you are at your work, you might do

something of what he did.

Statement 6. (Cl. 1): Yes, but not only that, I

felt a bit guilty in doing that. In my reading, I say,
"Well, here's something I can tell someone else." Why
don't I apply these to myself when I have these agonizing
decisions to make? Instead of looking for things to
others, why not tell myself in my own special life? I
have to be able to know it myself before I can communi-
cate it with others.

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Client l's awareness seems to be rather startling to

himself. So long as he can channel it constructively, rather

than be overcome by guilt, he is in a favorable situation to

learn.

Client #2

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): I guess I would like to ad-

dress myself to the presentation itself more than the
introduction, because I found the introduction boring,
in a sense. But once he got into the presentation it-
self, I felt that I could really enter in, that I felt
the things he was saying.

(Co.): So you felt very involved in the things he

was saying?

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): Very, very much. In thiLgs

like this, I could end up crying at the end of the ses-
sion.

(Co.): So you felt very emotionally involved.

Statement 3. (Cl. 2): Oh yeah, a lot.

(Co.): So you felt a guilt, then, that you could

identify with?

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): Not so much the guilt.

(Co.): It wasn't real-ly clear then, in the appli-

cation.

Statement 5. (Cl. 2): Right. Hearing him talk was

like sitting back and hearing the Sound of Music and I
felt when I saw it for the second time a few months ago,
it was fantastic. I felt I was right there. And the
sort of feelings you felt when Mr. Van Trapp started
singing after so many years. You could really feel a
part of this. Perhaps this is what determines a good
presentation from a bad one.

(Co.): So you felt you were a part in other situa-

tions.

Statement 6. (Cl. 2): Right. I felt very much a

part of that.

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Client #3

Statement 1. (Cl. 3): I think I reacted positively

to the knower's presentation, although I had certain
questions. I had a question in a very practical way for
how one gets through to the people. People are easily
distracted.

Client 3 has some reservations, although they seem

to be not so much related to the content of the presentation

as to his own application of the content.

(Co.): So you felt in theory that it is beautiful.

But you doubt if it will work in our present set-up.

Statement 2. (Cl. 3): I also wonder what he meant

before he began. I wasn't sure whether he was going to
assume the role of teacher or counselor; or how could
he assume the role of counselor when he was the only
person.

(Co.): So these things were floating around in your

mind, but you didn't know just how he would do it.

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): Yes, I think I was question-

ing more than doubting.

(Co.): You were a little puzzled.

Statement 4. (Cl. 3): Right. And then, I found

when he actually got into the presentation, there cer-
tainly was a very positive approach...a meditative thing
in that sense, of putting yourself into the composition
there...that he sort of drew the picture.

(Co.): You felt good about this because it was

something you liked doing, and that you had done before.

Statement 5. (Cl. 3): I could really see the pic-

ture.

(Co.): So you felt you were really in it.

Statement 6. (Cl. 3): Yes, so I really felt a part

of that and also his application of this.

(Co.): You liked the connection he made with modern

living. You could identify with this some one you know.
 135

It's not just an imaginary situation?

Statement 9. (Cl. 3): Right, I could.

(Co.): You said to yourself, "How beautifully true

that is!"

Statement 10. (Cl. 3): Exactly.

Client #4

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): The fact that I am #4 kind of

diffuses the feelings that I had. Sort of the calm af-
ter the storm.

(Co.): So you feel anything you say would be repi-

titious?

Statement 2. (Cl. 4): No, but I don't feel as

taken up as I did, but I still feel good.

(Co.): So for you to be in performance, to be your

best, you would have to be first.

Statement 3. (Cl. 4): Well, in that sense, if you

look upon it as a performance.

The counselor's somewhat clumsy responses tend to

throw Client 4 off slightly.

(Co.): No, but for you to be emoted.

Statement 4. (Cl. 4): But I would have been more

cognitive at that time. I wondered a little bit when
he was giving this conversation, hoL people who didn't
know the background...actually then people taking the
role of the Knower...I just felt for a lot of people
this would have been something entirely new.

(Co.): So a lot of people would be lost.

Statement 5. (Cl. 4): Not necessarily lost, but

that they would find something new and possible strange.
That would be the thing I felt, but as he continued on,
I began to say, "This is the sort of thing that is ter-
rific."

(Co.): Right, I like your reflection, there.

 136

Summary - Group 1

At the end of the final presentation, Group #1

shares a common and positive feeling toward the presenta-

tion. We saw an opposite negative reaction after the Monday

session. While there are still some lingering questions at

the end of the final lecture, one senses a greater openness

than in the earlier reactions.

Group #2

Sampling 1 - Monday

The following reactions of Group #2 are to the same

presentation as Group #1 on Monday.

Client fil

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): While listening to the tele-

vision program, I was waiting to see why this man was
so upset at about what the counselor had said. I really
didn't discover what was said that had gotten him so up-
set. Seemingly, he misunderstood the counselor. Others
in the group agreed that he had reason to be up it arms.
Actually, while listening to the whole thing, it didn't
come to me what the man had said that got him so upset.

(Co.): You felt a lot of frustration in what was

happening. There was nothing definite in what you were
picking up. You felt frustration is not getting any-
thing definite.

Statement 2. (Cl. 1): No, I must say, I was frus-

trated in the fact that I know the program was going to
last fifteen minutes. Time was running out and still I
didn't discover why the group was so upset with the
counselor.

As we saw with Group #1, this client of Group #2 is

experiencing the same frustration in not being able to iden-

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 137

tify the "problem" that the group of clients in the TV pro-

gram were struggling with.

(Co.): So you seem to be saying that you're sort of

hung up about what it was exactly that they were com-
plaining about. You were waiting for it to be brought
out and it actually never came about. And to this mo-
ment you don't know what it really was that they were
objecting to. And this seems to cause a great deal of
puzzlement to you. So you're still sort of waiting to
find out what it was that happened.

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): In listening to the other

people speak, it didn't come through to me what they
were objecting to. True enough, the counselor listened
to them and he didn't try to clarify anything. When the
whole thing was over, I wasn't any the wiser.

(Co.): So you're saying that, during the discussion,

the counselor was there listening and understanding
them but the answer you were looking for didn't seem to
come out.

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): Yes. I was frustrated in not

grasping what they were "hung up" on. The counselor was
trying to understand them, that certainly came through
to me. He certainly wasn't trying to make them more
hostile.

In the previous two statements of Client 1, we see

something of the observer attitude that we saw in Group #1.

It seems that as long as he needs a "problem" to hold on to,

he cannot truly understand the inner world of the clients.

(Co.): You felt that your counselors here had

understood you now bu-", you still felt frustrated not
knowing what had gone on in the television program.

Client #2

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): Well, I'm a little in the

air about what I'm going to say. I could either pos-
itively or negatively react to it. My feelings are
mixed at this time. It's always easier to go negative.
 138

(Co.): It's a little difficult for you to make a

decision at this time.

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): Right. I wasn't too sure

which would be helpful to me in operation, so let's say
I feel frustrated on occasion. We do come from a desire
to work with a problem and come up with a solution. I
feel perhaps it's part of a plan that they don't want
us to come up with a solution. And one way to do it is
to frustrate us a little bit and you learn from your ex-
periences with frustration. You have to get to a certain
stage to say there isn't a certain solution.

When Client 2 says, "I feel perhaps it's part of a

plan...," it's as though he suspects some kind of manipula-

tion. While there is always the possibility of trickery in

any human interaction, unless some risk is taken in the

learning situation, there will be some lack of openness to-

ward the learning.

(Co.): You find yourself running up against brick

walls. At one time, you found yourself frustrated and
now you just accept it.

Statement 3. (Cl. 2): Yes! I'm not sure whether

this is because I wouldn't mind being a nice guy and
therefore I would accept that. Or that I can't learn
this new process that well so I won't let it frustrate
me too much. It's a matter of how you want to judge
yourself. That's how I feel at this stage. I wrote
down some questions last night. I happened to read one
of the counselor's articles and it answered one of my
questions. I have a few more to go.

Client 2 has not yet made a total commitment.

(Co.): So you find some answers and the brick walls

are beginning to move.

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): Yes! I suspect I'm looking

for more information. That's the type of mentality I
have. I somehow feel that somewhere out there in space
there is something that will set the whole process right
in my mind.

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Here we see that, although Client 2's commitment is

not yet total, he is hopeful that things will become clear-

er.

(Co.): Being out there in space is a state you

don't like yourself in.

Statement 5. (Cl. 2): Yes! A lot of people con-

sider perhaps my life has been to live with secure in-
formation. If I have the right information, I can do
the right thing for them.

(Co.): You do seem to have an eagerness for right

information. Almost an urgency to get information which
would help others.

Statement 6. (Cl. 2): People used to say I had a

computer type mind. I used to nut things off and be
able to recall them and had intense memory. It was all
part of my ego-building process, I suspect. But I real-
ly live on this type of operation.

While Client 2 sees himself as somewhat unique in

his need for certainty, he is exhibiting a not unusual adult

reaction. By definition, one is insecure in a learning pro-

cess; if he were secure, he would already know.

(Co.): And with this computer mind, you find your-

self with great reason to be proud.

Statement 7. (Cl. 2): Recognizing at the same time,

this did defeat some emotional aspects of my life. I
wasn't always able to balance the two as well as I
would've liked too. And if you deal with lots of people
you can't get emotional with all of them. That's the
excuse I always had. Generally, I would say I feel good
about the whole thing but I'm frustrated with a few
things and I do anticipate that many answers will come
as best they can.

(Co.): And you feel much more relieved.

Statement 9. (Cl. 2): I still, in the back of my

mind, will in the next few days figure out...is there
such a thing as a poor student or just a poor teacher.

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While still ambiguous in his reaction, Client 2

wishes to hold out for some hope that things will clarify.

Client #3

Statement 1. (Cl. 3): I think that I'm generally

happy. And I've felt this way for a couple of months.

We will see that throughout Client 3's statements,

there is no direct reaction to the presentation itself.

The counselor responds to him on the level of his comments.

(Co.): You feel happy and you've felt that way for
a couple of months.

Statement 2. (Cl. 3): And its because of a combina-

tion of things. Like my job...I'm a director of reli-
gious education. And I feel I have it very good. I
look at friends in similar situations. They seem to
have so many difficulties and problems.

(Co.):
This happiness stems from all types of
things. One of them that you can put your finger on is
your job because it is going good.

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): It seems like everything is

always positive. Some guys have difficulties with the
staff, etc. I don't deserve all this goodness. Things
seem to be too good. Sometimes I wonder how can it be.
Good things happening in the job, time after time.

(Co.): This good thing that is happening, keeps

flowing. It just keeps moving along.

Statement 4. (C. 3): And it is really kinda neat.

I enjoy getting up in the morning and going to work.
I'm learning to divorce myself from the job which a year
ago I was not able to do. Now I'm able to take time out
for myself.

(Co.): Before, you were so involved with the job,

you couldn't afford to disjoint yourself. Now you can
put the job aside and be something else.

Statement 5. (Cl. 3): I'm thinking more about my-

self. I guess part of my training is to deal with

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 141

other people. But it's a good feeling to know I'm im-

portant, too. And I've been trying to tell myself that
if I don't take time for myself I wouldn't be good for
anyone else.

`Co.): In the past it's always been exist for

other. But now you're saying - Hey! I've gotta be
something for me, too.

Statement 6. (Cl. 3): And I really feel good about

being able to bring this about...this divorce from my
work.

(Co.): You can control the situation. Where maybe

before you couldn't.

Statement 7. (Cl. 3): I think that's right. Being

able to be in control. So that the job doesn't become
my whole life even though I do enjoy it. Sometimes I
wonder why I deserve to be this happy.

(Co.): How can I have all this?

Statement 8. (Cl. 3): I just wonder some days.

You might get down on the little things that happen and
I think, well, maybe I ought to get out of this place.
But then I look around and think I wouldn't be happy
anywhere else for right now. But when I get depressed,
I think what I can do and then I realize, no, this is
where I'm happy.

Client 3 is generally positive. One might propose

two reasons why he did not directly address himself to the

learning situation: Either it was too threatening and he

could not face it, or, he had internalized it to the point

where his statements represents a creative reaction to it.

If the latter is true, then this would indicate an almost

ideal type of learning.

Client #4

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): I was walking outside the

other day when someone stopped me and said, "Isn't it a
lovely day?" Pnd I replied, "Yes, it's great." It was
the kinda day that a few weeks ago you would think would

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never come. After a couple of days were successfully

nice, I was wondering how long this would continue..

As with Client 3, Client 4 also ignores a direct

reference to the material of the learning situation. In-

stead, he talks about himself.

(Co.):
You're using weather conditions rather sym-
bolically of your deeper feelings.

Statement 2. (Cl. 4): Yes. The deeper feeling

things. In my life there are many continuous days of
pain, mental and physical anguish. Topped off every
once in a while with a glimmer of sunshine.

Perhaps because of his "mental and physical anguish,"

Client 4 was unable to enter into the learning. What he

seems to need more immediately is affective counseling be-
fore learning can take place.

(Co.): Every once in a while there is a break in

your continuous struggle, your continuous suffering.

Statement 3. (Cl. 4): There were three days of no

rain. The weather is a sort of hopeful thing. Like
with the weather there will be more than one day of joy,'
hope or happiness in relation to the length of pain. So
I wonder, when is it going to be real for me?
(Co.): It's your personal experience of the discon-
tinuity between pain and brighter spots.

Statement 4. (Cl. 4): I'm a little distracted about

the word, "discontinuity."

(Co.): Variety!

Statement 5. (Cl. 4): I feel like you missed what

I said.

(Co.): Ignore what I said before.

Statement 6. (Cl. 4): I guess I'm getting a little

irritated because you're saying ignore this and that and

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go back. And that's building up anger because I'm feel-

ing a struggle to say what I have to say. I'm looking
for times when there will be less amount of pain contin-
uously present. When in my existence am I ever gonna
have a balance of not ninety percent pain and ten per-
cent of the other. When is it ever going to start even-
ing out?

The inadequate counselor responses throw Client 4

off somewhat. Perhaps the counselor's poor responses were

due to his panic at the strong affect of the client. How-

ever, unless the learner is understood at this deep level of

affect, it will be difficult for him to move into the learn-

ing experience.

Sampling 2 - Friday

Client #1

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): Of all the material that the

lecturer gave us this afternoon, what really hit mr the
most is the matter of authority. This is because I'm
exercising authority and we are studying it in our
structure.

In this opening statement of Client 1 on Friday, we

see none of the resistance of Monday. He is somewhat matter-
of-factly, but seriously relating to the lecturer's present-
ation.

(Co.): You mean it opened up new avenues for you?

Statement 2. (Cl. 1): Yes. Not exactly new ave-
nues. But it confirmed something others have said is
so, and I had rationalized to the contrary. Now I have
to study and come to a conviction that I've been wrong
and I have to change my attitude towards this.

15U

I
 144

The recognition of Client l's need to change his at-

titude points toward the internalizing of a value system,

the outcome of any true learning.

(Co.): You had the old idea of authority.

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): Yes, not in the way it was

exercised but in the way it's vested. I had the verti-
cal -a, . Now the implications I see are terrific...I
have t, yip the whole community and we should be one in
this. This is quite intense.

One 07,- sense excitement as well as some anxiety in

Client 1' changing view of himself.

(Co.): The fact that all the authority rests in the

community.

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): Upon our accepting this is

going to determine the structure of our community.

(Co.): Yes.

Statement 5. (Cl. 1)? I guess I have a bi.t of fear

of not being able to achieve the assurance that this is
the way. I also haw. to have humility to accept this

(Co.): There's going to be a great deal of humility

in accepting all this.

Statement 6. (Cl. 1): Weil, particularly with one

person with whom I've entered into a great deal of dis-
cussion on the matter. Not on the matter of how author-
ity is exercised but in the origin of it.

An awareness of the need to change is the result,

not just of counseling, but of counseling-learning. We see

this .vielonced in the statements of Client 1.

Client 02

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): I was very interested in

what the lecturer said about the image of authority.

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That authority different from the politicians because

theirs is distributed. And policemen are then to en-
fc,rce it. But all their authority is given to them from
the community. And I think we have to see that in the
same light.

(Co.): So what got you from the lecture was that

the authority is diffused among the people. And it has to
be enforced and kept in its proper perspective. And that
changes came from within rather than on top.

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): The people began to realize

that we have this authority ourselves.

Client 2 is clearly strugt;ling to relate the 7ontent

of the lecture to himself. It is no longer just externalized

facts.

(Co.): The people are beginning to realize that

they have this obligation since we have an obligation to
help out.

Statement 3. (Cl. 2): Yes. This is what I got out

of this. A major example with the Watergate thing...no
one knowing who did it. Who's the one who gave the
authority.

(Co.): It seems to come from everywhere and nobody

knows exactly where it does come from.

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): These people who thought they

had authority were thrown out...and we don't know who
else is gonna be thrown out. People began to realize
that they are there because we elected the man who put
them there, and certainly if we are not satisfied with
them, then it's time for us to do something.

(Co.): We have put them there and if ha's not doing

what we want we should remove them.

Statement 5. (Cl. 2): Yes. He's not going to dis-

tribute the authority we've given him. And if those who
have the authority are going to abuse it then we have to
get rid of the one who has given them the authority.
The autl-lrity is in the people themselves as I see it.

15,
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Client #3

Statement 1. (Cl. 3): What struck me was not so

much the authority but the very beginning of the ses-
sion...where the word "science" degenerated into the
problem solving aspect. Each person receives in his own
unique way all that is presented to him. And yet you've
got to receive me as I really am.

In his reaction o. Monday, Client 3, although posi-

tive, spoke only of hims, ,.. He, by contrast, here relates

directly to the material of the lecture and how it applies to

himself.

(Co.): So you're saying that the thing that really

hit you was science and how it applies to your life.

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): Right. And that's the other

thing he mentioned. To love means to give something
really valuable. This is really important to me and I
want to give it. And I had another reflection. In or-
der for me to love another, I have to love myself. Be-
cause if love is giving something valuable then how can
I love another honestly and sincerely if I hate myself.
I've got to really love myself first or else its like
the saying goes..."I love you because I need you." The
real aspect is I need you because I love you...I respect
you because you're as important as I am. And I want to.
give this importance to you.

This statement of Client 3 shows movement toward the

internalization of value, the hoped for outcome of learning.

(Co.): So you're saying that the first step is that

you have to love yourself. And it's in this that you
are able to pass on to others what love is.

Statement 4. (Cl. 3): Right. And accepting myself

I can then in turn accept you...and tha+-'s how the love
has got to grow. You are valuable to yourself and you
are valuable to me because we have this communication.
 147

Client #4

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): I think this afternoon the

lecturer came in and said to us that for the last three
days we have been absorbing the method and that now he
was going to tell us what the method was. In the end,
he summarized and said that he was leaving us with his
assistants because he knew that his method of counseling
had not been contaminated through the process in which
they had received it. I think that was really reassur-
ing because I know that there were a lot of people com-
plaining, myself included, that wa weren't getting
enough assistance from the lecturer...that it was all
from his assistants. And I finally realize that it
doesn't matter because his assistants are giving us
the same thing.

We see a sharp contrast in this statement of Cli-

ent 4 on Friday to his statements on Monday. Then, he was

totally focused on himself and his affective state; now he

relates directly to the lecture.

(Co.): So you really saw the lecturer give us some-

thing here. A synthesis which said that what you have
been experiencing he will put into theory for you.
Statement 2. (Cl. 4): I would say that he implied
that. He didn't come right out and state it...he just
implied that in his presentation.

(Co.): Then he told us that he is leaving behind

those who have done what he himself would do. And you
have confidence in them.

Statement 3. (Cl. 4): And not only in his leaving

behind others...I think that feeling had pretty well
disappeared in me yesterday. Today I just thought of
those other people, that was all.

(Co.): In other words, you can now see his reason

for not being here all the time. These other men can
carry on and give the same kind of presentation he will
give.

Statement 4. (Cl. 4): I'm not too sure with that

answer that I'm just giving in to you or not. Because
I think I've lost track of what was happening.

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Client 4 is still holding back somewhat from a com-

plete commitment, or he may be reacting to the off-toned re-

sponse of the counselor.

Summary - Group #2

In Clients 1 and 2 of this group, we saw movement

from concern with a "problem" on Monday, to a struggle with

internalizing values on Friday. This would be the final

step in a learning process, i.e., movement from particulari-

zation to symbolization to self -- investment.

In Clients 3 and 4, we saw a high degree of particu-

larization on Monday in their focus on themselves. As this

became symbolized for them, however, they were able also to

move toward a value choice by Friday.

Group #3

Sampling 1 - Monday

Client #1

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): Actually, I was just question-

ing my own motiyations...I was just wondering what my
real motivations were. Did I at the time, just sort of
just get into the fun and games bit, or was I just act-
ing really like a kid? I was really puzzled what my
motives were and whether or not I was going into the
spirit of the t,ing or was I showing my independence.

(Co.): You are anxious about what 's behind this re-
mark? Whether you were trying to be sor.1 of a crowd-
pleaser, or whether you were trying to look better than
the other guy. Do you feel certain you can come to any
conclusion as to what it was?

Statement 2. (Cl. 1): I don't really know. What I

know of my own personality, I always classified myself
 149

as a sort of ambitious coward. Well, I would have to

sort of have to excell at everything, and so forth.
Maybe I was sort of following a pattern, and that is
something I really don't like about myself. Maybe kind
of a show-off.

In the above two statements, Client 1 seems to be

questioning the motivation behind his reactions, rather than

showing any resistance. There may be some guilt which can

be defeating to adult learning, unless properly channelled.

(Co.): So you can look good here; wherever there is

someone else better than you, you would have been back-
ing out. So is that what you meant by ambitious coward?

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): No, I wasn't paying any at-

tention. I wondered if I was making any progress.

(Co.): Did you do it on your own?

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): I was just asserting my inde-

pendence.

Client 2 appears to be struggling with his own will-

ingness to submit to what he does not know. In suggesting

that he is secure when sure of what he knows, he must be

willing to risk the insecurity of not knowing in order to

learn.

(Co.): So you see yourself in this role of assert-

ing your independence in other situations - not just in
this one.

Statement 5. (Cl. 1): Right, I am just wondering

if this is a basic underlying a pattern of personality.
For instance, if someone is telling a story, I think I've
got to top that. I was just wondering if it was sort of
a personality trait, and I wouldn't like it in somebody
else, but, of course, I know something we condem in
others is something we have ourselves, if we don't deal
with it. So you see, it's easy enough to reform the
other person, and that`'was a little bit of an eye-opener
to me. Is this going on, and I am unaware of it?

1.''.)1.)
 150

In questioning himself and his own motivation in t he

learning experience, Client 1 is somewhat threatened, al-

though not resistant.

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): I find it difficult to react

cognitively to the program because I feel uneasy about
the whole process. I am not too sure where we're going
with this.

(Co.): Yes, so you weren't interested in the actual

content, but to understand the process.

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): Right. The actual dialog

meant little to me. I would have to go back over the
dialog to get that. I was more interested in the feel-
ir expressed there, and in trying to analyze them.

(Co.): Then you were more interested in the coun-

selor, how he was handling the situation. So you have
misgivings about the prupose of the whole process.

Statement 3. (Cl. 2): It is not a doubting of the

process...I don't know enough about the process as yet.
I have anxiety there. I was trying to classify the pro-
cess rather than what was being said.

Client 2 shows some difficulty in totally entering

into the experience. He is more comfortable analyzing what

is going on than in experiencing it.

(Co.): So your problem is with the whole, where we

are going, and that you can't get yourself going.

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): Perhaps it is a failure to

relax in a situation...trying to see where we are going.

(Co.): So you feel those leading us don't know

where we are going.

Statement 5. (Cl. 2): No, I can't agree. It is my

own anxiety as to whether I can fit into where we are
going.

(Co.): Well, you are interested in getting answers

and so far the process has just been to restate the
problems. The temptation is just to get on with it.
 151

Statement 6. (Cl. 2): Right.

(Co.): You are more interested in the process which

is going on? You feel anxiety that you don't get on to
the content.

Statement 7. (Cl. 2): I think I am caught up in my-

self and the anxiety of the week and not knowing what is
coming next.

Client 2 clearly states his anxiety in investing in

the learning process. This anxiety is to be expected, at

least, initially, but unless it is openly dealt with, learn-

ing can be blocked.

Client #3

Statement 1. (Cl. 3): I am wondering where all of

this is going and I was expecting what the counselor was
going to say, and react...and having heard from people
in the group, that he was straightforward I was almost
,

waiting for a showdown. And yet, I couldn't see where

this was going to fit in.

As with the clients of Groups #1 and #2 on Monday,

we see here something of the observer attitude in Client 3.

(Co.): So you were expecting a little blow-up?

Statement 2. (Cl. 3): Right! And especially when

they said that in watching this film, you may react very
strongly toward it...and I thought we would all fight,
but when I saw the wal the counselor handled it...he
was very gentle, and at least I felt it represented the
transition very well. A prime factor of the whole ex-
perience is to create an atmosphere in which the person
can relate his fears and his anger, and not feel
threatened.

(Co.): You felt good after seeing that film and it

gave you an insight as to what the whole technique is?

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): It did, it really did. I

really felt good about it. As I say, it went against the

s)6
1.r..
 152

expectations that I had, but I was glad because I didn't

like what I was expecting.

Client 3, although not fully understanding what took

place, experiences relief from his own anxieties resulting

from his expectation of what might happen. Expectation of

what might take place in a learniJ situation can often

block any further learning.

(Co.): You reacted, but not in the way you ex-

pected.

Statement 4. (Cl. 3): Right, and this gets on to

another point. When people said the counselor was very
direct, I visualized people leaving here with broken
souls, with such very direct handling of people's re-
lating.

(Co.): So you came here with anxiety about this

whole thing?

Statement 5. (Cl. 3): To see the way he handled

it...letting them speak, they came out feeling a lot
better and there wasn't this terrible flare-up.

(Co.): You are saying he was an ideal counselor,

and it made you feel good. Your anxiety disappeared.

Statement 6. (Cl. 3): Yes.

Client #4

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): I think I had a little bit

opposite...having heard the introduction to the film.
Someone who had seen the film told me he had taken the
counselor's side of view; I didn't expect to have very
strong feelings about that, because he had time to calm
down and I W4S slightly surprised by a few cynical re-
marks he made. In reacting to him, I could sympathize
with him in doing it.

(Co.): So you don't think he was answering the an-

xieties of the moment?

Statement 2. (Cl. 4): Oh, I think he did...

 153

(Co,): You thought he was still on the defensive,

then.

Statement 3. (Cl. 4): Oh, I think he would catch

himself and go back to the other responses. Maybe it
would be phony not to have slight things like that...
and, also, I had the feeling I didn't know what this
fight was about and it didn't come out in the film.

(Co.): It was almost a mystery dhat this whole

thing was about.

Statement 4. (Cl. 4): Right. It seemed it was

centered on their feelings instead of the content. I
was kind of saying to myself...there we:I't much content,
not what the fight was about, but what my feelings are
about the fight.

Client 4 was so focused on what sir .11 was

that he missed the learning experience. .:;,:ching for

content and seems to have learned little from the personal

engagement.

(Co.): And the way he handled it when it came out

to the group.

Statement 5. (Cl. 4): It seemed like, if you didn't

know it was this way, it would seem people were being
over-sensitive.

(Co.): Of what the fight was? You weren't informed

sufficiently?

Statement 6. (Cl. 4): Right.

(Co.): Then you seem to give the impressionthat

you wanted their problem to be your problem.

Statement 7. (Cl. 4): I'm not saying I wanted it.

I think there wasn't too much content. The fight was
not the issue, but the issue was their feelings about
the issue.

(Co.): So you really couldn't identify with the

client in this situation because you didn't know what
the problem was?

Statement 8. (Cl. 4): No, I'm not saying that I

leo
 154

would have necessarily wanted to know. All I'm saying

is that what the issue was, was not brought out.

(Co.): You were watching their feelings rather than

the actual situation.

Statement 9. (Cl. 4): I was saying, "This is more

about feelings that what the feelings were about."

(Co.): So you thought they did that very well.

Statement 10. (Cl. 4): Yes, I think I have the

feelings you expressed. It's in the way the memory op-
erates. We are used to the kind of content that we can
dig our minds into.

'Co.): So you found it difficult to react in a cog-

nitive way to this?

Statement 11. (Cl. 4): In a sense it was frustrat-

ing...I was saying at first, "I wonder what they were
fighting about." But as it went on, I realized that
what they were fighting about was their feelings about
one another.

Summary

The clinets in Group #3 also seem to experience a

high degree of frustration in not knowing what the content

was that seemed to cause the particular issue between the

teacher-knower and the learners. In many cases, adults are

so content orientated that they fail to learn from a whole

person communication. They are frustrated and often angered

when the subject matter is not clear. In the small groups,

these feelings are accepted and understood by the members

who act as counselors. As a result, the client is freed

from these feelings and tends to be more open to reflect on

what actually took place in the whole-person communication.

161
 155

Group #3

Sampling 2 - Friday

Client #1

Statement 1. (Cl. 1): I am trying to think how I

can make this my own. I think perhaps the realization
of the change that takes place in persons gave me a new
insight. If I can use this example when he changed
this morning from positive to negative...this awareness
was a very sharp thing, and some people do change that
sharply, but when all of a sudden, the person does
leave the position and respond to something else...as a
counselor, I learned that the counselor would be open to
change in a person. You should accept where he is but
you should also accept a change in him.

(Co.): So you're saying, "Take him as he is and go

where he will.

Statement 2. (Cl. 1): Hang loose.

(Co.): Hang loose.

Statement 3. (Cl. 1): Yes. I can see this even

outside the counseling position...to let my own personal
relationships hang loose...to let them go where they
will...don't set a goal as to where they have to be.

(Co.): So you think of yourself as "God" in the

situation?

Statement 4. (Cl. 1): Well, someone threw that at

me last night and I almost bit his tongue off. I resent
it very strongly, but in a sense, I am trying to be the
manipulator in that sense...but this is probably very
true...that I am deciding.

In contrast to his first statements on Monday,

Client 1 here no longer is questioning his motivations but

has a high degree of insight and is desirous of internaliz-

ing what he has heard and experienced as a counselor.

(Co.): You want to control the situation but you

1E34
 156

know you have to let go.

Statement 5. (Cl. 1): Well, I don't want to control

the situation and I much resent thin:ing of myself as
having done so. But I have done it.

Client #2

Statement 1. (Cl. 2): I found the last part, when

he was talking about going from a problem-solving thing
to a tore personal thing, was kind of interesting...
when he used the ideas of the seed in the ground or the
mother-father relationship. That kind of struck home to
me because in the Middle Ages they thought of the mother-
father relationship as the seed going into the ground.
The mother didn't have anything more to contribute than
passivity. I think that scientific advances, knowing
that she does contribute the egg, is a good motto to
the thing...because it's almost an active passivity in
the sense that it's a total giving of self in order to
receive. The counselor totally gives in order to re-
ceive.

(Co.): So you're happy that he used that situation

because he struck home to you. He couldn't have used a
better motto and you're very happy about it. Is that
your feeling?

Statement 2. (Cl. 2): Well, I don't know about

happy...but intellectually happy. I was surprised that
he didn't take it a step further, and use the example.
Maybe he wants us to take it from there and add some-
thing of our own to it...to actually make it our own and
make it something more.

(Co.): The creativity comes in here by using some-

thing he said and taking it one step further.

Statement 3. (Cl. 2): Right. Like .i think that,

for instance...I think there is a great deal of truth in
this problem-solving sense when the lecturer said it's
like putting red and yellow together to make orange. It
still looks red to us...so that seems to be negative.
Instead of filtering out things, we can add things.

(Co.): In a sense, we take what we want from a

situation, the positive side. There's almost an adding
rather than just taking what we want.

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): Riaht. I think that he

pointed out that this is not for the counselor to do
that, but for the client. This is the temptation for

160
 157

the counselor to add to it, but the client should be

led to it. The client would be teaching the counselor.

(Cr'.): I don't see anything wrong with the coun-

selor helping by enhancing it a little.

Statement 5. (Cl. 2): I was almost going to make

this comment at the beginning. You could have said what
I meant, but instead you let me say it. This is not up
to the counselor to make the application for the person,
but for the client to come to it himself. I think that
in that point you did well. You kind of consolidated
what I had said so it gave me a chance to think of what
I wanted to say next. In fact, it was when you were
consolidating that I thought out the next thing and I
could go on. If you hadn't stopped me I wouldn't have
gotten the idea.

Client 2 is no longer a spectator analyzing what is

going on. He is now into the experience and has a good deal

of insight into what it means to learn by actually listening

as a counselor.

Client #3

Statement 1. (Cl. 3): I appreciate very much this

session because I feel I have changed much in the last
seven years.

(Co.): So it gave you a chance to reflect on this?

Statement 2. (Cl. 3): Yes, and the changes in

others, the acceptance of others when they do not change,
not being forceful when they do not change...the hurt
that sometimes comes when I have changed and others have
not accepted me. All these flashes went through my mind
and I think I am very much reflective on all of these
thoughts on new creations between incarnation hearings
that have been going on in the process.

(Co.): Let me see if I understand you so far. It

was hearing the lecturer speak about change that was
satisfying to you, and you feel good inside because as
you heard him speaking, you could see in a flash how
you seldom could look at change itself where it has
been good and hurtful, and realizing the understanding
of change itself has been very helpful.
 158

Statement 3. (Cl. 3): True...and hopefully, not im-

posing change on others but letting them be, that is my
hope and my greatest insight into what a counselor had
to do. New life can only come from reflective life
within yourself.

Client 3 demonstrates a high degree of symbol' ation

and also movement toward internalization in the statement.

(Co.): So you see that as...

Statement 4. (Cl. 2): I see that as a very import-

ant thing. It has happened to me because of others, and
the circle widens as we accept this in others...and this
just is an ongoing thing...and with the kind of thing
that I am involved in that it might even be more personal
to me as a professional counselor.

(Co.): I don't feel a need to reflect right now.

Statement 5. (Cl. 3): I saw understanding change as

a problem area. People not being able to accept me be-
cause I am freer than they are. It just gave me a new
insight because...it does help me to understand change
itself, and maybe I am a threat because I can understand
change faster, and I know I do on change. I am way
ahead of people and it gives me a peaceful feeling to
listen to them. If other people don't change as fast,
so what? Let them be.

(Co.): There is a spectrum of change.

Statement 6. (Cl. 3): Right...and I am just a point

on that spectrum. You have to just let every point be
where it is. It's hard to accept at first...so I fcel
much more peaceful about it now.

(Co.): Will you change for the better? You know,

change can go two ways, for the Letter or for the worse.

Client #4

Statement 1. (Cl. 4): I was thinking negatively,

but the session was concrete and relevant. Of all the
things we have had here that was a practical one that
could be used in outside situations. You can have a
person for a few short minutes and communicate with him
on a high level and do some good.
 159

(Co.): So you found the session more helpful than

the others because of its being practical and because
of its application in your life.

Statement 2. (Cl. 4): Well, the other sessions have

been good, but this one was cx sptional. Time limits
don't make counseling useless. The way he said that, if
the client knows it at th beginning, that you only have
five minutes, it's more relaxed. It's our tendency not
to tell th3 person. If we say, well I have to be some-
place in minutes, maybe we're a little more transparent.
There is anxiety in being ambivalent.

Client 4 is far less negative in comparison to Mon-

day. He no longer is so highly particularized in an observ-

ant role but is deeply engaged in the experiences and has

moved to a much higher degree of symbolization.

(Co.): The session gave you a better feeling about

time.

Statement 3. (Cl. 4): You can get a deep personal

encounter in just a few minutes if you don't worry about
time. It does open up a whole new thing about using
time.

Summary - Group #3

Again, :a Group 3 as in Groups 1 and 2, we see

a sharp contrast in movement from Monday to Friday. The

counselors in the small group sessions enable the highly

particularized and somewhat resistant participants on Monday

to move to more symbolization and internalization on Friday.

Summary of the Three Groups

What was said in the conclusion of the three groups

sampled at Sinsinawa (Appendix A) can also be said of the

1M0
 160

two samplings taken during the Toronto Institute.

1. Resistance or confusion in the opening state-

ments of the first sampling.

2. A great deal of struggle in entering into and

accepting the Counseling-Learning Model.

3. Less resistance and more internalization at the

conclusion of the five days as indicated in the final samp-

ling.

The movement from a high particularization and low

self-investment, or internalization, in the initial sampling

to less particularization and more self-investment, or in-

ternalization, in the final sampling is not as sharply dem-

onstrated in the Toronto samplings compared to the Sinsinawa

samplings. Nevertheless, movement is evident and the par-

ticipants seem to grow toward community learning. In the

final samplings, there appears to be less questioning,

doubting, and negation, and more openness, accepting, and

understanding.

1 (3
 Appendix C

Form Letter to the Judges

Dear

Thank you for consenting to be one of the panel of

judges rating the enclosed protocols.

I would ask you to follow these instructions. You

will notice that, at the end of each enclosed protocol,
there are the letters "P," "S," and "I," and the numbers
1 through 5. The letter "P" stands for particularization,
"S" for symbolization, and "I" for investment (meaning self-
investment or internalization).

Would you please indicate what each of the protocols

measure as far as "P," "S," or "I" by encircling numbers
1 through 5, number 5 indicating the highest number on
scale. Each statement may have elements of all three,
particularization, symbolization, and investment, or one,
two, or none. Please encircle the number which you feel
would indicate the degree to which each particular statement
contains the element of particularization, symbolization, or
investment.

I hope the instructions are clear enough and, if

not, please do not hesitate to contact me about them for
further clarification. Please judge the enclosed material
at your earliest convenience and return to me.

Very sincerely,

'61
 Appendix D

Three groups from the Sinsinawa Institute were

sampled to give an indication of how the judges correlated

their scores. The first five statements of each of the four

clients in the three groups were sampled three times (Monday,

Wednesday, and Friday) and the scores of the four judges

indicated to what extent each statement contained particular-

ization, symbolization, and self-investment (internalization).

The sums of the judges scoring for the four clients'

fifteen statements, totalling sixty statements for each group

were then calculated by the following formula, developed by

Galton & Pearson, to determine the correlation between the

four judges.

nECY - (IX) (EY)

7nEXt - (L5C)i /nEY2- (EY

P = Particularization

S = Symbolization

IN = Self-Investment (Internalization)

Group #1

TOTAL P S IN

Judge 1 & 2 .95 .89 .84

Judge 3 & 4 .98 .95 .86
Judge 2 & 3 .97 :94 .78
Judge 2 & 4 .99 .96 .86
Judge 1 & 3 .98 .88 .95
Judge 1 & 4 .98 .89 .91
 Group #2

TOTAL P S IN
Judge 1 & 2 .77 .95 .80
Judge 3 & 4 .85 .96 .67
Judge 2 & 3 .74 .96 .85
Judge 2 & 4 .95 .93 .68
Judge 1 & 3 .99 .99 .97
Judge 1 & 4 .87 .94 .67

Group #3

TOTAL P S IN
Judge 1 & 2 .88 .96 .70
Judge 3 & 4 .87 .96 .85
Judge 2 & 3 .95 .97 .97
Judge 2 & 4 .91 .96 .73
Judge 1 & 3 .78 .94 .67
Judge 1 & 4 .85 .91 .88

163

170
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