Traveling Between the Worlds Conversations with

Contemporary Shamans

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Also by Hillary S. Webb
Exploring Shamanism: Using Ancient Rites to Discover
the Unlimited Healing Powers of Cosmos and
Consciousness
 Copyright © 2004
by Hillary S. Webb
All rights reserved, including the right to reproduce this
work in any form whatsoever, without permission
in writing from the publisher, except for brief passages
in connection with a review.

Cover design by Jane Hagaman

Cover painting © 2004 “Journey Into Ancestors”
Susan Cohen Thompson

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Library of Congress Cataloging-in-Publication Data

Webb, Hillary S., 1971-
Traveling between the worlds : conversations with contemporary
shamans / Hillary S. Webb.
p. cm.
ISBN 1-57174-403-7 (pbk. : alk. paper)
1. Shamanism. 2. Shamans--Interviews. I. Title.
BF1611.W4 2004
201'.44--dc22
2004007804

ISBN 1-57174-403-7

10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2

Printed on acid-free, recycled paper in Canada

To all seekers of wisdom:
past, present, and future.
 Author’s Note

The chapters that follow come from more than forty-five hours
worth of taped conversations with shamans from a variety of tradi-
tions around the world. Needless to say, the transcripts in their
entirety would fill up several volumes. Due to space constraints, as
well as for ease of reading, the conversations that follow have been
edited. In cases where even the slightest editing was needed, I con-
tacted the subject of the interview so that both of us could be
assured that the meaning had not been altered in any way. I would
like to thank all of them for their help with that process.
 Table of Contents
Acknowledgments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .xi
Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .xiii
Conversations with Contemporary Shamans:
The Interviews
Oscar Miro-Quesada . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3
John Perkins . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .14
Rabbi Gershon Winkler . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .24
Alex Stark . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .34
Geo Trevarthen, Ph.D. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .44
Serge Kahili King, Ph.D. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .56
Gabrielle Roth . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .66
Brant Secunda . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .76
Ipupiara Makunaiman . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .86
Hank Wesselman, Ph.D. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .95
Ken Eagle Feather . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .105
Christina Pratt . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .116
OmeAkaEhekatl (Erick Gonzalez) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .127
Lewis Mehl-Madrona, M.D. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .137
Malidoma Patrice Somé . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .146
Larry Peters, Ph.D. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .157
Tom Cowan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .167
Elena Avila . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .177
Evelyn C. Rysdyk and C. Allie Knowlton . . . . . . . . . . . . .188
Simon Buxton . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .198
 Brooke Medicine Eagle . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .210
Sandra Ingerman . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .220
Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .230
Contact Information . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .239
About the Author . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .245
About the Cover Artist . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .247
 Acknowledgments

Over the course of the three and a half years that it took me to
compile these conversations, I always remained aware of what
unique and wonderful teachings I was receiving. Very early on in the
project, I discovered that I no longer cared whether or not the col-
lection ever found its way to the bookstore shelves. Somewhere
along the line, my original goal of publishing the conversations
became secondary to the experience of just talking to these adven-
turers of the spirit.
That said, I was, of course, still thrilled when Frank DeMarco
of Hampton Roads Publishing enthusiastically agreed to publish the
book. Thank you, Frank, for your vision and faith in taking on a
project that was, admittedly, a little bit “out of the box.” (And
thanks to Ken Smith for introducing me to Frank in the first place!)
As always, the insights of many people helped me to express
myself as fully and clearly as possible in the writing and editing of
the book. Thank you to Pam Broido, Carl Hyatt, Mark Towle, and
Stephany Evans for your feedback on the manuscript in all its vari-
ous stages. Special thanks go to my mother, sister, and to Maddi
Wallach for their enduring support and wisdom. And to you, Derek,
for being your wonderful self, and for continuously challenging me
in all the best possible ways. When two truths come together, new
worlds are revealed.
xi
Traveling between the Worlds
To each of the shamanic visionaries featured here, I want to
express my most sincere and heartfelt thanks for taking the time to
share your thoughts. Each of you has played a distinct role in the
way I now look at the world and my place within it. To me, there is
no greater gift than that of sharing one’s experience of the Sacred.
Those who have the courage to do so in a world that does not always
hold a space for such things give a gift to us all. Thank you to all of
our teachers who blazed the trail for us, giving us the courage and
context with which to share our stories. Thank you to the Great
Spirit and all our allies, both in physical and nonphysical form, who
every day help us to blaze new trails of our own, clearing the path
for adventurers yet to come.

xii
 Introduction

As I write this, I am sitting in the reading area at the public

library in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. It is snowing outside.
White, feathery puffs of ice dance past the windows, riding on the
February wind. Across from me, a man is asleep in one of the chairs.
He is snoring slightly; his eyelids twitch as his eyeballs flutter back
and forth in their sockets. The man is deep into REM sleep, that
fertile state of being where the dream world opens and the uncon-
scious mind is given free rein over the psyche.
Though he probably is unaware of it, this man has entered what
some practitioners of the ancient art would call a “shamanic state of
consciousness” also referred to as a “shamanic journey,” ecstasy, or
trance. The methods for inducing this state—called “techniques of
ecstasy” by historian Mircea Eliade—include dreamwork, the
ingestion of hallucinogenic plants, chanting, drumming, fasting, and
various kinds of ordeals. Once released from the constraints of the
“logical” mind, the shaman’s soul is free to journey into alternate
realities and dimensions; places full of symbols and archetypes,
myth and divine meaning. In these states, the shaman undergoes a
visionary experience in which he or she comes in contact with his or
her spirit guides who provide the shaman with otherwise unavail-
able information to bring back to “ordinary” reality. Unlike the
dreamstate of the man sleeping in the chair, the shaman—who can
xiii
Traveling between the Worlds
access these states consciously and at will—goes into the journey
with a specific goal to be accomplished before returning to his or her
ordinary state of consciousness.
These techniques for altering consciousness have been used by
tribal people from around the world to bring balance and harmony
both to the community and to the individual. But while such prac-
tices are commonplace in most indigenous settings, the concept of
such a magical journey may be a hard one for those of us brought up
in the linear Western* mind-set to conceive of—much less believe.
This was not always so. Tens of thousands of years ago, our
ancestors experienced the world very differently. Their reality was
animated by spiritual intelligences. Through their experiences, they
discovered that one could communicate with the trees, with rocks,
and with the elemental spirits of nature, called faeries in the Celtic
tradition, the kontomble by the Dagara tribe in West Africa, and the
malkis by some South American cultures. According to their world-
view, divine power permeated the physical world. Divinity was
everywhere and in everything, and all things that existed were parts
of a whole, bound together as one in the great web of life.
It wasn’t until the early part of the seventeenth century and the
emergence of the Cartesian worldview that these experiences
became labeled as “superstition.” With the Age of Reason came a
new belief system: science. Science could explain away all the old
fears and myths: The rumblings of thunder were not caused by
angry gods but were acoustic shock waves caused by a sudden
expansion of air. “Rationalism” was the new faith, and anything that
could not be experienced through the five senses became suspect.
Suddenly nature became something that needed to be whipped into
shape. The further we got from a symbiotic relationship with

*I use the terms “Western” and “West” throughout this book not as a geograph-
ical distinction, but rather to refer to the state of mind that tends to develop
with technologically advanced cultures. In this day and age of airplanes, e-
mail, and other machinery that can connect and transport us to every corner of
the globe, we are experiencing a global “modernization” across the planet.
Geographical and economic boundaries are no longer so clear.

xiv
 Introduction
nature, the greater became the chasm between the sacred and the
mundane, until the physical realm became a dead world of inani-
mate objects. The ideas of magic, of fairies, and of talking trees all
were banished from everyday belief and placed in the land of myth
and fairy tale. In my opinion, the Book of Genesis got it wrong.
Divinity did not cast us out of the Garden. On the contrary—it was
we who cast out Divinity, removed it from all things material, and
placed it far, far away from the physical world into some great,
untouchable Heaven, well removed from the physical world of sin
and suffering.
With this new philosophy of logic came amazing scientific
achievements. Today we have harnessed the atom and can create
wondrous technology to transport us to other planets. Science has
rendered harmless what once were fatal and debilitating illnesses
with a mere manipulation of chemicals. We in the Western world
have more technological comforts than at any other time in history.
We have charted most of the world and even a bit into the universe
beyond it.
And still we ask, is that all there is?
If the widespread use of antidepressants, the increase of violent
acts committed by young people, and a growing dependency among
all groups on drugs and alcohol is any indication, it would seem that
a deep malaise has struck modern society. Despite our achievements
and material affluence, something is lacking. From a shamanic point
of view, this malaise is a symptom of our disconnection from the
numinous, from the sacred aspect of life that resides within all
things. So great is our disconnect that today most people cannot even
conceive of the possibility that worlds unseen by our commonly
acknowledged five senses could exist, much less that we could have
access to those worlds and use them as sources of guidance and wis-
dom. What we are left with is a longing. For what, we don’t know. A
loneliness. For whom, we haven’t a clue. In spite of the discoveries
we have made, many of the most fundamental mysteries of life
remain unexplained. Science has not yet answered for us the ques-
tion of where we go when we die, or for that matter, where we come
xv
Traveling between the Worlds
from just before we appear as an explosion of rapidly shifting cells
within our mothers’ wombs. We have come to rely on science so
much that we feel that if science cannot explain it, there is nowhere
else to turn. Disconnected from the sense of something bigger than
ourselves, we are like children separated from their parents in the
supermarket, walking vaguely up and down the aisles in a panicked
daze, feeling disoriented, helpless, and utterly alone.
In a belief system based in the rational, secular myth of science,
the sacred is split from the mundane. In shamanism, the two merge
and dance like lovers, in a liquid and flowing state. In many indige-
nous societies there is no word for loneliness. The very concept is
inconceivable to them. How can there be loneliness, knowing that
the universe is a kind place and that there are spiritual intelligences
assisting each one of us along our paths? Shamanic cosmology
teaches the theory of Oneness, that there is an energetic link con-
necting all things in Creation. What, then, is loneliness if you know
you can never be separate from the other?
My own personal spiritual awakening to this idea came about a
year into my study of shamanism. That fall, I attended a weeklong
workshop dedicated to learning how to enter these altered states of
consciousness using simple guided meditations. For the better part
of a week, we lay on our backs in the middle of the woods, practic-
ing shamanic journeying techniques. One day, before we began our
meditations, the leader directed us to go into the woods to find a
trail that we had never been down before. We were instructed not
to walk down the trail, but simply to take note of it. Back at the
workshop site, the leader then led us through a journey in which we
were, in our mind’s eye, standing at the head of the trail we had just
been to. We were instructed to envision ourselves walking down it,
taking in all the things we “saw” there. In my journey, I found
myself walking down a tree-lined path that then suddenly opened
up to . . . a beach. I felt frustrated with this image because, as my
logical, linear mind reasoned, there was no ocean out here in the
middle of the woods. The instructor had warned us that some of the
images might not make sense at first and to ignore the part of our
xvi
 Introduction
minds that told us so. Taking this advice, I kept going and let myself
enjoy the experience. The beach was lovely and warm, with sand
that was soft between my toes. Sparkling ocean crashed next to me.
As I walked, I looked down and found a large oyster shell at my feet.
The journey continued for several more minutes until the facil-
itator brought us out. He then instructed us to go back to the trail
and, this time, physically walk down it. I did so, not feeling too con-
fident that my journey was anything more than the aimless ram-
blings of my own imagination. As it turned out, the trail, which was
like any trail in any woods one would find, opened up onto a large
stream. On the banks of the stream, half-buried in the mud, I found
the same oyster shell I had seen in my journey.
A feeling, a lot like relief, poured through me. I ran back to the
workshop space with the shell, jumping up and down and hugging
the facilitator. I was elated. I didn’t know exactly what the experi-
ence meant, or how it had happened, but it gave me an inkling that
there might be more to life than what I had been taught in school.
Like many of us, I had always suspected it; now I knew for sure.
And not only did it confirm that there was something “other” out
there, but I had tapped into it. Little old me. In hindsight, I realize
now that the feeling that went through me during that experience
was the same as that of the child lost in the supermarket when she
finally finds her mother again. Though it can be a challenge to hold
on to that feeling of oneness during my day-to-day life, I think of
that experience, and I am at peace.
I was at a party recently and got into a conversation with a man
I had just met. He was intrigued when I told him about the book I
was compiling. He knew nothing about shamanism and wanted to
know more. I told him the story of finding the shell, citing it as one
of my most life-changing experiences in this work. When I finished
telling it, I waited for his response. He said nothing for a few
uncomfortable moments, and just stood there blinking at me. I
began to suspect he thought I was a little crazy. I was about to say
something to try to put him at ease, when he cleared his throat and
shook his head. “Do you know how lucky you are?” he asked me.
xvii