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Home r/batman • 5 mo. ago

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In Batman Begins what were your thoughts of Bruce and his "I'm Batman"
The Dark Knight. The Caped Crusader. The
Explore parents seeing the opera, Mefistofele instead of seeing an Zorro World's Greatest Detective. Ol' Pointy Ears.
film. A place to discuss the Batman and all…
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r/Scotland sbaldrick33 • 5 mo. ago •

r/XboxSeriesX Made thematic sense with the whole "fear of bats" thing. I dunno. I'm not precious about what they go to
see on their night out. It's besides the point.

463 Reply Award Share

R ES O U R CES
FreelanceFrankfurter • 5 mo. ago •
About Reddit
What if they had gone to see Deuce Bigalow: Male Gigalo?

Advertise 211 Reply Award Share

Help InfinitePoolNoodle • 5 mo. ago •

That’s how he becomes Bateman

Blog
100 Reply Award Share
Careers
Bear_Poker_ • 5 mo. ago •

Press I thought Caligula made him become Bateman

19 Reply Award Share

Communities [deleted] • 5 mo. ago •

Best of Reddit Master Bateman.

7 Reply Award Share

Topics
elpantera88 • 5 mo. ago •

The Bateman: Look at that subtle off-white coloring. The tasteful thickness of it. Oh, my
Content Policy
God.
Privacy Policy 2 Reply Award Share

User Agreement sbaldrick33 • 5 mo. ago •

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TheRealRigormortal • 5 mo. ago •

Freddy Got Fingered

4 Reply Award Share

wave-tree • 5 mo. ago •

Daddy would you like some sausages

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[deleted] • 5 mo. ago •

I mean, tbf, that is a hilarious movie lmao

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SpikeRosered • 5 mo. ago •

Also Zorro doesn't really have any resonance with modern audiences as vigilante story.

You don't need to know about Mefistofeles to notice the bat imagery during the play.

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pikapalooza • 5 mo. ago •

I didn't even catch the name. Just learned it from this today. I just assumed it was bats in an
opera.

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[deleted] • 5 mo. ago •

Zorro is about an animal themed masked vigilante, trying to avenge his father’s death

Mefistofele is about a 4 hour play not in English about a man who sells his soul to the devil in
exchange for youth..

One clearly makes more sense theme wise than the other

9 Reply Award Share

Flimsy-Discount2885 • 5 mo. ago •

For fuck's shake, how long was Joe Chill waiting in that alley? I feel worse for him now than after
Three Jokers.

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Logan8795 • 5 mo. ago •

Exactly lol it’s not exactly besides the point. Zorro was very much purposefully chosen.

4 Reply Award Share

ParamedicExcellent15 • 5 mo. ago •

Had to google to find out it means ‘fox’. I never knew this before.

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HeyThereMrBrooks • 5 mo. ago •

I speak Spanish and have never put this together until now.

If anyone's every played the first Watch_Dogs, it's essentially about a hacker who's pretty
much like Batman. His nickname? The Fox. Never put two and two together

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Fox_Bravo • 5 mo. ago •

I'm a huge Zorro fan and I've always loved the Batman/Zorro connection, so I'd rather keep that bit in, but
it's not a huge deal. He can still have seen the opera to realize his fear of bats and still use Zorro for the
superhero/dual-identity parts of his character.

173 Reply Award Share

Infinite_Parking_800 OP • 5 mo. ago •

Good point right there cause afterall Zorro is Bruce's childhood hero so i think he was still a Zorro
fan in the Nolanverse.

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MrDownhillRacer • 5 mo. ago •

In the Nolanverse, probably not.

One of the reasons Nolan changed it from a Zorro movie to the opera is that he didn't want his
Bruce Wayne to be following some pre-existing mould or archetype when he makes the
decision to be Batman. He wanted it to have been a totally novel, original idea that Bruce didn't
have any kind of blueprint for. He felt that Bruce's decision to become Batman takes on a
different meaning there are already precedents for him to emulate vs. if it's just a crazy idea he
comes up with himself.

That's part of why no other superheroes exist in the Nolanverse. Not only real ones, but ones
that are fictional in-universe, either. And there also exist no novels, tv shows, or comic-books
about precursors to superheroes, like costumed adventurers such as Zorro. In the Nolanverse,
there are no Zorro movies and the character was never even invented.

32 Reply Award Share

alchemist5 • 5 mo. ago •

Ah, he took the "nobody in the zombie movie has ever heard of a zombie before"
approach.

22 Reply Award Share

MissingCosmonaut • 5 mo. ago •

Another reason he changed it was cause he wanted to avoid a character in a movie

watching a character in a movie.

9 Reply Award Share

Shit_Apple • 5 mo. ago •

Damn, there’s no Grey Ghost in the Nolanverse? Fat L.

6 Reply Award Share

pikapalooza • 5 mo. ago •

I loved that episode.

I love that so many of my childhood stars that were largely unknown for most of my
life do the convention circuit (rob Paulsen is a national treasure and legit 50% of my
childhood...and I didn't even know his name until I was an adult)

5 Reply Award Share

MrDownhillRacer • 5 mo. ago •

I mean, I like Nolan's reasoning for his version and how it's indicative of how he
thought and cared about even the minute details, but I also wonder what the fuck six-
year-old Bruce Wayne watched on Saturday mornings. Stock market news?

2 Reply Award Share

JamieNelson94 • 5 mo. ago •

Security camera footage of that alleyway

2 Reply Award Share

DarkLake • 5 mo. ago •

Making reasonable comments like that isn’t very reddit of you.

2 Reply Award Share

jamesfox019 • 5 mo. ago •

Couldn’t help but notice the guy named Fox likes the Zorro connection…

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Kander_Thomas9516 • 5 mo. ago •

Better question where was Alfred on that fateful night? My Butler would have doubled as my Chauffeur,
with the car waiting out front if I were wealthy.

54 Reply Award Share

ElGrandeBlanco • 5 mo. ago •

Probably waiting to pull up after the opera finished but they left early so he wasn't there.

64 Reply Award Share

Kander_Thomas9516 • 5 mo. ago •

A Proper British Butler is like the Kings guard outside Buckingham palace. He does not pull up,
he waits patiently for his employer to arrive.

25 Reply Award Share

walruswes • 5 mo. ago •

I think they showed the Wayne family taking the train into town.

6 Reply Award Share

RaveniteGaming • 5 mo. ago •

That's kind of the problem with Batman's origins in any incarnation. Why were a wealthy family like
the Wayne's cutting through Crime Alley to begin with?

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Shiniholum • 5 mo. ago •

At least in Begins it makes sense considering they left the opera early through a side entrance
because Bruce was afraid. They were only in the alley because Thomas was trying to let Bruce
have some air and calm down before they would have eventually went back inside

38 Reply Award Share

Kander_Thomas9516 • 5 mo. ago •

Crime alley?

2 Reply Award Share

icecoldteddy • 5 mo. ago •

Didn't it only become known as crime alley after they were murdered there?

22 Reply Award Share

Shiniholum • 5 mo. ago •

Yeah they exited the theater directly into a side alley where they were attacked.

14 Reply Award Share

PlantainSame • 5 mo. ago •

Technically it was only called that after they died

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AdamSoucyDrums • 5 mo. ago •

At least in this iteration, Thomas definitely carried himself as being “of the people” right down
to using the public transport he funded and working in a public hospital. It wouldn’t surprise me
if that was a shortcut he’d taken a thousand times before while walking around what should feel
like his home. That, and it’s only known as Crime Alley because of the Wayne murders.

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Anorand25 • 5 mo. ago •

Originally it wasn’t an alley, it was a street corner.

https://www.colorado.edu/sites/default/files/attached-files/batman_1.jpg

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Kander_Thomas9516 • 5 mo. ago • Edited 5 mo. ago •

Rich people are usually ultra cautious, because have so much more to lose.

4 Reply Award Share

RubberyDolphin • 5 mo. ago •

This is a Gotham thing; not so far fetched imo considering the Manhattan NYC theater district
during high crime periods. Multiple theaters adjacent to dangerous alleyways.

3 Reply Award Share

PlantainSame • 5 mo. ago •

Cause tommy boy and martha like to walk among the poors

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secret_bonus_point • 5 mo. ago •

But then how could he have an amazing seven course dinner already prepared when the family gets
home? Butler priorities!

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[deleted] • 5 mo. ago •

A Man needs to take care of his family. Thomas Wayne wanted to drive and bring bis family to the
show by himself. He was not somebody who makes use all the time of his butler. It wouldnt be
ethical. He just wanted to spend time with wife and his kid without any side persons. Perhaps Alfred
was sick or had some personal business to achieve. Who knows. You can't avoid it all. You just can't.

4 Reply Award Share

Kander_Thomas9516 • 5 mo. ago •

Somehow he managed to come to the police station in the aftermath to take young Bruce
home.

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pikapalooza • 5 mo. ago •

I can picture Alfred now, sound asleep when the phone rings "Oh what the bloody hell do
they want now? Ugh.......Wayne residence - how may I - WHAT?! I'm on the way!"

2 Reply Award Share

green49285 • 5 mo. ago •

Even wealthy people can't block up the front entrance LOL

2 Reply Award Share

Crash_Smasher • 5 mo. ago •

Thomas probably gave him the day off.

2 Reply Award Share

pikapalooza • 5 mo. ago •

He was singing the little Spanish flea while eating pork rinds in the car in the parking lot

https://youtu.be/OSxVMlO7hgU?si=2GR0HgwCKgB2JQ95

2 Reply Award Share

bladestorm1745 • 5 mo. ago •

Didn’t the Wayne’s take the train down?

2 Reply Award Share

LoschVanWein • 5 mo. ago •

Didn’t they exit through the back door or something?

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Admirable-Safety1213 • 5 mo. ago •

Good Citizens want to show the Public Transit System is useful 24 hours all 7 days of the week

2 Reply Award Share

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StartingForever • 5 mo. ago •

I liked how it added a layer of “self blame” for Bruce over his parents death. He was a child whose phobia
was triggered by the bats on stage, which led to his panic attack and the family leaving early and into the
alley. Young Bruce confides that guilt to Alfred. Perhaps he could have been scared by a bat in a Zorro
movie, but I liked how his fear was not only his symbolic tool against crime, but his fear of them was
something he hated about/blamed himself for, and he then embraces it to become the Batman. Neat
change.

26 Reply Award Share

Batmanmotp2019 • 5 mo. ago •

A little heavy handed with the symbolism but it's all right

37 Reply Award Share

The_Dung_Defender • 5 mo. ago •

Tbf all the Nolan’s films are, mostly in a good way though.

5 Reply Award Share

Ultimafax • 5 mo. ago •

People are saying the bat people are on the nose ... but isn't Zorro even more so? It kinda implies Bruce
lacks creativity and is just living out a childhood fantasy (which would actually be interesting if a writer
wanted to explore just how mentally disturbed, and not just traumatized, he is, but then Batman would be
more of a sick joke).

The film really hammers home that the point of Batman isn't just to punch criminals in the face; it's to
inflict fear on them. I appreciated that.

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Les-incoyables • 5 mo. ago •

In The Dark Knight's Visual Guide it says that Bruce would rather have seen The Mark of Zorro at a movie
house.

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RickMonsters • 5 mo. ago •

I always thought it was weird that literal billionaires would be watching a movie in a theatre instead of in
their mansion or something. How many times do you go to your local cinema and see Jeff Bezos in the
popcorn line?

The opera makes more sense

25 Reply Award Share

pedeztrian • 5 mo. ago •

Bob Kane, the creator, said Zorro was the influence with his two personas. The Mark Zorro film they
were purported of seeing was released in 1940, one year after the Batman character was created.
Movies were a BIG deal back then. Oh… and there really wasn’t a concept of a billionaires short of
absolute titans like Rockefeller. Bruce didn’t become independently wealthy until the comics in 1948.

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MrDownhillRacer • 5 mo. ago •

I think Bruce Wayne just wasn't originally meant to be Bezos-level rich.

Sure, you'll never see one of the top ten riches men in line at your local Cineplex, but I'm sure plenty
of rich people see movies at the same places everyone else does.

7 Reply Award Share

Ultimafax • 5 mo. ago •

maybe not so much now, but pre-streaming era, yeah

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onetruezimbo • 5 mo. ago •

Its servicable, works with the overall "fear and theatrics" thing Batman Begins is going for with its version
of Burce and how different characters use fear in that film, the Zorro connection is nice but not a deal
breaker

6 Reply Award Share

Parker813 • 5 mo. ago • Edited 5 mo. ago •

I don't have a problem with it

5 Reply Award Share

wadeofhonor • 5 mo. ago •

To me, it makes more sense in a modern setting for his parents to be dressed up to see an opera vs a
regular movie going experience. I don't think Martha (I said that name!) Wayne would be wearing a string
of pearls to a movie theater in the 80's/90's. Also, the added context of the family being in formal attire
adds to the "why" of being mugged in an alley without trying to shoe-horn in some deeper foul play.
Nolan wanted to be a bit more grounded and believable. This change was an intentional choice to that
end.

5 Reply Award Share

Educational-Dig-3929 • 5 mo. ago •

There are overarching parts of the Batman lore that they should stick to, but it's going to be very difficult
to keep the character vibrant and fresh if every single detail has to be exactly the same in every different
incarnation.

4 Reply Award Share

apricotmask • 5 mo. ago •

What a mature opinion, are you sure you are in the right sub?

3 Reply Award Share

parrmorgan • 5 mo. ago •

It being Zorro isn't a requirement for me so I dug how the play was a bunch of bat people.

3 Reply Award Share

benn1680 • 5 mo. ago •

Makes more sense for a billionaire and his family to go to an opera than a common movie theater.

Still doesn't make sense why they were walking and not getting into a chauffeur driven limousine though.

5 Reply Award Share

TheBatman7424 • 5 mo. ago • Edited 5 mo. ago •

They probably used a side or back entrance and were just walking around to the front where Alfred
would see them and could pick them up? Or, as someone else said, he probably had the day off. The
Wayne's were down to earth despite being very wealthy, so I don't think it feels out of character for
them to decide to walk a little way to their family car. Maybe the alley was a shortcut to some rear
parking spaces?

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CA1147 • 5 mo. ago • Edited 5 mo. ago •

Having him see Zorro makes way more sense in my head.

Bruce doesn't have much time as a kid mentally, but I've pieced together little things that would influence
Bruce's "one bad day" to be handled the way it is:

Bruce sees his father as a doctor and associates with Leslie Thompkins, another doctor and
humanitarian. They influence young Bruce to see each life as important and worth rehabilitating.
Because Thomas and Leslie work in under privileged areas of the city, Thomas picks a movie cinema
in the neighborhood where he works (which gets them killed) and adds to the tragedy. Bruce can see
how his father ignored danger in favor of believing in the good in people no matter what their
struggle may be (sounds familiar).
under privileged neighborhoods tend to not have many stage theaters but very likely to have a movie
theater
the night in question, Bruce can see how his father works until the last minute, making his obsession
part of the reason why they went to such a late show
Zorro is a nod to the actual inspiration for Batman's whole shtick and I always liked that this was
addressed
Thomas Wayne is like Zorro, because he could easily have a luxurious life but instead chooses to
help the people in his city. Bruce needs to see that.

It just seems more poetic that Bruce would take inspiration, not only from the Zorro movie but also why
they went to that theater in the first place.

It makes way more sense than "I picked a bat theme because they scare the shit out of me as a kid so
hopefully It scares the shit out of other random adults too." Just not as interesting and more of a leap in
logic to make the connection to the themes of dressing in black, wearing a cape, secret identity, helping
the less fortunate, a rope to swing around (like Zorro's whip), secret cave under his mansion, obsession
with his mission, etc...

Batman is inspired by Zorro a lot and I think it's good and organic to a young boy to be inspired like that.

The stage show was... such an old person thing to do and doesn't do a good job showing Thomas as a
father that is connected to his son and therefore Bruce wanting to follow in his footsteps. Like, why would
Thomas think it was a good idea to go to that if not even he wanted to be there and is willing to leave at
any time? I like the thought of Bruce feeling guilty for making his dad catch the movie he desperately
wanted to see just for things to end the way they did. It just feels more tragic and more logical.

Bruce needs to watch a Zorro movie and it has to be in a poor part of town in Gotham near where Thomas
and Leslie's hospital is located.

6 Reply Award Share

TheBatman7424 • 5 mo. ago •

This is the most thought out response to this I've read and I agree that there's a lot of reasons why
it's a better choice. However, consider that this movie came out in 2005, meaning it would have been
in production since 2003. The Antonio Banderas movie came out in 2005, so they couldn't have
used it. On top of that, any current movie references would date the film, removing its timelessness.
Also, the original Zorro movie, even if they could even get rights to it, would have seemed out of
place and a bit dated for the modern Bruce they were trying to portray. I don't know if I would expect
an 8-10 year old kid to be able to sit through it any better than the opera or for it to be played in the
public theater at the time.

3 Reply Award Share

CA1147 • 5 mo. ago •

I hear you and I have a solution:

They aren't there to see the Antonio Banderas movie. They're there to see an old Zorro movie
that Thomas grew up with. The only viewing is at an old and broken down cinema in (you
guessed it) old, poorly funded, underprivileged part Gotham.

It still shows the audience that they share a strong bond as father and son and Thomas is
planting the seed of heroism in Bruce.

Bruce sees the last thing he and his father were doing was cheering on a man dressed in black,
wearing a cape and helping the less fortunate. It would make sense for Bruce to want to adopt
this vigilante mission if nothing more than to relive the moment right before the tragedy. And
maybe, just maybe, he could be the figure in a black cape for another family that stands a
chance at growing old together.

3 Reply Award Share

The_Superhoo • 5 mo. ago •

Indifference. It was fine

2 Reply Award Share

Minecraftfinn • 5 mo. ago •

I don't like it. Zorro is such a great way to showcase the inspiration behind Bruce's otherwise insane idea
of dressing in a mask to fight criminals.

2 Reply Award Share

Busy_Illustrator9103 • 5 mo. ago •

I remember an interview with one of the producers of Batman Begins stating that they would have used
Zorro for this scene but Warner Bros. couldn’t get the copyright from Sony or ZPI at the time.

2 Reply Award Share

1 more reply

batbobby82 • 5 mo. ago •

I liked it. Little different, being an opera instead of a movie (did you know that the Zorro element only
dates back to The Dark Knight Returns in 1986?), but perfectly plays into the Wayne murders and Bruce's
perceived responsibility in the matter. Not to mention providing the basis for the "fear" theme of the
entire film.

I definitely wouldn't change it.

2 Reply Award Share

[deleted] • 5 mo. ago •

Yeah, Mefistófeles, a 5 act play about a man who sells his soul to the devil to regain his youth MAKES
WAY MORE SENSE than zorro; a movie about a boy who sees his father killed and swear vengeance, and
thus becomes a masked animal themed vigilante by night, while pretending to be a drunk philanthropist
by day. /s

I think it would have worked better if they kept ran al ghoul’s immortality a thing in the movie, but
otherwise it’s nonsense.

No child wants to go see a 4 HOUR ITALIAN PLAY Over a two and a half action movie

2 Reply Award Share

Spiff76 • 5 mo. ago •

Should have seen “Der Fledermaus”

2 Reply Award Share

RaveniteGaming • 5 mo. ago •

A bit on the nose with the bat symbolism but it was fine.

3 Reply Award Share

Choirboye • 5 mo. ago •

It’s Die Fledermaus.

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Choirboye • 5 mo. ago •

https://www.latimes.com/la-et-mn-christopher-nolan-3-20081029-story.html

2 Reply Award Share

GodEmperorOfHell • 5 mo. ago •

So, the last Zorro movie in theaters was 2005's The Legend of Zorro. So, how old would a Batman
inspired by that version be?

1 Reply Award Share

I_hate_myself069 • 5 mo. ago •

Bruce was 8 when he lost his parents, so he'd be 27 in 2024. That's about his mid years, when he's
already experienced hero, but not at the level of the veteran he is today. Basically Jason Todd era.

3 Reply Award Share

MichaelXennial • 5 mo. ago •

Idk the vampire parallels seem obvious to me. Why would criminals be afraid of a giant regular bat?
How would they not immediately assume it’s a vampire?

I guess mothman is a real life parallel. He got the same name treatment

1 Reply Award Share

FemmeWizard • 5 mo. ago •

It was alright. I much prefer they go see Zorro but at the end of the day it's not really that important what
they go see.

1 Reply Award Share

unshavedmouse • 5 mo. ago •

Didn't like it. Make it a double bill Zorro and Nosferatu.

1 Reply Award Share

Kite_Wing129 • 5 mo. ago •

I prefer Zorro.

1 Reply Award Share

blatblatbat • 5 mo. ago •

Makes me wonder if they had seen the Book of Mormon what would my favorite super here look like

1 Reply Award Share