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Discovering Diverse Content Through
Random Scribd Documents
 Mr. Crafard. He said, wait until they opened before I put it up. He
said something like “Let those damn fools open if they want”, or
something to that effect, or “Stay open”, or something like that.
Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any other instructions?
Mr. Crafard. That was about it. He asked me where I was going
to eat and I told him and he said something about he’d call me in
about an hour. He said to go ahead and eat then and he said “I’ll call
you in about an hour.”
So he called me—I don’t even remember what he said then. It
was just I guess he asked me if there had been any phone calls or
something. It wasn’t much. The conversation wasn’t but about a
dozen words at most.
Mr. Hubert. Had there been any phone calls?
Mr. Crafard. No; not while I was at the club. I waited until about
30 minutes after he left and then I went to eat.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you eat?
Mr. Crafard. To the drugstore, Walgreen Drugstore.
Mr. Hubert. You ate alone?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You came back to the club?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; that’s right.
Mr. Hubert. What time was it when you got back?
Mr. Crafard. It must have been about 6:20 or 6:30, something
like that, I guess—a little later.
Mr. Hubert. When did you next hear from Ruby or see him?
Mr. Crafard. I never saw him again until the next morning. He
called me from Eva’s, talked with me for a few minutes, about an
hour after he left. I just got back from eating.
Mr. Hubert. How do you know he was at Eva’s?
 Mr. Crafard. He said he was at Eva’s, and then I could hear her
voice. They was watching on television.
Mr. Hubert. What was the subject of that conversation?
Mr. Crafard. So far as I can recall, he just asked me if there had
been any calls, as far as I can recall.
Mr. Hubert. And you simply told him no?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Did he ask you about the sign?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I told him I had it ready and he made sure, he
told me again what time—not to put it up until after about 7:30 or a
quarter to eight.
Mr. Hubert. How long did that conversation last?
Mr. Crafard. It was just a very few minutes. It couldn’t have been
more than two dozen words spoken at the most.
Mr. Hubert. Did he give you any indication as to what his plans
were?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did he say anything about going to church?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall. I think he said something
about I could reach him at Eva’s if I needed him for anything, I think
he said.
Mr. Hubert. And this you think was between 6:15 and 6:30, or
long in there?
Mr. Crafard. I prefer to say between 6:30 and 7.
Mr. Hubert. What did you do with the rest of the day?
Mr. Crafard. I stayed at the club and watched it on television.
Mr. Hubert. You were alone?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
 Mr. Hubert. Nobody else came at all?
Mr. Crafard. No. The door was locked downstairs, nobody could
get up.
Mr. Hubert. Did you put up the sign?
Mr. Crafard. I waited until about a quarter to eight before I put
up the sign.
Mr. Hubert. Were the other clubs open?
Mr. Crafard. I believe they were closed too. I am not sure. I am
not positive about that.
Mr. Hubert. Any phone calls come at all the rest of the evening?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall.
Mr. Hubert. You were there alone that night?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You just watched television until you went to bed?
Mr. Crafard. I watched television for quite a while. I watched
television most of the afternoon. It seemed like the more I watched
it, the worse it made me feel, in a way, so I just quit watching it. I
had a couple of books there and I read most of the afternoon and
the evening.
Mr. Hubert. What time did you go to bed?
Mr. Crafard. I must have went to bed probably about 9 or 9:30,
something like that.
Mr. Hubert. And there were no phone calls?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can recall. I believe there was—about
midnight I believe it was, there was a call. I don’t even know why
this girl called. I don’t even know why she called. I talked to her for
a few minutes and then I took the phone out of the office. It had a
big long cord on it and I carried it in by my bed. I stretched out on
the bed and we talked for quite a long time.
 Mr. Hubert. Who was the girl?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t even remember her name. I had never met
her before or ever heard from her again.
Mr. Hubert. Who did she say she was?
Mr. Crafard. She give me her name. I don’t remember what her
name was.
Mr. Hubert. What did she say her business was, why did she call?
Mr. Crafard. I think she said something about wanting a job with
the club or something.
Mr. Hubert. It was not a girl that worked at the club in any way?
Mr. Crafard. No; she was not connected with the club.
Mr. Hubert. Do you think she did identify herself?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I know she identified herself.
Mr. Hubert. But you don’t remember who she was?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. You had never seen her before?
Mr. Crafard. No. I had never met the girl.
Mr. Hubert. You didn’t recognize the name?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did you recognize the voice?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. As far as you could say then this was a complete
stranger to you?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you speak to her?
Mr. Crafard. Oh, we must have talked altogether for about an
hour, an hour and a half, and then hung up, and about 15 or 20
minutes she called back and talked for a couple of hours.
Mr. Hubert. Now you talked to this girl for a total of about 3
hours that night?
Mr. Crafard. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. What was it all about?
Mr. Crafard. Just more or less talking, getting acquainted. More
than anything over the phone, the best I could.
Mr. Hubert. Did she indicate where she was?
Mr. Crafard. She was baby sitting for a friend of hers. She give
me to understand she was to catch a bus out of town the next
morning, about 5:30.
Mr. Hubert. In the course of the conversation did you try to find
out why she had called the Carousel?
Mr. Crafard. She called, she said, to start with, when we first
started talking, she had called to find out about a job in the club. I
don’t know why she done it that way—that is what she said, as far
as I can recall.
Mr. Hubert. Was she aware that the President was dead?
Mr. Crafard. Yes: I believe we discussed that a little bit too. T
don’t recall what was said.
Mr. Hubert. The first time you spoke to her, you said it was about
midnight—right?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You had been asleep?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I had just started dozing off when the
phone rang.
Mr. Hubert. And you spoke to her then about an hour?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I believe—I’m not sure—I think Little Lynn
called.
 Mr. Hubert. What time did she call?
Mr. Crafard. Just the one time that I can recall.
Mr. Hubert. What time?
Mr. Crafard. I believe that was about 9:30 or 10 o’clock.
Mr. Hubert. What did she say?
Mr. Crafard. After I laid down.
Mr. Hubert. What did she want?
Mr. Crafard. She wanted to talk to Jack.
Mr. Hubert. Did she tell you what about?
Mr. Crafard. No; she just said it was urgent. I believe I told her
Jack was at Eva’s and give her Eva’s number.
Mr. Hubert. Where was she?
Mr. Crafard. She was at her home in Fort Worth, as I understood.
Mr. Hubert. Is that a long-distance call?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Any other workers, waitresses or girls come in that
night?
Mr. Crafard. No, none. Jack had had Andy call all of them to tell
them not to come in.
Mr. Hubert. Now when you ended the conversation with this girl
that began about midnight, was there an arrangement for one or the
other of you to call up again in a few minutes?
Mr. Crafard. No; I told her I’d like to talk to her again. I told her
I’d like to meet her. I told her I’d like to get acquainted with her. I
tried to get her to talk a little longer. She said she had to hang up.
And then she called me back 15 or 20 minutes later.
Mr. Hubert. And then you continued to talk for a couple of hours?
 Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. How did that end up?
Mr. Crafard. Some one of the younger kids there woke up or
something.
Mr. Hubert. Had you made any arrangement to meet her, to see
her?
Mr. Crafard. No; no definite arrangements. I tried to get her to
tell me what bus station she was leaving out of. She wouldn’t even
tell me what bus station she was leaving out of. I told her I’d meet
her before she caught the bus, but she wouldn’t tell me where she
was leaving.
Mr. Hubert. This conversation in fact, Larry, was kind of a love
making on the phone deal, wasn’t it?
Mr. Crafard. More or less what you might say an attempt.
Mr. Hubert. And part of that attempt of course would be trying to
find out who she was and where you could meet her, wouldn’t it?
Mr. Crafard. Who she was and where I could meet her at her
likes and her dislikes, such as that.
Mr. Hubert. She wouldn’t tell you any of that?
Mr. Crafard. No, she wouldn’t tell me where I could meet her at
or anything, but other than we really talked as if we known each
other for months, actually.
Mr. Hubert. You didn’t write down her name, Larry?
Mr. Crafard. I think I wrote her name down, but I never could
get her phone number.
Mr. Hubert. Where did you write it down?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I wrote it down in that notebook I had. I’m
not sure. I don’t have her name now. I never had her name after I
left Texas, I know that.
 Mr. Griffin. Would you recognize that name in the notebook?
Mr. Crafard. I’m not even sure of that.
Mr. Hubert. We will have an opportunity.
Mr. Griffin. Did she sound like a young girl? How old a person
was she?
Mr. Crafard. I believe she said she was 19, 18 or 19 years old.
Mr. Hubert. She told you, didn’t she, that she had to be at the
bus station at 5 o’clock?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was 5, 5:30 or 6 o’clock.
Mr. Hubert. There is only one bus station there, isn’t there?
Mr. Crafard. Two bus stations, Trailways and Greyhound.
Mr. Hubert. Did you find out which one?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. She wouldn’t tell you that?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did she tell you what time the bus was going to
leave?
Mr. Crafard. I think she said something about she had to leave
where she was at 5:30 or 6 o’clock to catch the bus.
Mr. Hubert. To catch the bus?
Mr. Crafard. To catch the bus.
Mr. Hubert. To go where?
Mr. Crafard. I think she said she was going to Chicago.
Mr. Hubert. Did you try to find out what buses from either station
were leaving around that time?
Mr. Crafard. No; I didn’t call the bus depots or anything. I wasn’t
that interested in it.
 Mr. Hubert. Well, you were interested enough in her to talk with
her for 3 hours. I wondered if you weren’t interested enough to find
out if you couldn’t meet her by going to one of the bus stations.
Mr. Crafard. She talked—she was leaving town and didn’t figure
on being back for quite a little while.
Mr. Hubert. When did she tell you that?
Mr. Crafard. Shortly after we started—I believe just shortly before
we finished the conversation I started to find out where to meet her
at.
Mr. Hubert. Which was it? What killed your interest? Is that what
you are trying to tell us?
Mr. Crafard. I figured she was leaving town, there wasn’t no
sense in going to too much trouble to try and meet her if she was
leaving town and wasn’t figuring on being back.
First, she talked like she was going to be gone for the weekend,
and then just shortly before we finished the conversation, she give
me to understand that she would be gone on a prolonged, for a
prolonged period of time.
Mr. Hubert. So this girl then, who was going for a long period of
time, you suggest was willing to talk with you for 3 hours and the
conversation, the general tenor of which was sort of love making on
the phone, as it were?
Mr. Crafard. As you would put it; yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did you find out or try to find out her phone number?
Mr. Crafard. I asked for her—I tried to get her phone number
where she was at. I tried to get her home phone number. I tried to
get her address. She wouldn’t.
Mr. Hubert. She wouldn’t give you any of that?
Mr. Crafard. No.
 Mr. Hubert. Can you give us any idea what subject you could
possibly have talked about for that length of time?
Mr. Crafard. Mostly we discussed our different hobbies, our likes
and dislikes. Like I say, the conversation was more as if we had
known each other for 2 or 3 weeks or better.
Mr. Hubert. You must have made more than one effort to try to
get her phone number and her address.
Mr. Crafard. Several times I tried.
Mr. Hubert. What reason did she ascribe for not giving it to you?
Mr. Crafard. She said she was at a neighbor’s place. She was
babysitting for some friends of hers.
Mr. Hubert. Yes; but you had asked her for her home address as
well?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Her home phone?
Mr. Crafard. She just wouldn’t give me any reason for not giving
me her home phone number that I can recall.
Mr. Hubert. Let’s see, that means that she was a person who was
going out of town and did not want to talk to you any more, and
didn’t want to give you her number.
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Or where you could reach her?
Mr. Crafard. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. But she spoke to you for 3 hours?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Larry, when she called did she ask for anyone in
particular?
Mr. Crafard. She asked if it was the Carousel.
 Mr. Griffin. And then what did she say?
Mr. Crafard. And I said yes, and I asked her if there was
something I could do for her. I believe she said she had called in
answer to an ad in the paper.
Mr. Griffin. Was there an ad in the paper?
Mr. Crafard. Ruby continuously run an ad for girls. After I got to
talking to her—it’s kind of funny as all get-out—getting ready to
leave town the next morning and then calling in in response to this
ad.
Mr. Griffin. I take it you got the impression after talking with her
for a while that she really hadn’t called in response to that ad.
Mr. Crafard. I got the impression she was kind of a kook, in a
way. I have known of girls to do this, call up strange people and talk
to them as long as the person will talk to them.
Mr. Hubert. Do you do that too?
Mr. Crafard. No; I have never done that, not that way.
Mr. Hubert. So it was not your normal way of doing?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. And it was the middle of the night, Larry?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Why do you think you did that?
Mr. Crafard. Just talked to her, somebody to talk to. I wasn’t
sleepy. Somebody to talk to more than anything.
Mr. Hubert. You see the point—that that would be a story that
would be much easier to accept if the time element was not present.
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I understand.
Mr. Hubert. You must admit it is rather extraordinary for two
strangers to speak as long as you did on two separate occasions
when apparently there was no particular purpose about it, and no
particular future to it.
Mr. Crafard. I can’t explain it.
Mr. Hubert. Did she indicate that she was somebody with the
Carousel operation, what it was like?
Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. Hubert. Did she say what she wanted to do there, what kind
of a job she wanted?
Mr. Crafard. It was a job for waitresses was what he run all the
time.
Mr. Hubert. Did she mention that is what she was applying for?
Mr. Crafard. She mentioned the fact that she was calling in
connection with the ad.
Mr. Hubert. Well, you must have asked her what she looked like.
Mr. Crafard. Oh, yes; I asked her for a general description of
herself, measurements and weight.
Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us what she said?
Mr. Crafard. As far as I can recall, she give me her general height
and weight, color of her eyes, her hair.
Mr. Hubert. What was all that?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall.
Mr. Hubert. You mean you don’t remember whether she was a
blonde or a brunette?
Mr. Crafard. I believe she said she had brown hair.
Mr. Hubert. Then you do recall about that?
Mr. Crafard. I think that is what she said. I am not sure.
Mr. Hubert. What about her height? What mental impression did
you form as to what sort of a person she must look like?
 Mr. Crafard. From the description she give me, I figured she
must be a fairly nice looking girl.
Mr. Hubert. I judged that you had that impression. Did she have
a good figure?
Mr. Crafard. If I recall right, she more than likely must have had.
That is about 90 percent of a girl’s looks anyway.
Mr. Hubert. What is that?
Mr. Crafard. I figure that is about 90 percent of a girl’s looks,
physical looks, is her figure.
Mr. Hubert. You mean you are attentive to that sort of thing?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; like any other man.
Mr. Hubert. I am not critical. It brings me back to the point that
you said you didn’t remember what she looked like. I suggest
perhaps that you do. It is a little bit more than you are telling us.
Mr. Crafard. I figured that she must have been a pretty nice—had
a pretty decent figure from her description and everything, or I
wouldn’t have thought she was a fairly good looking girl if she hadn’t
give a pretty good description of her figure. But as far as the
measurements, I can’t remember the exact measurements or
anything like that.
Mr. Hubert. But she was a brunette and she had a good figure.
Did she say anything about her weight?
Mr. Crafard. She must have been fairly light. It seemed attractive
to me because I like a smaller female. It must have been about 100
or 105, something like that. But I don’t remember the exact weight
or anything.
Mr. Hubert. But you do remember that the weight was attractive
to you?
Mr. Crafard. It must have been light.
 Mr. Hubert. And therefore it was light. Are there any other
preferences of yours that would help us to determine that she told
you?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I can think of, other than a good figure and
a fairly decent height.
Mr. Hubert. How did she describe her face?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t really remember how she described her face,
it has been so blasted long ago.
Mr. Hubert. When the first part of this conversation ended, did
she tell you she was going to call you back?
Mr. Crafard. I believe I said something to her about calling me
back if she got the chance, or something.
Mr. Hubert. Did she say why she had to end the conversation, the
first conversation?
Mr. Crafard. I think she said something about the kids she was
babysitting with, or something.
Mr. Hubert. You mean that she had to attend to them?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And that she had to end the conversation?
Mr. Crafard. To tell you the truth what I thought, I kind of had
the idea all the way through it sounded to me like it was a bunch of
older guys and gals in the background giggling all the time. It seems
to me like it was a dare they had put her up to just to see how long
a person would talk to her, or something.
Mr. Hubert. Then there were people?
Mr. Crafard. It sounded like.
Mr. Hubert. Other than babies?
Mr. Crafard. She kept saying she was babysitting with these kids
and that was all that was there was these young kids.
 Mr. Hubert. But you heard adults in the background?
Mr. Crafard. It sounded to me like it was at least teenagers, kids
at least in their midteens, if not older, and I kind of had the idea that
they had probably put her up to a dare.
Mr. Hubert. And you were willing to go along with that?
Mr. Crafard. Sure; why not? I would probably never see her.
Mr. Hubert. And you haven’t?
Mr. Crafard. No; not that I know of.
Mr. Hubert. Let’s put it this way: You may have met some girls
since then, but in any case those that you have met have not
identified themselves or become identified with that girl?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. That would take us until about 3 o’clock in the
morning wouldn’t it?
Mr. Crafard. Right about that; yes.
Mr. Hubert. Were you asleep?
Mr. Crafard. I think I dozed off about then, and by then this call
came from Jack.
Mr. Hubert. What time was that?
Mr. Crafard. That must have been between 3:30 and 3:45, I
guess.
Mr. Hubert. How long after the call with the girl?
Mr. Crafard. It wasn’t but about—it couldn’t have been more than
a half hour.
Mr. Hubert. Did Jack indicate that he had been trying to get you
but the line had been busy?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. What did he want?
 Mr. Crafard. He wanted me to get dressed to meet him
downstairs with the camera, Polaroid Land camera, with extra films
and extra bulbs.
Mr. Hubert. That is the camera you told us was previously used
for taking the pictures of customers?
Mr. Crafard. Taking the pictures of what?
Mr. Hubert. Of customers.
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did he ask you whether you knew how to operate
that camera?
Mr. Crafard. I think there had been some discussion about the
camera on a couple—on a previous occasion about it.
Mr. Hubert. As a matter of fact, you had operated it?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I had operated it at the club a couple of times.
Mr. Hubert. He knew you had?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; I think there was something said a couple of
nights before, something about it.
Mr. Hubert. You had taken pictures of the customers, as you
frequently did, to give them as they danced with the girls? And he
knew that you had done that?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, see; yea, he knew that I had done it.
Mr. Hubert. Did he ask you if you knew how to operate one?
Mr. Crafard. He asked me if I knew how to change the film, that
is what it was. I told him yes.
Mr. Hubert. So what happened then?
Mr. Crafard. So I went ahead and got dressed. I had just got
dressed and got the film and bulbs and was starting to get the
camera when this guy from the garage called up and told me Jack
was downstairs and wanted me to hurry. So I went out downstairs
and got in the car.
Mr. Hubert. Who was the guy from the garage?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember what his name was.
Mr. Hubert. A white man?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was a white boy.
Mr. Hubert. White woman?
Mr. Crafard. White man.
Mr. Hubert. White man. Did he telephone you or come up?
Mr. Crafard. He telephoned up. He couldn’t have come up. The
door was locked.
Mr. Hubert. So Jack was there?
Mr. Crafard. Outside in the car when I went down, Jack and
George Senator.
Mr. Hubert. How long was that after you had spoken to Jack?
Mr. Crafard. It couldn’t have been more than a half hour at the
most, because I hadn’t much more than got dressed when he called
from upstairs.
Mr. Hubert. As I understood it, about a half hour after you
finished talking to the girl you were just about dozing when Jack
called?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And said he would be right down?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. You got up and dressed?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. You fetched the camera?
 Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. And the bulbs and the film?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you load the camera then?
Mr. Crafard. The camera was loaded.
Mr. Hubert. It was already loaded?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did he know that?
Mr. Crafard. He knew it was loaded but nobody had any idea
exactly how many—we didn’t know for sure how many pictures were
left in it.
Mr. Hubert. Did you take some extra film?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. It was all there?
Mr. Crafard. A roll of extra film.
Mr. Hubert. All of that wouldn’t take a half hour, would it?
Mr. Crafard. I washed up, I imagine, before I got dressed. I
usually did.
Mr. Hubert. Did he tell you where you were going?
Mr. Crafard. Not until after we went out there. We took off and I
said, “Where are we going?” He didn’t say anything. He went on out
there.
Mr. Hubert. When he called by telephone the first time did he tell
you where he was?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t know for sure. I don’t remember whether he
did or not.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know where he was?
 Mr. Crafard. I took it for granted he was at the home as far as I
figured.
Mr. Hubert. Was there anything that you now recall that would
help you remember as to whether he was calling from home or not?
Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. Hubert. So in fact you really don’t know where he was?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Did you think it was as much as a half hour after he
called that you got the call from the garageman to come down?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. And he and Senator were in the car?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. Senator was in front?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; Jack and Senator were both in front.
Mr. Hubert. You got in the back?
Mr. Crafard. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. And you drove off?
Mr. Crafard. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. It is at that time I think you said you asked him what
this was all about?
Mr. Crafard. I think I said something about where are we going.
Mr. Hubert. What did he say?
Mr. Crafard. He said “I want you to take some pictures.”
Mr. Hubert. And did you ask him where?
Mr. Crafard. He was driving then.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ask him of what?
 Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall if I asked him about what or not. I
think him and Senator were talking.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember what they were talking about?
Mr. Crafard. Something about an ad, I think an ad, a sign or
something like that. When we got out there, it was “Impeach Earl
Warren” sign at the corner of the North Central Expressway.
Mr. Hubert. And what?
Mr. Crafard. North Central and Hall, I believe it is.
Mr. Griffin. Would you describe this intersection that you think
that you took this sign—
Mr. Crafard. It was just like most of the expressway intersections
are. Around—come around under this bridge under an overcrossing
and a road into the side here, and another one comes square into it
here over the other side of the bridge. It was a building set in here.
Mr. Hubert. Let me ask you this: How do you know it was the
North Expressway and Hall?
Mr. Crafard. The sign on the corner.
Mr. Hubert. You saw the sign that said that?
Mr. Crafard. Yes. We parked right beside the sign.
Mr. Hubert. And you have no questions about your memory on
that? It was next to a sign saying North Expressway?
Mr. Crafard. It was on the North Central Expressway. I believe it
was the North Central and Hall.
Mr. Hubert. You parked by the sign which designated both
streets?
Mr. Crafard. I believe—yes; I believe that was the name of the
streets. I am not sure of the side street, but I believe it was Hall.
Mr. Griffin. You drove out of town from the Carousel Club. Did
you drive north on the North Central Expressway?
 Mr. Crafard. I don’t know which way. I don’t even know exactly
which way the North Central Expressway runs.
Mr. Griffin. Let me ask you this: This overpass that was near the
intersection, did you go under the overpass before you got to the
sign?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. Now the sign, was that located facing traffic that
comes into town or traffic that goes out of town?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was facing traffic coming into town; I am
not sure.
Mr. Griffin. And was there a place to park near that sign?
Mr. Crafard. On a side street that I believe is Hall.
Mr. Griffin. Could you pull off what you believe to be Hall Street,
could you pull off the road at that point and drive right up next to
the sign?
Mr. Crafard. There was a curb up—you would have to go over
the curb to do so, I believe. I think we parked along the curb here
and got out and walked across this open, small open space to the
building the sign was on.
Mr. Griffin. How large was the sign?
Mr. Crafard. It was I think about 3-foot long and about the same
height, 3 or 4 foot.
Mr. Griffin. And what kind of a standard or support was it on?
Mr. Crafard. It was on a building.
Mr. Griffin. It was actually plastered on a building?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Griffin. About how high up on the building was it?
Mr. Crafard. I’d say about 5 or 6 foot.
 Mr. Hubert. How many pictures did you take?
Mr. Crafard. I took three photographs.
Mr. Hubert. Were those instantaneous print pictures?
Mr. Crafard. Yes; 10-second Polaroid.
Mr. Hubert. After you had finished taking them, what happened?
Mr. Crafard. We got back in the car and went back into town to
one of those cafes and had coffee.
Mr. Hubert. What is the name of the cafe?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember the name of the cafe. I could take
a person right to it, but I can’t tell you the name.
Mr. Hubert. How far away was it from the Carousel?
Mr. Crafard. About 2½ blocks.
Mr. Hubert. Which way?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it would be south.
Mr. Hubert. What was it, on Commerce Street?
Mr. Crafard. It was half a block off Commerce, two blocks down
Commerce and half a block off.
Mr. Hubert. Was Senator with you then?
Mr. Crafard. Yes, the three of us were together. We went in and
had coffee, and I believe Jack showed the pictures to the man there
in the cafe.
Mr. Hubert. What did Jack say about the pictures at any time,
commencing from the time you took them till——
Mr. Crafard. There was some reference made between the
address on the pictures and the address on an ad he had saw in the
paper.
Mr. Hubert. Who made that reference?
 Mr. Crafard. Ruby made the reference.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the context of the reference, what
the idea was contained in his reference?
Mr. Crafard. The fact that there was quite a similarity—he said
something about the numbers were the same when turned around a
little bit.
Mr. Hubert. You mean that the numbers——
Mr. Crafard. In the address.
Mr. Hubert. The numbers in the address of the sign of which you
had taken a picture were similar to those in an advertisement of
some sort?
Mr. Crafard. As far as I could understand, a hate advertisement
that he had saw in the paper.
Mr. Hubert. Did he have that hate advertisement with him?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I know of.
Mr. Hubert. Did he express his thoughts as to what he proposed
to do with those pictures?
Mr. Crafard. He said something about going down to the post
office and checking this box number to see who had a box number, a
certain box, or something.
Mr. Hubert. Other than that, did he mention what he wanted the
pictures for?
Mr. Crafard. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. Hubert. How long did you stay in the cafe?
Mr. Crafard. We was there long enough to drink coffee, and that
is about it.
Mr. Hubert. That would be about how many minutes?
Mr. Crafard. Oh, maybe 20 or 25 minutes.
 Mr. Hubert. Where did you go next?
Mr. Crafard. Then they took me over to the Carousel Club and
dropped me off at the Carousel Club.
Mr. Hubert. What time was that?
Mr. Crafard. This was about 5, maybe 5:20. I’d say between 5
and 5:30.
Mr. Hubert. What did you do next?
Mr. Crafard. I went back upstairs and put the camera up.
Mr. Hubert. And then what?
Mr. Crafard. I think I picked up a book and read another book or
something.
Mr. Hubert. Did you go to sleep?
Mr. Crafard. Read a book or something.
Mr. Hubert. Did you go to sleep?
Mr. Crafard. I wasn’t sleepy at that time.
Mr. Hubert. I said did you go to sleep?
Mr. Crafard. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. Hubert. What is the next thing that happened?
Mr. Crafard. About 8:30, I think it was, I called Jack. When I had
been with them I said something about dogfood, and Jack had said
he’d bring some back, so I called him about 8:30 and said—I guess I
woke him up or something. He was fairly shook up over the phone
and chewed me out a little bit about waking him up at that time in
the morning.
Mr. Hubert. Had you ever wakened him up at that time before?
Mr. Crafard. No; I had never called him before in the morning,
like that.
Mr. Hubert. What made you do so on this occasion?
 Mr. Crafard. He wanted me to be sure and feed the dogs, and I
didn’t have any dogfood to feed them. He was usually up by that
time in the morning, the way he talked. He said he always got up at
7 o’clock every morning, and I called him, figured when he did come
down he could bring dogfood down.
Mr. Hubert. You expressed two thoughts a little while ago. I want
to, there again, get the factual basis for those thoughts or
impressions. One, that he was shook up, and the other that he
chewed you out. Those are both impressions that are based upon
facts. What were the facts?
Mr. Crafard. Well, the way he answered the phone, he was kind
of teed off, you know, sort of teed off. He answered the phone in a
grumpy way. He had never spoke to me on the phone that way
before.
Mr. Hubert. What did he say?
Mr. Crafard. He just give me the daylights for calling him.
Mr. Hubert. How did he give you the daylights?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember what he said exactly.
Mr. Hubert. Did he curse?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t believe so.
Mr. Hubert. Did he say that you were stupid? Did he use some
words that you didn’t like, that gave you the impression he was mad
at you?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t remember what he said, sir.
Mr. Hubert. But, in any case, whatever words they were, they
were not polite?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. Shall I put it that way?
Mr. Crafard. It was his general way of speaking to me, more like
—he talked to me more like he always did with Andy, when he was
mad with Andy, when he was bawling Andy out for something.
Mr. Hubert. Was it the tone of voice more than the actual words?
Mr. Crafard. I believe it was both. One thing his voice was very
loud, and he knew how that grated on me.
Mr. Hubert. He had talked to you like that before?
Mr. Crafard. On one occasion, and I had stopped him. I told him
I didn’t like it. I told him if he wanted to talk to me, to talk to me,
not to yell at me.
Mr. Hubert. How long ago had that been before?
Mr. Crafard. Just shortly after I went to work for him.
Mr. Hubert. And he had never done it since?
Mr. Crafard. No.
Mr. Hubert. But he did do it on this occasion?
Mr. Crafard. That is right.
Mr. Hubert. You also said that he seemed shook up, I think, or
what were the words you used there?
Mr. Griffin. That are used?
Mr. Hubert. No; that he used.
Mr. Griffin. I think he said “shook up.”
Mr. Crafard. I believe I did.
Mr. Hubert. And that he had chewed you out. I had asked you for
a separate basis of facts for both of those, both of those mental
impressions you got. Is your explanation intended to cover both of
them?
Mr. Crafard. About the only thing I could figure, it would be the
same for the other.
Mr. Hubert. As I gather it then——
 Mr. Crafard. He was shook up, mad.
Mr. Hubert. He was mad at you?
Mr. Crafard. That is what I believe I was using the term “shook
up” to mean.
Mr. Hubert. He was mad at you and he chewed you out.
Mr. Crafard. That’s right.
Mr. Hubert. Did he mention anything about the President?
Mr. Crafard. I don’t recall.
Mr. Hubert. Was it simply that here was a man who had been
asleep and who had been wakened and he was mad because
somebody had wakened him up?
Mr. Crafard. It could have been. That is what I took it as.
Mr. Hubert. That is what you took it as?
Mr. Crafard. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. He used the tone of voice with you that he had used
once before which you didn’t like, and you told him about?
Mr. Crafard. He said something else. I don’t remember what it
was he said.
Mr. Hubert. What was it like?
Mr. Crafard. How’s that?
Mr. Hubert. What was it like in addition to this? Was it something
particularly more aggravating to you?
Mr. Crafard. I would think it was pertaining to the President or
something there. I don’t remember what it was.
Mr. Hubert. Well, pass it. Perhaps we will come back to it in a
little while. How long did that conversation last, about?
Mr. Crafard. Maybe 5 minutes at the most.
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