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 Another Random Document on
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The World:—We will be pleased to hear the Apostle's evidence.

PAUL'S TESTIMONY.

The World:—Paul, did you teach the people that water baptism was
practiced by the Israelites before the days of John the Baptist?

Paul:—I did. Water baptism is one of the ordinances of the Gospel—the

true Gospel, which embraces one Lord, one faith and one baptism. That
Gospel was preached to the people in the days of Abraham; and also to the
Israelites under Moses. Have you not read what I wrote to the Galatians, the
Hebrews and the Corinthians concerning this matter? I quote from my
epistles: "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen
through faith, preached before the Gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee
shall all nations be blessed." (Gal. 3: 8.) "For unto us was the Gospel
preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them,
not being mixed with faith in them that heard it." (Heb. 4: 2.) "Moreover,
brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers
were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized
unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea." (I Cor. 10: 1, 2.)

The World:—Paul, you have clearly proved the antiquity of baptism. We

will excuse you for the present.

Latter-day Saints:—We can prove to you beyond the possibility of doubt

that water baptism is essential to man's salvation. As you know, nearly all
the Christian sects believe in and practice some form of baptism, but, with
two or three exceptions, none of them believe that that ordinance aids, even
in the slightest degree, in the salvation of the souls of men. This is a
mistake. Baptism is one of the first ordinances of the Gospel, and is as
essential to man's salvation as any other ordinance that God has ever
revealed.

The World:—We are ready to hear your witnesses on this matter.

Latter-day Saints:—The first witness that we will introduce is John the

Baptist.
 TESTIMONY OF JOHN.

The World:—Your name is John?

John:—It is.

The World:—You told us on a former occasion that you were called of God
to go before Christ and prepare His way.

John:—That is correct. You will find it so recorded in John's Gospel. (John

1: 6.)

The World:—What did God command you to preach to the people?

John:—Repentance and water baptism.

The World:—You say that God sent you to baptize with water?

John:—He did. It is recorded in the scriptures: "And I knew him not: but he
that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou
shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which
baptizeth with the Holy Ghost." (John 1: 33.)

The World:—What did you tell the people was the object of water baptism?

John:—I told them that it was for the remission of sins. Mark and Luke bear
me witness. The former says: "John did baptize in the wilderness, and
preach the baptism of repentance for the remissions of sins." (Mark 1: 4.)
Luke says: "And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the
baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." (Luke 3: 3.)

The World:—After what manner did you baptize?

John:—As I was commanded by the Lord—by immersion. I took the

repentant believers down to the river Jordan, and there I baptized them by
immersing them in the water.

The World:—Then you do not believe in infant sprinkling?

John:—I do not. It is contrary to the teaching of Christ and His Apostles.
There was but one form of baptism known to them, that was baptism by
immersion for the remission of sins. On one occasion when people applied
to me for baptism, I had to take them to Aenon, near to Salim, "because
there was much water there." (John 3: 23.) Had I considered sprinkling just
as acceptable to God as immersion, I would not have taken the people to
Aenon to be baptized.

The World:—You baptized Jesus Christ?

John:—I did.

The World:—When Christ applied to you for baptism what did you say?

John:—I said, "I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?"
Then Jesus said to me, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to
fulfill all righteousness." (Matt. 3: 14, 15.)

The World:—You say that Christ requested you to baptize Him in order that
He might fulfill all righteousness?

John:—He did. And if the Son of God, being holy, had need to be baptized
with water that He might fulfill all righteousness, how much more need
have mortal men, they being unholy, to be baptized? According to the
words of the Savior a man cannot fulfill all righteousness if he fails to
comply with the ordinance of baptism. I told the Pharisees and lawyers that
they had rejected the counsel of God against themselves by not being
baptized. (Luke 7: 30.) And as it was in those days, so it is today—all those
who slight this command of the Lord, and refuse to be baptized by
immersion for the remission of their sins, will, like the Pharisees and
lawyers, reject the counsel of God against themselves.
The World:—The witness is excused. (To the Latter-day Saints.) When was
the method of baptism changed?

Latter-day Saints:—In the third century after Christ, in the case of a man
named Novatian. Gahan, a Catholic historian, writing of him, says: "Having
embraced the faith, he continued a catechumen, till, falling dangerously ill,
and his life being despaired of, he was baptized in bed, not by immersion,
which was then the usual method, but by infusion, or pouring on of water."

The World:—Who is your next witness?

Latter-day Saints:—Our next witness is the Jewish ruler Nicodemus.

TESTIMONY OF NICODEMUS.

The World:—Nicodemus, had you an interview with Christ?

Nicodemus:—I had. I called upon Him one night and said to Him, "Rabbi,
we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these
miracles that thou doest except God be with him." (John 3: 2.)

The World:—What did Christ say in reply?

Nicodemus:—He told me that I would have to be born again—born of

water and of the Spirit. He spoke most emphatically concerning this matter,
saying, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of
the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." (John 3: 5.)

The World:—What did you interpret the words "born of the water and of
the Spirit" to mean?

Nicodemus:—I interpreted them to mean the baptism of water and of the

Holy Spirit. Christ was born of the water and of the Spirit when He was
baptized; His disciples were born of the water and of the Spirit, and the
Savior declared that except a man receive this new birth he cannot enter the
Kingdom of God.
The World:—We have been taught that the water which Jesus spoke of was
the word of God.

Nicodemus:—He did not tell me that. I am sure that if Christ had meant the
word of God He would have said so. Christ did not say one thing and mean
another. Why should men put false sentiments into the mouth of the Son of
God? That you may see the absurdity of this interpretation which men have
put upon the words of Christ, I will make a few quotations from the
scriptures, substituting the words "word of God" for the word "water":
"And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the word of
God." "And John was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there were
much words of God there." "And he commanded the chariot to stand still:
and they went down both into the word of God. * * * And when they were
come up out of the word of God." u Then answered Peter, Can any man
forbid the word of God, that these should not be baptized." "That he might
sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of the word of God by the word."

The World:—This certainly makes the interpretation appear most absured.

But, do you consider water baptism essential to salvation?

Nicodemus:—I do, most assuredly. I am aware that this doctrine sounds as

strange to the people in these days as it did at first to me. But it is,
nevertheless, true. It was not Christ's doctrine, it was the doctrine of the
Father who had sent Him, and who had sent John also with a similar
message. "My doctrine is not mine," said the Savior, "but his that sent me.
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of
God, or whether I speak of myself." (John 7: 16, 17.) Again He said, "For I
have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a
commandment what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that
his commandment is life everlasting; whatsoever I speak, therefore, even as
the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12: 49, 50.) Therefore, when
Christ impressed upon me the necessity of a new birth, of the water and of
the Spirit, He taught me a commandment which He had received from His
Father, and which He said was life everlasting. I am surprised that anyone
possessed of ordinary intelligence could think for a moment that God, the
fountain of all truth and wisdom, would send His Son down to the earth to
teach the children of men ordinances which were not necessary for them to
observe. Nor can I think of anything more foolish than for Christ to send
out missionaries into the world to teach people to observe an ordinance,
which, when they had obeyed it, they were no better off than they were
before. How dare anyone charge the Almighty with such folly?

The World:—We have no further questions to ask the witness.

Latter-day Saints:—Our next witness is the Apostle Peter.

PETER'S TESTIMONY.

The World:—Were you commissioned by the Lord Jesus Christ to preach

His Gospel?

Peter:—I was. In sending His Apostles forth to preach the Gospel, the Lord
said unto them, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in
the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching
them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am
with you alway, even unto the end of the world." (Matt. 28: 19, 20.)

The World:—Baptism is, therefore, a commandment of the Lord?

Peter:—It is, and Christ has said, that he that breaks one of the least of His
commandments and teaches men to do so, the same shall be called the least
in the Kingdom of Heaven. (Matt. 5: 19.)

The World:—Do you believe water baptism to be essential to man's

salvation?

Peter:—I do. If it had not been so considered by Christ, He would not have
commanded us to preach it. Why send us out to tell people to observe an
ordinance of the Gospel which it mattered not with God whether they
observed or not? That would not give the Lord credit for possessing as
much intelligence as men; for no man among you would command his
servants to do a certain work when it mattered not whether it was done or
left undone. If baptism is not essential to salvation, then it was needless on
the part of Christ to command His Apostles to preach it. It was a waste of
time for us to do so, for while we were preaching baptism and
administering the ordinances we could have employed the time in preaching
principles which are essential to men's salvation. You will observe, Christ
told us to baptize the people in the name of the Father, and of the Son and
of the Holy Ghost. Now, do you think for a moment that we would have
used the names of the Holy Trinity in an ordinance in which there was no
profit? Did Christ not know that it was written in the Scriptures, "Thou shalt
not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, for the Lord will not hold
him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." If you say that baptism is not
essential to salvation, you make the Savior of the world a transgressor of
God's holy commandment, for what could be more vain than to use the
names of the Holy Trinity in an ordinance in which there were no virtue, no
salvation?

The World:—You, therefore, taught the people that it was necessary for
them to be baptized?

Peter:—I did. With the rest of the Apostles I stood up on the day of
Pentecost before a great multitude of people and declared unto them the
message of life and salvation which Christ had given us to deliver. We
spoke under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and thousands of people
were pricked in their hearts, and cried out saying, "Men and brethren, what
shall we do?"

The World:—What did you tell them?

Peter:—I said unto them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the
name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift
of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2: 38.) The same day three thousand souls were
added to the Church. There was a most devout man named Cornelius, who
resided in Caesarea, who prayed to God constantly and gave much alms to
the people. His prayers and alms came up as a memorial before God, and
He sent an angel to Cornelius to tell him to send for me to Joppa, and that I
would tell him words whereby he and his house should be saved. Now, you
will remember, that a short time previous to this I had taught thousands of
people baptism for the remission of sins. If I had taught them false doctrine
do you think the Lord would have sent an angel to Cornelius to advise him
to send for me to teach him the plan of salvation? I told Cornelius the same
things that I declared to the people on the day of Pentecost, and commanded
him and his household to be baptized in the name of the Lord. (Acts 10:
48.)

The World:—That is all, Peter.

Latter-day Saints:—We now submit for your consideration the testimony of

the Apostle Paul.

PAUL'S TESTIMONY.

The World:—What is your belief concerning water baptism?

Paul:—I believe and have taught that it is an essential ordinance of the

Gospel of Jesus Christ. When Jesus appeared to me on the way to
Damascus, He called me to repentance and told me to go into Damascus
and that I would there be told of all things that were commanded of me to
do. The Lord then instructed His servant Ananias to go to me and to tell me
to arise and be baptised and wash away my sins, calling on the name of the
Lord. (Acts 22: 16.) So, you see, baptism for the remission of sins is not my
doctrine, but the Lord's. So important is this ordinance in the sight of the
Eternal Father that He withheld the Holy Ghost from twelve devout
Ephesians until I had re-baptized them. They had been baptized previously,
but not by one holding authority from God, and so their baptism was not
valid in His sight. How dare I teach the children of men that baptism is not
essential to salvation when He who spake as never man spake had declared,
"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the
Kingdom of God."

The World:—We will excuse the witness.

Latter-day Saints:—We have adduced enough evidence to convince every

fair-minded person that water baptism is essential to his salvation. We have
shown that it was instituted by the Lord from the beginning of the world for
the remission of sins. The Israelites received the ordinance under the hands
of Moses, and were all baptized in the cloud and in the sea. John, the
forerunner of Messiah, was sent by God to preach baptism for the remission
of sins. He baptized multitudes of people in the river Jordan for the
remission of their sins. Christ the Son of God received baptism at the hands
of John in order that He, too, might fulfill all righteousness. Jesus told the
Jewish ruler that except a man were born of water and of the Spirit he could
not enter the Kingdom of God. He commanded His disciples to "Go and
teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son
and of the Holy Ghost." Peter, while preaching under the influence of the
Holy Ghost, told the people on the day of Pentecost to repent and be
baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins. The
Lord Himself sent Ananias to Saul of Tarsus to tell him to arise and be
baptised and wash away his sins. We preach the same doctrine that was
taught by Christ and His Apostles, and say unto you, "Repent and be
baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of
sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

VI.—THE HOLY GHOST.

The World (to the Latter-day Saints):—According to the doctrine of your

Church a man must be born of water and of the Spirit before he can enter
the Kingdom of God.

Latter-day Saints:—In this we simply reiterate what Jesus said to the

anxious Jewish ruler, Nicodemus. These are His words: "Verily, verily, I say
unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter
into the Kingdom of God." (John 3: 5.) These are the words of the Son of
God, and whenever He speaks all discussion should be closed.

The World:—You explained to us in the last examination that being born of

the water means being baptized in water: what are we to understand by
being born of the Spirit?

Latter-day Saints:—To be born of the Spirit means to be baptized with the

Holy Ghost. All men must receive these two baptisms before they can
become the sons of God. By being born of the flesh we become the sons of
men: by being born of the water and of the Spirit we become the sons of
God. We desire you to hear the testimony of John the Baptist on this
important matter.
 TESTIMONY OF JOHN THE BAPTIST.

The World:—John, you told us on two former occasions that you were sent
of God to prepare the way for His Only Begotten Son. What did you teach
the people they had to do in order to be accepted of the Lord and admitted
into His Kingdom?

John:—I told them that they would have to repent, and be baptized in water
for the remission of their sins. I promised the people that, if they would do
these things, when Christ would come He would baptize them with a higher
baptism—the baptism of the Holy Ghost and of fire. (Matt. 3: 11.)

The World:—You baptized the Christ?

John:—I did. The ordinance was performed in the river Jordan. As soon as
Jesus came up out of the water the heavens were opened and the Spirit of
God descended like a dove and rested upon Him, and then was heard the
voice of God out of heaven, saying, "Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I
am well pleased." (Mark 1: 9-11.) Thus was Jesus born of the water and of
the Spirit, and all men must follow the example of the Redeemer of the
world if they expect to become heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus
Christ.

The World:—Did you promise the Holy Ghost to all those whom you
baptized?

John:—I did. I said to them, "I indeed baptize you with water unto
repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am
not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire."
(Matt. 3: 11.)

The World:—You are excused, John.

Latter-day Saints:—Our next witness is the Apostle John.

TESTIMONY OF THE APOSTLE JOHN.

The World:—You are an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ?

John:—I am.

The World:—John the Baptist promised those who believed in Christ and
who had repented and been baptized for the remission of their sins that the
Messiah would baptize them with the Holy Ghost and with fire. Did you
receive that higher baptism?

John:—I did, but not until Christ had fulfilled His mission and had returned
to His Father. While the Savior was with us He was our Teacher, our Guide
and our Comforter; but when He ascended up on high we received from the
Father the other Comforter, the Holy Ghost, who was to abide within us
forever. During His sojourn with us, Jesus referred quite often to the Divine
Spirit which His Father would confer upon us after His departure. On
different occasions He said to us: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy
Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto
you." (John 14: 26.) "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send
unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from
the Father, he shall testify of me." (John 15: 26.) "Howbeit when he, the
Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not
speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he
will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of
mine, and shall show it unto you." (John 16: 13, 14.) "And when they bring
you unto the synagogues, and unto the magistrates, and powers, take ye no
thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: for the
Holy Ghost shall teach you in that same hour what ye ought to say. (Luke
12: 11, 12.) "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I
go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I
depart, I will send him unto you." (John 16: 7.) "And, behold, I send the
promise of my Father unto you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until
ye be endued with power from on high." (Luke 24: 49.)

The World:—How was the Holy Ghost conferred upon the people?

John:—Through prayer and by the imposition of hands.

The World:—Did you receive the Holy Ghost in this manner?

John:—I did, and so did the rest of the Apostles. Jesus said to us, "And I
will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may
abide with you forever." (John 14: 16.) He led us out as far as Bethany,
where He lifted up His hands and blessed us; He then breathed on us, and
said, "Receive ye the Holy Ghost." (Luke 24: 50; John 20: 22.)

The World:—That is all, John.

Latter-day Saints:—Our next witness, the Apostle Peter, is ready to be

examined.

The World:—We will listen to his testimony.

PETER TESTIFIES.

The World:—Did you also receive from Christ the promise of the Holy
Ghost?

Peter:—I did. After His resurrection, the Lord appeared to us as we were

assembled together, and commanded us that we should not depart from
Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, "which," said He, "ye
have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be
baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." (Acts 1: 4, 5.)

The World:—When did you receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Peter:—On the day of Pentecost. The Apostles were assembled together,

and suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind,
and it rilled all the house where we were sitting. And there appeared unto us
cloven tongues like of as fire, and it sat upon each of us. And we were all
filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the
Spirit gave us utterance. (Acts 2: 2-4.)

The World:—Were the Apostles the only ones who received the Holy
Ghost?

Peter:—They were not. The Lord is not a respecter of persons; in every

nation he that feareth God and keepeth His commandments is accepted of
Him. John assured all his baptized converts that they would receive the
baptism of the Holy Ghost. After being endowed with the Divine Spirit, the
Apostles stood up before a great multitude of people and bore witness of the
resurrection of Christ. Thousands of people, on beholding the glorious
outpouring of the Holy Ghost, and perceiving the power by which we
spake, were pricked in their hearts, and cried out, "Men and brethren, what
shall we do?" This is what I said unto them, "Repent, and be baptized every
one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your
children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall
call." (Acts 2: 38, 39.)

The World:—Did Christ give you authority to confer the Holy Ghost upon
those who believed on your words and obeyed the Gospel?

Peter:—He did, and also to the other Apostles. He said to us: "But ye shall
receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be
witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and
unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1: 8.) After His resurrection the
Lord appeared unto us and commissioned us to go forth and preach the
Gospel. "Go ye into all the world," said He, "and preach the Gospel to every
creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that
believe; in my name they shall cast out devils; they shall speak with new
tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it
shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover."
(Mark 16: 15-18.)

The World:—Did the people who accepted the Gospel of Christ in the days
of your ministry receive the gift of the Holy Ghost?

Peter:—They did. The Lord confirmed the words of His servants by pouring
out His Holy Spirit upon those who repented of their sins and who were
baptized by Divine authority for the remission of their sins.

The World:—How was the Holy Ghost conferred?

Peter:—By prayer and by the imposition of the hands of authorized servants
of God.

The World:—Can you refer us to an occasion when the Holy Ghost was
given to believers?

Peter:—On one occasion Philip went down to Samaria and preached the
Gospel to the inhabitants of that city. "And the people with one accord gave
heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles
which he did. For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many
that were possessed with them; and many taken with palsies, and that were
lame, were healed. * * * When they believed Philip preaching the things
concerning the Kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were
baptized, both men and women." (Acts 8: 5-7, 12.) While Philip had
authority to preach the Gospel, and also to baptize, he did not have
authority to confer the Holy Ghost. He, therefore, sent word to the Apostles
at Jerusalem, acquainting them of the work which he had performed in
Samaria, and requesting them to send men endowed with higher authority,
to confirm the baptized converts and to pray for them that they might
receive the Holy Ghost. John and I were sent down to Samaria, and when
we met with the converts there we prayed for them, after which we laid our
hands upon them, and the Holy Ghost came upon them. (Acts 8: 14-17.)

The World:—We will now excuse you, Peter.

The World:—We have been taught that the signs spoken of by Peter were
only to follow the Apostles and the believers in that age; that they were
given to assist in establishing Christianity; and that when Christianity
became established they were done away with and were no longer needed.

Latter-day Saints: We know that that is the teaching of professed ministers

of the Gospel, but it is in direct opposition to the teaching of Christ and His
Apostles. "Christ places His preaching, believing, salvation, and the signs
that were to follow, all on an equal footing; where one was limited, the
other must be; where one ceased, the other did. If the language limits the
signs to the Apostles, it limits salvation to them also. If no others were to
have these signs follow them then no others were to believe, and no others
were to be saved. If the language limits these signs to the first age or ages of
Christianity, then it limits salvation to the first ages of Christianity, for one
is as precisely as much limited as the other; and where one is in force, the
other is; and where one ends, the other must stop. As well might we say,
preaching of the Gospel is no longer needed; neither faith nor salvation;
these were only given at first to establish the Gospel, as to say, the signs are
no longer necessary, they were only given at first to establish the Gospel."

The World—We will now excuse you, Peter.

Latter-day Saints:—We have another witness, the Apostle Paul.

The World:—We are ready to hear his testimony.

TESTIMONY OF PAUL.

The World:—Paul, after your conversion did you receive the gift of the
Holy Ghost?

Paul—I did. Ananias, being sent of the Lord, came to me in Damascus, and
placing his hands upon me, said: "Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that
appeared unto thee in the way as thou earnest, has sent me, that thou
mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost." (Acts 9: 17.)

The World:—Did anyone ever receive the Holy Ghost under your
administration?

Paul:—Yes, many. On one occasion, while Apollos was at Corinth, I passed

through the upper coasts and came to Ephesus. There I found certain
disciples who told me that they had been baptized. I asked them if they had
received the Holy Ghost since they believed, and they answered that they
had not—that they had not even heard of the Holy Ghost. I asked them with
what baptism they had been baptized, and they replied, "Unto John's
baptism." I told them that John verily baptized with the baptism of
repentance, saying unto the people that they should believe on Him which
should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they
were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. I then laid my hands upon
them and prayed for them that the Lord would bestow upon them His Holy
Spirit. The Lord hearkened unto my prayer and acknowledged my
administration, for the Holy Ghost came upon them and they spake with
tongues and prophesied. (Acts 19: 1-6.) Timothy also received this precious
gift by the laying on of my hands. (II Tim. 1: 6.)

The World:—How does the Holy Ghost operate upon those who receive it?

Paul:—In divers ways. "There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of
knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to
another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of
miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another
divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues; but all
these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man
severally as he will." (I Cor. 12: 4-11.) All these gifts, and many others,
were enjoyed by the primitive Christians, and were inseparably connected
with the true Gospel of Christ.

The World:—Did you not write an epistle to the Corinthian saints in which
you told them that the gifts of prophecy, tongues, etc., would cease?

Paul:—I did. I told them that such gifts would cease when that which is
perfect should come. I read from my epistle: "Charity never faileth: but
whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they
shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know
in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come,
then that which is in part shall be done away. * * * For now we see through
a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I
know even as I am known." (I Cor. 13: 8-10, 12.) I wrote an epistle to the
Ephesians, in which I told them that the spiritual gifts which Christ had
placed in His Church were to continue "till we all come to the unity of the
faith." The following is an extract from my epistle: "Wherefore he saith,
when he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto
men." "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some,
evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints,
for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we
all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ."
(Eph. 4: 8, 11-13.)

The World:—The witness is excused. (To the Latter-day Saints):—Do the

members of your Church enjoy the gifts of the Holy Ghost?

Latter-day Saints:—They do. "We believe in the gifts of the Holy Ghost
being enjoyed now as much as they were in the days of the Apostles; we
believe that the revelations of the Holy Ghost are necessary to organize the
Priesthood; that no man can be called to fill any office in the ministry
without it; we also believe in prophecy, in tongues, in visions, in
revelations, in healings; and that these things cannot be enjoyed without the
Holy Ghost; we believe that holy men of old spake as they were moved by
the Holy Ghost, and that holy men in these days speak by the same power;
we believe in its being a comforter and a witness-bearer; that it brings
things past to our remembrance, leads us into all truth, and shows us of
things to come; we believe that no man can know that Jesus is the Christ but
by the Holy Ghost."

The World:—Have you received authority from the Lord to confer the Holy
Ghost upon those who comply with the laws and ordinances of the Gospel?

Latter-day Saints:—We have. The authority was conferred upon Joseph

Smith and Oliver Cowdery by the Apostles Peter, James and John.

The World:—Have the gifts of the Holy Ghost been made manifest in this
dispensation?

Latter-day Saints:—They have. On the evening of March 27th, 1836,

Joseph Smith met the quorums of the Priesthood in the Kirtland Temple and
instructed them respecting the ordinance of the washing of feet, and in
relation to the spirit of prophecy. He called upon the congregation to speak,
and not to fear to prophesy good concerning the Saints; "for if you
prophesy," said he, "the falling of these hills, and the rising of the valleys,
the downfall of the enemies of Zion, and the rising of the Kingdom of God,
it shall come to pass. Do not quench the Spirit, for the first one that shall
open his mouth shall receive the Spirit of prophecy." Brother George A.
Smith arose, and began to prophesy, when a noise was heard like the sound
of a rushing mighty wind, which filled the temple, and all the congregation
simultaneously arose, being moved upon by an invisible power; many
began to speak in tongues, and prophesy; others saw glorious visions; and
the Temple was filled with angels, which fact the Prophet declared to the
congregation. The people of the neighborhood came running together,
hearing an unusual sound within, and seeing a bright light like a pillar of
fire resting upon the Temple, and were astonished at what was transpiring."
(Compendium pp. 267-8.)

The World:—Do you promise the Holy Ghost to all those who repent and
obey the Gospel which you preach?

Latter-day Saints:—We do. In sending forth His servants in these last days
to proclaim the glad tidings of the Gospel of peace, the Lord said:
"Therefore go ye into all the world, and whatsoever place ye cannot go into
ye shall send, that the testimony may go from you into all the world unto
every creature. And as I said unto mine apostles, even so I say unto you, for
you are mine apostles, even God's high priests; ye are they whom my Father
hath given me—ye are my friends; therefore, as I said unto mine apostles I
say unto you again, that every soul who believeth on your words, and is
baptized by water for the remission of sins, shall receive the Holy Ghost;
and these signs shall follow them that believe. In my name they shall do
many wonderful works; in my name they shall cast out devils; in my name
they shall heal the sick; in my name they shall open the eyes of the blind,
and unstop the ears of the deaf; and the tongue of the dumb shall speak; and
if any man shall administer poison unto them it shall not hurt them; and the
poison of a serpent shall not have power to harm them. But a
commandment I give unto them, that they shall not boast themselves of
these things, neither speak them before the world, for these things are given
unto you for your profit and for salvation. Verily, verily I say unto you, they
who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water, in my name,
for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall
be damned, and shall not come into my Father's Kingdom, where my Father
and I am. And this revelation unto you, and commandment, is in force from
this very hour upon all the world, and the gospel is unto all who have not
received it." (Doc. and Cov. 84: 62-75.) All who will, with honest hearts,
receive the message which we bear—the message that God the Father has
in these last days restored through the ministration of angels, the everlasting
Gospel—shall receive a testimony by the manifestations of the Holy Spirit
of its Divine authenticity. And these manifestations shall be such as to give
them perfect knowledge of its truth.

VII. BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD.

Latter-day Saints:—Before proceeding further, permit us to ask you a

question or two: Have we not proved, and that, too, beyond all controversy,
that a living, active and abiding faith in God the Father, and in His Only
Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, is indispensable to man's salvation?

The World:—You have shown that, in order for a man to please God, not to
mention being saved of Him, he must have faith in Him, and in His Son
Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world.

Latter-day Saints:—Have we not proven most conclusively that men must

repent of their sins and turn away from their iniquities before they can gain
access to the Kingdom of God?

The World:—Sufficient evidence has been given to prove that sincere and
genuine repentance must be exhibited in the lives of all men who hope for
salvation, for the decree has gone forth that no unclean thing can enter the
Kingdom of Heaven.

Latter-day Saints:—Have we not proven that the proper mode of baptism is

immersion, and that the object of baptism is for the remission of sins?

The World:—The testimony of your witnesses in regard to the mode, object

and essentiality of baptism cannot be refuted. Christ's answer to Nicodemus
—"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the
Kingdom of God"—should put an end to all discussion on that subject.

Latter-day Saints:—Have we not proven that after a man has complied with
the ordinance of baptism, he must receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on
of the hands of authorized servants of God?
The World:—Such was the practice in the primitive church. After baptism
the Apostles confirmed the believers by the laying on of hands, with prayer,
and conferring the Holy Ghost.

Latter-day Saints:—These are the first principles of the Gospel of Christ,

and the Apostle Paul has declared that "though we, or an angel from
heaven, preach any other Gospel unto you than that which we have
preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1: 8.)

The World:—You have laid before us in a most clear and convincing

manner the plan of salvation. Permit us now to ask you, What is to become
of those who have died in ignorance of the Gospel of Christ?

Latter-day Saints:—Our reply to that question is this: God is a God of

mercy and justice. He does not seek a crop where there has been no seed
sown. All those who have died in ignorance of the Gospel are in the hands
of Him whose nature and whose name is Love, whose desire is that all His
children may be saved and brought to a knowledge of the truth. He has
made provision whereby the glad tidings of great joy which the angel
brought to the shepherds on the morning of the Savior's birth shall be
proclaimed unto every son and daughter of God. The Creator has made of
one blood all nations that dwell on the earth. There is no respect of persons
with God. His glorious plan of redemption was not revealed for the benefit
of a favored class. When the angel of the Lord appeared to the shepherds on
the plains of Judaea, he said unto them, "Behold, I bring you glad tidings of
great joy, which shall be to all people." (Luke 2: 10.) Now, it is an
undisputed fact that millions had died before that time without having heard
those good tidings, just as millions have died since whose ears have never
been saluted with the good news of the Savior's birth, and of the great
redemption which He purchased for the whole human family by the
shedding of His most precious blood. Who could be so lost to all reason as
to think for a moment that God would consign to everlasting punishment all
those who died in absolute ignorance of His Divine laws? We now ask you,
as Paul asked the Roman saints, "How then shall they call on him in whom
they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they
have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom. 10:
14.) But here is the Apostle Peter, a recognized authority on the doctrine of
Christ. Hear what he has to say in the subject.

TESTIMONY OF PETER.

The World:—Peter, would you have us believe that the Gospel is preached
to those who die in ignorance of its Divine truths?

Peter:—I am surprised to hear you ask such a question when so much has
been written on the matter. Jesus Christ came, not to save the living only,
but the dead also. He declared that if He were lifted up from the earth He
would draw all men unto Him, (John 12: 32), and that the hour was coming
when the dead, as well as the living, would hear His voice. (John 5: 25.)

The World:—Then, according to your testimony, Christ after having

preached the Gospel to men in the flesh, went also and preached the same
Gospel to those who had died without having heard of its saving principles?

Peter:—He did; and not to them only, but also to those who rejected it when
it was preached to them on the earth.

The World:—This is certainly strange doctrine to us. Our ministers have

never taught us that the dead could be saved as well as the living.

Peter:—That is because they do not understand the Scriptures. The men

who wrote the Scriptures wrote as they were moved upon by the Holy
Ghost, and in order for men to understand the writings of the prophets and
other inspired servants of God, they must be in possession of the same
Spirit, for "the things of God knoweth no man but by the Spirit of God." If
you will permit me, I will endeavor to make the Scriptures plain to your
understanding. Noah, as you all know, was a preacher of righteousness. He
was called by the Lord to preach the Gospel to the people of his generation.
But they refused to listen to his warning; they turned deaf ears to his
entreaties, and at last the Lord came out in judgment upon them and
destroyed them from the face of the earth. But did He then cast them off
forever? No, indeed. The Lord does not keep His anger forever. He had
prepared a place for them, for in His house there are many mansions. He
had prepared a prison-house for the wicked and rebellious, and when the
antediluvians were destroyed in the flesh, their spirits were shut up in the
Lord's prison-house, where they were kept for thousands of years, or in
other words, till they had paid the uttermost farthing.

The World:—And did those people have the opportunity afterwards of

again hearing the Gospel?

Peter:—I am coming to that. I told you those spirits were shut up in prison
for thousands of years. Now, I do not ask you to accept of my testimony
alone concerning this matter. I am going to read to you what Isaiah the
Prophet has written concerning the Lord's prison-house and its inmates.
Here are his words: "And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are
gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days
shall they be visited." (Isaiah 24: 22.) Now, let us stop for a moment and
analyze this Scripture. There is a depth of meaning in it, I assure you.
Writing was not done with such ease in Isaiah's time as it is today. The
prophet did not pen the words which I have read just for pastime—they
were written for our profit and learning. He pointed out most clearly the
fate of those who would not hearken to the voice of the Lord or of His
servants, but spent the days of their probation in gratifying their carnal
appetites. They were to be gathered together as prisoners, and shut up in a
prison, where they were to be confined for many days. But they were not to
be left without hope. The promise was made that when they had paid the
penalty for their misdeeds they would be visited. This, according to the
words of the prophet was part of Christ's missionary work: He was to
preach redemption not only to the living, but to the dead as well; He was to
visit the prisoners in the prison-house and preach deliverance to them. I
quote again from his writings: "I the Lord have called thee in righteousness,
and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of
the people, for a light of the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out
the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the
prison-house." (Isaiah 42: 6, 7.) Now, I desire to remind you that Christ
confirmed this prophecy of Isaiah. He told the people that it referred to
Him, and that it would be fulfilled in Him. Standing up in the synagogue in
Nazareth one Sabbath day He quoted Isaiah's prophecy, as follows: "The
Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the
Gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach
deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at
liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord."
(Luke 4: 18, 19.) So, you see that part of Christ's work was to preach
deliverance to the captives, and open the prison to those who were bound.

The World:—When did the Messiah perform that work?

Peter:—During the three days that His body lay in the tomb.

The World:—Was His Spirit not with His Father during that time?

Peter:—According to Christ's own testimony it was not. When the Lord

appeared to Mary, after His resurrection, He told her to touch Him not, for
He had not yet ascended to His Father. (John 20: 17.) In two epistles which
I wrote to the Saints in early days I made special reference to Christ's visit
to the spirits in prison. This is what I said: "For Christ also hath once
suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he
went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were
disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of
Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were
saved by water." (I Peter 3: 18-20.) "For for this cause was the Gospel
preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to
men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (I Peter 4: 6.)
While this doctrine may be strange to you, it was quite well understood by
the Saints in former days.

The World:—We thank you, Peter, for your testimony.

Latter-day Saints:—Before calling another witness we will quote to you the

comments of Professor A. Hinderkoper, a German writer, and Bishop
Alford, on the words of Peter. The former says: "In the second and third
centuries every branch and division of the Christian Church, so far as their
records enable us to judge, believed that Christ preached to the departed
spirits." (Haley's Discrepancies of the Bible.) Bishop Alford says: "I
understand these words (I Peter 3: 19) to say that our Lord in his
disembodied state, did go to the place of detention of departed spirits, and
did there announce His work of redemption; preach salvation in fact, to the
disembodied spirits of those who refused to obey the voice of God when the
judgment of the flood was hanging over them." We now respectfully ask
you to listen to what the Apostle Paul has to say on this matter.

PAUL'S EVIDENCE.

The World:—Paul, do you believe that the Gospel is preached to men after
they depart this life?

Paul:—I do. I corroborate all that the Apostle Peter has said concerning
salvation for the dead. This doctrine was well understood by the people in
our day. Jesus, you remember, told Nicodemus that except a man were born
of water and of the Spirit, he could not enter the Kingdom of God. Now, in
those days the people asked the same question that many people ask today,
"If baptism is essential to salvation, what is to become of those who have
died without having been baptized?" Had the Lord failed to make provision
for such people, it would have revealed an imperfection in the plan of
salvation, which is not the case, for "the law of the Lord is perfect." Peter
has told you that the Gospel was preached to the dead; I taught the people
the doctrine of baptism for the dead. Here is what I wrote to the
Corinthians: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the
dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (I Cor. 15:
20.) The Saints in former times believed in and performed a vicarious work
for the dead—they were baptized for their dead. But after the death of the
Apostles men transgressed the laws and changed the ordinances of the
Gospel, in consequence of which darkness covers the earth and gross
darkness the minds of the people.

The World:—You are excused, Paul.

Latter-day Saints (to the World):—We desire to call your attention to a

prophecy which was made by Malachi. He prophesied as follows: "Behold,
I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and
dreadful day of the Lord: and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the
children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite
the earth with a curse." (Mal. 4: 5, 6.) Now, we testify to you, in all
soberness, that this prophecy has been literally fulfilled. On the 3rd day of
April, 1836, the Prophet Elijah appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver
Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple. Addressing them he said: "Behold, the
time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi;
testifying that I should be sent before the great and dreadful day of the Lord
come, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the
fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse. Therefore the keys of
this dispensation are committed into your hands, and by this ye may know
that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors." We
have built a number of temples, in which baptism and other ordinances have
been performed in behalf of millions of our dead relatives and friends. This
is also in fulfillment of the prophecy of Micah, who said: "But in the last
days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall
be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the
hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say,
Come, and let us go up the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the
God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his
paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from
Jerusalem." (Micah 4: 1, 2.) The work for the dead is still in progress. The
hearts of the fathers are being turned to the children, and the hearts of the
children to the fathers. Blessed are all those who engage in this glorious
work, for great shall be their joy when they meet their loved ones who have
passed beyond the veil, and for whom they stood as saviors upon Mount
Zion.

VIII.—DIVINE AUTHORITY.

The World (to the Latter-day Saints):—Do you claim to have received
authority from the Lord to preach the Gospel and administer in the
ordinances thereof?

Latter-day Saints:—We do. The Lord has in these last days restored,
through the ministering of angels, both the Aaronic and Melchisedek
Priesthood, empowering His servants to preach the Gospel, baptize
repentant believers for the remission of their sins, confirm them members in
His Church, and by prayer and the imposition of hands call down upon
them the Holy Ghost.
The World:—Must a man be called of God and divinely appointed before
he can preach acceptably the Gospel of Jesus Christ and administer its
ordinances?

Latter-day Saints:—He must, as the Apostle Paul and others will testify.

TESTIMONY OF PAUL.

The World:—Paul, do you consider it absolutely necessary in order for a

man to preach the Gospel and administer in its ordinances, for him to be
called of God and ordained by those holding Divine authority?

Paul:—I do. In every dispensation of the world the Lord has chosen certain
men to represent Him among the people. These He called, either by His
own voice or by the voice of His servants whom He had previously chosen.

The World:—Can you cite us a few examples of the calling of men to the
ministry?

Paul:—I can. The Lord called Noah to be a preacher of righteousness to the

people of his generation; and when they would not hearken to the testimony
of His authorized servant, the Lord destroyed them from the earth.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were called in like manner for the work which
the Lord had appointed them.

The World:—How were they called?

Paul:—They were called by direct revelation from heaven, the Lord

speaking to them by His own voice. To Abraham He said: "Get thee out of
thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land
that I will show thee: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless
thee, and make thy name great and thou shalt be a blessing; * * * and in
thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." (Gen. 12: 1-3.) Isaac and
Jacob were called in a similar manner. (Gen. 28: 2-5; 28: 10-15.)

The World:—Would it be improper for a man to preach the Gospel and

administer its ordinances without his having been divinely commissioned to
do so?
Paul:—It would, indeed. No man has a right to take such honor unto
himself except he be called of God, as was Aaron. Permit me to read a
couple of extracts from my epistles to the Romans and to the Hebrews. This
is what I said:

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how
shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they
hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach except they be sent?"
(Rom. 10: 14, 15.) "And no man taketh this honor unto himself, but he that
is called of God, as was Aaron." (Heb. 5: 4.)

The World:—How was Aaron called to the ministry?

Paul:—He was called of the Lord through the Prophet Moses. As you well
know, the Lord spoke to Moses out of the burning bush, commissioning
him to go on a mission to Egypt and deliver the children of Israel. Moses
reminded the Lord that he had an impediment in his speech, when the Lord
said to him: "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak
well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee; and when he seeth
thee he will be glad in his heart. And thou shalt speak unto him and put
words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and
will teach you what you shall do." (Exodus 4: 14, 15.) "And the Lord said to
Aaron, Go into the wilderness to meet Moses. And he went, and met him in
the mount of God, and kissed him. And Moses told Aaron all the words of
the Lord who had sent him, and all the signs which he had commanded
him." (Exodus 4: 27, 28.)

The World:—When men are called of the Lord, through His inspired
servants, to minister unto the people, is it necessary for them to be ordained
and set apart for their respective duties by the laying on of the hands of the
Lord's servants?

Paul:—It is. Such has been the practice in every Gospel dispensation.
Joshua, the son of Nun, was set apart, as directed of the Lord, through the
imposition of hands by Moses. Let me read to you what Moses has written
on this matter: "And the Lord said unto Moses, take thee Joshua, the son of
Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay thine hands upon him; and set
him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation; and give him
a charge in their sight. And thou shalt put some of thine honor upon him,
that all the congregation of the children of Israel may be obedient. * * *
And Moses did as the Lord commanded him: and he took Joshua, and set
him before Eleazar the priest, and before all the congregation: and he laid
his hands upon him, and gave him a charge, as the Lord commanded by the
hand of Moses." (Num. 27: 18-20, 22, 23.)

The World:—Paul, in what way were you called to the ministry, and by
whom were you ordained?

Paul:—I was called by the Holy Ghost, and was ordained under the hands
of Simeon, Lucius and Manaen. You will find a record of my call and
ordination in the 13th chapter of the Acts of the Apostles, as follows: "Now
there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers:
as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and
Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As
they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me
Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when
they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them
away." (Acts 13: 1-3.)

The World:—We have no further questions to ask you, Paul.

Latter-day Saints:—We now respectfully ask you to hear what the Apostle
Peter has to say on this very important subject.

PETER'S TESTIMONY.

The World:—Were you called of the Lord and ordained to take part in His
ministry?

Peter:—I was. You will find an account of my call and ordination, as well as
that of the other eleven apostles, in the third chapter of Mark's Gospel. It is
as follows: "And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom
He would: and they came unto him. And he ordained twelve, that they
should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach." (Mark 3:
13, 14.) "Ye have not chosen me," said Jesus, "but I have chosen you, and
ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit
should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he
may give it you." (John 15: 16.)

The World:—Must a man be called of God and ordained by Divine

authority before he can hold an office in the Church of Christ?

Peter:—He must. The death of Judas left a vacancy in the quorum of

Apostles. In choosing his successor we appealed to the Lord to manifest to
us His mind and will in the selection of a man to fill the vacancy. There
were two men. Barnabas and Matthias, whom we considered equally
worthy of the honor. We presented these two men before the Lord in prayer
and said, "Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, show which of
these two thou hast chosen, that he may take part of this ministry and
apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his
own place." (Acts 1: 24, 25.) It was revealed to us that Matthias was the
Lord's choice, and he was appointed by unanimous vote.

The World:—Are we to understand from what you have said that it was the
desire of the Lord that Apostles and Prophets and all the other officers
should continue in the Church?

Peter:—Such, indeed, was the desire of the Lord. If it had not been, He
would not have appointed a successor to Judas.

The World:—Our ministers have told us that Apostles and Prophets are not
necessary in these days; that they were placed in the Church to establish
Christianity, and that when Christianity was established they were no longer
needed.

Peter:—There is nothing in the Scriptures to warrant such an assertion. On

the contrary, it is most positively stated that the Lord put these officers in
the Church "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for
the edifying of the body of Christ." And they were to remain in the church
"till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son
of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of
Christ; that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and
carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and
cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive." (Eph. 4: 12-14.)

The World:—How was the primitive Christian Church organized?

Peter:—It was "built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus
Christ himself being the chief corner stone." (Eph. 2: 20.) The Lord placed
in the Church Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, etc. (Eph.
4: 11.)

The World:—The churches of the world are not organized after that pattern?

Peter:—They are not. They were not established by Christ. Had Christ
established them, He would have put in them the same officers that He put
in the early Christian Church. The Churches of the world were established
by men. They are named after men. There is Saint Paul's Church, Saint
Peter's Church, Saint Mark's Church, Saint Luke's Church, Saint John's
Church, etc.

The World:—There seems, therefore, to have been an apostasy from the

primitive Christian Church?

Peter:—There has. The Scriptures are replete with prophecies concerning

the great apostasy which was to take place after the death of the apostles.
Permit me to call your attention to a few of them. Have you a Bible at
hand?

The World:—We have.

Peter:—Turn to the fourth chapter of Paul's second epistle to Timothy and

read what he prophesied concerning the apostasy that was to take place.

The World:—Paul prophesied as follows: "For the time will come when
they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap
unto themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their
ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." (II Tim. 4: 3,4.)
Peter:—Now turn to the 29th chapter of Isaiah and read what the prophet
said concerning the state of the world in the last days.

The World:—Isaiah prophesied as follows: "Stay yourselves, and wonder;

cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but
not with strong drink. For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of
deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the
seers hath he covered. Wherefore the Lord said, forasmuch as this people
draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have
removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the
precept of men; therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work
among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of
their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men
shall be hid." (Isaiah 29: 9, 10, 13, 14.)

Peter:—How perfectly did Paul describe the condition of the world at the
present time! Instead of having inspired Apostles and Prophets to reveal to
them the mind and will of the Lord, and to teach to them the true plan of
salvation, the people have heaped to themselves teachers, having itching
ears, and they have turned their ears away from the truth and turned them
unto fables. When you think of the multitude of jarring and contending
sects that are in the world today, you can see how literally the prophecies of
Paul and Isaiah have been fulfilled.

The World:—Were Paul and Isaiah the only ones who prophesied
concerning an apostasy?

Peter:—They were not. There were many others who uttered similar
predictions. But I ask you to read what Isaiah further said concerning the
apostasy; you will find it in the twenty-fourth chapter of his book.

The World:—Isaiah says: "The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants
thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance,
broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath the curse devoured the
earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate; therefore the inhabitants of
the earth are burned, and few men left." (Isaiah 24: 5, 6).
Peter:—Notice the similarity in these prophecies: Isaiah prophesied that the
day would come when the people would transgress the laws, change the
ordinance, and break the everlasting covenant. Paul declared that the time
would come when they would not endure sound doctrine, but would heap to
themselves teachers, having itching ears, who would turn their ears away
from the truth and turn them unto fables. On another occasion Paul
prophesied as follows: "For I know this, that after my departure shall
grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your
own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away
disciples after them." (Acts 20: 29, 30.) Paul lived to see the beginning of
the terrible apostasy of which he spoke. "I marvel," said he, writing to the
Galatians, "that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the
grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another; but there be some
that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ." (Gal. 1: 6, 7.) I
myself prophesied concerning the apostasy. Here is what I said: "But there
were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false
teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even
denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift
destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of
whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness
shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you." (II Peter 2: 1-3.)

The World:—The prophets and apostles truly foretold an apostasy, and the
divided state of Christendom—the hundreds of different sects and
denominations, the numerous, conflicting theories which are being
advocated by men for the Gospel of Jesus Christ—bear incontrovertible
testimony that such an apostasy has taken place. Must this condition
continue, or will there be a restitution?

Peter:—There will be a restitution of all things spoken of by the mouth of

the holy prophets.

The World:—Do you think the Lord will ever send us Apostles and
Prophets to teach us the true Gospel of Christ as it was taught by Him and
His inspired servants in ancient days?

Peter:—He will, for so He has declared. Here is the Apostle John; I pray
you, hear what he has to say concerning the restoration of the Gospel in the
latter days.

JOHN'S TESTIMONY.

The World:—John, do you think we will ever be favored with new

revelation from God?

John:—Have you forgotten what Joel prophesied concerning the last days?
He said: "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit
upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old
men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions." (Joel 2: 28.)

The World:—Then, we may look for Prophets to be sent of God.

John:—Yes, and angels also will come down from heaven to restore that
which was lost. You have heard already of the great apostasy that was to
take place; you have seen how the principles and ordinances of the Gospel
have been perverted; you see the Christian world a Babel of Confusion. The
Lord knew that all these things would take place, and He decreed that in the
last days He would set His hand again to recover His people from their lost
and fallen state. He revealed to me that before His judgments were poured
out upon the inhabitants of the earth He would send an angel with the
everlasting Gospel, to be preached to every nation under heaven. Read, I
pray you, what I said concerning this matter in the fourteenth chapter of my
book.

The World:—You wrote as follows: "And I saw another angel fly in the
midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that
dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and
people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the
hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven and earth,
and the sea, and the fountains of water. (Rev. 14: 6, 7.)

John:—Now, I advise you to look for the fulfillment of the things which the
Lord has spoken by the mouth of His holy prophets.

The World:—Thank you, John; you are excused.

Latter-day Saints:—Now, we testify to you in words of soberness that the
angel which John predicted would come to the earth in the last days with
the everlasting Gospel, has come to the Prophet Joseph Smith. The Lord
also sent heavenly messengers to him and others, who conferred upon them
Divine authority, and instructed them concerning the restoration of the true
Church of Christ on the earth for the last time, preparatory to the coming of
the Son of Man. That Church has been organized after the primitive pattern.
In it are inspired Apostles and Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers.
It teaches the very same Gospel that was taught by Christ and His Apostles;
its members enjoy the same gifts and blessings that were enjoyed by the
former-day saints: they have the gift of prophecy, revelations, visions,
healings, tongues, interpretation of tongues, etc. And, if you desire to know
the truth of these things, we advise you to follow the exhortation of the
Apostle James, when he said, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of
God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be
given him." (James 1: 5.)

"Our enemies have kicked us, and cuffed us, and driven us from pillar
to post, and we have multiplied and increased the more, until we have
become what we are this day."

—Brigham Young.

"It is not our business to fight our enemies. There is no man or woman
on the face of the earth, but is our brother or our sister. They are the
children of God and we are here to bear and forbear with them in their
interest and for the glory of God."

—Lorenzo Snow.
A CONGRESSMAN'S OPINION OF THE
PROPHET.
(From the Historical Record.)

In the winter of 1840, the Prophet Joseph Smith went to Washington, D. C,

to petition the president of the United States and Congress to redress the
grievances of the Saints against the people of Missouri. While at the
nation's capital he had several opportunities of speaking in public. On the
evening of February 5, 1840, he addressed a large audience. Mr. M. L.
Davis, a member of Congress, was present. In a letter written to his wife the
day after, he gives the following opinion of the Prophet:

I went last evening to hear "Joe Smith," the celebrated Mormon,

expound his doctrine. I, with several others, had a desire to understand
his tenets as explained by himself.

He is not an educated man; but he is a plain, sensible, strong-minded

man. Everything he says is said in a manner to leave an impression
that he is sincere. There is no levity, no fanaticism, no want of dignity
in his deportment. He is apparently from forty to forty-five years of
age, rather above the middle stature, and what you ladies would call a
very good looking man. In his garb there are no peculiarities; his dress
being that of a plain, unpretending citizen. He is by profession a
farmer, but is evidently well read. * * *

During the whole of his address, which occupied more than two hours,
there was no opinion or belief that he expressed, that was calculated, in
the slightest degree, to impair the morals of society, or in any manner
to degrade and brutalize the human species. There was much in his
precepts, if they were followed, that would soften the asperities of man
toward man, and that would tend to make him a more rational being
than he is generally found to be. There was no violence, no fury, no
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