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 Another Random Document on
Scribd Without Any Related Topics
 Mr. Hubert. That would make the time of arrival at the terminal
then about 10:15 or 10:20?
Mr. Hall. This could be so; yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. When you got there, was anyone else there?
Mr. Hall. I believe I was the first.
Mr. Hubert. Who got there next?
Mr. Hall. I think the order of arrival was me, Dietrich, Goin,
Fleming.
Mr. Hubert. Can you tell us anything about the time intervals
between their arrival after yours?
Mr. Hall. Not really; no, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I think you have stated that all four of you were
there at the terminal, however, at 10:30?
Mr. Hall. Approximately so; yes, sir. I remember feeling quite
proud of the quick assembly time on a normally off-duty time.
Mr. Hubert. What occurred after the four of you were there? Do
you remember whether there were any telephone calls to Chief
Batchelor?
Mr. Hall. Yes, sir; I believe there were. I think Fleming called
Chief Batchelor at least once.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the nature of that call?
Mr. Hall. I am not sure whether Fleming got a hold of Chief
Batchelor or not. I think it was to determine if one of the smaller
trucks would be acceptable.
Mr. Hubert. What was decided upon. What actually happened?
Mr. Hall. The impression we received was that the larger truck
would have to be the one used.
Mr. Hubert. Did more than one truck go?
 Mr. Hall. Yes, sir; I decided to have the smaller truck accompany
the larger truck as a standby. This procedure we use in all cases of
tension for double protection. We frequently send two vehicles when
one would be sufficient to handle the load.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know when you left the terminal with the two
trucks?
Mr. Hall. Approximately 10:50—10:45 or 10:50.
Mr. Hubert. Would you estimate that between 15 and 20 minutes
between the time all four of you were there until the two-vehicle
convoy proceeded to the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. Hall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Now who was driving the larger truck?
Mr. Hall. I was, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Was anyone with you?
Mr. Hall. Mr. Fleming.
Mr. Hubert. Who was driving the other truck, the small one?
Mr. Hall. Don Goin, I believe; sir.
Mr. Hubert. Was Dietrich with him?
Mr. Hall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I gather from what you said, it was either Dietrich or
Goin driving the other car?
Mr. Hall. Yes, sir; I feel pretty sure it was Goin.
Mr. Hubert. Now how did you proceed from the terminal to the
Dallas Police Department building?
Mr. Hall. We, in convoy fashion, the large truck leading the small
truck, went south on Leonard to Ross, west on Ross to Pearl, south
on Pearl to Main, west on Main to Harwood, south on Harwood to
Commerce, east on Commerce just past the city hall basement
entrance, and I then backed the large truck into the entranceway
and indicated to the small truck to park just ahead of the
passageway in reserve.
Mr. Hubert. Had you been given any instructions to back in prior
to leaving the terminal?
Mr. Hall. Yes, sir; we had. We had had that understanding.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, when you got to the Dallas Police,
Commerce Street entrance, you did not wait for any further
instructions, but immediately proceeded to back in?
Mr. Hall. That’s right, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did Mr. Fleming or anyone else assist you in backing
in by way of directions and signal, and so forth?
Mr. Hall. Yes; Mr. Fleming helped with the traffic control, and
then remained at the rear of the truck for further instructions.
Mr. Hubert. Now was that the first time that day you had been to
the police department?
Mr. Hall. Oh, yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did anyone of you, including yourself, have on a
grayish or any other type of overcoat when you were at the police
department?
Mr. Hall. No.
Mr. Hubert. Have you ever seen any pictures of Jack Ruby?
Mr. Hall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I can tell by looking at you that you do not resemble
Jack Ruby.
Mr. Hall. Thank you.
Mr. Hubert. But I wanted you to express an opinion as to the
other gentleman.
Mr. Hall. Definitely not. Goin and Dietrich were in uniform. Our
standard uniform is khaki color, with .38 pistols at their side. Mr.
Fleming was in a suit, and he is tall and rather thin. I would guess at
least 6 inches taller than Mr. Ruby. There seems to be no
resemblance.
Mr. Hubert. Did you notice any TV mobile van units nearby there?
Mr. Hall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you or Mr. Fleming or Mr. Goin or Mr. Dietrich
ever approach any of those units, do you know?
Mr. Hall. For no reason; no, sir. There was one parked in the
way.
Mr. Hubert. Well, just describe it.
Mr. Hall. One parked at the entrance to my right. As I pulled
past the entrance and backed in, there was a TV camera stationed
on top of a truck approximately here.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, between you and Harwood Street?
Mr. Hall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Almost up to the Commerce entrance?
Mr. Hall. Yes, sir; there were a number of people, onlookers. All
of them had been regimented over on the other side of the street,
not any closer to the city hall than the sidewalk, to the far side of
Commerce. There were approximately 50 or so people over there.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see anybody on the Main Street side of
Commerce? That is to say, in the area of the sidewalk between the
mobile units and the building itself?
Mr. Hall. No; as we passed the Main Street side of the city hall,
we were quite intent in watching the traffic and people and in
getting our truck into proper position on the other side of the
building, so we didn’t observe anything.
Mr. Hubert. Did you observe anyone at all go up to the window of
any of the TV mobile units?
Mr. Hall. No, sir.
 Mr. Hubert. When your truck was placed on the ramp and arrived
at a stationary position, would you describe what that position was
relative to what part of the truck was inside the building and what
part was outside the building?
Mr. Hall. My cab was even with the outside wall of the building,
which would indicate that over half of the truck was indented into
the building on a downward slant. The rear door of the truck would
be 6 or 8 feet inside of the line formed by the outside wall of the
building. Is that the answer?
Mr. Hubert. Now you said that your cab, and therefore, you
sitting in the driver’s seat of the cab, was on a line even with the
outside wall of the building?
Mr. Hall. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. How far were you personally from the wall on your
left? In other words, how much space was there between you and
the wall?
Mr. Hall. Total of about 4 feet, I would imagine; sir. There is a
little parapet there. You allow for the runningboard of my truck and
the open door. Between my open door and the wall would be
approximately 2 feet left over.
I haven’t mentioned this; I think it is probably immaterial; a
newsman walked up to my cab during this interval of waiting for
something to happen and attempted to interview me, asking
questions about the operation of the company, and due to the stress
of the situation, I shut the door to avoid discussion.
Mr. Hubert. Well, does that have a window?
Mr. Hall. It is a bulletproof glass and it is sealed.
Mr. Hubert. What I am getting at is——
Mr. Hall. This is a minor thing, but they were quite annoying.
Mr. Hubert. What did he do? Did he just go on after that?
 Mr. Hall. He went on about his business.
Mr. Hubert. He did not go into the building?
Mr. Hall. No.
Mr. Hubert. How do you know he was a newspaperman?
Mr. Hall. He had a pad and a pencil and said he was.
Mr. Hubert. Have you seen pictures of Jack Ruby?
Mr. Hall. This wasn’t Jack Ruby.
Mr. Hubert. It was not?
Mr. Hall. No; definitely not. This was a young kid.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see anybody else pass by going into the
building to your left?
Mr. Hall. No.
Mr. Hubert. You are quite certain that no one did?
Mr. Hall. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Are you willing to state that no one could have
without your seeing them?
Mr. Hall. It is so very unlikely.
Mr. Hubert. I take it from the interval of hesitation that although
your answer has been it is very unlikely, you are not willing to make
the positive statement that nobody did?
Mr. Hall. No; due to one thing. There was approximately 20
minutes of tension. There was quite a bit of activity in the area. I
feel very sure that only the people designated passed my long
vantage point.
Mr. Hubert. When you say people designated, who do you mean?
Mr. Hall. Harold Fleming and the police officer and probably
Chief Batchelor.
 Mr. Hubert. Now did you hear the shot fired?
Mr. Hall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. From the time that you backed your truck in until the
time the shot was fired, did you move out of the van at all?
Mr. Hall. No; the reason is that it was parked on a slant and I
wanted to make darn sure we didn’t roll or have any problem.
Mr. Hubert. Did you keep your engine running?
Mr. Hall. Yes, sir; definitely.
Mr. Hubert. What was the reason why you didn’t go down all the
way?
Mr. Hall. The height of the truck. The height of the passageway
wouldn’t permit our truck down in there.
Mr. Hubert. Was any question raised as to whether the truck had
sufficient power to climb up that ramp if it went all the way down?
Mr. Hall. Oh, no; it is a heavy Chevrolet truck. Strictly a matter
of height.
Mr. Hubert. How much space was there between the right-hand
side of your truck and the wall on the Harwood Street side of the
Commerce entrance?
Mr. Hall. Just enough for one man to pass.
Mr. Hubert. That would be how much, a foot, or 2 feet?
Mr. Hall. Approximately 2 feet, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Now were there any police guards that you saw on
either side of your truck during the time it was parked?
Mr. Hall. Sitting in the driver’s seat looking out the left door to
the rear, I could observe a police guard beyond the rear of the truck
on the left side. I assumed there were police guards on the right
side also, even though from my vantage point I couldn’t see him.
Mr. Hubert. But you did see a police guard to your left?
 Mr. Hall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. In the space between the truck and the wall?
Mr. Hall. Behind the—further back down, sir, not standing
directly between the truck and the building; no.
Mr. Hubert. Nor was there any, I take it then, at the very
entrance between your truck and the wall?
Mr. Hall. Not stationed permanently at that spot to stand still;
no, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Well, were there some moving?
Mr. Hall. I have to explain this hesitation. I am trying to recall. At
the time, there was quite a bit of activity there. There were
policemen moving, patrol type situation. Two on the corner, two out
in the street directing traffic, one up at the door to the new part of
the city hall, and one out on the sidewalk.
Mr. Hubert. That was in front of your truck more or less?
Mr. Hall. Front and to the left; yes, sir. I am not just real
positive, but one policeman may have gone through that
passageway.
Mr. Hubert. You did not see anybody in civilian clothes?
Mr. Hall. Oh, no; gosh, no. There is another reason for this. The
concentration of newsmen was apparently already at their posts
down in the basement when we got there.
Mr. Hubert. How could you tell that?
Mr. Hall. When you back into an opening and look through your
rear-view mirror, or also turn around and look down the left side of
your truck, you see a concentration of people down in a rather dark
basement area. There was excitement down there. We were on the
outside.
Mr. Hubert. How could you tell there was excitement? By
movement, or sound?
 Mr. Hall. By movement and noise. Am I being direct enough?
Mr. Hubert. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Fleming
during any of this period?
Mr. Hall. Very minimal. “What is going on? Are they ready?”
Mr. Hubert. Had any signal arrangement been made between you
as to when to start off, and so forth?
Mr. Hall. Oh, no.
Mr. Hubert. You were simply waiting instructions then as to what
to do?
Mr. Hall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Had you been told as to what route to follow?
Mr. Hall. The policeman got into the cab and briefly said his
understanding was that we would turn left and have an escort and
would probably go on up to Central Express, over to Main, and down
to the county courthouse by the most direct route. I feel that this
was a little conjecture on his part and mine both.
Mr. Hubert. How long after you had stopped in the final position
of the truck did this policeman come and sit next to you?
Mr. Hall. Three to five minutes.
Mr. Hubert. How do you fix that?
Mr. Hall. Strict estimate; it wasn’t immediately. It wasn’t toward
the latter part of the waiting period. It was in the early part of the
waiting period, and I feel that 3 to 5 minutes was a fairly accurate
estimate.
Mr. Hubert. Did you converse with this gentleman?
Mr. Hall. Briefly; we shook hands, smiled at each other, and sat
there.
Mr. Hubert. He stayed there until after the shot was fired?
 Mr. Hall. He stayed in the truck until we pulled over across the
street and until after the ambulance had gone by.
Mr. Hubert. I think you said he was in uniform?
Mr. Hall. Yes; definitely.
Mr. Hubert. Were there any kind of records kept by your company
concerning the movement of the trucks?
Mr. Hall. Normally; yes, sir. This Sunday morning adventure was
such an unusual thing and participated in by two administrators of
the company, that we made no formal truck report as you normally
would when you come in off a run. We made an informal memo
report, I did, and mailed it to our home office in Fort Worth, Monday
morning, describing the situation, just for the file.
Mr. Hubert. Did that report contain any reference to the various
times that we have discussed? For example, today, and particularly
the time of leaving the terminal and returning to the terminal?
Mr. Hall. No; it was just a rough informal memo to Mr. Mastin,
the president of the organization, putting on paper what we had
done.
Mr. Hubert. Was any charge made to the city for this service?
Mr. Hall. No, sir; we were available to the city for emergency
use. Couldn’t very well charge when we don’t accomplish our
mission.
Mr. Hubert. Well, I think that is all I have; sir. I now would like to
ask you this question so the record may be clear. There has been
some informal discussion between you and me since you came in,
but I believe, and I ask you whether you concur in this, that all that
we discussed informally has been again discussed formally in the
sense that it has been recorded?
Mr. Hall. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. All right, sir; I think that is all, and thank you very
much indeed.
 TESTIMONY OF CECIL E. TALBERT
The testimony of Cecil E. Talbert was taken at 10:45 a.m., on
July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D.
Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam
Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, and Dean Robert G.
Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas, were
present.

Mr. Hubert. This is the deposition of Captain Cecil E. Talbert.

Captain Talbert, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the
advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November
29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the
rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in
conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I
have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among
others.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s
inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to
the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent
death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Captain Talbert, the nature of the inquiry
today is to determine what facts you know about the death of
Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the
general inquiry.
 I understand, Captain, that you appear today by virtue of a
general request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general
counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission.
Under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness has
the right to have a 3-day written notice personally directed to him
prior to the taking of his deposition, but the rules also provide that
any witness may waive that 3-day written notice if they wish.
Captain Talbert. I wish to waive.
Mr. Hubert. I will ask you now if you are willing.
Captain Talbert. Please.
Mr. Hubert. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Captain Talbert. I do.
Mr. Hubert. Captain Talbert, you have previously given a
deposition in this matter, which I think was on March 24, 1964, isn’t
that correct?
Captain Talbert. I gave a previous deposition; yes, sir. The date
is correct.
Mr. Hubert. For that reason, I will not make any attempt to take
any information concerning who you are and so forth. I take it you
are still with the police department in the capacity you were when
your deposition was last taken?
Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Now, I want to inquire about a number of matters
that were touched upon, I think, last time concerning which we need
some elaboration, and that is the reason for calling you back. As I
recall the matter, you came on duty on November 24 early in the
morning to relieve Captain Frazier, is that not so?
Captain Talbert. That is true.
 Mr. Hubert. What time, do you remember, did you come on duty?
Captain Talbert. I would have to give you an approximation, sir,
between 6 and 6:15 a.m.
Mr. Hubert. What shift was it that you were coming on?
Captain Talbert. It is referred to as the second platoon, working
days, as it operates from 7 to 3.
Mr. Hubert. But you came on sometime before the actual
beginning?
Captain Talbert. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Captain Frazier was there when you came?
Captain Talbert. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now I understand also that you proceeded to set up
certain security measures in the entire building?
Captain Talbert. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. You did not? What security measures did you begin
to set up in the morning when you got there?
Captain Talbert. Later in the morning at approximately 9 o’clock I
instructed Lieutenant Pierce to get squads in to set up security
measures in the basement.
Mr. Hubert. The basement being referred to as the automotive
drive area and the area where the prisoner, if he were transferred,
would be exposed? That is to say, the basement would be the two
ramps and the parking area, is that correct?
Captain Talbert. Yes, sir; and the approach to the jail.
Mr. Hubert. It is actually below the first floor?
Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. You had not taken any kind of security precautions
prior to that?
 Captain Talbert. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Now what security precautions did you initiate at
about 9 o’clock, you say, on November 24?
Captain Talbert. I instructed Lieutenant Pierce to——
Mr. Hubert. That is Rio Pierce?
Captain Talbert. Yes; Rio Sam Pierce. I instructed him to go over
the detail and pull three squads from each of the three outlying
stations and four from central stations to acquire as many men as
possible by utilizing two-man squads, and search the basement area,
clear it, and then keep it cleared of everything but authorized
personnel.
Mr. Hubert. Now did you do that——
Captain Talbert. By basement area, let me refer back again to
the area that we previously defined.
Mr. Hubert. Did you do that on your own initiative, or were you
directed or requested to do that by anyone?
Captain Talbert. I did it on my own due to the buildup of public
curiosity seekers around the building, as well as the buildup around
the city jail, and traffic conditions in the downtown area on Sunday
were extraordinarily heavy due to the situation that had just
occurred. And I thought that if a transfer were made, then we
should have some precautions to safeguard it, and also to keep from
having chaos in attempting to do it immediately.
Mr. Hubert. Were you aware then that the transfer of Oswald
would be made by utilizing some part of the basement area, or were
you just assuming that it would?
Captain Talbert. Strictly an assumption, sir, and from the fact
that he might not. Transfer was strictly an assumption from the
press, what had been released in the press the day before.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, you did not know at that time that
Oswald would be transferred on Sunday?
 Captain Talbert. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Had you been in contact with any superior prior to
the institution of these security precautions you have just described?
Captain Talbert. I had talked to Chief Curry on the telephone in
the early morning hours just prior to 7, somewhere along there.
Mr. Hubert. I think you have already covered that in your
previous deposition.
Captain Talbert. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Did he at that time direct you to institute any security
precautions?
Captain Talbert. No.
Mr. Hubert. Did you institute any security precautions other than
the ones that you just described concerning the basement?
Captain Talbert. That I described in the previous deposition, or
presently?
Mr. Hubert. No; in the present one.
Captain Talbert. You mean further along in the morning, sir?
Mr. Hubert. Well, no. I was thinking about security precautions in
other areas than the basement at that time.
Captain Talbert. No, sir. I didn’t have the personnel.
Mr. Hubert. Did you take any steps to initiate security precautions
as to other areas than the basement at any time on Sunday?
Captain Talbert. When the crowd began to get heavy, began to
gather on Commerce Street, then on the Commerce Street side we
had had the previous warning from the FBI and an anonymous caller
of a possible mob action, so we moved the civilians from the north
side of Commerce to the south side of Commerce and stationed, or
had Sergeant Steele station some reserve officers out there to
maintain the free sidewalk as well as the surveillance of the ground.
 Mr. Hubert. Was that done at your direction and order?
Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you receive instructions from some person higher
in command than you to do it, or did you do it on your own
initiative?
Captain Talbert. I just saw the necessity of doing it, so I did it on
my own initiative.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever receive from anyone any specific
instructions concerning security precautions other than what you
have mentioned?
Captain Talbert. In reference to the original deposition, I pointed
out in there about the receiving of instructions and transferring the
prisoner from the city jail to the county jail. I received instructions
on this.
Mr. Hubert. From whom?
Captain Talbert. From Chief Lumpkin and Chief Stevenson at the
time they told me about the prisoner being transferred, that he
would be transferred in an armored car.
Mr. Hubert. About what time was that, do you know? I mean the
time that you received that information and these instructions?
Captain Talbert. I was trying to refer to something for a time.
10:30 to 10:45, somewhere in that vicinity. It would have been in
the vicinity of 10:30 or 10:45.
Mr. Hubert. Did you ever receive any other instructions
concerning security from anyone?
Captain Talbert. No, sir. Well, may I qualify that. You mean prior
to Oswald’s shooting?
Mr. Hubert. Yes, sir.
Captain Talbert. No, sir.
 Mr. Hubert. Do you recall whether there were any conversations
concerning the transfer of Oswald?
Captain Talbert. I am sure there were many, but not in my
presence.
Mr. Hubert. What were your instructions to Lieutenant Pierce
regarding the security measures he should take with reference to the
basement area?
Captain Talbert. Clear it and seal it off, or seal it off rather and
then clear it, and search it.
Mr. Hubert. Would you describe what “seal it off” means?
Captain Talbert. Station officers at the entrances or exits and
insure unauthorized personnel not entering the area.
Mr. Hubert. Did you go down to the basement yourself?
Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you examine to see all possible entrances and
direct that the sealing off process cover those possible entrances?
Captain Talbert. May I qualify again, or ask a question? Do you
mean did I direct the actual sealing off?
Mr. Hubert. Yes.
Captain Talbert. No, sir; I did not. I examined it after it had been
sealed off to see if it had been properly done, and in my opinion it
had been.
Mr. Hubert. Now the clearing process consisted of what? The
clearing out or checking whether the building had been sealed, the
basement had been sealed?
Captain Talbert. Clearing all of the civilian employees out. They
had a check. This was done before I went to the basement. But I
was instructed, or not instructed, I mean informed after I went
down to examine it, of the step by step process that had been taken
in checking the news personnel back in, or checking them in the jail
office that were in there.
Mr. Hubert. Well, as I understand it, it was not all cleared out of
everybody and then accredited personnel let in, but rather those
that were in there were checked out to see if they were accredited?
Captain Talbert. Right, sir.
Mr. Hubert. I think the accreditation consisted of their being
authentic news media people?
Captain Talbert. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. Now were you given any instructions to the effect
that news media were to be permitted to remain in the basement?
Captain Talbert. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Was it then your own initiative that news media were
not to be removed from the basement?
Captain Talbert. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. How did that come about?
Captain Talbert. I qualify that in that Sergeant Putnam—as I
recall, Sergeant Putnam—it possibly could have been Sergeant Dean
was present at the time when Chief Curry told the newsmen there
was no point in their setting up their TV cameras and equipment on
the third floor, that the man would come through the jail office of
the basement. I didn’t personally hear it. It was told by him or one
of the other of my superiors that Chief Curry had given them that
information, or permission, if you wish.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, you did not clear the basement of
news media because you understood from Sergeant Putnam or
someone else that he had heard Chief Curry say to the news media
that there was no use in their setting up their equipment on the
third floor since the transfer would be made through the basement?
 Captain Talbert. Yes. They were in the process of setting up their
live television cameras and what-have-you, when he gave them this
information.
Mr. Hubert. Did you check with anyone to see if the news media
would be permitted to remain in the basement?
Captain Talbert. No, sir. May I say——
Mr. Hubert. Sure; go ahead.
Captain Talbert. Could we hold this up just a moment?
Mr. Hubert. Yes; but let me say this, whatever we say off the
record——
Captain Talbert. I can go back on the record. I just want to know
if you want something.
Mr. Hubert. All right, let’s go off the record, with the
understanding that we must put the contents of what you tell me off
the record into it, you see.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Hubert. Let’s go on the record. Why don’t you just state that?
Let’s put it this way. There was a short conversation, the substance
of which will now be covered by Captain Talbert.
Captain Talbert. On my previous deposition it was apparently
stated as a fact that we utilized the existing general order in
following our usual procedure in handling news personnel, and that
is general order No. 81. I have since checked it to make sure that is
the correct general order number, and that general order was
supplemented in 1963 after two incidents in which news personnel
felt they had been held away from their story because of
unnecessary precautions by police officers, and it was quite
adequate as far as assisting them in obtaining their story.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, you were operating under the
provisions of that order No. 81, as amended?
 Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. I have the amendment. I mean I have
No. 81, and I have the additional amendment with me, but I would
rather you get it from the department rather than me.
Mr. Hubert. If you have a copy that could be available, I would
just as soon get it.
Captain Talbert. I was curious enough to make a copy after I
was here before. No. 81 is the top figure, and the bottom is the
amendment. Not the amendment; actually it is an emphasis of No.
81 where it was emphasized it was to be followed, with punitive
measures to be taken if it were not.
Mr. Hubert. In connection with your present deposition, Captain
Talbert, I am going to mark as an exhibit the documents you have
just referred to, as follows: “Dallas Police Department General Order
No. 81 entitled ‘Press Releases’, dated June 15, 1958.” I am marking
that for the purpose of identification as “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964,
Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Captain C. E. Talbert,” signing my name
below that, consisting of really about a third of the page. And the
second document you have handed me is a photostatic copy of a
long memo dated February 7, 1963, addressed to all members of the
department, apparently signed by Chief of Police J. E. Curry, that I
am marking as follows, for identification: “Dallas, Texas, July 13,
1964, Exhibit No. 2, deposition of Captain C. E. Talbert”, and I am
signing my name below that exhibit. Now Exhibit No. 1 and Exhibit
No. 2 are the police directives or orders that you were referring to a
moment ago?
Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recall any conversations you had with Chief
Batchelor or Chief Curry or Deputy Chief Stevenson?
Captain Talbert. Yes, sir; to some extent.
Mr. Hubert. Will you tell us about what they were?
Captain Talbert. Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin wanted to
go to the third floor for a cup of coffee, ostensibly. I assume that the
true purpose was to tell me about the armored car transfer. And
instead, I took them to the second floor to my sergeant’s room, or
conference room where we had a pot of coffee made, and while we
were drinking coffee there they told me that the transfer would be
made, that it would be made in an armored car, and wanted me to
have a man or two men available on the Commerce Street side to
assist the driver of the armored car in backing in. At that time they
were concerned about the height of the armored car.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know about what time that was, sir?
Captain Talbert. Again, I am going to give you an approximation
of 10:30 to 10:45.
Mr. Hubert. That conversation on the second floor was with Chief
Batchelor?
Captain Talbert. No, sir; Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. Hubert. And Lumpkin?
Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you have any conversations with Chief Batchelor
or Chief Curry at that time?
Captain Talbert. Not with Chief Curry. When Chief Batchelor
came to the basement, we had quite a few commentaries on various
parts of security, but verbatim, I can’t recall what they were.
Mr. Hubert. What was the general nature?
Captain Talbert. He was checking what we had done there. Chief
Batchelor came into the basement parking area, the one we had
sealed off, and had checked it, or was checking it, in the process of
checking it, and in checking it we had some brief conversation. We
moved two cars out on the Commerce Street side prior to the arrival
of the armored car, and he moved his car, and I believe Chief Curry’s
car; had them moved out, I should say. I didn’t move them myself.
Mr. Hubert. Where were they?
 Captain Talbert. They were parked in the basement.
Mr. Hubert. Where?
Captain Talbert. I don’t recall, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Weren’t they by the railing?
Captain Talbert. Oh, I am sorry, they were always parked in the
same place, so I am sure they were there. As you turn into the
drive, or rather from the drive into the parking area, the chief’s car is
always parked to the right or on the south side of the drive.
Mr. Hubert. In other words, the cars were removed from the
space that the cameras were ultimately placed?
Captain Talbert. No, sir; they would have been on the opposite
side.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember the removal of the cars that were
in the spaces ultimately and later occupied by the TV cameras?
Captain Talbert. The TV cameras were the ones that were set up
as permanent installations. They were already set up, and there
were no cars there when I arrived in the basement.
Mr. Hubert. That was at what time?
Captain Talbert. Again an approximation of 10 o’clock; in the
vicinity of 10.
Mr. Hubert. You did not give orders for the clearing of that space
of automobiles so that the cameras could occupy that space?
Captain Talbert. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know who did give such orders?
Captain Talbert. No, sir; I don’t know that they were given.
Mr. Hubert. Do you know of any orders to the effect that the
news media were to be kept behind the railing? That is to say, on
the east side of the railing that divided the ramp from the garage
area?
 Captain Talbert. No, sir. Although I was in and out of the
basement, it might have occurred, but it didn’t occur while I was in
the basement. Now Chief Batchelor did rearrange the news media, I
think, on two different times. He was trying to arrange them in a
better situation for us.
Mr. Hubert. Did you observe that?
Captain Talbert. No, sir; I wasn’t in the basement when either
move was made. May I inject here that I was operating a patrol
platoon, and this was extracurricular.
Mr. Hubert. What you say is that you believe, or have learned
that Chief Batchelor made two efforts, to your knowledge, to change
the press position?
Captain Talbert. I have been told that; yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Do you remember a conversation by telephone that
you had with Lieutenant Pierce at Parkland Hospital after the
shooting of Oswald?
Captain Talbert. Not with Lieutenant Pierce; no, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you have any with anyone else?
Captain Talbert. I had several conversations from Parkland
Hospital on the telephone after the shooting of Oswald.
Mr. Hubert. Would you tell us about them, please?
Captain Talbert. Well, I was at Parkland to clear the hospital and
make sure that the chaos or confusion didn’t transmit into the
hospital itself, and also secure the area where the prisoner was
being operated on. And the Governor was there. There was a
peculiar situation in that he was on the same floor in close proximity
to the operating room where Oswald was being operated on. I was
trying to get all the confusion away from the room he was in. He
was in the intensive care room. As soon as personnel was placed, I
started making telephone calls trying to check to find out how the
fellow got in the basement, the fellow being referred to, of course,
as Ruby. And I don’t recall a specific conversation with Lieutenant
Pierce, although I am sure I did talk to him.
Mr. Hubert. Do you recall anyone else you spoke to?
Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Who would that be?
Captain Talbert. I spoke to R. E. Vaughn. I spoke to Nelson. I
spoke to, I believe, now let me see, I think I got a hold of Jez who
was on the Commerce Street entrance. I was contacting the men on
the various entrances to see how it could have happened, how he
could have got in there. Is there such a thing as my correcting an
error I made in my first deposition here?
Mr. Hubert. Certainly; absolutely.
Captain Talbert. I said in my first deposition, and I recall that
after leaving, after my conversation with Chief Curry on the
telephone that morning, I didn’t talk to him again that day. And for
some reason or other, I overlooked the fact that I did talk to him
from the hospital. I talked to him twice, possibly three times. I called
him, or rather was called by him at the hospital to find out what the
condition of Oswald, the existing condition was, and then I called
him back sometime during the middle of the operation when I got a
report on it, and called back again to tell him the time of Oswald’s
death immediately after his death.
Mr. Hubert. Did you speak to him about how the security had
broken down during any of those three conversations?
Captain Talbert. No, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you see Patrick Dean, Sergeant Dean at
Parkland?
Captain Talbert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert. Did you speak to him?
 Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, he had assigned
some of the men out there.
Mr. Hubert. Did he say anything to you about what Ruby had told
him as to how he had gotten into the basement?
Captain Talbert. Yes, sir. That was the first information that I had
received on how Ruby said he got into the basement, was from
Dean.
Mr. Hubert. I think you said that you spoke to Vaughn and Jez
who were respectively at the Main Street and Commerce Street
entrances?
Captain Talbert. Yes.
Mr. Hubert. When you spoke to Dean, was that before or after
you had spoken to Vaughn?
Captain Talbert. As I recall my contact—I had many contacts
with Vaughn regarding, as you may well know, and as I recall that
contact, it was after, because I was being rather dogmatic about
who was around that entrance with Vaughn at the time. As I recall
it, I may be in error here, it might have been after. I mean, it might
have been prior to my contact with Dean, and then subsequent
contact with Vaughn.
Mr. Hubert. When you first talked to Vaughn, let’s put it this way,
did you know that Ruby claimed to have come through the entrance
that Vaughn was guarding?
Captain Talbert. I would like to answer you positively, Mr. Hubert,
but I can’t. It was the first or second contact. It possibly was the
second, but I think it was the first. I believe it was the first.
Mr. Hubert. Well, the conversation you had with Dean where he
told you what Ruby had said about how he entered, was at the
hospital site?
Captain Talbert. Verbatim, you mean?
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