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Dutch spy services have restricted intelligence-sharing with the United States (intelnews.org)
122 points by Refreeze5224 1 hour ago | hide | past | favorite | 40 comments
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michelb 56 minutes ago | next [–]
The USA probably doesn't worry much, our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and Microsoft
Office/Azure. All internet access flows through the same cable the NSA has access to. Radio traffic is intercepted in multiple
locations in The Netherlands.
So sure, there are probably some signals the USA won't receive, but they still get the bulk of it.
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jeroenhd 40 minutes ago | parent | next [–]
Don't underestimate the AIVD/MIVD. They have quite the history infiltrating Russian networks and operations and
operate a rather useful satellite listening post.
That said, the current American administration probably doesn't see Russia as a threat.
America has always been spying on Europe, making it a bit harder by not willingly providing intel is a step in the right
direction at least.
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netsharc 25 minutes ago | root | parent | next [–]
It'd be risky if Russia-friendly folks start telling Moscow the intelligence that the Dutch gathered, and some of
the current American administration seem very Russia-friendly..
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crote 44 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [–]
> our Dutch government and related services all run on AWS and Microsoft Office/Azure
And this is already being criticized over and over again. With various German government organizations now actively
moving away from Microsoft and demonstrating that you don't need Outlook & Office 365 to run a government, I
would be quite surprised if the possibility of doing the same here won't at least be discussed any time something
needs an overhaul.
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jeroenhd 38 minutes ago | root | parent | next [–]
As with every large Microsoft migration, the problem isn't figuring out what's necessary to run a government.
People in high places only know Microsoft and they don't want to risk having to learn something new. National
security isn't as big of a deal as having to spend a few afternoons of training, after all.
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crote 32 minutes ago | root | parent | next [–]
People in high places have assistants to operate Word for them. If anything, the money Microsoft pours
into lobbying is a bigger threat to gaining independence - the killing of the LiMux project[0] made that
quite obvious.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux
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jll29 29 minutes ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]
It's easy enough to wrap some open source software in GUIs that closely resemble proprietary software
(cf. LibreOffice as an example).
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paganel 4 minutes ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]
That won't ever happen at a large enough scale in Germany itself because of the Ramstein military base (and
other such US military bases located on German soil). Playing "we're independent!" it's just a futile game as
long as the military US presence in Germany is an ongoing thing.
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lovich 1 minute ago | root | parent | next [–]
Well if you were ever planning on evicting those bases you’d probably want to start by getting off of other
infrastructure controlled by the owner of said bases, right?
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MiiMe19 2 minutes ago | prev | next [–]
Am I the only one that doesn't really think of most of Europe as an ally anymore? If it wasn't for shared opposition to Russia
and China I would support us cutting most of these ties anyways.
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IT4MD 21 minutes ago | prev | next [–]
Smart move.
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lenerdenator 33 minutes ago | prev | next [–]
Everything's for sale. The Dutch were still buying natural gas from Russia as late as 2020 [0] despite 6 years of irregular
warfare in the Donbas at that point and 12 years of South Ossetia in Georgia. Hell, they still might be through some sort of
third-party reseller.
Compared to the early years of the Donbas invasion, having a leader full of hot air is small potatoes.
There's always room for spies to get what they want. It's just a matter of what that will be.
[0] https://www.gasunie.nl/en/gas-infrastructure/blog-247-energy...
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crote 15 minutes ago | parent | next [–]
The main reason for the Dutch dependence on Russian gas is the rapid shutdown of the Slochteren field for political
reasons[0], while there weren't yet any LNG terminals available to import it from outside Europe. Considering Europe
didn't yet view Russia as a genuine threat it's not exactly surprising that importing Russian gas was seen as a viable
short-term strategy.
[0]: The Slochteren field still has plenty of gas remaining. It was shut down due to pushback from the inhabitants of
Groningen, whose houses were being destroyed by earthquakes - caused by soil subsidence as a result of gas
extraction. If there were to have been a serious war with Russia at that point, The Netherlands could've trivially shut
off all gas imports by scaling the extraction back up.
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fmajid 2 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [–]
Not to mention the downing of MH17, with 193 Dutch citizens aboard, by the Russians in 2016.
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jacquesm 1 hour ago | prev | next [–]
The current dutch (demissionary) PM is the former head of the Dutch intelligence services. To say that Trump isn't trusted by
EU intelligence services would be a vast understatement.
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michelb 55 minutes ago | parent | next [–]
Well, that's the same guy that planted Palantir in the Dutch government, since 2011.
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jacquesm 48 minutes ago | root | parent | next [–]
Yes, so?
Indeed, that wasn't a great decision. But... there is a serious lack of alternatives that makes it very hard to get
around the United States and Israel when it comes to this kind of software. Of course the Dutch should have
rolled their own but give that we can't even get our tax software sorted out (I think they've been at it for 30
years), had our digital notary services hacked and a number of other noteworthy items I think that maybe 'buy'
instead of 'build' was the right decision.
It's very tricky, I would definitely not be able to claim that in his shoes I would have done better. As a prime
minister he's done a fair job given the absolutely impossible situation in our government right now, and this
decision is one of those where at least he's willing to make a stand (unlike many other EU countries).
This level of governing is always going to be an exercise in endless compromises.
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XorNot 2 minutes ago | root | parent | prev | next [–]
Palantir might be an American company, but if you hire them it's not like a bunch of Americans come and take
over your IT systems. There entire business model is "forward deployed engineers" who by necessity are locals
and come help setup things on your own infrastructure.
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aa_is_op 11 minutes ago | prev | next [–]
Well... taking into account that Trump was screaming and swearing at Zelenskyy to surrender to Russia or Putin will destroy
Ukraine just yesterday... I don't see why the Dutch would stop sharing intel with the US
</sarcasm>
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howmayiannoyyou 49 minutes ago | prev | next [–]
Tensions in Venezuela and Dutch interests in the Caribbean. That's the explanation and its public posturing that likely doesn't
reflect reality.
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crote 37 minutes ago | parent | next [–]
The Dutch governments haven't exactly shown a lot of interest into their Caribbean links over the last few decades.
The actions of the US regarding Venezuela are barely getting mentioned in the Dutch news, and the physical proximity
to Aruba/Bonaire/Curacao is not even mentioned in passing.
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josefritzishere 1 hour ago | prev | next [–]
I think we all know whose fault that is.
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stronglikedan 1 hour ago | parent | next [6 more]
Covzire 1 hour ago | prev | next [11 more]
OutOfHere 1 hour ago | prev [–]
It would be glorious to see Five Eyes fall apart, but that is much bigger ask. Canada would be wise to kick it off before the US
annexes it.
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psunavy03 43 minutes ago | parent | next [–]
Because what we all need is to see the Ministry of State Security be the most capable intelligence agency in the world
. . . wait, no we don't.
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micromacrofoot 32 minutes ago | parent | prev [–]
five eyes falling apart now seems like a "be careful what you wish for" situation where we'd start losing long-held
alliances?
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